The Ashes: Crunch time ahead of the Christmas Test

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Hello, this is Eleanor Aldroyd from Adelaide where it's now or never for England to turn the Ashes series around. They simply have to win. During this podcast we'll be hearing from both captains Pat Cummins and Ben Stokes and assessing how England can get back into the series.

TMS at the Ashes.

So welcome to the Adelaide Oval on the eve of the third test match of this Ashes series. It's a must win game for England and it is the most beautiful day. It is still relatively pleasant temperature in the high 20s. It's going to get up into the 30s over the next few days though. This is not, as Ben Stokes would probably say, a place for weak men. And England and Australia have both named their teams in the last 24 hours. With me are the BBC's chief cricket commentator, Jonathan Agnew, writer and broadcaster Bharat Sundar Raison, and our chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemuelt Aggers. Here we are again at the Adelaide Oval. For me, the most beautiful cricket ground in this country and possibly the world. Even though it's much changed over the years and it feels like this is going to be the focus of some pretty significant, serious hard nosed cricket over the next few days.

It's going to be a massive week because whatever happens here, there'll be ramifications of some sort either as we all hope the Ashes are still alive and England could, who knows, win the last two tests and, and, and win the Ashes. If they don't win here, I think that there's going to be a lot of big questions raised and that's, that's inevitable. Not just about the way they've played in the first two tests, but what they've chosen to do at the downtime. They've made those choices. It's all part of their blueprint. It's the way they do it. I'm a bit confused about some of the conversation about, well, there's these breaks between test matches. Well, there have always been breaks between test matches from the word dot, but the difference was that they used to go and play cricket in those breaks and this squad have chosen. Well, not the squad necessarily, the management of the squad have chosen not to do that and we will see whether that's right or wrong. Now I do add the caveat that they have now had two hard games of cricket in the two test matches. Not long, only six days, but they have at least warmed up, they have at least had some practice, they have at least played some cricket. I'd like to have seen them play some more and we'll see. I mean, Judgment day is approaching and I thought the way that you'll hear from Ben Stokes in a minute, but I think the way that he talked about it, I said, is this the crunch of the blueprint? It just feels as if it is. If they go down three nil here and it's all over, there's still two test matches to come and then the focus again will be on the preparation, the, the year building up to this, what decisions were taken, we're hearing now of course, of a, an opportunity of a match against Australia A. Now, was that true or not? We don't, we don't know. But if that was knocked back in favor of that, that, that, that knockabout in Lilac Hill, that's a really serious decision that someone has made. And, and it's, it's that sort of, it's, it's, it's, it's that sort of scrutiny that the management of this team will face. And by management, I mean, Rob Key particularly, I mean, obviously Brendan McCullen, the coach, Ben Stokes, yes, to an extent. He's, he's the captain, but it's those two, really, and you have to go right to the top. This was signed off by Richard Gould, the chief executive. So they are all responsible for, for where we are today.

And I think these are going to be conversations that will happen after this Test match, undoubtedly. Stefan, I mean, you were in Noosa with the team. Do you feel like they're prepared to play a Test match, a hard Test match, over the next few days?

I think there are a lot of things that, and we spoke about this the other day, didn't we, Ellie, about, about hindsight and how things are judged in hindsight and how we are going to have the benefit of hindsight in five or six days time. And if England win this week, then Nusra is going to look like the greatest circuit breaker that management have ever come up with. If England lose, it could be. Was it Bardon, Barden, 2006 in the football World Cup, World Cup. It could be English cricket's Bard and Bardon moment. Whether or not they're prepared, they've certainly talked a good game over the past three day, three days. And we have had the big dogs, if you will all talk into the media. We've had the coach, we've had the vice captain and we've had the captain all up. From England's point of view, Brendan MC, Brendan McCollum, Harry Brook and Ben Stokes. And they have made the noises that we would like them to make about how England have reflected on those first two Test matches and how they would like to approach this third Test. Question is, is it too late? England?

And also the question is actually, do they mean it? Are they not to say it? Because they, they know that people want to hear this stuff. So are they just not just saying what has to be said?

Basically, it's got to happen now, hasn't it? It's got to happen in this Test match. There is no two ways about it. And I mean, kind of br. The gap between the Test matches and what. What happened in that time. I mean, Barat, you obviously a very, you know, you know the Australian team very well. They've. And we had Cam Green, we had Alex Carey saying, of course it's fine, you know, it's fine to take a break. We did that on the tour of England two years ago as well. But Australia, I mean, they are sitting pretty, aren't they? You know, we've seen Pat Cummins talking today. He knows that they are 2 nil up. They just need to draw this next Test match to retain the Ashes. They could not be in a happier place.

No, I mean, I guess Noosa is a happier place, technically speaking. And all I'm saying is just on Noosa, if England win this Test, can there be a better tourism advert for Noosa than that? They just have to show pictures of Ben Stokes on the beach and then show them winning at the Adelaide Hole and say, there's where you go when you're in despair and when life looks like it's very difficult for you. But from an Australian perspective, they're just getting stronger. And I think something Pat Cummin said in the press conference today was, I thought, very, very interesting and important because the last few home summers, Australia have got to the third Test and the fourth Test and they've looked at their fast bowling attack and gone like, you know, there a lot of overs put on in them and we need to look for replacements. Whereas now they played the replacements. The replacements like Doggett and N have done a job. N obviously took the fire wicket hall last week in Brisbane and now they're getting stronger. I mean, Pat Cummins is back. And Pat Cummins also did say that he has no restrictions. I asked him if he will be the one with the short pitch ploy or executing it if it comes down to that. And he said, yes, I can do whatever I want. My body is free. And then Jai Richardson's bowling like a dream in the nets and he hasn't played a Test match since he played right here four years ago. So it just feels like Australia getting stronger on and off the field. And I don't think they still think they played their perfect game. They made 500, but that was more because of Stark and Boland and what they did. So, yeah, it's, it's. And with England as well, I just get a feeling that it's. If this was any other team, we would be talking purely about the cricketing aspects of it. I mean, they're not the first team to come here and have batters nicking off trying to play on the up or fast bowlers getting excited by the bounce and going too short. But because of everything that is said around this English team, it feels like centaur philosophy is up for an inquisition if this doesn't play out the way they want it.

But I also think a lot of the conversation is because everybody, Australians and English alike, expected this team to play better. They actually expected them to really challenge Australia. So the noise you get from Australians is a kind of relief really. Well, here we are, we're still, we're still right up there, we're still giving the old country a good flogging. And from the English perspective it's just massive disappointment, you know, and all these supporters who've come out believing that they were going to see something really special and if they don't win here, they're not going to see that.

But also disappointment from Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum. Steph and I kind of think that the messages we've had in the last couple of days from them is that they know how, that they have underperformed and they know that something is not sinking in with this team.

The thing that I find fascinating about the noises that Brendan McCollum and Ben Stokes have been making is that they have made this bed over the past three and a half years about culture, about giving players freedom, about encouraging them to play in the way that they want to play and now England and their management have got to lie in it. And the reason that I raised two years ago in the UK when England were two nil down and England went to Headingley and they had a huddle and Ben Stokes said something that I can't repeat on the radio. You can only play that card so many times. And in that England squad that came back from 2 nil down and went within a very wet Sunday at Old Trafford of winning the Ashes were characters like Stuart Broad, Johnny Barstow, Jimmy Anderson, Chris Wilkes, Moeen ally, Mark Wood, battle hardened guys who are ready to get in the fight. And I think Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum. What they were talking about at the end of the Gabba Test match is they looked around and went, who is getting in the fight with us here? And you, you mentioned it, Ellie, about Ben Stokes being asked about Joe Root earlier on in the press conference about whether or not, you know, he's lent on Joe Root about a former captain and used his experience. I think there's only so many grown ups in this England team, and certainly there's a lot of this team that owe their careers to the basball movement. This is all they know Test cricket to be. I'd say only Stokes, Root and Archer of the team still in Australia. They think that this is what Test cricket is like. Play your shots, go on holiday in Noosa. And I just wonder if that realization From Stokes and McCollum now, when the heat is at its hottest and the stakes are highest, have they realized maybe this has just got away from us and we're not sure if we can.

Pull it back and interesting. They've. They've gone for Bride and Cast.

Who?

Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, he went around the park at Brisbane, but he's wholehearted. He. He'll run through a brick wall. He. He's just exactly the character that Ben Stokes is talking about.

And even a couple of the Australian top order yesterday on the sidelines were surprised that it was Cars who kept his place in the side and not Atkinson.

That's character, is it? That's been selected on character.

Exactly. They were like, wait, hang on, he was. He was a challenge. Atkinson just with the new ball, we thought he was a challenge. Oh, well, all right. They've gone with Cars and Tongue. Maybe life will be easier for us against the new ball.

And I wonder whether it made the decision easier about Will Jax as well, the way that he showed that fight at the Gabba, you know, picking him over Shoaib Bashir.

But the reason, again, and I'll keep going back to this point about hindsight, is when England regenerated their team 18 months ago at the start of 2024, and they moved some players on, and we all thought they were really good decisions on field decisions. The likes of Barstow, Anderson, Jack Leach, Ollie Robinson, they were moved on for guys like Jamie Smith showed Bashir, Gus Atkinson, who made an instant impact in Test cricket. And I looked at some of the way that these guys were going about themselves as sort of a quiet, steely determination and thought, do you know what? I think that's suited to Test cricket in Australia. I can see why you've been earmarked for this assignment. Yesterday, when Ben Stokes gave his written briefing, he then said, you know what? Some of the lads who are here for the first time, they've actually been overawed. He cited Jamie Smith at the Gabba, remember when he dropped the catch? And for the rest of the day, the crowd was on his back. Smith survives here, Atkinson and Bashir aren't playing, and I just think there's A little bit about characters in the England team who they've had in the past and whether or not Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum are feeling a little bit exposed right now.

Well, let's hear from Ben Stokes, who spoke to Agars a little bit earlier.

Well, Ben, I know it's an important cricket match coming up, but when something as horrendous as Sydney happens, it kind of puts everything in perspective. Doesn't.

Does just. Yeah, watching that, you know, come into the sort of public domain in the news and stuff like that. Just remember we were in our team room in the hotel and we've got like a projector and the news was on and then it was just there and it was just. Yeah, it was maybe five or six of us in there at the time and it was just like that silence and almost like, what is. What's going on, what's happened? And you're right, it does put a lot of things into perspective and just an incredibly sad thing to see. You know, it's. Yeah, it's. God, puts a lot of, you know, obviously, as an England cricket team and all that kind of stuff, you know, the rivalry that England, Australia have always had, things like that happen. It all goes to the side and obviously we'll be going out there this week and, you know, with the armbands on and, you know, England and Australia coming together to show their support for, you know, a terrible, terrible thing. So incredibly sad. And all of our thoughts and condolences go out to everyone who's been affected by it. Yeah.

The fact is, though, back to the reality of here. It is an important game. It's a huge game for you. I mean, I wonder if. What if it's the biggest game that you've played and the most important game particularly is captain.

Yeah, definitely. And, you know, sort of throughout my career and all that kind of stuff, been involved in quite a few big moments.

And.

Yeah, this is another one and I'm really, really looking forward to it. I've been. Yeah, I've enjoyed the, the build up. I've enjoyed the, the pressure of the last few days of what this game means. And as we get closer and closer, it's actually become a lot easier, if that makes sense. You know, that's how I deal with, you know, big things and big moments is just. Yeah, look at it, look at it. Front on and take it on and just deal with all those emotions that come with it. Because, you know, what, what else are you supposed to do? Don't let the moment overcome me. Or feel like it's going to control me. Yeah, I just go out there and put all that kind of stuff to the side and do what I need to do in every situation that I get put in and try my absolute best.

That's you. What about other members of your team, those who actually perhaps don't have quite that clarity of thought, if you like, and experience, how are you looking after them?

Well, I think experience is the big word there. Got an understanding that quite a few of the guys in the dressing room won't have that to be able to fall back on. And what I feel like I've had to do is fall back on my own experiences and voice that to the group because I had to just, yeah, as I say, like, remind myself that, you know, I remember what it was like the first time that I ever felt what this was like, and I've been able to go back and use that to my own advantage. Whereas right now, you know, I got a couple of guys who probably, you know, haven't been in a situation like this or felt what it's like. So explaining it and using, you know, going into a little bit more detail around the group, around. This is what I do, this is what I feel like. This is how I deal with those kind of things. And then when you get out there, it's, yeah, just playing the game for what it is, what's in front of you. And, yeah, the only battle that should be going on is you versus the other person who's there to either try and get you out or try and score runs against you, because that is what cricket is. It's just trying your hardest to not let the guy at the other end outdo you, but also knowing that it can happen even if you do go out over that mine. But if we can get that right this week in terms of our mindset mentality towards the situation, what we need to do, and then marry that up of the skill that that dressing room possesses. We've given ourselves the best possible chance of being able to win this week and then hopefully go on and win the series.

Yeah, you had the break in, Lucer, and the photographs of you relaxing. What was going on behind the scenes. I mean, the last time I spoke to you, you had some pretty strong things to say about the team and what you wanted to achieve before this Test match. What did you do?

Yeah, so the best thing was just to let that sort of sift around and you do it deliberately.

Did he just drop that bit of a bomb?

Yeah, look, there was Obviously a bit of emotion attached to it. And sometimes when you are emotional, things come out, you know, not necessarily in the right way, but that's fine.

They knew the captain wasn't happy.

Yeah. However they've taken it, I think it's. It's good because it's simmered around, it's settled, come together, had a chat and chat's done now. So it's about going out there and performing to the best of our capabilities. And, yeah, you know, I've probably voiced, well, used my voice a lot more than I probably have over the last three and a half years, because again, we're in, you know, we are in a situation here where we know we need to win three games. And as the captain, I was sort of like, well, I need to do that. So I ain't gonna look back on this series. I told him and go, I wish I'd said that. I wish I'd done this because I need to be able to go out there this week and give the best account of myself as a captain as well as a player. So, yeah, there's a few things that obviously I felt the group needed to hear, but also there was a few things that I needed to feel like I needed to say to be able to go out there with. With a very, very clear head about the swing.

Can words put the mistakes right? Can words make them play better?

You certainly hope so, and proof will be in the pudding. But what I have done is definitely left no stone unturned in terms of the mental side of the game, you know, about what we're going into. Expectations are around what, you know, we want to see this week. You know, I've spoke a lot about fight and determination and grit over the last couple of days, you know, to the cameras and in the dressing room in a bit more detail. So, yeah, I think we're going to see. Well, I hope we're going to see completely different thing this week purely because of the situation that we find ourselves in here.

Yeah, tactics. The Adelaide Oval is quite unique, isn't it? Short boundaries to the side, long straight. Couple of things about that. The short pitch bowling attack comes, I suspect, with a bit more risk here. And the long boundaries suggest that you could have played a specialist spinner, to use that term. How do you feel about both those things?

Yeah, look, you come here and the dimensions are completely different to the other two grounds that we played at. But the short ball ploy is a plan that you've seen a lot of teams go to, especially when the don't know, you're sort of looking for a wicket or you're looking to change the momentum or the pace of the game and it's something that I think at some point you'll see both teams turn to. But yeah, it is a little bit different to have to think about how you use that, where you use that, who you use it against, purely just because of the dimensions of the ground. But yeah, as you said as a bowling group and talking about our plans and recess and all that kind of stuff in this gap that we've had, it's funny, you talk about every battle, you go like top of off the baseball and it's about executing that as much and as often as that.

Hasn't changed much, frankly.

No, hasn't even changed all the way.

Back when you played, I guess, 1978 here, first ball.

And that's the thing. And it's just been, you know, everyone is so clear around plans this week with both back with both balls and so it's about going out there and executing that as much as we possibly can.

Yeah. And I mentioned the long boundaries and you haven't picked a specialist spinner as such. According Jack's a battery bolt offspin. Thoughts on that? On show, Bashir, this might have been the opportunity he'd have looked at and hoped to have played here.

Yeah, I think when you look at obviously the first two grounds that we're playing at, you sort of look at those two and you go, right, well, Bashir's probably going to come into the team later on in the series anyway. But we didn't plan on being 20 down. We are where we are. We've had to make some big and tough decisions in the past around changing the 11 to get the balance and to get the plays in that we thought was going to give us the best chance of winning and we've had to do that here. We know that we need to take 20 wickets to win a game, but we feel runs are just as important as wickets this week, so. So, yeah, look, we are where we are and we will always pick an 11 that we think is going to give us the best chance of winning the game. And as I said what I said around Bash, if it comes down to having to choose our best spinner in the squad, that has not changed. It's just a situation that we find ourselves in.

Just last one. Brendan McCullum talks a lot about the blueprint and the way that you play. Is this crunch time for the blueprint? Do you think this game this game is. Well, yeah, it all comes to a head. It either works or it doesn't.

Well, I mean, look, the blueprint, I don't know how many times I'm going to say this. It's applying, absorbing, chase the ball out. I'd leave everything out there. Those are the four pillars that this team is working around. And look, we know that there are, you know, out of those four, the one that we haven't been able to consistently do when the moment has arisen, absorb that pressure. And yeah, at times, this series in particular, we've been presented with times of that and we've just not been able to be good enough to do that.

So.

We'Ve spoken about those type of moments and it's about the guys who are out there in those moments identifying them. And as I said, using your mind along with the skill that they have and applying yourself in the way that you feel is best to do what is required.

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It feels a little bit to me agar seeing him in the press conference, watching his body language talking to you, that he knows that he is a bit on his own, that he hasn't got the leaders, the generals around him that he would want to have and he is desperate to impose those messages on the players. And I wonder if you think he can do it.

Yeah, I mean in some ways I don't think he's concerned about that because he is a leader. I mean I think Stokes likes to be the man in charge. I just, I just think he relishes that, you know, grab the game by the scruff of the neck. Look at the, you know, the great moments he's had in cricket. He's done it himself. So I, I, I, I don't know about that so much. I mean I don't see him talking to Joe Root, I don't see him talking to Harry Brook. When they're out there in, in the field, he, he, he does it himself.

Should he talk to them more?

Well, not necessarily. I mean, I think the one time maybe where it really did get away with him was at Sanctilings in Perth when there's a mayhem. Admits he just lost, he lost control of the game. But I think Stokes is the sort of fellow who actually relishes the pressure of being by himself. Now as in that interview, you'll have heard me say, but that's you Ben. But what about the others? You know, if you've got other people in your team who actually Aren't like you. They haven't. They aren't. They haven't got that sort of clarity of thought and that experience. He picked up on experience, didn't he? Those, those, you know, who've actually. The lack of experience of a number of his players for this sort of fight. And that's interesting. He knows it. He knows what the situation is. The other thing that surprised me as well, we talked about the short pitch bowling and the attack and so on, and he said, well, you know, we've got a bowl top of off stump. Nothing's changed since when you were playing.

So did you hit it Agusbarg?

Always. That makes the cast Atkinson decision quite an interesting one. And that is purely character because the man who's going to run up and hit the top of off stump actually bowled quite nicely as Atkinson. And the man who's going to come and bang the ball in halfway down on these short boundaries is cast. So there's a little that. That doesn't quite make sense for me. I mean, I remember Dougie Bollinger running in here, dug the rug. Bowling bounces non stop at Kevin Peterson, who just stood there like a. Like a baseball hitter and he kept sticking and that stand wasn't there, but he. I mean, he would have demolished that stand if it was there. He just kept smashing him because it is such a short boundary. And I do hope, I do hope that England think twice because it suggests when you go there, as Stokes said in that interview, that you'd be really looking for a wicket. It smacks a bit of desperation and I would be disappointed if I saw England go to that tactic too quickly on this particular ground.

I just think about when you say, Ellie, does Ben Stokes feel like he's alone and I'm with Agars, that I don't think that bothers Ben Stokes, but that doesn't mean that others can't step up and show leadership. And I look at someone like Ben Duckett, who usually buzzes around in the field. He's usually in Ben Stokes here. We haven't seen too much of that so far in this series. I look at, you know, the responsibility, if you want to call it responsibility or opportunity or reward or whatever that guys were given by the opportunity to go and have a holiday in Noosa. Well, are you going to repay that faith now with a performance this week and then just going through the England team? Has Harry Brook acted like a vice captain so far on this tour? I would argue that he hasn't. Just going down the list of England's all time leading Test appearance makers, Ollie Pope has played more tests than Ted Dexter, Steve Harmerson and Chris Woakes. Zach Crawley has played as many tests as Jack Hobbs and Raymond Dillingworth. Do those guys act like they've got that sort of test experience? I would argue that they don't. Can some of these guys help out Ben Stokes and Joe Root and Joffre Archer? I would say I'd throw that in there.

It's also interesting and I'm with you, you've named three batsman there. Yeah. And it's usually the batsman who steps up to come the next captain of England, isn't it? None of those fit the bill for me. You're not gonna say, oh, there's the future England captain. None of them though.

Remember, there is no Wokes, Broad and Anderson who's standing at mid on. If Stokes is at mid off and you've got someone at the end of their mark, it was usually Anderson, Broad or Wokes at mid on having a three way cut. There's none of that at the moment.

And the interesting thing as well, I don't know if people heard Matt Pryor speaking to Mark Chapman last night on 5 Live and saying, actually you need your wicketkeeper to be the drummer of the band, to be a dynamic personality, you know, I mean, Alex Carey, you know, he's one of the nicest men in cricket. I think Barrett, but, but he is that leader. And the way he stood up to the stumps.

Absolutely pain in the neck.

Wicketkeepers are not a pain in the neck.

They need to annoy the hell out of the batsuit and just be jealous, generating enthusiasm out there. A lot of it's, a lot of it's nonsense, to be honest, you know. Come, come on lads. Well, anyone can shout. Come on lads, you can shout it from here. But it's that. So it is that beating of the drum that you talk about with the wicket keeper and you don't, you don't hear much from Smith.

I think going back to your point, I guess of Australian fans, I mean they like England being beaten 5 0, but there is a lot of disappointment about, yes, the performance of the team, but also the attitude of this English team on the field. Because what we saw in 2023 felt like a different England team. And you're right, Stefan, it was. There were players with a lot more experience and who. And honestly, watching Ben Stokes captain at times, I'm reminded of when Vat Kohi had just taken over the Indian team, where you saw it on the Field, you. You suddenly felt like there were a lot of young cricketers trying to impress him. Like, they weren't focused on the best versions of themselves. It was more about the. The best version they thought that Verat had of them. And that put off a lot of cricketers. And then you really need to be an exceptional cricketer to stand up and find your own feet. And that's why I find net sessions around England very funny. Where, you know, Zack Crawley is an interesting one. He comes and, you know, he'd been nicked off a couple of times in Perth. You go to Brisbane and the only messaging was, oh, you, you hitting the ball hard last time. Just hit it harder, Zach. And they're like, yeah, cool. And then he's just hitting the ball harder. And I actually agree with what Brendan McCallum said about too many net sessions because there seem to be no rhyme or reason to a lot of net sessions that England have, except with Joe Root and Ben Stokes, where you can see that they're working on something. Maybe it's their experience, maybe they know their game better and that's what. And yes, we've had only six days of cricket. It feels like we've been talking about the series for six years. And it. It. They speak about basball and freedom, but we haven't seen that from this English team, which is what is confusing.

You can only do so much in the nets. You should be playing games of cricket. There is no better, better thing to do than actually playing games of cricket.

But when you say, Barrett, about the Australian public wanting this England team to be competitive, do they want this particular England team to be competitive? Because there feels like something about the basballers, if you will, that really winds the Aussies up and would like nothing more than to put this particular England team in their place. Am I right?

You are right. I mean, they were annoyed, but with them and the narrative around them in 2023. But they haven't seen that England team over here yet. And. And even the breakfast show that I host here and the text messages this morning, they were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we want Australia to win 5, 0, but can England be a little more competitive so that we get some decent Test cricket? Because it's. Yeah, it's been. The messaging has been confusing this time because. Let's go back to Lords. Right at the end of that Test match, the Johnny Bestow incident had happened. Yes. But when Ben Stokes came out and said, we will. There's moral victories and we want to win 3, 2, even from an Australian perspective, You felt like, yeah, there is some truth to it because Australia somehow were 20 up. But this time it just feels like they've. Except that first evening in Perth, they've.

Just been on top of quickly Agar's thoughts about Josh Tongue coming in for Gus Atkinson. Is that, Is that the right move, do you think, do you think the team is pretty much what you would have expected or what you should be playing?

Here it is down. Down to seven. I didn't expect Basho to play. I think he needs to go away and play some games of cricket. I know it sounds terrible, like an old world record.

Why is he here?

Well, indeed. Well, because they made the decision that they're not going to have Jack Leach and there's nobody else. I mean, he needs to learn his game. So does Bethel. Bethel needs a season of playing county cricket, has to discover his game and to learn how to play in the bigger situation. And I really hope that they look back at those selections and the way they've been handled, the management of those two players in particular, and realize that actually, it hasn't really done them any favors. Josh Tongue has always been different. His arm is way back, extended behind his head. It's unusual. And coming from that angle, it only has to do just a little fraction. And actually it seems like a great big leg cutter. He's got some pace. I know we know he had. He's had injury problems, but. Yeah, I mean, I think, I think they had to, they had to do. They had to make a change or two. I'm glad they didn't drop Ollie Pope and put Bethel in there. I just don't think that would have been a better option. I'm not saying that Pope is the right option, but I don't think Bethel playing instead of him at this stage would have been. And in this, on, on this stage, we saw what happened at the oval. That's why I go back to that point about he needs to learn his game. So it's just shuffling the pack, isn't it? But it's, it's, it's, it's trying something that's a little bit different. But I get the cast, big heart, the energy, the effort and all that. But I still think that Gus Atkinson, for me, would have been a better selection. I just think he bowls that fuller length, he nibbles the ball around, you.

Know, you know, the whole basball philosophy or this English team, they spoke a lot about unpredictability. And just on the selection that England have made in the last two games. The fact that the Australian team management knew that Jax was going to play three days before the team was announced, the fact that they knew Tung was going to play three days out kind of tells me that this English team is more predictable than they think they are. And that's why Australia have kind of sat free and only got so many.

Players in the squad, though.

No, that is true as well. Yeah, exactly. No, but the fact that they kind of don't expect this English team to do anything out of the ordinary, whereas it's Australia who done that. When Travis Head's entrance music hit at Perth, the series was changed. Then they pulled out the NISA card out of nowhere and made him play again in place of Nathan Lyon. So if it's anything, it's Australia who actually played the kind of cricket that England think they do.

I understand.

Yeah. Well, as far as the Australian selection is concerned, concerned, we've got Lyon and Cummings returning for Doggett and Nisa. Pat Cummings hasn't played a game of cricket since July, but he returns to lead the side after a back injury. He's been with the ABC's Aaron Bryans.

Pat, you must have been chomping at the bit watching Australia go 2 nil up and now you finally get a chance to return to the Ashes Arena. How you feeling?

Yeah, absolutely pumped. It's great to watch the first couple of tests. Yeah. Kind of wish I was out there, but the boys were fantastic and, yeah, pretty excited now to get in amongst it.

So, two changes. Nathan Lyons comes back alongside you. Michael, Nisa, Brendan Doggett out there would have been a strong allure to get Usman Khawaja back into the team as well. A luxury to have him fit. Why did you resist it in the end?

You know, absolutely. Someone of his class to sit on the bench shows we're in a pretty.

Good spot at the moment.

Yeah, I think Trav Head's been the one big, big moving part for us. He's looked fantastic up the top batting with Weatherall, so didn't feel like we wanted to move on that and we're pretty happy with how the middle order is functioning. So. Yeah, unfortunately, no place for Aussie this.

Week, so the Aussies rolling with Nathan Lyon. The English side have decided against Shoi Bashir. Can you tell us about the importance of spin on the Adelaide over wicket and why you've made that decision?

Look, we really value spin. You know, we're lucky we've got someone of Nathan's caliber in our side. It always does seem to spin a Little bit here. So it's not only days four and five, you know, dare say Nathan getting himself into the game quite early here and does seem to spin on day one. So I always love having a spinner unless we think it's an extreme pink ball test. So, yeah, his values important. It's going to be hot as well. So I dare say, you know, we need someone to bowl pretty, you know, a fair bit of overs. It'll fall squarely on me.

You mentioned last night during the Test match dinner that this is one of the most consistent wickets you've ever played on. Ed Cowan said on the ABC Cricket podcast that it's a bowl first wicket. Do you feel the same sentiment heading into tomorrow?

We'll have the toss and yeah, we'll see. I don't know where Eddie's pulled that one from. I think they just do a great job here. The ground is whether it's T20 one day or test match, it always looks really consistent. I think there's always something for batters.

And balls in terms of the heat as well. So we're going to push towards 40 across a couple of days. Does that tactically play a factor as to can you bat for a long period of time and keep England in the field in the hot sun?

I mean, ideally in the pink ball last week you saw our batters bat for time, trying to kind of place our bowling at the right position. So, you know, if we get that opportunity again, of course that comes into it. Yeah, maybe how you manage the bowlers becomes important in the heat, but, you know, we've all grown up here so.

We'Re used to it.

You've spoken a lot about the drawn series a few years ago in England and being 2 nil up and not being able to capitalise on that. All you need is a draw come this week and you're able to retain the earn. But how important is it to you to actually win and potentially sweep the series?

Yeah, I mean, we're never playing for draw, we're always trying to win. So, I mean, if we can get it done here, that would be fantastic. You know, the boys have been fantastic the first two tests. You know, how good to knock it over 3 0. That would be pretty good. And we can relax for the last two.

Well, that was Pat Cummins speaking to Aaron Brands from the abc. Yeah, he had a big smile on his face. Pat Cummins. He was chatting to you guys as well, Barack with the SEN team, our commentary friends next door here at the Adelaide Oval. I mean, he Couldn't wipe the smile off his face, could he, really? Because he's. He's come back at the perfect time for him. He is fully fit. He obviously didn't really want to play at Brisbane because he would have been limited to the number of overs that he could have bowled and. But his comeback is remarkable, really. Any questions, though, that he hasn't played since July?

No, I don't think so because he has been bowling the house down, albeit in the net. But he's someone. Because of all the injuries he had as a young kid, I think he knows his body better than most other fast bowlers do because he's had to deal with so much. So when he says he's 100% with his back and when he says he wasn't 100% last week about playing in Brisbane, you just trust him and sort of blindly. And you are right. I mean, he's been chomping at the bits to be a part of the series because not winning that series in 2023 really hurt and Pat doesn't give much away. But there was that afternoon in Manchester when, you know, they went after him and they. He did look clueless and he's been waiting for this moment ever since.

He didn't have any of my nonsense, did he, when I asked him about that.

Oh, he's gone for an S, right. He didn't go after you.

Well, he just flat back, complete straight back. When I asked him about being 2.

Nil up and quite simple for England. You bat for two days, 35°, 39°. Let's see how Pat Cummins feels when he drags, drags himself off the field. England have scored 600 and we'll see how he feels after that because there's no substitute for play.

Well, he, he was asked, wasn't he, about. About the toss. If, if he were to win the toss again because he's got a great record of winning the toss, what would you do? And Stephanie said, he said, I'm not.

Going to be Nasser Hussein. Then Stokes, he said, I'm going to be batting. Which surprised me, actually, because I actually thought that, I suppose bringing this conversation full circle in terms of England's approach, that this is the place to basball. This is the most ground most suited to bassballing. Play your shots, bat second, you know, chase a total. All those different things. Coming back to Pat Cummins, though, one thing, interesting thing, he really. That made me sit up and take notice. He said his recovery should have been three to four months and he's managed to cram it into six to seven weeks, which I thought was really interesting because you'll know, Aggers, you can bowl in the nets at 100 as often as you want, but time on feet.

Well, that was my point. If he's out there for two days, if he can do the job, they bat first and they do the proper job, Cummins will be a bit exhaustive and he comes off that field. So that's what they have to do.

Because I feel like actually a lot of this conversation has been about not negativity but realism about England's chances and how England have played in the first two Test matches and the job that they've got in front of them over the next few days. And like you said, Barrett, you think Australia are just getting stronger. Well, actually, Australia have just made a decision to pretty much end the career of Usman Kawaja. They have bought back Pat Cummins after six or seven weeks when he should have had three or four months out. Nathan Lyon hasn't got a great record bowling in the fourth innings of Test matches. And this is the ground that kick started the 1011 Ashes. There you go. There's my optimism for England.

Optimism for England, I guess. Have you got any?

Well, yes, I do because there have been moments in the first two Test matches in which they should have taken control of the game and they failed. They have at least had two test matches and games of cricket behind them. Now we don't really know what's happened in new service. I said to Stokes, you know, can words actually change the way that they're playing? And he more or less said, well, they have to. And they do have to, because all the conversations we've had, we're having for weeks about this tour and the preparation, everything else, this comes down to the crunch. They've had two test matches with a second string Australian attack. I mean, if they've lost in two games in six days against, well, it's the weakest Australian attack I've seen for years, so. And now we've got Cummins back, you've got lion back. You know, this is, it's, I hope this isn't a series that you look back and whatever it may be at missed opportunities, missed opportunities for proper preparation, missed opportunities for beating basically a second string attack because they were opportunities, they were opportunities and they've chosen a different path or they've just played badly. You know, we just have to wait and see. But they haven't got to improve massively on where they were. They've got to improve consistency, they've got to soak up pressure and they've got to be much more selective about their shots. If they do those things, then yeah, I mean it's a two horse race, isn't it?

Three test matches left in the series, England backs against the walls just as it was in 2023. But that was back at home, let's not forget that. But anyway, we will see what the next five days bring us. Thank you so much to Jonathan, Stefan and Barat. Remember Test Match Special we'll have full ball by ball commentary of this crucial third Test match on 5 Sports Extra and BBC Sounds from 1055 on Tuesday evening with play underway at 1130. We'll have a PODC with interviews and analysis each day, plus highlights and a daily Ashes debrief with Alex hartley on the BBC iPlayer. Thanks for listening. It's now or never for England.

The TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds this winter, cricket's oldest rivalry is reignited. England and Australia do battle to compete for the Ashes. That is extraordinary. Here, live ball by ball commentary on 5 Sports Extra and get analysis and reaction of every day's play with the.

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