Strategic Timeout: Malan & Faraaz talk IPL, ball tampering, and captaincy pressure

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK. At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer. With a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app, you get unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24/7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. From less than a dollar a week for your first year, read, watch, and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app. Find out more at bbc.com/unlimited.

You can keep up with all things IPL by watching Strategic Timeout in full on the BBC Sport YouTube channel and BBC iPlayer.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello and welcome to another Strategic Timeout with me, Amber Sandhu, the place where we chat all things IPL. And today I'm very pleased to say former England player David Millane joins me, and he's back for a second week in a row, Traitors finalist for Arsenal. Welcome both, it's lovely to see you. Um, let's get straight into it. It's been an eventful few days or so of the competition. What have we liked the look of then? What has stood out? What have the highlights been for you whilst you've been watching?

I'll let David go first as the guest.

Oh, throw me under the bus there. Um, well, I think that one of the things that stood out is the high scoring. Secondly, the fact that teams chasing have found it so much easier, whether that's the impact exact rule or not, but it seems like even if you score 220, you're pretty much out of the game. And I really like to see all the old boys, Rohit and Kohli, back in the runs. That's what you want to see in these IPLs.

They're just showing that age is just a number, aren't they? In their 30s and absolute—

Form is temporary, class is permanent.

Oh, here we go. Clip that up. For you, what have you liked the look of for us?

I think again, just echoing what David said, especially that Mumbai Indians chase, I think Chasing 224 and chasing it 4 down as well is like absolutely ridiculous. And the opening partnership was unbelievable.

Can we also just mention, um, 15-year-old Vaibhav Suryavanshi scoring a 15-ball 50? Part of me is just like, if you'd started at 10 years old, what could have happened? It could have been 10-ball 50s, right?

I know, he is phenomenal, isn't he? I mean, the fact that he can walk— I mean, his first IPL last year, he walked and hit the first ball he faced for 6. And then to come out and consistently do it— he did in the Under-19 World Cup, he was the player of the series there— to come out here and then continue that form, unbelievable. 15 years old. I mean, I don't even think I could tie my shoelaces at 15, and let alone face the best bowlers in the world and score 50 off 15 balls. It's phenomenal.

I think it's the fact that he's beaten his own record as well. Obviously it was 17-ball for him last year, and then he's done a 15 one. I think he'll be knocking on the door for the overall record, 100%, knocking on Chris Gayle's door.

Oh, your favourite. We were talking about last week. We're going to talk about that kind of comparison of kind of the youth and then the kind of senior players a little bit later on. But David, it's a pleasure to have you on. Someone who has played in the IPL. Tell us what it's really like, because there is no franchise tournament like it, is there?

No, you're right, it's— it is the ultimate, um, top of the pile if you want to put it that way in, in terms of franchise cricket. I'd say my experience was slightly different in the IPL. I played in COVID actually, so I had the experience of hazmat suits on planes, I had bubbles, I had no crowds, I had it being cancelled halfway through. Um, it, it was a bit of an eye-opener, you know, You know, you get picked in the IPL, you're incredibly excited, you have the highs of, I'm now playing in the best tournament in the world, to suddenly turning up, sitting in a hotel room for a week, having to be isolated, then you're in a bubble, you don't see anyone, you don't see the fans, you don't experience the whole IPL craze, if you want to put it that way.

During that period, did you find it sort of hard to get going for games, especially when you've got like no fanfare and things?

It was sort of a 50-50 really. You found it hard to get up for the games. It was really tricky when you rock up at a game and, you know, I mean, I played my game at Ahmedabad and it's 120,000-seater. There was not one person in the stadium. It's just echoey and it's, it feels dead. And, you know, they've got music playing, but it's just like, it's weird. It's like you're just playing, it feels like you're playing at your local club ground. It's, it's, I reckon you'd have more people at a local club ground actually. So, um, you, you have that, and then on the other hand, um, you don't have any pressure. Because there's no crowd, there's no noise, you don't feel the build-up. So I always say when you're batting in a game and you're struggling, you can start hearing all the noises. You hear the crowd, you hear the fans, you hear the chanting, everything starts getting faster and faster and faster. Whereas when you're playing in front of nobody, it's just silence. So you're actually able to control your emotions more, so you're able to focus more on the thing. So yeah, 50/50 in the sense of it was rubbish not having the crowd, and it's really hard to get yourself up for it, but also great in the sense that you didn't feel as much pressure when you were batting.

Obviously, your IPL experience wasn't what you'd maybe hope it'd be, but what was the crowd that you've played in front of where you've thought, wow, like, this is, this is incredible?

You know, I would say whenever we played against India, the crowds were unbelievable, whether it was in the UK or whether it was overseas. Pakistan as well, when you play— I mean, I played a game in Lahore where it sounded like, you know, there were 150,000 people. That's how loud it was. And Pakistan were playing well at the time. So, and I feel like with the crowd, It's a bizarre experience. So I feel like when I'm playing well, I don't notice the crowd at all. So you hear it when you walk out to bat, or you hear it when you're waiting to bat, and you sort of, you know, Joss Butler was open the batting, I was batting 3 in T20, so, you know, you'd hear him hit a 6 in the crowd again, you'd be like, wow, this is awesome. Like, how good is this? Like, and you're looking at your mates and be like, this is top draw. And then as soon as the wicket falls and you walk out to bat, you put your helmet on, it's like you hear it walking out, you hear your name being called and You know, the bizarre bit where you look up and then you see your picture on the scoreboard with all your stats, and then you're like, oh, that's good, or that's embarrassing, I need to sort them out. And then you walk out and then it's just focus, and then suddenly it's like the noise is just gone. All you see is the bowler. You obviously look at the field, and times when you're batting really badly, it's amazing how you hear the crowd. Like, you suddenly, you can hear like individual things being shouted, which when you're playing well, it's just like white noise. It's just like a like a hum. But when you're not playing well, you can hear everything. And you, you play and miss, and the crowd's suddenly in your ear, and it gets to you. So you have to find ways to cope with it, have techniques, whether it's breathing, whether it's walking away, whether it's slowing the game down to your pace. Because otherwise it just gets faster and faster, and you make the same mistake, and you can feel yourself like really swinging harder and harder, and your hands are getting quicker, and your legs are feeling heavy, and everything's moving. So you have to be able to slow it down and get the game to your pace.

Is there a part of you that probably maybe wants to give it another go so you can have the full experience?

I would love to have another go. I think time has caught up with me. I'm 39 this year, so I think it's caught up with me, unfortunately. But that's, I guess, that's my biggest regret in terms of franchise cricket and my cricket, that when I had my IPL experience, I didn't play in front of a packed house. I was fortunate enough to play World Cups in India, and I played some T20s in India where you'd play in front of full houses. And so I managed to get that experience of the Indian crowd and the crazy craziness of it and the loudness of it. And that was an experience. I mean, I remember playing one of my World Cup games against India at Lucknow, and there were 60,000 people. The whole stadium was blue, and it was Rowett was on 49, and it was Rowett, Rowett, Rowett! And you're standing, you're getting goosebumps, and it's not even you.

They're not even calling you.

Oh, and it ended up getting his 50, and it sounded like, you know, like an explosion had gone off, like the crowd was so loud. Um, and those are the things that you, you sort of cherish as a player. But if I had the chance, I'd love to have played another IPL and You know, I actually pulled out of that IPL as well because we had nashes. I made the decision for my England career, whereas looking back, I probably should have just got on with it. I got dropped from England afterwards either way, so I probably should have just done it either way and not worried.

So on that point as well, would you sort of encourage players to look into franchise cricket more if it's going to come at a jeopardy in national cricket?

No, I wouldn't say in jeopardy. I think if you look at what Harry Brook and Ben Stokes are doing, I think that's brilliant. And the fact that they're prioritizing England, I think the Australian players do that really well as well. They'll play the IPL, maybe one other tournament here or there where the schedule allows it, and I think it allows you to be fresh for international cricket. I think playing for your country is the pinnacle. What I would say is that franchise cricket helps you develop so much quicker. It helps you play against the best players in different conditions. Your game develops at a rate that is just different to when you're just playing for your county team. You know, one of the benefits of playing franchise cricket is you end up playing with players that you've idolized in your career. Now, I've played with Chris Gayle before that I've looked up at. I know he's one of your favorites, Rob, I just picked up. But you end up walking in the changing room with him and you see how he goes about his business, how he does his training, you speak to him about batting, you know, you end up learning so much which ends up benefiting your international cricket.

Yeah, because I think it is getting them tidbits from the best players, isn't it? I've seen a clip of Kevin Peterson saying when he played in the IPL, it 100% bettered his game, playing like Rahane. And obviously Bethel, now he'll be sharing the changing rooms with Kohli. So that's things that you're never gonna, you're never gonna get just playing with players that you already play with, you know.

Exactly. And one of the things that no one talks about franchise cricket is you You're one of 4 or one of 8 overseas players in a squad. You're one of 4 that plays in the game. So you are there to perform. You're getting paid the big bucks to walk out and to score runs, take wickets, win games of cricket. And if you don't perform, there's someone knocking on the door behind you. And when you start playing international cricket, it's exactly the same pressure and you feel like you're used to it.

What was sort of the most important thing you think you picked up from another player or the best piece of advice you got from sharing them changing rooms with another player or another coach?

Yeah, so funny enough, the game I played, I got out to Axel Patel. I got out slog sweep and he bowled me, and I got out and I was obviously annoyed as I am. I walked up, sat down, and Chris Gayle was sat there. You know, I sort of said to him, what do you reckon? He just said, you shouldn't get bowled. I said, what do you mean? He said, left-arm spinner should never bowl you. And I was like, go on. He was like, well, what guard were you on? I was like, I was standing on middle stump. He was around the wicket. I wanted to give myself a bit of freedom. He was like, 'Nah, go about an off stump, either LBW or caught. You cannot be bowled to a left-arm spinner.' You know, what, there's sort of things that you think that you know and you think that you've got them into your game, but then when you hear someone who is one of the most feared players of spin, and especially the ball turning into him, off-spin, leg-spin in the world at the time, giving you a little tip like that, it, you know, it sticks with you and then you can put that into practice.

You were at Punjab, so was your captain KL Rahul?

KL Rahul, yeah.

What was he like as a leader?

He's a lovely guy. He's got a lot of time for you. And you always think that when you play against India and you play against some of the big names and you see how— I mean, they're superstars, aren't they? It's almost like Hollywood stars when, you know, the Indian cricketers. And you think they're not going to have time for people, but they're genuinely such good people. They make a lot of time for you. Even in the hotel, he'd invite you for dinner. He had his partner with him at the time, and he'd invite you to sit down and breakfast with him. And just watching him go about his business, you know, I always watched him play for India. He'd scored 100 across all formats. He was someone that I'd looked up to watching and thought was a hell of a player. So to be able to see him train, see how he goes about things, see how he prepares, because that's what you want to do as a player. You want to pick up on the small things. I remember watching Chris Gayle doing some training with, you know, I think he had his weight on his heel to start with, and then he was putting his foot down as he was making contact. And when they ask him, he's, you know, he says he doesn't want to commit too early on his front foot because then he loses power. And then you start picking up little things like that, and then you start trying to find ways of implementing them in your game. And, you know, those are the things that you can't really get from watching cricket on a TV. And when you start sitting in the changing room with these people, you start learning things and asking questions and hearing stories. And that's, they're the memories you can never forget.

We talk about pressure and responsibility when it comes to being a captain, media scrutiny, also being there for your players as well, being that role model. What sort of captain and leader were you?

I guess my captaincy experience has fluctuated a bit in terms of how I was. I had it quite young. I think it was 2016, I captained for the first time. And I hadn't really learned how to control my emotions as much. I would be a bit up and down with the game, and you know, you'd get a bit emotional when things were going badly and get a bit high when things were going well. So, you know, I had to learn how to be consistent. Actually helped my batting, that as well, learning to be consistent, because as even when you're batting, as soon as you hit a four, you're like, oh, I'm going again, and then everything, your adrenaline's going.

That's me though.

Isn't that all of us?

And then I'm out next ball.

Yeah, that's it.

And that's it. And that's the key to batting, is trying to control your emotions. So I actually learned from the captaincy how to keep it as consistent. I think the key for any captain is to have a really good coach with you, someone that's on the same page, someone that understands your strengths and your weaknesses, someone who's able to dovetail with you. I was the type of captain that liked to tell players whether they were getting picked or not. I thought players respected that a lot more when you could look someone in the eyes and say, sorry, pal, you're missing out today. These are the reasons. Making sure that your coach is on the same page as you. So they, you know, as with anything, if you get dropped, you're going to run straight to the coach and say, give me a reason, and you want the message to be as consistent as you can. So as long as those sort of basic things are in place, I think that makes life a lot easier. The biggest challenge as a captain is performing. So yes, you have an influence on the game, you have an influence on decisions that get made in the game, whether it be bowling changes or batting changes or team decisions, tosses, whether you bat first or not. But if you're not performing as a captain and you're not scoring runs, if you're a batter or taking wickets, it's a very lonely place to be because you know everyone's looking at you. Especially if you look at franchise cricket, as a captain, you know, your place is guaranteed because you're playing. If you're not pulling your weight, at some point there's going to be questions of, we're not winning games of cricket because the captain's not scoring runs or taking wickets. Suddenly there's added pressure on you. You have to learn to deal with it, and that's where a good coach who's able to, I would say, especially in franchise cricket, manage up. You know, there's a lot of pressure from owners, there's a lot of pressure from media, there's a lot of pressure from friends and a lot of opinions from friends to owners and things like that. So that will start filtering down to the team. So if you've got a good coach that can manage up and shield the players and the captain from that, I think that's a lot of the job done.

Who was sort of the best captain you think you played under?

But the best captain I played under without doubt is Owen Morgan.

Strikes me as someone who's quite level-headed, someone who's very, just very cool as a cucumber, some would say.

Yeah, he is, he's got a lot about him, Owen, even though he doesn't show it, and he really prides himself on his emotions. He's always been like that, you know. I made my debut in 2006 with Owen for Middlesex, and he's always been that player, he gives you nothing. Like as a player, you don't know if he's happy or sad. You don't know. He's always been like that. He's always controlled his emotions so well. He was consistent with his messaging. He never changed it from week to week. It was for 4 or 5 or 6 years, this is how we're going to play, this is what we're going to do, this is the type of person I want, this is the type of character that I want in my team. And he was pretty clear on it. And I was left out a lot of times, and you were able to sit down and have an open conversation with him. There was never a hard feeling. But he was by far the best in terms of The off-field management, on-field, he was so calm in terms of his decision-making. I mean, you know, he's a little bit of a gambler, Morgz, in general. So a lot of his decisions, even though he did his homework and he was very clear on what he wanted to do, he would understand moments in the game. And because that was his nature, he would take a gamble by bringing his best bowlers in or by keeping his best bowlers deeper, or he would sort of read the game really well and understand when to when to sort of go all in and when to, to, to pull out, if you want to put it that way. So he was, um, very good at that. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer. With a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app, you get unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24/7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. From less than a dollar a week for your first year, read, watch, and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app. Find out more at bbc.com/unlimited.

A question for both of you then, having heard Owen Morgan's traits there, and, you know, speaking of your own captaincy experience, what are those attributes that kind of define an elite, successful captain?

I think for me, obviously, I won't have played under the captains like you'll have played under, and yourself, but I think for me, man management's a huge thing. You can have ideas coming from anywhere, but I think you want your captain to be a leader and to be able to know how to communicate with every single person differently.

Spoken like a true leader.

Yeah, to be fair, I've captained once before. I remember we had a mink game.

Here we go.

Honestly, it was like under-15s. And our captains beforehand, they were away, so I stepped in for this game. They were mint. I was nowhere near as good as them. And we were playing this team who we probably should have beat quite comprehensively. We batted first. I think we got bowled out for like 50, 60, and I thought, oh my God, I'm never being captain ever again. And I just said to the lads, I said to the lads at halftime, you know what, lads, just enjoy yourselves. Go out, no pressure whatsoever. Like, just enjoy yourselves. And now, for the senior Then we ended up winning. We bowled the other team out for like 45, so I was absolutely buzzing after that. So I thought—

60 played 45?

Yeah, well, there you go.

Yeah, it was a right game.

You wouldn't find that in the IPL, would you?

Did you get a call-up again?

Yeah, yeah. So I was captain for the rest of the season. Yeah, we've done, we've done well.

What sort of captain were you then?

No, I was one of them, like, sort of, um, like, man in management, I think. My tactics, like, my knowledge of the game wasn't as good as a few of the other lads. And I saw, as you said, like, you balance that with the coaches, obviously being younger. But I think I got on well with everyone, so it was just nice to, like, make sure everyone enjoyed the game and not to put pressure on anyone, because I was keeping as well at the time, so I was quite the voice. So I was really vocal, probably to the detriment of other players and batsmen and other coaches. I remember one coach went to my dad, he went, your lad needs to shut up, like, he's too nedding.

I reckon you probably give the bats a bit of chat as well, don't you?

Oh yeah, I used to love it.

You're a bit of a chirper, aren't you?

Actually, there must be You know, when you play, like, what sort of the slaver at your level, like, you must get a lot of, a lot of chat.

Uh, at times, yeah, at times there were. It, it gets monitored a lot more now. There's stump mics, things like that, so players are a lot more careful what they say. Um, things feel like it's always on, you know, there's always a microphone on. Umpires have microphones now. Umpire's always listening. There's, you know, the camera that flies around now, so there's always things and And because of franchise cricket, players play against each other and with each other all the time, so it's like everyone's mates. So you get the odd fired-up situation, and then 5 minutes later you walk past and you go, sorry, mate. And then you're like, yeah, and everyone has a beer afterwards. But yeah, there's been times where you think, oh, that's crossed the mark. And I guess it was probably early on in county cricket, there was a lot more, um, a lot more than, than there was in international cricket. Maybe one once or twice against the Aussies, there were some good moments. Um, but you know, those are the moments you want as players. You don't want to just be happy smiley. Yeah, you want people to get like really in your bubble and you really want to feel like you're in the fight. And I really enjoyed that. So yeah, I think it's gone out the game a little bit.

Yeah, sorry, I'm a bit tangent there. So yeah, man management, man management.

Next one.

Well, let's bring that back to IPL then. Some of the greatest captains we've seen across the tournament. I mean, we have to mention, of course, MS Dhoni, Rohit Sharma, both winning 5 titles each. But who are some of those IPL captains that you look at and be like, They've done a great job.

Well, it's hard to look past those two, aren't they? I mean, Dhoni, I mean, 10 finals I think he's been into, won 5, Rohit's 5. There's been some good ones over the years. I mean, they've had Shane Warne has been a part, Gilchrist as captain before, Faf du Plessis did really well with RCB a couple of years ago. He's actually a really good captain, someone that I've played against who, you know, tactically is very, very good. Reads the game really well, always feels like he's one step ahead. You know, Eoin Morgan's captained the IPL before. But yeah, it's hard to look past those two guys. With the records they've had, the teams they've had, the consistency that they've had in winning titles and always being there and thereabouts towards the playoffs.

I think with them too as well, it's about like they'll take the pressure on themselves, especially MS. He's like the perfect example really, like he thrives in that pressure and taking it off other players as well. So I think, yeah, it's hard to look past them too, to be honest.

Yeah, and they're both different styles, aren't they? So Dhoni plays at Chennai where the like, you know, generally slower turning wickets. You have to win your home games to be successful in the IPL majority of the time. So they had a really good squad built for that. And his theory of taking the game deep, yeah, whether it be with the ball or with the bat, really suited the home conditions where it was slow and hard to start. Whereas Rohit plays at Mumbai, which is a high-scoring game, and you have to take the game on. So the two total different leaders of trying to get ahead of the game, and one takes it deep, Dhoni also is so calm. He never says a word. He's quiet. He's, you know, he's just moving, doesn't do any meetings, doesn't even turn up to the meetings. He lets everyone else do a meeting and then just says, do this.

Yeah.

And it's weird, like everyone that's played with him says he's phenomenal in how he does it, how he man-manages, how he treats people, how he's got time for people. His room door is always open, so you can always just walk into his hotel room at any time and he's always available. He would let the bowlers go and do their meetings and the batters, and then the bowler would go at the end his markers saying, all right, this is our plan. He'd go, nah, this is the plan. And then everyone goes, all right. So he'd just sort of change it. He'd read the conditions, and that's how he liked to captain. Rowett was obviously, um, he's— I wouldn't say more emotional, he's quiet on the field, but like really gets fired up in moments. And you can see it when you play, whether that be with his own teammates or not. He'd really get fired up in crucial moments of the game. And tactically, both very good as well. MS didn't really believe in matchups, so if he thought an off-spinner was the right option to two right-handers, he would bowl them. Where someone like Rowett was very good tactically. He had Bumrah, Malinga, and all these guys, so he would always bring them back at crucial times in the game. Talk about Eoin Morgan being, um, understanding when to gamble and bring back your players. Rohit does that really well. So they both have different styles of captaincy.

And well, we've had a lot of captain chats, and this is going to be quite a tricky question, but could we almost build our perfect captain? Should we start with batting aura? Feraz, I'll come to you first.

Batting aura, I think I'm gonna go with Ricky Ponting. I think just the way he attacked the game on the front foot, very aggressive. He always said, whether I'm on— if I was on 100, I'll play the same when I was in the first ball of the innings. So I think just that mentality, that fearless mentality. So I'd go with him.

Tactical mindset, who would you go for?

Tactical, I'd probably go with— to be honest, I'm gonna pass this over to David. I'm passing this over. You can do a combined one actually.

Let's do a combined one. Yeah, go on, go on.

I would say tactical Michael would be Morgan or Donnie. I would be the— would be the two, and I'll let you decide which one that you want out of Morgan.

You know what, I'll go with— from what you said, I'll go with Donnie, uh, from saying that his plan is the way, uh, and just also even feeding in that money management as well, like his door's always open. But I think his calmness, his consistency, I think will lead into his tactics.

So you're picking Donnie for that one?

Yeah.

Okay, so man management, are we going to put Owen in that one then?

I'd put Owen in there, yeah.

Yeah, after what we spoke about his level-headedness. Media presence, now I know who I'd want to put in there, but go on.

Yeah, I've got, I'd say Coley.

Yeah, I was going to say Coley.

Yeah, definitely a Coley, or I also thought of Hardik Pandya as well because he's quite good.

Yeah, he likes it as well, yeah.

And final one, arguably maybe the most important, pressure handling. Who can handle the pressure the best?

I think Coley's another good shout.

You can't have him twice.

Oh, can I not?

You can't have him twice.

You know what, I'm gonna put Graeme Smith in there. Okay, Smith, you pulled out a great shout.

Is this Test cricket or T20 cricket?

I think he was an unbelievable captain, and I feel as if in that South Africa side as well, he sort of was that pinpoint that held it all together, and that must have took a lot of pressure when you're carrying basically a nation on your shoulders. So I think Graeme Smith for me.

Perfect captain there. Yeah, happy with it.

Nearly as good as me. There's some decent players in there, but yeah, I don't know if they'll have won that Under-15s game. I wouldn't like to be there.

It always comes back to the Under-15s game. Now I'm going to be very careful with this section because what I don't want is people to say that I'm calling certain players old, which I'm not. But T20 has been attached to kind of like, you know, fearless stroke play, this kind of youthful energy. But then you've got your Rohit Sharmas, your Emma Stonies, your Virat Kohlis who are saying actually I can still come out here, hit 50s and centuries for fun.

Yeah, well, considering I'm the oldest in general, I'm just trying to be careful. Yeah, you've done well, you didn't throw me under the bus there, but because I'm coming towards the older age, I think older players should be playing. But, you know, you have to have the balance, right? I wouldn't say it's a young man's game, but you have to be athletic, you have to be able to field in different positions. Nowadays in the IPL with the impact rule, it allows you to to have, you know, an extra batter come in or an extra bowler come in. And as the older player, you could probably sit out, which is the absolute dream. No fielding— what a gig that is. I think the game has changed to some extent now that bowlers are more athletic. So as an older player, you can field at short third man and 45 and at cover more often, at point. So you don't have to be on the boundary where you're having to be, you know, really quick. But you need to have these older players in teams for players to learn. You know, if you have a young team where you've got everyone under 25 years old, players are not going to learn. They haven't had the experience of failing, of dealing with the social media, dealing with press, dealing with, you know, the fallout from owners, whatever it may be. And if you don't have these players around, you don't know, you're not going to develop as quickly. And we talked about a little bit earlier about how, you know, I still learn from players that you play with, from players that have been there and done that you watch. And if you don't have these players setting the right examples and doing the things that you you know, you haven't thought of, you just don't develop as quickly. So you have to have the balance. You don't want to have 6 guys that are 35+ in a team because, you know, realistically, over a long tournament, especially the IPL is incredibly long, it makes it harder for those players to perform consistently. You know, the travel and, you know, training, it takes a lot out of you. So you have to find that balance. But, you know, I still think experience is what you need in T20 cricket. People can say whatever they want about young players. I have never seen an inexperienced team win a World Cup or win a trophy. I mean, you can go through all the books and hopefully someone proves me wrong. World Cups are not won by a young team. They're always won by teams that have been together for 3 or 4 years, older players that have been experienced. So yeah, I think if you can get the right balance, you know, there's a massive part of the game in T20 cricket for the older players.

Yeah, I think it's definitely a necessity because they've been there, done it. They'll have experienced them sort of whether to take it deep or whether to take the game on. They'll have experienced them situations before in scenarios, whereas maybe an inexperienced team, it might be the first time doing something like that.

Well, let's get around some of the talking points from around the tournament, one of them being in the last week or so, Cameron Green, who was of course the most expensive overseas player in the auction, um, playing for Kolkata. We saw him bat but not bowl, and when they were asked about it at the end of the game, the quote was, ask Cricket Australia, and apparently it was already pre-agreed that he wouldn't bowl. But You're buying him as an all-rounder, huge price tag. Are you actually getting value for money?

No, I don't think you are, because if they knew he wasn't going to bowl, they probably wouldn't have picked him up in the auction. So they might have said maybe 3 weeks before the IPL, well, he's not available to bowl until this date, and then that's a bit late when you picked him up in the auction. I actually think all-rounders in, in the IPL now are slightly overrated, um, not in the sense that they're not good players, but because there's an impact rule now, you don't need all the all-rounders because you can pick 7 or 8 batters and swap one of the batters for an out-and-out bowler. So you have specialists in each position. So the impact rule, as good as it is, it actually makes the all-rounder's role slightly redundant unless you're an absolute jet. So I was a bit surprised that considering this, the impact rule has been in for a while, they've actually paid so much money for Cameron Green when you wouldn't say his batting is good enough to guarantee a spot and you wouldn't say his bowling is good enough to guarantee a spot. That doesn't mean he's not an unbelievable cricketer and he's going to be a fantastic cricketer over the years, um, but he hasn't found his way yet in either of those. So if he's not bowling, it makes incredibly difficult for him to, I believe, hold his spot mainly as a batter unless he really kicks on.

Yeah, 100%, I agree. I think the specialist role is the way to go. As we've seen in the past few games, it's sort of them opening partnerships, your top 4 being scoring bulk of the runs. Jacob Duffy as well, he's not an all-rounder, he had an amazing game. So I really do think that the all-rounder probably is a bit overrated in this day and age in the IPL.

And another talking point away from the IPL, but still on kind of tournaments in the PSL, we've seen another case of ball tampering. Fakir Zaman, who plays for Lahore Golunders, and being charged with ball tampering. Now, he denies it, but he's been charged for unfairly changing the condition of the ball. Now, it's a huge talking point within the sport. My question to you is, David, how much of an impact does something like ball tampering have on a game and on the ball and on the situation as a whole?

Well, it makes a massive difference if you can get the ball reversing, whichever way you do it, whether that's legally or illegally, whether you're throwing the ball into the dirt and getting it scuffed up, or whether you're changing the condition of the ball yourself. If you can get the ball to move, it makes such a difference at the death. You know, the death overs are the hardest to bowl. Batters are so skilled now at hitting the ball miles, and you know, your mishits are going for sixes. So if you can get any tactical advantage with the ball shaping a little bit, reverse swinging towards the end, you want to do what you can to do that. But, you know, you know, in the teams that I've played in in the past, teams, or, you know, you're always trying to find ways to get the ball reversing, you know. And I'm not gonna sit here and say that people haven't tried different things to get the ball reversing, because they have. That, you know, that's part of the game, is you want that little bit of advantage. Um, and again, if you look at historically over the, over the game, people have been caught trying to tamper with the ball for years, you know. It's not a new thing. So, you know, I actually think you should just legalize it. Just let people scratch the ball. Like, obviously not bring things in from outside, but if you— it's a skill in itself to be able to get the ball to reverse swing. I think it would make cricket a lot more bowler-friendly towards the end if you can get the ball reversing. I think it would make games tighter towards the end, and it wouldn't just be winning with 6 wickets in hand because there'd be, you know, ball moving, harder to face. Um, I'd obviously be out by then, so it wouldn't affect me. So it'd affect some guy down the order that's getting paid $3 million to go and whack it. But, um, as the The law stands, you shouldn't be doing it. So, um, yeah, he's been caught, he's been banned, and, you know, hopefully he learns from that.

When, when you say legalize it, how common is it then? Because that sort of implies that it happens.

Is it something you've seen?

Yeah, yeah. As I said, I've played in teams where guys definitely look to try and do what you can, and, you know, you, you do what you can do to try and get the ball moving in, in different ways, um, because any sort of movement towards the end benefits you, even if it only moves an inch. It's, it's missing the middle of the back by an inch, which hits the inside edge, so you gain an advantage. So, you know, there's definitely times where players have tried things, whether it's worked or not, it's irrelevant. But you're always trying to find things, you know, legally you can bowl the ball cross seam, and you know, the advertising boards now, you've got these LED boards that go around the field. If the ball hits that, it scuffs it up, and that's all you need is that one little scuff on the ball. And if you look after the ball really well, you keep the ball as dry as you can, you keep the rough side off at certain points so it doesn't get too rough, you keep the one side really smooth. So you see guys really shining the one side of the ball towards the end and in their shirts and things. And yeah, there's little things that, that players do to try and get the ball reversing because you need every single bit of help you can get as a bowler towards the end.

I think we could have a whole episode on ball tampering. And we'll leave it there. Final question, I asked Firas this last week, who's your money on very quickly? Who's going to win the tournament this year?

RCB.

Without hesitation, RCB 2 years in a row. It's been a joy to have you, David. Thank you much for us. As always, we will be back next week where we unpick even more. We debrief all things IPL.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. BBC Radio 5 Live. Patrick Kilty stumbling your way into Saturday mornings with great guests.

Good morning, Jimmy Nesbitt.

Good morning, Paddy.

You're terrible.

Kids taking down commentators. You've wiped the floor with our commentator, Kean. How does it feel? It feels nice. Football chants from the gods. Take me home when I get old. The less said about the host, the better. Patrick Kielty, Saturdays from 9. Listen on BBC Sounds.

At the BBC, we go further so you see clearer. With a subscription to bbc.com and the BBC app, You get unlimited articles and videos, ad-free podcasts, the BBC News Channel streaming live 24/7, plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. From less than a dollar a week for your first year, read, watch, and listen to trusted independent journalism and storytelling. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com and the BBC app. Find out more at BBC.com/unlimited.