The Ashes: Two days on and attention turns to Brisbane

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The TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds hello and welcome to the Test Match Special podcast with me Henry Moran on what should have been Day four from the Perth Stadium. Our attention has shifted to Brisbane on the second Test and also the Lions match in Canberra which begins underneath the floodlights on Saturday. In this edition we'll be bringing news of England's squad for that Lions game, finding out with multi time Ashes winner Stephen Finn what goes into the preparation for a pink ball match and also hearing from some disappointed fans who've had more time to discover the delights of Western Australia than they were expecting. TMS at the Ashes. So England have announced the three Ashes squad players so part of the main squad have been added to the Lions squad for the Prime Minister's eleven fixture in Canberra. We did wonder whether we would see some of the core batting group getting more time out in the middle under the lights against a pink ball competitive match action. But the three that have been chosen Jacob Bethel, Matthew Potts, Josh Chung, none of the side that played at the Perth Stage Stadium. So England have had a sit down, they've had a think and elected to keep that core batting group together. Jonathan Agdu, our chief cricket commentator, has been having a look at the news and reflecting.

Yes, it's not what we were expecting is it? To be honest? I mean when we heard earlier on that they were going to be considering sending some players to Canberra, we assumed there'd be people who actually needed the practice. These three didn't feature here in Perth and seem highly unlikely to feature in the second Test match in Brisbane. So it's a bizarre situation. They've sat down, they've considered. They've considered it. I mean, bear in mind, they weren't going to send anybody there. So they've sat down and considered who they should send. And they're sending three players who seem absolutely on the fringe. So, yeah, nothing has changed. And, you know, the likes of Crawley and Root and Brook and these people who actually need, or appeared to need some time at the crease will be off to Brisbane and having nets.

The argument from Brendan McCullum when he spoke to you after the. The game at Perth was they had to work out whether to keep the squad together and build unity, if you like, in that way, or, you know, there would be the potential option for players to go to Canberra if they asked for it. That was the sort of sense we got.

Yes. I mean, he was considering that, wasn't he? I mean, you can. You can take from this that no one's asked to go, because if they're letting three go, you'd think that if one of the batsmen had gone to him and said, look, I really need to go and get some practice, Please, coach. They let him go. But, I mean, that's just conjecture really, isn't it? I mean, we really don't know. I've always believed that a sort of a happy squad is a successful squad and they can't be very happy because of that abysmal performance the other day. So, anyway, let's look at, as we said before, and leading up to the first Test match, it's up to them. They are responsible for their preparation, they're responsible for their practice, they're responsible for going out there and giving it the best shot they possibly can to win the Ashes. So the proof of the pudding is in the eating, isn't it? And this.

They.

They've. They've thought about it, they've sat down, they've had meetings, they've considered stuff and they've decided not to. Not to send any batsman for that practice. So that's. That's up to them. And I mean, you know, we can't. You can't rule England off completely of winning at Brisbane. You can't write them off. You know, they're capable of beating anybody. And Australia showed that they were vulnerable in Perth, albeit fleetingly. So you can't say that they're not going to win because of this. But there will definitely be more of an argument again about whether they'd be better prepared by sending batsmen to go and face a pink ball under lights in this game than being in Brisbane.

We'll be hearing from Stephen Finn shortly about what goes into the preparation, not just for. For Ashes cricket in Australia, but. But also for pink ball cricket. But do optics matter? Because if England have had a think about it and they thought, actually this is the best preparation for us as a group, should they care what it looks like to us on the outside?

Well, they care if it doesn't work. I mean, one of Ben Stokes quotes to me the other day in that rather infamous interview, it was kind of, we know what we're doing and it works for us. Well, you were standing there, Ben, having lost in two days. So it suggested, actually it hasn't worked. But look, this is, this is a long series. It's five games and therefore you have to, you know, you have to give the team, team a chance. This is, this is what they want to do. And there will be. They. And, and the administrators who, who came up with this plan will be held to account at the end of it. And if they've won the Ashes, fantastic, it's worked. If they haven't and it hasn't worked, then that'll be a rather different story.

I think, because England fans will want Ben Stokes and his side to be showing that they're doing absolutely everything that they can, and suddenly all eyes are going to be on them and players need downtime as well. But suddenly those potential days on the golf course look different, I suppose.

Yeah. Don't look good, do they? Look, you can't be in the nets all day, every day. And I was trying to explain this to some irate supporters last night, that they do practice. You watch them in the nets, they work hard and they do care. All that stuff that you, you sometimes hear, oh, they don't care. Sometimes the way they bat, it looks as if they don't care. And we talked about that the other day, the lack of accountability about, about the batting shots. So, you know, it can give that impression. But we see them at practice, we see them work hard, and you can't, you can't do that all day. So what do you do from lunchtime onwards, if you're practicing in the morning, do you sit in your room and watch Netflix or do you go out and play golf or just take some exercise or clear your heads? I haven't got a problem with that. I mean, I really haven't. And, you know, it's. As long as the preparation is worthwhile. And frankly, if, if they were Going to be grumpy about going to Canberra or felt they were forced to go to Canberra because of optics and because of the media, by and large, most of the media saying, look, you know, this doesn't seem quite right. And certainly the supporters I've come across here are more than just frustrated. I mean, they are very angry. There's that case of that fellow from the Bahami Army I was talking to you about. He's been saving 100 pounds every month from the end of the Ashes in 2005 just to come here. What sort of commitment is that? So those are the sort of people who are here, not all of that situation, but that gives an example of the sort of support that England have. But I say. I mean, we keep saying it, don't we? I mean, it's, it's. At the end of the day, it's down to them and the acid test, the end. The bottom line is going to be how it is when we leave Sydney. If it's worked, fantastic, congratulations, you were right all along. If it hasn't worked and we've only got a small sample size so far, then they, then they have to be accountable for that. And there'll be people at the ECB who will have to be accountable.

What did you do on off days back in the day?

Well, I mean, I toured India. So, yeah, there were long days. And bear in mind those days, there was no computer games or, you know, Netflix to go to. So I remember actually some really lovely afternoons traipsing through the various souks and markets with Phil Edmonds, who, I was rather unfortunate was my roomie for much at that time. An insomniac. Spent most of the night reading his book in the bath with no water in it, so I could sleep. So that's obviously. I mean, you just find a way, don't you, clearing your head. I mean, I suppose if I played golf, I would have, back in the day, I've gotten. I'd have gone and played golf. You've got to do something. You can't just sit in your room and yes, golf has become something of an obsession with these players, but I also think it has been tickled up a bit. It, you know, off they go to go and play golf again. Yeah. Okay, so what else are they going to do? That's the obvious thing. I haven't got a problem with them playing golf. As long as the preparation that they're putting in is, Is likely to be the best they can have to help them win this series. And that's that's the debate here, isn't it? Is their preparation good enough? And that's down to them to show.

Us little bit of news from the Australian camp, by the way. Well, Usman Khawaja did play golf in the three days building up to that test at Perth, so it is said Australia coach Andrew McDonald says a decision on playing Pat Cummins in the Gabba Test will be delayed until the eve of the game. And meanwhile Josh Hazelwood quote will be available at some point in the series.

You know, that's a bit vague, isn't it? I mean the word around is that he's unlikely to play a part, but that's good news for him. You know. You don't want Australia to be stricken with injuries, do you?

Interesting.

The Cummins one. Yeah. So normally that and the hamstring, you might, you might say that the, the, at least the day before or maybe even the day before that, you, you decide. So it suggests that he's not an absolute shoe in, but having seen him bowling the net here, he'll, he'll be trying his damnedest to play in that test match.

By the way, what other piece of new and one other piece of news regarding Australia is Josh Inglis who is part of the Australia squad for the second Test at the Gabba scored an unbeaten 125 in double quick time for a Cricket Australia 11 against the England Lions. They chased down 235 in 45 overs.

Excellent. That'll cheer us all up. There you go. They've gone round the park. The second England team to go around the park in a few days.

Thank you very much indeed. Aggers, the TMS podcast on BBC sounds well with me now. And Shemilton, also multi time Ashes winner Stephen Finn had a couple of days to digest things. Finney, have a little bit of a think about what we saw at the Perth stage.

Yeah.

What are your reflections on, on it all?

Well, I think we needed a couple of days to come down from it really, didn't we? It was, it was an intense couple of days, a topsy turvy couple of days, kind of a, a microcosm for what I think the series might be like, how up and down it could be. So yeah, I, I reflect on it as a missed opportunity for England. I think that's quite obvious in the position that they had themselves in at lunch on day two. 100 runs ahead, one wicket down. That procession of wickets just after lunch I think is where the game completely turned and the momentum went back fully in Australia's favor. But with 205 on the board to chase, you felt again as if they started as well as they did in the first innings that they would have a great opportunity. With the batting order discombobulated by the fact that Kaja wasn't open able to open but they got Travis headed and it was a marvelous innings. It was an innings that really throws you off as a bowler. You're at the end of your mark and you go through all these different plans and for all the best intents and purposes you want to hit this perfect length but what he is doing completely puts you off and that's kind of how it transpired to the point where England were chasing their tails and not able to find an answer to him.

Steph, what's been your considered reflection?

It feels like quite a long time ago now. I think Saturday night because we've thought about it and try to get our our heads around it and at some point, and I hope England are doing this actually that it's got to be parked and, and moved on from. Because the word I came up was like it was an aberration, wasn't it that what happened over those two sessions on Saturday afternoon. You just don't see test matches turn like that when England were 100 ahead one wicket down on a pitch that was doing plenty.

I think the one thing that we.

Probably forgot at tea time on Saturday was that it was still only a five session old pitch. And that actually when we looked at the test match that was played on that ground 12 months ago that was very similar when between Australia and India when 17 wickets fell on the first day and both teams were out for 150 and 104. And then there was in the third innings India made a really big score. So when Brendan McCullum was saying afterwards, I think 205 might have been defended, well it still wasn't a proper fourth innings of a match, if you know what I mean. It didn't take place at a time when you would expect a fourth innings to take place. Having said that, England could have had 430 to defend the way that Travis Head was batting and Australia might have got them. So you know, two days on Ben Stokes afterwards said we've got to let this hurt and they would have done and they would have reflected that on Saturday night. I hope by now England have parked it and can look ahead to Brisbane because if they don't park it you'll know Finney, that if you don't move on from Bad results on tours like these, they can eat you up.

Yeah. If you let things like that linger and you have so much time stewing about it and this, this gap between games is a long time to sit around thinking about things. So yeah, the way that we'd have gone about it as a team is, is to have like an open debrief about it all. Where do we think things went wrong? How might we be able to put those right moving forward and then focus on those things that you can do better and that helps you park what's happened. It wipes the slate clean because you've discussed it as a team openly amongst yourselves and then you move on looking forward to Brisbane and thinking of the positive things because there were. Even though it was an aberration, by the end, for four sessions or after four sessions of that game, England were miles ahead within the context of the game. And I can't remember a time when England team have been in that kind of position in Australia for 15 years, so.

But that's what makes it so frustrating, isn't it? Because it was such an opportunity.

It was an opportunity. But if, if we think of it through the frustrating, annoyed lens after one match of a series, then things can compound. That's where you talk about the opportunity missed, but how it was fantastic that they got themselves into that position as a player. That is, that is the side of the, the lens or the lens that you want to be looking at this through.

And this is where Brendan McCollum, Ben Stokes and the other leaders in that group, and they've got Gilbert and Oka, the, the man that Brendan McCollum specifically bought in a bit to do this job, this is where they really earn their money. Now, between now and playing that first test match In Brisbane, Brendan McCollum spoke about it on Saturday night when he spoke to, when he spoke to Aggers, he. He talked about the, the way that they've created an environment that builds resilience when things go wrong. He thinks that they're quite good at this, actually bouncing back from, from these sorts of things.

Now.

Now I don't think England ever had to bounce or this particular England team will have ever had to bounce back from something as big as this. But now this is where they earn their money. If they are, if they have got that environment that they say they've got, that they've built this camaraderie that Stokes and McCollum are the leaders that we think they are, actually, I don't think anyone would say that they couldn't do this and couldn't bring the team together. Well, now's the time to do it and we're going to find out.

Which brings us on to the next little phase of this tour and yeah, a lot of talk about the match in Canberra and players getting the opportunity to spend some time in the middle one thing and another, and I'm interested for you, I mean what is the value of practice? And we'll get through the sort of context of pink ball cricket shortly. But in general Ash's tours, you've been on them where people have been demanding England get in the nets and one thing another. But is there such thing as over practice? I mean what, what is the sort of psychology around?

Well, I mean looking at this Canberra game, it certainly wouldn't hurt to go and spend time in the middle from either a batting or bowling perspective. Certainly I think the mentality of doing that is very different to practicing in the nets. I've absolutely no doubt that these guys practice very, very hard in the nets and I think that it's a misconception that they don't or it's a misunderstanding. I think if people don't think that they practice very hard to prepare themselves to play in test matches. But certainly given what we saw in the Perth Test match in a pink ball game where the, the conditions and the way the ball behaves and the way the ball feels in your hand and it feels off the bat is so different to normal cricket, I don't think it would hurt for people to go and play them.

Why would England at any point have countenance not doing that and making the most of that?

Well, I suppose if you, if this test match goes five days and it's as intense as everyone knows, the first test match of an Ashes series is that having that time off to decompress between games and try and connect with the good memories that you have had. England won the match. It allows you to go away and reconnect with those things in the gap in between. Then I could fully understand not playing in this practice game. But given the game was only two days long, no batters really spent much time in the middle. Bowlers bowled 15 overs maybe in the game each. There's certainly an argument for continuing to battle harden your body and mind in a practice game.

Yeah, the first thing to say is England have only had one overseas tour of five matches since Stokes and McCullum came together. That was in India. They didn't play a warm up game then and they didn't play any tour games and if you think of a five test match series at home, say like the India series that we've just had in the uk, no England players would be going off to play matches in between just because of how hard it is. And so if this game had finished on Tuesday, they'd flown on Wednesday, be playing again on Saturday, then flying to Brisbane on Monday to, to play a test match. So that's just too much. If the game had gone five days. I don't think it's any secret actually that if England had been planning for that, they didn't really want this fixture in the, in the schedule anyway. But The Prime Minister's 11 is a, a really big historic fixture in this country and there's a contractual obligation actually for, for England to fulfill it. That's, this is what happens when tour agreements get signed. And as it has turned out, there might be quite a lot of benefit to certain players playing it. One thing that I, I, I feel like I've said a lot in the run up to this series when we're talking about preparation and that reared its head at Lila kill. There are 16 players in the England squad and if you were to ask them all what is the ideal way to prepare for a test match or a test series, they would all give you 16 different answers as to what they feel they need to do. It might be time in the net, it might be bowling loads of balls, it might be doing nothing. Even Travis Head on Saturday night after he played that 100, he said, you know what? I've been in awful form and there was a time when I felt like I was hitting too much and I stopped. And then I came to the nets in Perth, I batted all four days. He said that's unheard of. I don't normally do that. Then he went and did what he did. So sometimes even a player could have it a set way that they prepare, then they change it. So it's really difficult for, for England to get these things right. And you'll know, Finney, that even when it goes wrong, the last thing, sometimes the last thing you can be want to be doing is bowling or I need to be doing. Oh, exactly, yeah.

Well, I mean in 2013-14, it's no secret that I over practiced. I beat myself up and got myself into a place where the more I practiced, the more I compounded bad habits and the further away I got from finding the rhythm that was going to get me back into the team to be effective. So there's certainly a balance to be found within there. And as Steph says, that what every player needs and wants is very different. And I think that when you look at the tour as a whole and think that had this test match gone five days and knowing how exhausted you are after the first Ashes Test match, especially away with that atmosphere that we had in the Perth Stadium, it's no wonder that initially they said that no one was playing that game or especially the 11 players that played in the Test weren't playing that game. But you have to be able to adapt as the players have to be able to adapt in the middle during a test match within the context of the whole tour, you have to be able to adapt as well.

We're going to get right stuck into what the differences with the pink ball are as we build up to the Brisbane Test match. But there is going to be a big difference. There is going to be something. You mentioned the feel of the ball in your head, but also eyes. That's the other thing. It looks different.

I. I feel the second slip in a pink ball game.

What?

Yeah, it shocked me as much as it did. We didn't have that many catches. And who were you playing for? I was playing for Middlesex.

This was the game you captain, was it?

No, I didn't. Captain though. And NICK BROWN, Edgeburn 2. And it was like a pink comet. It was like it left a trail in your eyes. Whereas a red ball, you just see it and you catch it. But it was like a pink comet coming towards me and I tipped it over the bar. It went for four. He was on 40 at the time and then he went on to get 240. So did you get moved? I did. I moved myself. Myself. But it certainly does look and feel different life as a bowler. It felt plasticky in my hands. As opposed to the feeling and the grip of a leather ball. It felt more like an incredible. Which kids use before the. Before they use a hard ball. So it is very different and it does take some getting used to.

Do you reckon this is going to be a very, very short. You know, is it going to be the flashes rather than the Ashes?

Well, given by what we saw in that first Test match, there was a lot of angst, wasn't there, to people wanting to get bat on board? Clearly the atmosphere and the occasion as well forces you to be a bit more frenetic with the. That you play and the. And the way that you bowl. But I think we'll settle into some degree of a rhythm probably from the third test match onwards because the pink ball famously does more and can move at very quick pace throughout certain passages of play. But it's going to be up to the teams in the moment to be able to recognize that and to be able to mitigate those those passages of play where the game could and will move quickly.

I think what Perth has shown us and Ben Stokes and Brendan McCool match are actually really strong on this is that composure and clarity of thought is going to be a really strong way that players and teams are going to have an influence on the rest of this series. Like you said Henry, you know that game was over in the blink of an eye. England lost it in a session really. And I don't think I've ever seen Ben Stokes lose control of of what is going on in the field as quickly or even as wildly as he did in that last hour when Travis had got going. The team that is going to win this series will be the one that can think most calmly and make the best decisions in those frenetic periods. Because I've got no doubt that they're coming again, particularly in conditions that we'll see in Brisbane. Pink ball floodlights.

There's also the the big question around optics and we'll be hearing from some fans that were in the Perth Stadium shortly but England will be aware of the conversations finney that have taken place. Fans being disappointed, feeling shortchanged, questioning the attitude. Can you base decisions on that and think actually we do need to get out there and we do need to show that we're trying and we do need to show that we're training as hard as we possibly can. Or do you actually have to park that and think we trust our methods?

Well I think you have to be aware of it and I think the players will be very aware of how hurt people are by what happened over the course of the test match. There's absolutely no doubt that the players will be upset and disappointed as much as the fans are. So I think you have to be aware of it. But also if you've built over the course of three years, three and a half years towards this moment using a certain method, using a certain style, I think to rip it up and throw it in the bin would not be sticking true to yourself. McCollum spoke after the game about insulating themselves from the noise and trying to build the confidence back up within the dressing room that is what they need to do in this 12 day period between test matches. It's insulate yourself, recognize the noise outside, accept that it's there, but then stick true to your Method and what you believe is going to help you get get yourself back into the series.

And if anyone, if any England player is doing anything for the rest of this series because they feel like they should be, because of what it looks like to England supporters and tours in the media, that it would be incredibly disappointing and not the way to go about it. So anyone playing in Canberra, if they are playing in camera because they think they should be, well then it's a waste of time. They should be playing in camera in Canberra because they are getting something out of it. They should be thinking about their method because they think it didn't work in Perth, not because they're going to get hauled over the coals if it doesn't continue to work. Because as soon as you start second guessing yourself, you're in huge trouble.

Yeah. And these guys are very much about taking onus for your own game. And there have been times before where I've played in teams where it's right, you are doing this, this is how we're going to do it. We're all going to Canberra. But I think what these guys have done is allowed the players to take responsibility for their own game. So it wouldn't surprise me if they've gone around the dressing room after the dust has settled on on the Perth game two days later and said, do you want to play in Canberra? Would you benefit from playing in Canberra? Those that say yes will go to Canberra and play. Those that say no will use their own preparation to make themselves ready for that next Test match.

What about the notion that England don't take a backward step, they don't need to deviate from the plans. Are there going to be players in that dressing room that feel comfortable and confident enough to stand up and say, actually, I know that this was our plan and this is our method, but I feel concerned that I can't stand up and say that because it will be deemed as a sign of weakness from leadership in the dressing room.

No, I think knowing both McCollum and Stokes, they're both empathetic people who understand people's feelings. Ben Stokes has had his own problems away from the game. I think makes him a very well rounded leader in terms of understanding people. I think that's one of his great skills. So no, I don't think within that dresser room there would be any feeling of perceived weakness. I think it would just be an acceptance of the position that the team were in. After this first test, we expected the.

Pitches to be spicy, lively. Steph, what's the likely course of action in terms of how quickly these games are going.

Well, Test matches in Australia are getting shorter. That's certainly been a trend over the past five years. I think there's a few reasons for that. The, the new version of the kookaburra ball, which was introduced five years ago, which, which appears to do a lot more batting techniques and batting attitudes just are different. Players want to score quickly and, you know, actually see scoring quickly is. Is the way to go. And actually, if we look at what happened over the weekend, it was the third shortest Ashes Test, I think, in history. I can't remember what the exact number, but it wasn't the lowest in terms of runs. We didn't have a lot of time in the game, but runs were scored, so you can see that batters are trying to attack and they're just getting out more often. The other reason why Test matches are short in Australia, for the past five years or since they came together in 27, 2017, 18, Australia have had one of the greatest attacks of all time. Pat Cubbins, Josh Hayes, Wood Mitchell start, Nathan Lyon. They bow teams out quickly, so that is why matches are shorter. I think there will be an element of the game moving on quite quickly, certainly in the second Test, but then Adelaide, I think is. Is a good batting pitch and we might see something a little bit more traditional, shall we say?

Well, I think what we've had no one's really mentioning because of the spectacular collapse from England and then the way that Travis had played. Mitchell start bowled probably as well as I've ever seen.

I knew there's going to be some praise for bowling here from the fastball because you always think, don't you, as soon as there's a collapse, oh, it must be bad batting all the pitches for you think the bowlers, you think you get left out, don't you?

Yeah, not enough praise. I was very happy when Stark was made player of the match and it wasn't Travis Head because he set the game up with the way that he bowled. It was relentless. He took up the slack that was left by having no Cummins and Hazelwood. It didn't seem to affect him at all. He's. He's added skill to. To his game by using the wobble scene that the England players don't seem to be able to pick to decipher between when it's going to swing back to them or when he's going to wobble it across them. So, yeah, they, they also got done by bringing bowling performance to take 10 wickets in a test match is. Is a fantastic effort.

This is what Mitchell Stark said on the first night, so he's put up to, to speak to the press. He said, oh, yeah, you, you'll all be talking about bad batting and the pitch and whatever. What about the good bow? I bet you've got a WhatsApp group, haven't you? All you fast bowlers where each other on the back.

We. We should do. Really. Yeah, we should do.

Do you look at these pitch and think and the newish Kookaburl and think, oh, where was that in my day?

Well, I, I certainly looked at this pitch in Perth with the bounce and with the amount of players that we saw getting hit on the, the back bicep, the shoulder, the forearm. Certainly if you can bowl within 10, into a good length on the pitch, a good length being just full, probably around 6 meters. And you get that steepling gowns that hits the splice of the bat and the shoulder of the bat. Those are the sort of pitches that you want to wrap up and just take with you everywhere. And I kind of anticipate the same in Brisbane, especially with the pink ball.

We shall see. Thank you very much indeed, Stefan. Thank you, Steven as well. Remember, every ball of every game during this Men's Ashes series available to listen to on BBC Sounds with 5 Sports Extra. There's highlights on the BBC Sport website as we go and the Ashes daily debrief with Alex Hartley available available to watch on the BBC iPlayer as well. In a moment, we'll be chatting to the BBC sports editor, Dan Roan, who's been out and about chatting to some fans who have made the journey to Perth and have got a little bit more time on their hands than they were expecting.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.

The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds. Well, here in Perth, it should be day four of this opening Ashes test match, but of course, a distant memory, that dramatic first match at the Perth Stadium. So lots of England fans trying to find things to do in Western Australia and ways to fill their time. The BBC sports editor, Dan Roan has been out and about in Perth and I don't know, I've a bit of a sense that there's just a real disappointment.

Yeah, a sense of anti climax Henry, really I think from. From everybody who was here, not just fans, but journalists too, looking forward to what had been billed as this really exciting opening test match. And I think maybe that's what hurts members of the barmy army and other England fans who have spent so much time and money getting out here. But maybe that's what really disappoints the most is I think this sense that this time, despite you know, the recent record of England over here at down under, this time there was that sense of competitiveness and added to the fact that obviously Australia had key injuries as well, you know, the fact that England were able to, after so many months of planning and hope bring, you know, one of the most, one of the quickest pace attacks we've ever seen the England field out here and play them. And yet despite all of that, it's the same old story. And yet, and in fact it's worse than, worse than what we've seen in those three previous tours. And yeah, I spent some time talking to some England fans as they sort of took stock and came to terms with what had happened. Some were leaving town, moving on, some were just wandering around Perth and some went to Lilac Hill as we did, where obviously the England Lions were playing just to watch some cricket as they had hoped to, of course. And he's a selection of what we heard.

Really disappointing, you know, we saved up. It's the first time I've been in Australia for a five day test match.

And you know, it's over in two days. So crazy really.

They owe the fans an apology, do you think?

I think they do actually, yeah. The money that people have saved up.

You know, opportunity to come out here.

You know, we've got days spare now we're gonna have to do something else. Very disappointing, really.

You should have been at the Optus Stadium today. Instead you're here at this rather humble ground. How do you feel about the capitulation?

Well, I'd like to say surprised, but probably based on numerous other attempts to come and win the Ashes in Australia, probably predictable, just a different form of death. Sad state of affairs. But now we're in so deep into the basball mentality, we've got to really trust the process. Stay with it.

Is it time for them to change their approach? This basball style of batting, as it's known, this very aggressive, positive style has attracted a lot of plaudits in recent seasons under Brendan McCullum. But do you think it's kind of been found out they've just got to.

Start using the heads. They're really talented, really talented. And that's the most frustrating thing, that they are so good.

But it's just a case of they've got to use their heads and play.

The position and the game as opposed to we're just going to whack it.

Was it like your friend? Was it just the one test you were going to come for?

Yep, just the one. That's it. Done dusted. Five days of Test cricket. First time in my life when I get two.

And do you mind me asking what. What are you sort of invested in a trip like this?

About three, three and a half thousand pounds. All in for everything.

So, yeah, a bit let down.

Very.

I'm not sure about let down. I mean, I think with this team, you sort of take the rough of the smooth and you sort of. You always know that the way that we play, that something like this could happen. I just think that you sort of reading the pitch, you thought it might flatten out the back end of day two, day three, if we could have just seen out that spell then. But, you know, again, if we perhaps if we'd sort of played a bit more defensively and gone out like that, then you might have just said that, you know, we. We should. We should have attacked. And, you know, you look at Travis Head and the way that he played and you think. But I think by that point in the pitch, it sort of died out a bit. They've had four years to prepare. We've come over here, they've delivered this.

Absolutely disgusted with the way that they've played. The basball has completely failed.

You know, what is this all about? Why are we here, then? At the end of the second innings, the bowlers. I've never seen a bowling side like that.

You know, that was like watching the.

West indies in the 80s. They bowled better than I've ever seen any England side bowl together. And at that time, I thought, absolutely no way. We're not going to win this Ashes.

We are. We.

We've won this.

We're doing now for the Ashes overall.

I think we'll lose 5 nil.

Some a little more defensive.

But there is a sense that England fans, Dan, feel a little bit let down by the attitude.

Yeah, I mean, I think some of them, as you heard, do understand that this is part of basball. There is always that risk that you're going to get a collapse. And we've seen this in the past. It works both ways and I think they're more phlegmatic than others who have perhaps, you know, I think it also depends on whether or not you're a seasoned follower of England who've been to tours in the past or whether you're somebody who's. This is their only test match and they've looked forward to this for months or years. It's a special occasion and they've been shortchanged. But I think either way, I do think one of the common themes having spoken to them was this surprise, I think and lack of understanding as to why the choice of just one warm up match. And I know this was something which former players raised with England only to be called has beens, as we know by Ben Stokes, the captain. But I think the problem is once you say that and then lose so drastically in two days, people remember those comments and revisit them. And obviously Brendan McCollum and Stokes are sort of standing by their methods and their game plan. But I think I get the impression that more and more fans are just wondering why that is. And I think that's a delicate position for England to be in and they enjoy incredible support. And one of the things I'm sure we were all struck by in that extraordinary Perth Stadium was just the, the numbers of England fans. I think there was around 5, 000 or so England fans that the barmy army knew of because I asked them how many were out here, those in charge of that travel setup. But I'm sure there were many more that got into the ground and obviously expats who'd either flown from places like Sydney or Singapore, or were actually based here in Perth. England enjoy incredible support around the world, especially somewhere like Australia. And I think it feels like a lot of bit of a knife edge right now. The last thing they want to do is sort of lose their fans, lose that support because I'm sure it's of such value to them. And what they wouldn't want is for England fans to feel that they're underappreciated and being let down by a lack of preparation, a lack of willingness to adapt, a sort of stubbornness. But I'm afraid that for some of those fans is what's coming across.

You've followed England sports teams around the world, across World Cups and Team GB at Olympic Games, and support is something that needs to be really cherished, looked after and respected. It's not something that should be taken as a given.

No it has to be earned, doesn't it?

Obviously.

And I think, you know, British sports teams are very fortunate. You know, there's such passion for sport back back in the uk, and I think it's part of the culture and going and watching British teams, whether it's the England cricket team or Team GB Paragb. I was at the Ryder cup, very lucky to be there a few weeks ago in the States. And I'm sure that the support that Team Europe received there was invaluable given the hostility that some players received from the American crown at Bethpage. But it's not just a given. It has to obviously be respected and earned. It's not overstated. It's one test match. It's ended really badly for England. But look, if they can pull it around in Brisbane and this team has shown that such things are possible, they can, I'm sure, repair any damage that's been done. But I do think some of the fans clearly feel that they've been a little bit let down given just how far they've traveled and in some cases, how much money they've spent being here.

Heading to this cafe, as I came down the lift, there was a gent in a barmy army T shirt, and I said, well, how are you feeling? He said, feeling flat. I banked it all on this test match.

Yeah, I think, as I said, I think it depends on whether you're here for the whole tour, whether you've done tours before, whether. And I've met similar people who were just here for this test match, just here for five days. And, you know, some of them have been saving up for a long time to come. And if you're in that category, it must be really difficult. I mean, even. Even as a reporter on it, you know, you feel, yeah, really disappointed that you're not witnessing what should have been, you know, a really compelling. You know, everybody banked on being here for at least four days. Obviously, we're aware that cricket can. Anything can happen. But, yes, there are. There are definitely England fans here who. Who will be traveling back or visiting Rottnest island today or going to Fremantle or going wine tasting or just wandering the streets of Perth with not much to do, who will inevitably be theme. I went for a run yesterday and went up to the stadium and it was just a really sad sight, you know, just no one there. A couple of sort of days looking England fans. You know, there's lots of tours, of course, there's. I'm not sure what the losses will be for cricket.

Australia they're talking about into the. Into the millions of pounds in terms of the impact that you have in losing. And that's not, you know, mention the things like all of the catering supplies and all of those things that stadiums rely on and governing bodies rely on at a local level, at an international level.

Absolutely, yeah. It's a big part of the local economy. I mean, obviously, Perth still stands to benefit from everybody still being here. From a tourism perspective, this is at a time when, you know, test cricket is in something of a battle, isn't it, with other formats of the game to remain relevant, to remain competitive, to remain the kind of proposition that broadcasters want to invest in and that fans want to invest in when they're coming overseas. It's slightly unusual, isn't it, Test cricket in that regard, that it can finish so much earlier than is scheduled compared to other sports and other formats of the game, when you have that. That greater certainty over what you're going to receive, what you're going to get back. But also that adds to the compelling nature of it. It's part of why we all love it as well. But no, it's a very interesting point, actually. And I wonder how the ECB feel about it. I mean, I know they're out here and I saw Richard Gould, the ECB chief executive, at the start of day two. He was looking forward, I'm sure, to. At that stage, you know, having fought back so well at the end of day one. You know, it looks so good for England to post a really big total and I'm sure they'd have been, you know, really excited at that possibility. I mean. I mean, this is the thing an England, any sort of England success out here in Australia, given what's happened in recent tours, would be. Would be such a. It's so important for that team and for. For the game more generally as a. As a shop window for Test cricket. I mean, obviously domestically, Test cricket continues to be very successful commercially back home, but there's a number of different sort of commercial impacts from something ending so prematurely.

And crucially, for all of those fans, there's just a real sense of disappointment, just, finally, just a flatness that pervades all of those fans that would have been desperate not just to see England do well, but the experience. It was a wonderful occasion being at the Perth Stadium amongst all those fans.

Yeah, I think it was right up there with anything I've seen that, you know, those. That first day, this new stadium, the size of the crowd, the amount of hype and build up. It really felt like a really significant sporty moment. I think because of the. Also because of the way that England play, the fact that this felt like the culmination of something of a journey. I know they've been building to this moment, hadn't they, for years, really? The fact that the last tour here was Covid. I think it had all the ingredients. And then that remarkable first day lived up to one of those, you know, so many sporting patients fail to live up to the hype and the build up. That wasn't one of those. It absolutely lived up to it and exceeded it. And the way that England bowled it was just so thrilling that finally England appeared to have found the kind of pace attack that's proved elusive. You know, they've really struggled to bring to Australia, haven't they, recent tours that the kind of attack that you need to be competitive on these pitches. And I think maybe everyone got their hopes up and then it all came crumbling down on day two. And I think that's what maybe marks this out from the past where there wasn't that same level of expectation. But yeah, there's no doubt people are a little bit dazed and confused and those fans are lucky enough to be here for all the five tests. There must be a sense of foreboding as well that they hope that that isn't a sign of things to come. But fingers crossed, England use this time they now have positively and deliver him in Brisbane.

Well, when England make it 4:1 in Sydney, we'll remember this conversation.

D let's hope so. Good luck with that.

TMS at the Ashes. Well, thank you for listening to this episode of the Test Match special podcast. Don't forget, every single day we'll be bringing new editions of the podcast from the Ashes. So don't forget to subscribe on BBC Sounds and hit that push notification button to make sure that you never miss a thing. We'll have full commentary of England's Lions match at Canberra beginning on Saturday. And the second test match of the Men's Ashes begins in Brisbane a week on Thursday. England 1 nil down, their supporters a little frustrated, but there is still time to turn it all around. In the mid-90s, whilst Britain was having.

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Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come outta your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.