The Ashes: England right to stick to Plan A with batters' prep, says Alec Stewart

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds hello, this is Eleanor Aldroyd in Brisbane where England have arrived ahead of next week's second Men's Ashes test. One nil down in the series after a Perth humbling inside two days, there's been plenty of time for introspection, debate and planning to try and get the series back on track. There's still plenty of opportunity to do so, but defeat here would leave them having to achieve something only one side has ever done when the great Don Bradman's Australia fought back to win a series from 20 down in 1937. During the next hour we'll be hearing from England and Surrey icon Alex Stewart on why England's decision to stick together rather than split the group to play an additional warm up match is the right one. And we'll get the inside track on what playing at the Gabba is like from Stephen Finn, a key member of the last England team to win a Test in Australia in the Triumphant tour of 2010. 11 TMS at the Ashes. Well, with me in the Queensland Sunshine is the BBC's chief cricket reporter Stefan Schemelt and 2017 World cup winner Alex Hartley. Hello both.

Good morning, how we doing?

Good morning, good afternoon and good evening. Because we're still very confused about the time difference. We're two hours further ahead than we were in Perth and it's also a lot hotter Alex, that's the first thing to say. It is steamy here.

Yeah. I walked out the hotel to get some lunch and it was. It hit you, didn't it? It hit you. I felt like my sunglasses were steaming up. I was on my phone for the map to see where I could go and grab some sushi and that had condensation all over it. So it's very, very steamy here. Complete different. Completely different. Sorry, to Perth just a few days ago.

I mean, I went for. I've been on lots of nice walks in Perth, Steffi. I went for a walk around the Botanic Gardens here this morning. I had to come back and have another shower because it was so warm. And I think that's a point, you know, it's a point worth making about how England are going to prepare over the next few days here in Brisbane.

Well, firstly, well done you for having another shower. I think it's quite interesting. Is it because the temperature here has gone up, but the sort of temperature around the debates, I think of what England are doing or have been doing has cooled down a little bit and there are reasons for that. You know, there's distance between now and what happened in the first Test in Perth, distance between their decision of who they were sending to Canberra. And England have made extra plans. That's the first thing to say for what they're going to do in Brisbane. So initially they would have only been training ahead of the. The second Test from Monday. Now they've got plans to train on Sunday and Saturday as well. Four days at the Gabba from Sunday. There'll be two sessions under lights on Monday and Wednesday and then an extra session at Allen Border Field on Saturday morning. I can't remember a time under Stokes and McCullum when England have trained for five days in the run up to a Test match. The only time they would have had such an extended training block would have been on sort of a pre tour camp, say when they went to India or Pakistan and trained in Abu Dhabi or Dubai before then. So that is a long old time for this, this England team to be training. And I think that the sort of thing you're alluding to, Ali, is the conditions here make sense of England's decision not to go to Canberra.

And. And is that what you think as well, Alex? Because, you know, we've just been looking at the Bureau of Meteorology website and it's, it's at least 10 degrees cooler in Canberra than it is here. Very different.

Very, very different. The conditions are so different. So it does make sense. And you, you know, the, there's been heated debates over the last few days of whether it's the right or the wrong decision. And you know, ex players have come out and defended England. Some have, you know, gone against them as well, saying they need to hit more balls. But you know, when you get here and you feel the temperature difference, I mean, it's still a breeze, but it's not a cool breeze, it's a warm breeze. And I think that, you know, the conditions are so different when you go to Canberra. It's going to be cool at night as well. It's 23 degrees during the day. At night it's going to drop down to about 15. It's completely different here. It's going to drop down to about 28 at night. So you know, it's a day night game. Exactly. So the conditions are totally different. So you, I, I do completely understand why they've only sent three people to Canberra.

I, I think what it comes down to is a matter of opinion, isn't it? So you, on the one hand, you could say so long since the first Test you've lost, you haven't batted particularly well and you are playing the second Test with a pink ball where your record is poor against a very good Australian team. And there will be two members of the England team, I think, Jamie Smith and Gus Atkinson, who've never played in a pink ball game. So go to Canberra, play in the pink ball game. That's one argument. The other argument is totally different. Keep the squad together, you can control your training at the Gabba. You might not get what you need out of the, the game in Canberra, you get what you need in Brisbane. Matters of opinion. Problem is, England have lost the PR war, really, in the past couple of days, no one has come out to explain essentially the decision that they've made since Ben, Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum spoke after the Perth Test. One person who did put their point of view forward was Alex Stewart. I spoke to him and he told me why he thinks England were right not to split up the group and send the entire first Test 11 to Canberra.

It's important that they don't panic. The outside noise is very loud, but when you're inside that bubble, be aware of it, but block as much of it out as you can so that you're making well thought through decisions and not being influenced by what the media are saying, perhaps what's being said on social media. McCullum and Stokes are two very fine leaders. Let them do it. They'll be critical internally about how they played in Perth. I'm pretty certain of that. They'll be honest and realistic outwardly. They're always going to protect their own because that's what good leadership is about.

You know, you talk about the noise and blocking that out and not panicking. It would have been quite easy actually England to change plans, wouldn't it? They've lost in two days and think right we've got to go to Canberra. But do you think it shows a strength of leadership and a strength of character to not divert from their plan?

Yeah, if you, as I say, naughty boy, Mets are not, you know, you didn't play very well, you missed out there, you know, go and play in camera, you know that's not how they work and it's not how you should work. Everything is very carefully planned. Yes, you always have to be adaptable and flexible. I get that. But you know, if they're talking around the individuals and you know, by the way what is the quality of the opposition if they're playing a, let's call it a grade side, you know, facing Southern bowling at 75 mile an hour and I don't know what the side is so I'm just speaking generically there or facing your archers and the others in the nets with real pace. Is that better preparation? You know what are they going to do in Brisbane? Are they going to get some centre wicket practice and it's going to be full on focus as I call it, real hard good practice. I don't know that, you know, I don't know if you know that and if they are doing that type of thing, well done them because they're sticking to their plans and they are preparing how they want to go into into Brisbane without listening to what you know the outside world is thinking and always say succeed or fail. As long as you can say to yourself I did my best then you can be judged. And that's what I'm saying is just say it went wrong and they lose in Brisbane but they said no, we believe this was the right way. Then they can't do any more. If they went, they go to Brisbane, lose. But they sent five players to Cameron, they go well, we split the group up. The team ethos and the team together misdisappeared because of the two day loss. So you look at it both ways but at the moment emotions are still running high. I get it, you know, 100%. I've played in the seven Ashes series last storm seven. I came here I think in four Ashes series, we didn't win. And so I get all the emotion. But when you're in the decision makers in the inner circle, can you just take a step back and go, yep, the outside noise, they're not going to influence our decisions. And then your McCullum's, your Stokes to players, etc. Can be judged accordingly.

You mentioned naughty boy nets, and I remember that phrase coming up quite a lot during the 90s. Just tell us what it's like when I know you've suffered a defeat is the last thing you want to hear right now. Get yourselves back up.

I'll tell you what, Test cricket is hard, you know, and yeah, they've lost in two days, but I don't see what. Why they should go outside of what they had planned. That is all. And I'll sort of flip it back. And I'm not here to protect England, I'm just trying to call it as I see it in a position, in my experience is if we'd won in two days, which everyone thought we would, come lunchtime on day two, would anyone be saying they should? And it's still low scores, by the way, should they be going to Canberra? You know, oh, and that's what I get. Oh, because the game finished in two, that's three days they haven't played and it's still, what is it, 11, 12 days before the next Test. Oh, that's a really long time. Would they be saying, let's go to Canberra? I'm not giving you the answer, but do you see what I'm trying to say is when you're in the inner sanctum, stick to your guns, talk about it, be flexible, be adaptable, but still make the decision that you believe is right for the group and not what the outside world is perhaps thinking.

Some of the team that played in the first Test have never played a pink ball game. I think Jamie Smith and Gus Atkinson, two players that you know well are.

Two of them, would there have been.

A benefit to those guys?

If they get two first ballers, what's happening? If they get 100, great. But can they get as. That's what I'm talking about. Can they get as good practice at the Gabba on services? Because the nets used to be. And I'm again speaking a little bit historically here, the net pitches at the Gabba were brilliant and mirrored the center wicket at the Gabba, so. And there they can bat for as long as they like. So do you sort of see where I'm coming from? And I get it. You know about go and play the Tudor. I really do understand that, but they've chosen not to. So there's no point, there's no point talking about it, otherwise this would be even more dull than it is already. But they've made that decision. Let them get on with it, then they can be judged otherwise. All we're ever doing is talking about things we can't influence. So go with them, back them. And can we bounce back? It's going to be tough, don't worry about that. But at least they have prepared their way and haven't wavered because of. Keep saying the outside noise.

Well, that was former England captain Alex Stewart and it's very interesting, the point of view that he's taking. He said, basically, I mean, we don't know what's going on inside the group. That's the thing, you know, we're not privy to the discussions, to the planning, to the way that they will have worked these things out meticulously. But. But is it right for them to block out that outside noise and stick to their inside plan?

Absolutely. And there's. There's another thing with the. The camera game, the timing of the camera game. Had the. The camera game been now, you know, you, you. There might be more of an argument for a couple of lads to go and hit some balls and then have a day off and then get back into training. But the timing of it doesn't quite work either. But you've got to stick together, you've got to block out the outside noise. I Remember back in 2017, as a team, we decided no newspapers, no news, no press. That was. That was our thing that we did. No social media whatsoever. So we all came off social media. No one read the newspapers, no one looked at the press. Because ultimately, what we're saying as press or back then, what you're saying is press shouldn't affect what we're doing, it shouldn't affect our prep and our camp. It's all about us and how we are and how we feel as a group. And look, we lost that first game against India and I'm sure there was some noise around the fact that that's not how England need to start a World Cup. That's not how England need to, you know, maybe preparation. We played against Sri Lanka. Could we have played against better teams? But we didn't see any of that because we were concentrating on ourselves. We came away from that first game and said, look, we move, it's one game, there's still plenty more to play for.

I think that the thing to say is that we're not here to defend England or be cheerleaders for this approach that they've taken. And the three of us sitting around this table now can totally understand both sides of the argument. I understand why Jonathan Agnew and Michael Vaughan are saying, go to. Go to Canberra, play in the pink ball game, get experience in conditions that you're not used to. But England's argument, and admittedly we've had to sort of piece that together ourselves because no one's spoken to us, is totally understandable as well. I think what I do take exception to is some of the coverage that England have attracted over the past few days. Allegations of arrogance, not caring about Test cricket, disrespecting the Ashes or whatever. By taking this method, this England team aren't arrogant at all.

Could they have actually done a bit of a PR offensive here, Alex, and come out and, you know, gone to meet the fans in Perth and sign?

What does that mean?

It would make people feel as if England care because you know, you're always.

Going to get know as fans that they do care. If they didn't care, they wouldn't turn up and play. You know, you play for your country, everybody pulls on that shirt and looks down with the three lions. You get your Test cap and it's everything you've ever dreamed of as a kid. So if there's fans saying they don't care, that's their perception, that's what they think as a player. When you pull on your kit, you never feel pride like it. So obviously they care. They're all playing for their. If they didn't care, they'd often be playing franchise cricket and retiring from the international game.

Last week Ben Stokes did a briefing for written journalists and he was asked about the two year contract that he signed, the new two year deal that he signed before this tour when it was sort of suggested to him, you know, this might have been a finale. You could go and spend the last years of your career playing franchise cricket. And he said, no, no, I think I've got an amount of time left as a cricketer. I'm going to wring everything I can out of my body and I want to do it in an England shirt. You can't question Ben Stokes.

Oh, Harry Brook turning down the iplad that could go and earn millions and he's gone. No, I learn the money I earn playing cricket for England. He's been banned from the IPL for two years because he pulled out. If you're questioning if these Blokes care or not actually think about it.

If you think, what has Ben Stokes been through in the past two years to put his body back together? Shoulder, hamstring, knee. Think about what we know about some of the characters, Mark Wood, another one, Joffre Archer, put his body back together to play Test cricket. Just some of the characters that we know. Jamie Smith is not an arrogant person. Neither is Shahid Bashir, recent departee from the England team, Chris Woakes, the least arrogant man you could ever wish to meet. I, I, I don't, I haven't quite formulated in my mind what I think about their plan, whether they should have gone to Canberra or not. I respect both sides of the opinion. I will take exception to criticism of their attitude.

Before we move on, the question going back to the preparation and the fact that they're here in Brisbane now and they are going to practice for two more days than they might originally have planned to. As Stefan says, can you replicate match conditions in the nets at the Gabba.

If they're training under lights? When the lights come on and you know you're at dusk and you've got Joffre Archer and Mark Wood bowling to Jamie Smith and Ben Stokes and Zach Crawley, Ben Duckett, absolutely. It's a different sort of intensity. If you hit the ball up in the air in the nets, you don't quite know where it's going. I understand that, but you can. Playing match cricket is different, I understand, but you can still get that intensity, you can still get that challenge. So, look, there are, I'm with Stefan. There are arguments to go hit balls in a game. But look, had you sent Zach Crawley, Ben Duckett, Joe Root to Canberra, there is a chance they could all get a first ball duck still, and then actually here they could get out in the net, second ball under lights, but then they carry on training, carry on hitting balls. You don't get that luxury when you're playing in a game.

So I should have been in Canberra with Simon Mann, but after the events the past few days, I've come to Brisbane to be with the England team. I messaged Simon this morning, said, sorry, are you okay? I know you're there on your own, etc. Told him what was going on. England were training for five days and he said, well, they're going to be training too much, aren't they? So you can't, you can't win, can you? England? They're damned if they do and they damned if they don't.

Well, in a moment we'll be Looking at the series more broadly and asking if that alarmingly quick match in Perth is a sign of things to come throughout the next few weeks.

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

Now.

That match in Perth was unusually short, clocking in at under two days, apparently the shortest Ashes Test for 137 years. Well, in the last couple of days, it's been confirmed by the ICC that the surface at the Perth Stadium has been classed as very good, the highest rating for a test pitch, with apparently good carry, limited seam movement and consistent bounce early in the match, allowing for a balanced contest between batters and bowlers. So Stefan and Alex are with me. Are we going to see more games like this? Do we want to? Do we just say the batting was bad?

Just before we get into that?

Yeah.

Is that a little bit of a.

Sledge from Cricket Australia to be putting out that the Perth pitch was rated as very good by the icc? I can't remember a governing body doing that to putting something out to praise their own pitch. Well done us. You lost in two days. The pitch was fine.

Yeah, well, I mean, there wasn't a massive chorus of people saying, oh, that pitch was dreadful.

Not at all. Certainly not when you think of, I don't know, some of the debates we've seen in the past couple of weeks about what's been going on in India when South Africa won there in a very rap. Anyway, we're going off topic, but yeah, the point is that batting is generally getting harder in Australia. I think over the past five years there's been quite a big drop in the average length that a test match is Taking here, I think it's about almost a day's worth of time that Test matches are over more swiftly. Quite a few reasons for that. The pitches is one of them. The new kookaburra ball, which was introduced five years ago, has a bigger seam. The. The theory is that it does a little bit more for the scene bowlers. It does it for longer as well. And the other thing, which I think Alex is going to like as an old bowler, that maybe the batting just isn't quite as good as it used to be.

Yeah, well, you know, I was always such a slog back in my day, wasn't it? No, it's funny, isn't it, when you. When you look at the. The games and the surfaces and how long Test cricket is going on for now, the game has changed, batter's techniques have changed, the batter's mindsets have changed. So, you know, you look at the way Dom Sibley used to go about his innings and he would. It was almost like he wouldn't try and score runs. He would try and bat for time. So you go, we've got five days. Let's try and bat for two and a half of them and get 600, hundred on the board and then try and only bat once. Whereas now it's like, let's try and get 600 on the board as fast as possible and. But try and be calculated in the way that you're going about your scoring. So the mindset has changed. You know, when you look at Ducket doesn't leave any balls. He left one ball in Perth and we all looked at each other and said, oh, my. Oh, my word, he's left the ball. So you've still got to pick and choose, you know, the. The right. The right time, sorry, to attack. And I think that's where England went wrong on occasion in that first Test match. But the game has completely moved on batters all around the world. I know we talk about basball and, you know, the, the aggression that England show, but actually, when you look at Australia and how they go about it, and you look at India and at South Africa as well, everybody is more aggressive than they were six or seven years ago.

And. And you've been crunching the numbers specifically about Test matches here in Australia, Steph, haven't you? And yet say it's very startling how. How more frequently wickets fall in terms of runs scored.

Yeah. So in the 20 years between the year 2000 and 2020, a Test match on average in this country would last 335.4 overs in the past five years, that's dropped to 278.1. Big difference. In the same time period, 20 years of 2000 to 2020, overall batting average was 35, strike rate was 60, 64. In the past five years fallen the average to 28.1 and the strike rate to 51.2. And like I said, lots of different reasons for that because I don't. If you remember, Ellie, when we were on the Ashes tour in 2017, 18. Remember that test at Melbourne when Alistair Cook made 264? I think it was. And funnily enough, talking about pitches, the MCG pitch on that occasion got rated as poor, I think I can't remember a press release from Cricket Australia on that occasion, but there was some pretty turgid test cricket played in Australia in the middle of that decade. Since then, pitches have got a little bit spicier. We've got this new kookaburra ball with the bigger scene. Does a little bit more, does it for longer.

I mean, can you explain that? You know, cuz we had the kookabur ball was being used in the county.

Champions send us down a rabbit hole.

Here in a very well, yeah, no, let's ball that's a rabbit hole. That's absolutely fine.

Well, so let's go back to that ashes tour of 201718 when Pat Cumins, Josh Hazelwood and Mitchell Stark were first put together as a trio. How much of the debate was around England not having the pace to get something out of this unresponsive kookabur ball? It's kept going on to the point that the kookabur has been introduced in the County Championship. Not really work. Some pretty dull cricket. But what's also happened on the flip side is this new kookaburra has been introduced. Ordinarily the kookaburra to a bowler, it feels bigger in the hand with a smaller seam. Less likely to do something the jukes used in England. Smaller big seam more likely to wobble around. This new kookaburra nips off the seam more. And for longer it's more likely to keep moving after 50 over, 60 over 70 overs. Batters do not like seam move, movement, pace, bounce of Australian pitches, ball nipping around, recipe for low scores.

I always used to find the the ball in my hand as well, the kookaburra. It felt the seam felt sharper and that's because it was bigger but it felt sharper. So particularly as a spinner, I felt like I could really get hold of the seam and use the seam to my advantage when you've got your fingers across the seam. So as a seamer, if you, if you can feel that seam and you turn the balls slightly in your hand for the wobble ball, it is going to do a little bit more cuz you've got more seam to touch, it just kind of makes more sense. And we saw in that first Test, you know, Mitchell Stark's wobble ball was brilliant, wasn't it? It was unbelievable.

The, and the other thing that Mitchell Stark was just really keen to impress. He came and spoke to the press at the end of the first day when he took those seven wickets. He said look, when there's low scores you guys, the first thing you talk about is the pitch and bad batting. You never give pressure credit to the bowling. And actually I think we can all agree until England got the ball in hand for Australia second innings, the quality of the pace bowling from both sides across that first test was as good as you could want to see.

When you hear some of the Australian media and actually some of the Australian players talking about it in the build up to this series, there was a lot of talk about England's bas ballers are just flat track bullies, they're not going to be able to do it on, on the pitches here. And you could say well what we saw in the first Test, maybe they're right. I mean, is that a fair comment?

I think what England have shown under Brendan McCollum and Ben Stokes over the last few years is how quickly they learn. So actually one of the things is they make mistakes like they have done in that, that first test match. They lose in two days. They learn so, so quickly. I think they're a very, very honest dressing room. I think they, they speak quite openly and candidly with each other which comes across when they come to play their next game. You know, they block us out as media and they don't tell us much, but you can guarantee that they've been harsh on themselves in that dressing room. You know, Mark woods come out and said, you know, he wanted to drive to Brisbane, you know, and, and you know, the dressing room was just not the place he wanted to sit in after the test match. And rightly so, you know, that everyone would have felt gutted. But I think under Brendan McCollum and, and Ben Stokes that they're so honest, they, they do learn quickly. So they'll have had those conversations and.

There are quite a lot of comments to that remark by Mark Wood about wanting to drive. It said English Players should not be driving in Australia after what happened in the first Test with reference to the.

How.

How easy it is to just nick. To slip. You know, how to get dismissed like that. I mean, is that something that they're going to have to change for this test match in here in Brisbane?

The body of work that England have put together under Ben Stokes and Brendan McCollum, their best wins have come on flat pitches. So R. Pindi in Pakistan in 2022, India at ED Baston earlier that year. Great example happened in Multan last year, Alex, you and I were there in Multan. They played two consecutive test matches on the same pitch. On the same pitch. 800 England made in the first. In the first Test, Pakistan decided to use the same surface, get it turning. And when. When the ball does something, either with the spinners or the seamers, England have scored, struggled. And to your point, Ellie. Yes, I think a lot of people's fears about England getting out in Australia was big, booming drives, nicking, playing on. And it's what happened in Perth. Whether or not England can learn from that. Well, we're going to find out on Thursday, aren't we?

If Mark Wood had decided to drive, by the way, and he's not a good flyer, is he? He's terrified of flying. Famously, 4,500km and 46 hours would have been the drive if you decided to do that.

Lots of.

Lots of chance to listen to the. The no Balls podcast, Alex, and our. Our great stable of podcast.

Yeah, I was gonna say we've got. You could get through the whole battery of BBC podcasts in 46 hours.

Wasn't that about how long it took us to land last night when we were circling Brisbane Airport in the storm?

I thought we were gonna land in Darwin.

I know. Yeah, we should say. Actually, the flight in last night was a little bit on the hairy side. We've delayed. Delayed leaving Perth. And then it. There was a lot of circling around at past midnight coming into land, which we eventually did.

It was a painful flight, Elliot. It was awful. And the two guys next to me, I was in the middle. Neither of them wanted to talk to me. I was like, quite right. I know, I know.

Just looking ahead then to the way that England are approaching, you know, where they are now in their group all together out here in Brisbane. I just. I just wonder what you think is going to be going through their minds, because, you know, everybody who's on this tour just felt so completely blown away. And I mean, shell shocked was the word that Ben Stokes used immediately afterwards. And you can't think of a better word for it. But the fact that it was over so quickly, it was over in a blur. Is that, is that an advantage in a way that you just kind of say, okay, that happened, park it. If it had been an agonising five day defeat, then would that have been worse? Would they have. They've been more, been more physically tired by it?

Well, I was going to say they're not going to be physically and mentally tired from that test match, that's for sure. They'll have had a few good days off in, in Perth doing whatever they wanted to do as a team and then they come back and they're like, right back, get your shoes on, back to the nets you go, look, there's arguments for both. They might have learned a few more lessons had they, the game got a little bit longer of how to stay in a game on a pitch that's doing a little bit or equally. You got. Let's. Actually that is the worst game of cricket we've possibly ever played as a team. But only for like 25, 30 minutes, let's say that was that, that was how they lost that test match in that 25, 30 minute block before then they actually played really well. You know, they bowled nicely. I've not seen a bowling Unit under Brendan McCollum, Ben Stokes bowl so well together actually in their whole regime. So look, there are some positives and they'll focus on that because you can't focus on, on the negatives. But yeah, I think losing in two days is, is shell shocking, like Ben said. But actually you get more time to sort of go, well, at least sort of forget about it now.

And Ashes tour is the ultimate examination of an England team. You know, peering into mind, body and spirit. You will go through everything as an England team on an Ashes tour and very few England teams will have to pick themselves up from what this England team. Team have got to come back from what we saw at the weekend, arguably England's worst defeat in Australia, just for the way it unraveled so quickly. You will have seen Ellie on previous Ashes tours. England teams can fall apart. They splinter, little cliques form here and there. People might say things to save their own jobs, whatever. I don't think that will happen under Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullough. If England lose this series, then they lose it badly. I don't think this team will fall apart. I think their group is strong enough to withstand that. Whether they're good enough cricketers, we're going to find out as a group. I think they're pretty tight.

Yeah, I totally agree. I think they are the epitome of one team. We play for each other, we play together, we win, we lose together. We enjoy the environment, we celebrate people's success, success as a team. And when we lose, we lose together. And.

And if they do lose this next test match, because as we were saying, if they go 2 nil down, there is almost no way back. Or historically. Historically, historically, there's no way back. But they don't. They don't really do history, do they?

No. And they won't see it like that. You know, they'll go, yeah, two nil down, there's still three to play for. We'll win three, two. That's exactly the message we'll get if and when they lose in Brisbane.

And again, just to go back to that point, you know, we're talking up England's spirit, those sorts. We're not defending them, we're not that. We're not their cheerleaders. And let's not get this wrong. It's infuriating watching them from time to time. And Saturday in particular was one of the most maddening experiences I've had watching an England team, regardless of. Of who runs it and the style that they play. You're right, Elliot. I can't see any way back from two nil down. And even at that stage, just jobs would start to be questioned. People would be fighting for careers and all sorts. But it would be very England to lose the match they're supposed to win and win the match they're supposed to lose.

Yes, let's just. So we've got a week to go. I mean, that's the extraordinary thing. It feels like ages since the last Test finishes and we've still got another week to go until. Until the next one. Can you see any changes to the different lineups on either side?

Weirdly, I think there'll be more changes to the Australia team than there will be the Australia team that won than to the England team that lost. I think England will play the same team. And we're expecting Pat Cummins to come back to captain Australia.

Head will go to the top of the order, surely.

Yeah.

Well, that's an interesting one, isn't it? Because I have in my hand my very first copy of the Brisbane Courier Mail, which is the local newspaper here that I've seen so far.

Stu.

Abroad's favourite newspaper.

Steve Broad's favourite newspaper. The one. What was. What was it called? The. The.

The Unnamed fast medium bowler. I think at the time you 27 year old fast medium bowler. A smug pommy cheat.

I think it was milder assessment. So. So the back page of the Courier Mail today selection headache. Very good is their headline. Yeah, obviously because anything with head in the title is bang on. Why the call to open with match winner at the Gabba could could backfire for Australia. This is written by Steve Harmison for, you know, former England great bowler. We go back a couple of pages.

A Gabba of course Steve Harnesson.

Yes, absolutely. He said switching open is, is a gamble because he said, you know, basically because head could nick off very early and then where are you yourself?

At least he's batting. Kwaja could have bat well that just.

To take the other point begin with. So we're going to have Pat Cumins coming in. That will give Australia the option of either full.

We definitely are. Do you think?

I think so. He's been bowling with a pink ball in Sydney. If Pat Cumins does come back to captain, they could leave out Nathan Ly and go all pace like I expect England to. Or it would be a decision between boland and brendan.it the batting. If Australia want Travis Head to open, I would expect that opens the door to Josh Inglis who was the reserve batter for the first Test made 100 for the the CA11 against the Lions on Monday. The only thing I would say about Australia as a nation almost they can be quite conservative. They don't deviate from their plan too.

Often cuz they can basball, if you want to call it that but they like to do it a bit further down the order. They don't like their top three to.

Be doing and they would effectively end Usman Ka's career if, if they were to leave him out for this test match match in it on his home ground. No, not having it all.

I think when somebody puts their hand up and plays the innings they did to win a test match in the manner they did, I think you go, you're on, you're feeling it, you're in your purple patch. Make the most of it.

I think if you asked England who would they least like to be walking out to open the bat in on Thursday afternoon They would start say Travis.

Heard imagine the fear. Mark Wood, Ben Stokes are stood at the top there. Mark's going hell, what, what's our next plan?

But I don't know if Australia will do that.

No.

So you, you think that they would stick with Kawaja if he's fit.

I think there's a chance they will. Yeah. I don't necessarily. I think sometimes it takes Australia quite a lot to deviate from plans. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kawaja get another go, but I'm not sure it's what I would do.

And from an England point of view, Alex, you know we saw Zach Crawley obviously is the obvious person whose place could be under pressure.

But as always, as always.

But England don't have another specialist opener.

No, they don't. There's a lot of talk about Ben McKinney, whether or not he would. But look.

So he's with the Lions.

He's with the Lions.

But honestly a huge call.

It's not going to happen.

You're going to call up a Lion alliance player for the second.

Effectively told us that their 11 by the three players that they've sent to camp.

It's not.

Jacob Beth will be the next batter in line. Pots and Tonga be the next seamers in line. They're not here.

Yeah.

Because they're not going to play.

Yeah, it's. It's not going to happen. And there'll be talk on can he Ben McKinney come in and where can he play and can he open the batting. England have stuck with Zack Crawley through for the last however many years. For this Ashes series they're not going to get rid of him after one Test and you know full well it'll be second innings Brisbane, he'll get 150. He won't score another run but therefore his place is cemented.

Yeah, I fully agree. I think it would take the Ashes to be lost in three tests for England to consider leaving Zach Crawley out. He will play in Brisbane. He might even be walking out to face Mitchell Stark on Thursday afternoon to see if he can at least survive one over this time around.

I mean what's. Is he going to be have been sleeping do you think this week? Zach Crawley, Alex.

I actually saw him the day after the test match with a couple of his mates in Perth and he looked just fine. It was a game of cricket that he decided well it was didn't go his way and he was trying to relax on a day off and the.

Last thing you want to do was see you.

Yeah, no, I sort of did it under the table. I think it was very. Oh, the press are coming in. Oh no, I've got to leave. He didn't stay for very long.

He'll be fine. It will not change Zach Rulers whether or not he gets runs or not again. We'll wait and see, he won't change his approach, England won't change their approach. That might be baffling, infuriating to those watching on, but actually England have a plan. And sometimes the thing that you want your team to do or a team to do is to see the plan through. The worst thing for England to do now would be to rip everything up because they, they had an aberration of a Saturday afternoon.

They're not sending their players to Canberra for a pink ball warm up game. They ain't changing the buying order.

No. So just a reminder, the second test gets underway early next Thursday morning. So in just over a week at 4am UK time, it's a day night game as we've been discussing. So playing hours take us through to 11:30 every morning. So it's a really good time to follow Ashes cricket from down under. If you are up and about having breakfast, listening to 5 Live Breakfast as well as listening to TMS. Now shortly we'll hear from Stephen Finn, part of an Ashes winning side on three occasions including the spectacular tour of 2010 11. He'll reveal exactly what it's like to play at the famed Gabba TMS at the Ashes. Well, welcome back to sweaty Brisbane where it feels like there is a storm incoming. We had one last night as we came into land, as we were saying earlier on and it's still a week until the second game of this Ashes series. But historically it's been the opening game of the Ashes that's been played in Brisbane. With Fortress Gabba providing a hostile welcome for touring sides. Australia's historical record here is pretty phenomenal. They went over 32 years without defeat at the venue in a run between 1988 and 2021. And they've only lost 10 Tests here since the first match was played in 1931. It's a vast concrete bowl with steepling stands and plenty of Queenslanders ready to offer their thoughts to visiting opponents. Well, Stephen Finn took six wickets playing as part of the England side that got a memorable draw exactly 15 years ago. A result that helped set up a 31 series win. Steven has been explaining what makes this venue just so unusual.

It's a very intense environment. Think that last day in Perth when Australia were on top. That's what it feels right, right from the very beginning. It's a big bowl of a stadium and all the noise bounces off the ceiling of it. So it's, it is a really intense environment to go and play in. It's a really place to be a really tough Place to be playing your second Test in this Ashes series, having lost the first one. But, yeah, the atmosphere is the thing that I remember the most. The first day of the ashes series in 2010, the intensity of it. And then when Andrew Strauss got out in the first over, the noise was all too much. So I was watching in the viewing gallery for that first over, heard the noise, felt the rumbles of the stadium and then thought, I'm disappearing back down to the dressing room to watch it on a TV screen because it was so intense.

Very different from Perth in the fact that it's a much older stadium. So you mentioned the intensity of the atmosphere in Perth. You've got that. And the facilities presumably not as nice either, if you're a player.

No, it's like a concrete dungeon down in the dress room with no light. And there was a time on that first day when Peter Siddall got a hat trick in 2010 and all the bowlers were lying downstairs resting. And then Cook gets out and there's a bit of a scramble for pads and then Pryor gets out and then people are climbing over each other. No one can get their pads on. You can hear the stadium shaking and rumbling above you because there was a slight delay between what was actually happening live and then the TV pictures as well. So you'd hear the roar, hear the rumble and then see it on the TV screen in the dressing room. So, yeah, there was a lot of climbing over each other to try and find boxes and thigh pads and stuff to get ready to go out and ban.

What about the people of Brisbane, the cricket fans there? They're very used to this being kind of the fortress, although it's less of a fortress now than it has been because they have lost there recently, Australia. But add to the fact that they haven't had. It wasn't the first test of the series and it's a day nighter as well, so extra time to warm up, as it were, beforehand.

I think they'll be warm by the time that first pool is bottled. Yeah, I remember as well in the journey to the ground, you come in minibuses, so there'd be an early bus for the coaches to go and set everything up and then the team bus would come afterwards, but people were already there lining up on the streets and that'll be even more so given this is an afternoon start. But there were people banging on the bus windows because you have to wait in like a holding pattern to be let into the stadium, to drive underneath and then to drive around the concourse. So, yeah, waiting there, waiting to go into the stadium. You've got people coming up to the bus, banging on the windows, corkscrew hats. Everything that stereotypically you would imagine is going to happen did happen to us whilst we were there. And yeah, they enjoy winning in Brisbane. They have lost a few times, haven't they, recently. But historically it's a very tough place to go and play in.

And when you're out on the field, when you're pacing out your run up and you're about to come into bowl, or when you're fielding down on the boundary, what sort of messages are you getting from the locals?

Well, it's not all that kind, to be honest with you. And especially in that game because we spent so much of it behind the eight ball. They enjoy being in that situation, clearly. But you have your methods and your processes when you're out there in the middle to be able to try and block that out. And that's one of the crucial things that you have to do as a player is that you're aware of all the noise and you accept that it's there. But actually having a method to be able to deal with it and park it and concentrate on what you're going to do is something that sets the really good players apart from the others. So the players will be aware of what they're walking into. I think the players who have played there before will also be reminding the ones who haven't of what it could be like. And Australia in this test match are going to start on the front foot given what happened at Perth as well. So there's a lot for England to be wary about, but also an opportunity to turn the Australians back on themselves.

It's a pink ball test, it's under lights. Does that add a layer of unpredictability? We're used to playing seeing pink ball tests at Adelaide, but in Brisbane, how different will that be, do you think?

Well, I think it could be a bit spicy. From what I remember of bowling at Brisbane, it's very much that trampoline tennis ball type bounce that you get there. So think of the players driving outside off stump in this last test match. That is something again that the bowlers will look to target because of the amount of bounce and then add that, add to that the pink ball and the fact that it does zip around, especially in that twilight period. There are going to be really tricky and challenging moments within this game for the batters if they are in at that time. So, yeah, the one thing is the Bounce and the way that it carries through to the wicket keeper at the Gabba will be very similar to what the players experienced at the Perth Stadium.

We know that Mitchell Stark is a pink ball specialist and he's got a better record than anybody with a pink ball. Do England have the bowlers that could also take advantage of those conditions?

Well, absolutely. I thought in the first innings in Perth, it was the best and most sustained fast bowling that I've seen from an England attack that I can remember all five of them. Each time one got removed from the attack, the other one came in and picked up. And I think that was a really positive sign for England in this game, was how they did rattle the Aussies in that first innings. And I think that that is possible again throughout this series. But certainly, learning to deal with those conditions and finding that length is going to be the most important thing for the bowlers in this Test match.

Chance for England to level it up?

Absolutely. It's a chance, it's an opportunity. But when I was looking at the series removed from it, so before the five Test matches had been played, I saw this as England's greatest challenge. I thought this pink ball test at the Gabba with Mitchell Stark and the movement and the bounce, I thought that this would be the hardest Test match for them out of the five. But within that, I think if the bowlers can hit their straps, as they did do in that first innings, and if they're given enough rest by the batters to be able to back it up and bowl at those same paces again, I do think that England could cause an upset.

Well, that was Stephen Finn on the peculiar magic, if you can call it that, of the Gabba here in Brisbane. There is something about the gabber, isn't there, Alex? It just. Just has an aura about it.

I think it's because Australia is so dominant here, and you walk in and you're like, oh, here we go again. What's gonna happen today? And I think Australia come in, they have so much confidence, and rightly so. But the fans seem different here, don't they? You know, sort of when you watch football and you see the. The fans, you shouting at the ref and the players, it almost feels like that's the Gabba and that's what. And cricket fans, they all sit together, they all enjoy it, and it's a jolly good and it's a great day out with your family and friends at the Gabba. It feels a little bit more brutal than that.

You don't kind of get those champagne Corks popping in the way that you get at some grounds in England. Do you step. But on the other hand, actually it hasn't quite been so much of a fortress in the last five years or so.

I think the thing that I think about when I. When you hear of the Gabba, you know, when you're growing up and there's that mystique of an Ashes tour in Australia and you start hearing about these places, the wacker, the Gabba, they sound made up, don't they? They could possibly play a test match there and it sounds brutal in your ear. The Gabba, what a place to go and play. Not like the very genteel Adelaide Oval or Sydney Cricket Ground or whatever. And it.

We should name.

Sure. We should probably explain why it's called the Gabba. It's so it's named out. It's the Woollen Gabba ground, isn't it?

That's right. Because the part of Brisbane that it's in. So that's what it's. It shortened to. And I do think it is the most intimidating ground in Australia. Not just because of Australia's record there. I think it would have been competing with the Wacker until the wacker was stopped being used for men's test matches. It's. It's now the one that is going to be refurbished. Last ball knocked down. Actually we think after the 2032 Olympics it's the penultimate men's test match England will play at this ground. They'll probably be glad to see the back of it. But yeah, they haven't actually Australia, they haven't done quite as well there recently. The only day night test match Australia have ever lost was at this ground. Famous game against the West Indies 18 months ago. I don't know how much comfort that is. England haven't won there since 1986. I'm 40 now. They would have won there before my first birthday. I can't remember it happening.

So I definitely can't.

Yeah, you can't. You're younger than me. So yeah, look for England to pull this off at that venue in the pink ball conditions, Australia have won 13 out of 14. England have only ever won two out of seven pink ball matches and three of those five defeats have come in Australia. And against Mitchell Stark, 10 wickets in Perth. Best pink ball bowler in the world. If they do pull this off, it would go down as an incredible victory.

Well, Mitchell Stark said, didn't he? Was it day one or match day minus one that well cricket. Australia haven't listened to the players we want to start in the Gabba. At the start of the gabba. However they've started in Perth, they've won. That means they wanted to start at the Gabba because they are dominant and they get so much confidence here. Well, they've already, they're already 1 nil up. So they'll take even more confidence coming to Brisbane now as well.

Why is Mitchell Stark so difficult to. To play against with a pink ball?

You're asking questions I cannot answer. Ellie. Honestly, he's, he, he's just the goat at pink ball bowling, isn't he? And he, he's. That's way above my pay grade. Be it a, a little left arm spin, a loop volley, some loopy spin. Look, he's great. It gets to see him, to talk. But when, when you watch or you watch pink ball cricket and you watch the ball under lights, you can't see the seam. So when the lights come on and it's dusk, you can't see the seam. So you don't know which way the seam's pointing. See when the ball's coming down and he's bowling his wobble balls, you can't really see it. It's like all the lights like reflect off the ball. It's like hollow holding a highlighter. That should be the case for every bowler, but in particular, Mitchell Stark, he just has something special.

I mean, you don't know what it's like to face Mitchell, start with a pink ball under lights either. Stefan. But, but what, what do you, what do you think? I mean, from, you know, because we're all guessing, aren't we? Because very few of us, fortunately in.

Our, in our team, I exclusively reveal that we have set off a well qualified man to answer this question. And you can read Stephen Finn's question column on why Mitchell Stark is so good with the pink ball. We'll be publishing that next week. One of the things that we found while researching it is there's always a lot of talk isn't about the pink ball moving around more and those sorts of things and it doesn't actually misbehave in the air a great deal more than the Red Bull. No, the problem is, like Al says, being able to see it and under. Just when the light starts, starts to change, dusk, the floodlights take off hold. It's incredibly difficult to see the pink ball. And we found that Mitchell Stark actually bowls faster in pink ball test matches than he does in red ball games. And we've got no idea why. We don't know if it's he might just not be a morning person for all we know. Or it could be one of those things that everyone says do you know what? You're a brilliant pink ball bowler. He thinks he's brilliant with the pink ball and it's a self fulfilling prophecy that he just keeps knocking back and.

The batters think he's brilliant with a pink ball as well. And so you've got that in your ahead.

Exactly, exactly. And I remember the ECB doing a bit of research on the, the red ball compared to the pink ball and how much it swings but it's the perception of the swing that gets people and, and like you say Stefan, if Mitchell Stark has the confidence of being this world's best, this world class pink ball bowler that is going to make you run in with your chest pumped and you know you want to get it down there and prove everybody right.

And as Vinnie was saying there, England have got the bowlers potentially to, to do similar things.

Well, exactly. And I think what we're talking about with Mitchell start bowling faster with the pink ball it was getting his pace up above 87 miles an hour. That is what's considered as to be extreme pace. But we know that England have got four, probably five bowlers who are capable of doing that. The, the interesting thing is going to be timings around this game and if you can have ball in hand at the right time. If you can think the last two times England have been to Adelaide in Ash's tests I think they've won the toss and chosen to bowl and got it wrong. And Joe Root has criticized his fast bowlers, their lengths. It was a bit of a rinse and repeat when actually the thing to do in a pink ball test bat first and hopefully bat until the second day when the floodlights are just coming on then I don't know if you remember the, the last time England played a day night test in Mount Manganui against New Zealand they batted first and declared before the end of day one so they could bow under line.

I was about to say don't put it past Ben Stokes and his team to declare on day one.

But, but isn't this a danger of overthinking massively? And this is what, what England fell victim to four years ago was that that they held back Anderson and Broad from the first test in Brisbane because they had in their mind that they. The pink ball test in Adelaide was when Anderson particularly would be most effective. And it entirely depends on the timing on winning the toss. So you've only got a 50, 50 chance of it being in your control and then everything falling into place for that very, very specific time of day.

Also, that Adelaide pitch was as flat as this table. It will be different at the gabba. There will be more pace and bounce in the pitch, so the bowler should get a little bit more encouragement. But you're right, Ellie, about not overthinking it. It is still a game of cricket. You still, if it's a good pitch, bat first, get your runs on the board and then you might have the luxury of thinking about when you want to have a bowl. But don't necessarily think about.

You've only got two sessions.

Exactly. Don't think about the second interval on day two when you haven't yet faced a ball on day one.

I don't want people to think that we're obsessed with the local media here.

But the local newspapers kind of am, though, Ellie.

Well, the local newspapers are fascinating, aren't they? Because they're so different in every city you go into, you know, they've got to make sure that they can get the people picking them up, buying them, looking at them. And the Courier Mail, as I said, is one of the most notorious over the years. This picture, there's a picture of Ben Stokes, who is on page three. And it seems to be a nice picture of Ben Stokes signing an autograph. And the headline doesn't quite say, england players are very nice to fans. Line up, sign autographs and take selfies and do it with. With in good spirits despite the long flight from Perth. I mean, are they losing their touch? The Courier Mail?

Do you think they're being nice? They're being nice. England can't take a break. What's going on? Yeah, maybe they're trying to kill us with kindness, though.

Well, maybe they are. Maybe this is the double thing. It does actually point out that they're planning on going up to Noosa for a holiday after this. That's the thing that they're maybe trying to hint at again, this idea that this England team up are part timers, really, that they don't take it seriously enough.

The thing I love about the newspaper coverage, we saw it with the West Australian last week, is these papers, they are local papers. And so when the Ashes bandwagon rolls into town, it is their moment in the sun. And particularly for the West Australia. Now, the Courier Mail, the. The build up to these test matches is so long, so they've got a week to go before the Test. The Courier Mail have got plenty of time to turn up the heat on the England team. And you're right, they are off on a little holiday after this second Test and I can already hear people shouting at the radio. What do you mean they're going on holiday in the middle of a night?

There's so much time between them.

There is so much time. But are they going to earn their holiday? Oh, that's what we're going to find out.

Even if it's over in two days, they can have a break.

This is the thing, isn't it, because the Australian players have gone home to their families. You know, Pat C has been posting lovely pictures of him with his beautiful family on the farm in Sydney. So, you know, so when you're on tour, it's a very, very different thing from being at home. You know, going home and licking your wounds and watching a few episodes of Escape to the country is not an option.

Well, our boss Adam's over there. We can ask him if we can. We can all duck off after the. After the second Test. Yeah, Nice big holiday. Where could we get to?

He's taking his head. So just. And a word on the fans on that first day. I'm going to say we've got another week to build up to that point. But the fans who will have, you know, because this will be ramped up in the papers Wednesday for the next week. Will they be getting it in the neck from ball one, would you say?

Look, they'll be getting it before ball one, won't they? You know, they'll be all around town, Australians, if they. I walked into a bar with Stuart Broad the other day and the whole bar turned and booed and we're shouting at.

To you.

Yeah, yeah. I was actually with him and Stephen Finn, so I was like, I was really under the radar. It's great. No one knows who I am anyway. But, yeah, the whole, like. I've never seen anything like it. The whole place erupted. The whole place booed. It turned to the point where Alistair Cook and Stuart probably like, I think we're gonna have to leave. Anyway, we hid in the corner and it was just fine. So if those blokes are getting it, the England team are going to be getting it.

They're all historians, these Australian cricket fans as well. Let's not forget that, because they don't forget things like not walking. Anyway, Stefan, Alex, thank you very much indeed. A reminder that every ball of the Men's Ashes is available to listen to on BBC Sounds and 5 Sports Extra with a Gabba test starting at 4am on December 4, so that's in a week's time, every night of the game, however long that may be. Alex will be hosting the Ashes Daily Debrief on the iplayer, where you'll also find match highlights. Highlights. And right throughout this series, there'll be a new Test match special podcast every single day from a hot and sweaty Brisbane. With the clouds gathering overhead and rumbles of thunder in the background, it's goodbye for now. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds welcome to Tail Enders. I'm Greg James. He's Felix White. Hello. And that is England's greatest ever bowler, Jimmy Anderson.

Hello.

We finally got our break on BBC iPlay.

It's lovely to be here. England haven't won a test match in Australia since the 20102011 series, which is.

A long time ago.

Give us a few reasons as to.

Why it's so difficult.

The wickets are different, the ball's different, and the heat as well. The media coverage over there is so much bigger than a Test series in England, for example. And cricket over there is huge. Plus Australia are amazing in their own country.

Tail Enders Watch on iPlayer Listen on BBC Sounds at the BBC we go further so you see clearer. Through frontline reporting, global stories and local insights, we bring you closer to the world's news as it happens. And it starts with a subscription to BBC.com giving you unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts. The BBC News Channel streaming live 24. Seven plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries. Subscribe to trusted independent journalism and storytelling from the BBC. Find out more@BBC.com join.