The Art of Captaincy

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Hello, welcome to the TMS Podcast, and we've been looking forward to this for a long time. We're talking about the art of captaincy. Leading England especially makes you one of the most recognizable faces in sport. It brings with it all manner of responsibility and scrutiny and joy and probably a little bit of despair. So for the next hour, we're gonna look at how you manage different personalities in the dressing room, what marks someone out as a future England captain, how do you cope when it comes to an end? Michael Vaughan and Sir Alistair Cooke both with us. Good evening.

Good evening.

Let's just start here because I can't think of a better place. Alistair, what makes a great captain?

A captain who wins. When everything gets out in the wash after all the stuff you talk about, it's a captain who wins the big series. And I think over a course of time, you know, the best captains do that more consistently. Of course, there's a lot of things which go into that. The fact that captaincy, you're only as good as the other 10 players or the other 15 players you've got also in those 3 or 4 years that you are captain, but ultimately it is about winning.

Yeah, I mean, I agree. I mean, it's not necessarily that you start off as a winner as a captain, but you have that moment where you kind of, you get the job. I mean, I can only speak from my own experience that, you know, getting a job like captain in England and even go beyond captain in the main England side, you know, captain in a Yorkshire 15s or an England Under-17s. Fundamentally, you set out to try and play well, but you want to win. And you only really get that respect from your peers. You generally get the job because you're respected in the dressing room, but you get the ultimate respect as a captain when you win games of cricket. And by the way, I won many games that I had no real impact on myself.

I thought you were going to say no real respect.

No impact, but people say, oh, what a great job the captain did. I said, I didn't really do much that game. Put a fielder here or there and made the odd bowling change. But fundamentally, Cookie's right, over a period of time, whenever you get a job, whatever your team you're captaining, it's all about winning a bit of silverware, winning the major moments and creating that atmosphere that, you know, I always think you judge your captain when it gets hot and the game gets tight. Can the team play? You know, do they look scared or do they look like they can just play the moment and You know, the real good captains have a real skill in making sure, it's not a calmness, it's just a control and a real clarity for what the players have to deliver when the pressure's on.

Everybody has opinions, Alistair, on who the England captain should be, what the England captain should do. And it'll be interesting to touch on bits of advice that you both got before being England captain. But I'm also curious as to whether there's anything you wish you'd been told before you were England captain, maybe something you didn't expect, even having thought about it and probably dreamed about it.

Well, actually, I don't think I did dream about being England captain. I don't think many people do. I can safely say when I was growing up, it was all about just trying to play for England. I mean, that again is even more far— is just as far-fetched as a 15, 16-year-old. But even as a 22, 23-year-old, when I was in the team playing under Michael the Star and Freddie, You know, it wasn't about becoming England captain. It was becoming the best, trying to win games for England, and then, you know, trying to be the best batter you could become. And then the captaincy kind of gets kind of given to you at a stage. You kind of, you do know it's coming because you get involved a bit more in the leadership stuff. And I was vice-captain when Strauss was captain, so it's kind of almost inevitable if Strauss went that I would become captain. I think The thing which I look back on now, there's a couple of things. The first thing, nothing prepares you to becoming England captain. You can read all the leadership books you want, you can read, you can go and speak to as many as old captains as you want, you can read Mike Brearley's Art of Captaincy and it, nothing makes a difference until you are thrown in that job the day they offer it to you. Because, and you can captain your county as well, and I don't think that makes a difference either. It might make you slightly more comfortable on the field in certain situations, but captain Essex or compared to captain England, it is so different. So I think every captain learns on that job and you're thrown into a job which is amazing. It's the best job I ever did. It's the hardest job I ever did. And there's so many things which went right, so many things which went wrong. Throughout, I think probably the thing I did learn is actually the saddest thing about it is probably the best leader as a captain and as a person, you develop so much in the 4 years or 5 years I did it, was actually the day you hand the cap back and say, actually, I don't want to do it anymore. That's probably when you're at the best as a captain, but maybe not for that team. At the moment, I felt I kind of ran out of steam, and I think the team needed a fresh impetus. But as me personally, as a leader, I felt I'd learned everything through those 5 years and I was probably ready to go and captain a different team or a different style, but sorry, a different set of players, but certainly not the players I was captain at the end, but of that England. I think they had enough of me. But yeah, that's what I took from him.

Yeah, I'll be honest, you kind of wing it. I mean, it sounds— you get given the job and you think, right, how am I going to go about captain in England? I remember I was petrified walking into I think it was at Lord's first, I'm talking that, you know, 2003 I got the one-day job and at that time the one-day job, I'm not disrespecting the role but it didn't matter a great deal. You know, it was all about the Test captaincy. I then get the Test captaincy and I always remember walking into a team room at Lord's, we were playing South Africa just a few days after we drew against South Africa at Edgbaston. Nasser resigned on a Monday, I think we start on the Thursday. And it must have been the Tuesday or the Wednesday night that I walk into a team room with all these senior pros and I had no clue what I was going to say. So I just winged it.

What did you say?

I just said, come on, we've got to get together, play the way that you all can play, trust your game. If we get the chance to get on top, you know, let's make sure that we're playing in a way that the crowd would like to watch. And then a week later, I think we got hammered in that first game, absolutely destroyed.

I should have thought about what you're going to say.

Yeah, honestly. And then the week after, I think I had to give a rollicking or two because there was a little bit of lateness and, you know, I wanted a real disciplined team. I mean, I want a flamboyant team, but I want a real disciplined side to deliver training right. I wanted everyone to be a bit fitter. I think I probably mentioned that to one or two of the senior pros that I didn't think were fit enough. I wanted to be more dynamic in the field. Not that I was the perfect example, but all the kind of things that everyone dreamed of that a team would play like. I probably said that early in my reign in a team meeting, but it was my dad gave me the best piece of advice. You know, Cookie's right, you can read all the captaincy books you want, but fundamentally it's about you, it's about you triggering a group of people into doing something and making sure that they can cope with the pressure. But my dad came to me after the first week or so when he could see that I was trying to be this England captain, he said, look, I've captained Worsley Cricket Club Third Eleven. Used to bat number 8 bold, real dodgy inswingers. So I can't really give you a huge amount of advice on cricket, but I've managed people all my life. And he said, make sure you manage the person, not the player. So make sure you know who all your players are, you know, in terms of the personalities, you know, what they're like off the field, on, obviously in training, everything about what motivates them. Try and find out what they get up in the morning for. Some you know, play the game for numbers. They want to get as many runs as possible to make sure that they've got the numbers in the bank. Some play for cash. Whatever the motivation was, I had no problem with, but I needed to find out from the players. And yeah, that was the best piece of advice that I got to make sure. Look, it took me a few late nights in the bar getting to know one or two of them, but that's probably the best piece of advice I got was to make sure that I knew the person and then the kind of player looked after itself. Herself.

Alistair, can you remember then the first time you would have to have sort of dished out a bit of a rollicking and how natural or unnatural that felt for you?

Yeah, I can. I can't remember the first time. I remember giving a rollicking in Abu Dhabi quite late on. It was really, really warm. We turned up in Abu Dhabi and it was closer to 50 degrees than 40 degrees and I think Bolt, First net session, the guys were bowling like 2 or 3 balls and then that was it. They had to go and sit down. It was so hot. And then the second session was the same and I just thought we were a shambles. I thought, you know, we had a game, we had a warm-up game about 2 days later. Like the physios weren't having the— do you know what I mean? It was like, it was hot and we just basically— I gave everyone a rollicking that day because I just thought, well, we know it's hot, we just have to get on with it. We're gonna have to find a way and actually improve. It wasn't really my style to give group stuff like that, that just wasn't me. I think the hardest thing, going back to when you're first captain, as Vaughanie said, like walking into the room, we actually, I think we went to London as a group and I was expected to give a speech and a flower said, you've got to address the side as a captain. Again, you write a load of stuff down, I kind of read it word for word, probably very robotic. I look back now, I think almost cringing at what I actually wrote down and actually said. I'm sure I've got that piece of paper somewhere. Because you get asked what style of captain you're going to be from the coach and the media. You walk into that first meeting, what style of captain? As Vaughan said, winging it. I was like, well, actually, I don't know what style of captain I'm going to be. But, you know, his dad was saying, give him advice. The advice I think I learned, and a lot of people say, you cannot, cannot be anyone else but yourself. You know, people say, what style of captain are you going to be? I don't know, but someone above me in the leadership role that they're given has seen something in seen you, or 2 or 3 people have seen something in you that makes they think that you will be good at leading this next team, the team for the next 3 or 4 years. And that's not for me to say, it's not for me to work out. It's kind of, they're looking at you and going, well, you'll be good at the role and you'll develop into it. So that was the worst bit about it, was that initial feeling like you had to speak and you feel like you had to give this kind of Churchillian speech. And speak, and that's not me, that's not who I was. And actually, as I got older, I realized that, and you feel like you didn't have to do that. And actually speaking in the dressing room rather than writing down notes is actually what I wanted to say, and I got better at just saying 2 or 3 sentences because actually after 2 or 3 sentences, most of the lads have switched off and forgotten anyway. So you have 40 seconds, 50 seconds of something and saying that you might land one of them which might make a point. But at the beginning, I was obsessed with speaking by public speaking and speaking to the group and actually you don't need to be, you don't have to do that, it's more natural and more authentic was certainly the way to be.

Can a captain say I don't know, Michael?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean I think it's important to realise what, it just takes a little bit of time and experience to understand the role and you know what you need to do as a player yourself. I found that the hardest bit is playing myself, you know, making sure that I was looking after my own game and scoring the runs that I'd been scoring before I got the captaincy. I spent— I look back now and think, well, if I had my time again, I probably wouldn't spend as much time managing everyone else. And it wasn't just the other 10 players or the other 14 or 15 that were in the squad. It's all the management. It's managing up as well, making sure that everything's right above you in terms of planning for the next tour and the kit, everything. I tried to get involved with everything because I wanted everything to be absolutely spot on. And I look back and think, you know, I should have stayed completely out of the way of that and just focus purely on my game because I look at particularly now and I was very fortunate as well, I had an incredible backroom team, you know, brilliant coaches, it was all very organised, everything was done for you so really I didn't really need to really focus too much on that side of the role and it was just a matter and speaking in front of the group I did now and again but not a great deal but I was very keen on just making sure that the individuals within the side knew exactly what I expected from them. You know, I'd give some examples. Kevin Pietersen, when he came into the side, I wanted Kev to be a flamboyant player. You know, I wanted him to take the opposition on, and if that meant that he got out in the '90s every now and again for trying to hit a six, I didn't care because that's the kind of player that I wanted him to be. I wanted him to, you know, make the opposition bowlers shiver. You know, Freddie Flintoff, I wanted him to entertain us, never mind the crowd. I would say to Freddie, Freddie, remember, we want to be entertained on the balcony. So when you go out to bat, we want to see you whacking out the park. That's the style of player that you are. And when you play at your best and you're smiling and you're enjoying it, that's when you play your best cricket. So I was more a captain that just spoke to the individuals, really. I'm sure I made one or two speeches. I didn't like Cookie. I can't remember making a speech and the players suddenly, you know, 20 minutes later producing a bit of magic on the field. I don't think it was that kind of speech. The huddle. You know, this little huddle. I brought that in actually because I felt that the dressing room had so many people in it and I wanted just a small moment with just the 11, which was away from the dressing room. Because in a dressing room, you know, you've got 4 or 5 players that potentially aren't playing. So are they listening? Probably not. All the coaching staff, are they going to listen to everything you say? Probably not. You've got the scorer in the corner, you've got the masseuse, you've got the trainer. They're not really listening. So I just felt that a huddle was important for 2 reasons. And I hear it a lot in people in sports, oh, it's a load of nonsense, the huddle. I actually think it's quite important because you get the group of 11 players, whatever the sport is, just at that moment together. And I would always say to one or two other players within the team, and it could be anyway, probably Cookie early in his career, I would have said, just do the huddle, you know, give us a little bit of, and by the way, most of it was a joke or a bit of fun or now and again a little bit of a trigger of what we're trying to do in that session or at the start of the game. I felt that was quite important for the team just to have that moment together and it was always just on the outfield and more often than not Matthew Hoggard would make an animal noise and try and make us laugh and that was pretty much it.

I remember that one, Vaughan used to say, "Don't ask me, don't ask me," and then about 5 minutes before you asked him, God, you start dreading talking in that huddle. It's mental, isn't it? Like actually you shouldn't do it but as a young player talking in front of all those players, became a real thing. And I was like, don't ask me, don't ask me 5 minutes before. But just going back to what the first question you asked Skipper just a minute ago was, is there anything you didn't mean at the beginning you wish you'd known? I was like, I was such a stubborn— well, I was, I probably am still quite a stubborn person. I kind of— my batting was all about being stubborn and doing it the way I felt best to do it myself. So I didn't really trust many other people with my game. I'd work it out by myself, whether it was because I felt that was the only way you know, you're the only person goes out the back. And as a captain, I, I threw my first 18 months, I did that, and I wasn't— I didn't listen to many other people in the dressing room. I did, but I wasn't ears to outside of the dressing room. And, and I, I know looking back, there's so many good people around English cricket and people who've got so much experience of captaincy, and also just they see games in different ways to what I saw. And I think the first 18 months, although we were actually, we won quite a lot of games of cricket in that first 18 months. I was— I didn't listen to anyone else outside the bubble, and it became stressful that way. And I wish I did. I wish I was more open just to bouncing ideas off people in that first 18 months. But I look back, and if I hadn't done that first 18 months of being stubborn and doing it my way, then— because that's kind of that character, I was that character— if I went straight into being a captain who listened to everyone else, then actually I might have diluted it anyway, do you know what I mean? So I had to go through that period to suddenly work out the balance of who do you listen to and being open to listen to other certain ideas and being able to bin them. So it is such a learning process as a person, the captaincy.

How did the two of you deal as England captains with criticism and scrutiny from former England captains? It's one of the unique things about cricket and it kind of happens to a degree, it depends who becomes a pundit in football and who doesn't. Every England captain ends up being a football pundit. Most former England cricket captains do end up on radio or on TV or in the written press. Did you find it difficult? Did you find it easy? Do you look at it through the same lens now having moved into this sphere?

Yeah, I mean, at the start, I think the first 4, 4 and a half years I did the job, I actually was quite cool about it. But it gets you eventually, and you suddenly start to get wound up by things that you can't control. And the longer you do the job— it— I'm— we work in the media now. The longer that someone does the job, the more you get bored of that person doing the job. It's like, oh, we want a bit of change. So the knives get a little bit sharpened. It always happens. So when the knives— and the knives came out for me, and I got a bit upset with one or two things, and that's That's kind of natural. You know, the best piece of advice I would give a captain, and it's hard because, you know, you're bound to hear things or read things that, and particularly now with social media, I think it's a lot harder because the fans can have their say. You know, I think when I was England captain, the only way the fans could really have their say would be in a phone-in on a Saturday night, and there wasn't many of those in cricket. There wasn't social media. There was the odd letter, you know, written into the tabloid or two, but it was down to the cricket journalists and that was it. And obviously the advice I would give to an England captain would be just be nice to them, honestly, because we work with them, Cookie. If you're really nice to them and you buy them a drink every now and again, buy them a bit of dinner, take them golfing, take them for a game of paddle.

You manage us, that's what you do.

Honestly, yeah.

Yeah, I think that's a good thing. That's clever.

Yeah, what's the movie? Roadhouse. You watch the movie Roadhouse, the bouncer. And he's just dead nice to everybody, even people coming at him with glasses. You know, he's gonna get smashed over the back of the head with a bottle and he's just really nice to everyone. That'd be the advice. And it's easier said than done because as I said, particularly now, you're gonna see things and it gets to you a lot quicker than it did in our time. We used to have to wait, I guess, for the Sunday papers. That was the kind of day where you felt that there might be one or two things said that you wouldn't get necessarily in the week. Whereas now, I think it's a lot harder because things get said instantly. There's all these clips on social media. This will go out as a clip, no doubt. This show gets put out as a podcast. So it's a lot harder in this era for a captain or a player. But what I will say is, from my experience, once I got into that position where I was getting a little bit wound up by what someone said or what someone had written, That's when I started to falter as a captain. I started to go a bit downhill.

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It's kind of inevitable, Alistair, that we'll talk about the current England Test captain Ben Stokes in a second. But I think this all links in quite nicely actually, because when I sort of listen to Ben Stokes, as someone who obviously doesn't know him and you guys know him, he always sounds like he's wearing his heart on his sleeve and he's saying exactly what he thinks. So I'm just curious whether you two as England captains, Alistair, always felt able to say exactly what you thought, or whether sometimes or a lot of the time you tempered it.

Well, I think a lot of the time you have to temper it because certainly the last thing you ever want to do as a captain of a group of players was ever become a headline of criticizing your team. Like, it's the most natural thing. Like, you lose a game, you go out and you have to do 3 or 4 interviews pretty much live. And, you know, and they're very good interviews, I have to say, even Aggers is good. That they're trying to get you to They're trying to get you to say something and you're just protecting it. You're just trying to protect your group of players. So yes, I found a lot of the time you ended up being defensive, especially when you lost. And it was a hard place to be because, you know, we didn't bowl well, but you're going to suddenly— or you didn't bat well, you can say that, but you're not going to start singling out a player who's out of form or, you know, or played a bad shot because that would be the headline. That would be the thing. You do, so yeah, you absolutely, you were, you spent most of your time trying to just duck and dive the interview because actually for me, that was almost the least, I tried to give the least energy to the media as possible and it probably, I probably came across badly in that sense because I was trying to save my energy for A, the team and B, trying to score runs. So I would just try and be almost as cold as I could because I didn't want to waste energy. Now looking back thinking, God, I probably didn't come across as well as I could have done in those periods because I just didn't give the energy. The press conference the day before used to just be like, right, I'm just gonna, you know, it was at 12:30 to 1:30, just try and get through it, try not to use as any mental energy as I can, and probably did come across as pretty dull in those interviews because, you know, for me it was irrelevant what I said as long as I didn't say anything stupid, just because I wanted to make sure that come tomorrow I was as fresh as I could be because as Vaughan says, eventually it gets It does get you. It does get you because it is an all-encompassing job.

Is it the who that can get you? Like, if you get criticism from a specific person, and it might be because you massively respect them, it might be because you don't, or is it the kind of thousand cuts thing? Is it the volume or who is actually making the criticism?

No, I'll be dead honest, I was always put back by someone that hit the nail on the head. Someone who had written or said something, I went, oh, they've got us, they've got us, they've got it right. That's where, you know, I was affected by that because I knew they'd hit the nail on the head. And that's, you know, this part of the job of managing your own emotions. I think that's a really important part of being a captain is making sure that, you know, I look back and one or two things did wind me up, particularly down the back end. And you think, I look back now, I'm 51 years old, why did that wind me up? You know, I just think, well, that's just the game. Just fine, just go and hit a few balls and catch a few and prepare for the match. But I did get wound up by one or two things. And, you know, you mentioned Ben Stokes. I saw him in the winter and, you know, he's an unbelievable captain. But I think he would be the first to admit that in the winter he was wound up by a lot of what the media said, you know. And fundamentally, I know it's easy to say from behind the microphone, but you can only control your own emotions and your own game, your own team. You know, you can't, you can't have any say in what any of us say or what anyone writes. You know, and as I said before, I'm not saying you have to be nice to everyone and like, you know, buy them cookies and make sure that, you know, they're all in a good spirit when you— but I just think being really kind of good with the media is a really important part of the job. You know, being good, being open, Honest is fine. You know, I think we're in it. We're in an era now, Cookie, where there's going to be a headline anyway. So you might as well, you know, come out and just speak the truth or what you believe is right at that time. And if there's a headline made because of what you've said, I wouldn't be too worried about that these days. I just think we're in an era where everything is a headline because of social media. It's the one part of the job that, you know, the actual tactical side of being a captain, I look back and And particularly a young captain might come and say, oh, you know, what do you reckon as a captain? I said the tactical side is the last thing I worry about. You know, the particular captaining, and there's many things that I think come before the tactics. Respect in the dressing room, you have to have that. You do have to be a good speaker. You know, you do have to be a good speaker because you've got to obviously, you've got to speak to your team, you've got to speak to the media. But I don't think, I don't know if you did, coach, I didn't have any media training. Before I got the England captaincy.

I think that's a good thing though.

Yeah, yeah. But I just think one or two— I think these younger players now, I think with, with, uh, even through the county game, I do think they get a little bit of training. I'm not saying you need a lot, but I, I think it'd be for all players, not just the captain. I think it'd be all, um, good for all players to just get, just get a little bit, just get a little bit of training.

No, we did. I swear we did a bit, certainly the academy. This was in 2000 6, I reckon, or 5.

What did you do?

Well, just this guy came in and just started— I can't remember his name, it's probably pretty bad of me, I can't remember who it was— but we did some mock interviews, we did a few of those like down the camera bits, and you kind of watched it again and you saw how the habits you did.

Or was that— and it's— you saw with England?

No, England, I swear, as an England Academy, we did some training.

Yeah, I didn't go on the Academy.

Just— you're too old. Um, the, uh, The bit like you're saying about headlines, but I know what you're trying to say. But if, you know, say Ollie Pope this winter was struggling a bit, and, you know, I'm sure at a certain stage, you know, Stokesy would have been asked about Pope's form. And there's no way, like, you could be honest, too honest there. You know, he could clearly say he wasn't scoring the runs he was. Stokesy then, as a captain, then can't just go, yeah, he's— yeah, I'm really worried about him, he's not scoring runs. You have to give the answer of, yeah, well, he's looking good in the nets, you know, I back him, he's been such a— you know, even if he doesn't believe it. So there is that element of having to play the media game as well.

What did you think, Alistair, when Ben Stokes made— because we talk about headlines— when he made that comment about like, no dressing room that I'm captain of is a place for weak men, that felt at that moment to be a really significant thing for him to say. But as a captain, can you do that? Because you're not talking about one person and you're not saying this dressing room is full of weak men. You're giving a specific example, but not about any one individual.

Yeah, I think, you know, that was— you spoke about, well, Skipper just spoke about how emotional he got at certain stages in that, in the winter, under a huge amount of pressure. That was an emotional statement where, I think everyone in that dressing room would have sort of noticed and gone, what does he actually mean by that? Does he mean that I'm weak? Does he mean that we're soft? I think it was a message that he tried to get across to his group of players that they needed to toughen up and win the crucial moments better because actually that's in that series, you know, Australia won the bigger moments better than England. Actually, this England side under Ben Stokes the last I would say last year or so in big moments. They haven't won enough of them, hence they haven't won the big series. I think that's quite an obvious statement. And I think he was kind of using the public forum, and I trust Stokes has thought about it, the public forum to get a big message across that he wasn't happy with how things, what he had been seeing from his team. Now, whether he got his choice of words absolutely right, I don't know. You're going to have to ask him that. But I think it was a public message that he wanted his group of players to see. It's going to be intriguing, isn't it, in the next couple of months with his leadership in particular. You know, we saw a bit of a clash between— not a clash, but, you know, just what you're reading between him and McCullum, the coach, and how he was speaking, and then what Ben was saying and how Ben was playing, which was very different to what Ben was playing 2 years ago. And I think that as a leader is going to be an intriguing side plot this summer of how England do go about it and how Ben wants his side to play again.

Well, I think the most important partnership in a cricket team is the captain and the coach. That is absolutely crucial. If that is a strong one, and I'm not saying that behind closed doors that they have to be on the same page, but as soon as they walk into the dressing room, they have to be on the same page. As soon as they walk into the media, they have to be on the same page, whatever that page is, whatever they agree upon. And it was very clear for me in the winter that the connection wasn't quite the same. The connection up until last summer—

What told you that?

Well, as Alice has just mentioned, the messaging was different from the captain and the coach, and that connection has to get back on track. And that's, you know, I look at my time with Duncan Fletcher, you know, we weren't exactly the same characters, but he knew exactly what role he could deliver, and I knew the kind of role that I was going to deliver. And that's when you get, you know, Nasser Hussain and Duncan Fletcher had a great relationship. Nasser's completely different to me, but he still could work in a really professional, good way with Duncan Fletcher. And I thought Duncan was excellent as a coach because he was— and I think it's still the case where the coaches will say, okay, we prepare the team, and by the way, from around Wednesday, when the game starts on Thursday, captain, it's over to you. You captain the team, and whenever you need something, whatever that is, whether it's a chat or you want us to deliver a team chat, you just come and tell us what you need, because from Thursday morning, it's all over to you as the captain. I hope it's still the way that's the case, but that connection between the captain and the coach is the absolute crucial one.

We're talking about the art of captaincy on Five Live with Sir Alistair Cooke and Michael Vaughan. Let's zone in a little bit more specifically on Ben Stokes then, Michael. What do you admire most about him, captain to captain?

Well, he's— tactically, he's very, very good. I mean, I've just said that tactically is the last thing that I kind of look at, but he's brilliant. You know, I don't think any of the team got the facets quite right in Australia, but He generally reads the game really well and he's clever enough to get into the opposition psyche with some of his field settings. I go back to his first 17 games where they won 13 and Jack Leach played in most of those and the way that he captained Jack Leach was wonderful. He'd bring the field in, try and get the big shot. I think Jack got 6 for against New Zealand at Headingley and it wasn't spinning square but he captained it brilliantly. He just kept on dangling the carrot. Clearly he's a captain I look at and he's a— you know, Alistair was brilliant at going on the field and playing, you know, follow me, you know, that kind of captain. He was as good as any opening the batting and Ben's that kind of character as well. You know, he'll never ask anyone to do something that he can't do himself. You know, I think it, you know, really helps when you're an all-rounder as well, you know, because you can play all the different facets of the game. You can obviously create impact with the ball. You know, up until recently where he was, you know, I think they were all a bit confused of how to play in the winter. So you kind of put that to one side up until the end of last summer. It was very clear that Ben was willing to play this expansive game and, you know, he could do it as well as any. So he can obviously lead by example. Tactically, he's very, very good. And up until the winter, again, I thought he'd handled the media brilliantly. You know, he had one or two blips in the wind, but all captains do when you're away from home in Australia and it's going wrong. I don't recollect an England captain who's been to Australia and had a tough time and you get to the end of the tournament, oh, they've dealt with the media brilliantly.

Yeah, I'm with you.

You know, it's just the nature of the beast when you're down under and it's not going quite right. But he delivers very well with the media. He's obviously a brilliant player. He's got the respect and actually the tactical side I was really surprised by. I thought he'd be a brilliant kind of lead, like, be Botham style, you know, come follow me. But it's been his tactical analysis and also his empathy to his players. I know he came out with that one comment in Brisbane about obviously didn't want any weak players in his dressing room. I think he has a huge amount of empathy for all his players, and that's really important that you've got that loving. And it's not necessarily in the dressing room that you don't spray them every now and again, but I think publicly he's got a real kind of warmth to the way that he manages his players.

I've been impressed with his, again, up until this winter, is the courage of his convictions in his idea, his idea of how he wanted his side to play. And it was slightly different to every other captain. And actually, that takes a lot of nerve to go and do that. That's actually real leadership. He's come in and I don't know whether that was absolutely by design when he first took over, when he was given the captaincy and he was asked the first question in the media Oh, what style of captain you're going to be, but very quickly he had the nerve and the courage to change how he wanted his team to play. So I admire that as much as I admire all the other stuff that Skipper said about him. The one point I would like to say, he just does seem to have this thing with every single player, some kind of relationship which I look and I say I probably didn't do that as well. He seems, whether it's the word empathy, I don't know, is that that's the right word, or it's that, you know, that real understanding of what each player brings to the side at every time. And I think that emotional connection he seems to have with players, whether that's just because he has been through one hell of a career on and off the field, way more than what I had, a lot of it good, some of it maybe not so good, but all that gets thrown into the mix to create you as a player. And I think he really understands that. More than I ever would have given him credit for at the start of his, knowing Ben as I think that's, I admire that so much from him as a leader.

Let's talk a bit about recovering from disappointment then. So obviously we know for England, everything was building up to the Ashes, turned out to be a big disappointment. As a leader, how do you go about picking up those around you. I don't know if it's his biggest disappointment, I wouldn't put words in his mouth, but after a big disappointment, which clearly this Ashes has been.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you know, it's intriguing to see how they're going to come back from that because I said that connection between the captain and the coach has got to get back on track. And this style of cricket is going to be interesting to see whether they go fully in on what they're trying to do for the last few years or they just kind of just temper it slightly. You know, just slightly. I just think it just needs a slight tinker, you know. It was far too risky, and playing risky against the better sides, it's been proven over the last few years that they've been found out, particularly against India and particularly against Australia. But fundamentally, I would think he'll— him and Baz will just get the players together, and you know, there won't be a great deal of change. There may be a new opening batter, maybe a new ball bowler. I'm thinking of someone like a Matthew Fisher, an Ollie Robinson, a Sam Cooke, maybe a an English-style opening bowler, but it's going to be the same group of players and it's the same backroom team. So I think Ben will just be probably trying to make sure that the players know exactly what their roles are, you know, what he expects from all the players and the way that they play. Someone like Ben Duckett is a really important cog in this wheel, you know, because up until recently he was flying for England at the top of the order, coming out and playing this expansive game. In recent times he's had a bit of a struggle. So I think Ben and Baz will be trying to work with someone like Ben Duckett to get his mind right. And that's what leadership's all about, making sure that all the players that are selected have got a real clarity in the roles that they as leaders expect from them. And I'm pretty sure that's the work that will go on in May going into that first game against New Zealand in June.

I'm intrigued because it's the first time I, well, I can remember, it's certainly that I can remember actually, after the Ashes, normally a captain or a coach, especially when you lose, goes. You know, there's someone loses their job, so it's a fresh start. You know, in 2013-14 when I lost 5-0, Andy Flower went and we had Peter Moores come in and you weren't looking back, you're looking forward. You know, it was a fresh start, we're going to go again, we got rid of some players and you kind of use that energy to kind of forget the disaster that we certainly had in Australia in those November, December and January. When we were playing in June, it was a different side, it was a different group of players, it didn't matter actually. On this occasion because, and as Vorni has mentioned, it will be a very similar side. Yes, there might be a couple of changes, but it's the same group of players, the same backroom staff, and they are intrinsically linked to what happened in that side. There's no looking forward, it's not a fresh start, no matter whoever they, whatever they come across the media. So I'm intrigued to see, you know, it's going to go one of two ways quite quickly, I think, because if they lose a couple of games, the decision not to get rid of any of the backroom staff or the coaches that will be the story in the media, that that's what happens because it's not a fresh start. They won't be given any time to bed in. It will be about results and how they play very, very quickly. However, on the other side of that, you've got a group of players who've been through quite a traumatic 2 or 3 months as a group together. And it'll be, as I said, same group of players. How do they learn from it? And someone like, let's look at, let's pick Jamie Smith, who had a tough 5 games, you know, he'd flown in Test cricket, you know, last couple of games in India looked tired, in Australia got found out a little bit in terms of his batting, his keeping under the biggest pressure. He's gone away, first 3 games this summer banged out 200s and an 80. So, you know, he, so he, I reckon, has learned a lot from it and be becoming a better player. And that's what you're looking at this side that they've just gone to Australia, if they come out, if they've are better players from this experience and are better leadership group from this experience, then in 18 months' time they could win the— you know, you're looking at winning the Ashes. That's what this group of players must be looking at in the Test time. That's what you're kind of judged on. You asked me at the beginning, what's a captain judged on? Winning a big series. So that's what I mean. That's what I'm intrigued to see over the next couple of months is, has— what has this leadership group learned And can they take it forward? It's going to be, it's going to flip very quickly one way or the other, I think, in come June.

This is the question I've been most excited to ask both of you, Michael. If you could relive one day as England captain, what day would it be?

Lifting the Urn is what you play for England for. It's what you dream of as a player. And then to think that I was a lucky captain to get the urn in my hand. And obviously Alistair did it a few years later. There's nothing beats that, knowing that Australia are gonna have to come in your dressing room and have a beer. That's what you play for. Yeah, I mean, there was loads and loads of times that, you know, people wouldn't really think that I would talk about in terms of, you know, special moments as England captain. But, you know, winning in the Caribbean, we won a series in South Africa, that was was special. But oh, you set out, I mean, we do put a huge amount of emphasis on the Ashes. It's pretty much what we all talk about with the— it's obviously going to Australia now next year, '27. Can England get the Ashes back? So when you get that opportunity to just walk up the stairs and get the little— it's only tiny. And I actually lifted the urn at the Oval and I looked underneath and there was a £29.99 sticker I think they got it from the Lord's shop. Was yours the same, Cookie?

I think they took the sticker off. They'd learnt in 2005.

It might have been a bit more than £29.99. It might have been £49.99.

It's a good replica for that. What was that like then in that when the Aussie players have to come in for a drink? Because, okay, obviously the best bit of that day is lifting the urn. It sounds like that was a very close second.

Yeah, I mean, that special, it's just, to be brutally honest, it's just relief, right? It's just a huge amount of relief that, you know, you've won. You know, the art of playing sport is about winning, you know, and when you lose a game and you're the captain, it hurts a lot more than when you're a player. But when you win a game or a series as a captain, you know, you love it as a player, but you feel that extra buzz as being the captain. And, you know, I'm not saying it's down to the captain all the time, but, you know, you go through a lot as an England captain for those moments. And that's why we'll keep talking about the Ben and Baz McCullum partnership, is that they've given us some great, great moments, but they're yet to have that moment of lifting the major trophies. And that's what they'll hope to reset this summer, to make sure that by '27, around September or August time, whenever I don't even know when the series is next year, but whenever that moment is, Ben will be, you know, going to bed at night thinking, I want to be that captain that's on that podium next August, September time with the urn in his hands.

What day would you relive, Alistair?

Do you know the couple I'd like to relive? I'd like to go back to that Nagpur one in my first ever series, winning in India and actually enjoying that last day. Because even though it was the flattest wicket in the world and I, you know, there was almost little chance of us getting bowled out because if we did, we would have been— I don't know how we wouldn't have been out. And actually, Trottin belly-batted beautifully. I just didn't watch a ball of it because I was pacing up and down the changing room thinking, we can't mess this up. And I'd like to go back and just relax and sit and enjoy that moment because that was a long tour. And to win in India, and then probably, you know, apart from picking up the urn, apart from the actual moment, it would be the Stuart Broad 8 for 15, you know, won 2-1 in the series. I'm thinking, this is, remember, this is after we'd lost 5-nil and beginning of the series everyone was saying Australia are going to hammer us. And we'd won at Edgbaston fairly convincingly as well in 3 days, it was 2-1, and win the toss and bowl. And by lunch we were batting again. And I just, I would just love to go back and experience that and enjoy it knowing the result, thinking, because even as a captain, they're the two that day, that game, I slept less in that game than I slept in any other thing, even though I think we were 254 for 4 at the end of day 1, leading by almost 200 runs, 2-1 up. I mean, it's almost impossible to lose from there, and yet I just did not sleep. Imagine you're the captain who lost from here. Imagine this, imagine that. I just could not get any sleep, and I just didn't enjoy those 2 days until that final wicket Mark Wood took. And you know, that feeling of relief was, as Skipper said, it is relief, and it is kind of that, oh, the weight of the world's off your shoulder. But I'd like to go back to those 3 days and actually enjoy the 8 for 15, not thinking there'll be a partnership, there'll be this and that.

To be honest, I absolutely loved the captaincy more than the kind of batting side in the last 2 or 3 years of my career. But if young people come to me and say, I want to be the captain, I go, why?

Really?

Well, yeah, honestly, yeah. I mean, I just go, why? Just be a player. And there's so much kind of nonsense that you have to deal with and just enjoy playing the game. And, you know, I always think the best captains generally arrive, you know, those that are kind of made, you know, they're almost made too early. I think the best, like Ben Stokes has surprised us, you know, you know, 5 or 6 years ago, would you have thought that Ben Stokes would have been the captain? That, would you have thought Ben Stokes would have been the captain? Probably not. Kind of gets the job and you think, wow, yeah, He surprised us all, he's been fantastic and I think that's generally a school of thought that, you know, if you feel that someone is the captain and is the captain for a long period of time, you kind of look in and go, okay, that's the captain, is it? And then somebody gets the job and you go, oh, this fella's alright, where's he come from? You know, and I think that's just at the time you generally always— cricket's a funny sport, you generally always give the captaincy to the best player at that time. And it's not always the case.

I don't know, Thorny. I think the enjoyment of trying to build something is, you know, build a team, make decisions about it. And the challenge of that was amazing. Like, I look back, I understand what you're saying, just play, just play, and you play for a bit and then you want something more. And the challenge of building that side, yes. Is it hard work? Is it stressful? Yeah. Is it? It's all that stuff, but it's also just the opportunity to make a difference and make a difference in a certain way. That's what I loved. And absolutely did. I, you know, I can go back and list how many bad headlines I had about my captaincy. Everyone tends to forget about it now, but, you know, I was described as the worst captain ever by certain members of the public. I don't know if it's you, Vaughan, but certainly some pundits did. But I'm pretty sure it wasn't me.

It might have been an Australian that's no longer here.

Yeah, I think it was. Yeah. But I just, I just loved that challenge of it. I just love the challenge of trying to make a difference in certain things. And I did enjoy when I finished going back and, you know, the England bit was a bit weird because you're part of the side and not, you know, not make it so careful not to step on Joe Root's toes. The idea of going back when I finished playing for England, Essex and captaincy, I couldn't have been further from my— I had no interest whatsoever in doing that. But actually, when you are captain, it is an amazing thing.

What I'm saying, Cookie, is my message to all those players that are playing the game is don't set out to be the captain.

No.

Just be the best player that you can possibly be, the best teammate that you can possibly be. You know, just get involved with the culture of the dressing room. Do you know what? The captaincy will naturally come to you. Don't go desperately wanting it.

Is there anybody with hindsight you would have captained differently to the way you did, Michael?

I'm sure that, I'm sure there are one or two, but I honestly had no regrets. The day that I gave up the job, I was upset because I knew that was it. You know, I realistically knew I'd never play for England again. So got a bit emotional about that. But the reason that I kind of stepped away from the job is that it was time for someone else and I had no regrets. I'd given it everything and I'd kind of done it as well as I possibly could. I'm sure there was many moments that I could have managed people better, you know, but fundamentally I kind of left the job thinking, you know, I've given it a right good crack, you know, I've given it my best shot. I'm a big believer in sport. You've got to entertain the fans. You know, you have to entertain the public. And I felt over the period that we had a bit of a group of players that could do that. Um, had a bit of fun along the way, got stressed along the way, but fundamentally, um, yeah, there would have been, but I don't categorically remember one or two. Look, dropping Steve Harmison and Matthew Hoggard was, was, was quite hard, you know, managing that situation in New Zealand. I think Cookie was there as well when we brought Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad in for those two. Uh, that wasn't easy, and I'm sure I could have dealt with that maybe a little bit better. But no, I had no regrets. That's why I kind of was a bit tearful when I left the role.

I think I would envy anybody with no or few regrets more than I would envy anybody else in any walk of life, to be honest, Alistair.

I think there's a couple of things. I think managing your mates is really hard. I found that in particular, you know, people like Jimmy and Swanee to start with, I found a really interesting balance of I spent a lot of time with those guys and suddenly you're captain. I found that a really intriguing, interesting thing. Whether I got that absolutely spot on all the time, I don't know. And I suppose the only other, I mean, apart from the obvious thing, which kind of defined my captaincy actually, was maybe my role in— I look back now, you had to probably ask them— is how many opening partners I had and whether I managed that situation particularly well. I don't know. Like we had however, 13, it's a pub question, or 15 opening partners and everyone kind of played 7 games and yet nothing I did as a leader has kind of made any of them play more. And actually, a lot of them are very good players and probably could have played more. So I wonder whether I managed that situation very well. I don't know.

Last thing, can you remember how well you dealt with no longer being England captain?

Oh no, did I struggle? I missed it. You know, I found it difficult to watch for a while. I think there was a game against South Africa at the Oval. I went away. Kevin took over, won that game. I can't remember where they went in the winter, but I watched bits and bobs. I'll be totally honest with you, I enjoyed going back to Yorkshire for a year or so and just being in amongst the Yorkies. And, you know, my cricket kind of energy, dodgy knees, spending too much time on the physio. My energy for playing kind of got sapped. So the actual thought of captaining was the last thing on my mind because my body wasn't good enough. I wasn't playing well enough. You know, I just, I had no regrets at all. And I'll be honest, I've not really— I like being in the commentary dressing room. Yeah, I've not missed being in the cricket dressing room that much. So I'm probably one of the fortunate ones that has left the dressing room and I haven't really ever had one of those moments where I thought, oh, I wish I could be back in the dressing room. I like being in around the commentary box. I like being at the golf club, like playing paddle tennis. I found if it is something that you have to find, I found it quite quickly and yeah, I think I'm one of the fortunate ones.

Oh guys, what an absolutely fascinating hour. I can just say, Michael, I'm glad you enjoyed being back at Yorkshire. I was covering Yorkshire that season. You didn't give me any interviews, so.

Oh, didn't I?

No, you didn't quite enjoy it that much. Every time I was like, Michael, Michael, no.

Well, you generally only interview those that score runs on account of that.

Alistair, lovely to have you with us as always. That was fascinating. Thank you. Thank you, Michael.

Cheers.

Cheers. Cheers.

Brilliant. Sir Alistair Cooke and Michael Vaughan, who've been with us on Five Live Sport, The Art of Captaincy.

I'm Rich Hall, and this is Sports Strangest Crimes presents Confessions of a Super Bowl Streaker.

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