The Ashes: When Bazball went bad and one very proud dad

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds hello.

And welcome to the Test Match special podcast. This is Henry Moran. The day after the Men's Ashes concluded here in Sydney, sitting in in the sunshine by Sydney Harbour as the boats drift in and out and England reflect on what has been a tour that ultimately ended in disappointment. But with perhaps a few green shoots within it all, we will have the opportunity over the next half hour or so to look back on what has been a disappointing tour with a bit of a dramatic conclusion. With some breaking news in the company of our chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemelt. We'll hear from Michael Vaughan and we'll hear from the father of the one man who lit up the Sydney Test match, Jacob Bethel. TMS at the Ashes. Well, here in Sydney, England can wake up to a 41 series defeat in the Men's Ashes series. A series they would have come to Australia dreaming of victory, success and the celebrations that might have followed, as it was 11 days all it took for Australia to retain the Ashes. It has not been a series without some moments of positivity for England. However, ultimately that dream goal of a first Ashes win in Australia for 15 years goes unfulfilled. With me here watching us by Sydney Opera House. We see the boats heading towards Manly and down the river towards Parramatta is Stefan Shemilt, the BBC's chief cricket reporter. And Steffen, before we get on to the series more generally last night, a little bit of breaking news in the form of what actually happened before the Test match series got underway in the White Ball series in New Zealand involving the White Ball captain, Harry Brook.

Yeah, we found out that before the One Day International in Wellington, that Brook, the night before the One Day International in Wellington where Brook was captain, that he was involved in an altercation with a nightclub bouncer. He was fined for that. He was given a last warning for his conduct, but ultimately allowed to keep his job as White Ball captain and as the Test vice captain. England lost that game. They were 31 for 4 at one point. They did well to only lose it by two wickets. But the fact that that took place before the Ashes and then all the different things that we know then took place on this tour, specifically with regard to England's off field activities, not necessarily what went on on the field, even though, you know, it's all balled up with questions of culture around the team and those sorts of things. It was staggering when it came out last night, some of us were still sitting at the SCG that the Australia and England players were mingling on the outfield with their families. And a story dropped in in the Telegraph followed very quickly by statements from the ECB and Brook himself. Brook has apologized. He said he will learn from this. He's captain of England in less than two weeks in a one day international in Sri Lanka that runs up to the T20 World cup in India in Sri Lanka and at the same time when we'd had Brendan McCollum defending his position, really, because we know that McCollum and Rob Kee are going to be given the chance to stay in post as head coach and Director of cricket if they can make changes to the England setup and if they can improve results. Well, improving results is a relatively straightforward thing to measure, isn't it? Changes to the setup is unclear. And if Brendan McCollum feels like he is getting interference from above, particularly when we know that Richard Gould, at the same time as all this was going on, announced an investigation or a review rather, into this Ashes tour, it feels like it could be quite a messy couple of months for the management of the England men's team and the people at the top of the England Welsh Cricket board.

Do we know first and foremost when the ECB knew about this incident and Also, I suppose, do we know the severity of the punishment, the fine? Speaking about £30,000, which sounds a lot to you and me, but what about the internal workings of all of this?

Well, Brook self reported and the incident itself was put to bed by the time England had arrived in Australia, which suggested it all happened pretty quickly. And £30,000 is about the maximum that Brooklyn could have been fined. So it shows that it was taken seriously. I guess people would be asking, well, why wasn't this made public sooner? Well, the ECB often do keep disciplinary matters confidential. Whether they should or they shouldn't is a. Is a different matter, but they do. If you think back to Alex hales before the 29 World cup, when it was subsequently revealed that he'd failed a drugs test, that, that didn't, that wasn't made public by the ECB at all. So that is their policy. I think a lot of people might be screaming at the radio now saying that it, that it shouldn't be. The fact that it only came out because of some excellent journalism at the end of a tour, when a style of these issues had dogged England's trip to Australia and there were questions about what England were doing off the field, particularly in Noosa. And I'm sure we'll get into the. The rights and wrongs of whether or not that trip should have gone ahead in light of what happened in New Zealand. I think a lot of us, even before the news of Harry Brook came out last night, were thinking how disappointing this tour had been on the field and what a missed opportunity England had had, and whether or not that opportunity had been missed because England, including the players, had not given themselves the best chance.

You were in Noosa, Stefan. And to me it feels astonishing that a senior leadership figure in this England team, with the knowledge that the ECB had, when he got to Australia, of this misdemeanor in New Zealand, was then allowed to be seen as you saw. You were there day after day, sitting outside the same bar. I mean, that screams of a culture that is not a professional sporting team. If you're somebody who's invested a huge sum of money, lifetime savings, to come and watch England in Australia and you then learn you've got a young guy that has been fined for a late night misdemeanor in a white ball series, England know about it. They have an arguably controversial break during the tour and during that break he's outside bars day after day, you're thinking, what is going on?

So there's a few things to go at here. With the Noosa trip, so many of the England management have said that the players deserve a break and I don't.

Think anyone would dispute that on a trip. Alex Carey told me that very same thing. He said he went fishing in Scotland. There is a difference between fishing in Scotland, one would argue, and the trip to Noosa.

Yep, you're correct. And a lot of people would agree with you there. And someone like Harry Brook will spend a very long time away from home during this winter. He went to New Zealand. He's done the whole Ashes tour. He's going to go and lead Inger in Sri Lanka. I think someone will correct me if I'm wrong. I think he'll be the only man to play every game for England this winter. But there's loads of ways England could have had a holiday halfway through the Ashes series. We're sitting in Sydney, huge city. They could have melted into this city and no one would have known what was going on. But the Noosa trip, as we've discussed, was brazen, really. And there was nowhere for England to hide on that small strip of bars and restaurants.

Arrogant of them to think that.

I don't know. I don't know if that's our place to say whether or not they've been arrogant, but they certainly did not want to hide away. And they were 2 nil down during the series. And I think there was a certain amount of. A certain amount of bravado, as if to say, look, we are 2 nil down, but we are still going to do this and we are going to sit in this bar and we know that you are taking pictures of us and we don't mind. I think the overriding feeling of it all is that we're here yet again at the end of an Ashes tour, talking about an England drinking culture in Australia. Eight years ago. Johnny Barstow, Cameron Bancroft, Perth Bar. The headbutt that Barstow was was ridiculed for it just derailed England from the start. I don't think it was a big deal at all, but the Australian media knew about it and they used it to get it under England's skin. Same tour. Ben Duckett pours a drink over James Anderson. Duckett was playing for the Lions and he gets dropped from a tour game. Four years later, at the end of the tour, a video emerges in Hobart of of police having to drink to break up a late night drinking session. Now here we are yet again. I think people can accept poor results. Australia are a better cricket team than England, particularly in this country. You know A record of one series win in 40 years for England is pretty conclusive from that point of view. Australia are better at playing cricket in this country. I think what people struggle to swallow is just this idea that maybe every time England come here, or certainly in recent times, they haven't given themselves the best opportunity to change that record.

Well, let's hear from a man that has won an Ashes series, leading England to success in 2005. Also played here in 2002, 2003, very successfully. Here are the thoughts of Michael Vaughan.

The Noosa trip was fine for me, but the Noosa trip on the back of now what we know what went on in New Zealand, you have to point the finger at the leadership group of the ecb, because if they knew and then he had this incident and then he's played the next day, as the England captain, you have to say that the highest level of management of the ECB need to look themselves in the mirror, because they were clearly trying to brush that under the carpet because the Ashes were coming up. If they'd have dealt with it there and then, it had been a big story, but at least you push it out of the way for it now to have broken on the back of losing 41 in Australia, on the back of what happened in Noosa, on the looseness of the players on the pitch in terms of their discipline with some of their strokes, it kind of just tells you that the whole culture around the team and the group and the ECB as well, needs to change.

And does that buck stop with Brendan McCollum or is it the wider leadership team?

I think it's the wider leadership team. The two Richards at the top of the game, Rob Kew, the director of cricket, Ben and Bazaar, clearly they've tried to protect their white ball captain, which in a funny way I get because the Ashes were coming up. But fundamentally, when the captain of England breaks a discipline record in terms of what he's delivered, you've got to deal with it there and then. Because I've been around the block for many, many years, it generally always comes out. So you might as well deal with it as soon as it happens. They haven't. And now we're talking about an issue which two months ago and the back of a 4:1, Ash's loss, it kind of all falls into the same place where the professionalism and the attention to detail just has been lacking with this team.

If you're Brendan McCollum tonight and you're looking back at the cricketing performances over the last eight Weeks, what are you thinking about this series?

If I'm Baz, I'm looking at a huge opportunity miss and he must be scratching his head of why. At certain moments when England had a chance to kind of get on top of the game, they didn't have the skill or the mentality to deliver that moment. Many, and myself included will look at the preparation, it'll look at the attention to detail that seems to be lacking with this England group dropping so many catches. We've seen England teams in the past drop so many catches here in Australia, so maybe we need to look at that in terms of English cricket as a whole, of why that continuously happens. The discipline of bowling over after over into that kind of really good length zone, we've not been able to achieve that. And obviously batting for a period of time either, two players have played with technique and discipline, have scored the three hundreds, and that's Jacob Bethel and Joe. And I guess that's the real glimmer for English cricket is that Jacob Bethel played Test cricket the right way this week. And maybe that's the blueprint for the future of English cricket.

And with McCollum, it's a little bit complicated because we've got a T20 World cup right around the corner. Would you be surprised if he was still the man leading this England side in the Ashes in 18 months time?

I think he needs to win a white ball series or two. I'm in the T20 World Cup. It's his second ICC event, the Champions Trophy. We didn't win one game. The white ball team seems to have gone a little bit backwards and I think Sri Lanka, India, where the T20 World cup is taking place. This England group, full of talent, full of the right style of players. But will they have enough attention to detail to beat the better teams under the hotbed of an ICC event? It's going to be a big tournament for Basmacolum.

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Listen on BBC sounds well, those are thoughts of Michael Vaughan. Stefan, Lots of options of where we could go from here. Manley's looking quite tempting for a little bit of brunch. Possibly. But what about England? Do you think that any of the news that we've got over the last 24 hours changes anything? And we've heard that Brendan McCullum and Ben Stokes want to carry on in their roles, but there are perhaps caveats, depending on what the ECB big honchos decide they want the direction to be.

I think to take the first question in terms of the news that we've had in the last. The last 24 hours over what happened with Harry Brook. The only thing that changes is the amount of external pressure that may be the very top of the ecb. Richard Gould and Richard Thompson, the chief executive and chairman, will feel, because they have known about this for two months.

So doesn't reflect well on them.

No, no, it doesn't reflect well on anyone. But in terms of evaluating the futures of. Of Brendan McCollum and. And Rob Key, then the Brook incident is almost separate because that happened a long. A long time ago. We know that conversations have already taken place with, with Brendan McCollum and Robbins Key from the ECB top brass about how they think this team should be taken forward and that McCullum and Key will be given the opportunity to stay in post if they can show they're making improvements. So, naturally, that is results, but that is everything that goes with this England team. That is the culture around it off the field, that is training methods, that is backroom staff, that is players showing that they are learning and improving. The challenge , will Brendan McCollum in particular accept that? Because we know that Brendan McCollum is. He has methods that are ingrained. And actually he could say, do you know what my methods turned this team around when I first came here? England. When McCollum first came, England had won only one Test match in 17. They won 10 out of their next 11. Now, he could point to that as well. This team's, even now is in a better place than what it was four years ago. Some might disagree with him, but he could say that. So it feels to me like we're in for a really rocky time over the next couple of months, starting with that, that white ball series in Sri Lanka and going into the T20 World Cup. Because if there is pressure from above for Brendan McCollum to change how he runs this England team and he is resisting into that while that creates a problem, and then I'm not really sure where you go from there. As for Ben Stokes, the England captain. I'd be stunned if he is not the captain come the first Test match against New Zealand in June. The one thing I'd say about this all, Henry is going back to McCollum's improvement of the England team. The team he inherited was full of grizzled, proven Test cricketers in some ways who needed picking up because they had not been at their best for loads of different reasons. Covid might even be one of them. But think of the players in that team. Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Johnny Barstow, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood. I know Joe Root was there. He's still around. And McCollum, his. His super strength is getting the best out of those players. How many times do we hear him say, I want to make you feel 10ft tall? And that's what he did. Now he's been given a new generation of players that he. Partly through his own making. Some players have moved on, some have retired, but some have been dropped and left out and been replaced by younger players. Jamie Smith, Sherry Bashir, Gus Atkinson, Josh Tong, Ben Duckett got given another go in Test cricket. Ollie Pope and Zach Crawley still feel young even though they've played more than 60 Test matches. And I don't know if this idea of just making them feel 10ft tall and then letting them fall back on their own experiences works. These guys are trying to learn how to play Test cricket. They need to be shown it. And I don't know if Brendan McCollum is the man to show them how to play Test cricket. A lot of slogans don't we run towards the danger, put pressure back on, know when to absorb pressure. Don't know if this team needs slogans, it needs showing how to play Test cricket. And that is the question of whether or not Brenda McCollum is the man to show these players what to do. And over the next little while.

I'll be interested to know, hand on heart, if we could really say how many of those players have got better in that time. And that's another issue. Anyway, all of these are discussions to have during the full rundown and assessment of how this tour has gone, which will no doubt go on in fullness over the course of the next few days and weeks. But unquestionably, one real bright spot of this tour, finishing with this brilliant century from young Jacob Bethel, just 22 years old, somebody who, amongst all of the doubt, amongst other members of the side, looks set to be a crucial member of this England team going forward. Played brilliantly in scoring a quite fabulous 150 in England's second innings. And we were given a real treat on Test Match Special. On the final day. At lunch, wearing an incredibly loud, flowery shirt, the godson of the late, great Tony Cosia as well, the father of Jacob Bettel, popped in for a chat with Simon.

Mann. I've got a very proud man alongside me. I imagine you are. It's Graham Bethel. Welcome to the Test Match Special.

Box. Yes, thank you. Pleasure to be.

Here. How are you feeling after.

Yesterday? Yeah, we're, you know, the funny thing is we, we got here today, we, you know, and when Jacob went out to bat, it felt like if he was on zero again, even though he was 140 something, because I, I know he, we had dinner with him last night and he was very keen to start from scratch and go again. But, yeah, we were just as nervous watching him face his first ball today as we were watching him face his first ball yesterday. But, yeah, great to be.

Here. So is it a pleasurable experience to watch him bat or is it kind of like. Oh, kind of like watching behind the.

Sofa? It's not. I'm a little more relaxed after the first 20 balls because, as you know, unfortunately as a, as a batsman and particularly against bowling at this level, anything can happen in those first 10, 15 balls. And Jacob would say, you know, once, once he's got through the first 20 balls, he. He's a lot more confident and relaxed and I try to be, but it, it's. Yeah, it doesn't get, doesn't get any.

Easier. So what was it like in the nineties yesterday, when he was in the.

Nineties? Well, when he was in the ninies, as we know, Jacob made 96 in New Zealand and he probably thought he'd bat like his old man and try and hit, get from 96 to 100 with a four through the covers and edged it. And that was the end of that. My dad, who passed away a couple years ago, would have been saying, Jacob, you know, you don't get to 90 too often. Get it all in singles. If it takes an hour, it doesn't matter. But I think he would have learned from that. And when he got into the 90s, I figured he was going to take however long and he wasn't going to let that opportunity go by again. And then what does he do? Come down the wicket and hit it over mid wicket to get the four. And I was like, oh, geez. Anyway, he got there and that was a great thing. And not only that, he then went on to get another 40 odd, you know, yesterday, which is.

Great. Do you relax after the.

Hundred? Not really. Not really because, you know, although Jacob got 100, we're still, still wanting England to get in a position of, to try and win the game. So he would have known that he had to bat the rest of the day and try to get as many as possible. As I said, yesterday was unfortunate that we lost Becketts at, you know, the wrong time really. But yeah, he stuck at it and kept going right to the end. He's, he's a strong, young, fit fella, so he, he wouldn't have been tired or anything. Just keep.

Going. Was he in the euphoric mood yesterday evening or is it just a sense of deep.

Satisfaction? Not at all. We, we, we left the ground and we're. We're staying at a little Airbnb down by the bridge. Harbour Bridge, which has become a bit of a, a little area for us. We love the Opera Bar. So we went there, had a couple drinks and then we met, we had dinner with him and you would not have known Jacob had scored. There was 140 odd knot out. He came down, we had something to eat and he kicked us out about 9:30. Says he's got work to do tomorrow. See you tomorrow. And that was the end of that. You know, he's no, Very, very relaxed. He's very focused on what he needs to.

Do. Have you been following around all tor. How long have you been.

Here? We were here for the Melbourne Test. Yeah, we traveled up and got here probably two or three days before, Before Christmas. So, yeah, just Melbourne and.

Sydney. So did he sort of tip you off that he might be.

Playing? No, no, we.

Didn'T. You always planned to.

Come? Yeah, yeah, we were coming regardless. You know, Jacob, Jacob has been away, as I say, been up in England from the time he was 12 and he now, you know, he's playing a lot of cricket, doing a lot of traveling and we, we believe it's important to get the family and it's difficult for him to get back to Barbados, so we've got to go and track him down wherever he is. And you know, we went to the IPL earlier last year, spent two weeks down there. We didn't know he was going to be playing. Fortunately, he got two games while we were there and similar to here, we didn't know he was going to be playing, but we think it's important just to, you know, get the family together and make sure he's still grounded and, and not getting too big for his.

Boots. That's a typical dad that, isn't.

It? Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. What's serendipitous, wasn't it then for you to turn up and then to him to play at Melbourne and also play an important part in that England win as.

Well? Yeah, yeah, yeah, the, the, the Melbourne innings, that second innings was, yeah, we, we had, we had seats but we were not in a seat. We were on the concourse at the ground floor walking and prancing and moving around and yeah, every, every run that reverse scoop was not. Didn't go down very well with me or the old man up in heaven, I tell you, that was. But you know, it's different game now. These fellas, what they do and what they play is, is beyond me.

Because you played at a decent standard yourself, didn't you? But your dad played a really good stand and you played a decent standard as.

Well. Yeah, dad that, that played cricket, you know, for Barbados in the 60s. He was a left handed all rounder. Unfortunately at that time he was competing with a fellow by the name of Sir Gary.

Sobers. Yeah, he wasn't bad, was.

He? He didn't play for the West Indies, but dad would have played for Barbados sort of, you know, in the mid to late 60s he would have played Barbados. Played a rest of the world side in 1966 which he would have been a member of. And that was with Charlie Griffith, Wes hall, you know, the whole group of them. And yeah, I played, I played in Barbados. I represented Barbados under 19 cricket. My contemporaries at that time would have been Courtney Walsh, Carl Hooper, Jimmy Adams, you know, they were the people I played against. And then I sort of had a decision or an opportunity to, to do a degree in London, which I did. Which meant then that it really was, you know, a lot of people felt I had to make a choice. Do I stay in Barbados and try and progress cricket and maybe get in the West Indies side or do the opportunity of getting a degree, which I took the latter. I played a lot of cricket in England. I played with Graham Duckett at Dulwich. That was the club I played with. Dad was very friendly with Pat Pocock and Mickey Stewart, so played in the Surrey League and then I moved to Sheffield to do a year work for a year and that's where Sheffield Collegiate then came in the swing, went back to Barbados and then came back to England in 1990 because I got married for the first time in 1988. So Jacob is a second crop as they say. Yeah, that's had a great Time at Sheffield Collegiate and that's where the Matt Rudin, Richard Ker, I mean it's remarkable all of them play.

Together. That you played with the, the two other dads of the players who are playing here today. It is remarkable.

That. It is, it is. We, we had a lovely, a lovely lunch with Nick Holt from the Telegraph when we were in Melbourne and we definitely reminisced over a few drinks, which was, which was.

Great. So what sort of player were.

You? I was right handed. Didn't have the concentration that Jacob has, that's for sure. He gets that from his, from his grandfather. And I was, yeah, positive is how I would phrase it. You know, used to bat probably in the top four open the batting sometimes. Was never afraid to go aerial as they say. And yeah, used to enjoy it. You got to play to enjoy it, you know, and that's one of the things I, I don't get too involved with Jacob on his coaching side. I mean the, there's so many.

Batting coaches and are you tempted to, I mean, I know what fathers are.

Like. No, I, I, Jacob's grandfather used to, you know, send him little whatsapps. You know, Jacob, that shot the first time was a mistake. The second time was careless. The third time it's not good. You know, that's, that's how he used to relate with Jacob and no, I let Jacob just get home with. He, he assesses the game much more than I ever did. And he will know when he's done something that's not right or he's constantly looking at improving, changing. I mean, I've even noticed here in this match, his stance is slightly different to when I saw him batting, you know, three months.

Ago. In what.

Way? His right foot is a bit open. You know, his stance is a bit more open, which lets him be able to ax the same plane off the, you know, those front foot shots. It's to deal with the ball that's going away a bit easier. And these fellows here, as you know, bowling and stark, they don't miss, they're there every.

Ball. Yeah, they've been pretty relentless in the series. When did you know that you had something special on your hands? When he was growing.

Up. Yeah, I mean, growing up in Barbados. You know, in Barbados you play all sports and I think that's one of the benefits. Jacob, you know, used to play cricket. Barbados, he used to play football, he'd surf, he'd do triathlons, you know, swimming, cycling. But you know, we would go to the beach in Barbados when he was 6 or 7 and throw a ball and catching and throwing and feeling. And that's why he loves the feel inside of it. But from in Barbados, there's a primary schools cricket competition. Now this is boys that are under 10 and they're playing, they're playing 20 overs and with a hard ball, proper red ball stuff. If you go out, you get first ball, you're out. And he. We've got pictures of him, you know, when he was 6 years old walking up to bat, the stumps were taller than him. But he's facing a fellow who's 10, which is a big. And he just naturally from then, his technique, you know, he just from very, very small. People would come in Barbados just to watch Jacob batten. Not because he's hitting fours and sixes, but, you know, he just looked like a little tiny, perfect little cricketer. And as he's got bigger, you know, his technique is there and he's now got the strength to. When he does hit that ball through the covers or cut or flick, it does come off the bat and then it's moved into the T20 and 50 over. But Red ball is his thing. You know, this is what he wants to do. The red ball stuff, the T20 and 50 over. As a professional cricketer, that's obviously what you've got to do as well. And he'll change accordingly depending on what format it.

Is. Well, there'll be a lot of England supporters listening to that, would be very encouraged by that because obviously, you know, there's a lot of money to be made in them, their white ball hills and it, it can be potentially a distraction. And you know, you could also say that the fact that he played in the IPL last year meant they ended up not playing actually during the summer very much. Well, full stop. Actually played that one test at the oval and. And belatedly has come into the England side in this.

Series. Yeah, I mean, you know, we, we, we saw all that happening. You know, the position with the IPL is, as everybody would know, that was certainly not a decision of Jacob's to stay in India, although he did want to stay in India. That environment he was in was certainly one that would have improved his cricket. I mean, as I said, I spent a couple weeks and I saw what those fellows do and how they prepare for games and you know, chatted quite a bit with Andy Flower and more. More. So, yeah, he would have loved that, but he would also have loved to have got back to. And. And then unfortunately, when they had the issues between India and Pakistan that delayed everything by a week, 10 days. If not, it would have all worked out fine. Yeah, and then, you know, he comes back to, to England, had the West Indies white ball series, plays that, then you have the India series. Obviously he wasn't in the, in the side. You know, he's got to be at the games for the start of the match, then the championship games have started. So he had three or four weeks where it just wasn't, wasn't just working out, played a couple games and yeah, he just wasn't playing any matches. And he would say, he admitted, you know, he just felt that even when he played in that final tests, things just weren't right, you know, but that'll, that'll stand him in good stead. He'll know how to go through that again. And I think here in Australia he was in a very much similar situation. You know, not in the team to start with, but I think mentally he would have been ready for whenever he did get the call up and you know, he played a few games for the, for the Lions and got a, got a couple runs and, and he was, he would have been mentally ready for whenever, whenever he got into call it, which, which happened in.

Melbourne. Yeah, well, he taken his chance dramatically. That was a stunning innings yesterday. Is it true that Brian Lara said of him that when he was 11, that he's a, he's a better player at 11 than I.

Was? Well, in Barbados, Franklin Stevenson has his academy and Jacob, you know, we used to just drop Jacob off at the academy at, you know, 9 o' clock in the morning and pick him up at 6 and all sorts of people used to come through there and Brian, when he was in Barbados would always go to check in with Franklin and Jacob was playing down there one day in a, in a match, you know, invariably that would happen. He'd drop him off and he'd end up playing in a under 17 game and he was 11. And Brian was there one day and saw him batting and did say, you know, yeah, he's, he's certainly something that I, he's better than I was when I was 11. Brian actually invited Jacob to Trinidad to play in a T20 match to raise funds for the, you know, he wanted to put some, put some time and funds back into junior cricket in Trinidad. And we were invited down to Trinidad to play a T20 match. And we thought it would be a lot of juniors and Jacob was the only, he was 11 years old at that time. We played a T20 match at night in front of about four or five thousand people. Nicholas Pooran was playing Dwayne. Bravo, Darren. Bravo, Brian. And Jacob went out to bat with Brian Lara. Well, you asked if I get nervous. Well, I was more nervous that night. You know, he, he, he didn't get warm ball. He made about 20 batting with Brian Lara. And that was another. I mean, you know, these, these things just continue to, to happen. So yeah, no, Brian, we, we've, we, we know Brian and he certainly is, is in contact with us, you know, as Jacob keeps, keeps.

Progressing. So he's playing for England. I think I've read that you've said that you would have actually an ideal word, preferred him to play for West Indies. Is that true or.

Not? I mean, obviously I'm, I'm a, I'm a Barbadian. Okay. I mean, I, Jacob was able to obtain a British passport because of my time I spent in the UK and I got a British passport through naturalization. So Jacob then was able to get a British passport. He did his three years while he was at Rugby School to qualify. But yeah, I mean, I would have loved to play for the West Indies. So obviously I would love my son to play for the West Indies. But, you know, times are different and Jacob wanted to be a professional cricketer and he had the opportunity to go to Rugby School on a scholarship for five years, and we felt that was the best option for that to happen. To become a professional cricketer in the West Indies is a little more difficult. You know, you're only going to make a decent living playing cricket if you're playing for the West Indies in that top 15. That's why you see so many West Indians go and play in the T20, you know, because they get a little frustrated and they can go and play in the various franchise tournaments and, and make a decent living. Hence reason why as any West Indies des team then struggles because you're not selecting from the best.

Group. It's kind of a downward spiral, isn't.

It? It's a difficult situation. You know, fellas have to earn a living and you know, West Indies is difficult. We don't get the crowds. I mean, here what you've got 45,000 people. Melbourne 90, 95,000. A folk hasn't an oval is 15. And you know, you go to the other grounds when there's other teams. When England there it's full. But when you've got Sri Lanka or Bangladesh playing west indies, you've got 2,000 people. You know, it's difficult. So, yeah, that was a decision that was, was Made. And Jacob really, from the time he came to England and saw the facilities and saw the. The way people prepare and he.

Trained. So he came to England at.

What age he would have come to England the first time with the Franklin Stevenson Tour, the Taunton Cricket Festival now at King's College in Somerset. Josh Butler, that's where Joss went to school. Jacob would have come up to that in 2015. He would have been 11. And that's a week of cricket you play, you know, and then 11's from Northamptonshire, Yorkshire, whatever. So he would have played against those and, and just loved it. Love, love the, the cricket and the facilities, you know, to see pitches and practice nets and you have as much time to do whatever because he loves, that's one thing with, with Jacob, he's a he, He. He loves training, he loves practicing, he loves fit being fit. You know, he'll. He. I know for sure. He'll. He'll go in his sauna every evening, he gets back to the hotel. He'll what he eats. You know, he's. And he's been doing that now.

So totally dedicated for a.

While. Yeah. Yeah, because he, he needs, you know, playing all three formats. He knows he has to keep fit. He had a stress fracture of his back sort of early 2023 and he missed quite a bit of cricket or he was limited as to what he could do in. In 2023. So he trained hard that winter. And then 2024 is when he. He did well, you know, in the vitality blast the hundred. And it just sort of. It's hard to think that's only sort of 16, 18 months ago. Lots.

Happened. Graham, I'm gonna let you go in just a moment. Thanks very much for coming out, but what's your link with Tony.

Cozier? Tony Kozia was my godfather. Yeah. My, My mum and dad were very friendly with Tono and his wife Jillian. So, yeah, they, you know, very friendly. In Barbados, I came along. They were my godparents. Tono's son Craig, you know, very friendly. My mother is his godmother. And you know, unfortunately, both Tono and Jillian have passed away. My dad's no longer here. Mom is still in Barbados, you know, keeping a close eye on her and Craig. Yeah, we see Craig and Natalie in Barbados frequently. Nathalie is very friendly with my. My. My wife Giselle. So, yeah, Nicole's ears and the Bethels have been friends for a long.

Time, really close, while Tony, of course, was a colleague of ours on. On Test Match Special for. Yeah, for many years. So Just a. Just a final point, then. So what do you. When are you next going to watch, Jacob? Do you go back to the Caribbean and then just watching from a distance or you. Do you travel around the.

World? No, watching him, unfortunately, I have a business to run, as does my wife. So we are heading back tomorrow. Work on Monday morning in Barbados. Jacob now leaves here and, you know, after here is Sri Lanka and then after Sri Lanka is the World cup, then he's got the ipl and. But we try to. My. My son is going down to Sri Lanka. He couldn't make it here to Australia, so he'll go there for a couple weeks. So he'll see in there. We probably will be next time. We'll see Jacob. Probably will be June in England, you know, when we. When we go up. Jacob's younger sister is graduating from Newcastle.

University. So is that Laura, is.

It? That's.

Rebecca. Rebecca.

Yeah. So that's the next. That'll be the next trip. Yeah. And then who knows after.

That. Well, what a memorable trip this has been for.

You. Has been. Yes.

Yeah. And a very proud dad indeed. Yeah. Well, lovely to meet.

You.

Yes. And she doesn't tell the story. Yes. Great. And we. We saw you up on the big screen yesterday, you know, when he was celebrating out there. It's fabulous. And goodness knows what it must be.

Like. I get a lot of pressure, you know, they give Steve Smith a lot of pressure because. So I'm crying on it Telly. Well, I'm singing that song TMS at the.

Ashes. Well, that was a lovely chat hearing from Graham Bethel, Jacob Bethel's father, who'd made the journey to Sydney to watch his son play that quite brilliant innings at the scg. So that's pretty much it from here in Sydney and indeed from this Men's Ashes series. It's been a fascinating series, I think. One that has surprised, delighted at times, shocked at others, ultimately disappointing from England's perspective and certainly plenty of more questions than answers, I would say. One final thought from you, Stefan, as we sit here in the sunshine.

There'S a couple of things, really. We live a cricket bubble, don't we? And we certainly have done for the past seven weeks. Here we are the day after the Ashes series has finished. We're sitting in Circular Quay, one of the most iconic spots in the world. You wouldn't know, would you, that, like, a major sporting event has been going on in this country for the past two months? Because life moves on. It's glorious here. And I think, you know, you and I Henry, certainly when we've spoken about this tour over the past few months, we've spoken about how disappointing it's been on the field, how disappointed it's been from England's point of view. But I'll tell you what, it's been brilliant, hasn't it, to follow it, the moments that we've seen. I know that England haven't been great, but some of the things that we've seen, remember back to Perth and Travis Head and Zach Crawley nicking off and Joe Roots hundred at the.

Gabba. Joffre Archer's first.

Over. Joffre Archer. The Snicko controversy warnies everyone tipping their hats at the MCG to Shane Warne. Jacob Bethel, we've just heard from his dad. Been a privilege to follow it around.

Australia. Hear.

Hear. It's been enormous fun and thank you so much for listening and for joining our coverage over the course of the last few weeks. That's it from the Test Match special podcast. So much to look forward to though. The cricket never stops. Of course. We have BBL commentary continuing on five Sports Extra and BBC Sounds and we'll have than a month away from the start of the T20 World Cup. Thank you so much for joining us. Thanks for listening. Thanks to our team who have been here as well and we look forward to speaking to you soon. The TMS podcast on BBC.

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