The Ashes Preview

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Hello there. Welcome to the Test Match special podcast. The wait is almost over. Are you ready?

You've got this tiny little pot of dust that means so much more because of everything that's gone into it.

Convicts versus Mother England. I guess it goes all the way back to that.

Butterflies are that much more pronounced when you're playing an Ashes series.

The stakes are that much higher.

The Ashes is something that means a lot to cricketers from both sides. It's still the ultimate.

And in comes Pat Cummings from the far end.

He bowls to Stokes, who hammers it for four. The most extraordinary innings ever. Ever been played by an Englishman.

Shane Warne off only two or three paces.

He bowls and Gatting is taken on the pace bowl.

Harmussen comes up and bowls and Kasparovic goes back and parries one as he caught down the leg side. There's an appeal. The catches out. England have won by two runs. England was too good for us in this series and all credit to them.

Warren bolster Catech fort.

He's hit it straight up in the air. He should be caught by Lehman.

He's out.

England out for just 79.

Pratt off hits them. They could then to probably run out a marvelous piece of fielding by Gary Pratt.

Broads coming up, leading on his back.

That looks to me to be edged a slip.

And Alan Dar is saying not out.

And the Australians are furious.

Lily in bowling now to both of them outside the office stump.

He hammers this square through the covers forms a lovely shot. Here's Wicks in bows to Bright Bright bow.

The middle stamps out of the ground.

England have won. They've won by 18 runs. Cook bowls to Boone again and Boone.

Does have a go.

And he hits the winning run.

Australia have taken the Test and they've taken the action. And he drives the ball and he.

Gets a run and he gets to 200. That is a wonderful milestone for Kevin.

Peterson as Tufnel bowls around the wicket term.

And he steps back and hits that hard out to the boundary.

Mark Moore has made a century on debut for Australia.

Anderson's bowled and it's all over.

Australia have won magnificently by 405 runs.

Australia and England.

The Ashes is the ultimate for us.

We feel very lucky and fortunate enough.

That we're able to be a part.

Of something like that. It's 11 of us. The 11 of them.

Yes, yes, yes. That will do it. The 2025 Ashes. The first Test in Perth, less than four days away. 2:20 Friday morning all gets underway. Five sports extra and BBC sounds. Three years since the Basball revolution, their toughest test. Can you win the Ashes in Australia, victory would be the culmination of the Basball project. It would immortalize Ben Stokes and this team in English sporting history. But their record in Australia is not good since that 2010-11 victory. Fifteen Tests, 13 defeats and no wins. This is the ultimate challenge for English cricket. And this is our preview programme. With us, we have got England spinner Jack Leach, part of England's last touring squad to Australia four years ago, scorer of the most famous one not out in Ashes history. We have former England batter Mark Ramprakash. 12 Ashes Test. Part of the coaching setup, of course, as well to in 2015. And in the Australian corner, former Aussie wicketkeeper Ryan Campbell, the head coach at Durham, where of course, he has a close eye on Ben Stokes and Mark Wood. Guys, that felt epic. I'm feeling good, I'm feeling confident. Mark, it can only go downhill from here.

Yeah, no, I disagree. I think it's. I'm very punchy about England's chances.

Yes.

Actually, I have to say, and to be honest with you, history I don't think counts for much in terms of where the England team are at. Where this squad are at. They've been pretty settled. They're very clear on their identity, how they want to go out and play. And of course, the opposition, well, they're in absolute disarray, aren't they? Missing their captain, their leader, the opening bowler who sets the Tone debutant, maybe as opening the batting. There's a lot of question marks, a lot of change in that Australian dressing room and I think England will grab the initiative early and go on to do very well.

Ryan, I think Mark's right. I think he is punchy. Just listen to that. Here we go.

Yeah, yeah. It's all great until someone bowls the first ball. No, no, in all honesty, you should be very confident about, you know, England's chances. They've performed okay, like, to a standard where, you know, I would have thought they should have beaten India in on home soil, but they played a lot of really, really good cricket and they've had a couple of good years where they built a side that they think is purposely built for Australia. The problem is you haven't won there since 2010. That's a long time to not win a game of cricket in Australia. But look, at the end of the day, it's going to be a ripping series. But the most important thing, and I think this is the little bit that people forget sometimes, Test cricket is not being spoken enough about around the world. And the Ashes gives us a chance to everyone get on their soapbox and talk about the game. My team's going to win, your team's going to win. I'm going to stay up and watch it, or I'm not going to stay up and watch it. But, you know, we're talking test cricket and I think the world needs it.

Jack, I'm so here for this. We've got Punchy Mark, we've got Prideful. Ryan, what are you bringing to the table tonight? Because it just. It's feeling like now we're getting underway, now we're starting. It's Ash's week.

Yeah. I mean, it's so exciting. I think you remember how. How much chat there is around, especially in a way, Ash's series for England. Yeah, it seems like there's. There's a lot of chat pre series. And like Ryan said, I think it's just waiting for the cricket to get going. I'm sure as players, they'll be desperate to get going. You know, when there's all the chat and stuff, I think you're just eager to kind of start that first Test and I'm sure that's the same for both sides. So, yeah, it's going to be epic and I can't wait to watch it.

What is that wait like, then? Mark, you know, when it's the week of, when we're about to get underway, presumably, and we'll talk about all the, you know, the noise that goes along with an Ashes series, whether it's in England or Australia. But presumably at this point you're just like, please can we stop talking and start playing.

Well, from my own experiences, I have to go all the way back to 1998 when I toured and we had three first class games, three four day matches that we played against very good stateside. I think Ryan might have been playing for WA and smacked it everywhere, but we played some really good cricket sides in preparation. But when we went to Brisbane for the first Test, you know, the whole intensity, the whole atmosphere was different. It was very exciting, but there was a nervous energy to it. You're embarking on a five test tour in Australia. It doesn't get any bigger for an England cricketer than that. And Australia is a fantastic place to tour, I have to say. The facilities are fabulous, the grounds are brilliant, the crowds are great, they're noisy and of course there's a lot of stick flying around, but that just makes the whole atmosphere all the better. And if you could live to tell the tale, you know, the climate. So there's, there's so much to enjoy about touring Australia. But yes, there is some verbals, there's some noise. I remember in 2016, 17 when I toured as part of the coaching staff. Nathan Lyon was pretty vocal before the first test about wanting to finish some careers. And that riled one or two of our players. I mean, most of them are fairly phlegmatic, but nevertheless, you know, it's just part of the rhetoric that can get said before the series that can just needle and chip away at people. And if you can gain any sort of psychological edge, then, you know, they try and do it.

Ryan, do you remember your efforts in, in that game with the bat?

Thanks for bringing it up. I got 146.

Well, what'd you get in the first innings?

I got knocked over clean as a whistle, I reckon, very early on.

LBW Gough for one.

Yeah, the Green Whacker.

Do you want to focus on the 146?

Yeah, let's talk about the good, mate. The good, the good. But you know, the funny thing is, like, as state players, and I know you guys, I'm sure we'll probably, you know, there'll be questions about preparation and all that, and to be honest, England's preparation doesn't bother me, what whatsoever. But in the past, the Australian side, from an Australian viewpoint, when England landed on our shores, and generally it used to be the festival of cricket at Lilac Hill, they Used to play a game there and then they'd play wa. Our job was to try and absolutely belt the crap out of England and to make sure that they got off the plane and thought to themselves, all right, and this is just the state team. But that was a part of, you know, growing up in Australia of the states. You know, you can say there's nothing on it, but. But the facts were there always was, because we all felt we had a job to do and to help and play our small part, so to speak. So, look, it's like I say, I think the preparation of England is exactly what they wanted. And that's the thing. It's what they think is needed. And again, I reckon it's probably the most important bit is the next three days, because for the first time, they actually train at the stadium and that's where the wickets are. Very similar to what's going to be out in the middle. Because let me promise you, Lilac Hill ain't anything like the stadium because it's as flat as anything, whereas once you get in the stadium, it's a whole different beast. So, yeah, I think the most important part for England will be the next three or four days.

Mark, I feel like it's totally legit just to have another couple words on preparation, but at that point, I think we'll just dive into the excitement of the Ashes. What I suppose this does tell you all the discussion around preparation or lack thereof, it just highlights all of the scrutiny, which is just dialed up to a thousand as soon as you arrive for an Ashes tour.

It is, absolutely. And look, I think it's a legitimate point of discussion. And, you know, you had some greats of English cricket, Ian Botham, Graham Gooch and Michael Vaughan, you know, and they're gonna give their opinion and that's what they're paid to do. That's no problem. You know, Ben Stokes understands that that's the landscape that they're in. Look, it is different, I mean, even from the tour that I mentioned eight years ago, you know, there is chalk and cheese, but there's so much difference between what the preparation was then eight years ago and what it's been now. So I mentioned that there were three first class games that England played now. You know, the players felt that, okay, some of the pitches were quite flat and some of the sides didn't possess the pace that the Test side were going to have, I. E. Come in Stark and Hazelwood. Okay, fine. But as Zach Crawley mentioned in his interview, at the end of the day, when he got 80 odd. He said, look, it's runs in the middle and you know, as a batsman, you've got to get your match head on. When you go into a match, if you skim one in the net to cover or backward point, it doesn't matter, no one notices. You do it in a game and you have to walk off the pitch, there's a consequence. So you need to get your match head on. The bowlers need to look for their rhythm in their run ups. They need to keep their foot behind the line. You know, they've got to stand in the field. So that's what match practice is all about. And I think that the great players were, were just trying to point that out. I think to play Australian opposition is preferable. Look, Ben's right. The games moved on and the scheduling was tricky and the guys were over, the ODI squad were over in New Zealand. So it may not have been easy. I, I think personally that they could have done with a first class game against Australia in opposition. The England captain used a phrase, balls to the wall. I don't think I've heard an England captain use, use that expression before. Quite frankly, I'm not sure quite whether that happened or not. But we know that the intensity dropped post tee certainly on the first two days. And so I'm not sure it came across a bit like a training match. There were some good things that came out of it clearly, like the overs under the belt for the bowlers, but, you know, it just had the feel of a bit of a glorified middle practice.

Right then, Jack, let's move on to the start of a series. Then ball one of the Ashes which has taken on almost like a life of its own because there are actually a long list of really dramatic first balls that we've had. And obviously people will immediately think to Steve Harmisen at the Gabba in 2006 and his first ball being taken at slip. Michael slater hits Phil DeFreitas for four in 94. Rory Burns bowled first ball in Brisbane. Zach Crawley. I was there for that, that four. First ball off Pat Cummings in 2023. Basball's kind of first Ashes appearance. You were there for the Rory Burns one, weren't you? I mean, what is the atmosphere like for a first ball at the Ashes?

Yeah, I mean, I was walking from the changing room to the seating area and the changing rooms are underneath the ground, really. And so I was walking through and I just heard this massive eruption and the seats like banging me. And I thought, oh no, is this a Sign of things to come. And I remember having that sinking feeling thinking, this is going to be tough. So, yeah, I mean, I do feel like getting off to a good start does play its part. Obviously not, you know, it's not going to decide the series, but I think momentum is a big thing and obviously, even in, you know, we haven't even bowled a ball yet and, you know, you're waking up to news of Hazelwood or Woody being fit and it feels like a bit of momentum. So it's. Yeah, it's going to be fascinating to see what happens on that first ball and that first day.

Ryan. It's fascinating. That idea of that sinking feeling that can happen from the very first ball of a series, it just carries. Well, it carries the weight of history, doesn't it? Anybody who's involved in that ball knows in the back of their mind whether they're bowling or batting what happens in the next few seconds might be remembered forever.

Yeah, well, it's funny because I look at it two ways now, as, as a player, I used to open the batting with Mike Hussey and refused to face the first ball just for that reason, because I didn't want to get our first ball because I was a bit. Bit known for getting caught a deep third man or something stupid off the first one. So I refused. But as a coach, I got to try and play the whole calmness, come on, it's just another ball. Whatever happens, happens, blah, blah, blah. But, yeah, there is something, you know, you think to yourself, if you lose a wicket on the first ball, it's like, oh, geez, should we have batted first or should we. We should have bowled first. I knew we should have bowled first. So you start to have mental sort of tricks on your mind. But like I say, there's a whole different host of emotions, especially as a coach. It's kind of okay, stay calm. Don't, don't, don't get, don't let on that you are now absolutely in no man's land. But as a player, I just think, you know what, it's one ball. If you get out, you get out. I guess it's, you know, the bowler is trying to bowl his very best ball. He's trying to set the tone. I don't know how many times you've heard the old thing where that, you know, you go out in the ring first over. We got to set the tone. We got to set the tone. So everyone's trying to set the tone. I guess it's just about who can do it.

Best, I guess. Market's about controlling your emotions, whatever you're doing.

Yeah, and the great players do that really well. So for example, Alistair Cook, you know, comes to mind a great player who was never going to get flustered by the occasion, you know, outwardly anyway. He always seemed in control of his emotions and went out and played the game he wanted to play. Of course, Michael Slater, I remember that shot, I remember watching it. And Michael, he used to play that way, you know, he used to, you know, take it on and the adrenaline was flowing and those guys feed off of that energy and they tend to be quite aggressive, so they're tricky to bowl up, but they give you a chance. Someone like an Alistair Cook may, you know, he might leave all six balls in the first, in the first over, you know, that such is his temperament to want to play the long game, you know, back his concentration, back his defensive technique and look to play along innings.

There's a, there's a great quote which I've got to read from Steve Harmisen's book, all about that first ball in, in 2006. He writes, I'm stood at the top of my mark and I'm feeling the heat. Not so much the heat of the sun, rather the heat of expectation. The hype leading up to this moment has been a never ending storm of craziness. And I'm right in the eye, the ball is in my hand. It's up to me to bowl the first delivery of an Ashes series that's been talked up and pontificated over since I bowled the final ball of the last one. So that, Jack, is just a great indication of what would be going through one's mind at that moment.

Yeah, definitely. And I guess that's the job of Baz and Stokesie for, for England to kind of get those guys in the right mindset. They'll be looking to put the pressure on Australia whether they're batting or bowling first, you know, straight away try and put that pressure on them. So I think as players, if you're looking to, to do something positive in the game, rather than survive the first over or not go for a boundary in the first over, you know that that's going to be quite a negative place to be. Whereas if you're kind of looking to make an impact in the game, that's what, what they've wanted and it's trying to realize that even though it is a big series, you know, this is, it's just another game of cricket and those guys are ready for that and that's what Bazin and Stokes, he'll be trying to make those guys believe. For that first. First ball.

I think we should talk about the kind of the phony war which sort of ends at the first ball of the Ashes, but also sort of doesn't because whatever happens after it then becomes the new story. But like, at the moment, you've had the channel, 10 cameras in Australia were filming Ben Stokes and Joe Root just playing golf. Western Australian newspaper had pictures of Stokes when he arrived in Perth. Front page describes him as cocky, captain complainer. I mean, it is never ending, Ryan, isn't it? And I think it is unique to Australia. Is that fair?

No, no, no, no, no, no. He's up. He's up here, mate.

You think we're his bat.

We grew up with the English tabloids. You guys were the ones that we thought were terrible. I got to admit, though, I actually saw the West Australian. Obviously I'm a Perth boy, and I saw those comments or the. The front page. And I actually text a lot of my mates going, mate, I know I haven't lived at home for a while, but is this, you know, change of ownership and it's all about clickbait now, they tell me. And it's all about all the. The young kids, you know, logging on and things like that. But I looked up that journalist. I don't think he's actually a cricket journalist. The bloke that wrote the front page. So, yeah, it's all fun and game, but again, I try. I got a bit, you know, shirty about it. Cause I didn't. I want wa to, you know, put on a good show and I don't want that stuff. And I'm also a bit, you know, in my old, old age. And an English bloke sort of, you know, looking after Stokes and casts and pots and so a little bit, you know, I want them to do well, but you guys to lose. But, you know, I saw that and I just thought to myself, you know what, just take a step for a minute. Step back. Cricket is on the front page and the back page of the newspaper. That doesn't happen too often in Australia. It's always at the back page. Don't get me wrong, but very rarely do you get cricket on the front page of our papers. And, mate, that's what the Ashes bring. That's what I mean. That's the hype that comes with it. And, you know, I've no doubt everyone. I think everyone's a bit different now. Social media's given everyone a Platform, Everyone wants to say something smart or take a photo of this bloke or that bloke. And I think a lot of it you just gotta take with a pinch of salt.

You missed one thing out there though, I think, Ryan, when you were talking about the reasons, you weren't too happy with it. Surely one of them is that. And Jack will be able to tell us more about this in a moment, but surely one of them is the fact that you will know, Ryan, how that kind of thing is likely to impact Ben Stokes. And isn't the point that it's not going to be good for Australia that.

Mate, there's two blokes that you wouldn't have. I wouldn't have a crack at.

Exactly.

That's Ben Stokes and Joe Root. Those two are the calmest and guys that take it on board and they're going to give it back in spades. I was thinking, geez, at least pick your targets a bit better. Come on. You know, I don't think they knew. I don't think that guy knew anyone else's name. That was the problem.

I imagine Jack then. So, I mean, look, obviously you know these guys inside out of that whole side. Is Ben Stokes the one who would be the worst person to target in terms of the knock on effect on what he can do to you, if you see what I mean.

Yeah, I would say Stokes. I remember in 2019 at Headingley when he obviously played that amazing innings and the night before he came off and he was 6 off 60 balls or something and Warner had been going at him and he said in the dressing room that night, he said, I'm not walking off that pitch until we've won the game. And he was really fired up and I was like, wow, that's a big call with so many runs needed. And then obviously ended up doing it. So, yeah, I was, I thought, wow, this guy means business. When he says something, he means it. So yeah, he probably would be number one.

Where's Joe on that list? Out of interest? Because he's obviously, he doesn't have that same character, but that doesn't mean that he won't feel the same fire. You just might not see it as much.

Yeah, definitely. I think look at the amount of runs he scored. You're going to have a lot about you as a person to kind of go through what he's gone through in his career and the highs that he's had and how hard he's had to work for them. So I think he does it in maybe a Quieter way.

But.

I think he's pretty deep down, he's pretty motivated for this. And yeah, it's obviously a lot of chat about the fact that he's never scored 100 in Australia. So I feel like he's going into it with a lot to prove and I do feel like his game has, you know, under Baz and Stokes, his leadership have come on again so it's going to be really interesting to see how he fares over there this time.

So we've, we've nicely, kind of touched lightly on just a few of the figures that we're going to go in depth on. Ben Stokes, Joe Root, Nathan Lyon and the list goes on and on. I think we should just do Perth now though, Ryan. And this is, you know, this is your city, right, isn't it? So what should England expect in all.

Senses, the greatest beaches in the world, that's for one. I sent Carsey out with a mate today to go fishing. So he had a good time, saw his first shark, which, yeah, don't go swimming too many places between unless you're between the flags, otherwise you might lose a couple of your players. But look, the end of the day, Perth, the wicket is as unique as any wicket in the world. It's not like anywhere in the world and the stadium is a drop in pitch. But what they did was they found some clay which we hadn't found for a long time and it's basically the old wack of clay but they found the new stuff basically and they've built these drop in pitches that bounce incredible amounts. And that's the thing. So as a bowler you might think, and this is going to be the test for England. As a bowler you see the bounce and you think, oh this is exciting and you start bowling too short. You actually have to bowl full in Perth because people will drive at lengths that are not quite right. But the facts are it is different to anywhere else. And that's where the true test is. And that's why I say to you the preparation these three days or whatever, many times they're going to train, they have to be in the nets. You have to understand it because, you know, I took, unfortunately I took the Dutch lads, the World cup, you know, to Perth and we played Pakistan and I kept trying to tell them it's the best, the greatest place in the world to bat because you can trust the bounds, blah, blah, blah. And I'm thinking to myself, these guys are going to die. You know, they're going to face 150 kilometer hours after coming off mats and all that, and they pretty much did. But it was true.

That was a good team talk.

Yeah, no, it was a great team talk. But it's true. Once you get in, it is a fantastic place to bat. And that's where I guess you guys love calling it basball. Whatever it is the aggressive approach that England take, that's where in Australia, and especially in Perth, the first 10 to 20 balls are the most important of your life. If you can get through those 20 balls, you get to understand it a bit more and then the runs will flow. Don't get me wrong, it'll start to happen. And if Australia drop a bloke back like they did on that first ball of those, that test match all those times ago, mate, you can't cover the gaps. The ground is so big that it creates more scoring opportunities. So, yeah, my interesting thing for me will be the first 20 balls to every single English batter. And the other one is when they take on the pull shot or the hook shot if they're not in control at most places, that goes for six, mate. The Perth stadium is massive. It's an AFL ground, it's a footy ground. It is the biggest ground in Australia. So if you're not quite getting it, you're going to be out, not six, by 27 rows back. I would have thought so, yeah. That's the other interesting one for me. But I hope the lads are actually enjoying themselves in Perth. All the Lions lads are there too, so it is a wonderful place to visit.

I mean, that sounds like a lot of fun, Mark, I've got to say.

Well, Perth is a great city. I was very lucky. I went and played there in 96 for the uni University of Perth in the, in the grade competition. And I absolutely loved it. It is a fabulous place. The climate was wonderful, as I said, the facilities were fantastic. I mean, we at the waca, it was alarming that the, the amount that the ball bounced to some degree when you first went in the first couple of times, you know, you had some big boys, six foot five bowlers, and suddenly, you know, the ball is bouncing from an area which normally you play comfortably. And so England, England are going to have to adapt. It's not necessarily something they like doing. They want to go hard and be aggressive. But if you think about, I mean, Zach Crawley, of course has been selected for this very reason that he plays the ball above the waist. His statistics are outstanding and so let's hope that, you know, he can produce because this is pretty much why England are stuck with him and he's played well against Australia before. Joe Root has got to be a little bit careful of that back foot punch which is an England shot, English shot, you know, probably on slower, lower wickets that he, he likes to force through the offside. But he's gonna have to be really clinical around that fourth stump, fifth stump area which normally Hazelwood would be probing. But I don't know who that, who's going to do that for Australia now. But he, he's going to have to watch that error because he likes to play away from his body and sometimes run the ball down the third man. Brook is an interesting one because, you know, from all reports in the practice game, you know, he faced 16 balls, every ball was an event. Had a couple of run down the wickets and a scoop and all sorts. So he can be a little skittish at times. And Australia roughed him up at Lords. He has got out to the, the pool shot a little bit. He will be tested, I think, but he, but if he comes through that he's got the game to take, to take the, the, the, the sort of innings or to take the initiative for England. So all these guys are going to have to go about, they're going to have to find their own way about how they're going to counter the bounce in those first 20 to 30 balls of their innings. And I think once they go, once they do that, then absolutely, if they adjust, they can enjoy themselves batting on the pit. The light will be great. You know, it'd be fantastic whether you can see the ball really well and you can enjoy playing your cut and pull shots as long as you just, you know, get the hang of that extra bounce.

Jack, how much notice do you think Ben Stokes will pay to the fact that. And you've got to win the toss for this to matter clearly. But five tests played at that new stadium, all the teams that won the toss back first and won. Is he going to be bothered about that? Is he going to think about that? Because it's not necessarily in his nature to do that.

I hope he's bothered about that. That's quite a good stat. But I guess it depends on various things of weather, but I imagine the Perth weather is pretty consistent and it's going to be hot for five days. But yeah, I'd imagine he'd want to have a bat with those stats. But I don't know. What do you think?

I have to say I felt it was much more important to go out and look at the wicket two Days beforehand, a day, and then on the morning of the game and you play what's in front of you. So, you know, if Ben Stokes feels that there's a little bit of moisture in there, you know, he's not afraid to have a bowl and let his fast bowlers loose, he'll have every confidence in that attack. I mean, I think Bride and Carlson Atkinson are excellent bowlers and if, you know, Archer should join them. So. And Ben himself, let's not forget. So I think if he feels that there's a little moisture in there and he wants to take advantage of that first up, you know, he won't be afraid to do it. And I don't mind that because I think it plays. You play what's in front of you on the morning of the game, what the conditions are like. And then, you know, this such is the way, the clarity that England have about the way they want to go about their business, you know, once that decision is made, they're all in. They're going to be right behind the captain and they'll make it work.

Yeah. He doesn't strike me, Ryan, as a man who will be told what to do by anybody else. I mean, as coach, you could probably answer that question better than anybody.

Yeah, yeah. Now there's, you know, if you, if you come up with a good theory, as long as you present your facts, so to speak. But yeah, it's an interesting one because, you know, I just said a minute ago, those first two hours are going to be really tough. But my next point was going to be, but if you got some courage, you need to bat first. In Perth, because of the nature of the drop in wicket, it actually does start to go up and down towards day three and four and five. And now, again, I'm not a stats person, I got a bloke who does all that for me and hands it to me. But I would have thought Nathan Lyons numbers over in some of those Test wins in Perth on the stadium are very, very good because he likes the bounce of it and it does start to spin later on in the game. So. And throw into the fact that again, apart from us being brought up not liking England, we're brought up, we bat first, we look at the wicket and we don't care, we're going to bat first. We generally, that's how we play our cricket. We bat first, we control the game, and then we try and bowl you out on the last day with a good spinner. That's. I know that's a bit generic, but that's generally what Australia like to do. So whoever wins the toss, yeah, it's going to be an interesting one because like you say, Stokes loves to chase. And you know what, if they play Will Jax as the spinner, you know now what they're going to do. They have to bat last and they have to chase. That almost gives it away, I would have thought.

29 wickets for Nathan Lyon, 5 Tests average of 20 at Perth, by the way.

I thought it was pretty good.

Yeah, not bad. I'm gonna stop doing numbers soon because I started this hour and. You heard me, Jack. I was, I mean, I was right up there, right up there. Now we've just done Nathan Lyon's numbers at Perth. Now I'm gonna mention the fact that day night Tests for Australia, 1 12, lost one in Australia, day nighter at the Gabba, second Test, which probably we would have spoken about a lot more if it wasn't for the kind of the intrigue of starting in Perth. But you know, Mitchell Stark, pink ball, absolutely phenomenal. I mean, that is some spectacle.

Two of my memories from the last series over there was how difficult a start Gabba was and the pink ball test, how difficult that was against Starks. So they're kind of bringing those together. I don't know if that's a positive for England because actually you can only lose one once against the slightly negative way of looking at it, but that'll be an amazing. Is it ever been, have they ever had one a pink ball game at the Gabba?

No.

No. So, yeah, it's gonna be quality to watch that and yeah, I'm excited to see what, what the pink ball does in that twilight period at Brisbane because there's enough most of the time.

Yeah.

I mean, all five tests, obviously we could talk about them all and the cities and the stadiums, but those two in particular, absolutely mouth watering. We're going to talk about leadership. We'll do the pace attack, we're going to do more around Nathan Lyon. We'll also talk Josh Hazelwood as well, of course. Let's talk Ben Stokes then. And you all know him, you've all worked with him in such different ways, which makes the discussion all the more interesting. Jack obviously played with him. He's been your captain, Mark, from working with him at England and Ryan is his coach. So first things first. Ryan, and this is one that really only you are qualified to answer. Will Australia target him because he's England captain and whoever is England captain, you must target.

They'll target him as in try and Knock him over with the bat, I would have thought. And you know, I think they'll target him because he's the best player and that's no disrespect to anyone else, but Ben Stokes changes the whole of England. If he gets injured early, which I hope he doesn't because I want to see the best players playing in a great Test series. England's side changes dramatically. And although it might be the fact that Will Jax is on tour, maybe that's the reasoning behind that for, I guess, a similar all rounder type. But, you know, the facts are Ben Stokes as a cricketer, I've been asked this a couple of times and I've said the same thing. I was lucky enough to play in a time of a golden era in Australian cricket and I played with some of the greatest of WA's in Mike Hussey, Justin Langer and Damian Martine and Adam Gilchrist. Those four blokes were the hardest working guys I've ever seen. You know, I'll admit it, I was a bit lazy, I was a bit, you know, carefree and casual and this, that and the other. But those four blokes put themselves through hell and back to prepare for Test cricket. Ben Stokes works harder than them. And that to me is like, whoa. You know, the injuries are well documented. But what you don't see is I remember when he had that, I think the second hamstring surgery. I walked past our gym, I think it was two days later and there's a bloke sitting in the corner doing somebody bicep pull downs or something. And I thought, that can't be. And I literally walked in and said, what the hell are you doing in here? He goes, mate starts now. And off he went. And he just started working and working and you know, I, I see what he puts his body through to try and be prepared to do a role that is, let's all agree, you know, I'm a wiki. I'm always going to say the wiki's the toughest spot. But let's be honest, batters and spinners just, they just rock up and bowl, you know, a couple of steps, they're pretty easy. But, but let's be honest, bowling fast and batting and being in, you know, Gunfield and all that, mate, the all rounders are the hardest job to be. It's why everyone would pay a million bucks for them. I would go out and, you know, spend. You talk about value for money, they're it. And that's why we always talk about it. That's why England treasure Andrew Flintoff. They treasure Ian Botham. That's why Australia treasure Andrew Flintoff and Ian Botham, because we think they're awesome. You know, we haven't really needed one of late or of the. In the 90s, throughout the 2000s because we had four great bowlers. We didn't need an all rounder because Warnee would either get you out or McGraw would get you out. It was pretty easy. But that true genuine all rounder is. It changes teams. It's why Australia will do move heaven and earth to make sure Cameron Green plays in these test matches. As long as he's bowling, he changes us as well. And he'll bat at number six and he'll bowl. He bowled well in the. He bowled eight overs in each innings at the last game at the Wacker and looked like he bowled quite fast. Mate, can't buy them off a shelf. So, yeah, my, my honest hand on heart, the hardest working guy I've ever seen in, in a cricket shed.

Do you think that Ben Stokes might come to be viewed in Australia in the same way then as some of those absolute grit that you've just mentioned?

Mate, he's a Kiwi, so we would adopt him because he's Russell Crowe and in excess, split ends, they were for the Kiwis.

Isn't your country big enough just to claim your own?

I think Phar Lap was New Zealand horse, but we claim that as well. But you know, in all honesty, if you were at a pub, right, take, take the jesting aside, we're all, we've all done it, we've had a beer and, you know, we're, you know, I say I'm a better football manager than Pep Guardiola, even though I don't even know. I call it soccer and I don't even know what it's about. But, you know, I've had a couple and I think I'm better than him. But when people in Australia, hand on heart, when they start to talk about Ben Stokes, they'll go, ah, yeah, this bloke. But then they'll all say, wouldn't he be cool if he was an Aussie? And that's the ultimate, I guess, accolade from an Australian. When they start looking at the opposition, go, geez, he could be Aussie. You know, he's that one. And because I think there is a true respect of that man, of what he does and how he plays the.

Game, that Jack Leitch is the ultimate compliment, isn't it?

Yeah, no, definitely. Especially those four guys you mentioned. And yeah, I think I would back that up massively. The last few years, I think he's been through some tough injuries and I think that's made him sort of really focus in on his fitness and.

You.

Know, he's always been the hardest worker in terms of, in the nets and I think it's an understanding where he knows where he's going to take his mind to in the game and how much he's going to put his body through because of that. So there's that understanding that he needs to prep in the right way. And yeah, I think the last few years he's been an absolute beast and yeah, he has gone to different levels with that and yeah, it's just great. I think when you see your leader kind of finding new ways to, to get better and when you're already that good and I think it kind of, if you're another, if you're serving his team and playing under him, you sort of think, well, if he's good doing that, then, you know, we all need to step up and, and, and try and get better as well. So, yeah, he's, he's brilliant, brilliant leader to kind of play under, I think.

Mark, there's also an interesting question here around that. That physique of Ben Stokes and what I mean by that is, you know, I remember the first time I saw Erling Haaland in person. Nothing can kind of prepare you for that. You know, he's a big guy, but when you see him in person, it's, it's striking. Even someone like Antoine Dupont, who obviously doesn't have that tall physical stature, he has that broadness, you can't really get a proper appreciation for it without seeing him in person. Is that also true of Ben Stokes? Do you kind of have to be up close to realize the kind of specimen that he actually is physically?

Well, he's not Anthony Joshua, that is for sure.

It wouldn't help him if he was though, would he?

No. Well, it might help his bowling because Anthony Joshua is quite tall. But I think, look, as hard as he works, he has to work hard because he's not as robust as perhaps some other bowlers. And why I say that is because he's had some serious injuries, so he's had to work really hard and it's a credit to his attitude that he's worked so hard to get back fit. But somebody needs to keep an eye on him because he likes to bowl these long spells when the ball's not doing too much. And he can pay the price. And I absolutely agree with Ryan. You know, look, if Ben Stokes plays these five tests, I think England win and I think they win quite comfortably. But he does balance the side and if he's not there, then there is a, there is a little bit, there is a vacuum quite clearly. I mean, my journey with Ben started on an England A tour way back about 2013. Ben was a young man and we went to Australia on a one day tour and Ben only lasted two days. He came back from a night out in the early hours and it got back to the management and he was sent home. But you know, he also has got his first test hundred in Perth, came back, you know, with the first team and he's always had this competitive attitude throughout his whole career. He's always backed himself in a sort of an UN English way, I suppose you could say. And he's been through so many experiences personally. I mean he actually missed, missed the Ashes trip that I did as a coach because of the Bristol nightclub incident and, but you know, and the public humiliation of that and everything he went through emotionally. And when he came back, you know, it took him a while to find his feet again. But because he realized he was so lucky to be playing international cricket and it had almost been taken away from him. I think those experiences as a bloke have given him great empathy. Now he's in this leadership role and he has been doing wonderfully well as a leader for a number of years. His teammates really, he seems to connect with them. He seems to really connect with his teammates. He knows how difficult he is to be an international cricketer. He knows what the schedule's like, how the margins between success and failure are so tight and he gives them his full backing and he's got great empathy to understand the ups and downs and you know, if he is not playing, even if he's in the dressing room, but if he's not playing out in the middle to make those decisions, to know when to back his bowlers, to when to attack, you know, maybe when to consolidate. You know, that is a massive vacuum for England.

Last one on Ben Stokes then. Ryan. I just want to double check that you second what Mark said. If he plays all five Ashes Tests, then England win comfortably, mate.

I think if you, if he plays all five then you know, you reduce the defeat by at least one.

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Still with us, we've got England spinner Jack Leach. We've got former England battermark Ramprakash, former Aussie wicketkeeper Ryan Campbell as well. And just because we didn' Ryan to feel outnumbered, let's bring in Australian cricket writer Jeff Lemon. Hello, Geoff.

Good evening. Nice to meet you.

How are we all? Good.

Getting ready. I think we're winding up limbering up. It's going to be a long few weeks ahead, so you've got to make sure that the aches and pains are all taken care of before you get going.

Well, you're only limbering up. We're an hour in, so we're right in the middle of our first spell. We're loving life. You just joined us, Jeff, at the perfect time, actually. Cause we've just been talking about England pace, bowling, England leadership, and we're now going to get onto Australia through the same means. So we'll talk about Josh Hazelwood being out and his injury in a second. But of course, one thing that we do know which is relevant to both leadership and the Australian bowling attack is the lack of Pat Cummins. So Cummins being out is obviously was always going to be an issue. Jeff does the absence of Hazelwood, though, that kind of exacerbates it doesn't.

Multiplies it. That's the word by such a number. It's maybe it's logarithmic, I don't know. The mathematicians out there can can tell me it's exponential, I think because losing one of the main three fast bowlers, whoever it might may be, is a big deal. You know, Cummins the plan was always that he would still be around the squad so he'd be there in person to help him with the, the kind of off field stuff and to give off field leadership as a, a captain in waiting, as it were, you know, waiting to come back to the main job. But two of the three, you know, Australia have dealt with with losing one of those three bowlers relatively often when they've needed to. Scott Bollocks filled in without any problems as recently as taking a hat trick in Jamaica not that long ago. So that hasn't been an issue. But when you've lost them both and you've lost Cummins and Hazelwood, the two right armors, the ones whose, whose job it is to maintain control and Mitchell Stark's quite a different kind of bowler, you know, very successful bowler at the other end. But you've lost the two who are closer in terms of style. I suppose they've both gone. And then you've got Scott Boland having to step up to, you know, not being the third replacement but being the second. You know, whether he takes the new ball or not will be interesting. And potentially a debut player in Brendan Doggett. It's a massive fifth in the power structure.

Jeff, where are you?

I'm in Perth at the moment.

What time is it in Perth?

It is ten past four in the morning.

Are you mad?

Yeah, well, kinda.

Jeff.

I love it for a living.

Yes, honestly, I would, I would never have known in your. You are. Have you been to sleep? Are you going to sleep? What's the plan?

Yeah, I have been and I plan to go again but at the moment.

What a guy.

Everything's all over the place. The time zones are weird. I only got here a couple of days ago actually came from London which was freezing and miserable. So I'm happy to be here whether I'm awake at 4:00am or not.

Yeah, fair point. Manchester very much the same at the moment. Well, Jeff's already, already player of the match for the first Test. Just based on that, I think I feel like we should go in Jack on Hazelwood here because it is the newsiest thing and you actually said right at the top of the shot, you know, there won't be any kind of from the England camp, any sort of. Yeah, well, you know, Australia is still a very dangerous side. They will very openly be, well celebrating this as much as you can for a, you know, a fellow professional who's, who's got an injury, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I don't know about celebrating.

Yeah, it's probably the wrong word.

Yeah, I think as fellow professionals you never want to see other guys get injured because you know how it feels. So I think they probably understand that, you know, if we were to lose two of our best bowlers then that would have a big effect on the team. So yeah, a lot of those batters have faced those two and had their struggles against them so that's got to be a good thing, I guess. But yeah, I think there's also knowing Ben Stokes and, and Baz, they want, they love entertaining cricket and, and I think they love the thought of two really good teams going up against each other so you know, start. I think Stokes in particular would probably be wanting to face like a full Australian full strength side and. But yeah, I think the individuals in that team will be probably feeling.

Good.

But then I think always as like an international cricketer, you know you've got to be on your game. It doesn't guarantee anything so you have to be on it and, and you, you can't really think about those things too much.

Yeah. And look, I suppose Mark it, it always depends on the severity of an injury. But there's, you know, it's, it's pointless to pretend, isn't it that it's anything other than a boost for England. Of course it is.

It's a huge boost, no question about it. And you know, everyone always talks about how important the first test is of a five test series away from home and the touring side will want to get off to a good start, get some momentum, build some confidence and they have the opportunity to do that unquestionably. I mean don't get me wrong, obviously these are very good cricketers that Australia have brought in. But the fact is is that their first choice, this big four bowling attack that have been together for so long and have been hugely successful, you know, two of them are missing and what that does is put a lot of pressure on the seamers because if they go at 4, 5 and over then Lathan Lyons role in the side is not quite the same. When you're coming on and the batters are feeling their way a little bit against a really good pace attack, they can play a bit differently. But you know, it could well be that England have got some momentum in their innings and they're looking at, you know, to, to keep that going against lion and I think they'll be very positive against him. So the whole dynamic changes. England have got a lot of test matches in their side. They're pretty settled team, you know, I mean 9 10, 11, 9 or 10 of the guys are pretty much fixed in the side. You look around that dressing room, England will feel confident and familiar with their teammates. Australia, anything. But, you know, they've got the opener potentially to come in. Batter, opening batter. Steve Smith has got a hell of a job on his hands as a leader to pull this group together very, very quickly. You know, yes, they're playing at home, but the fact is, as a group, they haven't gelled. And, you know, the, the roles in the bowling attack are so important. Hazelwood was, if I go back, was like a, like a McGraw. I compare him to a McGraw. Six foot five, accurate, bowls, long spells, you know, gives you nothing. What a, what an asset as a captain. To have that and then to take that away is a huge, huge blow because all captains like control. They like bowlers that give you control. And, you know, you know, Hazelwood, I mean, look, he also, I mean, they'll need him back because I think he can bowl very well with the pink ball as well. So, you know, from an Australian point of view, they'll be hoping it's just the one game on them.

On Steve Smith then, Jeff. And look, I've absolutely no interest in getting into a discussion about sandpaper gate. I'm sure none of us do, but I am kind of interested to know because in terms of his numbers, he actually has a better average as captain than when not captain since, you know, 20, 21, and when he's taken over as the interim captain whenever Pat Cummings isn't away. So that's incredibly impressive. But just in the role in general in, like the post sandpaper gate world, how is he sort of viewed when he is captain?

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I mean, there's a book on sandpaper gate if people want to go and read it. I wrote it.

What's it called?

I don't need to tell you about it now. Steve Smith's Men. There you go is the name of that. It's an interesting one. I think for the most part, you know, there are some people who, who are still exercised by this, but from an Australian perspective, he's had his penalties for that. He had his, his time in the sin bin and he's been yelled at enough. And people generally, generally seem to think, well, it's time to, to let it slide by and recognize that that's a long time ago. It's seven years back now. You know, there's a cohort of people who will tell you loudly, but he should never play for Australia. Again and so on. But for the most part, you know, the, the penalties were handed out and they were served and they were pretty heavy at the time, so. And Steve Smith now is a very different kind of person. I think he's a lot, obviously being that much older. He was a very immature captain and perhaps shouldn't have been considered for captaincy in the first place because, you know, he had a tendency to just do what people around him told him he should do. He would reflect whoever was in front of him. Whereas these days he's less obsessive about his cricket. He, he stops batting for, you know, a month or two at a time when he's, he's got time away from the game. He generally just seems to have a more balanced outlook on life that not everything is about this complete hyper focus on, on batting, which essentially stopped him from being able to perform adequately as a leader. And these days he's much more relaxed in his approach to it and he, he takes these temporary jobs as they are a job to do until Pat Cummins comes back. And whether that's one test or five tests, I think he'll have a lot more equanimity approaching it this time around.

Okay, so Ryan, the thing that links all of this together then. So you've got no Cummins, so Smith gets the captaincy. But also you've got the fact that obviously Cummins and Hazelwood don't play at all. So therefore you've got opportunities for Scott Boland and Brendan Doggett. And Doggett is someone you can give us some really interesting insight on because of course he played for Durham.

We had both of them, actually. Doggett and bowling.

Of course you did.

Yeah, we broke them both through.

Right.

So yeah, we've been great, it's been fantastic. But look, I think that they're both outstanding bowlers. The facts are that, you know, people are saying, well, Doggett, he's 31, he hasn't debuted and all that, but you know, we've seen history show Mike hussey debuted at 30. I think my old mate Marcus north debuted like Adam Voges debuted late. And I know they're batters, but the facts are that Brendan had his injury concerns early on in his career and he's bounced back and he's had consistent shield contributions over the last few years and he, he knows his game now and he's also a very laid back character. Like I know Australians, everyone thinks that we're all laid back, but then there's really laid back the Paul Rifle kind of ones. Generally country boys who, you know, they take everything in their stride. And yes, he's going to be nervous, don't get me wrong, but I think Brendan is one of those guys who's just going to take it in his stride. He knows his job, he knows what he has to do. And I just feel that there's a lot said. Don't get me wrong, do I want Hazelwood and Cummins in my team? Of course we do. But what happens if Australia get through the first Test, if they win, and then suddenly Cummins and Hazelwood are available? Are you going to tell me that England couldn't beat Australia without their best two, let alone when they come back? That's the concern for England. Don't, you know, miss the mark there. They have to win when those two are out, because if everyone comes back and then it's a real contest and, yeah, I think it's a great opportunity for both, especially Scotty Boland, because let's be honest here, mate, he's getting. I want to say. I don't want to say old in the tooth, but, you know, he's been. He's been a backup for so long. He's been. He's been a. The guy that has been the one who's always there. It's almost a little bit like, yeah, nessa was always 12th man. It was. It was Bickle in my time, always 12th man for Australia. But they had such a great attack, never quite got in it. So this Ashes tour is the greatest opportunity for Scotty Boland because, mate, when Australia starts to look to the next bit, because, let's be honest, for two and a half years, England have recreated their team. They were really. Not really bad, but they were pretty bad. Two and a half, three years ago, they weren't anywhere in the World championship title race. McCollum comes in and he changes things. Little bit of different personnel. They didn't have to go from scratch, but they've changed the whole way. They wanted to play, but they brought in different people and they've been able to invest time in those sort of guys. But in the same period, Australia have been the number one. They've won the World Test Championship, then they lost the World Test. They won World Cups in the white ball format. So they've been on the top of the mountain for a period of time. When you're at the top, sometimes you don't have time to look for seeing what's coming next. It's very hard to get these younger guys in because you're about to win a World cup or you're about to win the World Test Championship. So now the next bit is going to be tough for Australia. Australian cricket's about to go through a massive change and, you know, but. But they only need a couple more years. Stark has declared I'm not playing T20s. I want to play two more years. That's when the next generation will come. And I just think Scotty Boland is one of those ones that may not be around because they need the next generation to come through. So I think he knows that and I reckon he's going to have an absolutely magnificent Ashes series and I reckon Doggett's going to surprise a few as well.

Wow. Okay. Hey, Jack, fancy a chat about spinners?

Yeah, go on then.

What's it like? What's it like as a spinner in Australia?

I found it very tough. Yeah, I think obviously different wickets, different ball. So, yeah, it was, it was tough, I think, but like, there's still, you know, you watch Nathan Lyon bowl and I'm a big admirer of him and, and look up to him a lot and, and what he does and, you know, I think if you, if you're getting over the top of the ball and getting top spin on the ball, like, you know, you can get bounce. And I love what Nathan Lyon has done over, over years and years. It's like, it's quite a simple plan, I think, and. But it's. It's how good his stockball is and how. How well he can bowl that and, yeah, I guess, and bold to his plan and he keeps it simple and does a great job. So I think that's the key in Australia.

And.

Yeah. Yeah.

Is there anything unique about it versus any other country?

I think from all the places, I mean, New Zealand, I think, is that you want to bowl in a similar style. I don't know. I've had a little bit more success in New Zealand, but I'd say the biggest thing I learned out there was sort of the type of spin that you're getting on the ball maybe compared to here in England, where you can go a bit more side spin and get that natural variation. So, yeah, I think you've really got to try and extract bounce and. And get your wickets in a little bit of a different way. And yeah, I think every ground's slightly different as well, so you're trying to adjust to that. There's wind to maybe deal with in some grounds. So, yeah, just. Just different. It felt very different to bowling in England.

I think of all the people involved in this series, the one tonight that I was the most kind of looking forward to discussing is probably Nathan Lyon. So given Jack has opened the door wide, let's do that. Firstly, Mark, in, in your previous capacity with England, how would you have been helping prepare people for Nathan Lyon?

Well, I think that, you know, the spinners will always talk about wanting bounce and in Australia there's plenty of bounce. Having said that, that from a batting point of view, I was always quite happy to have bounce. What the reason why is that I could camp on the back foot and I didn't want to be prodding forward to length deliveries, bringing in short leg and slip and I would be quite happy to stay on the back foot and play from there. And then of course they've got to come Fuller. Nathan Line gets really good bounce. He bowls at a good pace so he's not the easiest necessarily to get down the wicket, wicket. But I do think you can play him off the back foot. But as I mentioned earlier, you know, he, I did see him operate round the wicket into sort of that hip with a short leg and leg slip and sort of cramping the right handers and you know, that can certainly do a holding role. But you know, another element to the spin bowling is caused the drift. You know, when we used to play at the wacker, there was that breeze that used to come across the ground and you know, whether you're a swing bowler or a spinner, you know, using that, that breeze to help your drift or your swing is a huge element. And you know, when one talks about drift, you know, you think of Sean Shane Warne bowling the ball halfway down the wicket and it's sort of swinging into the right hander's leg stump and then turning across, well, Nython Lyon, of course, you know, if there's that advantage, you know, to get the ball up in the air and to have it move in the air and then spin back is a huge weapon for the spinner. So he'll, you know, that's something that, you know, I don't know whether there's a cross breeze at the stadium, but if there is, you know, that will be an important element for the spinner as well.

I think. Jeff, for me it's just because how, how many players in Ash's history have had absolutely, you know, bona fide iconic Ash's moments both at the extreme joyous end and the extreme despair end. So you've got, you know, Nathan Lyon is batting on one leg at Lourdes. Lourdes gives Him a standing ovation. I know that meant a lot to him. On the other side of it, the moment at Headingley where he effectively, you know, drops the Ashes trying to run out. It was a spinner wearing glasses, can't remember his name. Who could it have been? Was it. But you know what I mean, Jeff? I mean, I mean, just that alone must put him really high up if you were going to do a list of iconic Ashes cricketers. Iconic moments. Nathan Lyon is there.

Yeah. There was never a single there, Jack. We could all see that watching. On my word, I think this will be his eight bashes. Off the top of my head, Nathan Lyon, he's been around since 2013 in that series. I mean, he was getting left out of the side in 2013 in England, which is unthinkable now. They brought Ashton Agar in as a spectator, which worked with the bat, but not with the ball. So I suppose when you've had a career that's so long, your chances of being involved in those sort of moments increases. There are so many sort of Nathan Lyon oddities in that career. That 2013-14 series, when he wasn't dismissed across the entire series, somehow managed to end up not out every time he batted the. I'm remembering him at Hobart hooking Mark Wood over the pavilion, out into the street for six. You know, he's had extraordinary moments with bat and ball, and I don't know, he's such a kind of, I suppose, modest in terms of the ability, you know, not so much in terms of personality, but where you've got a player like Shane Warren, who everybody idolizes and looks up to. Nathan Lyons, a very different sort of operator. He's an off spinner. He's got an average in the 30s, not in the 20s, but he's just been so consistent. And it's that holding job that he does. If you look at his numbers in Australia, he's played almost the same number of tests where he's bowling in the first innings of the. Of the match rather than the second. So in the. Sorry. In the third or fourth match innings, but he gives away so few runs. He does a holding job. He goes for fewer than three runs and over in the first or second innings of the four, and has picked up almost as many wickets bowling first as he has bowling second, but has done it while bowling a lot more overs. So they really rely on him during that first team innings to be the one to. To keep control and keep tempo. And that's why, as was identified a bit earlier, there's an opportunity for England to really mess with Australia if they go after Lyon early and if they're able to get away with it. But he won't necessarily mind that because he has, he has players go after him a lot and he's been pretty good at being able to defend against that sort of approach.

Jack, what is it like to go in the space of half a second from knowing you're involved in an all time low Ashes moment to knowing you're now involved in an all time High Ashes moment?

Yeah, I think it taught me about how much luck plays a part in sport. And, yeah, I was gonna be an absolute villain and ended up a bit of a hero. So, yeah, I've got Nathan Lyon to thank for that. And I did say that to him when I was walking out at Manchester the next game and everyone was standing up shouting, like drinking out their shoe for me or something. I can't remember why, but. And yeah, I walked past Lyon and I said, I think I owe you a beer. And he said, you owe me a whole case, mate. Yeah, he took it well. But, yeah, it was quite a moment and it kind of ruins it for me. I can't really watch it because I remember that, like, really, it. I should. It shouldn't have panned out how it did, but.

No, come on, you can't say that, surely.

It's just. It's just the way I see it. But, yeah, I. I mean, to start with, I can watch it now and now I can. I can sort of view it. But yeah, it was a scary moment in the time and I remember Stokesy having to sort of. I was shaking and I had sweat on my glasses and I was trying to clean them and yeah, it was all a bit of a panic moment, but yeah, managed to get through it.

You batted absolutely immensely, Jack. Don't let that sort of inner voice say anything else. The funny thing about this, Ryan, is after all this kind of eulogizing over Nathan Lyon, I was reading former captain Mark Taylor's comments about the prospect of dropping Nathan Lyon at Perth. The argument being that if you go for an all rounder like Cam Green and you bolster the batting depth and therefore the seam bowling options, where does that leave him? But he's got a play, hasn't he, mate?

Old Tubby's trying to get another click bait or whatever he wants to know. But no, but the interesting one is, does he play at the Gabba? Because traditionally he's had a very good record at the Gabba. But again, if you're having a pink ball Test match at the Gabba, mate, that's only going three and a half days, four days at best. And he didn't play the last one in the West Indies on that, you know, dodgy wicket. And they changed it and, you know, they. They left him out there. So he's playing 100% in Perth. My question is the Gabbard and will they, you know, decide to go all pace attack, you know, with the pink ball? Because that's the one that I think, you know, if he's going to miss, he's going to miss there, then he's going to play the other three. But, yeah, it's a big, big question to sort of leave out a Nathan line and, you know, with his record, and I know Jeff was, you know, talking about how great he's been for Australia, really. I think if you put into context every other spinner that's toured Australia, I think the record together, their average is horrendous. It's close to 50 if you put all the spinners that ever tour Australia. So that just shows you how hard it is to actually, as a finger spinner or as a spinner, to come to grips with Australia. I know Warnee made it easy for everyone and probably put every spinner under the bus, really, with what he did.

But.

But, you know, Australian conditions generally, it is hard to be a spinner and, you know, Nathan has been one of the greats. We know that. Before that, you know, you could probably. No disrespect to the spinners, but, you know, you're talking about maybe five or six in the history of the game that has done really, really well in Australia. So it's a tough thing to do. And your bloke, if it's Shah Bashir, who's a youngster, who, if he's given that opportunity, and don't get me wrong, I love seeing youngsters given a chance. And, you know, they purposely picked him for literally a couple of years to play in Australia. If you suddenly don't play Bashir, what does that say? Have you just. Old mate sort of sitting down there in Somerset's probably wasted two years of his Test career because he's the best spinner in England. Without a doubt, what I've seen. But they've purposely picked Bashir to be at that drop and all that. So if they change tack and say, no, no, we're not playing a spinner now, I think that's a bit of a U turn, which I. I didn't really See Coming.

Yeah. Listen, Jack, I know it's obviously tough for you. We're absolutely over the moon that we've got you and obviously we all know that you would have daily loved to be there. But, you know, while we're talking about, about spinballing, we talk about the England side of it. Obviously no one is going to want to see them succeed than you do.

No.

Yeah.

I think, like, in terms of the spin that's out there, I think I've worked a little bit with Bash over the last couple of years and I saw him playing well probably three, four years ago, a second team game for Somerset and, and thought quite highly of him and, you know, in terms of the attributes he has for Australian conditions, I can like, really see how, how that fits. And yeah, I hope he does really well and he's a great lad and someone who I classed as a friend, so really want him to do well. And, and I think Jaxy, like, is a really good pick also. I mean, it gives you a different dynamic if you want to go down a different, slightly different balanced team, I guess, and hit them with a bit more batting. And I also think from working with Jaxy, he came on a tour to Pakistan, got six for on debut. He's a really good bowler and, and I think if he wasn't so good at smacking it out the ground in T20 cricket, he would have played a lot more longer format cricket and, and bowled a lot more for Surrey. And I think in terms of how he delivers the ball with that overspin, he has those skills as well. So obviously in terms of the amount of bowling those two have got, is, is not, not the same as a Nathan line. But yeah, I think in terms of how their skills fit for the, for the conditions, they, They've picked quite smart in terms of. In terms of that.

Yeah, look, I think it says a, a massive amount about you, Jack, that you're, you know, that you feel that way. And I wonder if I'm gutted as well. I know you are. I know you are. Of course you are. Has it, has it in any small way helped with the personal disappointment that, you know, you have put that work in to try and help these guys, especially Sherry Bashir, to become the players that they are becoming?

Ah, well, I mean, the way I think is, I wouldn't say I've had a lot to do with that, but if I have, then that's great. Yeah. I mean, I pride myself on trying to be a good team man and whoever I'm playing for. So, so that's really important to me and yeah, so, so hopefully that is the case and. But I still have my aspirations and you know, I've signed a three year contract with, with Somerset, so I still feel I have those aspirations to kind of improve my game and get back to playing, playing for England. So whether that happens or not, I don't know. But I will definitely be, be trying.

Yeah. Well, good on you. And also I think we should say as well, Jeff, that there's, you know, this might not be Nathan Lyons last Ashes, by the way, 18 months.

I wouldn't think so.

Wouldn't rule it out.

I wouldn't think so. I mean, well, look, he's, he's, he's somebody who I like. He didn't expect to be playing for Australia. You go back to 2013 when he still has hair and it's quite, it's quite strange watching the old clip clips because, you know, he's a very different seeming type. But he's so shy. He was so lacking in confidence. It took him years to, to be able to believe that he was in the Australian team. And now he's, he's, he's reached that point where he's, he's settled, he's confident in the job that he does. I don't think he ever wants to stop playing for Australia. I think they'll carry him out of that dressing room basically, if they keep picking him, he'll keep showing up. There's no everybody else. You can see an exit point. You can see where they might say, well, I've played enough. I, I've, I've had my successes. He'll play for five more years if they let him and the body holds up. So yeah, coming back to England is definitely one. I think there is still that sense of unfinished business for a bunch of those players. Having drawn the last couple of series in England, they really want to win a series outright. Whether that gets Steve Smith back another time is another question too. But broadly overall, the, like I was saying before, the point of Lyon is that he's so central. You can talk about like Ryan was talking about whether he would miss out on a pink ball test. He's got the second most wickets ever in pink pole cricket. He played every day, night test that Australia had played up until the one in Jamaica. So he's somebody who, regardless of the changes in format and the changes in venue, has been such a consistent pick for Australia. I think the fact that they left him out in Jamaica was really that they were looking at A game that they could maybe win in two days and just get it over and done with, get on the plane home. So I'm confident that he will play every test during this summer. I think that regardless, they like to have that option. They like to have the change in bowling. They've got the extra sema with Green as long as he's fit to bowl. So you want, you want one other type of bowler to be able to change things up and that'll be what Lyon's able to offer.

We should also say happy birthday for Thursday to Nathan Lyon, when he will be 38. And I know we all agree that we hope that that's the only good day he has this week. We're down to Almost the last 20 minutes. As far as I'm concerned. It's not an Ashes series if we don't hear from Jimmy Anderson. So let's talk about some English pace attack and hear from the Tail Enders podcast to simply the best to ever do it.

Well, I think that could be one telling part of the whole series. If England are going to win this series or have a chance, then the bowling attack has got to be relentlessly good because I think the pictures will have a little bit of movement in them they have done in the last two tours. We've been there. So you do need accuracy as well as pace and I know it's great to watch. There'll be some spells, I'm sure where we're watching, thinking this is amazing with Joffre Arch or Mark Wood, especially Perth, the first test where it's, you know, notoriously bouncy and quick. So there could be some amazing spells in, in the games, but I think you do still need that element of accuracy. And I can't see Archer and Wood playing too many games together. I think if you're going to play them together, potentially the first test at Perth where it's fast and bouncy, you want to get off to a good start in the series. So hit them like straight away with proper pace. But then after that I imagine they'll try and play one of them and rest and recover the other. So then I think that leaves space for. If they play together, then obviously there's one more and Stokes. So it potentially would be a Briding cast or a Gus Atkinson bride and cast, probably the slightly quicker of the two getting towards 90 miles an hour, but they've got skill as well and probably a bit more control than the others. So I feel like they could play a big or they're going to have to play a big part in, especially if they rotate in Wood and Archer.

That's Jimmy Anderson speaking to Greg James and Felix White on the Tail Enders podcast. You can listen to and watch Tail Enders throughout the Ashes. They'll be doing a reaction podcast to every test on BBC Sounds iPlayer and BBC Sports YouTube channel. So there ramps. We got a clear indication of the whole England pace attack from Jimmy. How are you feeling about it going into the first Test, then?

I remain punchy, as I said at the top of the program. I think England have got an excellent, excellent chance. And a big reason is the fact that I think over the last two years I've been hugely impressed with Atkinson and Cars. I think that they are slightly different bowlers, both good pace, but Atkinson, I think can swing the ball and he can swing the kookaburra and he bowls a slightly fuller length, whereas cast big, strong hit the pitch. So if I look back at my career, I remember Damien Fleming being a very, very fine bowler who used to bowl a fuller length than, say, Gillespie or McGrath. And he was very difficult to play because he'd get you coming forward and lots of his deliveries would be hitting the top of the stumps. I think Atkinson can bowl in a similar way, maybe slightly quicker than. Than Damien. But then you look at Carson, he might be comparable to, say, something like a. Gillespie hits. Hits the pitch hard. You know, if there's any uneven bounce there, he will find it. Both. Both guys have been pretty robust, you know, and I think for me, they're the first two bowlers on the team sheet. And I know that may surprise some people, but I think the way that they played away from home for England, they've shown themselves to be adaptable and reliable. And then you throw into the mix, you know, an Archer and Wood. I. I wouldn't play both of them in the same team, I have to say.

Even for the first Test.

No, absolutely. I wouldn't play both of them. To me, it's too big, too big a risk. Risk. I. I think Archer right now is ahead of Wood because he's got overs under his belt and, you know, there's. I think he's probably, you know, he's had more cricket and he's. He's bowled. He's bowled pretty well, hasn't he? Without necessarily having, you know, loads of wickets. But he's a handful and, you know, England will obviously be hoping he's a bit of an X factor. Of course, you've still got to move the ball Laterally, you know, you, you can be quick 90 miles an hour, but if the pitches are good and you don't have that little bit of lateral movement to defeat the top batters in the world. So, you know, sometimes you feel like Archer, he doesn't necessarily do loads with the ball, but he certainly expressed pace. So you know, I think those three for me and then, you know, any, any of the others. Tongue. Tongue won't let England down, I don't think. You know, again, tall, accurate, gets a bit of bounce. But those three for me would be the front three. And then you, you put Ben in there. I mean Ben Stokes was only Old Trafford, wasn't he? He got five for in 100. You know, what an amazing all rounder he is. Obviously he's the leader of the plaque, but his own individual game is, is very much in order. He bowled really well in the warm up game. So I think those four seamers that I've named will be a real handful.

Do you know Ryan, what, what Mark was saying there kind of leads nicely into some, some Steve Smith quotes which actually it took me a little while to work out exactly what he was saying the other day when he was asked about the England pace attack. But along the lines of what Mark was saying about, you know, it isn't just about being super quick. He said effectively he was asking the question, Steve Smith, whether England might have got it wrong by going with so much speed. This is the quote. Sometimes the slower guys are almost harder to play on these wickets where you have to make take the pace. But yeah, we'll wait and see. So Ryan, is that him saying that because he knows his attack doesn't have the same pace as England's or is he just trying to sort of get in the heads a little bit maybe to try and make England's pace bowlers almost try and bowl too quickly to add a bit of emotion into it.

Well, for sure you gotta, you gotta nip away at the opposition, that's for sure. I think we've established that. But you know, the Sheffield Shield wicket have changed a lot over the last couple of years in Australia. Someone like a Fergus o' Neill has been outstanding for Victoria and we saw him at Nottingham and his pace is, oh, late 120s, maybe early 130s and nips around. I noticed that the wicket keeper was up to the stumps the other day, you know, in the second innings and he's not ever spoke well, he's been mentioned in passing but, but the comments are that maybe he doesn't bowl fast enough now that might change but he's the sort of guy that's bowling a lot of overs in Sheffield Shield cricket and taking a lot of wickets. So I can see where Smith is coming from. And you know I was loving listening to Mark. Talk about pace isn't everything. Australia are bought up on pace. You'd still got to swing the ball or move the ball and that's the big difference difference between the kookaburra ball and the jukes ball. What, what can you do with that Kookaburra ball? So look, I'm, I'm really impressed with the England attack. I think Josh Tongue has come on in leaps and bounds over these last two years and is a brilliant backup. I, I agree with Mark. Bryden Cass has become the most important sort of cog in, in the machine of England at the minute. I know that Stokes, he loves him because he gives his always wholehearted effort, will run in all day and try and bowl fast and try and move the ball. So he has become an international cricketer and let's, let's not beat around the bush. Carsey had some dark moments over the last couple of years but he's found his way out and Ben Stokes is a big reason for that and he's playing in all formats. So I think Kass is a big part of that. That and I agree. I love Mark Wood. He hasn't played since February so he bowled eight overs in the, in the warm up game and felt some hamstring soreness. I, I guess there's going to be that wonder until he plays a game. I don't, I'll be honest, I haven't even looked at England's schedule. I don't even know if there is a game that he can play. I think it's the prime minister's 11 or something. But I just wonder if they have to see him out in the middle. I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. But if anyone can bowl fast with a limited and I've seen his preparation at times when he's come back, it's that bloke because he does find a way to bowl fast. So look, England have what they need. It's what they've wanted. They wanted an arsenal of fast bowlers and they've got that now they just all have to bowl.

Well Jack, I certainly won't be the guy to say to Mark, well and Joffre Archer. Yeah but all you can do is bull really fast. That's it.

No.

Yeah, that's but then that's one of the best batters in the world. So I guess it's.

He's allowed.

Yeah, he's allowed, yeah. And it's different for him. He's probably looking forward to it. But. Yeah, no, I'd agree with everything the guys have said. I think what they've done well over England, have done well over the last couple of years is kind of give those guys a number of games. So it feels, as an England fan, you feel comfortable with any kind of combination that they go with with those seamers. I do wonder whether if they were. If they were looking at the wicket and it was particularly green and they felt like a spinner wasn't going to bowl many overs, whether they would go four seamers and then hit them with Wood and Archer in the, in the first Test. And then you've got. Got Stokes as well. So you've got the five seamers. Maybe if it's. If Woody's not quite right, whether he'll play in a Lions game, there's. I think Lions have got a couple more games over there, so that could be a use of games where he can actually get some cricket and build that confidence before he maybe comes into it second or third Test. So I think they've got options and yeah, it's going to be exciting to see what they go with.

Options is also the word, Jeff, for Australia's decisions at the top of their order. But it's a slightly different discussion. It's. It's not about cherry picking who is the absolute best here from an embarrassment of riches. It's more complicated than that, isn't it?

It's a lot more complicated than that because really, really strong contenders have been thin on the ground in, in Australian domestic cricket for a few seasons for that job. Job. There have been the players who've done that before, like Bancroft and Renshaw and so on, but who. Who haven't put together big streaks of scoring at the right times. The fact that Sam Cox just got picked last summer was emblematic of the fact that there were not obvious options. You know, that was a total hunch based on the fact that he made twin hundreds in one shield game. They were the only first class hundreds of his career though. And he was picked on that basis to come in and try to disrupt Jasper Bumero during that opening spell. And yes, it worked for a test match of the mcg and things very rapidly got a lot harder for Sam Constance and he's back on the outer now, although he's in that PM's 11 squad. So it's given the lack of an obvious choice, that's what's eventually led them to Jake Weatherald, who's a bit like the Brendan Doggett sort of story as far as the batting goes in a player who's in his early 30s, who's been consistent at Shield level for a while and who's. Who's been a high performer over the last couple of seasons. And that's a long enough body of work that they've decided that they like what they see is relatively aggressive as an opener. So that gives them some contrast with Usman Khawaja, who's got more and more slow in his scoring rates, it seems over the last two to three years. But it's a pretty untested lineup. You know, there's just, there's such a huge opportunity for England in that first Test. If they've got Ebola on debut out of that, that fast bowling squad and they've got an opening batter on debut with the other opener under a degree of pressure with not a lot of runs in the past couple of years, it's such a big opportunity. I mean, England have to win that first Test. But I was reflecting back on the conversation just now, I think they'd be absolutely nuts to not pick Wood and Archer if they're fit, if Mark Wood can get through a game. That's such a point of difference. It's so rare to have either of those available. You know, oftentimes they're both injured, but to have them both available at the same time on a fast pitch when you can pick a couple of other seamers as well to perform that support role and effectively, Wooden Archer can be one bowler, you know, they can, they can take one spot, they could bowl short spells and they could really offer something different. If you're Jake Weatherell coming in on debut, what do you want to hear? Do you want to hear that they've picked Wood and Archer or do you want to hear that they went, oh well, we're not sure about woods hamstrings so we're going to leave him out. I think Jake Weatherald would rather hear that only one of them are playing, in which case do what your opposition doesn't want.

All right, so good news for Ryan and Jeff. I have just appointed you as the new co chairs of the Australian selectors. That's the kind of power I have now. So what I would like from both of you and Ryan, you can go go first, is your two openers in your, your Number three, because this is the discussion at the minute. So who are you picking?

Weather all bats with Kwaja? Because the facts are since Warner's retirement, Australia have lost their mojo at the top of the order and, and Kawaja has gone into his shell almost. So maybe they need a bit of a counter puncher. So weather all slides in there for me and then Labashane, who's done everything that they've asked and made plenty of hundreds, looks like he has found his mojo and is trying to score and is back in really good form. I think he slots in at number three and the rest pick themselves, to be honest, with Cameron Green at number six, which therefore, you know Webster, who's done a pretty good job, he's probably the unluckiest cricketer in Australia.

Jeff, do you concur there?

Yeah, I think that's right. The fact that in the squad at all means, means, means that they're going to pick him. Well, the other option, you know, if, okay, if, if I can run the counterfactual for you, Steve. The other option would have been to have Cameron Green higher up, have him bat at three, have lane open, then you get Webster in at six. But that just feels like a more janky sort of batting lineup that's more homemade. Green at 3 wasn't really convincing. You know, we saw him play one great innings at number four in New Zealand a little while ago when he made that big hundred in Wellington. But Green at 3 wasn't quite convincing enough. I mean, Webster at 6 has produced useful half centuries, but hasn't had a big defining innings in that spot either. And Labochain as an opener was a bit makeshift too. Like, sure, there's not that much difference between been batting three or batting two a lot of the time, but three is where he's produced his best work for Australia. So if you can have him where he's most comfortable and Smith at 4 where he's most comfortable and you can have a specialist opener do the job, that seems like the best way to go about it. And you can have Green bowling some overs and coming in at 6, which is probably a little low, you know, Green would like to be four or five. That's, that's where, that's the spot that's most suited to his game, given he takes a while to get going. But green at 6 is, is the least trade off here of all of the trade off solutions.

Let's finish with Joe Root. I'm not sure if any of you guys know this. It's a really interesting stat. But Joe Root hasn't actually scored 100 in Australia. I don't that, that's. I found that one out myself. Just my own research. I went back through all of his innings. Oh, Mark. I mean he will get asked about it every time there is a microphone in front of his mouth until he gets it. You all have, you know, you've all been in and around him. Do you suspect it will be having any impact on him right now?

Well, look, you know, they've been chipping away Australia about this for quite some time. I don't think Joe is driven by personal statistics. I think he's driven by contributing to his team. And so therefore, you know, we'll have to see what the pitches are like and what the scores are like. But if Joe gets a brilliant 60 and the team win, he's happy. I think that's a really healthy place to be in your mindset. He will go out and play the way he thinks best on that surface on that day. He's a master player. Let me just tell you. I was lucky enough to be a coach for a few years. He was first in the nets, last out, always challenging himself in practice, always open to conversations about, you know, improving that 1%. But I think, yeah, controlling his emotions, having a mindset of contributing to his team, enjoying the team, trying to do well in Australia. That's the big picture. And it takes away from, you know, this personal milestone that I, I've got no doubt that, you know, he will come good and he'll get a get to three figures. But whether he does or he doesn't, doesn't he in my book he's still a master player. He's still rated, you know, for me, number one in the world. And he's got great longevity in his career. He's still highly motivated. So watch out Australia.

I, I guess if we're talking Ryan, technically there is at least one shot that Joe Root is an absolute master of. That kind of like late Michael Vaughan was talking about it late glide. He described it through, through third man that he loves to play, you know, bouncier Aussie pitches that there is an argument there that that could neutralize one of his favorite shots. Not that he doesn't have lots in his armory.

Yeah, and Mark mentioned that earlier on in the show. It's, it's an area that in Australia you've got to be very careful of when you're playing with that three quarter bat, you know, trying to run it down. So that's an area obviously that he works will be working hard on. I gotta say, I love watching Joe Root bat. He's going to go down as one of the greats that we've ever seen. He hasn't made 100 in Australia. Yeah, I get that. But I don't think he needs to make 100 for England to win the series, which is a bit weird. But I think Steve Smith, for instance, needs to make a lot of runs, and I think Travis Head needs to make a lot of runs for Australia to win. Whereas I've got a feeling that the English England runs are going to come more from everywhere, so to speak. So I want him to make 100 just so we can all sit back and go, you know what? He was one of the greatest of all times. Can we just put that to bed now?

Jack, as someone who obviously knows him really well, what would it mean to him to get it?

What, the hundred or winning the Ashes?

Well, that's a good question, actually, because I think we know he'd put winning the Ashes ahead of it. But, yeah, definitely, the hundred is probably big ride.

Yeah, I think it's what motivates the top players is, you know, if there's doubts out there, you want to kind of prove them wrong. So I would imagine on the quiet, he is quite motivated to get that 100, mainly because if he's scoring 100, England are in a great position. So that's just how batting works, I think. And, you know, big innings make a big difference in games. So he will want to do that. He's always wanting, wanted to do that. And I think, you know, he averages 35 in Australia, which is probably better than most people who he's played with when they've been over there. So he's still our biggest performer with the bat. And if he gets that three figures, it'll be a nice one to put to bed and he can go down as one of the greats for sure.

As England and Australia, so many things divide us. But can anybody tell me the one thing that would unite us does in not wanting Joe Root to get an Ashes hundred this year? Anybody able to tell me I've got the clue is it involves a famous former Australian batter, Matthew Hayden says if Joe root doesn't get 100 in the Ashes, he will run around the stadium naked. So for all of our sakes, Joe, go and get it done. I think that's the message, isn't it?

100%. We don't want to see Matthew.

No one needs to see that.

No, not at all.

Jeff, go for a nap or have some breakfast. You choose.

Thank you. Good to have options.

Brilliant stuff guys. Thank you all very much indeed. Jeff Lemmon, Mark Ramprakrash, Jack Leitch, Ryan Campbell, who've all been with us. The BBC will be your home of Ash's coverage around the clock, every ball of every test on tms. You can watch the highlights on the BBC Sport website and app with a full highlights program each afternoon on the iplayer. There'll be daily podcasts on the TMS feed. You'll be able to get the thoughts of Michael Vaughan and Glenn McGrath and many, many more, as well as a special tail enders at the end of each test. As always, thank you so much for listening. Five Lives Sports the Rugby Union Autumn.

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