The Ashes: England show fight, but on brink of defeat

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Bow Stokes coming forward. Lovely bowling from Lyon. Lands that on a roundabout. Well, middle stuff, but it's turned past the outside edge, it's clipped the top of off. Stokes himself acknowledges it, gives a little nod and says, well, don't know what I could have done about that.

So Australia are closing in. They need four more wickets to retain the Ashes. England resisted on the fourth day, but too much damage was done earlier in the match for them to recover 207 for 6 at the close of play. They need a further 228 more to win the game. Set. 435 to win. After Australia were bowled out for 349, they lost the last six wickets for 38 in 65 balls. England had a couple of overs before lunch. They lost Duckett and Australia just chipped away. Crawley made a fine 85. Route 39, Brook 30. But Nathan Lyon, as we thought he would do, had an impact on this fourth day. Picked up three quick wickets. He's taken three for 64 from 18 overs and he's now on 567. Test match wickets. Glenn McGrey is here. Phil Tufnell is here. Jonathan Agnew is here. Well, what are your initial thoughts on that day's play, Jonathan?

Well, funnily enough, England had quite a reasonable day, but the damage had been done, hadn't it? 168 for 8 in their first innings and replied to 371. And really that was, you know, that was the telling moment, wasn't it? I know that they got that lead down to 85, but the Australia's battered them out of the game. Excellent. 170 from head. But you know, today, all we've been asking throughout this series and before it, by the way, you know, you can pinpoint games in the last 18 months that have been lost when they really shouldn't have been. Is this for more just basic cricket to be played. And, and they played it today. They played in, in, in some ways an Excellent game. 6 for 38. Plan A was rigidly stuck to pitch the ball up round about the off stump. You take wickets. Oh, we have them. We're taking six for 38 now. They were sort of pushing on a bit Australia, I suppose at that stage you can look at one or two wickets. But even so they bowled sensibly. There wasn't the silly fields that. That was all they could ask for really. Ducket is disappointing. He's had a porse poor series so far, is averaging about 16, I think with the bat. Pope as, as what happens when you're struggling, you fall to a brilliant catch. And that was a brilliant catch, not a great shot, mind you. It was still edged into the slips, but it was, it was brilliantly taken. And on, on many other days that that wouldn't have happened. But I just thought today they all tried to play sensibly. People will look at Harry Brooks dismissal and go, oh, look. Oh, crikey, bowl playing the reverse sweep. Yeah, I get that. But actually they had played the reverse sweep quite deliberately and played it well against Lyon to stop him from just bowling at them all the time with close fielders. The ball seemed popping up and spinning a bit. There's some bounce. It's actually a totally legitimate tactic. The problem with the reverse sweep, and I'm no bouncer and I never even tried to play it. But the problem is it does have to be a premeditated shot and most of the time that offspin is going to be bowling outside the off stump. You can play that reverse sweep down into that offside deep areas and he can play it with impunity. Problem with that ball was that it was straight. Didn't really spin very much, but pitched around about middle and off and hit middle and leg and therefore you're in a bad position and if you miss it, you're gone. So that will look horrible in the highlights. I, I don't think it's necessarily a fair reflection of how England batted today. I think they did. They batted well. That was. Well, it was, it was a shot that didn't come off. But we understand, understand why he played it and we have been as critical of Rook in this series. As anybody. But I'm not going to really criticize that shot because under the circumstances, that that was an. An okay shot to attempt, at least if he just didn't play it tougher.

As next spinner, how did you see it?

Well, no, yeah, just pick it up on too. The word that both of you said, they damage. When England do damage, it's catastrophic, isn't it? You know what I mean? Travis Head gets 160. We lose four wickets in clusters. It's not just, you know, a couple of wickets and then you rebuild or, you know, okay, we've had a bad half an hour, bad hour spell with the ball. We'll drag it back and get the run rate back again. The damage just seems to be. You can't come back from it. And that's why, as John said, there you have these little passes of play. We did quite well today. Oh, lovely. Oh, we've got ourselves back in the game. No, because there has been masses of explosions before. Rad. You just can't play Test cricket like that and try to clutch your way back into it. It's gone. It's too far ahead, you know, chasing 440 or something, you know what I mean? It's not going to happen, you know, so that's the thing. But as a spin bowler, beautiful bit of spin bowling. Lovely. Listen, you got worked around a little bit and the guy five and over.

For a while, not letting him bowl and just bowl him in a controlled way.

Well, he had a couple of spells. He was taking off and that's what you do. You try and get rid of the spinner, you know, don't let him settle. But then the class of the fella, all those wickets, you know, you stick, you don't panic, you put your field around, you just think, well, hold on a minute, you know, I'm going to use my art and my craft and, you know, you'll have to play pretty well to keep doing that. And then you get that Harry Brook wicket, then Ben Stokes, not a great starter against spin. You get a ball like that, well, crikey, o', Riley, it's a good ball, isn't it?

Yeah.

So you're all over. You're all over them, you know what I mean? And that's when the spinner comes in and your men round about, wa, wa, wa. Everyone's jumping and jabbering and everything. You know, it's tricky.

Glenn, as someone who didn't get as many Test wickets as Nathan Lyon.

Oh, that's so Glenn, I'm not having that.

I know I, I didn't get to play quite as many games, but how.

How did you, how did you see the, the Nathan Lyon spell?

Yeah, no, it was. No, he, he was always have. Going to have a big impact here and I thought the way Zack Crawley and Harry Brook played him, they played him well, but like you said, the damage had been done, you know, knock him over for. For nothing today. Six wickets, but 435, the biggest, you know, world record here by, you know, over 100 runs and world record of all time, Chase. So you're up against it and you just have to hang in there. And yeah, once that one stuck through Harry Brook, then Ben Stokes got a really good one that turned, you know, it showed probably a foot and a half by the time it hit the top of off stump. And you know, Zach Crowley, I thought, batted really well and just deceived in flight, just brought him forward. Nathan Lyon. So Lyon showed what he could do, but Crawley and Brook didn't let him settle. And then once he got that breakthrough, it was. He was all over him. So, yeah, you know, it's. But you're up against it, chasing 435. Australia can just keep hanging. They pick up one here, they build another partnership, keep chip it away, get one there. And so Australia were always pretty much.

On top and it was a lovely little bowling bit of bowling to Crawley. I was on next door actually, and.

I said, and I was on abc.

Yeah, and I was just commentating and I said, oh, they left that lovely big gap open, didn't they? Mid off all the way around to a backward point. So it's all the, all that green space for Crawley as he's getting to 100. And I said, oh, he's looking just a bowl a little bit fuller and a little bit wider. Just so he's starting to think to himself, well, all I've got to do is just, you know, get myself forward and just time it. I get myself another little four there, you know, and get myself into the 90s. And your mind starts perhaps rushing forward a little bit. Lovely bit of bowling.

Just toss it up.

Yeah, just tossed it up a little bit and you just got the drag. I mean, that's the class and the quality of the bowling.

Is that what you were thinking when you were in the 80s and 90s?

Well, no, it was what, it was what I was thinking when I was bowling. Yeah. And I usually had 80 or 90 runs against me, but no, see, I love seeing that, you know, and that. And that is that, that's why we all love cricket. You know what I mean?

It is frustrating as we make. We keep saying the same point in that if England in this match generally have tried to play in the traditional way and actually, I know they're going to lose it, but there have been moments where you think, well, why, why can't they just play like this more often? Why haven't they played like this in this series? Why is everything got to be crash bang, wallet? Why are they trying to rewrite the way that you play Test cricket? It's it, it stands there. And Australia giving them an object lesson in, in how you play Test cricket. It hasn't changed. Yes, Travit Heads. Travis Heads is a positive player as we, as we've seen. But England just tried to seem to have pushed everything beyond the limit. They pushed the batting beyond the limit, they pushed the bowling beyond the limit, they pushed the, the field placings beyond common sense. Plan A is just being discarded far too often and especially when new batsmen have come in. They just, I think they're just paying, paying the price for just trying to be too clever. They've tried something that is not, that is not possible to achieve.

Yeah, when you, when you think about great teams, great teams don't play one way. No, they, they know how to play in their own conditions. Brilliant. But when you travel overseas, when you go to different, different conditions, you've got to adapt. And the great teams adapt and can find ways to score runs, take wickets. And that's sort of where the England team are at the moment. They're in that they, they play their way and now they're, I think they're now trying to adapt. This series is gone, but yeah, it's a big learning experience. How they bounce back in the next two test matches is going to be. Define them a quote, quite a bit.

I think we've got, I think we've got a player. We've got a player that's going to be interviewed today, I think. I think Zack Crawley is coming out events.

Actually.

There's a bit of good news to spread. We haven't actually heard him from him yet, but the first. It's not going to be the bus driver. I think it's going to be Zach Crawley who's going to come out and talk about the day's play.

Fair enough.

He played well today, beautifully.

What was he, one run off of 30 balls or something?

He got 85 or 151. He does look comfortable playing that way.

Composed, good tempo. When the ball Was there. He put it away when it was full, when it was short, put it away. But in. In between, he just kept no great.

Big booming drives on the up. It was just really.

Well, tempo is the word. And. And our tempo has been too much of a gallop. You know, you're not going to win the Grand National.

Impatience, Impatient.

If you start off, you know, on.

The sprinting in the marathon.

Absolutely.

Just on Zack Crawley, though. Look, he played really well and he. He got himself in, but he got out in the, you know, 70s, 80s again. Yeah, that. That doesn't actually get you very far, ultimately, does it? That sounds ultra critical, but.

Ultra critical. That is a good bit of bowling by one of the world's best spin bowlers. On a pitch that's spinning, wearing a bit. Yeah. And turning and bouncing a little bit.

So that's just part of the game. Can't say he's out in the 80s again.

That's especially because you've just lost Brooklyn and Stokes. So the games changed, and all of a sudden, what do I. What. What do I do? Do I try to force it a bit more, you know, So I think it was just the state of the game and a very, very good piece of bowling. As tough as.

I'd love to know how some of these players actually do feel and if. When they're going to be liberated to speak, when they write books or whatever, how they do look back at this time themselves.

Well, because they want to play in a different way, and they're encouraged to play in any one way.

You know what sort of player you are, and you know what sort of bowler you are, and you know how the tempo that suits your batting at the start of all of this. Remember how Joe Root seemed totally confused, didn't he, Playing reverse ramps and all sorts of things. Come on. Now he's settled into just playing his own way again because he's such a good player that he's able to. But you just wonder, someone like Zach Crawley, who just looks so good playing at this tempo, you know, if he's speaking honestly one day, would he say, well, I just felt that I had to go out there and smack it about. I didn't really want to. Now I'm putting words into his mouth. But it will be interesting, won't it, to see how the players. Because some. Some thrive playing like this. Johnny Barstow actually thrived playing in this like this, didn't he? Ben Stokes loves it. He goes out there and has a fight, but he's also gone into that ultra defensive mode when it suited him too. I just wonder those who don't have much of a loud voice. Your Brydon cast is. And these people coming and thumping the ball in halfway down, bowling bouncers, you know, how much they actually really felt. I don't really want to be doing this. I want to be playing the game that I, that I've played. In order to be picked to this level, I've asked to do something different and it'll be interesting.

Yeah, it's important to play the. What why you got picked in the first place. If you're changing a game and it's not working, your career's on the line.

You could.

You play a few games and you're not happy next year, you're out of the team and you're done. So, yeah, if you. You picked for a reason and that's. You shouldn't change.

Doggett, for instance. We watched Doggett running in and hurling down bounces in the last test match. He's a guy who pitches the ball up and swings. It's not maybe.

Yeah, it's okay.

Yeah.

Just state of the game.

But this has become consistently England tactic and it was yesterday. Not something that you can practice necessarily. Anyway, that's. That's just a thought. I'll be interested to speak to some people later on.

Yeah, I think we all would. You want to know kind of what they're really thinking because they've been so.

So had to stick to the script and some of the nonsense that Duckett spoke in India, you know. Oh, bring it on. We'll chase whatever we like. Really, you know, is that just because he feels that he has to say that, he can't possibly say anything that's slightly, slightly negative.

That's okay to talk it up, but.

Not when it's done.

You've got to go out and do it. Okay, look, we are going to hear from a player. We've had coaches for the first three days of this test match. Jack Crawley is with Henry Moran.

A day where England fans were calling for some defiance and your side showed.

That, yeah, we're never going to give up. But it's always going to be tricky, you know, poor feelings at Adelaide with the quality of their bowling attack and yeah, we tried our whole time but it wasn't enough again. But yeah, it's disappointing at the moment.

Your own performance today, how did you approach it mentality wise with such a big target?

We're talking about this a lot. I think we've been successful chasing as we play like the first innings, I just tried to see ball and hit ball like it was the first innings. We spoke about that before and, you know, try to take the scoreboard out of it. That's what we always try and do. And, yeah, I was pleased with how I played. Obviously, it's still fresh. I only got out half an hour ago. I'm still pretty, pretty upset about it. But, yeah, no, I was pleased with how I played in total because days.

Like this, series like this, are difficult to keep your head up, keep your game in the shape that you want it to be. How have you done that yourself, to play in innings? That is one of positivity today.

We're never going to give up. Every time you bat, it's an opportunity against the top opposition in their home country. So we all saw it as a great opportunity to try and do something special. Obviously, they bowed well and we're up against it now, but we were never going to give up.

Realistically, the Ashes have gone, barring something very unusual. How is that dressing room?

We came here to win the Ashes and it looks like the boys are going to give it a good crack tomorrow. We won't give it to them, but we're probably up against it. So, yeah, it's flat, but at this point we haven't quite performed how we wanted to. And fair play to Australia, they've been quality throughout.

Has it surprised you, the level of performance that Australia provided? Particularly given that some of their bowling attack coming back into the squad, some missing?

No, I hadn't surprised, to be honest. I know how good they are in their own country. They're a very good side in these conditions and in all conditions, to be honest. They've got great players all over the place. And their bowling attack especially, I mean, I don't know how many wicketes is. It's in the thousands. I know. But, yeah, they're a top side and we have to be our best to get something out of it, and we've been probably just short of that. But there's still time for that.

Right?

And it's Ash's cricket. There's always something to play for, and that might be individual places. Ollie Pope is somebody under pressure.

Well, maybe from you guys, not from inside the camp. We all know how good a player he is and we talk about all the time, and I think he's had a really good year the last year, to be honest. He scored hundreds when we needed him to and he played some really good knocks. So, yeah, I think that's just talk from the Outside, there's no chat like that on Oli in the camp and.

Within the camp, how is morale more generally? How are you keeping the head up and who's making sure that you do?

Listen, this is the time of our lives, really. You come over here and this dream come true to play in the ashes away from home. And like I said, we wanted to win. I desperately wanted to win and to lose is disappointing, but still, you know, you can't play at grounds like this and get two down, you know, it's an amazing place to play cricket. Something like what I thought about, what we all thought about from a young age. So you come here and you try and put your best foot forward and against a good opposition, it's going to be hard, but, you know, it's a great opportunity all the time.

Those fans never stop singing. There's been real commitment from the barmy army and you feel that today you've rewarded them with the wickets in the morning session and the fight that you've shown.

Yeah, I mean, they're always unbelievable. Whether we have a bad day or good day, they always show up and cheer for us. So massive, massive thanks to them for everyone who's come out and supported us. But yeah, that's a huge reason why we'll never give up. And although it might look like at times cricket's a weird game like that, where it can sometimes look like you haven't put your best before, but that's never the case. We're always trying to heart out there and that's partly because we get such good support.

Do you feel that despite the challenges.

Of the series, you can still turn.

What is left of it into a positive for England? And what positives can still be gained from the series?

Well, yeah, we'll start with tomorrow, show some really good fight and then, you know, two very good players of the crease, but a bit dent in that total and you know, we'll never give up. And then the last two, you know, we haven't won a test here in a while, so it's a chance to win, to win those two tests and, you know, if they get it back to 3:2 and then suddenly it's a pretty good series and, you know, we were this close. Maybe you could argue in Perth and in Brisbane at times as well. We were right in it this game, you know, it was a huge toss for them to win. With the way it's spinning now, I probably swapped both tosses that we won in the first two for this toss and Stokesi probably said the same. But, yeah, we're still playing with playful always.

And just finally this pitch, you've been out there recently. I mean, how tough is it out there?

Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, with a spin like, they set good fields, don't they, and it make it hard for you to score and then, you know, they're just clever with their fields out here and they make it hard for you and they're obviously top bowlers, so it was a challenge. But if you, you know, if you have a decent plan, then it's doable.

Well played today, Zac. Thanks for your time.

Thank you.

Zach Crawley speaking to Henry moran. Crawley making 85 today before he was stumped by Kerry off Lyon out there for 151 balls, defending Ollie Pope as he inevitably will. It's a difficult one, isn't it, when your, your teammate is struggling. But Ollie Pope has struggled in this series and he has struggled against Australia and it. Although it was a great catch and that kind of obscures things in a way, he still was. It was a fidgety push at the ball. He nicked off and he was caught at slip. Is his place now, I mean, is he unselectable for the next game?

Unselectable because he's, he's a good player and he's another one who I would love to see bat without. Without the pressures of having to score quickly and another one who just like to see him just, Just play. I mean, yeah, it wasn't a great shot today. It wasn't a bad shot, it wasn't a great shot, but, you know, fantastic catch. I mean, there are two options. You know, let's see how Jamie Smith goes. You know, people talk about Ollie Pope being a. A middle order batson. Well, I mean, I'm not suggesting this is going to happen or this should happen, but an option is that he does drop down the order and keeps wicket. He is here as the reserve keeper. Smith's had a pretty miserable series, let's be honest, you know, see how he. How he bats tomorrow. But I don't think they can carry on without making a change. I think, I think we've talked before about the accountability of the batsman and there just doesn't seem to be any in this team because there's no pressure on the places. There's just nobody to come in. The only person to come in is Jacob Bethel, who knows what he can bring. Going to be a tough call for him. He hasn't had. He's had very little cricket. You know, we Know all the conversations about Jacob Bethel. We, we, we've had them before, but he's here. England are struggling with, with the bat. Ollie Pope is having a bad time. I think his, I mean, his first innings dismissal here was grotesque.

And I'm thinking of Brisbane as well. The dismissal, the second things of Brisbane.

It's just, you know, they, they, they're two really bad dismissals for number three. You know, why, why, why did he play those shots? Why did he play that shot against Nathan Lyon here? It was, it was really hard to work that out. And it, you can only assume, as Jeffrey would say, his mind scrambled, in which case you've got to go and put him away and let someone else have a go because you need, you need competition for places. And again, a big criticism of mine, of this squad. There's no competition, there's no accountability. So you get out, you play a rash shot. Okay, well, anyway, I'm playing next week. That's good news. It shouldn't be like that in a team.

Sometimes you need to take a player out, don't you?

And you need to have people breathing down your neck and you need to have somebody in form. You need to have somebody playing games between test matches who's getting into form and putting pressure on the people that are playing. That's that it's not uncomfortable. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. It's a good thing to have people and the players under pressure from others within the squad. And that's just not happening.

How do you see it, Glenn, as someone that we bowling to a player like Ollie Pope at number three? How would you try to work him out and, and get him out? Would you see him as kind of quite an easy target as a number three?

I think the way the Australians have bowled to him, they've bowled well. And you know, Pat Cummins coming back in and sort of hitting the ground, running the, the areas he bowls and he always lets the ball go and it's feels like it's angling into off stump and you always feel like you're committed to play it and then it just seems to somehow straighten and, and bring you. Bring you into sort of edging it or playing shots you don't want to.

He played a.

Missed a few off comments earlier and then drew about that edge. So, yeah, it's one of those things you look at Kawacha open innings. Yeah, I didn't think he looked comfortable there against a new ball because, you know, he's 39 now, reflex is not quite the same. He drops down to, what was it, number number four and all of a sudden he's got more time. So maybe for Pope just to drop back down the order a little bit might be just a game changer for him. All of a sudden come in, the new ball's not as hard, you know, and off you go.

Do you see Pope really as a number three now and in the future?

Not really.

Is he really a middle order player?

It depends. If you're talking sort of old school number threes, you know, number three batsman usually is somebody who could have necessarily opened the batting. In my view, somebody is that sort of a player. Sometimes they go in and the opens have put on 130 for the first wicket and you can play a bit more freely. But often if you're a new ball bowler, as Glenn knows, I mean, the odds are you're going to get one of them out with a new ball and therefore the number three is in there usually under a bit of pressure. I don't think if you look at Pope, he doesn't look like a. He's not a calming influence. Normally the number five, number six could go out there and be a bit more skittish and, you know, a bit, a bit more plays shots and stuff. So. No, I think, I think he is, if I'm honest, a middle order batsman.

Yeah, you know, it's the, the opening batsman's job is to see the, the new ball off and you're coming up against some of the world's best team. Mitchell Stark with that new ball is, is unbelievable. Three out of six innings, he's taken a wicket in the first over. So really number three is out there, may face a ball before the other opener. So that's, that's always part of the issue, you know, whether dropping down is going to help that and give them a little bit more confidence, a bit more time. Yeah, we'll wait and see. But yeah, on these, you know, especially England bowl batsman coming here, the extra bounce, yeah, it does take a little while getting used to it. And if you sort of go hard at the ball, yeah, you're going to find it tough. And someone like Ben Duckett, I thought Duckett, I was really keen to see how he's going to go over here. You can't come to Australia and not leave a ball because sooner or later one of those early ones that bounces is going to get your name on it.

Pope has been going in basically with a score on naught every time, isn't he? More or less. I mean, to be fair to him, he's not had an easy ride.

Yeah, you're not coming in at 1.

For 112, naught for 1. Most of the time he's out there, so it's not been an easy tour for him. But I do go back to that shot in the first innings here. It was pretty nasty, that, wasn't it?

Indeed. Right, let's hear from the Australia camp now. First wicket keeper Alex Carey. He's been speaking to Isha Goa.

Four wickets to fall in that final session.

I imagine you can just smell the taste of victory now.

Oh, no. We'll reflect on today and come up with plans for tomorrow. We, we know these guys are quality players right to the end and. And yeah, we want to keep working hard and probably not look too far ahead.

We saw you come down the wicket.

To have a chat to Nathan Lyon.

Ahead of the Ben Stokes wicket.

What did you say to him? Did I? No, look, I just thought Nathan was bowling really well and just continue to put lots of energy on the ball. He toiled away all day and finally got some reward and yeah, I just wanted him to bowl with as much energy as possible. There's enough out there. We saw that. And finally he got a couple of late wickets.

You must be pleased with your own contributions in this test match as well. 150 this morning and also seven dismissals.

Yeah, look, I always want to contribute to helping this team win games of cricket. Understand there's still a lot of work to do tomorrow morning. So far so good but like I said, we. Well, personally I don't look too far ahead. It's probably reflect and jump in the pool tonight and get home to the kids and, and come back tomorrow and really look forward to it. I think the, the boys are bowling great areas. We know it'll be hard work.

Again, that's Alex Cary with Isagua. We can also hear now from the bowler of the series so far, Mitchell Stark. He's been speaking with Corbin Middlemass and the ABC team.

Fantastic cricket again. I think the way that Alex and. And the King Adelaide went about it in his last innings, their partnership was phenomenal. So no great to see the two boys in the home games do phenomenally well with the bat, Kez in the first innings, backing it up in the second. Patty Fresh legs coming in, doing his thing and. And the goat he said he wanted to sink his teeth in and today he's shown why he's so good. So still some work to do but certainly, certainly A very good day.

We've seen some turn from Nathan and even Travis, but is there anything there for the quicks? Like is there any. Any movement off the seam or some keeping low?

I think it was a little bit more so with the harder, harder ball. Probably not as much with the. The older board. Are we 60 odd over 63 over ball. So I think it's just hitting that nagging length, building that pressure. Obviously Nathan from the other end doing his thing. So, yeah, I think there was. It was enough at times. It was certainly not the. Not the green nippy wicker that we've seen with a pink ball here in the. In the last few years. So, yeah, a bit of hard work for. To get your rewards, but that's des. Cricket and. And that's why. That's why we love it, isn't it?

Yeah.

And how are you going with the foot marks?

Yeah, not. Not the most enjoyable thing.

They've bowled around the wicket a lot.

And fall on the side of a few mounts, so the groundies have had their work cut out for them. But that's okay. It's.

That's.

That's what's bowling. The fourth innings is like.

It obviously ended pretty quick today for the.

The lower order.

What.

What do you put that down to as to. Was it just a. Just a bad day or were you guys just a little too eager to get out there and have a roll?

Certainly not eager to get a. Have a roll. I'm still happy to bat and score some runs.

I was not out far with the strike. Great, man.

I did it right in Brisbane.

Yeah, I know.

You were great today.

He's just not watching that pellet.

Oh, yeah.

Well, then Scotty up the chimney. But that's okay. Sometimes it happens that way. I think we've been. We've been pretty good with the lower order throughout so far. So, yeah, it can be forgiven for one hiccup, but, yeah, we're in a really good position.

So they actually look like they bowled better today.

To be fair.

They didn't bowl short and wide and.

Wasn'T cat shot, Sydney.

Yeah, yeah, I think they did. You know, they certainly learned throughout the. Throughout the game or throughout the series that fuller one's probably been more of an attacking ball, more of a. More of a danger, I think, than that short stuff. We sort of anticipate the short stuff being a lower order as well. If you're gonna dish it out, you're gonna cop it.

So.

Yeah, I mean, you're allowed to improve across the series, aren't you? So yeah, again they did bowl better and got some rewards for that, but I think we're, we're in a really good position.

They certainly are. Australia closing in four wickets away from winning the Ashes. England still well over 200 runs from victory. That was Mitchell Starr speaking to Corbyn Middlemass and the ABC team. Last but not least, Andy Zaltzman is here to look at the day statistically. Let's start with Australia. Zalts.

Well, let's look the two players they brought in for this game, Cummins and Lyon. Lyon bowled just a couple of overs in the series in the first Test, didn't play the second Test. Cummins didn't miss the first two Tests. Between them they've taken 11 wickets for 227. Cummins six for 93 in the match. Five of his wickets have been top four players, including Root in both innings for just eight runs in 23 balls. And his domination of Joe Root and Test cricket continues got him 13 times. Root averages just 22 against Australia's captain across their careers. And when you consider that his overall Test average is over 50, that highlights quite how superb Cummins has been against Root over a prolonged period of time. Now, and Lyon, we talked a lot about Jax yesterday. England played Lyon really well in his first 10 overs. He went from 49 almost five and over only a little under Jax's economy rate in this game. But that difference was the way England were doing that was with high risk shots, the reverse sweeps and the sweeps. Whereas with Jacks, Australia is just able to wait for those short balls, about one every six or seven balls short. Lyons bowled about one every 28 balls short and eventually that, that one mistake came from Brook and then Lyon pretty much sealed the Ashes. England looking at losing the ashes in the third Test for the ninth time in their last 10 tours of Australia, which is I think fair to say suboptimal. The day started with Carey and Head continuing their partnership. Head's 170 was the highest second inning score for Australia in Australia in an Ashes Test since Don Bradman scored 270 and 212 in back to back second innings in the 193637 series. And Alex Carey, they failed to get his second hundred of the match mentioned yesterday. The first keeper in Ashes history to have a century and a 50 in the same game. He ended up with the highest match aggregate for any wicket keeper in a men's Ashes Test. A little curious record. 560 of Australia's runs in this game scored by left handers which is an Australian record for a single for a single test and well for for England, less good stats. Ollie Pope who we're just talking about eight Ashes Tests 16 innings, still no 50s, no England player, no England top order batter has ever gone 16 innings at the start of a career against Australia without reaching 50 at least once. Zach Crawley batted superbly today, but once again out, having reached 70 but failing to reach 100 his last 10 scores of 70 plus. He's now been out between 70 and 85 in nine of them and the other was his century against Zimbabwe. So all in all not a huge amount for England to cling to despite a better, better performance. Harry Brook 15 innings against Australia, 10 scores of 30 plus still waiting for that first hundred, only two scores over 61. So a lot of unconverted starts that we've seen and in terms of the bowler workload mentioned at this stage yesterday, actually historically not a particularly heavy workload. 377 overs England have bowled in this series, which is the fewest they've ever bowled in the first three tests of a series in Australia.

Zoltz, comprehensive as ever, thank you very much indeed.

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Well, we can get further thoughts from a real favorite here at the Adelaide Oval. Jason Gillespie played and coached South Australia. He's also played and coached in county cricket and just over a year ago was coaching Pakistan against England. And as a former Australia fast bowler I first asked him what he made.

Of the current attack coming into this test match. Australia just added the best part of 900 Test wickets of experience, you know, in Cummins and Nathan Lyon. Look, it's a very good attack. Scott Bowen's a good replacement for Josh Hazelwood I suppose, who's unfortunately injured for this series. Mitchell Stark, he's. It just shows that you can teach an old dog new tricks. I mean in the last year, 18 months or so, he's been working really hard on his wobble seam delivery that you know, he watched a lot of. Stuart Broad, James Anderson spoke to them about it and how they go about it and you know, you learn from your opposition, you learn from the best and he's been working hard at developing that because he feels that that wobble seam going across, he brings a keeper and the slips into play and he thinks that he believes it makes his in swinger to the right hander more of a surprise. And so he feels that it's just added another weapon to his repertoire. So you know, for a player at age 34, 35 to continually try striving to get better and improve, I think is fantastic.

There'll be people listening who say I know what mobile seam is, but there'll also be people listening who don't know what wobble seamless is. Do you want to just explain?

Yeah, so, so quite simply you watch when people watch the game and maybe on television or whatever the, the, the bowler will hold the ball with the two forefingers and thumb and, and have the seam straight down the wicket pointing towards the batsman. With the wobble seam they'll hold the ball and Mitchell Stark will hold the ball with the seam sort of angled probably towards gully. But the key to the wobble seam is to actually have your wrist and fingers stay right behind the ball and release the ball off your middle finger. And if you release that at the right time, it'll just wobble down the wicket, down the pitch and that Just creates a little bit of doubt for the batter because all you want to do is miss the middle of the bat. So if you can miss the middle of the bat, you create, potentially create chances. And that's where if it just wobbles down the, down the pitch and a batter will ask questions, if it's around that off stump, fourth stump, he'll be worried about his off stump. And so he'll then look to. Look to maybe prod at it. And we've seen him get a couple of wickets with that very delivery. Saw James Anderson and Stuart Broad do it for years and years for England. You know, utilizing that wobble scene. It's probably a little bit more pronounced in the UK with the Duke cricket ball with a slightly more pronounced scene. But what we are seeing is that it can be done in, in Australia if you, if you practice it.

And how long do you have to practice it for to perfect it?

Do you think, oh, look it bowls will improve and get it right at different, different rates. But Mitchell Stark said he's been working on it over a period of time and it's just about, it's practice. I mean, I've always said you don't get better by doing less. So the more you practice it, you get better and master a skill. And yeah, he's certainly done that really effectively.

Which actually could just flip us on to England's preparation for this tour. What have you made it as a coach because you've coached a lot of teams. Is this the sort of preparation England had for this tour? Not necessarily thinking about this Test match because they had that break. And I think most people would accept, or some people would accept that actually it's okay to have a bit of a break from cricket because it's so intense. What about the actual preparation?

Yeah, I mean, first of all, yeah, I absolutely no problem with the England side having a break. I think it's all the, the messaging that's been coming out the narrative and I think where a little bit of criticism has come in. Simon and you and I were at that PM's 11, that pink ball game. They, they chose not to have the, the batters go down there and not many of the players. I know Josh Tung and Matthew Paul Potts played, Jacob Bethel played that. But they had an opportunity to have more players play that and that's where I think the criticism came from. And you know, the, the noise out of the England camp was, oh, well, the conditions are completely different. It's, yes, it's day night, but it's a lot cooler in Canberra with the less bounce. And so it's not going to be the same as, as the Gabba. And where I think that doesn't stand up to scrutiny is because before the Perth Stadium match they played a two day game at a suburban ground in Perth that was a low slow wicket, so that preparation was fine. Leading into a fast, bouncy Perth Stadium surface. So what was different? And I think they missed a trick, to be honest, by not playing that game. Personally, with preparation, I'm. I am a bit old school, maybe I'm a. Has been. But I think match practice is vital. I understand. I suppose a lot of people are saying that the modern game, there's more tournaments, there's less time and it's harder to fit practice matches in. I think if you're planning two, three years out for a tour, you make sure you get these practice games in. And I've always said if they're. Rather than them being. If they're not, if they don't have first class status, then it, it's hard to recreate the intensity of a first class game.

What about England in general and their approach? You know, there's a lot of discussion about basball. Actually it's kind of been written off now. Basball is dead. And England have actually played in a very different way in this game, haven't they?

Yeah, they've certainly applauded themselves. Well, look, the way they've gone about it, I think starts with selection. I suppose what England are doing is selecting on attributes as opposed to rewarding performances at the lower level. I've got no problem. If you identify attributes that you think can succeed at test level and succeed on a tour, that's fine, but not at the expense of the lower level. You know, it's almost, it looks from an outsider, it's almost as if county cricket doesn't matter. And having been involved in the county system, it does matter and it matters to a lot of people. And it's a. You know, it seems from the outside that the ECB don't necessarily care about county cricket. But I think it's a very good tournament and particularly obviously in Division one. There's been some. Over the years, there's been some excellent cricket played at a very high standard and I think ECB should celebrate what a great tournament the county Championship is rather than. It just seems it's a bit unloved and I think there's really good cricket and you've got to find that balance between rewarding the attributes you think can succeed at the next level and rewarding performance because, you know, players get told you keep scoring runs, you take wickets, you know, bang the door down, demand selection, but through performance. But it seems at the moment that you could score thousands of runs in county cricket, but unless you don't fit a certain type of player that the England hierarchy are looking for, you're no chance of playing. And I'm not sure that's a message you want to send out to your first class players in your, in your, in your country.

When you were coach of Pakistan, you know, 14, 15 months ago. I'm not, I'm not, I don't want to actually go into the politics of Pakistan. When you looked at England there when you were coaching against them, did you think that actually, I know they scored 800 in the first Test match, which is unbelievable, bizarre really occurrence. But you, you had a strategy, didn't you? You kind of like, you kind of in a way sort of act fox and said, right, the pitches, we're just going to make them spin. And they had those big blowers out and they brought the spinners in.

Did you think?

Actually that's, look, we, this is the way to go. We got to, we got to lure them in in a different way because they, because they do have those vulnerabilities.

Well, England quite one dimensional and that's what we, we talked about. We felt that if it was a benign surface that didn't offer anything for the seamers or didn't offer anything for the spinners, that plays into England's hands. It plays into their style of play where they come out and be very aggressive. You've this whole thing and you can call it basball, you call it whatever. I've found it fascinating watching England. Obviously they want to go out and be aggressive with the bat and entertain, but with the ball, they're the complete opposite. I think they're the most negative bowling side in world cricket and negative fuel placings. They, they move away from tried and tested, top of off stump, fourth stump line plans and they pivot to, they change plans constantly. They go to bouncer plans really quickly. Now I don't know if that's led by the captain and coach or is it led by the bowlers. But what we've seen in this Test series so far is that line and length discipline, good Test bowling can succeed and it can succeed in all conditions. And I just think England are very impatient. I get it, you want to try and move the game forward and that. But I remember we played test in Pakistan and Saud Shaquille got 100 on a spinning surface. There were six fielders on the fence the whole time. I remember him coming off the field and saying, coach, they've got all the field out. What do I do? I said, what are you doing now? He said, I'm just hitting singles. I said, well, just keep hitting singles. And there was no change of that plan because they just, it was almost like England just assumed we would play like they play and start slogging and try and hit it over the field. And I think Saud hit something like 70 singles in his hundred, which was, which was crazy. And there was no change in, no change in that. Just, it was just an assumption. Oh, Pakistan will just start slogging eventually and, and get out.

Well, that was Jason Gillespie. Highlights are available to watch on the BBC Sport website and app. Alex Hartley presents the TMS Ash's Debrief on the BBC iPlayer. And we're back on air from 11pm for the fifth and final day.

Here, the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

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