The 2017 World Cup winners’ reunion

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello and welcome to the Test Match Special Podcast, and this is Ishi Guha. 9 years ago, women's sport in this country was in a very different place. The Lionesses had yet to conquer Europe, the Red Roses yet to have their triumph on home soil. And in 2017, the England women's cricket team repeated the success of sides going back several decades in winning a World Cup. I was very fortunate to be part of a team in 2009 that won a 50-over tournament in Australia and then the T20 World Cup at home. England's women had barely been professional for 2 years, but they had the opportunity to capture the hearts and minds of a nation and get a victory in a home World Cup that would, as it turned out, go on to inspire a generation of cricketers and lead the game to the remarkable place of professionalism it is today. At the time, many of these players weren't the household names that they are today. The idea of the wealth of women's Premier League in India seemed a pipe dream, and of course The Hundred, now at the forefront of English domestic women's cricket, had yet to be conceived. Join this edition of the podcast. We're going back 9 years to speak to some of those stars of the England side that so dramatically beat India under cloudy skies at Lords one July afternoon in 2017.

Shrubsole in now, balls on, balls on! 6 wickets for Amy Shrubsole, England's hero. England win the World Cup in front of a packed house at Lords who go nuts in the crowd. England in a huddle. Listen to that noise for an England women's team winning a World Cup on home soil in 2017. And England have done won it by just 9 runs at Lord's.

Well, I'm so pleased that 5 members of that squad are with me to talk it through. Tammy Beaumont and Lauren Winfield-Hill opened the batting for England that year, setting the tone for some of the totals that the bowling unit would then defend. Dani White-Hodge is one of England's most capped cricketers, part of the squad to provide firepower and her own unique sense of energy to the camp. Anya Shrubsole had a day to dream of in the final and will tell us exactly what happened as the wickets started tumbling in India's innings. And the captain, Heather Knight, had only been in the job for a year but led the side quite brilliantly on their way to World Cup glory. This is the story of the glorious win.

This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Obviously great to have you all here. I'm sure you don't get together like this very often, so a great opportunity to relive what was one of the best moments in your lives, I imagine. But I want to go right back to the start of the tournament, and, you know, it'd been a little bit of turbulence for the England Women's Cricket Team. Mark Robinson had made the very difficult decision to remove Charlotte Edwards as captain, so it was very much a new era for England Women's Cricket on the back of the 2016 World Cup, which hadn't been very successful for the team. Heather Knight had been introduced as captain, and it had been a year for you, Heather. Leading into this World Cup. I remember a lot of the media around the time, you guys were very much batting off the favorites tag. But can you remember how you were feeling ahead of the tournament as captain and with this group of players? And did you have a genuine belief before the tournament that you could go all the way?

Yeah, I remember it clearly. I remember being in a boot about sort of a month before the competition and being pretty stressed that I wasn't going to be fit, that I wasn't going to have enough time to kind of prepare. I was slightly pooing my pants a little bit about my first World Cup as captain. I knew it was going to be a big one, obviously at home. But yeah, there was, there was definitely that sort of quite quiet confidence in the group, I think. Obviously there's been a lot of change. It felt like a really fresh group, a really exciting group. We'd done some really cool stuff like We were trying to change slightly the type of cricket we were playing, trying to be a lot more aggressive. And yeah, the summer previously was quite a fun summer to be involved in, really. Like, broke a few records, obviously had a really fresh face, particularly the batting lineup. And yeah, we were just excited to go into it, I think. And it was quite nice not to be favorites. That was definitely a deliberate ploy to try and play things down. And yeah, we even lost the first game to try and take the pressure off us, which worked out quite nicely.

I remember everyone writing us off at that point as well, so, um, as someone who likes to prove people wrong, that was quite fun.

Sammy, just your thoughts on where the team were at ahead of the tournament. In 2009, you made your debut, so after the, the World Cup winners of '09 winning the World Cup in, in Australia and then, um, in the UK. So you're probably buzzing off the back of that coming into the England team, but what was the mood like around this side in the absence of, you know, Charlotte Edwards and, and Olly Greenway as well?

Yeah, I think obviously taking those two out of the kind of squad in 2016, I think Robbo and Heather pitched it brilliantly that from kind of that moment it was about the whole squad going on a journey, and that journey was hopefully going to involve singing our team song at Lord's. And obviously, you know, we pretty much started from 12 months out on horrendous fitness sessions around Bradgate Park near Loughborough where we were carrying logs and things up and down hills, and kind of that shared suffering and, and all of those things really kind of brought us together, um, to the point that going into that tournament, we— I feel like we knew the entire squad inside and out. Um, I'm sure Anja won't probably mind me saying, but we did a thing called Spotlight where you learn about your personalities, and Claire and I were complete opposites. And before that, we probably would Well, I would annoy Anya in my communication style, and, um, that type of stuff kind of got us ready where in a way I could start talking to Anya in a way that landed a lot easier. And I think vice versa, we understood each other so brilliantly that going into that, the minute we knew the pressure was on, we knew how to talk to each other, how to get the best out of each other. And yeah, it took a lot of hard work to get to that point. So I think going into it, we didn't know if we'd win, we didn't know if we could really take on the likes of Australia and those around the time, but we certainly believed in each other and found ways to perform under pressure.

Any thoughts on that?

Tammy never annoyed me. No one ever annoyed me. I just— it's just my default look, I think, is one of general annoyance. But no, I think we felt like we'd done a lot of work as a squad. I'll preface this, but I've obviously retired for 4 years from international cricket, so my memory might be slightly hazy. But yeah, we'd done a lot of hard work as a squad and felt like we were in a good place to play some good cricket and kind of see what happened.

Let's talk about that first game then and losing to India in the first match. Smriti Mandhana ran away with it, 90 from 72 deliveries. Loz, as part of that group and an opening batter yourself, you know, what was going through your mind when she was smashing it everywhere?

Yeah, well, I actually didn't play in that game I got hit in the warm-up game by Te Huhu and broke my wrist, so I wasn't playing that game. But I just remember, yeah, I just remember thinking, um, and just how much like backlash we got after that was— I'm just thinking like, it's just not the ideal start that we, that we obviously wanted. But it just sort of felt like, to be honest, that whole 12 months, 18 months in the lead-up to it, everything was just part of the journey, like Tam said. And I think The fact that we sort of fell at that first hurdle almost made like the narrative and the story even better. And just that sort of like, and probably brought us closer. I mean, like, we were completely caught off guard and almost like shell-shocked in that first game. But it almost gave us the wake-up call that we needed.

Did you feel that, Dan?

Yeah, we lost on purpose because every team that wins the World Cup always loses the first game.

On a serious note, Heather, like, Was there any panic at all that kind of set in for yourself as captain? Because you obviously want to get the tournament underway with a, you know, with a positive outcome.

Yeah, it wasn't a great day actually. The stewards at Derby wouldn't let us in the ground because we didn't have like the right accreditation. You guys remember that? What are you guys here for? It's like, we've got a game, mate.

Anyway, who are you?

What are you doing there? No, I don't think so. I think we're pretty logical about it. Like, obviously, 50-day World Cup, like, you've got a lot of games to kind of make it up. And I remember having a conversation with, with Rob actually just after I got off the pitch, and it was kind of like, it's not a big deal, let's just keep it very consistent. Um, I feel like we can learn a lot from this. Maybe we probably played a little bit safe, if we're honest, but we wanted to keep things pretty calm, pretty relaxed, and just back this type of cricket that we've been playing over the last year and kind of go back to that. And, um, yeah, it was obviously a big game, that next game against Pakistan. I think it was at Leicester. And yeah, I wanted to really kind of put a dominant performance in. And like, I guess as captain as well, I knew I had to kind of lead from the front and be quite free and try and be quite aggressive. We've obviously, myself included, probably got a little bit safe in that first game. So, um, yeah, luckily we bounced back pretty well and yeah, got on a bit of a roll really, which was really nice.

We'll get to that game in a second, but as a captain, did you feel like you needed to protect the players a little bit from the backlash you received?

Yeah, always. I think you're always trying to protect the team, aren't you? And something that Robbo was really good at in terms of protecting the players. And yeah, we obviously got a little bit of stick, but I think it kind of rallied us as a group, and people kind of wrote us off. It made us become a lot tighter, and actually a lot of us went off social media for that competition, um, which I think was quite useful actually, because you a lot of stuff that was being said that wasn't particularly positive, you just didn't see really. So, um, yeah, it was deliberate kind of ploy to stay really tight as a group and try and, um, sort of protect the circle we were in and the squad that we had, um, to just really focus on what we had to do rather than kind of what, what happened.

Was that harder for some people than others, getting off social media?

Danny, looking at me, you like the socials, don't you, Dan?

Did we all sign off?

Yeah, I think so. I remember, like, I remember us talking about that when we were on that, you know, when we were at the camp in Abu Dhabi, and it was like something that we spoke. I feel like we trialed it there or spoke about it, and it was like, I don't think it was like a blanket rule where everybody has to, but I think, I think most people did. Yeah, I think most of us did. Yeah, maybe we had it just in post.

Yeah, it was like personal choice.

Yeah, yeah, but I reckon most people do did end up coming off it.

Let's get to that next game then. So Pakistan, you score a century, have Nattie Silverbrunt as well, and all of a sudden we're seeing this side and their capabilities, you know, come to fruition in a World Cup match. So that must have given you a lot of confidence.

Yeah, it was really nice actually, like obviously shared a big partnership with Nattie. And yeah, like I said before, you know, important it was putting a strong performance in that game and Yeah, it was fun actually. Like, I feel like we just had a lot of fun as a group, and I particularly wanted us to go back to that, enjoying what we do, trying to show off, trying to really take the game on. And yeah, it was a really strong performance to get us in that position. And yeah, it was the start of kind of a bit of a roll, and the country started to get behind us as well. I definitely felt that momentum kind of build as we started to get through the competition. It sort of yeah, started to be spoken about a lot more. And obviously towards the back end, it was, was kind of everywhere. And the momentum that we had from, from the people in the country was really cool. Like, we weren't used to having big crowds back then. And yeah, the support was, was unbelievable. And, um, yeah, we just kind of got on that run, didn't we? And I don't know about you guys, but just, it's really felt like our competition. Um, I think the biggest one was probably that game at Bristol where we beat Australia. That was kind of when Yeah, there was real belief amongst the group. I think we had a few tight games that we just managed to get over the line and get the job done, really. And loads of different people throughout the side contributed at different times. So that was always a sign of a team that was going pretty well, um, when you managed to get over the line when, when you weren't playing at your best.

When you score a century though, as a captain, does that just take pressure off yourself in terms of you putting in for the team while having to think about your captaincy?

Yeah, massive relief. Like I think going into the competition, I was struggling a bit for form. I even got sent to an A-game to play against Sri Lanka, I think it was, to try and get a little bit of time in the middle because obviously I was coming back from that injury. And I remember seeing the psychologist actually, it was a couple of days before the first game, and just sort of voicing that I was, yeah, quite worried and stressed about my form and just wanted to kind of find a way to let go and be at my best really. And it was, yeah, a really good conversation for me and allow me to free up a little bit. And getting that century at Leicester was just like, yeah, okay, I'm into the competition, like I'm doing well. It's a lot easier to captain when things are going well for you. And yeah, I guess I've always been a skipper that wants to lead by example. So yeah, I was really delighted that I've been able to contribute and I guess get us back on track. And alongside Nat as well, she batted awesomely and she had a really big partnership there.

Yeah, I was just gonna say that I think like you can never underestimate like, um, how much that feeds off to the rest of the group as well. Like, when your captain's performing, and it's probably not just like the actual stats of Heather getting 100 in that game, it's more like leading with the bravery. I think that was the big turning point, is that like we, we obviously spoke about probably going into our shells, playing it safe, and then like, have just embodies like being courageous and being brave, and then obviously gets the rewards for that. And I think it's like, it's so infectious for a group, and I think that was yeah, like, it very much rubs off on, on every other member of the team.

Yeah, like, I kind of remember, like, going into the tournament, there was kind of a lot of what-ifs. Obviously Heather's injury, um, you know, Loz also got injured. I remember I also spoke to the sports psych about a load of what-ifs that might kind of derail me. I'd actually had a pretty good 12 months, um, kind of going into that, probably the first time I'd you know, almost cemented a place in the team. So I felt like this— the pressure had amped up a bit in terms of, you know, going into a World Cup with that expectation. And Robbo had sort of made like Loz and I's partnership like Twinfield and tried to make us like Greenwich and Haynes or whatever it was. And, um, pretty much all of my what-ifs went wrong in the first week. Like, I wasn't going to open with Loz, uh, my favorite bat broke. All these silly things I look back now that as a 25-year-old I felt was really, really important, um, kind of started to happen. So I was a bit kind of starting to doubt myself. And I think, yeah, seeing Heather and Nat kind of go, go and continue to play the way we had— and I think part of our tagline was trying to break boundaries, break records— and for them to go and do that in a World Cup game, um, you know, under pressure, losing kind of two early wickets, um, I think, yeah, epitomized what that side was about and kind of gave you that kind of continued belief that we'd built for 12 months. And seeing other people embodied it was definitely, yeah, desperate to do it myself type of thing.

So you get through Pakistan with that massive partnership between Heather and Nat, then on to Taunton against Sri Lanka. They post 204, you get the runs in around 30 overs, and then that's followed by a couple of games at Bristol. Now this is, this is quite a crucial point in the tournament, and Heather, you've mentioned that You always got really good crowds at Bristol. You post 373 in that first game against South Africa. Tammy, 148. Sarah Taylor, 147. What were your memories of that, Tammy?

Yeah, I think that was probably going back to the Sri Lanka game. I'm sorry to do that to you, but again, Sarah had been off for a year with her kind of anxiety struggles and had been really open with that, and she was just coming back into the World Cup as well as a bit of, you know, She had a year out, but she's back in the team, and that was her first 50 against Sri Lanka. And then for her to carry that form into the South Africa game, I think was a real testament to the work that she'd done. And, you know, she really showed her class. And whenever I batted with Sarah, it was always so much fun. Actually, on that day, at that point, she was very much, you know, 360 player with all the scoops and whatnot. And we were joking that I was doing all the scoops that day and she was hitting it kind of over mid-on, over mid-off, and yeah, just had a real good, good, good fun time. And I think, you know, whenever you batted with someone like her, it was so free scoring that, yeah, it was a lovely day out at Bristol.

I just reckon it was just like so dismissive and fun to watch as well. Like, as Tammy said, I think like it looked like they were just free and just having a great time and just so hard to defend. Like, it was so dominant. Yeah, really cool to watch.

Um, you're back at Bristol then for Australia, the old enemy, and a couple of big totals that you posted in the tournament already, but now you have to defend a relatively, well, below-par total of 259. I remember the end of that game, and I remember Katherine bowling actually, and the crowd getting behind you, and you just having to be on absolutely everything in the field, take your catches. It felt like that the crowd really got behind you. But at the halfway stage, Anya, what was the, the kind of mood in the camp? Did you believe that you could defend that total?

Yeah, absolutely. I think that, that game was definitely one of the games where we just kind of found a way to get across the line. I think it happened at— we obviously had some unbelievable innings that we've talked about, but there were lots of games, and that was clearly one where we had people, um, put in performances, I guess, that wouldn't necessarily get the headlines but went a huge way to So Jen, I think, got some really valuable runs at the end there. Katherine did as well. And then even in the field, it was kind of a sum of all of our parts in terms of everyone chipping in, picking up crucial wickets. And the game just kind of felt like it ebbed and flowed the whole way through. They'd have a bit of a partnership, we'd get a couple of wickets. They'd have a bit more of a partnership, we'd get a couple of wickets. And it just went that way pretty much, well, to the last ball. So I think we were definitely confident. We knew we'd have to perform well. And everyone would have to do their bit. And I think that was that game. And later on, kind of through the remaining games, definitely kind of set us up with, like I say, people just chipping in a couple of crucial overs here and there, that sort of thing that really made a difference.

What do you think was the key to beating Australia that day, Heather?

I think it was just holding our nerve, to be honest. Like, it was clearly a pretty big game. And I think we probably hadn't had loads of success against Australia previously in World Cups, which the press love bringing up, I think. Just holding our nerve in those big moments. Like, it was a super scrappy, tight game. Like Anya said, it ebbed and flowed, and just, yeah, you could feel kind of the tension. And it was just sort of like keeping our nerve and doing the things that we've done really well throughout the comp. I think our bowling attack was something we built up and got the combinations of for the last 12 months leading into the competition, and everyone kind of had quite a clear role and like complemented each other really well. So I think it was just sort of having that belief that we were going to get the wickets and it was going to go down to the wire. And then when it was getting close, like Jenny Gunn got her whiffs out, 30 miles per hour ball that were basically unhittable on a slowish wicket at Bristol. So yeah, the combination of the bowling attack, like Anya says, like some of the batting performance got the headlines a little bit, but the bowling attack was really steady and just functioned really well as a group. And they certainly helped us get over the line on that day.

You mentioned people getting wickets at key times. Alex Hartley seemed to have the knack of getting crucial wickets throughout the tournament as well.

Yeah, the Destroyer. She— it was like, I think Anya summed up perfectly that we were kind of, you know, always more than the sum of our parts. And Hartley had a knack of getting out the big batter of the opposition. I'm fairly certain she got Meg Lanning Susie Bates, uh, Harmanpreet Kaur. Um, it was almost like every single game, yeah, she got the, the big wicket and found that, that way. But I think also, just back to the batting, I think that Australia game, Jen and, and Katherine, and pretty much any time we attack too early, they're kind of 7, 8, 9, 10, Anya as well, massively got us out of trouble. You look at the final, skipping ahead again, but those contributions from, you know, the bowling all-rounders, um, at times completely got us out of the mess. And yeah, I think that's, that's a real testament to like the work they did behind the scenes as well.

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At this point, it feels like everything's coming together, clicking together really nicely. You win, you know, your remaining group games— New Zealand at Derby and then back to Bristol to take on the West Indies. You beat them too, through to the semi-final. You're back at Bristol, your favorite ground in this tournament. South Africa posted 218, you're chasing it down, you're absolutely cruising. You have a pretty good partnership, Sarah Taylor's there with you, Heather. And I remember this very clearly because in a knockout game it's never over till it's over. But I remember just on the tannoy, it's, you know, you guys are going along nicely, you're looking pretty fluid at the crease. And they just announced that the World Cup final is sold out at Lord's. And I remember going, "How amazing, England have to make the final." And then literally, as soon as someone comes out with that announcement, you lose Sarah Taylor to a run out, and then Heather Knight falls very quickly soon after that. And then you lose 6 wickets for 78 runs, and all of a sudden it's like, 'Oh my God, are they actually going to do this?' I don't know how you were feeling in the dressing room at the time, Tam, and Loz, obviously you've kind of been and gone, but it must have been quite a nervy moment for you.

No, I remember being sat in the dugout and I was on like the far right of the dugout, like in the corner, and I just remember feeling sick and I was thinking, I literally remember hearing that as well, and I was like, 'Oh my God, if we're not there,' this is just going to be an absolute disaster. But yeah, I just remember, like, I know it's like this real, like, you're just trying to, you're just trying to fake it, aren't you? You're trying to look all chilled, but like inside I do, I remember feeling just so sick that like the dream could, could be over sort of thing. And then on the flip side, you've sort of got like, I think Rothers the psych was in the dugout and like just trying to keep the language really strong and positive of you know, like getting over the line and doing what we need to do and trusting the players that are out there, with this, like, undertone of just, like, gut-wrenching anxiety, really, of, like, is it slipping from our grasp?

Yeah, I was up on the balcony, sat next to Sarah Taylor after she got out, and we had far too much nervous energy, and we were actually kind of, like, dancing in our seats every time the music came on, just because that was the only way we could do it, and I guess in a way it maybe looked a bit relaxed on that, that side of things. But then the minute the camera was off, I was going, Hartley, get your thigh pad off, you'll run faster. Um, and she's kind of dead scared in the, um, the, the doorway, number 11. Um, but I think, you know, we, we had full trust in— I think Jenny Gunn, again, absolutely outstanding. Thought Fran, um, actually, you know, played beautifully there and was really unlucky to get caught to one of her strengths, the reverse ramp. Um, but yeah, I think I always felt like it was very much doable. It was just that kind of— you just never know with the likes of Shabnam Ismail, Marizane Kapp, um, Dhani Van Niekerk. I think at the time was, you know, a brilliant captain that, um, we all had a lot of respect for. Um, but yeah, fortunately we had Annie, who is the, um, calmest person going, and probably the only one that wasn't nervous, to be honest.

I just still play that— I play that calm through the offside in my in my mind all the time.

I think the best thing is, like, we all knew that's what she's gonna do.

Yeah, apart from them.

She's gonna walk into the channel, she cannot be out LBW, and then she's gonna get back on it. Like, we just knew it.

Come on, Annie, take us through what was going through your mind. Can you remember how you were feeling when you were losing all those wickets in quick succession, obviously having to go get your pads on first of all?

I mean, I'm never thrilled when I'm having to put my pads on. It's never, it's never a, it's never a great sign.

Um, So that's why I'm quite a grumpy batter-upper on the whole.

You're kind of hoping you don't— you're not kind of, you're hoping you don't have to bat when you're down at 10. Like genuinely, like Jen and Fran kind of really set the game up for us. I thought they batted— those two batted brilliantly, needing sixes on a pretty tired, tricky surface, having lost a few wickets. They did all the hard running, and then I was fortunate that Ishmael bowled it in probably the one place I could hit it. If I'm being honest, if it was anywhere else, I might have struggled. But if there's one shot I had, it was just kind of I don't even know what to call it. The bond, just like a bond through the offside. Why they didn't have a deep cover, I never know. It's a terrible piece of captaincy and field setting. But if I could ask Ishmael to bowl it in one place, it would be there. So that was lucky.

It kind of eased a lot of tension for a lot of people that day, and it became kind of the shot that got played back over and over and over again throughout the tournament. Um, for you to get to that final, I always look at World Cups, and I always think the semi-final is, is the hardest. I don't know what you guys think. It's just getting yourself to the final in the first place.

It was the worst 40 minutes watching cricket I think I've ever had in my life. I just felt constantly sick. Um, talking to Jenny Gunn, it was, it was Val that day, wasn't it? So Jen's got an alter ego called Val who, um, when her bun's a bit skewiff, you know, it's, it's Val rather than Jenny. And, and Val was, was always going to get the job and she's a bit sassy. And then, yeah, obviously Anya getting that done.

Jen wouldn't have got the job done, but Val was definitely gonna get it done.

It was the helmet that let the hair through, and it was like, the hair's on the squiff and the bum's on the wonk. Val's out, guys, we're fine.

Val's out, we're good. And then, yeah, obviously Anya did what she did, and it was just the biggest release of tension. Do you remember Dr. Tam fell down the stairs?

Yeah.

Our doctor is quite a character. He was in the backdrop, and he jumped up to celebrate and promptly broke his head out of view and just fell down the stairs.

Do you not remember him on the Australia game where he was in the dugout next to the Australian dugout and they started?

I remember that.

He was a Sri Lankan guy with quite like a giggly laugh, and every time they lost a wicket, he'd be like, hee hee hee, they're gonna lose, they're gonna lose, like right next to the next in batter.

Oh, so good, so good.

That's what's so great about campaigns like this is all the different characters that, that come to play, um, and all the different superstitions as well. Where were you sat, Heather, watching those winning runs?

Uh, I was up on the balcony, so I was next to Sarah and Tammy, who have been very annoying, bundles of tension. And I like— I'm quite— I like to be quite calm and relaxed and not too much of a chaotic environment. So that was stressing me out a little bit. But, um, yeah, just trying to count down the runs. And I think Robbo, he had this thing in a chase when it was a big game, he'd knock the bottles over. So it'd be like each bottle would be 10 runs. So as soon as you got the 10 runs, a bottle would go down.

You hated that.

Yeah, I wasn't a huge fan, but on that day I was loving it. Right, get the bottle down, get the bottle down. Yeah, it was just an awful 40 minutes just knowing you couldn't do anything about the result and you knew what was at stake. And obviously being involved in that final, yeah, you knew it was going to be super special. And no one forgets— or everyone forgets the losing semi-finalist, don't they? So, um, yeah, just really special when we're able to do it. But there was always a belief there, I think. I think that definitely built throughout the competition. We'd won so many tight games, and it, it was like, nah, it's not going to happen in the semi-final. This is ours, ours to win.

I remember the 2009 semi-final, Australia posted 160 yard, which was unheard of at the time in women's T20 cricket, and I was sat next to Sarah Taylor during our run chase, so Claire Taylor and Beth Morgan, and she was writing on her thigh the number of runs that we needed to get, and she was just crossing it off on her thigh.

But she matured a bit when she was sat with me in 2017.

One of the all-time great run chases. But I remember that semifinal thinking, we have to win this. There's no other option. But it was one of the great days. Team song, were you playing it every time you won? Were you playing it every game?

Yeah, what was it? It got updated from your days-ish. We didn't have 6 minutes of "Take That, Never Forget," but it kind of— a chant had been developed, I think. And yeah, it's still very similar now, "We Are the Lions." So yeah, you give it— you sing it loud and proud every time you win for England. So yeah, the Bristol changing room bounced a bit after that one.

So, on to the final. I'd love to know, you know, the build-up, the days leading up, what was going through your mind? How were you feeling? How were you trying to manage that nervous energy of the big day? Anja, I'll start with you.

I mean, I love musicals and we're in London, so I think I watched at least two, possibly more.

Which one?

Definitely went to The Lion King, I think maybe Wicked. I think I went on both theatre outings. Just doing that. We had the earlier semi-final, so it was quite nice to be able to get down to London, watch a bit of the other semi-final kind of unfolding. There were— I don't remember training outside much. I think the weather was pretty rotten in the, in the kind of build-up, so we had a bit of a hit inside. But I think, I guess being somewhere like London's pretty, pretty good because there's so much to go and do. So I think people just went and found whatever they'd like to do and, and went and did that and tried to keep it pretty Pretty relaxed in the build-up. So yeah, I mostly just watched musicals. It was great.

Do you guys remember the night before the final? And well, like, we didn't know what to do with ourselves, and we were like spending hours trying to decide what we're gonna have for dinner, decide what film to watch. And then yeah, yeah, what was it? Saving Private Ryan, which is about 3 hours long. We started at 9 o'clock, and then we all had a panic. We're not gonna sleep. So we cut the movie off, everyone went to bed, and just sort of— well, I slightly lay there with, yeah, no chance of sleeping for a little while. Um, but yeah, we just didn't know what to do with ourselves. Like, the build-up's almost worse than the actual day because you're just like, oh, I want to get going. And there's just, yeah, that, that nervousness and tension. But I think we tried to enjoy it as well. Like, it was, it was really cool. Like, there's banners all over the place which you didn't really see back then for women's cricket. And yeah, lots of media commitments and things to do, but, um we just wanted to, to get going and get the final started.

My biggest— the thing I remember from the night before, I remember pulling my kit out of the laundry and it was really crinkled, and I was like, oh yeah, this will be fine. And I just remember Courtney being like, no, Loz, you can't play a World Cup final with your shirt like that. So I remember her doing the ironing the night before to make sure that, look, at least we look the part all, um, when it comes to it. I think I also remember cutting Stannie's hair.

Yeah, I was gonna say, I expect Courtney to cut my hair.

It was actually quite good because it sort of took your mind off it, and she's a bit of a clown, so she's quite entertaining. But my two things I remember: her doing my ironing to make sure that I didn't look like a bag of spanners, and opening up a salon in the bathroom.

Yeah, I don't really remember the night before. I remember watching Wicked, and I remember I didn't normally write much in team meetings. I actually wrote one thing in my notebook the night before. And back then I was a bit of a— had a bit of a hard shell, shall we say, a bit of a game face and a bit of an on-pitch persona. The girls would call it the strut, but, um, that, you know, it was necessary at the time. But that back then, I remember just writing kind of embrace everything about the day. And what I actually meant by that was for once kind of let the game face drop and enjoy that moment, because at that time I didn't know how many World Cup finals I'd get to play in, especially a sold-out game at Lord's. And I remember when we kind of announced that, you know, they were going to try and sell out Lords, and I remember a few of us actually laughing that there's no chance 26,000 are going to come and watch a game of women's cricket. And then for it actually to eventualize was, um, just incredible. But the one thing I do remember is, is driving to the game, and obviously I'd seen Test matches before where all the MCC members and everyone lines up, you know, three sides around Lords. And we kind of drove around and there was people in the queue from you know, we get there about 9 o'clock for an 11 o'clock start, and there's people there queuing kind of 2, 3 sides of Lords.

I just thought, wow, how ridiculous is that, that people are kind of coming out hours before the start, hours before the gates are open, um, just to watch us, which, um, yeah, I remember pulling in and it was, um, like people were like, you know, like doing the resale of ticket, like selling the tickets outside, like trying to get last minute tickets and it's like, this is crazy. Like, yeah, like I've never played in a game, or to be honest, like even been to many like female sports where that you're getting like resale demand, like people literally trying to get last minute tickets outside, which I remember that and that was just like holy, like the atmosphere was like, was building so early. But I was a bit like Tam, I honestly like, I didn't, to be honest, like because I was sort of battling with having a, like, a broken wrist in the comp. Like, I didn't really enjoy any, any of the games apart from the World Cup final. And like, I was a lot like Tam. I was like, this is like once in a career, once in a lifetime sort of thing. It was like, don't let it pass you by and not enjoy it. And I think I honestly said, like, I honestly always say that, like, it was the, the one game of the World Cup World Cup that I felt like was actually fun and enjoyable and like really present to what was going on.

Do you remember how you felt walking out?

Yeah, like, and I, I like, we obviously, we obviously went out to bat first, and I just remember thinking like, in a World Cup final, the tone is so important. And like, me and Tam obviously knew that, you know, like I was going out as an opening pair. I feel like if you get off to a good start and sort of set the tone in a final, you just get like the rest of the changing room can just sort of breathe a sigh of relief and just be nice and calm. If it's a bit erratic and you get off to a bit of a stinker, then it can, it can quickly transpire. I just remember thinking like, just be really calm and, and, you know, portray a really like, I don't know, like just some good composure from the, from the change, like for the changing room.

Yeah, I think, um, I think we, we obviously win the top— well, we end up batting first. I can't actually remember what happened at the toss. I think we won. But we're there at the kind of singing the anthem, and that's the bit that normally kind of I'm really like belting out, strong game face. But the way we honored the women from the, the 1973, the 1993 team, they finally got their medals kind of 20, 25 years later or more. And they were up in the box, and it was kind of the first time hospitality been put on. And then we had the minute's silence for Rachel Heyhoe Flint, who'd obviously been an absolute trailblazer pioneer for the women's game and Women's World Cups, and obviously she'd passed away 6 months before. And then Eileen Ash, Heather's good yoga mate, ringing the bell, the 5-minute bell. And that's the closest I've come to tears singing the national anthem when I was going, I've got to go and open the batting in a World Cup final here, like, pull yourself together. But for me, I think that's probably the proudest moment of my life, that that day it was not about the 11, the 15, going on to that pitch trying to win a World Cup final. It was about any woman that's ever played for England and any woman that will ever play for England in the future. And that moment, and then the first ball of the game, just stuck with me forever. I think, um, back then I batted too, and Loz took the first ball. But the way that the crowd kind of rumbled away as Jhulan Goswami kind of took her incredible run-up in, that's kind of like an aeroplane taking off. And then there's just that moment of silence And then a moment where like only Loz, I, and the 11 on the pitch know what's happened, and then the crowd reacts to it. And that split second of silence, just for me, is like a feeling you just can never get again. It was like a coliseum. It was just honestly like the best feeling in the world.

Beautifully said, Tam. Um, let's throw it to the right to the end then. Come on. Um, India needed 38, 7 wickets in hand. Heather Anya, Heather, firstly, what's going through your mind? And then Anya, I know you felt like you weren't really bowling that well earlier on in the game, but you brought it together at the most critical point of the match. So Heather, firstly you, and then Anya, how did you do it?

Well, the original plan was to get a couple of overs out of Anya and then bring Katherine on, actually. But yeah, Anya just had this kind of look in her eye. I didn't need to say anything to her. It was almost just let her go. She's like, give me the ball, no nonsense, don't say anything to me, don't distract me, let me get on with my job. I'm going to bowl straight and bowl the odd slower ball. We're not losing this, give me the ball sort of thing. So it was just letting her go really. Like, I didn't do anything at all. Anya just ran the show. She's very calm, even when Jenny dropped the World Cup unfortunately, and she said, nope, give me the ball, I'll get it done. And she did.

I think when I came back on for that spell at the end, Vaida, I think, chipped a wide-ish ball over point for 4 and a bit of a full ball over mid-off for 4. And then I think probably from that point on, almost just went as simple as possible. So I kind of thought, well, I'm gonna bowl slower balls. Vaida was trying to be really attacking, so I thought, I'm just gonna set my field straight and bowl slower balls to the batters that are in. And then if we get a wicket and new batters come in, just try and bowl full and straight basically, or hard length and straight, and try and make the batters make a mistake. It was probably as simple as that, to be honest.

Could you hear everything around you, or were you just so zoned in?

Um, like yes and no, as in like I could, I guess, hear noise, um, and stuff like that. But yeah, I think mostly— well, after the first two balls got hit for four probably thinking, oh God. But then, yeah, I think once it kind of got going, obviously Poonam missed the straight one, which always helps. There was absolutely nothing special about that ball at all. Then obviously Hartley got a wicket in the next over, so kind of started to get a bit of momentum building. And then we got 2 wickets in the next over. Obviously got Vader, which was a massive wicket, and then Julab with a ball that was not what I was trying to bowl. So it just felt like in those kind of 3 overs they lost 4 wickets, and it just felt like kind of from 3 overs prior probably felt like we were going to lose to getting 4 wickets in 3 overs. And I remember just thinking like, we're not going to lose. And I think for us, having had those games through the tournament that were really tight, that we'd found a way to kind of get over the line, whereas India had either won really comfortably or lost really badly. There was kind of no— they didn't have those close games they didn't have that, um, yeah, those games throughout the tournament where I felt like we did. So it kind of felt a bit like we were a bit more kind of battle-hardened than they were at the, the kind of real crunch end of that, the real crunch end of that game.

I love that the girl gets 6.46 in a World Cup final and didn't mean any of it. Some of it, like, it's just so— it's just a fluke, was it? That epitomizes like what Anya and others were about. You know, I was giddy as anything charging about at deep cover, but the people in charge at the moment, yeah, cool, calm, collected, and executing under pressure. It's unbelievable.

Your final reflections, and then throwing it to another World Cup— what does it take to win a World Cup? But do you remember the kind of tribal feel of the atmosphere? I mean, I was pitchside ready to come on and do an interview and the post-match and everything like that. And I just could, I could not, I was just looking at the crowd and then looking at you guys and then looking at the crowd. And it was like, you know, the Indian fans were getting up and about, then it'd be the England fans, and it was just so loud. I'd never heard anything so loud for a women's game before. It was just one of the most incredible feelings to be part of Laws that day.

Yeah, I think Heather had a few issues getting hold of a few of us on the boundary a couple of times. But yeah, it was absolutely unbelievable. I think it's probably— I remember Jenny Gunn running past me and going, 'Oh, it's like the IPL, this is ridiculous!' And it was so loud, the atmosphere was incredible.

Final reflections, and what does it take to win a World Cup?

I think it's a real squad effort. I think, you know, being more than the sum of your parts and everyone contributing, but not necessarily just the standout performances. It's, you know, a full collective effort. And even just a diving stop that means the next ball's a wicket, the right batter on strike, makes such a difference. And that collective effort, I think—

yeah, I think I agree with Tammy. I think it's about being connected and just being courageous. Like, I think when we were courageous, that's when we, like, that's when we really started to turn things around. But like, being connected and like just doing what the team needs before yourself I think that was like, if I think about that whole journey up until that point, it was just like, it was just a constant journey of what, what needs to be done to get the job done. Um, and doesn't matter who it is, it's just about, yeah, doing what needs to be done from, for the sister next year, really.

Mine would be belief and win the big moments.

And yeah, similar to Heather, just, you just gotta find a way to get over the line. In whatever situation you, you find yourself in. If you win every game by one, one run, you win the World Cup.

You make it sound so simple. That's simple.

Speaking from, speaking from years of retirement.

Um, ladies, thanks very much for your time. It's been an absolute pleasure. I hope you've enjoyed it.

Thanks, guys.

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My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching. Argentina '78, the ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Harry Hahn scoring goals from miles out, and always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch. What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the color. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football. The FIFA World Cup 2026.

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