The art of spin bowling

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the UK.

Ever invest in something that seemed incredible at first but didn't live up to the hype? Like those $5 roses at a gas station, or a secondhand piece of technology that breaks in the first 10 minutes. Marketers know that feeling. We optimize for the numbers that look great— impressions, reach, and reacts— but when they don't show revenue, Well, that's a not-so-great conversation with the CFO. LinkedIn has a word for that: bull spend. Now you can invest in what looks good to your CFO. LinkedIn Ads generates the highest ROAS of all major ad networks. You'll reach the right buyers because you can target by company, industry, job title, and more. So cut the bull spend. Advertise on LinkedIn. The network that works for you. Spend $250 on your first campaign on LinkedIn Ads and get a $250 credit for the next one. Just go to linkedin.com/broadcast. That's linkedin.com/broadcast. Terms and conditions apply.

Hey there, this is Thomas Germain, co-host of The Interface, the show that decodes how technology is rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, Apple CEO is resigning, and we'll look at what that what this means for the future of smartphones. We'll talk about whether your latest favorite band is actually a secret marketing ploy and how the AI data center boom has finally met its match: public backlash. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Welcome to 5 Live Cricket then. We are talking spin bowling with us, Jack Leach, England and Somerset spinner, former England spinner Phil Tufnell, and London Marathon runner Alistair Cooke. Is it, is it, this isn't a typo in front of me here? 3 minutes, 3 minutes, that would be a typo. 3 hours, 5 minutes, and 15 seconds.

It was the 5 minutes 15 which got away, chaffers.

Oh no, were you trying to break 3 hours?

I, yeah, I, This is my second attempt at it. I had a go last year and I was 3:16. I said, right, I'm gonna try and break 3. So didn't quite do it, but, uh, an amazing day and so many people out there supporting. But unfortunately the time doesn't lie and I wasn't good enough.

It was— no, it was hot though, wasn't it?

Well, that's— you don't want to start getting into that excuse-ridden thing of runners where something's not quite right, but it's, uh You know what you need, don't you? To do it again?

Well, yeah, but you need a pair of those shoes.

They would help, but I think not even— they would have helped me on it, isn't it? Yeah, it's just— yeah, I thought I'd have a good crack at it. I wasn't quite there. Sorry, Tuffers, I let you down.

Cookie, you were so confident, mate. We was right behind you. Did you hit the wall?

Yeah, the wall you know very well of all the running you did.

Wait, I was going to say, Tuffers, when you said you were right behind him, you mean that figuratively, don't you?

Yeah, yeah, in a car, in a car, I'm going to be right behind him. Well done, Sir Alistair, a hard line.

Jack, how are you?

Good, thank you. Yeah, I think, Tuffers, that's why we became spinners, wasn't it? So we didn't have to run much.

Absolutely.

Not that I want to bang on about this for the whole of this season, but do you think it's easier to run a marathon than understand county cricket substitution rule?

Jack. Oh yeah, I would say definitely. I'm not a fan of that rule.

It's, I mean, it seems made up as they go along, doesn't it?

Yeah, I don't know how it's come about, but for me, call me old school, but I think part of the long format of the game is that kind of being able to keep going, and that's why you do all your training in the winter, You're trying to get one up on your opposition and then to be able to bring someone in sort of halfway through, for me, doesn't seem right. Unfortunate things happen and it's kind of how you get through them and things like Woapsie going out at the end last year and stuff wouldn't sort of happen. So I think that's the sort of magic of cricket sometimes is 11v11s. That's my personal opinion. Obviously things are changing.

Well, would you scrap it, Alistair?

Because it just seems so difficult to I was never a fan when it first came in. Of course, there's always that thing where you lose it. Why is it the only sport you have an injury, say, in the third over of a bowler, and for the next 4 and a half days you're hampered as a side? Obviously, in football or rugby, you swap them. But, you know, at the minute, the rules, it just clearly doesn't work. You can't have a bowler coming in even for legitimate reason. You know, 3 days. I think we've had one example where a fresh bowler comes in on the 4th day. So he hasn't bowled at all in the game and suddenly he's bowling and he bowls the side to victory. No fault of his own because that's just the rules. So they are going to stick with it. You know, there's going to have to be a few adjustments. Like, I mean, I would scrap it because I think there's too many variables in the game of sport. It's amazing how many people have used the replacement already when it's there rather than just having to bat. There's an example of a batsman saying, I couldn't grip the bat properly and he was allowed a replacement. Well, I'm not quite sure that should be allowed and certainly if they're going keep it, it should only be allowed after the first, until the first innings is finished.

The whole idea of the show is the art of spin, the future of spin, how you start off as a spinner, how you captain a spinner, all subjects that we will get into. Let me take you back then, and a lot of the spin questions, I suppose, Alistair, will go to Jack and Tuffers, but feel free to bring your own spin expertise into this at any point?

Well, I have actually got 3 for 13 bowling off spin in the first class game.

There we go.

Exactly.

I might as well set it up for you right at the start.

You absolutely let me walk straight into it. And me being who I am, couldn't resist the fact that, well, yeah, 3 for 13 when it was ragging square and people played for spin. I actually had 3 for 1 at one stage and then bowled 3 of the worst balls in my third over and got taken off. Yeah, it's an easy game.

Yeah, but you do mess— you, you do joke there a little bit though, chappers, but the captain has a big role to play, you know. With the seamers, it's a little bit straightforward really, you know. If you've got a captain that doesn't sometimes necessarily think spinners are any good, if you know what I mean, you know, well, they, they're not a great part of the side. Oh crikey, we'll just let the spinner have a little go and over before lunch, sort of thing, you know, it does become a hard bit, hard work. So the captain has got a huge role to play.

Oh well, let's do it, let's deal with the captaincy first then. We'll come back to, we'll come back to some of that as you've brought it up. What did, what have you always wanted, Jack, as a spinner, from your captain?

I think Tuff has kind of mentioned it, is empathy of like the role, I guess. You're usually only one, there's one of you in the team compared to maybe 4 seamers who can kind of all bounce off each other. So you need sort of that captain on your side sort of helping you out, I think, and also kind of seeing you as an aggressive option in the team, I think. And just the way they kind of manage you through spells, I think. I sort of talk about my first experience of Stokesy as captain, and sort of, I've sort of was used to having maybe mid-off, back, and sort of getting into my spell and he would sort of, no, say, "Now we're having him up, we're having him up," and I get hit over the top and he would be there sort of smiling and clapping like it was exactly part of the plan. And I think if you buy into that as a spinner and feel that backing from the captain, that can go a long way. I think the other time I had it was Chris Rogers who kind of, at Somerset, and we played on some helpful wickets that year and I think he sort of put a lot of faith in me, which was sort of the first time that I'd maybe had that in my career, and that was just, yeah, really sort of exciting to kind of play more of a key role in a county team.

Do you both think, therefore, and you go first, Jack, that you are the most vulnerable member of an attack?

Yeah, maybe. I think, Yeah, that kind of individual aspect, but also, um, if you're playing on a wicket that's doing a bit for the seamers, then I think batters really see you as a chance to target you. And getting those first few overs right, I think, is really important because otherwise you can sort of bowl yourself out of the game a little bit. I think there's, yeah, lots obviously different situations that you're going to be bowling in, but, um, Sometimes, yeah, if it's a seaming wicket, I think it is hard for captains to know when to kind of bring you on and how to kind of bring you into the game.

I would say Tuffers.

Yeah, I mean, the first thing Shane Warne always said about coming in, the first, the first thing of a spinner when you come on to bowl is to be kept on. And so those first 2 or 3 overs are absolutely crucial. I can, I can remember when I sort of When I played, I didn't, you know, I don't necessarily— didn't necessarily see myself as a weak link or the most sort of vulnerable link. If anything, I saw myself as something— as the person who could turn the game, if anything.

Did you feel, Alistair, you had to captain your spinner differently? Well, I suppose that depends on who the spinner was, does it?

Well, it does. If you're captaining Monty Panesar and Graeme Swann, there'll be very different, very different people too, Captain. I think, you know, there's always, when we all talk about English and English spinners, I think at the minute they, it's an incredibly hard role to do. And there's a number of factors for that. Firstly, the wickets that are played on is, you know, the drainage system at the minute means that you cannot have wickets which deteriorate like they used to do. So when there was, when it started off with, you know, a placid wicket, which then turned later on in the game, wickets don't do that anymore. They, whether it's the drains, they've got to keep more moisture in it because it drains so quickly. They actually start wet. So it nips around a bit more. So spinners are kind of not used that well and not much in the first. And it doesn't deteriorate like they do. Used to look at, I think Durham today chased 360, 2 down. Like, you know, the pitches are getting better and better. And I'm convinced that's to do with the drainage system. I'm sure groundsman shouting at me saying makes no difference. So I think spinners have it tough that way. I also think that the modern game of how people play has changed how spinners have to bowl because hitting sixes now, and I know this is pretty disrespectful, not disrespectful, change of tuffers era a few years ago. If the man was back out on the boundary, you weren't allowed to take him on as a batter. Now it's a proper shot. It's a legitimate shot. If the man's out on the bat, the batters are backing themselves just to hit the ball 60 yards over them. So a spinner has it does have it tough. And then a young spinner comes into a game and you think as an opposition tactic you're going to put him under pressure. So for spinners to survive, they need so many skills just to get them into the game these days because people are attacking them and the wickets are allowing that to happen. I think, you know, back if the wickets do turn and as Jack has said already on this thing, when Chris Rogers captained him at Somerset, when they were playing on spinning wickets, you can't attack like you can do on flat wickets. So a spinner has to have so many options and variety in how he bowls just to stay in the game, to survive. And I think Graham Swan is a great example of that. He played at Northamptonshire when he first started on spinning wickets, him and Monty and I think it was Jason Brown. They played 3 spinners and he took loads of wickets. But he then moved to Trent Bridge and he said he learned to bowl spin on a non-spinning wicket. And that is just, you know, that was the development of his game to become arguably one of England's, what, England's best ever off spinners or best ever spinner. And it's that, there's so much learning for spinners to do, and that's why you have to be really, really patient with them.

How you go back to what you said about Ben Stokes as well, and, and there's an element there, Jack, of patience, but, and also an element of, of understanding, isn't there? And, and that's the bit of 'You know, yes, we are gonna bring mid-off up,' or whatever it may be, and you may go for some runs, and therefore there may be grumblings elsewhere, but you have to, you in your head have to ignore the grumblings because your captain has given you a certain plan.

[Speaker] Yeah, and I think in Test cricket, that was more possible because the wickets were very good and they were like 5-day games. So there's more time in the game for there to be a period of runs, and you, take that to try and get the wicket. So I think that kind of works a little bit more in that longer game, whereas if you're playing on a county wicket that's set up for seaming first innings, that never really— it's so quick and it's moving so fast that you can't afford 5 overs for 25 from a spinner, um, because then that's, that goes along, that changes the game, the, the way the game's going. So that's where it becomes hard for a captain to maybe in those kind of games bowl the spinner and give them a way into the game.

Which captain got the best out of you, Tuffers?

Well, it's funny, I've just listened to the end bit there saying that sort of like bowling to how the captain wants you to. Not many sort of captains really did that to me. I sort of like had my own plans. I know when you first come in and you first start playing Test cricket and you first start playing county cricket, especially as well, and you're a youngster, you know, you need that little bit of guidance about fields and about how to sort of like go about things and what have you. But then really, you know, all right, if you're told to bowl over the wicket, that's what you did. But they didn't tell me how to go about thinking out a player, you know. That was kind of my decision and sort of my craft and my nous, really. So, you know, give me the ball and, um, you know, we'll have a chat about it, we'll work together as it, and, uh, you know, leave me to do the bowling a little bit. Obviously, when things started going a little bit wrong, you know, you start looking for a bit of help and what have you, but, you know, it's really down to you. You're the one with the ball in your hand.

How hard is it, Alistair? And then we'll move away from the captain bit, but how hard is it to not make the spinner feel like plan B if nothing else is working?

Well, in England, not that easy. Certainly if the ball is swinging, seaming. I've had some great examples where, well, clearly we went to India in 2012. We won that series. And the reason we won that series is because our spinners outbowled Indian spinners. You know, Monty and Swanee were just brilliant. And, you know, it was so easy to captain them because you were saying to Tuff, as Tuff has just said, I just left them to it because that's when, you know, they are, they do, spinners work over batsmen, I think, probably in one sense a bit more than seamers do. Now they've really got to use their skills to do it. And on spinning wickets, they use their variations probably more than a seamer does. You know, when it's seeming they just literally bowl the same, try and bowl the same ball over and over again. They have spinners that are so varied. So on spinning wickets, you know, you just let the spinners, you let the spinners work their magic. They create the chances. I think the skill of a captain when it's not doing anything is really important then, you know, to make them a feel part of the game and they're not just bowling for the second new ball or they're not just bowling to hold up an end. Guess what? Tactically, there is times where, you know, you have to say, you throw the ball to Tuffers or you throw the ball to Jack and say, mate, just keep it tight for a bit. You know, you're bowling for the other end. And that's why the skill of a spinner is actually being able to recognize those moments. And actually a spell of 7 overs for 21 or 25, no wickets, but not going, tying up an end is actually just as valuable sometimes. Well, the skill to do that as it is when it's ragging square and you're creating chance after chance. Such a varied role being a spinner.

Yeah, no, there is indeed. The one, the one thing about being a spin bowler, I think actually when it's spinning a bit, that is when you do just try and hit the spot. When you've got to use your little bit of nous is when it's flat, otherwise then they can come for you a little bit, you know. But the, the whole art that I then sort of got as I got a little bit more mature and a little bit older You've got to make the batter think that you're sort of one step ahead of them, you know what I mean? You've got to make them sort of think, and that's a little bit of showmanship and a little bit of, oh, ah, you know what I mean? And perhaps bowling a ball that you think, you know, doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it's just going to keep them trapped in the crease if they're looking to come down at you or something like that, or they're looking to get on top of you. So you've got to sort of make them think that I know exactly what you're doing, I've got you sort worked out and sort of pulled them around a little bit, and I think that that's the art.

Is there a challenge to holding up an end, Jack?

Um, no, I like that challenge, definitely. Um, it's, um, a role that still is definitely important, and, um, I think, like, I was thinking actually that it used to be a positive thing to be boring, and that was a good, you know, sometimes you had to be boring. And now it's kind of like, "Oh, nothing's happening." And so I think there's maybe a little change in how people view that kind of spell, but at the right time, I think it is still really valuable to the game. And sometimes you're just trying to give the seamers a rest and let them sort of recharge their batteries. And obviously, meanwhile, you're always trying to take a wicket. You're trying to work out a plan to try and get a wicket. But sometimes it's, um, you know, you are trying to just bowl a boring spell and see what comes of that. And actually, sometimes batters make mistakes through, through that rather than bowling a magic ball.

How did it all start for you, Jack?

Well, I've always bowled spin from when I can remember. Um, my dad kind of decided that I was not— I wasn't very big kid and I wasn't going to be bowling seam, and I wasn't bowling very fast. So, um, yeah, it was, it was always spin really from when I can remember. I remember one, one net session I got a shiny ball in my hand and I started bowling like left arm swing, and I got a few wickets. And I went, I was going home with Dad and I said, oh, I think I might be a swing bowler. And he said, no, you're not, um, you're dead, you, you're not gonna bowl fast enough. So, um, Yeah, it was always spin from when I can remember and sort of going down to watch Somerset as a youngster and Mushtaq Ahmed was the spinner and yeah, so lots of memories down there sort of watching spin.

But when you took those wickets as a swing bowler, did that seem more fun at the time?

Yeah, I think it was just different to what I'd done up until that point. Yeah, it did. But yeah, I love bowling. I mean, apart from that one occasion, I've always loved bowling spin. I think back to club cricket and kind of, well, the game's changed so much. I think about youth cricket then, and actually if you just bowled it on the spot, I didn't spin it a lot when I was younger. I mean, I still don't spin it a lot now, but the, I— you put it on the spot and people would defend, and it was kind of like MCC manual. People would defend, you know. You watch youngsters coming through now, 15-year-old kids, and they're like got all the shots because they've watched Joss Butler and Ben Stokes and Owen Morgan and all these guys, and Alistair Cook obviously. Um, so, um, I think like the game has changed so much in terms of that. And actually growing up, it was all about, you know, line and length and You know, a little bit of spin here and there and people really respected you. So that was kind of my memories of kind of growing up.

I always, from my recollection of certainly watching a lot of youth cricket, Alistair, even a decade ago when my son would have been 13 and playing representative cricket, spinners would always have quite a lot of success at that. At that time. Spinners, and I would go even back that decade to back Jack's point up, that maybe the array of shots still wasn't there for 13-year-old batters as they are now because they've been exposed to a lot more. But young spinners, particularly leggies, seem to have a lot of success in junior cricket.

Oh, I was light up, didn't I, as a young batter. As a 13-year-old batter, you got this spinner just lobbing them down there. You just think, I'm gonna have a bit of that, and you can't help yourself. Suddenly you realize actually you haven't got the power of a Joss Butler, the guy you've been watching on TV, or I don't know, Chris Gayle. So you go for the big shot and you just cloth it to mid-off and Jack Leach has got another wicket. It's, uh, it's, uh, but absolutely, this pace off the ball is a mate in, in club cricket, in junior cricket. Uh, it definitely does seem to be the way of, of taking a lot of wickets, or did seem to be the way of taking a lot of wickets. I wouldn't know what the stats are now over the last whether that's changed. But with every— in every doubt, I do remember that in my club captains back in the day, when I was— that was 30 years ago— that whenever I was getting whacked, they'd always bowl the slowest bowler they could find because, you know, they'd always slog one up in the air.

Did you not find that tough as growing up, that you had a lot of opportunities?

Um, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I started off as a seam bowler. I was a fast and nasty. And I can remember a chap called Jack Robertson used to play for England, and he went to a net and he showed me how a bowl spin. And he said, he said, well, he said, there's a lot of seamers out there. And he said, you've got a very nice run-up, very nice rhythmical action. And when, in fact, when it, when, when things used to start sort of going slightly wrong in me action, not that I even now like to want to talk about it, the yips or whatever, you sort of then practiced just bowling little inswingers, you know, just to get yourself through your action and go through the process of it. And then you know, you know, sort of get the, get the ball spinning down and the change of grip and what have you. But I, I look back when I bowled, you know, I don't reckon that I bowled virtually two, two, two similar balls in an over sometimes, you know, whether that be a little bit of natural variation, a little bit of, um, you know, flight and guile, which I think has slightly gone out of the game. And, and, you know, a little bit of change of line and a little bit of change of length, and, you know, and you pull the batsman around a bit. The one thing that you've got to have with that is a control of line and length. So, you know, if you're going to bowl that slower one a little bit wider outside off stump, it can't be short, you know what I mean? It's got to be on that length, and you've got to have the confidence to then do that. If you're going to bowl one a little bit slower to try and get them, you know, perhaps leading edge one You know what I mean? You've got to put it in the right areas, otherwise, you know, it's not going to work. It's going to end up like a slow long hop, you know what I mean? And so, I mean, if I was a spin bowler now, I'd be looking to blow the front pad off. I can understand it, you know, people now, DRS and the way people are giving it out, LBW. But I'd like, you know, you know, you're talking about Chris Gayle, you know, and these guys whacking it out the park, and Josh Butler. But, you know, I've watched the likes of Mitch inner. I think he's— he takes it off, he goes wide, he goes wide of off stump. You've got to have the confidence in your ability to mix it up but put it on where you want the, the ball to go, because otherwise it does get a little bit tricky. You end up bowling fullies and long-ups.

Going back to when you were bowling as a kid as well, Jack, did you find— and it brings in Alice's point— that you would cause more problems, I don't know, say between 11 and 14, but then maybe once people got into their late teens, the batters understood the art of playing spin bowling more.

Maybe a little bit even later, yeah. But later, yeah, I would say so. Yeah, maybe when I got to men's, I enjoy playing as much men's cricket as possible from a young age because actually guys thought, who's this youngster, I'm gonna smack him. And actually you tried to, like Taffaz talks about, you know, pull the pin out and, and get them stumped. And stump was always my favorite dismissal growing up. Um, so, um, yeah, I think, um, you kind of learn those things playing maybe as a youth player, but playing in men's cricket because they try and sort of take you on a little bit more.

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hey there, this is Thomas Germain, co-host of The Interface, the show that decodes how technology is rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, Apple CEO is resigning, and we'll look at what that means for the future of smartphones. We'll talk about whether your latest favorite band is actually a secret marketing ploy and how the AI data center boom has finally met its match, public Backlash. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.

Radio 5 Live.

Patrick Kilty stumbling your way into Saturday mornings with great guests. Good morning, Jimmy Nesbitt.

Good morning, Paddy.

You're terrible. Kids taking down commentators. You've wiped the floor with our commentator, Cian.

How does it feel?

It feels nice.

Football chants from the gods. Take me home like it rolls.

The less said about the host, the better.

Patrick Kilty, Saturdays from 9.

Listen on BBC Sounds.

This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Let's go back to something that you talked about, Alistair, and the sort of attitude or the English attitude towards spin, partly through maybe the surfaces that we have here. But what do you think historically our attitude to spin is, has been?

Well, historically, the seamers take more wickets than spinners is in our country. It's very, very condition-based.

So what have we wanted our spinner to be?

Well, I think we've had some great spinners like Tuffers, you, Derek Underwood, Graham Swan, Monty Panesar, just to name a few I can remember. So, and Jack Leach, of course. Sorry, buddy. Um, is the, is the fact that there is— it's harder to, to break through as a spinner because the conditions are in favor of seam bowling for the majority of the period. Of course, there's the old time where it's dry and sunny for a bit. And that's what I'm— I know there's argument about, oh, we don't produce any spinners. Well, it's really hard to do that where a lot of the things are against spinners. You know, a lot of the pitches, and I keep going back to the pitches because, and it is the fact that they have changed over the last, you know, 20 years due to a huge number of factors. But You don't get ragging wickets that often with, in county grounds deteriorating. And guess what? When they do get ragging wickets, our spinners take wickets. There's no shadow of a doubt about that. But there's just less of them because actually you get rewarded, certainly in the English game, for being a seamer who bowls 82, 83 miles an hour and hits the area. It's always been like that. And we get found out a little bit when we have to go to other parts of the world. But other people come to this part of the world and they get find out. They get found out a little bit playing against the swinging seam ball. I think it's changing, I suppose, as, you know, the game's getting more, you know, moving around probably more and more than it was. But, you know, it's such a funny one because everyone says, oh, we don't play spin great. Well, it's— we do play spin pretty well, but we don't get to practice as much as the Indians against spin or the Pakistanis or subcontinent players because that's their bread and butter. And I don't know how you change that. I don't know how you change that at all. It is what it is. And then it's down to the players, the spin bowler, to try and make out. It's certainly not easy for them in the minute, but isn't that the challenge of sport? That is what the challenge of it. I don't think there is no— we're not going to sit here in this hour or ever and there's a golden ticket to this answer of why we're not producing more spinners. A lot of things are against them.

Alice has sort of said there, Jack, you know, it is what it is where we are with spin bowling and it's not easy. And Jack Carson, The Athletic, Sussex's Jack Carson, One of his quotes is, it's easy for a spinner to develop a bit of a woe-is-me mentality, but especially when it's this tough at this time of the year when much first-class cricket is played. But that doesn't help you get the best out of yourself.

Yeah, very true. Yeah, I completely agree with it. You're— there's, there's always narratives around it. I think, um, you know, I think the short format as well. I think if you're a young player now, not— and this isn't just spin, this is all areas. And it's not just England, it's all countries. But with the short format now, you've got to be growing up wanting to play all formats, because I just think, like, you've seen players go from 100 or the IPL and get into the test team through that way. So that's now a legitimate way to kind of get into the, the longer format of the game. But playing the longevity in playing county cricket. I feel like I was lucky that I was able to do that, and I really targeted Test cricket. But now I don't see that as a way for young players to kind of get the best out of themselves on the cricket field. I think they have to be looking at all formats, and then that's really difficult to then get the volume of bowling in the longer format that someone like myself would have got, or, you know, other spinners. Where, you know, you play— like, I played Minor Counties, I, you know, 3-day game Minor Counties. I played, had a long second team career before I played in the first team. So there was a lot of bowling done before I kind of making it into the first team. That's just not the case for young players now. They, they have these opportunities to play in these competitions, and that, that's just the game now. And I think that, that kind of adds to the challenge, I guess.

Yeah, it's finding a way. It's finding a way for a spinner in this block of 6 games, whatever there is now. And it has been actually quite warm, hasn't it? So it's not— the pitches probably have, you know, they haven't nipped all over. You know, as I said, there's been some high scores, but it's just about finding a way of somehow getting in their game. And that's not taking— we can't expect spinners or, you know, Leitch here this time of year to be taking 5 wickets in a game, but it's Yeah, he's absolutely right. Spinners have to bowl a huge amount of overs, and it is a patience thing with development and the bowler himself. But, you know, certainly if the thing which stood out with me watching someone like Graeme Swann bowl— and I obviously saw him at the, you know, from 28 onwards more than I did was a 21-year-old, 22-year-old— he found ways to get in games as a spinner. And that is on all surfaces, and that is from repetition of bowling. That is from bowling in You know, in all forms of the game, in lots of things. I love the fact that Jack went off and played minor counties cricket, played, because that's where you learn. And spinners in particular, where there's less toll on the body, can bowl a huge amount of overs. But spinners at this time of year find a way to get in the game somehow.

Can I just add to that? It's like, just about, it's a question really to Cookie, to the spinners that you saw, and also Tuffers in how you practice and like the best way to practice, because I think if you're not getting enough bowling in games, um, it's important is how you use your time in the nets. And, and the best spinners, how they practice. And I love listening to Tuffers on his mentality to how he tried to bowl spin, but whether there was anything in practice that he did to kind of do that. Was he always bowling at batters or, um, or other things? Because that's really interesting. If that's— if you did practice, I don't know, he might have just—

well, yeah. A little bit. I'll tell you what I did. What I did a lot was visualize, usually sat in a pub, you know what I mean? But when I look back, when I look back, I really did do a lot of actually looking at the player and visualizing how I was going to get him out. And so you get into your rhythm in the nets, don't you? And you go through a little bit and pieces, and you bowl with this one, and you bowl with a slower one, and you bowl your arm ball, and all this kind of stuff. But you, you have to develop, and you're talking about a volume of work as a spin bowler. You, you have to develop, and that's why it's very, very difficult when you're young, and we're talking about captains and about how to help you with fields and what have you. You have to develop a sixth sense when you bowl the spin. You have to kind of take them on a journey if you know what I mean. And you can't do that sometimes by just running up and bowling in the nets because you get in your rhythm, it's coming out nice, lovely. So you then— I was always sort of just sort of thinking about ways and means about how to then— and, and techniques of players, what they look to do, how do they look to come at me, how do they look to defend, what do they want to do, how, how are they going to try and put me off my game. Game, you know what I mean? And I did that quite a lot, even though people think that I perhaps didn't and I just sort of run up and had a bowl. But I did, I did that a lot. And that was through watching and, and sort of studying people and the way they go about their business.

When do you reckon then you were at the, at the peak of your powers then, Tuffers? Because Matt Prior made the same point about Graeme Swann last week, came into the Test side early. He said he got chewed up, spat out went back. I mean, Alistair talks about, you know, him moving from Northamptonshire to Notts, you know, did his time in county cricket, and then when he was 30-odd, really understood his game.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that's just not from bowling in the nets, because he could, you know, he wouldn't have been picked at that age if he was bowling full tosses and long hops. It's about realizing how you go about your craft, you know, and how you actually then try and impose that on the batter. Like I said a bit earlier, sort of make them think that you're one step ahead of them, you know what I mean? And that is— it's very difficult to sort of like explain really, but you have to then sort of trust, trust your judgment of what you think is the best way to go and get this person out, you know. And sometimes it's bowling it tight, bowling it tight, and you develop that sixth sense. And that only comes with time. I can remember when Mike— see, I was very lucky, I had John Embry, Phil Edmonds, Mike Gatin, I played with at Middlesex, you know, and I can remember as a very young chap sort of going, you know, you're the England captain, you know, you set me fields, you know what I mean? I don't know, you know what I mean? He said, all right, well, I'll do it, but you've got to then get this in you, you know, and that takes quite a while, you know, because you don't quite, you don't quite have that. You've got to then, as Cookie was saying, find a way of getting into the game, and that sometimes isn't just by putting it on the spot because putting on the spot sometimes ain't going nowhere.

If you were starting out now, both of you, Phil and Jack in particular here, with white ball cricket, what difference would that have made to you?

Well, I was speaking to Liam Dawson actually at the Hampshire game and he was saying how difficult he finds it going between T20 and 4-day cricket. I think it is a very good skill. Tuff has mentioned Mitchell Santner, and I think he is probably one of the best across the formats. And like, yeah, going between formats, and I think his change of pace and, you know, bowling slow and wide, and he's actually made his T20, I guess his T20 strengths really work for him in Test cricket as well. And that's sort of real inspirational, I guess, to see as a spinner. And it's something that you're always sort of, I guess, aiming towards and trying to see what bits you can take from other spinners. But yeah, I think it is a very big challenge. I mean, I haven't had to play much T20 cricket So it's not something that I particularly know an awful lot about. But, um, Tuffers, have you got anything on that?

Well, no, I was just going to say, Jack, if you were to play, you know, a bit of T20 cricket, how would you sort of mentally go into that game? What would you be thinking? Would you be thinking, right, you know, I'm going to try and tie them down, or what? You know, how would you then think about how you would make the impact?

Yeah, it's a good question. I think, um, my— so the opportunities that I have had have been when we're playing sort of two spinners, and then the wicket is actually a little bit more helpful And so I feel like I still want to try and spin the ball. Um, I think obviously you don't want to lose that as, um, your main weapon, I guess, is like if the ball's moving naturally, um, then you've got a chance of beating them. Um, I think the danger is going quicker and quicker and, um, and actually it can go further and further. So, um, it would be trying to be— I think a big thing would be my mindset towards it and trying to be brave in terms of The things you talked about in the longer format is in terms of trying to work the batter out and trying to take pace off, put pace on, and try and mess with their rhythms, I guess, of them trying to hit where they're trying to hit. So that would be my thoughts.

Is that—

yeah, I didn't have to— yeah, I didn't have to deal with the reverse sweep so much in my time, thankfully. Chappers, I think, which has been a right pain in the butt for the spin bowler. But even then, you know, because it almost has to take a fielder out, out of your armory sort of thing. But I mean, even then, with the reverse sweeps that's coming in, as you say, the changes of paces, you know, if you keep jamming it in, they're going to keep hitting you on the reverse sweep. You know, you've got to, you've got to go up and down, you've got to go full, you've got to go slightly short, you've got to, you've got to kind of make sure that they just can't set themselves. And when they set themselves and they get in that position to hit hit, they've got something else in the back of their mind that they have to then contend with.

Mentally, I must be intrigued. I'm intrigued actually, like, when you do get panned for a few sixes, which is inevitable in the modern day now, in certainly in white ball game, and even it's getting way more in red ball game. How do you deal with that? Like, Leitch, you walk back to your mark because spinners get hit for more sixes than seamers, there's no doubt about it. What's your process of dealing with that?

I think that was one thing that I kind of quite enjoyed as a kid, was like I would get hit for 6 and I'd try and bowl the next one almost slower and loopier and like try and draw them into a false shot that way. So I think you have to enjoy, like you have to find that weirdly enjoyable from a young age. I think it's actually got harder as I've got older, probably, to enjoy when you're playing with, you know, expectation and stuff, and then you kind of feel like, 'Oh, I should be going at 2 and over,' or— and you sort of put that pressure on yourself. But I think you have to— when I'm bowling my best, is you sort of trying to lure them into something. And like I said earlier, my favorite dismissal growing up was stumping. So I try and keep that in my head. And actually, to get someone stumped, you have to beat them in the air. And so trying to do that again, be brave with your mindset to doing that. But I would say if it's the first, you want to get into your over because in T20, if the first 2 balls of the over go out, you're thinking, oh no, it's 36, isn't it?

But has white ball cricket made it more about the pace of the delivery than anything else?

With white ball cricket, you have got to vary line length, pace, virtually every— otherwise they'll just sit there, get a solid base, and whack you out the park. Simple as that. And so you've got to pull them around a little bit, and you've got to try and, as you say, be one step ahead of what you're thinking. And that only comes with experience, you know. If you have to put yourself into those positions to then feel kind of what's going to happen— spin bowling, it's all about, you know, nous, and you feeling— well, for a start off, when you come on the bowl, you've got to kind of find what the pace of the wicket is, you know. And so there's all these little extra things that are going through your mind— how to build overs and how you're going to sort of like work to pull him around the crease and what have you. So, you know, you know, when you get tagged, yeah, it hurts, that's for sure. But, you know, you always think, well, okay, I'll give you one or two, and then, you know, I'll be the one seeing you off.

That's why I like Tuffers' mindset in terms of his long format, in terms of still trying to bowl different balls in his over. Because actually, a lot of my mindset is about bowling the same ball. And I think then that makes T20, the shorter format, harder because you are trying to bowl different balls every ball, different length, different line, different pace. So yeah, I think if you've got that mindset already, to kind of vary things. Obviously in 4-day you're probably varying it slightly less, but I think it's a good mindset to have. Tough as, I think you would have made millions.

As we go into this summer then, what do you think, Alistair, England want from a spinner?

Oh dear, here we go.

Oh well, the goal— we'll go for everything. They want control and a person who spins it to take wickets. You want the complete package, don't you? And he can bat and field, that'll really help as well. It balances the team. Yeah, that is where we are at the minute with England and the spinners. And we spoke a little bit about how hard it is for younger spinners, or even spinners in general in England, to, to find their way in the game. They've got so many facets to learn that it is certainly not easy. I don't know which way they're going to go. This England setup for this summer because whoever becomes the new selector, whichever way they go, I'm intrigued. You know, we went, I remember in 2014 after Graeme Swann retired and Monty retired kind of, and that new Ashes, after that Ashes we lost 5-0, we actually went for Amoeen Ali as our spinner, batted at 8, but he was at that time for Warwickshire, for Worcester, a batter who bowled more than useful spin, who then developed over a period of time to be actually an excellent spinner for England in all forms. And he was backed and backed and backed, but he was picked because there was no one else out there at that time, but because of his ability with the bat to influence the game. So I'm intrigued to see which way they go.

And there is not a quick fix on this spinning front because it does feel, Jack, doesn't it, that they want a batter who bowls a bit of spin.

I think that makes sense if they feel there's not a spinner who's an out-and-out spinner that's good enough at the moment to go for some spinner that bats a bit, especially if you're playing on some wickets that are in England, you know, hopefully it's doing a little bit for the seamers and, and actually that might be a better option. So, um, yeah, I wouldn't— I mean, in the winter they went with Jacks and Bashir. I think like you could— I could easily see it being two in the squad and, um, they, they decide on depending on conditions, um, whether they feel like they need that out-and-out spinner who will play more of a bigger role, or whether they can get by with a batter who bowls some spin.

Jack, who is the best spinner in the country at the minute in your opinion? You're playing the game.

English spinner.

Yeah, yeah.

Um, uh, I think, um, I haven't— this is hard because I haven't seen a lot of anyone really apart from—

what about Jack Lee? What about Jack Lee?

No, I'd say, um, like, I've spent a bit of time with Bash, and I really rate Bash. I think he's, um, he's young obviously, but he's— I think he's got a bright future. Um, and maybe he'll be a little bit like Swan. He came in early and he will have some time in county cricket and come good. A little bit later down the line, but I've liked what I've seen from a lot of spinners. There's a lot of spinners that I look at, a glimpse, I go, "Oh, they've got a nice action." It's like, but there's so much more to it, isn't there? Like Taff has spoke about in terms of the guile and the kind of putting a spell together and knowing what's required. So yeah, I wouldn't sort of, I've sat on the fence.

No, but then— no, but then I suppose the interesting point about Jack's answer, Tuffers, is that no, nobody necessarily leaps out.

No, well, absolutely. And you do take a little bit of time. And so I, I see that there's a, there's a huge opportunity. One thing, one thing I will say is that I've never seen a really great side that didn't have a solid spinner. You know, it's all very well and good having a bloke coming in who bowls a few little bowl, you know, bowls a few offies or bowls a few left armors and what have you and can bat. But out of all the great sides that I've seen, all of them, or match-winning, test-winning sides, they've all had, um, you know, an out-and-out spin bowler. Obviously, if he can bat a bit, that's fantastic, you know what I mean? But you have to have one in your side, and, um, and it, you know, even on green-seeming pitches, you know, you still have to have that change of pace. You have to have that in your armoury if you want to be a great side. And I don't think that you can do that— I'm not meaning to be rude— part-timer.

Going back to your point, Alistair, I suppose it does feel as it's a more defensive role at this stage, isn't it?

I, I would say so. Um, and certainly the balance to the side with Actually, your overall impact on the game is actually probably the way that England will go. I think, I don't think Bashir will get that first go at it again. I think he needs that time away from the game. He's got, as Jack said, he's got the potential to be a very good spinner in terms of the pace and the height he bowls at. But I think he's got a bit of work to do. It's just how do they see this England side? How do they see the role of the spinner? And I'm intrigued, I'm intrigued. There's a few options you can go with, but again, there's not one person at the minute standing out going he's guaranteed. That you could ask probably 20 people who they would pay and I reckon there could be 20 different answers.

Yeah, uh, we will leave it there. Alistair, thank you. Phil, Jack as well, thank you very much for being with us. Don't forget you can hear every ball of this year's County Championship on the BBC Sport website.

Welcome to the Wayne Rooney Show.

Wayne Rooney, Kay Curd, and me, Kelly Somers, break down the biggest stories in the Premier League and beyond.

He's gone in quite quick, but he hasn't caught him high.

I just don't think it's a red card.

Plus, we'll hear the funniest and most outrageous stories from Wayne's career.

I was going into positions and doing things I shouldn't have really been doing, but you do it because you feel like you have to, and that helped us drive on and win the FA Cup. The The Moonie Show.

Watch on iPlayer, listen on SoundCloud.

Hey there, this is Thomas Germain, co-host of The Interface, the show that decodes how technology is rewiring your week and your world. On this week's episode, Apple CEO is resigning, and we'll look at what that means for the future of smartphones. We'll talk about whether your latest why your favorite band is actually a secret marketing ploy and how the AI data center boom has finally met its match: public backlash. Listen on bbc.com or wherever you get your podcasts.