The Ashes: Welcome to Adelaide!

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds hello, this is Eleanor Oldroyd. Welcome to the Test Match special podcast from Adelaide. England have it all to do to stay in the Ashes and it's here for the Christmas Test that begin their fight back a week on Wednesday. In this episode we'll be chatting to Phil Tufnell with his memories of Adelaide alongside a special local guide. We'll get the latest from Noosa where England are enjoying some R and R and we'll hear what Australia's Alex Carey thinks of that much questioned break for the England side.

TMS at the Ashes.

Well, here we are on the banks of the Torrens river which runs through through Adelaide and this was, I think, the city that I always dreamt of coming to when I was a young cricket fan growing up at home. And you hear stories about Adelaide Oval and all the history that's associated with Don Bradman and there's a museum to Don Bradman actually in the ground itself, but also the fact it's the setting, it's the old scoreboard, it's the Moreton Bay figs on one side of the ground, it's the view of the cathedral. And the ground has changed an awful lot over the years, but I'm always so happy to be in Adelaide and we'll hear about how Phil Tufnell's got great history here as well at this ground. But first of all, Barrett Sundarayson adopted South Australian I know how proud you are of your city. What is it about this place that.

You love so much firstly, welcome to Adelaide.

Thank you.

I mean, I know it's always been called the City of Churches, but it's also the only city I've been to in the world where when you say a day is 24 hours long, you can kind of live every minute of those 24 hours. It's just the pace of the city. It's also this beautiful mix of new and old. People here like to believe that Adelaide never changes. And it doesn't. I mean, you can look at it as a positive and a negative at times. And you can say the same about the Adelaide O as well. Like you. You mentioned the word a few times there. You wouldn't talk of the MCG as being a ground, even though it has got ground in its name.

It's a bowl, isn't it? It's an arena, it's a stadium.

It is. It is. It's a. I mean, some might say that when you walk out in the middle of the mcg, you feel like a gladiator, but Adelaide Oval is still just this beautiful village ground in a stadium setting. And when they say nothing is more than 20 minutes apart, it's true. I live up in the hills. I've joined you guys here bang in the middle of the city, and it doesn't take you more than 20, 25 minutes. So a lot of wine, a lot of really good coffee these days as well. I mean, you can literally throw a stone and hit a winery in Adelaide. And I'm not even kidding when I say that. Tough as you would agree with that.

Not with my arm I might miss.

And it's just that. It's just everything else, it's got this beautiful, like I said earlier, blend of old and new. And you see it as you travel around the city, you meet people they love talking about the history of the place. The first thing they'll tell you is it wasn't founded by convict. So that's the first thing you hear from mighty South Australians when they talk about the state. And it just. It just embraces you in this very soft embrace. Like, there's nothing very intense, there's nothing very over the top about anything in Adelaide. And you can kind of either just disappear in Adelaide or you can find energy and excitement wherever you go. So it's also called the Festival State because there's always some festival on here. And it's a place that I couldn't imagine I would ever call home. Coming from the busy city, slightly busier city of Mumbai, and like you, Ellie, when I was growing up, Adelaide just seemed like an El Dorado to me. And now I'm so fortunate to call it home.

Well, over on the left we've got the bandstand. There's a stage that's being set up. Carols by candlelight, because we're getting close to Christmas. You've got the footbridge which will lead us over to the ground. The Adelaide Oval, or Adelaide Oval as they call it. Phil Tufnell, what do you remember about coming here for the first time?

Well, undefeated Adelaide. Play 2. Play 21 1.

Play 21 1. Drawn 1 and yeah, I mean, just a sort of a feeling of space. A feeling of space and a bit more sort of little bit more of a chilled vibe, you know. You know, you go to Perth, Brisbane, the Gabatoire and everything in the. Really in your face when you're on the field. But one of those places, the Adelaide Oval that you, you just want to play at, you know, slightly. Is it slightly more Englishy, you know, perhaps a. The odd picket fence around it and everything, you know what I mean? And, and I think England might do all right here. We have done in the past, I think stats wise, it's probably our best chance of a win at Adelaide and no, loved every minute of it. And also, of course met the great Don Bradman here back in 1990. Well, it was a few of the boys had benefit years and he turned up at the ground on the practice day to have a look and have a little chat. He was very lovely, actually. Had a chat with some of the England batters and everything. And we all gone down there in Kriker. You don't turn down a. A chance to meet the great Don Bradman, do you? You know, so I've gone down there with a couple of little miniature bats like that and sort of very sheepishly gone in there and gone home. Mr. Bradman said, do you mind if you sign my cricket bats? And I've still got them at home on my wall.

But just like that. Tafas. I rarely met someone who's 50 or and above in Adelaide who doesn't have a Bradman story. I remember we had a chimney sweep a few years ago. I mean, look at this little boy from Bombay talking about chimney sweeps to start with. But he sprayed. I remember he came home and he said, oh, I used to be the chimney sweep for the dawn. And I'm the only one who can claim that the dawn used to make a cup of tea for me every, every month when I used to go sweep his chimneys or you Meet, you know, just a punter, just a normal fan at the Adelaide Oval, and they'll tell you about the one time that they saw the dawn. Just walk into an Australia Post or, you know, they walked into a restaurant, there was a dawn. And whether it's true or not, everybody seems to have seen the dawn everywhere. So, yeah, and the fact that this wasn't even his original home state or his hometown, but to Holden street, not too far from where I used to live when I just moved to Adelaide, it still remains a shrine. I don't think it still exists in the Bradman family, but you'll still see someone or the other just posing outside of the plaque. And as you would have. Guys would have seen, as you land in Adelaide and you drive into the city, you are on Donald Bradman Drive to start with. So the Bradman aura exists wherever you go in Adelaide and especially at the Adelaide Oval.

So he was a proud, adopted South Australian, just like you, Barrett.

Good things happen to good people among Adelaide.

See, tough as the first time that you played here at this round. Then it was when there was the banks all went all down one end and the barmy army. So the early days of the barmy army, they were there. And we'd been watching a compilation of great Phil Toughnel catches.

Thank you very much.

Before we set off on our walk. And tell us about the one you got to dismiss, Michael Slater.

Well, I mean, just quickly, you're talking about the ground. They still have sort of kept that. I mean, they've sort of developed it and developed it like it is, but yet. But they've still kept that sort of essence of what it was back in the open end. Yes, absolutely. And the hill and that wonderful scoreboard and what have you. Yes. And as England were rampaging to a victory against the Aussies, I managed to cling onto one down at fine leg off Devon Malcolm bold Michael Slater, a bouncer, got a top edge. And it's amazing how good you can make a catch look when you misjudge it. Yeah, completely misjudged it. And then it ended up being a bit of a speccy, as it's called over here, but great memories of that. And you turned around and all the bases said it was the start of the sort of barmy army then. And they've all come running down the steps from the bank and everything and cheering. Listen, it must have been a good catch to make them put their pints down, put it that way. But there was always a great support here. We always had fantastic Support here. And I can remember when we won, you know, everyone, you know, stayed and we were in that old dressing room, the big open bit on the side of it all sitting out there and everyone having the songs being sung to them and everything.

Wonderful memories and in some ways baris actually for England coming to this ground, there is a bit more of a history of them doing well. So maybe the muscle memory is there a bit better. So innings victory here in the series in 2010, 11.

Yeah. I mean, if we go only as far back as 2010, you don't want to go to 2006, do you? Like, you know when they lost the most unlosable test match of all time.

Should have won, should have won, should have won.

Yeah, exactly.

No, you're right.

And even just one more thing on, on the Adelaide Oval and you speak about the Bami army as well. The one thing I've always been taken by this ground is the acoustics of the place. Even though they've kept that one side open and you know, you can still see the, the cathedral when you sit on the western side of the ground. And I watched a lot of Aussie Rose football here as well. It's not the mcg, but still the way the sound just stays in there and the, the way the sound just echoes around. It's. It's often considered the. For such a beautiful, polite venue, it's considered the one place that Victorian football clubs dread coming because of the support that the two teams here, Port Adelaide and Adelaide Crows, get. And it's the same with cricket as well. It's a little more English in that way. I mean, everybody claps and everybody's well dressed. The members are anyway. And you'll see the members queuing up like from 6am or even 5am at times outside the Adelaide Hole on the first day. And like you said earlier, I mean it's. There's no reason why this England team shouldn't find these conditions closer to home. Especially the way the pitches at the Adelaide played this summer. They've been flat and it's a red ball test as well. A lot of hundreds have been scored already in the shield season, the three or four games you've had. Manus Labuschen made one for Queensland most recently. And it's the kind of Adelaide Oval pitch that Phil Tufner would have played on where a lot of everybody loves batting. The Adelaide Oval. And it'll take. Start taking turn by say early day four and into day five. So because we've gone so used to ping Ball test matches here, it feels like we've lost touch with what was or what made the Adelaide Oval what, you know, one of the best venues in the world for five day test cricket. But I think it's back this year because it's a red ball test I.

Just forgot to mention. And you brought it to my mind, Barra. Out the back. Out the back is where it all goes. You know, there's great party atmosphere, as you said, everyone's done. Everyone with a boat is on, you know, and you know, champagne and everything, everyone chatting and everything. So it really is a great atmosphere. When you turn up here as a player, you sort of just feel a little bit more at ease for some reason, you know, the other places you sort of fight your way in a little bit, you know, but this just seems to be a little bit more laid back and I think the England team will like it. And I think, as you were saying, I think the pitch will be a little bit more sort of English style play. Shorter square as well, long straight still, I think, isn't it? But yeah, I think somewhere that if you play well, you can get value for your run. So it's not that sort of steep bounce like at Perth or Brisbane.

Some pedalos over here. Fancy a ride?

Well, could do.

Suddenly got into trouble, didn't they, from the England team. Kind of relaxing.

Too much relaxation.

Maybe that's not such a good idea.

It's not really out on the water though, is there?

They're waiting for you. I mean, once the English arrived from Noosa, maybe.

Yeah, I know this is always one of the favorite places for England fans to come and watch cricket. And we've mentioned there have been some good memories here, there have been some bad memories here. Let's look at the good memories first of all. So as you said, 2010, 11, when England last won a test match in this country, the last one a series in this country, and it all came from the draw at Brisbane, didn't it? And just that little bit of sense of belief that something could happen and then coming here and a famous victory.

A very famous victory and just going back to that draw. I think that's why last week at the Gabba, all of us felt like if, whether they drew that game or not, England could have gained a lot more if they batted a little better in the second innings and, you know, kind of dragged that test match deeper. Because that's how these five match series work, don't they? I mean, even in 2012 when England won in India, that first Test match, Alistair Cook making that second innings 100. Kind of showed them, gave them a blueprint. And I think that's what happened in 2010, 11 as well, against an Australian team, which was probably the last time they were in the kind of transition they are in right now. And they had them for the taking. And. Yeah, I mean, at that point, because England were winning a lot of Ashes series at home as well, at that point, they had one back to back series. You felt like after this win, I remember, felt like probably the tide was turning. How wrong we were.

Yes. Yeah. And bad memories. 2013 14. Mitchell Johnson. Oh, I mean, he was unplayable throughout that whole series.

Well, absolutely. I mean, talking to the boys who had to face up against him there, they say that that was, you know, one of the most lethal spells or, you know, or, you know, over a period of time, you know, kept coming in, kept bowling plus 90 miles an hour, you know, at the head, at the body, worked England over. And I can always remember, I think, sitting in my lounge, you know, watching Sir Alister Cook get that delivery, which just, you know, it just sort of missed through sheer pace. I mean, one of the fantastic. Nothing better than watching fast bowling, is there? You know, when you see that happen, it makes the hairs stand up on the back of your neck and. Yeah, fantastic, Fantastic bowler for Australia. Scare the living daylights out of us.

I think it really did.

I think just on that spell as well.

There's.

There's a picture of it just outside the media center. So if you're an English fan, just close your eyes as you're walking past. And that's when the stadium was under construction for the 2015 World Cup. So there's this beautiful image of Mitchell Johnson running in where half the stadium, there's just a lot of debris. It's like a construction site. But I've heard people who watched that live saying they didn't know whether there was more debris in the stands or more debris of English batters in the middle. English hopes and dreams, all of that. And a lot of batting egos as well. Because what Mitchell Johnson did, I mean, he was lethal throughout that series, but this was his statement piece. The, the. I think he took 12 wickets or so here.

Yeah, on a good pitch. On a good batting pitch. On a very good batting pitch, as you say. That was a real statement. It doesn't matter where we go, don't matter what 22 yards you put in front of me. I've got your number.

Just walking over the bridge now, the river The River Bridge, which is. We've got the hotel behind us. First time, actually, I was here with you toughers.

Yeah.

Eight years ago, the England team were in that hotel.

That's right. And we used to walk over here.

What a beautiful commute it was. And actually I can. They. They quite like doing that in a very relaxed way, don't they, the England team? I mean, they might not be able to. I don't think they're staying in this particular hotel for this test match. But, you know, you wouldn't, might, wouldn't be surprised to see them turning up on scooters with helmets, of course, because I'm sure there are rules here in South Australia, like in Queensland.

Well, they're. They're all on holiday at the moment, aren't they? They're all up at Noosa having a little bit of a break. And listen, I think that's right. You know, they've had two, you know, testing test matches. Mentally, physically, I think it is to get away with it. And as you said, how long is there? I don't know, eight, nine days or something like that. And then you get back into it, you get the feel for it. And I just. I've still got hope belly.

Well, we'll get a bit more into all of that in a second, Toughers, but we're going to go and check in shortly with what England are actually up to in Noosa where they're having that little bit of a break. And they will probably be reflecting on that hugely disappointing start to the series. And we'll get some thoughts from Tuffers and Barat on where the series might go from here. Don't forget to subscribe to the Test Match special podcast. And for all of our Ashes pods and programs, just search Ashes on BBC Sounds.

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TMS at the Ashes.

So whilst Australia are having a bit of time off with their families before meeting up here in Adelaide on Saturday, England are having a much publicized break in the beach resort of Noosa in Queensland, not far from Brisbane. There's been quite a lot of talk about whether they should be there or hard at it in the nets, though our chief cricket reporter Stefan Shemilt is in Noosa. Steph, how is it? What's been happening over the last couple of days?

Ellie welcome to Noosa, a couple of hours north of Brisbane on the Sunshine Coast. Tough assignments for a journalist to follow England to this holiday resort, but someone has got to do it. England arrived yesterday. They've been out and about in the bars and restaurants of the town. They were on the beach this morning. Not sure if there's been any golf yet, but I'm sure that's coming in the next couple of days. We know there's a lot of debate around this trip, just like there was around England's Warm up plans in Perth and the Camber game in between the first and second tests. Understandable to question why England are playing in the sea when they're two nil down in the Ashes. The counter to that is, is this trip has been planned for a long time. It was arranged with the help of Cricket Australia, not a new concept for for touring cricket teams to go on holiday during a series. Australia's players sort of scattered across Europe during the last ashes in the UK in 2023. And a lot of people are drawing comparisons to the last tour of Australia, England's last tour of Australia in 2021. 22. The when the restrictions the players were placed under meant they couldn't enjoy Australia. We know what Brendan McCollum thinks. He said before the second Test when they did five days of training, they were over prepared. How many times have we heard him say that crickets played in the top two inches? Well, he thinks that the top two inches were benefiting from this trip to Noosa. And England will be back training for three days before the Adelaide Test next week.

And a few Aussie photographers peering out of bushes with extremely long lenses.

Yep, the photographers are here and their lenses don't really need to be that long. Noosa is quite a small town. It is hard for England to be inconspicuous and they haven't tried to be. They've been told to expect media attention and to embrace it and that is what they've done. They've been happy to chat to the locals. They've been even been happy to chat to those of us from the media when they've seen us in terms of, I don't know, blending into the background. A number of them have bought a cobra hat, traditional Aussie hats, think Crocodile Dundee. And if they thought they might have been a disguise, absolute opposite. It means you can see them coming from a mile away. All the players were on the beach this morning. They were playing that football game. Pig. You know, the game that they play as a warm up before training days and before match days. All the squad were on the beach. All the, all the staff were there as well. And the players were happy to pose for selfies with fans when they were approached. Ben Stokes with some local children. There were a couple of local radio DJs who appeared in full whites carrying signs saying Moral Victories for Sale and Bas Ball as anonymous counseling sessions. And Ben Stokes even had a photograph with them. Just talking to some of the. The Australian media. They've been really impressed with the way that England have handled the Attention, the way that they've interacted both with the media and with the public, a bit of a contrast to what India were like last year. And in fact, the Aussies are saying the only thing that England haven't done well in this country so far is play cricket. Well, the next chance to do that is in Adelaide, and that's where I'll see you, Steph.

Thank you. Look forward to seeing you soon. Travel safe. Well, there's been a lot of reaction to this break, much of it critical, but here's what a slightly more sympathetic Alex Carey, Australia's wicketkeeper, had to say on it all this morning.

Look, it's a pretty big series, isn't it? And there's lots of time in between games. So for the Australian cricket team, we get to go home for a few days and be with the families for touring parties. You've got to find time to fill in those little windows. And, you know, Noosa's not too far from Brisbane and on the way down to Adelaide, so I'm not sure you need to do it. Totally up to the touring groups to find ways to, I guess, take your mind off cricket for a little bit. The Ashes is a very hotly contested contest, and, you know, you don't want to be thinking cricket every single day of the tour. If you do have a little break, it's probably not a bad time to refresh the batteries. But, yeah, there's been little windows, I guess, in England. Was able to get up to Edinburgh for a couple of days in that little break between. I think it was Manchester and Leeds. So, yeah, it's not new stuff that the English guys are doing. Having a little break.

So that was Alex Carey, the Australian wicketkeeper, and he is quite sympathetic, I think. I think he understands, Barrett, that they can't be on it all the time. And making the point that Australia took a bit of a break themselves during the 23 Ashes series back at home in the UK they did.

Also the nicest man in cricket, Alex Kerry. So you wouldn't get a bad word out of him, even though I know he's still considered a villain in some parts of England.

I hope that we're over that.

All right. No, I think it's. It's fair. And this is. Is this in the itinerary from the beginning? Just because they've lost two test matches, just having two extra net sessions is not going to really help anyone here. And I think the one thing I do appreciate about this England team, win or lose, is they're not Doing anything for optics. And I think I have a lot of respect for that. I mean especially the way Ben Stokes spoke after the defeat in Brisbane. It came from within. I've never seen him being so reflective after a loss. There was no bravado, there was no machismo like we saw at Lords when they had gone 02 down where they said, oh, we have all the moral victories and we can still come back. He admitted that they've done a lot of things wrong and they need to dig deep to find the courage to make better use of these advantage or the positions of advantage that they find themselves in and also to deal with the pressure. So I think the brake is absolutely fine. And we often take what these athletes go through, especially in the modern era, for granted. The scrutiny is no longer just the way it was in Tougher Stand where there were newspaper writers and maybe a few TV cameras, but the fact that they are surrounded by it 24 7. I don't blame them at all for wanting to take a break because the last thing you want is for them to, for anyone in that group to, you know, be affected in a way where it has long term impacts on how they think about the sport or about their life.

Well, we saw the stress that they were all under in the, in the COVID series here four years ago, don't we? And how difficult that was because they couldn't get out. And actually the fact tougher is that Ben Stokes has been on the beach in Noosa having photographs taken with fans. I think it feels quite healthy to me actually to get out and into the real world a little bit.

Absolutely. I mean they're going to be coming back here I think the same time as Australia. Come back here to train, loosen up and get your eye in and what have you. Yeah, I don't mind them going up for Noosa. Too exhausting mentally, physically, everything is exhausting about those two test matches. So go away, clear your mind, have a bit of a break, enjoy yourself and come back fresh and ready to go. But I'm sure also there will be a few little one to ones on the beach over a cocktail, you know, a coffee or a coffee or a coffee perhaps and a few little home truths as well. I don't think it's going to be all fun and you know, surfing and all messing about that will be part of it. But I'm pretty sure that there will be a few stern talking to, you know, not a. Not only about attitude but also about the way you play, what's required from you in Test match cricket, especially in Australia. So it won't all be fun and games up at Noosa.

Not at all. And I think Ben Stokes was very clear about it as well. Again, going back to that press conference and all the multitude of interviews he did after that defeat in Brisbane, where, you know, he wants. I know his comment was more around, there are no weak men in my dressing room and, you know, can't win in Australia. So you can look at it in different ways. You can, like, you know, there's the shock and awe of, like, oh, did he just say that? But the other way of looking at it is what he basically saying is from a cricketing sense that they just haven't really shown up for the fight. And. And I've been thinking about it for the last two or three days that if this was any other team but this English team, and I've seen, and you've seen so many visiting teams come to Australia and get caught out. Batters trying to play square of the wicket, getting nicked off, bowlers getting excited by the bounce at the Gabba and Perth bowling too short and getting found out. And. And that's more a cricketing thing. And I think that is what has happened to this England team. But because there's so much narrative around their attitude and their approach and preparation, or lack thereof, I think we are looking at things which actually don't matter. I think England are.02 down because they just haven't played good cricket. And I think if we leave it at that, everything else just falls into place. And so often we've seen teams kind of find their feet as you get deeper into the series, and which is why Australia don't lose a lot here. They get you at Perth or they get you at the Gabba, and by the time you come to Adelaide, you can either go one or two ways where you're knocked off your feet and you are already thinking about the flight back home, or you can say that, actually, I feel like I'm settled here and there's no better place than the Adelaide Oval to give you that feeling if you want it.

And Australia have named their squad. They've got the luxury of being able to call on Pat Cummings again. We know that Josh Hazelwood is out of the series in the same way that Mark Wood is out of the series for England. But interestingly, Usman Khawaja is still in the squad. I mean, what do you make of it?

I had a long chat with Usman Khawaja maybe two days before the Brisbane Test the day he was ruled out. And what I gleaned from that was he was going to be part of the squad or the group till the end of the Ashes. Whether he plays or not, we'll have to see. I mean, Andrew McDonald kind of hinted that he didn't rule out the possibility of Usman Khwaja coming out and batting in the middle order at number five in place of Josh Inglis. Now, I don't know how that works, but I wouldn't be surprised if they are considering different ways of just bringing him back in. I would be very shocked if they disturbed that opening combination, because I think the series turned on its head the moment Travis Head walked out to open the batting. And I think even the English players would say that as well. So I think it's. I'm not saying it's almost a thank you to Usman Khuaja saying, oh, you've done so much for us, we're going to keep you around. I still think they feel like there could be an opening at some point in the series, whether it happens at the Adelaide Oval or not. We'll have to wait and watch because all said and done, he's played one inning so far in this series in that first Test where he got bounced out by that Rip Snotter from Bride and Kass. And Australia also don't like to make too many changes and they're 20 down or 20 up. They don't really have to either.

And I wanted toughers as well. So no Mark Wood, as we know, for. Sadly, he's got to fly home at the weekend, which is really disappointing. Disappointing for him. And, you know, we love watching him bowl. And Matthew Fisher brought into the squad from. From the Lions.

Yeah.

But I wonder, you know, we've talked a bit about how that last Test ended at Brisbane and Australia chasing 60 odd to win. I mean, clearly England weren't going to do anything. But the approach that Joffre Archer having a go at Steve Smith, as it were, and that little bit of spice. Do you think that maybe gives England a bit of hope, a bit of momentum moving forward, that actually they're saying, right, okay, this is. This is the blueprint for how we approach it next time.

I wouldn't have minded seeing that in the first innings. Let's be fair, you know, But I mean, for sure, you know, we have got the tools. We have got the tools. I think we might see show with Bashir come in and bowl here. We're going to see Nathan Lyon play, you know, I mean, and that is the worrying thing for England, really, that they've got nearly a thousand test wickets to come back here at the Adelaide. I mean, wow. But I don't think they'll be thinking about that. I think they'll be, as you say, up at Noosa, thinking about their own games, how they can adapt again to a different pitch, a different stadium, a different circumstances, different bowlers as well. Now, we haven't seen much spin, have we? Nathan Lyons, an absolute, you know, world class spin bowler. So they're gonna have to be getting their heads around that as well. I think there might be a few changes. I do. I think that bowling lineup might need a little freshen up. You've got the likes of Tongue and Potts. Perhaps a Potts kind of bowler here at Adelaide might be a little bit better pitch up, look to swing and just sort of like Onissa did at Brisbane as well. So these are all things they're going to be thinking about. Do they make any batting changes? I don't think so. I don't think you can bring someone like a Jacob Bethel in. I think you just sit down at that top seven and say, listen, lads, you've got to do better.

Toughus Barrett, lovely to be back in your beautiful city. Thank you for welcoming us.

I mean, look, you have a few more days before that test match and like I said, you won't miss a winery if you throw a stone. So enjoy the hills, enjoy the beaches, go up to the Barossa, go down to the McLarenville and. And you all know where you're coming on the eve of the Test. So I can't wait to host you guys.

Listen in the city of churches. You're preaching to the choir. Literally.

Now I'm looking for a really nice Riesling.

The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

Well, before we go, there's been an awful lot of doom and despondency around England's 2 nil status in this Test series so far after defeats in Perth and Brisbane. But we wanted to take the temperature of the mood in the camp here with Test match Special in Adelaide. So Henry Moran, who is always positive about life, is with me. Hello.

Hello. I am the absolute epitome. I'm a ray of sunshine, the epitome of positivity. Ellie. Because it's nearly Christmas and there's always hope until it's mathematically impossible. And we're not even close to that at this point.

You say hope. Andy Zaltzman, TNS statistician, has written a piece for the BBC Sport website which says Ash's history offers little statistical hope for England.

Yes, but the good thing about history is that it's finished. So what's happened in the past doesn't directly influence what's about to happen coming up. And it just, you know, what I was trying to was give context to the scale of the challenge facing England. And when they romp to a 32 series victory, how extraordinary that would be. But generally, historically, when a team goes 20 down in the Ashes after two matches, they get thrashed. But the positive is that the one exception to that since the Second World War was this England team two and a half years ago, albeit in very different circumstances and after a much closer first couple of tests. But we can. You know, I'm all about clutching straws.

Absolutely. Well, Henry's going to give us some reasons to be cheerful and then Zoltz is going to give us some reasons to be tearful, if you like.

We've got sort of punch over here, punchy mood and moody.

So here we go.

England always lose at Perth and Brisbane, so we can actually just accept that that was going to happen. Statistically, though, Adelaide Oval is their most successful Test venue in Australia. They've got nine wins. So there you go. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Well, they've actually got reasonable records at, at Melbourne and Sydney. Oh, it's coming up as well. 20 wins in Melbourne, 22 in Sydney. Some of those are quite a long time ago in the dim and distant 19th century past. And England's record at Adelaide recently, they've only lost six of the last 10. And in the context of England's last 10 trips to Australia, that is phenomenal. I mean, they've lost six of the last seven and won one and drawn two of the first three of those 10. So recently it's not gone too well, other than Strauss's team winning the second Test there spectacularly in 2010. 11. Since the war, England have won 4, lost 11 in Adelaide, 1 8, lost 11 in Sydney, 1 8, lost 12 at the MCG. But you compare that with Perth and Brisbane. They've got much better records at the three grounds they're about to play at, albeit that they still lose more than they win. But Perth, one win, 11 defeats in the two stadiums in Perth, Brisbane, two wins, 14 defeats since the Second World War. So the difficult part is over and we're only 20 down.

Okay, I'm feeling more cheerful all the time. Go on, Henry.

I'm not going to mention the dangerous 20 lead at this point, but I'm going to throw that. You know, that's just a spare if I need it. England, as you mentioned, zoltz came back from 20 down last time. So this is an England side and were it not for the reigning match, have won that series. It's an England side that has muscle memory of fighting back in a series. And Australia will also be aware of that.

Yes, that might make Australia slightly less likely to give up a 20 lead again. They did it. I mean they've done it the last two consecutive series. Sorry, they've lost the final test in the last two series in England when they needed to win it, to win, to win the series. Having retained the ashes by going 2:1 up in the fourth.

The difference compared with 2023.

That series was really close. Apart from the Manchester game which ended in a draw, which was the only one that either side dominated and they lost an entire day to reign. Also about 30 overs unbowled due to slow overrates, which don't talk about quite as much as the rain, but could have made a big difference. But if you look, we look at the first two tests of that series. I wrote about this in my website piece. Two cross close games. After two Tests, England had scored 34.6 runs per wicket, Australia 35.8. So two very close games, Edge Bastion Test and the Lords Test. This time England are 22.7 per wicket. Australia 38.2 per wicket. And those that margin is almost identical to four years ago, which is 21.8 to 39.5. And eight years ago 23.9 to 38.6. And after going 20 down in those series, England lost both 4 nil. So that might be statistically that seems to be the pattern that is being followed more closely than 2023. But as you said, the fact that this specific team has done. It's only the batting lineup. So mostly a different bowling attack. So they do have some memory of it that will give them some hope. And I think, you know, I guess if they make a good start, then, you know, they can forget about what's gone. What's gone before. But yes, I mean, historically going two nil down every time England's gone two nil down in the Ashes in Australia, they've lost. But 100% isn't what it used to be. I mean, everything's exaggerated now. So actually 100% is quite small as percentages go.

Well, there we go in the bag. As I told you, of course, Eleanor, England have Now played a couple of warm up matches, albeit they were the first to on the beach in Lucent. No, I mean the one at the Perth Stadium and then the one at the Gabba. But all, it might be said, didn't.

Necessarily go too well.

They are a little bit more battle hardened. I say that sort of half in jest, but actually there is an argument to say okay, well into the series now.

Yes, I mean we could say that now whether that, that proves to be the case when the cricket begins again, I don't know. And looking at the evidence of this specific England side before the tests when there was all that talk about the lack of warm up games, I point out that actually on their five previous tours under Stokes and McCullum, they'd won the first Test every time. So the evidence is that this England team actually gets worse over the course of a tour. So since they won 3, 0 in Pakistan, they went to New Zealand, won the first Test, lost the second, albeit only by one run. They went to India, won the first Test, lost THE NEXT FOUR. They were competitive for two and a half of those four, then tailed away at the end. Pakistan won the first Test, scored 800, faced with a couple of turning pitches, lost the second and third Tests and then they won the series in New Zealand, but lost, lost the third Test. So in terms of looking at.

Tests.

After the beginning of a tour, generally they've got worse. So let's just hope that the whole, because they lost the first Test, maybe they're just trying, just flipping that, flipping that round. But if that doesn't, I'm not sure that necessarily will help.

You've, you've not dampened his enthusiasm yet?

Not yet, no. I've still got two to go. Okay, next up, Joffre Archer's pace and that's Bell to Steve Smith. Now some people would say, well why.

Why not bowl like that?

Just, you know, if you can bowl like that, look at it in the negative, why wasn't he bowling like that? But there was just a sense, I don't know, it was a short period of play, but there was just a sense. There was a little bit of fire from England's fast bowler who could be a match winner.

He could be.

He's only got three wickets in the series so far, but I think has sort of bowled better than his stats so far. Bowled really well in that fantastic first innings in Perth. He bowled a very fast spell but ended with naught for quite a lot from was the 21st quickest recorded spell for England since 2010 and the top 20 are all mark Wood. So it was the fastest spell for England since 2010 that hasn't been bowled by Mark Wood. Ten of those wood spells were on the last tour of Australia, which when he bowled heroically in a losing team.

And now Mark Wood's got out of the way, he's going to be carrying the incentive to move on up the list.

That does highlight what England have lost with that, you know, that potential of having two bowlers capable of bowling sustained 90 miles per hour plus. So, I mean, Arch is a very different bowler to Wood. I think we saw in his debut series in 2019, he bowled in lots of different ways. He bowled that famous spell at Lords where he bowled incredibly quickly and hit and concussed Steve Smith. Then later in the series he was bowling, bowling swing and bowling at different paces. So he's got different techniques. I don't think obsessing over his swing speed is necessarily the right way to look at him as a bowler, because I think he has lots of ways.

Of saying to Shane Warne, why don't.

You just rip it really well and.

Turn it in a very exaggerated fashion every single delivery? That's not how bowling or the human body works or your plans.

And I think there are some bowlers for whom that high speed does make them a lot more effective. Archer. I guess we have limited data on Archer because he's had a very interrupted Test career and has only played a few games since, since coming back. But yeah, if they can harness that.

Speed plus the skills that he's shown over his career, then he can be a potent force. But as yet in the series, not as many whiffets as he and we would have wanted.

Well, there we go. I'm just gonna offer you a quick one as well. Jackson Stokes showed the way. There's encouragement, Ellie. So there we go. Sorry, go on.

We're just on the Jacks and Stokes. That was 36.4 over partnership longer than either innings in Perth. To put it in context, it's the 164th longest England stand in Australia. So this just used to be how cricket works. That 36 over partnerships weren't exceptional, but it felt epic in the scope of what we'd seen. The Stark Bohlen partnership, 27.2 overs, was only three balls less than England's 8th, 9th and 10th wickets have lasted in all four innings of the series so far. So England's last three wickets, 12 wickets fallen and 27.5 over Stark. And Boland batted almost that long. In their one match shaping stat.

You say that's how cricket used to be. I remember Christmas used to be a time of cheer and goodwill. Look what we've been doing with Ellie. I've still got hope.

There's always sorry to be the statistical screw.

Andy Zaltzman, thank you so much for being so realistic. Henry Moran, thank you so much for being so optimistic. That is just about it from this episode of the TestMatch special podcast hit subscribe to make sure you never miss an episode and if you search Ashes on BBC Sounds, you'll find so much more from our coverage out here in Australia. The next Test begins next Tuesday night UK time starting at 11:30. We'll have full ball by ball commentary of it all, plus highlights and a daily Ashes debrief on the BBC iPlayer. Thanks so much for listening from all of us here in Adelaide. We'll speak to you soon.

The TMS Podcast on BBC Sounds.

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