'Stokes will return as captain' - McCullum

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

Take the leash off your laptop with the processor that gives you long battery life. Work on the go, jump between back-to-back calls, stay locked in from brewing morning coffee to burning the midnight oil. Get maximum performance even when unplugged. Finally, the freedom to move across the room or across the world is here. Snapdragon. That's how. Formula 1 is all about precision, tiny margins, massive ambition, flat-out performance. And that's exactly why it's exciting to see Cadillac entering Formula 1, bringing an American luxury brand with performance pedigree onto the biggest stage in motorsport. But this isn't just about the grid. That same racing mindset, the obsession with engineering, the pursuit of perfection, lives in the Cadillac V-Series lineup. Giving you the chance to experience the precision and performance of the grid on the open road. Cadillac V-Series: distinctive luxury performance, engineered to thrill. Discover the V-Series lineup at cadillac.com.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Well, welcome to the pitch at the Oval where England have been beaten by New Zealand by 200. And 53 runs. Matt Henry took 6 for 29 to bowl England out and level the series. Well, I'm alongside Michael Vaughan, Sir Alistair Cooke, and Jeremy Coney, and we'll start by chatting with Joe Root. Well, Joe, first of all, congratulations on your 14,000 runs. That's a wonderful milestone.

Thanks. Um, yeah, it's just disappointing that we've, you know, we find ourselves on the wrong side of the result, um, but That's— yeah, that's how it sits really. Unfortunately—

You won't let that spoil your achievement though, surely? Not the 14,000, that's a career.

Yeah, I mean, but they're never really your runs, are they? You're scoring them for a purpose, right? You're trying to win games of cricket, so from that perspective, slightly disappointing, but clearly it's come from a lot of hard work over a long time.

Yeah, it has, and well played.

Thanks.

Okay, so this match, how do you look back at this? I mean, it's been a pretty crazy 10 days, really.

It has, and you know, there has been, without sounding too— sorry, too sort of cliché, there has been a lot of good things in between some pretty ordinary stuff as well. You know, when you miss 8 to 10 chances in the field against a good team on a reasonably good wicket, you're going to be playing catch-up for a long part of it. And, you know, we've got 4 fourth changes coming into the game. It's going to be slightly unsettling in some areas. But that being said, the guys that came in, they gave absolutely everything. They did some really good stuff. And I think we just got to make sure we're good enough to do it for longer periods of time. Got to make sure we're really engaged in the field and ready to take those opportunities, want to make things happen. But you know, those guys, their first exposure to Test cricket, the guys in particular right at the front of their career, I think have done some good things and hopefully can take a lot from it moving forward into the rest of their careers.

Yeah, it'll do them good to at least play it.

Yeah, and the team as well in terms of having depth and giving them that exposure. I think normally when guys come into the team, it's normally one at a time, and you know, they're helped through from seniority and guys around them. This week's been quite different with the circumstances in which things have unfolded and happened. And off the back of that, the guys, I think, gave a really good case for themselves, really. That's all you can really ask of players, is to come in and give everything, and they definitely did that. But you also got to give credit to New Zealand. I think the way that Phillips played in particular the night of day— was day 1, wasn't it, right?

Yeah.

That spell from Joffrey, you know, we wanted to make that, take that wicket that night. Joffrey on a roll, full of confidence, bowling with great pace. You break the game open there and it's a very different concept. You come back the next morning with a tail to bowl at. And credit to him, I thought he played brilliantly. Same with Nicholls in the second innings. And our batters have got to learn. I think it's an opportunity for our batting group to learn from that. Reading those situations, the way that they played those different moments, and, you know, and recognizing the tempo of Test cricket can change. And I think that's where our evolution's got to come, you know, further down the line, is can we recognize moments in games like that, sometimes play within ourselves, or just manage the situation really well and reap the rewards off it later down the line.

I'm being cut short here, Joe, so I'm going to have to ask you what about the last week and what it's been like behind the scenes, really. I mean, no one's really known what's been going on. What's it been like for you to have to step in to be captain at such short notice?

You know, I've really enjoyed this week. I know the result's not been great and not what we set out to do, but I've thoroughly enjoyed working with Baz and stepping back into that space, getting an opportunity to work with some young players, some new players, and being a part of what's a very special week for a couple of debutants as well. So as I say, it's disappointing to be on the end of the result that we have, but it's been a lot of fun and we still very much a lot to play for in this series. 1-1.

Yeah.

And, you know, a lot can happen in the next couple of days, so we'll see where we land when we get to Trent Bridge.

Well played, Joe. Thanks for talking to us, appreciate it. Okay, we're a bit cut short there because presentations are still taking place, but so I'd like to dig a little bit deeper into Joe, but actually he was being pretty positive about the younger players and so on. I mean, he spoke, you know, like a spokesman, I suppose, possibly with the release he probably hasn't got to do it anymore, Michael.

Let's wait and see what happens. But he's got to speak those kind of words. I mean, young team, 5 changes, 3 debutants, wasn't going to be easy. But the one thing I'll say is that, you know, you go back to Australia in the winter. Australia had a lot of kind of toing and froing with selection. They managed to cope. New Zealand this week lost arguably their greatest player in Kane Williamson. Henry Nicholls steps up and gets 100. You know, the way that England select their teams in recent times, you know, they throw in people and players that don't have the foundation of their game and knowledge because they haven't played a great deal of cricket. So they go on the hunch. I was talking about it pre-show. You know, they talk about players' ceiling, high ceilings, and I get that. But, you know, I always think that you've got to get players to a level first, a bit closer to that ceiling. And, you know, one or two this week showed some promise. I like the look of Jordan Cox.

Yeah.

I don't think you've seen the best of James Roo at all behind the stumps. But I've seen enough of his batting to suggest that he could come again as a batter. Sonny Baker, obviously a young quick bowler, that where he lands, he needs to get a bit closer to the crease to give himself an extra yard. That's something that he can iron out. But, you know, when we have a bit of chaos in English cricket, which we have, it never surprises me when we see a performance like that.

Yeah, and it's kind of, I suppose, Alistair, the likely way that the week would end. If there's lots of distractions going off, you can come out, you can talk a sensible, calm game, can't you? But you know, the stuff that's been happening these last 10 days, especially involving the captain of the team.

Absolutely. Chaos off the pitch normally translates to chaos on the pitch. The side they picked, am I surprised here? I said in my column actually, in the paper, it's like, Sides take a while, and players take a while to be built. You know, James Anderson, I keep going back, wasn't the finished article when he first played.

No.

And you take, you learn so much before you become, you know, a great player or a player who can deal with the conditions. You're looking at sides, you want sides of 40, 50 caps. You know, 7 or 8 of those members of the side to have 30, 40, 50 caps at least. And then you think, yeah, that's a good solid side. Who played a lot of conditions, gone through the ups and downs themselves, and the side's gone through the ups and downs as a group. And then, you know, then you get some really consistent results. And so a bowling attack of, you know, 1, 2, 19 caps, I think is the highest. Joe Root, the leading wicket-taker. It makes no surprise that they haven't performed brilliantly this week. And we keep talking about the bowlers, but fundamentally this England side haven't scored enough runs for quite a long period of time consistently. They don't bat long enough for Test match cricket. Back at the beginning of Bazball where they scored at 5 runs an over and they tried to change a little bit, batting that short period worked for a little bit, but that was— we knew it was only ever going to be a short period of time that works before people work him out and they've spoken about that. So 290 in the first innings wasn't enough on a really good batting wicket and you're forever playing catch-up. You talk more about the bowlers for some reason in that situation, but you're kind of paying the price. Yeah. For the not scoring enough runs because it's such a cumulative effect.

I am going to get to speak to Brendan McCullum. I don't know when, but he is on the list that we're going to have. I can't see him at the moment, but perhaps up there in the dressing room. So I can see Jeremy Coney though. In fact, I can see Matt Henry coming as well, which is even more exciting than actually seeing you, Jeremy. So I'll come back to you in a minute. Well, Matt Henry, you've got a very nice mag there. Well bowled. What a performance that is. Best ever by a New Zealander against England.

Oh, thanks very much. Yeah, no, it was just great to obviously get the job done today. We've got a quick turnaround, so yeah, just great to obviously get the win first and foremost. And probably for a few of the big boys not to start their engine today was pretty key.

Yeah, absolutely. Have you done much of that bowling with the keeper up, or is it just something that you've looked at Brook and Root and thought, well, that's an interesting tactic we'll try?

We tried it. There was a couple times when England came back at the Basin. Would have been 2 or 3 years ago maybe. We knew that Tommy was keen as well, was bouncing all over the show and he was absolutely loving it. But it was just a ploy we took there. Me and Tim were talking about maybe just trying to get guys caught in their crease, just them to fly a run. So we've kind of had it in the back of the mind probably since then. And then when we got out here, it was just trying to be effective, right? And I think we found pretty quickly with the probably not as much bounce, it's like, well, how do you keep the stumps in play and still breaking the rhythm up. I think we were applying different tactics from both ends, which allowed us to probably just break a little bit of rhythm and stem the flow of runs. And yeah, thankfully wickets fell.

Yeah, well, no, thankfully you bowled beautifully. You lose Kane Williamson, two others stand up and score hundreds. I mean, that's kind of— there's a lot about New Zealand cricket in that somehow, you know, just you relish that sort of challenge.

Yeah, I mean, I'm just stuck. Well, obviously you lose someone like Kane, one of the One of our greatest ever players. It's always going to leave a hole in his leadership and his presence in the shed as well. But like you said, to have someone experienced like Henry Nicholl, who's just been phenomenal for a number of years, even throughout his Test career as well, it's just great to have him in the side. And I think he showed it not just with his runs, but even the first innings, the way he blunted the new ball and allowed things to unfold for that middle order. We know how dangerous that new ball is with Joff and their attack. Back. So probably don't get the rewards for the first innings, but definitely made up for it in the second, which is great.

Yeah, a bit of chaos amongst the opposition. Have you been aware of that? You kind of cashed in on it, do you think?

I don't know what you're talking about. I haven't heard anything.

Behave. No, so I mean, there's quite a bit of uncertainty. I mean, do you expect to see Ben Stokes at Trent Bridge?

Oh look, that's not really probably our focus at all, but it didn't change the way we prepared because I suppose a lot of us have played county cricket as well and have played David Ruhee is an unbelievable player and a great talent, so it was definitely not taken lightly. The guys that came in, Fisher as well, they've been so strong in the county game, and England have a lot of depth as well. So for us, it was more just staying on task and what we can do and how do we become a threat on this wicket. And especially with the ball and the batters, it was nice for them probably to get some runs after what happened last week.

Yeah, well, it's a terrific performance, Matt. Thank you. And yeah, look forward to seeing you at Trembridge. Cheers, bye. Thank you, uh, Matt Henry. 11 wickets, uh, in the game, finished things off very quickly today, uh, bowled absolutely beautifully. And, uh, nice to see him chatting away here, being quite diplomatic, uh, as well, as far as the pressure fit was concerned. But a magnificent bowler, isn't he? I mean, he's just really sort of, you know, cut his cloth there, if you like, to be really effective.

Well, you— I'm going back to the point I made just before he spoke. When we first saw Matt Henry, I think it might have been too 2015. Yeah, bowled a lot quicker, you know, trying to knock your head off, try to swing. Actually, you didn't— I think you did get me out. I think he might be— I might have been his first Test wicket, but I don't know. I, I— something's telling me it is, but maybe his first wicket in England. But, you know, a very different bowler to what he is now. He's learned his game, he's learned Test cricket, he's learned— probably has dropped his pace a little bit and became a far better bowler. That is the progression you see. And, and he was brilliant, an absolute standout performer in the game. And the key moment of those, Brook and Root in the first innings went 170 for 3. He comes in, new plan, keeper up, executed brilliantly. He's superb. And 11 wickets on a— not a, you know, by no means a featherbed, but you still say that pitch was better for batting than it was bowling. So to get his figures, extraordinary.

Yeah.

And do Joe Root and Harry Brook have this issue about the keeper standing up? I mean, something they've got to go away and think about. I'm just seeing Brendan McCullum coming down the stairs actually. So It might be that we'll get him in a second, but do they have a problem? They've got to work at it.

I would say Harry Brook has not an issue. I would say the bloke still averages 55 and still scored a 50, but it's certainly an area which we'll see player sides go for. I think, is it 3 times or twice he's been out of the keeper, Sunny? And they've done it a fair bit in other times. Joe Root, he will find the solution to it, you know.

Here comes Baz. Okay.

You're welcome.

It's sweltering. We've got the umbrella up here, and I'm afraid this is for my bald head, my bald head, Brendon, more than anything else. But, well, that was quite a performance, wasn't it? I mean, by New Zealand. They fought back very strongly.

Very strongly. I thought they were outstanding in all aspects of the game. Obviously, we weren't at our best, and You know, when you're not at your best, when you drop 10 catches, you're always going to be behind the 8-ball against a good New Zealand side. I thought they executed their plans brilliantly. They were relentless on the lengths that they need to hit on the surface, which I thought was a very good cricket surface as well. And they put us under a lot of pressure, and in the end, we sit here 1-1. But we've got some optimism about what we can do next week.

Yeah, I mean, so little experience in your side. How, in your mind, do the debutants particularly fair?

I guess, you know, 5 of our guys have played 2 Test matches between them, so you know there's a risk when you come into a Test, but circumstances demanded it. And, you know, in the end, you've got to— we headed into the game with confidence and calmness, and I felt that we were ready for what was going to be thrown at us. Sometimes you've got to acknowledge that there is a step up from where we've been to this level, and It's not necessarily batting, bowling, and fielding in terms of skills itself. It's dealing with everything around international cricket. It's, are you able to sort of understand the nuances of the game? Are you able to pick up on what's required on a certain surface and adapt? And I think, you know, when you put under the pressure that you are at international level, sometimes that can just— it can have an effect on guys' ability to execute. And, you know, overall they'll be better for the run, those guys, and And we make no excuses. We came here still confident that we're going to be able to put in a performance, but we were outplayed.

Well, here we are, 2 weeks after Lord's, Brendon. Are you able to shed some light on what has happened since then? Here we are standing here now. What's happened?

Lots.

Lots happened.

Well, can you shed some light on it?

Yeah, well, obviously we've had, you know, we had a really good performance at Lord's, and I thought we showed some real progress from from where we were 6 months ago and what we were trying to achieve. And then we had a blip off the field, which has been an unwelcome distraction for all involved. And we've had to obviously pivot somewhat around the team that we're gonna— that we're putting out there. And in the end, we've— we haven't been able to play the type of cricket we wanted. But look, we're hopeful that we're working through that process and we'll get to a stage that when we arrive at Trent Bridge, we'll be able to pick from the full squad and we'll be able to go about putting out a better performance than what we have in this Test match.

The blip off the field, is that down to a misunderstanding, do you think, as things have moved on over the last fortnight, or is there still an issue there?

Oh, look, I think everyone acknowledges that that wasn't ideal. What's unfolded wasn't ideal. It would have been great. Leading into this Test match, we were talking about the performance performance at Lord's, but unfortunately that wasn't the case. And I will say that the guys, they did their absolute best to try and block all that out and just focus on trying to get the job done. And it would have been great to have been able to be successful this week, but we weren't able to be. But I don't necessarily think it was because of those distractions, it was just we ran into a very good New Zealand side.

Stokes and Atkinson have been taken out of their county game, so presumably that means that they're going to be playing at Trent Bridge.

Look, we're anticipating that they'll be available for selection. We'll get the squad out later on, but It's a quick turnaround to the next one, and obviously you've got those decisions and discussions to have, but I would anticipate that they'll be in that squad, yes.

And is Ben Duckett captain again?

Yeah, I'd assume so, yeah, that's what we're looking at at the moment. Look, it is what it is, right? We've dealt with it, or the process is underway, and once we get to Trent Bridge, our focus will be on making sure that we're able to get a collective unit together together and make sure we drill down on our tactics and we execute better than what we have in this Test match.

Yeah, and I suppose collective is the word, is it? I mean, are you and Ben and Rob Key able to kind of come back together and work together after all of this?

Yeah, I think so. I think I've been speaking to Ben every day since, obviously, the incident unfolded, and I know Keyes has been up to see him this week as well. And you know, you're just trying to make sure that you're very communicative right throughout. We've all got the same ambition, which is to make English cricket a very good team and to try and achieve results on the field, and that hasn't changed.

Yeah, and it all started as a reset, this series, isn't it? I mean, do you feel that you're kind of doing a— you're resetting the reset when we get to Trent Bridge?

Well, you've always got to navigate through certain things, and this is just another example. And, you know, we'll let this one land a little bit, and then we'll start to plot and plan our way towards Trent Bridge. We've got an opportunity to win a series against a very good New Zealand side, and And I think so far it's been an exciting Test series. The game at Lord's was very different. This one here came down to how well you executed and how relentless you were. And when we get to Trent Bridge, you'll ask different questions of both teams. So it's all to play for. And that's the exciting aspect. We'll all start talking about cricket.

Exactly. I hope I'll be asking you different questions then too. Thanks for coming out, Brandon.

Thanks.

Really appreciate it. There we are.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Take the leash off your laptop with the processor that gives you long battery life. Work on the go, jump between back-to-back calls, stay locked in from brewing morning coffee to burning the midnight oil. Get maximum performance even when unplugged. Finally, the freedom to move across the room or across the world is here. Snapdragon.

That's how. What do Beatles member Sir Paul McCartney—

YouTube megastar MrBeast—

And former Facebook executive Sheryl Sandberg all have in common?

They're all being discussed in the new season of Good Bad Billionaire, the podcast which explores the lives and fortunes of the world's super-rich.

That's Good Bad Billionaire from the BBC World Service.

Listen now.

Search for Good Bad Billionaire wherever you get your BBC podcasts.

Right, okay, well let's pick the bones out of that, shall we? So Ben Stokes is back, Ackerson's back, and Ben Becker's captain, and it was a blip.

Right, yeah, I think there's more to come from that story. We don't know the fundamental of everything that's gone on behind the scenes, but there's been so many legs added to the story which has been difficult. No doubt they would say that it's it's not affected the team, but I would say it probably has over the course of 4 or 5 days. It's bound to with a young and inexperienced team, but New Zealand were outstanding. The skipper's there.

Here's a happy man. Look at that, rather big smile. Well done, Tom. Well, you must be absolutely thrilled with that.

Yeah, a fantastic performance all week. Sort of spoke last week about us just trying to be a little bit better for longer, and, you know, I thought we did that fantastically well this week. I guess you look back, you know, post-match, you sort of see moments in games, and I thought we managed to, I guess, win those crucial moments and kind of just put our nose in front of the game. And yeah, I guess to be in the position we were yesterday, 460 odd or whatever it was ahead, and then I think the way we started with the ball was outstandingly well. And I guess when you got two world-class batsmen, number 1 and 2 in the world, yeah, I guess you always sort of sit on the edge a little bit. But I guess the way our guys were able to stick in there again for long periods of time and managed to get the results was outstanding.

Yeah, and to come back from Lord's, a bit of a horror story, but you did park it, you clearly did get rid of it, and then a bit of a break in between to come back and play that level of cricket was really pleasing.

Yeah, and I think the biggest thing for us was just kind of trusting where we were, and we obviously understand that, you know, conditions were probably at the extreme last week at Lord's and didn't necessarily reflect the way that we played. So just kind of bringing it back to the things that we do well, and, you know, for us it was a little bit old school school test cricket this week in terms of being able to do things for long periods of time, especially with the ball. You know, the wicket didn't necessarily offer heaps from a pace point of view, but to be able to, I guess, hone in on the off stump, you know, bring the stumps into play and sort of work out your mode of dismissal. And I thought the bowlers executed fantastically well.

Yeah, well, you're a lucky man. You've got a great attack, haven't you?

Yeah, yeah, we do. I think sort of kind of a well-balanced attack in terms of what we have, a little bit of height, you know, guys that can move the ball in the air off the wicket. So, you know, the guys have been really, really— they've done a great job the last couple of weeks. You know, it's important we sort of rest up, and we always know when playing, and there's always some great series ahead, and, you know, the series is going to be no different.

Yeah, well, it sounds like you've got Ben Stokes back for a start. So, I mean, I don't know if you've been following stuff off the field, have you, or not?

No, no, no, certainly been focused.

I bet you have.

No, no, focused on this week, and yeah, obviously Again, well, whatever happens, happens.

Yeah, well, enjoy it, Tom. Thank you for talking to us, and many congratulations. Really good win. 1-1, we'll see you there.

There we are.

And he is a lucky captain to have an attack like that, isn't he? I mean, you two, both of you, um, you know, to have that, you can look, you know, unleash. It's fantastic.

Well, I thought he always says that about his captain. See, when you, you speak to him, he said, what, what made you such a good captain? He said the bowlers he had. And in particular, when I was captain, the bowlers I could call upon, they win your games. That was a fantastically all-round— they've got a really rounded bowling attack, haven't they? They can do lots of different options without a world-class spinner, but really their seam attack covers everything, and they were impressive. And, you know, Amelia Gay summed it up really well, didn't she, I think on day 1 or day 2 when it was said, it was just like, they keep coming at me, they're relentless, didn't know really where to go. Yes, she played 950, and said the difference and that was his difference between Can cricket and Test cricket. The less number of freebies, and they show. And they just, in terms of when you watch them, they just keep on going. They do know their job from there. But they probably take a game, taken a while to get to that kind of point. But yeah, they're a good bowling attack.

Come on then, Jeremy, you've seen lots of New Zealand cricket over the years. I wonder where that victory stands for you.

Well, it's a win. That's what we like. And it's the 7th one here. In the UK, which is, which, you know, is a long, long time since we've been coming here, Jonathan. 1927, our first tour.

Yeah.

So a lot of good cricketers have come here and have gone back rather disappointed. So this lot haven't. They've still got a job to do, but they've evened it up at this stage with a good performance, I think. Solid performance. They're here without Duffy, who's probably another component in the in the seam attack and who can bowl long resilient spells. So he's not here. So in that case, you add to these guys and say, well done. They— I mean, Henry's pitch here today, and he was able to bring the stumps in. He's got the guy standing up behind him, Blundell. They form a nice partnership together. People just seem uncomfortable to get forward to it. And he wasn't bowling extremely fast. But just nipped it, nipped it. And of course, that then the one that's straight comes into play, and that caused the Brook dismissal, didn't it? And he nicked it, it didn't come in. So it was, uh, but even in the batting, it's a solid performance in the batting. 390, maybe gifted a few runs on the second morning, and they got away on England a bit, but partnerships right throughout. If you look at 30s and 40s and 50s and then the 100s coming from Phillips. The 200s in the match come from New Zealand. So all those things are pointing to one side playing a little better than the other. Sure.

Lots of character, not flashy. It's kind of typical New Zealand cricket, really.

It does. Absolutely, it is. It's do your job, do your job well, and when you sit down in the evening, enjoy your mates. It's very simple but very basic, and it's very— it wins games.

Yeah, and people were worried about us. I suppose missing Kane Williamson, but hey—

Nickolls did okay, didn't he?

Absolutely.

So that was good. So no, they will feel a lot more confident going after a pretty tough test at Lord's, I think, for all the players, both sides. They will now head off to Trent Bridge and they'll feel much more confident about it.

We'll see you there, Jeremy. Thanks for your company over the last week, of course.

Thank you.

There we go. We'll catch you there. A few more words maybe on where England go from here then. Well, we haven't had official— well, actually we have had official confirmation, haven't we, really now? I think we can take that from McCullum that Stokes is back and he's going to be captain. I mean, they haven't actually put out the official team yet, but that looks to be the way that it's gone.

Yeah, I mean, you know, this week's been a, you know, a tough week because of all the inexperience, but if you look at the course of the Baz McCullum coaching era, England averaged 78.3 overs of batting in the first innings. So this week they batted for 84, so they're kind of doing what they've always done anyway, whoever's in the side. And for England to become a real high-quality Test match team, you know, it's not rocket science, but they have to bat for longer in the first innings. You know, they have to earn the right to bat for 110, 115 overs, particularly on pitches like this. Not at Lord's. Lord's was a different week, the pitch was a difficult one. But this week here at The Oval, it was a batting service. What we batted in the second innings, 58 overs in the second innings, 84 in the first. It's just not enough. And I know there's a lot of inexperience, but you know, Henry Nicholls, you'd argue, you can't tell me Henry Nicholls is any better than, you know, Jordan Cox, James Roo, Jacob Bethell, Emilio Gay, similar kind of players. And, you know, he found a way. Obviously his team were playing nicely around him. He's got more seniority, so probably felt more comfortable in that setup. But now England have to find a way under Baz McCullum, and now with Ben Stokes coming back, of batting for longer periods. The only way that they're going to put the opposing teams under pressure on better pitches. You know, they've won 2 games of cricket in the last few, and one's been at the MCG, which was a 2-dayer, and the other one was at Lord's, which was a similar wicket to the MCG. Can they win on good pitches? That's going to be the challenge for this team.

Questions of both of you, I mean, and that relationship between captain and coach, you know, looking back at what has happened over these, this last couple of weeks or so. I mean, Brendan McCumming talked about it as being a blip, and you can see by his, you know, a lot in his face that you can't sort of, sort of hear that, that, that is still going to rumble on a bit, do you think, Cookie?

Well, yeah, yes, there seems to be something going on behind the scenes between, between them, you know, that They were thick as thieves at the beginning of the reign, the first 2 or 3 years. And there was no— every chance they could defend each other, they did. And yet, not so much from Stokes actually so far on this one, but from McCollum and Key, they had 2 opportunities, 3 opportunities to really back Ben Stokes, and they haven't done it.

Well, Rob Key said it felt like being smashed in the face. That's a big thing to come back from. From your boss.

Absolutely, absolutely. So I mean, there's, you know, we're still too—

we're too—

Jeremy Coney just said to me, why are we still talking about it? Why has it not been dealt with?

Absolutely.

And it's 2 weeks today, pretty much, and we're still none the wiser. And, you know, we've had a game here without our best team playing, and they've been affected. You were judged on results, like they were judged on results in Australia with their preparation. They've judged the results on this week, and they weren't good enough. As a side. So I don't know what the next couple of days is. How it is, you know, they're telling us there's no friction, there's no friction between them, but do we take that at face value? It's just, I don't know. I generally don't know. I'm bored of speculation.

Yeah, but it's just crying out to be dealt with, isn't it? Because here we are, 1-1, terrific Test series on the go, cricket up against the World Cup and goodness knows what else. And all that there's going to be, we know it's going to be leading up to that first Test is talking about Ben Stokes.

Yeah, I mean, English cricket has pretty much been the rock bed of the partnership between the captain and the coach. You know, when English cricket has had good times, whether it's been in white-ball cricket, Owen Morgan and Trevor Bayliss, Test cricket, Andy Flower and Andrew Strauss, at the start of Bazball—

You and Duncan.

Yeah, Ben and Baz. You know, that togetherness, that singing from the same hymn sheet.

Does it matter if you don't? Does it matter if if there are different opinions or different characters?

I've never been in a dressing room where the captain and coach haven't got on and had success, so I tell you that that combination needs to be a strong one. Clearly they're gonna have some work to do over the next few days. You know, as Alistair said, they had 7 opportunities to back Ben Stokes in a press conference and they didn't do that. Whether that was messaging from above, you know, whether that was coming from the CEO to say to these two, look, you're not backing publicly. We don't know that. Again, it's speculation because it hasn't been dealt with. We're still speculating.

And did those two know the facts as Ben Stokes would see the facts, I wonder, when they made those comments about the curfew and so on? I mean, again, we're fishing a bit, but if there was a misunderstanding, as I said to McCullum there, I mean, perhaps they didn't know it at the time.

Yeah, the curfew, I mean, Baz McCullum was asked before the series about the curfew, does it still exist, and I'm pretty sure he said yes. But is it in writing? You know, this attention to detail is really important.

Did the players who weren't on tour in Sri Lanka know this?

Well, this is, you know, in April when Richard Gould, Rob Key, sat in front of the media and presented all the slides, it was a reset. It was more professionalism, you know, they had all sorts of kind of talk about what's going to happen over the course of the few years, and it looked great. But ultimately, you have to abide by that attention to detail, and I'm staggered if If the England cricket team in this era, under everything that's happened in the last year, if you come into an England side, surely you have a code of conduct book. You would think so. That you get given. So Ollie Robinson's back. Ollie, welcome back, by the way. There's our code of conduct book. And guess what? There's 6 non-negotiables. I don't know how many non-negotiables you can think of, but say there's 6 non-negotiables. And by the way, the 6th one's been added in since Australia. Curfew. It's written down in a book that you go and put in your cricket bag. It's called the England Cricket Code of Conduct, what we expect from our leadership group. Look, if they're not doing that in this area of high-level sport, I find that absolutely staggering.

We shall find out, I suspect, over the next few days. Thanks, you two, because that won't be the last word on this, that's for sure. But we have moved on a bit today. We know that Ben Stokes is coming back and that we had to wrinkle him out of them. Brendan a bit, but that he is, he is going to be captain at Trent Bridge. Right, I'm going to make it back towards the dressing room. It's very, very hot out here. Uh, Andy Zaltzman, um, you can escort me back with some stats.

Uh, well, yes, Agus, uh, 3 consecutive defeats for England at the Oval now after losing to India dramatically last year by 6 runs and to Sri Lanka in 2024. Only the second time they've lost 3 consecutive matches on this ground. The other was in 1971, '72, '73. 3. But I want to focus on Matt Henry with an absolutely prodigious performance, uh, 6 for 29 in the second innings following 5 for 80 in the first innings. And that's after he started with 0 for 44 in his first 9 overs. So for the rest of the match, he took 11 for 65. Um, the rest of the bowlers in the match, put that in context, 28 wickets for 1,067. So all the other bowlers averaged 38 per wicket. Henry averaged fractionally under 10 runs per wicket. The best figures for New Zealand against England in their Test history. The best match figures for a pace bowler on this ground since Michael Holding's legendary match in 1976, 50 years ago, when he took 14 for 149. The fourth best match figures for New Zealand by a seamer, behind Richard Hadley. Richard Hadley and Richard Hadley, who had 3 better matches. So that's— and we talked a lot about the, the company Henry is keeping statistically as a bowler in his 30s. He's now averaging 19.5 since turning 30, 115 wickets in 21 Tests. Out of all the bowlers aged 30-plus who bowl 600 or more overs in Test cricket, there are 76 of those. That's the 4th best average behind Hadley, Jasprit Bumrah, and S.F. Barnes, who played for England before the First World War. And that comes down to whether you think of him as a spinner or a seamer. But that's the kind of elite statistical company he's keeping, just ahead of Malcolm Marshall, Imran Khan, Curtly Ambrose, Allan Donald, Glenn McGrath, Fred Truman— those kind of legends of bowling. So it might have taken world cricket a while to realize quite what an exceptional cricketer Matt Henry is, but But I think that message is getting through now. 74 wickets in his last 12 Tests at an average of 15.5. And again, looking at seamers who've taken that many wickets in 12 Tests, the, the list recently— Mitchell Johnson, Dale Steyn, Allan Donald, Waka Younis, Wasim Akram, uh, Curly Ambrose are the most recent ones. So truly elite statistical company that Henry, uh, is keeping. And just his head-to-head with Root and Brook in this match. 4-0. Um, for 22 from 71 balls, the first bowler ever to get Root and Brook out in both innings in, in the same Test. Root and Brook are third and first in the world rankings respectively coming into this game. Also the first bowler ever to get Joe Root LBW twice in the same Test. Just remorseless accuracy and a huge amount, a huge amount of craft. And just, just for you, Agus, the list of bowlers who've taken 70 or more wickets at an average under 16 in the history of Test cricket, seamers and spinners. Dale Steyn, Muralitharan, Shaun Pollock, Richard Hadley, Imran Khan, Jim Laker, Alec Bedser, SF Barnes, George Lohmann, and Johnny Briggs.

And here it comes, Agus. He's coming.

Charles the Terror Turner.

Well done, finish on a positive note. Thank you, Rashid. We always try and get the terror in somewhere.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. 5 minutes for— My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching, Argentina '78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Harry Hahn scoring goals from miles out. And always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the color. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football. The FIFA World Cup 2026. Listen.

On BBC Sounds.

Take the leash off your laptop with the processor that gives you long battery life. Work on the go, jump between back-to-back calls, stay locked in from brewing morning coffee to burning the midnight oil. Get maximum performance even when unplugged. Finally, the freedom to move across the room or across the world is here. Snapdragon, that's how.