The Ashes: Where did England go wrong?

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, welcome to the TMS pod where for the next hour we'll talk England losing the Ashes in record time after they went 30 down to Australia in April Adelaide. And joining us to do that, former England spinner Phil Tufnell, ex Aussie bowler Jason Gillespie and England batter David Muller. Tough as I am, I joined 5Live nearly 16 years ago. So how many of these do you think? How many of these do you think we have done in that time? Five maybe.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's been a little bit disappointing, hasn't it? But at least, at least we got on the plane with confidence, you know, at least we had that sort of shred to flicker to hang on to. But yeah, no, it's been a little bit disappointing, hasn't it? We've flickered for sure and we've had Some situations where if we've only just sort of nailed them down, things might have been a little bit different. But it's difficult down here, mate. It really is. You know, these guys, they know their own conditions, they're what, they've got a world class bowling attack and, and David will sort of like mention that, I'm sure. And it's just difficult. You know, when we, when we came down there, we had Warner, McGrath and Gillespie sit, sitting over there. I can see him smiling there, looking at me through the zoom call to try and get away and, and this time they've got the likes of Cummins and Lion and, and all these kind of guys and it's just tough. But yeah, I think England will be disappointed as well, you know, they'll be.

Very disappointed because they, Yeah, I would hope so.

Yeah. I mean, well, yes, it's not as easy as that. No, I know, you know, sitting there, you know, it's difficult. These guys know how to perform and I think what they did as well, because I think they would, they were, they were a bit worried, you know, they were worried that, you know, they had some injury problems and some sort of, you know, some, some chinks in the armor in that top order and what have you. And they were concerned and we kind of gave it to them a little bit in a funny sort of way.

I, I, I don't know what, I don't know how many years you could go back memory wise, David here, but Jonathan Agnew in his article for BBC Sport described it as the most disappointing that he can remember and maybe that disappear. Yeah, but maybe, maybe part of that disappointment, David, stems from the hope actually before they went.

Yeah, definitely. I think the times that I went especially, I think if we were pretty honest with ourselves, we weren't as good a team as what the Aussies were. I think this time when you look at where Australia were with injuries, a few question marks over there, batting lineup, who was going to play, who wasn't going to play, that England actually had a really settled team over the last three years and we all thought the way they'd played and the way they'd approached it that they had a plan and they were going to be very competitive coming over this year. So I think the disappointment for them all and for us is that we thought this was going to be closer than what it was and it hasn't even looked like it was going to be close at all.

So there is Jason, then, a sense of disappointment from the Aussie perspective that it's Been so easy.

Yeah, look, I think there's a little bit of disappointment, I suppose that hasn't been, I suppose, more of a. More of a challenge. But England, let's not forget England have had that, had their opportunities, you know, no more so than lunchtime, day two, 99 runs in front. You know, for me that was a, that was a key moment in the whole series, to be perfectly honest. I mean ultimately England have underperformed because they're under prepared. It is as. As easy as you like, as simple as you like. Just keep it as. As simple as that. Underprepared. Underperformed. Because this is. Is actually a very talented side that it's going into the series. If you remember, England were far more settled than the Australian side. So. Yeah, so they'll see this as a, a bit of disappointment to mine.

Okay, let's get on to the preparation and to set this up. Although Jason has already done that. Let's HEAR From Brendan McCollum with Jonathan Agnew after the match.

I'll acknowledge that. And there's no exact science but you know, obviously we haven't won. So therefore you point back to things you could have done or might have done differently and say if you're in that same situation next time, would you make change? And they are the conversations you've got to mull over in your own head and obviously around the squad as well.

Yeah, I guess you're talking about preparation. Is that sort of pre first test preparation you would do differently again?

Yeah, probably. I mean, not just that, but also the five intense training days leading into Brisbane where we knew it was going to be hot. And I think there's just a few things that you look at retrospectively and you've got to be careful because you need conviction in what your methods are. But also you're not too ignorant to admit that if you haven't quite got something right, and I'll put my hand up on that, that's your job as coaches to try and you try and get performance on the field. And then when you don't get performance, you look back on some things which you might not have quite got right. And I was confident that we had it right, but obviously we didn't because we haven't played as well as we should have.

Now the preparation is going to be debated and discussed and Jase has already mentioned it and Brendan McCollum gave his answer there. My question to you, Phil, on their preparation is they decided to do things what's worked for them in previous overseas series might not have been the way other England teams have done it when they've gone down under. But let's be honest, not much has worked preparation wise for any England team that's gone down under. So what was wrong, what is wrong in trying something different as they did that has worked for them on previous overseas series?

Well, yeah, and that's what they were thinking. You know, we used to play everyone, we used to play them, you know, we used to play the farmers 11s. We used to play all the 11s. You know, we won nothing either. So. But I think as he said there, he's put his hand up there and he said if before you're going to Perth and before you go to Brisbane, sort of bouncy Australian pitches, I think that, you know, you should have perhaps had a warm up game at the Whacker or played a little bit more harder cricket if you can get those kind of games. You know, I mean, the sort of counterpoint to that is that those games don't exist anymore. You know, you're not playing the opposition that you need to play for a warm up game before a huge sort of test series. And so I think that that's going to be addressed, you know, from the hierarchy, so to speak. Yeah, I think they got that wrong. Perth and Brisbane are completely different kind of pitches to what England English batsmen are used to. Having said that, you've got to adjust to your game and you've got to realize that as well. But it would have been better. And Brendan has stuck his hand up there and said, listen, we should have had some decent practice on some fast bouncy pitches just to get into that sort of hardened groove.

Okay, if. What would you have done for preparation, Jason?

I think the question Phil's alluded to it is how long out from that first test was questions asked or requests to utilise facilities in Perth, that is the waca. How far out? Because if this series has been three years in the making, which is all I've heard from the ecb, if you're planning three years ahead, surely you're booking facilities well in advance. And there hasn't been any clarity on exactly when the question was asked about utilizing for instance the WACA facilities. I know India booked the WACA well in advance, well before any Sheffield Shield or women's BVL schedules were put in place. So the BCCI came in and booked it all and did an eight to 10 day block where they had center wicket training scenarios. I had all the nets available. They had, they had Little simulations on the fast, bouncy surface. But I'd love to know when. When England first made that. That first phone call or first email about.

Right.

Can we lock in these facilities at these times? Because I'm not sure that was done very much in advance.

Yeah, Chappas. I think even the Barmy army had a game at the Wacket. So I think they're even more. They were better prepared than the English.

The interesting thing, David here is that pre series we did a show like this and Michael Vaughan was sitting next to me at the time and I think Tuffers was doing it as well. And he said it wasn't necessarily who the games were against in the warmups. He said his worry about that game against the Lions was that it was going to be played on a surface that was going to be nothing like what they were going to then have to contend with once they got to Perth. And you as a batter will presumably go along with that and understand that fully.

Personally, as a batter, I want to be playing and preparing in the conditions that I'm going to be playing in. You know that for me, if I was to put my hand up, if someone was to say, what would you like to do? I'm playing at Perth in the first one. I'd like to prepare on a wicket that is similar to Perth as what I'm going to get on. I think historically we always would go into Perth initially and train at Perth and then move to Brisbane for the first test because it was. I think it's an easier flight and then you get used to the bouncy of your wickets and you move to Brisbane. This first test was in. In Perth and they had the opportunity to do that. So it is a strange decision that they didn't book everything that they did and they didn't plan ahead. As you said, three years in the making. All we've ever heard for the last three years is about the Ashes and we're getting this one fit for the Ashes and we're going to build for this and we can prepare for that. And to miss an opportunity like that in such a big series I think is a bit of a schoolboy error. And as a player, I would have liked to have prepared in those conditions.

Having said that, having said that, everyone knows what the conditions are in Perth and Brisbane. You know, as a batter, David, you know, you know, don't. Don't drive on the up. You know, you don't need to have endless nets to know not to driving the up at Perth I was talking some of the Australians, even the shield sides. Is this right? Does he. Even the shield sides go to Wacker and sort of get rolled over by the Western Australians, don't they?

Oh, well, it's. It's a tough place to play, there's no question of that. But yeah, it's. Yeah, it's. It's very obvious in shield cricket. You know, in Perth, you don't try to play with a half a bat outside, off stump to the offside to a length ball. That's just cricket. 101 in Australia. That's what you don't do in Perth. And unfortunately, from an England perspective, that's exactly what we saw in Perth in that first test.

Yeah. So it doesn't matter necessarily. Sometimes if you, you know, you can have all the nets and all the hard cricket as well, but if you keep playing on the up outside. Yeah, it's not like it was a surprise. Oh, no one knew this. Crikey. Mickey Stewart told us this about 30 years ago.

Yeah, but. But that brings me back to the preparation point, David, really, you can understand England going, I think the last five series abroad, they've had a camp, not in the country that they've been playing in, haven't they? And then have arrived quite late. And they've won four of the first in those series. They've won four of the five first tests. So there is a method that has worked for them. That's my point, I suppose.

Yeah. And that's what Brendan McCullum was alluding to there. It's something that they've done well over the last two or three years where they've gone to overseas, they prepared a certain way and they want to stick with what they thought would work. But when you're preparing for so long for such a big series and you're putting all your eggs in one basket for such a series, you want to give yourself the best opportunity to perform in those conditions. My argument is I don't think they should have gone to New Zealand. The white ball should have gone to New Zealand. I think they should have come earlier to Australia, got acclimatized and given themselves more time to prepare. And yes, it's not all about nets. It's not about hitting a thousand balls every day in the nets. It's just getting used to the conditions. It's understanding what works at certain grounds. You know, Brisbane and Perth is different to Adelaide. Adelaide's a slow wicket. It's easy to score runs. It's easy to stay in at Adelaide Wacker can be fast scoring, but you have to get used to the wicket. Those first 20, 30 balls is understanding how you want to go about it and that, I guess the longer you're in the country, the more you get used to the conditions. You ask people that have played in those conditions. You get people in that are able to explain to you how to work and how to score runs in those conditions. And. And I think they've just missed that opportunity.

I think also it's execution, Chappers, you know, it's execution as well. You know, as you said, you can net and net and net. What's that famous story about, you know, Sachin Tendulkar not getting any runs and then puts away the COVID drive and then scores 100, you know what I mean? So even the best in the world have to think about it and just to not have it sort of ingrained in your mind as a batter and a bowler in certain different conditions, you know, you're going to come a cropper. So it's execution. It's about being precise in what you do. And I'm afraid England haven't been precise.

What would you. How would you have felt, David, if you were in the squad, having lost the first two tests, knowing that this Noosa trip was then planned? Would you have been. Would you have been uncomfortable with the optics of that trip? And I do take into account here, as I ask you this question, Ben Stokes, as sort of, you know, everything being viewed with the benefit of hindsight.

Look, I think there's a balance. Personally, I'm not a massive drinker, so I'd probably avoid sitting on the beach and having a couple of beers in public. I think the frustrating thing with all of that is I think England, we're aware of what Australia is like from a media point of view. They understand how big the Ashes are, they understand the scrutiny under. Now, I fully support the players getting away, having a day off, having one or two days away. I fully support that. You're not robots, you're human beings. You have to get out of the hotel. You have to be able to live a life. Yes, they've lost some, some, Some cricket in two and three days. They. They haven't performed how they want, but they have to be able to get away without that scrutiny. But sometimes you have to be smarter with how you do it. One or two days and then disappearing maybe onto a golf course and doing things in a bit of. On a private side, I think that helps a bit. But look, it sounds like this was all Planned this whole trip, Tanousa was planned way in advance. Everything was part of their plan to win the Ashes. Obviously the first two tests hadn't gone to plan and they'd stuck to that. Whether they should have changed, whether they should have maybe adapted that a little bit and maybe cut it shorter by a day or avoided the public eye for a day, I think they could probably look at that in future.

Do you know the interesting thing that stands out for me in all of this, Jason? And this is Stefan Shemuel, the BBC's chief cricket reporter who wrote an article on this, is that over the course of that time that they were in Noosa, the conditioning coach invited the entire group for a run along the. But this is important, Phil. I think the entire group for a run along the coast at quarter to 8 in the morning.

Yeah.

And Jamie Smith and Sherb Bashir and Josh Tongue were the only players to turn out for that. And you talked to so many professional sports teams. If it's an invite or optional, it's probably advisable to turn up.

Look, look, I think I've always believed, you know, optional is, is optional. If it's not optional, don't say it's optional because we'll take the option. You know, Stefan made some great points in his article. I read that through. You know, I just think overall the whole noosetrip, I think Darwin made point of it. The optics of it were horrific. And the reason I say that is because England got rolled in two days in Perth there was an opportunity to do some get some cricket with the pink ball in Canberra and the reason for not going there was said because the conditions were so foreign to what they were going to get in Brisbane. Well, the conditions were pretty foreign before that match in Perth as well and yet that was deemed acceptable. And so England chose not to go to Canberra to, to get adjusted under the, under the lights with the pink ball. Admittedly it was a bit cooler there. I was actually there with the ABC commentating on that game. Yes, it was a little bit cooler and yeah, the, the conditions were a little bit different but Josh Tongue still turned up. Matthew Potts played as did Jacob Bethel. Josh Tongue actually bowled very well and he got to bowl pink crew ball under lights, got 20 sets of overs in and you can't tell me that that did not benefit Josh Tongue because I thought when he, when he got the opportunity in Adelaide, I thought he bowled beautifully. So, you know, and a lot of the optics about that noose of troop because in Canberra, not many of the players had actually played a pink ball game. So I'll be honest, I found that absolutely staggering that more of the England side, particularly after getting beaten inside two days weren't there in Canberra. It was a two day game, it was a two day game. It wasn't as if it was a four day and they had all that time spare. And I personally just think England missed the trick there.

Let's widen this out and this could go in, this could go in all sorts of different directions within the same discussion because this is about talking about the bowling attack, the bowling options. It's, it's about the selection of the squad and it involves county cricket as well. And it's a, it's a huge subject and we could go in any direction. But when you look at the squad, Phil and I read this in one of the papers this morning. The, the going into the Ashes, the main spinner selected didn't have a county contract. The backup, the backup batter hasn't got a first class entry and the wicket keeper doesn't wear the gloves for his county. What does, does that tell you, thinking outside the box? Does that tell you something else?

I thought, well, you pick, you. You pick on talent and you pick on feel, but you've also got to pick on a body of work that you've done, haven't you? Simple as that for your county. That's what you think county cricket is all about and that's why it's there, really. I think Jamie Smith, I think, might be a little bit different, but I think they've backed themselves into a hole with show, with Bashir. And I feel for him, I feel for the lad, really. I don't. Listen, I haven't been privy to how he's been going and how his confidence is around the group and what have you. But if you're ever going to pick a spinner and, and you've. He is your specialist spinner, he's surely got to play Adelaide. It's as simple as that. And they didn't play him. So I don't know what he's like, you know, in the back, you know, behind the scenes and what have you. But if I was showing Bashir, I would have been absolutely fuming that, that is. You got to pick him. Otherwise why is he here? I can't necessarily see him playing at the mcg. I can't necessarily see him playing at, at the scg. So he was sort of, he's been sort of groomed, hasn't he? And he's done all right. For England he's taken wickets for England, he's done well. And so they've got themselves into this sort of like no win situation when now all of a sudden he's become sort of unselectable and that's not a good thing. You know you've got. Yeah, I don't know whether that's selection or you know, who's actually sort of like who was responsible for him not playing at Adelaide. I can't understand it.

What do they do? Do you look at it David and go what are they doing?

Well, I, I was surprised with the Adelaide selection. I thought they should have had a frontline spinner there, there in Sydney. From my experience spinners play a big role so it'd be interesting to see what they do at Sydney if they do bring him in. To be fair, my experience in Australia spin plays a big role. You look at historically you've had Shane Warne and you've had Nathan Lyon who've taken bucket loads of wickets in Australia and I think it complements the, the pace bowling attacks. So I was surprised. To be fair, I can see why they went with Will Jackson.

I thought yeah David, other spinners haven't taken too many wickets there. I mean you've mentioned two of the greats there. If I think we, we did have a little look at the stats. You know, opposition spinners come in, you know that they are more of a holding role than a wicket taking option. Really. Sorry.

Yeah.

And on that it's whether England need that with the pace bowlers that they've got. They've got guys that they want to come in and attack. They're not worried about economy rates. So somewhere they have to be able to control, control the rate and if that means they need a spinner to do that then they have to pick the best spinner to be able to do that. They obviously thought Will Jax who, who is a fine cricketer, someone that can bat eight and give them a few, a few overs with a spin to balance their attack was, was the right option. I don't think in Adelaide that was the right option. Maybe at, with the pink ball or maybe at Perth where they thought they weren't going to bowl much spin. Different story but I think a frontline spinner plays a big part.

I mean yeah, you're not going to be a part time spinner in Australia and, and be successful. Yeah, yeah, be successful. It's as simple as that. You're not even going to be able to do a holding role. Sorry dude.

No, I was Just going to jump in. Look, I think it's missing the whole point. We can talk about spinners, whatever the wheel jack selection was because England aren't confident in their top six batting. That is a bit. Because what they did say, Ben Stokes at the post match said, oh, the toss was important. I mean gee whiz, if you're picking will Jacks, you're not thinking day four and five do bowl to victory by batting first. You can't be because.

Jason Jeetan Patel said that in one, in one of, you know, one of the, we'll send an assistant coach out to do the, the media afterwards. He said we were, we were backed into a corner by the batters in selecting world Jacks.

Yeah. So for me that again there's more mixed messaging coming out of this camp because Ben Stike said he would have loved the opportunity to bat first. But if you're winning the toss and batting first with that lineup, it doesn't make sense. That lineup you would bowl first every day of the week because you're backing yourself to chase, because you're not backing your spinner. Because I mean Will Jackson, as Darwin said, he, look, he's a, he's a foreign cricketer but I mean he went at five and over, five and a half and over. But that's okay because he's a part time spinner. That's what part time spinners do. They aren't good enough to go to the last three and over. Yes, Phil. Sorry mate.

Yeah, no, no, and I agree. And ended up bowling virtually the most overs in each. Bowling most overs in each innings. So why are you asking that of your part time spinner if you end up bowling him? I think it was the most overs in both innings and he's gone, he's gone for 200. Now even simple mathematics is if you put a full time spinner in there, you can knock 100 runs off of that. Yeah.

And on that the last series you played, I know it was a pink ball test but England didn't actually play a spinner at Adelaide and they had Ollie Robertson bowling off spin at one point because it started to turn and they needed a spinner. So it's almost like they didn't learn from the mistakes from the last series which were actually spin does play a role at certain grounds and you need your best spinner to play there.

And actually that example David is probably the most, I mean unforgivable. He's going overboard. But when we talk about preparation actually and what goes into it then it's stuff like that that you would find it hard to believe that they hadn't gone back and analyzed that given. Given everything that goes into a modern day cricket team.

Yeah, and Dizzy mentioned that there. The selection has been confusing because so far under Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum, they picked the team that they think is the best team to win that specific test. But they've come over to Australia and they seem like they've just tried to fill a couple of gaps and try to lengthen the batting and try and keep staying the game for as long as possible. We're actually. What's your best opportunity to win the game in Australia? You need to take 20 wickets to win the game. It's as simple as that. You can score 400 runs, whatever you are, if you cannot bowl Australia at twice, you're wasting your time. And they have to give themselves the best opportunity to do that by picking the bowlers that can do that.

Yeah, but I mean, but then in defense of that as well, we've all been there on tours down under. You know, you don't, you get rolled out and you start going, crikey, how can I just sort of like strengthen the back end of the innings and what have you? So, you know, and, or can he take the gloves? Is Ollie Pope going to take the glove? Stewie, Stewie, can you wicket, keep captain and bat, you know, and open the batting, it very quickly unravels.

So, guys, I've always felt if you're looking to strengthen the batting, I just wonder psychologically, subconsciously, your top six, potentially, even if only one of them thinks that they might just relax a bit, go, oh, well, we've got a bit of extra support down the batting order. Whereas Peter say, no, this is our top six, this is our keeper and this is our best bowling attack to take 20 wickets. I think just sometimes we can just get too cute and overthink things. Sometimes. Cricket's actually quite a simple game and sometimes we just get confused. We look at statistics, we look at, look at all sorts of different metrics. Sometimes, yes, you have statistics, they're a tool in order to help you make good decisions.

Right.

But ultimately you need to look at what's in front of you. You need to either look up, like, look up and there's conditions. We might have a bowl, but ultimately you look at the surface that's in front of you and you make a call, you take into account the stats and any other statistical metric you want, but ultimately you look at what's in front of you. And you have your basic plan of how you want to go about it. Back your top six to get the job done with the bat and back your bowlers to take 20 wickets, whatever that structure looks like. Is it three and one, is it three and one with an all rounder or is it two and two?

Yeah. And if you are looking for a spinner to do a holding role, who can hold a bat, they picked the wrong frontline spinner, didn't they? Simple as that for me. Of course you feel that show IB has been sort of groomed for this tour. Tall, high release, bounce. Well, you can understand him not playing at Perth and you can understand him perhaps not playing at Brisbane and everything, but then just Adelaide was where he had to spin or you got to have a look for someone else, I'm afraid.

So what's going to. What have they been doing then, Phil?

I'm not quite sure. They backed themselves into a bit of a hole with the spin bowler. Simple as that. If you want someone like that, you look at a Jack Leaks or a Liam Dawson or something like that, then if it does turn, they can come into the game. But if not, they can, you know, they can work away at an end and perhaps go at, you know, two and a half, three and a half and over and pick up the odd wicket and then bolster the batting a little bit. Yeah, they backed themselves into a bit of a hole with Sherry. But I feel for him actually because he's going to be having a tough old time at the moment.

But then, but then he, he is one one of a few who have, who have sort of appeared to come out of nowhere and into the England setup, David, isn't he? And therefore, you know, Liam Dawson is, is a, you know, a, a stalwart of, of county cricket. His figures back up his, his ability. And yet it feels, it feels, doesn't it to a lot of people that England always want to go outside the box. Now what, what does that say to county cricketers?

That's a very good question actually. You know, Liam Dawson played the last Test in England, you know, at Manchester. He played and, and then suddenly wasn't on the tour. They, they picked someone who hadn't played, played for two years, which was surprising. It took me a bit by surprise. I would have probably had what Liam Dawson would have been in my 15 going to, to the Ashes. Someone who combat a bit, gives everything and can bowl your left arm spin something a bit different. You've got Joe Root, he can bowl you a few offies if you need it in a game. But your best spinner holding role in Australia probably would have been Liam Dawson right now. So, as Tougher said, I feel for, for Bashir, but England have been quite consistent with their selections over the last couple of years in, in the case of identifying someone on what they look like, what their attributes are and identifying what they think is going to be a good international cricketer. So they've stuck with that game plan, they've stuck with how they've gone with that selection. It's worked at times. But as you said, you're looking at a squad now where you've got a spinner who they're not picking, they've got a guy who hasn't scored a first class hundred, batting at three or potentially coming in to replace a batter if they drop someone for the fourth and the fifth test. And it's how you can keep producing county cricket is to want to play for England if it doesn't really matter what you do well.

And a director of cricket. And again, this isn't, with hindsight, Jason, this is a year ago probably we had this discussion on the show, well, maybe in the summer. So maybe six months ago, director of county cricket said to me, you are getting players thinking at county cricket. Well, what is the point of me racking up, you know, this number of wickets or this number of runs in Red Bull cricket? Because it isn't going to get me into the England team. So actually I might go and look at white ball cricket because it'll be more lucrative here, there and everywhere.

Yep, that's spot on. That's. Look, and I think Phil touched on it just before you pick, you identify talent, you know, reviews talent, attributes, whatever, and that's fine, but there's got to be a body of evidence, as Phil said, you've got to find that balance. You can't just go purely on statistics and, and you know, because then you don't need selectors, you just, you just look at the county championship. You go right, who scored the most rounds, who's taking the most wickets and pick a team. That's not how you pick international teams because there are, and with all due respect to good county players is good chef and shoe players. I don't necessarily have the attributes of the game to be successful at the next level that they're, they're essentially playing their, their test matches at county level because that's their level and then you've got the attributes. So, so we've seen over the last couple of years England have kicked on Attributes, so Charlotte Bashir's one, Josh Hull is another one. You know, guys that haven't got any sort of evidence of work at the lower level, which can be construed or seen as a bit of a slap in the face of the county game. Look, I've been involved in county cricket over the years. I played a bit, I coached a bit. It's a much maligned competition for some reason by the ecb. I don't. I think it's a, It's a lot better than it's given credit for, you know, particularly some of the battles and you know, Darwood would have played this. Some of the battles in Division one is good, quality, hard first class cricket and I just feel the ECB sometimes just doesn't give it the love that it deserves.

Yeah, Jase, just a point on that. I mean, I've been doing some work with the ABC and it's been fascinating listening to the other side of it as well. Darren Lehman said that sometimes you're in that bubble, aren't you? You're in the battle and what have you and the whole team. And what Darren Lehman said, well, sometimes you've got to have the selectors or the, you know, the group, someone a fresh set of eyes that hasn't been involved in the fray come out and say, right, Showib has to play. You know what I mean? So it has to play at Adelaide because this is what we've picked him for. Is that sort of correct?

Yeah. And Darren has said a number of times when he was coach of Australia that the selectors have said, look, our job is to help improve the team and this is the way we want to get. This is your 12 and you need to pick an 11 that this guy's going to play. He used a couple of examples when he was coach. I think Mitchell Marsh was picked to play in Perth ahead of Peter Hanscom and Darren and Michael Clark, who was captain at the time, actually. So now we want to keep the same team. We're two nil up, but Greg Chappell was a selector and he's gone. Well, no, our job here is to make the team better. So we're going to pick Mitchell Marsh and Mitchell Bosh, I think, went on and got 150 in that test match. And there was another example with picking Adam Boges. But I think what I found really fascinating has been Darren Lehman had his first season coaching Northamptonship in the county championship in 2025. He doesn't even know who the selectors are. He's never seen A selector or spoken to a selector and he's a former Aussie coach who's in county cricket, you would think someone would have had a conversation with him about conditions, about team selection and that going to Australia. I actually found that absolutely staggering. And the reason I find that staggering is I coached South Australia for four years up until last year. And every Sheffield Shield game that South Australia played there was either a selector on duty or a selector would ring and speak to myself specifically just about the game, about the team, about a couple of players that they're keeping an eye on. And there was just really clear communication processes and the way Darren's speaking, Darren Lehman, that doesn't seem to be happening in the English game.

Were those clear communication processes here when you were coaching here or has it always been less communication here than there?

No, no. So when I was coaching, as I use the example at Yorkshire 2012 to 2016, I'd have regular contact with selectors, like the coaches at the time, we would just check in and just say how's such and such going, they're how they're going and the like and enjoying watching so and so bat or bowl. And it was just, it wasn't like, wasn't a weekly chat or anything, it was just every now and again just checking in.

But, but also you are, you are eyes and ears not just for your own team but who you may have seen in opposition as well.

Absolutely. And that a lot of that was that. I remember being at Yorkshire and a couple of the players floating about. I noticed that you guys played and this team the other week and there's a couple of young players there with any thoughts on these guys and it was just like very laid back chats, like very casual conversations. But it's communication, isn't it? And you know, you can't over communicate.

So tough as you said this several times tonight about how difficult it is to tour Australia. So Glenn McGrath in his BBC Sport article today, which you can find on the website, says if this long winless streak is not down to ability, it must be down to mentality. So often I hear the English talk of how difficult it is to come to Australia getting sledged at the airport or in restaurants. England players talk about having to take on the entire country rather than just the team. Can England players get themselves into a state of mind where they relish a tour of Australia rather than talking it up as the hardest thing they will ever do? There is certainly a difference in mindset between the two countries. Does he have a point Well, I.

Think when you say, you know how difficult it is to tour Australia, it's because they just know how to play on their pitches better than we do, you know what I mean? And they're grooved. I mean, as David was saying, look at that bowling attack. Look at our bowling attack when we did that. We were. But, you know.

So it's not mentality.

No, Well, I don't think it is. There's a little bit of that and, and that has to be broken at some stage. I mean, you know, I think it was like 17 or 18 Test matches or something. We haven't won a game here for, you know. I will say something though. The, the last Test mass, the last Test match at Adelaide was our best worst test match we've ever played. It was the closest we'd ever got in about 25 years. So, you know, there is progress there, there is progress there, but I think it's just about. I mean, look at the way Pat Cummins bowled. I mean, it was, it was an absolute masterclass. He hasn't. You talk about preparation. He's been injured, he hasn't had a game of cricket and he comes back and he bowls that top of off stump line. Doesn't loot it. Okay, leave that area. I mean, it's just so, so difficult to play against when we, I think sometimes try to. I think sometimes you come to Australia and you want to face them, you know, you want to stand up, you want to put your flag in the ground and say, right, you know, there's big crowds. We're going to go and show you. Sometimes, you know, there are different, different ways to skin a cat. And I think sometimes, you know, you've got to be a little bit defensive. You've got to just hit the top of off stump in trying to bounce them out. What is the point to keep trying to bounce out Travis Head because he's going to hit you for 190, you know what I mean? Sometimes you've got to bore them out. But I think sometimes we lose our patience in Australia and that, you know, and we're not. That's the one criticism I will have about this England team. I don't think they're a patient team. You know, you can't win a test match. I know it's an old saying, but you can't win a test match in the first session, but you can lose it.

Did you think, David, when you toured there, I'm going to relish this? Or this is going to be the hardest thing that I've done well.

The first time I went to Australia, I remember Stuart Broad speaking to me about how tough it was going to Australia, how the abuse you get and the media and, you know, I actually didn't think I was going to come back alive by the, the way he was talking to me.

I nearly didn't.

But after that first test and after, I mean we actually had, funny enough talking about preparation. The first time we went, we had I think three or four warm up games. The second time we went because of COVID we only had one token warm up game amongst ourselves. So the results were the same. So I guess there was no past experience to say apart from the Strauss tour, this is what works. But after that first day at the Gabba in the, in 2017, I think we were 250 for three overnight it actually felt like actually, you know what, this is just a normal game of cricket. It's not, it's not what everyone's built it out to be. We weren't getting abused yet by the crowd. We weren't in trouble. And then after that the wheel started to fall off. Australia beat you and we did some silly things and you know, we were in the press doing some things and suddenly then you bunker down and then it becomes everyone's on you and then it just feels like everything's suddenly sort of against you in Australia. And it's how you manage that, I think is going to be how England will win test matches moving forward in Australia over the years.

Yeah. Just to counter that a little bit though, chubby. You know, Australia haven't won since 2001 in England.

No. And that. And, and that was what I was going to say to Jason. Does it, does it go the other way?

Absolutely, yeah.

Look, listen to both you guys talk. Look, for me, I think Glenn makes pretty valid points about the mentality side of it. There is an air of pessimism at times that when you hear from England players and even some English commentators that talk about how difficult it is, well, well, no kidding, it's, it's test cricket. Test cricket is hard work. But you find a way. You, because if you, if you talk about how hard it is all the time and how it's so much of a challenge, you're already thinking the end result, you're not actually thinking about what, what your process is in order to succeed. And I think Glenn's point is quite valid. You know, going to England, we knew it was going to be a challenge. We always knew. Even when, you know, when I played first most part of my career or the first part of my career. We had a little bit of success over there. We knew we were going to cop it in the media. You were going to cop it from the crowds. I mean, I've caught more abuse from English crowds than anywhere in the world. But you just embrace it. You have a choice, right? You have a choice. You can either mope around and think, this is going to be hard or, and this is, it's going to be tough, it's going to be a big challenge, or you just sort of go, you know what? I'm relishing this opportunity. I'm going to just do everything I can and I'm going to, I'm going to laugh at it. I'm going to stick my chest out and I'm going to put my best foot forward. Sorry, sorry, Paul.

No, no, it's all right. And the other thing, the other thing, when you're touring, you know what I mean? And it's just not in Australia and everything, just go back to Brisbane, you know, go down to Brisbane and those five drop catches we had in Brisbane, for some reason you're not dropping them in England. I don't know what happens to you, you know, or that the run out, you know, we always used to sit there and scratch our head going, why does Alan Border hit the stumps on every run out? And why does Ricky Ponton hit the stumps when we just miss them, we just miss them, you know.

Can I tell you why? Should I tell you why? Yeah. Practice. Ricky Ponting, like I lost count of how many times at the end of practice he'd go out just with the fielding coach or with one of his teammates and throw at the stumps for another hour. He'd pick up balls, he'd do one handed, he'd be doing turnaround and he'd be throwing at one stump. He would do that on. I've watched him personally do that for 100 hours minimum.

Isn't it interesting how in all this talk that we can do about preparations and county cricket and so on and so forth, it's the little things that can sometimes change the momentum. And it could be, you know, the last time England won the ash in Australia, it was there was a run out in Adelaide, wasn't there? Right, right near the start that precipitated a collapse with the Australians. Gary Pratt, for example. Glenn McGrath standing on the cricket ball edge press. But, but the point, but the point here in all of this, Jason, is Usman Khawaj's Back spasm and playing golf before the first Test. No, but, but led to the shuffling of the Australian batting order and Travis Head taking the first test completely out of it in the sands. And it is, you know, for the life of a coach, for all you do your preparations, sometimes it is the slightest thing and all of a sudden it's off in a different direction.

Yeah, absolutely. And look, that was a. This, this series could, could be a lot different had that, you know, Usman not played golf three days in a row and sore. So really interesting. But just going back to that comment about preparation and, and the like. I'll share A quick story. 2001 Ashes, we're in. In the UK and Wade second. The Queensland wicketkeeper was our reserve wicketkeeper behind Adam Gilchrist. And, and Wade actually said to Gilly, well, look, mate, unless you get injured, I know I'm never gonna play, but we're teammates here. I am gonna work you to the bone to make sure you're keeping your best for our country. Right? So they at try every training session, Wade would make it his thing to help Gilly be the best keeper he could be. And then Gilly, conversely, the same thing. He would help Chuck. Chucky second, would be the best he could be. So we, we were preparing it before the final test at the oval. We had a couple of days out from the test match and Gilly and Chucky second. They called him the catching bonanzas. So they do these catching sessions. They called them the catching bonanza. And they do all their drills. They do all their catching. And we. They'd started this about an hour before training scheduled to finish. We finished scheduled training. They were still out there. We went back inside and had something to eat and a shower, got changed and caught the. Caught the team bus coach back to the hotel in London, which is no small feat. It takes a while to get around London. When they went upstairs and checked in with home, all this sort of stuff. And then an hour later came downstairs, met in the bar for a beer. We're probably on our second beer. And then a black cab, rocks up. And that's Wade and Adam Gilchrist getting out of the cab, both like all covered in sweat and perspiration, everything. They're absolutely gone. And they would have been keeping for three or four hours. And it was just, just what they did. That was because they wanted to give themselves the best chance to basically.

To us, Jason, thank you very much. David and Phil as well. Merry Christmas to you all.

Merry Christmas.

Still be three, two. Couldn't it.

Phil Absolutely.

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