The Ashes: Khawaja calls it a day and calls out "racial stereotyping"

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Hello from the Sydney Cricket Ground. Welcome to the Test Match special podcast. This is Henry Moran, two days out from the start of the final match of this Men's Ashes series. And we've got news of a retirement. Usman Khawaja calling time on a career that has seen 88 Test appearances. And he's had plenty to say both about life as a cricketer and experiences off the field during a passionate press conference. We'll be hearing from him and hearing from Zack Crawley over the course of this episode of the TMS podcast. TMS at the Ashes. Well, early on this morning, Usman Khawaja walked out in front of the media in the bowels of the Sydney Cricket Ground with his family present. And once you know that the family are with him, it was pretty clear that the announcement that we were going to hear was that he would be calling time on his career. Perhaps what we weren't expecting was as well as stories of his journey into the game. A passionate message about his experiences that have been far from positive during his time as an Australian cricketer. And not just in the early days either, but far more recently than that. He spoke at length across the press conference in including this passionate answer.

Let's just strip it all the way back. I've always felt a little bit different. Even to now. I am. I'm a colour cricketer. And, you know, Australian cricket team is, in my opinion, the greatest national. That's our best team, it's our national, it's our pride and joy. But I've also felt very different in a lot of respects. Different by the way I've been treated different for how things have happened. And I'll just go back, you know, something that's been on my mind probably from the start of the series that I noticed, which I thought I'd kind of gone past before. And it was when I did my back, I hurt my back. I had back spasms and it was something I couldn't control. And the way. I don't want to say you specifically, but the way the media and the past players came out and attacked me, I mean, I could have copped her for two days, but I copped her for about five days straight. And it wasn't even about my performances. It was about something very personal. It was about my preparation and the way everyone came at me about my preparation. And it was quite personal in terms of, you know, things like he's not committed to the team. You know, he was only worried about himself. He played this golf comp the day before. He's selfish. You know, he doesn't train hard enough. He didn't train the day before the game. He's lazy. These are the same stereotypes, the racial stereotypes I've grown up with my whole life. It's funny, Rachel was reading all this. She's the one who's told me that she was blowing up. I remember being in the car next to her and I was just laughing and then she got even more angry. So why are you laughing? I was like, these are the same racial stereotypes I've been handling my whole life. I just thought that media and the old players and everyone else had moved past them, but we obviously haven't fully moved past him because I've never seen anyone being treated like that in the Australian cricket team before. For the performances, yeah, but not for the uncontrollables. The way you guys went at me and, you know, that was the thing that disappointed me the most, because I thought we were past that, but there's still, there's still a little bit out there which I still have to fight every single day, which is the frustrating thing for me. You know, I can count. I can give you countless number of guys who've played golf the day before and been injured. You guys haven't said a thing. No one else said a thing. I can give you even more, probably responsive guys who've had 15 schooners the night before and then got injured. No one said a word. That's all right. They're just being Aussie larrikins, right? They're just being lads. So for me, that was the frustrating part. But when I get injured, everyone went at my credibility and who I am as a person rather than normally. When someone gets injured, you feel sorry for them, you feel a little bit of remorse. Poor Josh Hazelwood or poor Nathan Lyon, he's gotten injured. We feel really sorry for him. We don't attack what happened to him. That was the thing that's probably most sad about and that's what I've been dealing with for a long time. I don't talk about a lot, but I felt like I needed to talk about it right here, right now. And I kind of know why. You know, I get nailed a lot of the times over the last particular last two years. I understand that I've talked about certain issues outside of cricket, which leaves me exposed, which a lot of people don't like. You know, I still find it hard of when I say, you know, that everyone deserves freedom and that Palestinians deserve freedom and equal rights, why that is such a big issue. But I get it. I put myself out there. Even when we talk about Australian politics and you know, we get all these right wing politicians that are anti immigration and anti Islamophobia and I speak up against them. I know people don't love that, but I mean, I feel like I have to because where these guys are trying to divide, create hate and trying to create animosity in the Australian community, I'm doing the exact opposite. I'm trying to bring everyone together. I'm trying to bring inclusivity into Australia. I'm trying to say I'm the Australian Muslim from Pakistan and I'm an Australian cricket right in front of you who loves playing cricket, loves going out and doing everything that you do. I mean, if you talk about integrating into the country, I mean, I've got, I've got a white wife over there who I love and cherish and I've got half Australian, half Pakistani Kids. And so that is very frustrating to me at times. And I know what the older generation. I know what people say about me. You know, stay in your spot. Don't speak about topics that you don't know. You know, you're just a cricketer, do your things, whatnot. But, you know, how do you think it makes me feel when people talk about immigration or they start attacking, you know, Islam or Muslims for everything that's going on? I am an immigrant in Australia. I came here at the age of five. It's personal. It is. When you start attacking my faith and my belief system, it is personal. So I'm going to speak about that because not many athletes do. And I understand why they don't, because look what happened to me at the start of this series. I got absolutely nailed. And it wasn't that last year when the Sheffield Shield stuff happened. I was one of the few players that was playing Sheffield Shield, and you guys had a crack at me for missing a game. You had plenty of my teammates who were not playing. You didn't say a word to them. So for me, yeah, I've been dealing with this stuff a long time. And, you know, and for me, it's not. I know I'm up here talking about topics and people like, oh, okay, Uzi's. Uzi's here. He's playing the race card again. I go, yeah, yeah, he's. Don't. But don't gaslight me. Like, genuinely, I've. Brat. How many times have I helped you in the last two years when you've been absolutely nailed by security? You've been harassed by them at least four times, I reckon I've helped you. Even in Perth this year, the security was on you. I was like, please leave him alone. This stuff happens all the time. Like, you just don't see it. I don't talk about it. Rachel sees it, until we just don't talk about it. And then at the end of the day, I know people are trying to nail me and get me down, but you weren't part of my create. So you have no control of my fate. And it's only God that does that. And I respect that. So even though it hurt and it sucked, I hold no angst against anyone in this room or anyone who said anything to me. I'm a guy who just sees it, moves on, and I move past. But I felt that I had to bring this up. I didn't want to talk about this, but I. I just want the journey for the next Usman Khawaja to Be different. I want you to treat him or her all the same, not have racial stereotypes of who they might be and treat them with the same cloak that you would treat any of my wholesome other cricketers that I play with. And so for me, coming back to your question, yeah, it's been a different journey and I noticed that more than ever, particularly at the start of this series and all the stuff going on. But I'll never stop being who I am. I'm an Australian, I love cricket and I'll continue to be the person I.

Well, following that press conference early on this morning, Bharat Sundar Raison broadcaster covering the series, who was mentioned a number of times by Khawaja over the course of the hour or so that he spoke to the press. And also Melinda Farrell who's covering this Ashes series for the Cricketer magazine, Barat. He's somebody that has always been happy to speak his mind. Usman Khawaja. And it really did feel like the handbrake was off and he said some very powerful things and I think the.

Timing of it as well. Henry, I just bumped into him around 15 minutes ago, so like an hour after the press conference and we both agreed that this was his last chance to be so open and candid about his views. Not just on cricket, actually very less so on cricket, but more about Australia as a country and not just living here, but being part of what is still such a white dominated sport. Because, you know, in five days time or six days time, whenever this Test ends, he's no longer a current cricketer. I mean, he'll be in the commentary box. He'll still have a voice, but the voice is so much more powerful when you're still playing for Australia. So I, I was very, very happy that he, he had his say and he was always going to have his say. I didn't expect it to go, but yeah, I mean it's been, it's been kind of simmering under the surface for a while now. All these thoughts that he, that he put out today. So there we are. Osman Khawaja. He's always divided opinions as a cricketer and I'm sure what he said today will divide opinions around the country.

Mel, is that fair? Do you think that there'll be some that say stick to cricket? It's always the phrase, keep politics out of sport.

Absolutely, of course they will. That's what has happened every time Usman Khawaja has spoken about pretty much anything and I find it quite interesting. You know, we know what has happened in England and Scotland and, you know, other countries where the idea or the experiences of racism and the difficulties of being different within the sport of cricket has caused a real, really introspective period in some ways. You know, it's. It's sort of. Or harmed relationships. It's gone a lot further. Whereas every time Usman Khawaja has spoken here in Australia, first time I remember him really talking about it was in an article he wrote for a website maybe about 10 years ago. And the stuff that he detailed in that was pretty shocking. It was the sort of stuff that you were hearing in Parliament in England and people were very upset about it, but it kind of just passed by here in Australia and everything sort of kept going. And each time it's come up, I mean, Bharat here has written about the racism he's experienced at grounds and still has, which is, you know, security guards not letting him in because, you know, it's a very colorful and handsome man. But so I think there will be definitely. And not just. Not just people. I mean, the people you really targeted or took aim at with the media and former players. And it was clear from how upset he was, you could see him holding it all in, that he feels that he has been attacked by the media, by former players, and there will be elements of the media in this country that will take aim at him again when that story hits the papers tomorrow. Guarantee it.

Absolutely. And think the. The big difference I've realized as a. As a person who now calls Australia home, proud Australian, South Australian, is that with countries like the UK and other parts of the world, it seems like there's a longer history of whether it's migration or immigration or race issues. Whereas in Australia, and especially if you just single out cricket as a sport. It's funny, Usman Khawaja kind of apologized to me for bringing me up during his press conference, but I got it because there were two Brown people there, him and me, and I guess we're both kind of prominent figures in Australian cricket. And once he spoke about race and he didn't want to come across as someone who just like, brought up the race card. And the moment he did, he had to point at the other Brown person in the room and kind of talk about our shared experiences. And so, which is why, and Mel and I were speaking about it off air. It's going to take a much longer time here for things like that to be addressed seriously and for people to take it seriously, whether it's me being abused racially wherever I go in this country, or especially at at cricket grounds. Even though I wrote a very strong article about three, four summers ago, or what Usman Kwaja continues to face and other Brown cricketers as well. Because you look around the, the, the top tier of Australian cricket, there you can count the number of South Asian origin cricketers, men and women, in like, you know what, seven or eight of them. A couple of them play test for international cricket for the women's team. And even in Sheffield Shield cricket there are only five. So I think it'll take a much longer time because even now when, when you speak out, Henry, or you talk about your experiences, there are a lot of people who feel for you. But then it just kind of either gets swept under the carpet or, or people ignore it. And I think the other thing I have realized is when you do move to another country and, and you look different and you sound different, your instinct is to somehow try to fit in. And then you realize you'll never be able to fit in. Like Kawa just said, I mean, he tried fitting into that Australian cricket team for the first five years, but then you realize you'll always be different, you know, and you, at some point then that fitting in or the quest to fit in soon transforms into just your quest for acceptance for who you are. And that can take a long time, it might never happen. And then you just reach a point. Probably age plays a role as well. I mean, he's pretty much the same age as me where you start feeling, feeling more confident in your own skin and you just say, you know, these people are never going to accept me for as one of their own, so I'll just be, be my own person. And then the other thing also is you also, you know, he spoke about, you know, realizing who his true friends are and who aren't. And I think my take on that is I've experienced it firsthand within the media. You are everybody's best friend till the time they feel threatened by you. Like they feel like you're coming for their spot or your presence might impact how they are. And I'm not saying all of them, but like you experience it. And then that's when you start questioning yourself about, wait, am I truly accepted or am I accepted? Only on good days can you talk.

Us through your experiences? And you say you've written about it and I remember reading the article. But for those that won't have seen it, talk us through the day to day experiences that you have seen in cricket from your perspective.

Yeah, see, firstly you look a certain way and it's not just about color. I mean, look, I accept that. I look, I stand out with my hair and the straggly beard and the clothes I wear. So I know that the unknown always leads to people. I mean, it's suspicion. And more than suspicion, fear. So for me, it's part of my daily existence in this country. I know more people know me now than they did a few years ago. But even then, you know, you go through airports, you go through daily life, there are the odd barbs thrown at you. I mean, I had one like just last year, where this lady, we were going through security, she just looked at me and said, like, what? Where are you flying to? And I said, oh, Adelaide. And she's like, thank God you're not coming to Brisbane. I wouldn't feel safe if you're on the same flight as me. And you kind of look at her and go, well, what do you do? Or you go walk into a train in Perth and there's this young person. It breaks my heart when it's a young person. They just look at you and immediately cover their nose as if, like, you know, you're just a. A smelly brown person. So I'm so used to it outside the parameters of cricket. But when you are just doing a job, wearing an accreditation card and watching the nets, and I do that a lot, and then on a yearly basis, you get singled out by a security guard or someone in power, and rud you're asked to leave, you're cussed at, even though there are at least five white journalists standing right next to you doing the same job, but they don't get singled out. And then you need Usman Khawaja or a Steve Smith or a Manus Labochain to jump to your support and say, hey, hey, wait, hang on. You know, he's doing his job. And then even then, the security guard or whoever it is looks at you suspiciously. You just go like, wait, hang on. I can't even be accepted in a world that I have inhabited for so long in our cricket world. So, yeah, it does break your heart. But Usman Kaaja said this to me when I wrote that article. He said, you'll just get immune to it, don't worry. And sadly enough, I have, like, it happened at the start of this series in Perth. I was just stood there behind the nets and immediately there was a white secretary guard who walked up to me and he started kind of yelling at me and. And Uzi. And I just looked at. Usman was batting the nets. He just looked around and Said, not again, bro. How. How many more times do you want me to protect you? And now, honestly, there's. And others have jumped in for, for, like, for support as well. But today I stood there listening to him talk about it when he pointed it out and I was like, oh, hang on, he's going to go, who's going to protect me next summer, Mel? Might have to jump in for myself. But it's. Yeah, it's one of those things, Henry, like, you know, you. Every year or every time you think it's going to change. There are more of us now, more. Like Australia is getting multicultural on a daily basis. You see it especially you go to a city like Perth or Brisbane, like, I went to Perth for that. India, Oda, there's so many more Indian people there, so many more Pakistani people everywhere. But. But yeah, I think it'll take a long time before this country wholeheartedly accepts all of us, especially when it comes to cricket.

Asma Kawaja went on to say, Mel, that where Australia is now more widely and within cricket is a lot further forward than it was when he started playing. But clearly there's. Listen to Barat there and there's a lot to do.

Yeah, there is a lot to do. And I think that's sort of everywhere. I look at programs that, say, exist within the English system, like the SAKA and ACE and the incredible work that they're doing to actively try and improve the representation because they know, I guess with saca, you know, that how many young people there are playing cricket to a certain level and then they kind of disappear.

That's a South Asian cricket academy. Yes, sorry, based in Birmingham.

Yeah.

Oh, sorry, sorry. Yes. I shouldn't assume, but, you know. So the South Asian Cricket Cricket Academy has massively increased. I think they're up to about 18 players now playing in, have got deals in the county game. And as Bharat said, there's still only five here. And this is a really aspirational sport in this country. So there are areas as well that are like that one that comes to mind is like a Sunshine Cricket. I think it's called Sunshine Heights Cricket Club in Melbourne is an area where they were trying to do a lot of work, but here seems very much more. There are these programs, but it's all quite softly, softly. There's not been any direct target. All right, we're going to increase this, this to this or we're going to get here. And look, he has been quite a powerful figure and, you know, he didn't always speak his mind. It's not that he has always done that at all. It took him really, I think, until he was established as an international cricketer that he did actually feel comfortable and confident enough to say something. So, yeah, it's interesting. I thought, for me, I thought the part that was very interesting was the fact, the stuff he said about the former players. And I think that that was that he couldn't, didn't feel that he even had have the support of other cricketers. And I reckon that the reason that he pointed that out so much is because that's probably hurt him the most that when you're experiencing this and the whole country's got a long, long way to go, but the fact that even within the cricket community, some very high profile people he feels have openly attacked him. It can be that way when it comes to women in some ways as well, which is I always feel, feel very comfortable when I'm, I'm in England. There are some areas here, when I come back here, I think we've got a bit to catch up to, to get to England. And we were talking about that. We kind of feel that as well. In some ways this is still a young country that is finding its feet when it comes to dealing with various issues and, and I think we see that come to the fore. And the reason it's so big is because cricket is so big and everyone sees it here. So for, for someone you know of Usman Kawaj's fame and stature to say what he said, I think it really does show that while it has improved, it's got a long way to go.

It does. And Cricket Australia have tried in the last three, four years to come up with a multicultural plan. I think that's what it's called. So they've appointed a bunch of us, which includes Usman Khawaja and me and Lisa Staleker and others within the South Asian community and the wider Asian community as well, to play certain roles as multicultural ambassadors. But in my conversations with Cricket Australia and people in, I play a similar role for the AFL as well. I have since last year. And you realize that more than anything else, there's a lack of understanding of how diverse South Asia is. And, and it's not as straightforward as just get a bunch of, you know, young brown kids and get them to play cricket. And the one thing always talk about is the cultural understanding of the relationships between a parent and, and a coach because there is, you see the numbers at junior cricket grassroots levels. Henry and Mel, they are going up all the time. And you cover a lot of under 19 World cup cricket, Mel. You see a lot more South Asian kids there. But there is a drop off. There is a massive drop off. And that's where I think someone like me, I think have a huge role. And Usman Kaja as well. And explaining the, the other side of it, it, the other side of, like, what you need to do to sustain those players, keep them in the game. And, you know, this, this is a game I always play with them. I say, okay, you talk about being inclusive. So, all right, so you have like a lot of Indian kids playing in your club. So how are you going to include the parents? What are you going to do? What are you going to organize? And before they answer, I say, you're going to, you're going to say curry night, aren't you? And they're like, yeah, yeah, Matt, yeah, yeah. And I said, see, that's where you make a mistake. There's, you know, even the word curry has so many different definitions. So you have to really put in a real effort. This, like, no level of tokenism. I'm not accusing anyone of tokenism here. But if you're just going to use the numbers game here, I don't think you'll see a massive change happen at the top level. And as much Usman Khawaja wants the pathway for the next Usman Khawaja to be easier than it was for him. Obviously it would be easier. Thirty years have passed since. But it won't be as easy as he thinks or as straightforward as he would like it to be, or I would like it to be.

Well, what I think is a difference in what you've seen happen within, say, Cricket Scotland and the ECB is there's been a real look at. You talk about the Barra, you're talking about the sort of wider cricket culture, but actually the structural cricket culture and the changes that need to be made within that so that there is an environment there that can be created and that goes back to some real organisational cultural things. So that, that, that's been something that's been huge focus, obviously with the ecb and it has been at cricket Scotland as well, where whereas here, the sort of stuff you're talking about, the encouragement, it's, it's in this, the actual structure of the hierarchy. And I think it sort of goes deeper than that. And that's what I'm not sure has been addressed in how do we change the. The. That. That very, very white male culture that has existed in Australian cricket for a Long time and that women have only just started being accepted into. And now we've got people from other cultures as well, other skin colours, other religions. Do we actually have the structures to be able to deal with that? I know that they have done a lot of work on that here, but in England there's just been a lot more of, I think, I think introspection when it comes to do we have all the pillars, right, to make sure that this never happens again and what's.

Happened in the past, I think people, what we spoke about earlier as well. I think the UK is just used to seeing people around. Right. I mean you look at, there's so many generations of South Asians who have lived in the uk. There have been, you know, the like migration from South Asia has been, probably has been going on here in Australia since the 80s and 90s. I know a lot of family and friends who moved here at that point point but they were far and few in between. Like now you look at just there are 5 million Indian origin people living in Australia and that number has grown significantly as we were reminded a lot when they marched against people of my kind in every major city. And there were two major marches as well that how there are more Indians in particular who moved in the last 10 years than Italians and Greeks in the last 70 years. So now think whether it's cricket, Australia or whether it's the Australian government, they're just getting used to seeing more and more people of different color and different backgrounds just call Australia home. And it's leading to, you know, away from the cricket as well. I mean there are housing crisis, there's rental crisis and, and I think, I don't think Australia is the first country when something like that happens or there's a job crisis. The first thing you point out is those aliens who've come from everywhere else and taken our jobs and our houses. So that's the level at which Australia is right now in terms of its evolution as a country. And then you think about cricket which still, I mean it's still run largely by white people. I mean there are a couple of people here and there in positions of power but. But like Mel said this, it has to come from within. Where. Yeah, I mean they're trying, they're trying their best to reach out and understand what it is or even the difference between. And the question that gets asked first, Henry, like, you know, when you go around, like I've. I do umpiring as well in South Australia and often it'll be like a. You Know, retired white person who I'm umpiring with. And just the fact that it starts with, so which one are you? Like, which. And you know, so I don't think things like that you'll get away with in the uk, right? The subtle or the casual racism that does exist in this country still kind of just. You can just laugh it off and go like, ah, that's all right, man, you can. But. Whereas from what I've heard about, about UK and just the cricket culture in uk, I'm in the Yorkshire issue and all that, people are held to account a lot more over there as clearly if they are not here. Because the fact that every year I go to the gaba, every year it's a different white guy who tells me to get off the F in lawn. And I complain to Cricket Australia, the cricketers complain to Cricket Australia, but it happens. So to the extent this year I had to call the Cricket Australia person in charge three days before the GABA Test and said, man, I'm getting a bit of PTSD here. I know I'm going to get yelled at. I know I'm going to get abused, used. So can we do something about it? And guess what happened? It still happened. So I think there's. Yeah, I think we need more, stronger structures in place. And the only way that's going to happen is more and more of us. Like, you know, today in that room, there were two of us, which is why Usman Khawaja kept. We went back and forth. Like, even when I asked him the question, he threw it back at me because we were. And apart from his parents in the room, we were the only two people who could relate with. With what's happened. And. And I think, yeah, it's gonna take a long while, but I'm happy that someone with his voice has started speaking out more. And to your point, Mel, you're right. I mean, he didn't do this or he wasn't so open about his feelings earlier on, because neither was I.

Right.

And you were there with me when the Mohammad Siraj thing happened right here at the SCG and we did it on your YouTube channel where it came from within. I felt like, hang on, I have a voice in this country now if I'm not using that voice. And. And I have thick skin, but that's not the same, maybe for the other 4 million of us who live in this country who are of Indian or South Asian origin. So it is my responsibility and my duty to speak on their behalf. And the reactions I got from people of color and not just from South Asia, even people from Africa and everywhere else after I wrote that article was just such overwhelming support. And they said, hang on, finally we have someone speaking for us. So I think you only get to do that once. You kind of feel safe, right? More than anything else. But then there are these marches and you feel unsafe again. So it's a country which is going through this massive transition. We talk about the middle order a lot with Australia, but I think Australia as a country as well is going through this rapid phase of transition, which I'm sure Mel you see every time you come back during the summer.

Both of you, thank you very much for your time. Bharat Sundar Eisen, Melinda Farrell really so grateful to get your thoughts on what Usman Khawaja spoke about so passionately this morning.

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Have the opportunity to put a positive spin to the back end of their tour, having won in Melbourne the chance to make the series 3, 2. The Ashes may have gone, but there is still the potential for a real positive Note to start 2026 and wrap up what has ultimately been a disappointing Ashes tour. Zach Crawley, the England opener was wheeled out in front of the media earlier on today and he spoke to the BBC's chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemer.

Zac, can you just tell us what that win in Melbourne did for you guys as a group?

We were, well, it made us very happy. Yeah, we were, you know, we came here and it was obviously a disappointing first month to the tour and to have that much support in one ground and to Win like that. Yeah. Showed a lot of character from us and we were very happy.

There was a lot of chat after.

The Melbourne game about the pitch and the conditions and all those sorts of things, but also maybe about, I know, batting techniques as a collective on both sides. How difficult has batting been in this series?

It's been tricky. You know, like I said before, they're a fantastic bowling attack in these conditions and especially last week and Perth. I wasn't in the middle for Perth for very long, but it looked like a very tricky surface to battle. And those two pitches especially have been tough, but I feel like the two in the middle were good wickets and she's good Test matches. Those two were probably a fraction shorter than everyone in the crowd probably wanted. But, yeah, no, it's been tricky. They're a very good side in these conditions.

How does that change the role as an opener, particularly, I don't know, in the second innings there at Melbourne when you and Ben really attacked a target, but even not necessarily when you've got a target in mind, how does it change the job when you know that conditions are difficult?

Yeah. Funny enough, I felt like we had some clarity about that chase. It was probably the difference between Perth and Melbourne. You know, when you're chasing a score like that, it gives you a lot of clarity about how you need to play. And third innings is actually probably the hardest time to bat. You know, part of. Part of you wants to knock, you know, grind it out for your team and then. But then part of you knows you need to put some pressure back on the opposition. And actually chasing the score brought out quite a lot of freedom in the group and I think that helped.

How do you reflect on your series personally? Obviously, difficult start in Perth, but at the moment you're England's leading run scorer.

I've been pleased. I'm pleased with how I've played and, you know, like I said, I felt. I felt good in going into the series, but obviously would have liked a couple bigger scores that could have changed the course of a couple of games. So hopefully I can do that this week and contribute to a win.

How big a difference is it between 4:1 and 3:2?

Yeah, I think it is. I think there is a big difference that just internally in the group. I think that just shows a lot about our group and how united we are. If we can get a win and, you know, it might not go away, but if we can put up a good performance this week, I think that says a lot about us for the group.

Andrew McDonaldson said last week that Australia are only playing for World Test Championship points now that the Ashes are done. How do you guys see it from your point of view that it's still a Test match when you've got the three Lions on your shirt and a game for England against Australia?

Yeah, it's the greatest honour of my life every time I play for England, so I think everyone in the team and the squad feels the same. So, you know, playing against Australia is the pinnacle for us. And, you know, every time I get a chance to play against Australia, I'll leave everything on the field. And I think that's the same with everyone in that change.

And just finally, for me, you guys have got to make one change to the team because Gus has been ruled out. That might be Matthew Potts, who's been waiting a long time for his opportunity, not just on this tour, but over the past year as well. How's he tracking? How's he been going in the nets?

Really well. Faced a bit of potsy and, you know, every time I face him, he impresses me. He's got the heart of a lion, a lot of skill and, yeah, you know, he thoroughly deserves it and I'm sure it'll go well.

Well, that was Zach Crawley chatting to Stefan Schemel. Stefan is alongside me for England. He spoke a lot about how happy they were that they got that win in Melbourne. Of course they're going to be, but, you know, it ultimately is a disappointing tour, but there are still positives to, to potentially play for.

He's done a lot of media, hasn't he? Zack Crawley, for a man who got a pair in the first Test and normally is the, the players who are doing well that do the press and, and Zack Crawley is England's leading run scorer. You're talking about the sort of positives that, that can be taken away from this Test match. And even if England do win, I think there'll still be a lot of mixed feelings about it because so many people are just wondering what might have been. This was billed as, you know, the most anticipated Ashes tour in years. England's best chance to win the urn in this country since 2011. We're now looking at 40 years wearing them, have won only once an Ashes series in this country. And they were so disappointing in those first three games just because they didn't look on it, they didn't look prepared, they didn't look battle hardened and match sharp. And so if England were that to then win the last two Test matches after playing three games well, is that a cause for. I don't know, I use the word celebration but positivity or does it just add to the frustration that England got it wrong across those first three test matches? I guess the one point, the one thing that England can take away from this and a good result this week would be the point that Michael Vaughan made about his team in 2005 and his captaincy then in that he was part of a team in 2002, three that was four nil down and then they came and won in Sydney and he saw that as the, the catalyst for what he knew he had to do over the next couple of years to win the earn back. That's if England win. If England lose here and they lose this series 4:1 and if they were to, to lose this game, you know, in disappointing fashion where they were to come second by a long way in a two horse race, then just that pressure those questions over the futures, particularly of Brendan McCollum and Rob Key while they will get a little bit louder. So that's what's on the line this week. We had Andrew McDonald saying the Ashes are done, they're just playing for World Test championship points. It was the Ashes was done at 3 nil. And he's quite right. There is probably more on the line for, for England. Is Australia, are they going to take a little bit more out of a very, very disappointing tour or are questions that are being asked of the leadership, are they going to get louder?

Do you think they recognize that within the camp? Do you think the players, the coaches know the significance this week could hold?

I think at the very top level. I think if you get someone like Rob Key as the director of cricket, I think he knows the significance of this week. Richard Gould, the ECB chief executive, he is going to be in Sydney. The, the England management situation is complicated by the T20 World cup that England leave Sydney in on the 9th of January. I'm trying to get my days right. They leave on Friday and they'll be back going to Sri Lanka. I think they've got 10 days at home, the multi format players before they go off and play in that, that series in Sri Lanka and then go on to the T20 World cup and obviously Brendan McCollum is in charge of that. And I know a lot of people would say well England winning the T20 World cup is, is nothing compared to the performance in the Ashes. What would you say like winning the League cup but getting knocked out in the group stage of the Champions League? I think that's what that. That's the equivalent that we could make. But Brendan McCollum has two jobs. He is. He's in charge of the Test team and he's in charge of the white ball team. And his remit in the white ball team is to win World Cups. So if he goes and wins the T20 World cup, that is a success, that all second in the round. As for the players, I don't know if they're necessarily thinking that managerial jobs are on the line or there's going to be pressure on. On managers if it doesn't go well here because it's unhealthy to think like that if you're a cricketer, it's unhealthy to go into a Test match thinking that, you know, this could be my last innings or I might be about to get dropped or whatever. And realistically, I think we could have a pretty good go at naming the number of players from the England 11. That turns out here that we're playing in the first Test match against New Zealand in June. It'll be a good chunk of them. So, no, I. I don't think the players will be thinking that. They'll be thinking that they've got an opportunity to play at the scg. Another chance to perform well in an England shirt, to perform well in an Ashes Test and to get a good number next to their name because after all, you know, they'll want to leave here thinking, well, I've got positive memories of an Ashes tour or positive final memories, at least of an Ashes tour, of playing at this wonderful stadium, him. And then that maybe sets them up well going into. To the home summer and that series against New Zealand.

Sitting here in the Test match special commentary box, looking out at the pitch, which two days out you could only read so much into it. But again, there's a healthy covering of grass. There's a tinge of green to it.

There is. I mean, to look at the pitch, you've got to get past producer Jack, who's got his feet on a chair. You never get Peter Baxter doing that, would you? Back in the day. But yeah, there is a healthy tinge of grass on it, but it is not as green as it was so yesterday, New Year's Day when we came here, remember at the start of this series, Henry, when we're in Perth and the West Australian was talking green.

Mamba.

Yeah. So it was that. And I don't think it's that at the moment. And it's gradually got less and less green as the two Days have worn on it. In fact, it's less green now than it was this morning when we turned up for Usman Khawaja. Press conference forecast is mixed. There's a little bit of rain knocking around in Sydney, as there always is over the next few days. England haven't named their team today. They normally name a team two days out. They've decided not to. Part of the reason for that is because they're training in the afternoon as well. So sometimes when, when their afternoon training session comes and they haven't looked at the pitch and they just leave it alone and they don't make a decision. I still think the smart money would just be on a straight swap. Matthew Potts in for Gus Atkinson. I don't see how England can change the balance of team. They had a winning formula in Melbourne with Will Jack Spatting at eight and bowling a bit of offspin. Yes, we'll probably see Todd Murphy playing for Australia as a specialist spinner. Interesting. Earlier on as well, when we watched the Australia training session, Bo Webster was in at Gully, it wasn't Cameron Green. Cameron Green was feeding one of the assistant coaches to hit some big catches into the outfield. So I don't know if that's a suggestion that Bo Webster is going to come in for Cameron Green. But yeah, what we get from the Sydney surface, well, we'll pay a lot more attention maybe than what we normally do because there was so much attention on the Melbourne pitch. 10 millimeters of grass. I mean, you were there, Henry, weren't you? On, on what would have been day three. Have you ever heard such attention on a man being asked about how long he left, how long he left his grasses to the. The Melbourne curator Matt Page? I suspect we won't have anything quite like that in Sydney, but it has been Green, albeit not quite as green as it has been as it was yesterday.

He did say, by the way, Matt Page, that there was more grass on it for the, the game that England played here four years ago. So the millimeter edge of grass across surfaces in, in Victoria has never seen quite so much examination. But, but there we go. It's all part of the, the narrative of Ashes series. Another part of this, this Ashes series, Stefan, was the news that we got this morning. We've explored what Usman Khawa, in terms of some of the issues that he's suffered around in Australian cricket during his career, what about Usman Khawaja, the cricketer? Because this is going to be his final bow in international cricket and it's Been a career in two halves.

Yeah. Great survivor actually, isn't he, of Australian Test cricket in the way that he was a prodigy really, who came in and then it didn't work out for him so well at the start and he had to go away and come back. Right now in this Australian squad there are only two players who played when England last won a Test series here. One of them is Steve Smith, the other one is Usman Kawa. Just that tells you how long he's been around for and the sort of the, the late career renaissance that he had when he came back into the side in the last Ashes in this country four years ago, then found himself at the top of the order in the early part of the 2023 Ashes in the UK. It just felt like he was batting forever, didn't it? I think he batted on every day of the first Test match at Edgbaston and he was a huge reason as to why Australia put together a 2 nil lead. He sits 15th at the moment on the all time list of Australian Test run scorers. If he gets 30 in this test, he'll go to 14th above my cossey and just below Don Bradford Bradman. Well, if you're next to Don Bradman in any sort of list, well, you're pretty happy with that, aren't you? And, and he was telling us this morning that he, he grew up after his family moved from Pakistan when he was 5 years old, that he lived in this area and he saw Michael Slater driving around his red Ferrari and he thought, I want to be a Test cricketer. I want to be able to drive whatever car I want. Well, he's done that and here he is on the ground where, where he learned his game, where he played for New South Wales, where he made his Test debut, where he made his Test comeback and where he'll end his Test career. I'm sure he. A wonderful farewell from. From the Sydney crowd, Stefan.

Thank you very much indeed. Test Match Special will be live 10:55 on Saturday evening, bringing full ball by ball coverage of the fifth and final men's Ashes Test match. And there is perhaps just a little more riding on it than might appear at first glance. Don't forget BBC Sounds. If you subscribe to the TMS podcast, you'll be able to find delights such as no Balls with Kate Cross and Alex Hartley, as well as a treasure trove of Ashes material. If you just search the word Ashes on BBC Sounds, you will not miss a thing. Looking forward to Saturday. Looking forward to the final offering from this men's Ashes series from here at the Sydney Cricket Ground. Thanks so much for listening. TMS at the Ashes.

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