The Ashes: Wounded Stokes says no place for weak men.

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Smith Two to win faces Atkinson. Atkinson bowls to him, Smith launches it. It's going out towards deep mid wicket. He's finished it off with a.

Emphatic win for Australia. They've done it again by eight wickets.

Resistance from England today but ultimately they have been outplayed by Australia who are 2 nil up with 3 to play and they're not far away from retaining the ashes. Adelaide is next and Australia can do it then.

Well it's a great finish from the Australian skipper. He's becoming a really good interim captain. He doesn't lose too many, don't think he's lost yet. Won six and drawn one. He's seven games as interim and that's another eight wicket victory. Pure dominance from Australia. Just play stronger cricket. Even today when England hung in there, they fought really hard with the ball and bowled with great consistency.

So Australia are 2 nil up in this test series. They have dominated for the first three days of the game. There was some fight from England today. Ben Stokes making 50 shared a partnership of 96 and 36.4 overs with Will Jacks to delay the inevitable. England 241 all out. Atkinson picked up a couple of wickets, Travis head Bowl for 22 and lavish and got a snorter and was called behind by Jamie Smith for three. But Steve Smith finished it off 23 not out and hitting the last ball for six to give Australia their emphatic victory. Michael Vaughan sum up today from England. What did you see from England today?

Well, I saw more discipline with the bat in hand. Ben Stokes is an incredible leader, an incredible fighter. But Will Jack's played a really strong, strong hand as well. You know, they were always so far behind the game. The game's been lost in many different areas. You know, day one you look at the score of 325 for nine, you think, well that's quite decent. Realistically there were probably 100 light in terms of par the shot that Harry Brook played to Mitchell Stark when England were really dominating the game. You know, in Australia you need players to get big hundreds and if you keep getting 30s and 40s and fancy 50s, well that's not going to get you to those really big totals with the ball on day two. Just got it all wrong in the initial start. Then they kind of grabbed it back in the middle session. Then they created chances in the back end of the day and the catching just wasn't good enough. And Australia just, they just know how to capitalize. Australia's skill sets on day three were exceptional. England made too many mistakes last night. They needed to arrive here on day four, probably three down. So that needed a different approach last night. From the way that I saw it was like the basball way, this is the way that we play today wasn't the basball way, it was attritional. It was like stark and bowling yesterday. But you have to look at Australia's bowling today when the pitch didn't do a great deal. But they were just so consistent, so consistent on a length, on a length. They never kind of went away from the plan. Every now and again they bowled a few short balls but it was hit the off stump. Hit the off stump. Michael Nisa and it's quite ironic, Simon, that you look at the England side and they've come down here with a lot of pace. When I'm looking at Australia bowling Nea Sir Doggett they're all English style team bowlers and I've been here for many, many years and I've seen in the last three or four years a completely different change to the pitches and the ball here in Australia. I know the pink ball has been used this week, but the top of off stunt bowlers like an Anderson broad wokes they're the type of bowlers that you need here in Australia of course to have a bit of pace and have a little bit of change up. Fantastic. But what I've seen in the last few years, it's top of off that natural pitch up bowler that can challenge the forward press, challenge that forward defense. You bring your keeper up. That's been a genius move. Alex Carey I think had as good a game behind the stumps that I can remember. We've seen Ben folks in, in India, you know, against the spinning ball, magnificent. But Carey's just given a master class of how to stand up to the bouncing ball at times. So brilliant tactics from Australia. England have just got to be honest, not enough players are turning up. Know you can't win against Australia. In Australia with just three or four of your players rocking up and performing to a level and beyond. You need six, seven, eight players playing to par at least with three or four playing exceptional kind of innings or bowling performances. Yeah, all facets of England's game this week have not quite been good enough.

What did you make of Ben Stokes's approach today?

Liked it. I think he did what he had to do. He had to try and take the game deep. He was just hoping that he could be there for that second new pink ball. I know that sounds mad under the lights but it was probably the one chance England had of scoring quickly with the old pink ball. It's so hard to score quicker because it goes so soft. And Steve Smith is a brilliant captain. He does read the game great and he kind of plays the in out field game. He brings them in at the right time to try and force a shot. Once you get one or two away, he just spreads it. England tried the best but it was all too late, you know. And then Joffrey spell there and Gus, you look at them and go, oh, they bowled nicely. But you know, I want to see my bowler bowling 150km an hour on the first morning in Adelaide. You have the sun shining. I want to see that contest again. Joffre Archer versus Steve Smith. It was almost too late but again you see that he's got so much talent and he is the one ball that I look at. I think if he can just get it right he could have a Mitchell start type of week for England. And it looks to me like they're going to have to have that kind of week from someone like Joffre Archer. They'll have to make change. You know, you can't keep with the side that have gone 2 nil down. There will be changes going into Adelaide.

So what sort of changes can they make? Jacob Bethel made some runs today for the Lions, 71. Bowling changes, batting Changes. They haven't made many batting changes, have they? For a long time now it's been a very settled batting lineup. Top seven.

I think they have to seriously consider O Pope's position. You know, he's just looking like he look, he's played plenty of games against Australia without a 50. So I think there's a little bit of a mental scoff against Australia for Ollie Pope. You bring in Jacob Bethel. I've said it a long while ago, could Ben Stokes bat at number three? Could he do Sal bat at number three? Then will Jacks bats at number six? I think it's such a big risk to bring in someone like Jacob Bethel into this kind of series when the team's two nil down. He's never got a first class hundred and you're expecting him to go and deliver against an Australian team with the likes of Pat Cummings and Nathan Lyon back into their team. So the bowling unit for me needs to change. I think Matthew Potts, an English style pitch up bowler, he's probably something that could be required. Adelaide might not be that style of bowling weak, but they have to rotate the bowlers. Josh Tong, who've got 18 wickets in the summer, five against Australia in 2023 in that one Test match, he hasn't played a game yet. He does get wickets. And England just need to find a way of not only obviously getting 20 wickets, but Australia are scoring too quickly. They're scoring so quickly against this England side. From the second innings in Perth to the first innings here. The, the, the only reason that the kind of scoring weight went down is because Boland and Start thought, nah, we'll just bat for a bit of time. Up until that point they were scoring at well over five. So there's huge problems for the England team.

Glenn McGrath is here as well. We'll get some reaction. We'll hear from Ben Stokes and anyone else that the England camp put up. Glenn, what's your assessment of what you've seen over the last four days? We thought it was going to be three and a bit but it ended up being four days.

Yeah. So it's, you just like to look at, see what England learned from the first test and whether they put them in play here. And you probably look at that first innings, you know, it's a great innings by Joe Root. You know, you can't take anything away from him. And that's, that's a one little mark against insane. Never had 100 against Australia. Came out and did that here, you take that out, it's it's completely different. And again it's just, to me it also showed that England haven't played much day night cricket. You know, I reckon they still should have declared in that, you know, had half an hour at Australia. Who knows, they could have picked up two or three like we saw here tonight.

But.

And then yesterday, you know, when, when Australia's batsman in firstly carry and Nisa and then especially with stark and bow on the way they went about it to drag it as long as possible to get that newer ball under lights and you saw the damage they did. England should have realized that and just thrown everything at them. We have to get these last four wickets well before night so that the, that pink ball is a lot softer, a lot older going into that night session. So yeah, there's, there's a lot of things there where England needed to, to pick up. You know, the way Stokes fought today with Jax, you know, you expect that from Stokes. He's a, he's a quality player.

He's a great player.

And yeah, the way it finished off.

That'S why it goes the way they played today. I'll bring toughers in in a moment but the way England played today, Glenn, do you think there's a, that's a pointer to the future actually that you, it is better to just play within yourself a bit and not, not playing a over aggressive way?

Yes and no. You know, I, you've got to pick the, the situation and how the game's going and, and assess the conditions and ad, you know, adjust and adapt accordingly. You know, in Pakistan, the way they played, they took it on and there were conditions for that. The first two tests have not been conditions for, you know, hitting balls off short of the length, bouncing. So.

Yeah, yeah, they, there was a little, few, little improvements especially in the, in the sort of last, probably more so today. But even the way they finished off, you know, Joffrey Archer came in, had a bit of fight in him. You know, he was, you know, he's having a chat. He was bowling sharp, he was bowling getting aggressive, but the game's gone. Where was that on day one?

Let's go down to Jonathan Agnew. He's down there on the, the boundary edge and Brendan McCullum, the England head coach is walking towards him. We'll hear from Brendan in just a moment.

Okay, thank you, Simon. Yes. Brendan McCollum is with me. How do you reflect on that?

Obviously disappointing to go two nil down in a five match series makes things pretty tough. But we've been here before, and we're going to have to make sure we stay tight as a group and iron out a couple of the chinks that we've shown over the last two Test matches. Because when you come to Australia, you can't be below your best and you need make sure you seize every opportunity. I think I look at a few moments in this Test match and there was times where we had ascendancy with the bat and we probably let that slip. There was times where we didn't execute with the ball as well as we should have and didn't adapt to the conditions that we were presented with as quick as we could have. And clearly our catcher was an issue as well. It's very hard to beat Australia at home if you're going to be deficient in all three of those areas. So we got some work to do, we've got some time.

But we've been here before and there's no point feeling sorry for yourself. You pick yourself up and you go again.

Yeah. Only pointed the finger at basically all three disciplines of the game. They're batting, bowling and fielding as being issues.

Well, we weren't at our best, right? And I think to beat Australia in Australia, you need to be at your best across all three disciplines, and we weren't. That's the brutal honesty of it. And we'll wear that. And, you know, from our point of view, we know that we need to get better, we need to be a lot quicker to adapt to the conditions that we're going to get in Adelaide, because I thought we were a bit slow to adapt to the conditions here. And I think we showed by Australia when they bowled in that second innings, you know, the links that they hit, the adjustments they made, and they put us under a lot of pressure, and we weren't quite able to do that when we had our opportunity. So, look, there's some positives in it as well, but there's, you know, obviously when you lose, you try and grasp onto some of those positives and you try and iron out some of the negatives, but we have time and we've got to make sure that we don't lose heart. We've still got an opportunity to bounce back and we've got a chance in nine days time to be able to put our hands up and be better than what we were in this one.

I mean, ironically, a lot of what we saw today actually is what England fans have been calling out for.

Yeah, look, I think we scraped hard today. You know, I think on a pitch like this and conditions that you're confronted with. It's not a natural free flying type of surface today. And the situation needed us to try and bat as long as we could and try and get as many as we could. Whether that was 140, 150, it would have given us a chance on a pitch which even right at the end there we saw still had some tricks in it. We just weren't able to. Able to capitalise on it. We didn't get enough runs in our second innings and. And we gave away too many runs in our first innings and ultimately hence why we ended up only having 60 to defend in the last innings.

Is there anything you'd have done differently? Looking back now, there is a bit of a break. These last two tests, would you have done anything differently coming into these games?

Not from a preparation point of view. If anything, we probably trained too much, to be honest. We had five intense training sessions leading into. Into this game and that's something as a. As a coach you got to make sure you're aware of. I think sometimes there's a tendency to want to overdo things to try and to make up for it. But as we all know, in this game it's played in the top 2 inches, majority of it. And you got to find a way to be able to. We all have to find a way to be able to ensure that we feel prepared physically, we're prepared, technically prepared for the battle. We adjust to the conditions as quickly as we can, but also make sure we're fresh and we're ready and we're able to make those succinct decisions in the heat of the battle, which can win and lose games.

See you to ad lib. Thank you, Baz.

Thank you.

Right, there's Brendan McCallum talking to me. We'll get Ben Stokes in just a few moments, I think. So if you listen out, he's actually talking on the television at the moment and then he'll be talking to me.

Tough as it's here. Trained too much. That's an interesting comment, wasn't it? But I can sort of understand that to some extent because. Because they hadn't had any pink ball practice at all. You have. You had to suddenly go fast forward and train quite a bit for the pink ball.

Well, yeah, perhaps there a little bit. I mean, but what sort of struck me was that they just didn't grasp the situation, you know, kept playing these shots. Glenn mentioned it earlier on, you know, very quickly you find. And they got away with that. I can remember. What was it? Pope And I'm not quite sure Crawley or something like that, you know, they went through this period where they'd got on top and they'd wrestled a little bit of initiative away from Australia, and then they had this period where then Ollie Pope started skimming them over the slips and Crawley' skimmed a few over the slips. Surely. Then you go, you. You walk down, you do a bit of gardening, you have a chat with your mate and say, listen, you know, we've had a little bit of luck there. Let's just tuck up here a little bit. It's coming into the pink, you know, it's coming into the darkness and what have you. You've just got to be a little bit more circumspect. You've got to learn, you know, you've got to do your learning and your practice and everything before the game, but, you know, a lot like life, you know what I mean? You've got to then adapt through. You've got to go through the gears, you've got to sometimes pull back on the gears, sometimes put a sh. That you think you can do, but then as the lights come down, you can't do it. Like those big hacks outside of stump to. To. To start. But, yeah.

Right, Ben Stokes is approaching Jonathan now, so let's go back to Jonathan.

Yep. Just micing the. The captain up. Well, Ben, how do you. How do you feel after that?

Yeah, obviously disappointing.

You know, again, I think, looking back on this game and something that I sort of.

Can take a little bit of sort of, I don't know, stuff happening over and over again. And it's the moments in games where the game is in a moment of. It's neither here nor there.

And Australia have managed to get through those periods, whether they've got the bat in the hand or the ball in the hand and outdo us.

And that seems to be the constant theme not only in these first two games, but over a long while. So I can stand here and say, I know it's not down to a skill thing because of the players you've got in that dressing room. They're all incredibly talented players. They've shown that on numerous occasions. But if you can't put it down to a skill thing, then you start to wonder, what is it? Do we need to start thinking about what mentality we're taking into those pressure moments? Because when we're on top, we're great. When we're behind the game, we're also very good. But when that moment of the game is neck and Neck.

We'Re not coming out on top on enough occasions to be able to challenge a team like Australia. So yeah, there'll be, look, there's going to be some conversations going on in the dressing room that I'll keep to the dressing room, I'll fully bat my players that we're able to bounce back from this and deliver what we need to deliver over the next three games because what else are we supposed to do? We're 20 down, we've got three games left, we know we've got to win them and yeah, can you, can you.

Learn from watching how Australia, I mean Australia did play a pretty decent game here tactically as well, didn't they?

Oh God.

I mean probably a blur now.

Oh no, it's not necessarily blur. I think as I said to you there, it's the moments in the games where it's on the line, you know, is it fight, is it characters of the mentality that we're taking out there as a group? That's what I got to find out. That's what I got to ask. You know there's a saying that we said a lot here in this dress room. Australia isn't for weak men but a dressing room that I'm captain of isn't a place for weak men either. So yeah, look, we need to, we need to dig deep. I need to dig deep and I need to, I need to get this team in a place where we do go out there in Melbourne and we are seriously switched on and understand where we are right now.

Yeah.

And does that involve conversations with individual players and points in this match that you will bring up as conversation points?

Individuals, individual chats, they happen constantly. Agus, you know, I think it's, you know, we are one team but we're made up of 11 players. So you know, when it's a team thing and as I say if I feel like it's something that's constantly happening then I need to, I need to address it. But yeah, I got no doubt about the guys in there are capable of winning the Sasha's. I'm capable within myself as a leader and as a captain and my skill set as a player. But yeah.

We cannot speak about the things that I think has potentially gone wrong over these last two games.

Ironically there are parts of today that actually went really well showing the sort of spirit, spirit I think the character and you know that's down to you as well. But the way Joffre Archer ran in at the end there, a couple of wickets taken, I mean that was. Actually looked good from the sidelines.

Yeah. And look, that's.

That's it.

You know, as a. As a captain, you try and put a little bit of your own influence within the team, as your own personal character. And all I asked for last night and this morning was from everyone who still had, you know, a responsible thing to do in this game, you know, especially with the bat, was just show fight, take the. You know, we talk about taking the scoreboard out of the equation, and I asked the group to take the scoreboard out of the equation and just fight. I think me and Jaxson did an unbelievable job at doing that. But look, you know, the guys lower down the order, yes, they have an unbelievable ability to be able to score us some runs, but, you know, they're batting down the order for reasons. So, yeah, it's tough to expect more and more from them down the order, if that makes sense. You know, we've got to take some responsibility there as a batting group, you know, especially that top seven.

Yeah. And hopefully to rein in some of the looser shots that have been played. Is that a fair comment?

I think when there's some of the stuff there, I think it's a mentality thing. And again, we seem to see those kind of things in that pressure situation when it's neither here or there. We've managed to wrestle game the first two games and moments back towards us, and then Australia have got the momentum back. So, yeah, I see that as a common theme. When the game is on the line, when the pressure is on, where are we at? What are we thinking about? Are we clear.

To go out there and do what we need to do to get us back in the game? So, you know, that's something that, as I said, I'll be addressing all this kind of stuff in the dressing room. I ain't going to sit here and spurt it all out, but, yeah, yeah.

Okay, last thought. There's still three games left. Ben, you're confident you can win?

Incredibly confident. I always. I'm confident of the guys who get to put the shirt on. Confident within myself that I can lead this team to a pretty impressive bounce back.

What else.

What else can I do? Where else can I be with my mind? I'll be doing everything I possibly can to do that.

Thanks for talking to us. Okay, cheers. There we are. Well, there we go. I think Ben Stokes in extraordinary reflective mode there, Simon. He's going off to have his conversations and looking into his eyes.

Different to the other, to the other week. That's Someone who's really got a lot on his mind and I think he's got a lot to say and he knows he's got big challenges ahead, but he is going to dig deep into the mentality of that dressing room and find out what the problems are. And when those moments come in which there is that situation, change that. It's not Australia that grabbed the initiative every time.

Yeah, I mean, he obviously didn't name names. You would never name names in a situation like that. But what. What do you think, or who do you think he was referring to?

Top seven. The top seven batsman. That's. That's. That's who he's talking about, isn't he? That's. It's quite clear. I think, you know, the way that. The way that they've been getting out and the way that they've been allowing Australia to get back into the game.

Yeah, I mean, I couldn't agree more. I mean, that was a real. It was a really interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting. I'd like that to have gone on for another 15 minutes. Maybe you're not allowed to do it, but he was in a talking. Get some stuff out there sort of mood there.

Yeah. That's the first time I've heard the Baz Stokes, you know, partnership sort of say, these things keep happening and if they keep happening, we have to then address them. So how are we then going to address it? And John, I don't necessarily think it's just the batting as well. It's the bowling as well. Look at Nisa, John, look at Nisa. Just comes up there, professional top of off stump, you know, and he keeps saying that Australia then wrestled the initiative back. They wrestle the initiative back just by sometimes pulling back. When we try to wrestle initiative, we kind of go harder and then that gives the initiative sometimes if it doesn't come off to the opposition. So, you know, sometimes just by plowing on forward isn't getting the initiative like Aneesa. The wicket went flat and he just. Top of off stump. Good professional bowling. Went about his craft and that's the way of getting it back.

Yeah, I was. I was interested particularly in the way he looked as he was saying those words. They are going off for a bit of a break now. There is some time until the next Test match.

He's going to be dealing with stuff. I think that was absolutely the message. He recognizes a. That there is an issue. He wants to find out why certain players are not responding in the right way. I think he's talked about individual Conversations to go through it all. And he said, I'm going to find out what the problem is. So I think, you know, this, this break for him probably comes at a good time actually, the way he was speaking there. He knows that there's a lot to be done and I don't think, you know, I interview Ben Stokes a lot. That, that was a, that was an entirely different look. You know, people can say words, but it's how you look into the eyes as well. And that was a very, very determined looking Ben Stokes.

Yeah, I mean my dressing room is not a place for weak men. I mean, you can draw your inference on that, can't you? I mean that's quite a strong comment to make.

But weak doesn't necessarily mean playing more shots. Weak sometimes was what Ben Stokes did there with the bat.

Well, I wonder, I mean just listening to him there, I wonder whether that the innings he played today was kind of like a bloody minded innings to say, look, this is what you've got to do, everybody.

Absolutely.

It wasn't, we're going to save this game, we're not going to win this game. But look, this is what you can do if you apply yourself, whether you're trying to lead by example out in the field.

We're not going to give an inch. That's basically what he was saying. We, we might have lost this game, which they clearly had, but we are not going to give an inch. And I think it'll be very interesting to see how they come out. And the way that Joff Racher ran in this evening, for instance, above B. Well, like, like lightning in a, in a losing cause, you know, maybe there have been a few rockets fired already in that dressing room, you know, and. Well, we'll, we'll see again, you know, we've talked a lot about all sorts of things, preparation and all of that. We will, we'll see how they, how they turn up in Adelaide next week.

Does it mean, do you think, John, it's difficult. We're trying to read something into words that to some extent were in code because you, you don't name names, do you, in a situation like that. Does that mean, do you think that means potentially changes in the top seven?

I think he's going to be listening very carefully to what each player has to say. He'll have those in his mind who, I suspect, who, who he will feel have not given their best so far and I suspect Ollie Pope might be on that list. And as we talked last night, there's just no competition for Places. This is the problem. There's no player under threat in that team apart from Ollie Pope. And that's been the case from the very start because of Jacob Bethel. But Jacob Bethel can't open the batting. Jacob Bethel can't keep wicket. Jacob Bethel's not going to bat anywhere else. I mean, you know, it is a very strange setup in which there is just no competition. So these players are going to have to respond, but unfortunately there isn't. The bottom line that can was. That is usually the case in these teams in which you are. It's made pretty clear if you don't sort yourself out, you're out, you're gone. You know, Harry Brook, you played another shot like that. I don't care if you're second best in the world or whatever the rankings say, if you. You do that again, then I'm very sorry, but that's unacceptable. But that can't happen in this team because no one else.

Yeah, well, as I said, it could be a little bit of a change attack. Could be a change attack.

It's a change of approach. Approach, do you think?

Well, change of approach, absolutely. Well, it has to be a change of approach because this approach clearly has not worked. No, absolutely. But like you said, I mean, Harry. Harry Brook absolutely filled to the brafers with talent. But I think what he was saying there, that you might be. But you play a couple of more shots like that, it doesn't matter how much talent you've got, you got to prove it on the field with a big hundred. And that means graft, knuckle down, application and play the situation. And that was. That was a great interview. And I think that there will be a few rockets fired now in this dressing room from bed.

Stokes.

I wouldn't like to be. I wouldn't like to be in that room. I mean, he wasn't looking aggressively at me at all.

This.

This was steely, determined, ice cold.

Yeah.

Very reflective. Choosing his words very carefully and saying what he said absolutely deliberately. I mean, Ben Stokes is not. Is not a stupid individual. He said that on here.

For the public consumption. Absolutely deliberately.

Yeah. And I don't think that dressing room now might be saying coming back in like that and taking your gloves off and saying, well, that's just the way I play. That's what I sort of felt from that. You know, that's the way you play. I don't care how good you are, I don't care how much we've invested in you, you're not playing. I think that's a Change of tack right there.

We'll see.

What do you make of it, Glenn listening on?

No, in. It's interesting. Trying to listen to what he's saying, but also what he doesn't want to say. Yeah, there's a few things there. I guess it's got to the point now. There's been a lot of talk about bas ball for a couple of years now. This is make or break. This is. There's no, you know, if we lose the next few games, I will continue on with it. It's. It's all or nothing now and just listening to him, to me it's about.

They'Ve got the talent, there's no doubt about it.

But then it's applying yourself for the. Adapting to the conditions. Okay, I can go hard now or it's a bit tough. Okay, get through this tough period, then assert myself again. So. And that's where they haven't made the right decision. So it's all. It's more mental side of the game. And when he said, well, we're great front runners, when we're behind, we're great. It says that middle period when neck and neck and Australia gets the ascertain. But you look at Perth, they were miles in front and they threw it away with. With shot selection and you know, after lunch on day two, they were, you know, 100 in front one wicket. All of a sudden the Australia's chasing 200 and gets them. So they're on top of. Didn't assess the situation, you know, keep batting out there. You can always sense the opposition when they're vulnerable and that's when you can attack. When, when it's sort of level pegging, you've got to work hard. So. Yeah, exactly.

About Perth, like you said, Glenn, 100 ahead now they went hard and then that. That's what their undoing was, I think now, you know, when you, when you're 100 ahead, if anything, buckle down the, you know, batten down the hatches a little bit and grind them and make sure you get there. So I think it's going to be a completely different England side that we're going to see turning up in Adelaide but.

But not different necessarily in personnel but in.

I don't know how they all slot in.

I mean, hopefully an attitude in accountability from the team and from the individual sort of perspective.

Yeah, absolutely.

I mean, Jonathan, you. I mean, you just said it there. I mean it's very hard to overhaul this team, especially the batting order. I mean, there is Jacob B. He did make some runs to the Lions today against Australia A. And they do have Lions players here. I. You don't think they would do something really radical and blood, a couple of. Not new players, but players who haven't played in the series, perhaps from outside the squad. I mean, not. The Lions have done particularly well in their first things. They're born out for 160. They don't have that much room for maneuver.

No, they haven't. They've got none. I mean.

It wouldn't surprise me if they played Bethel, actually, just because.

The way tours are now, and I know they've got a few days off now and they will reconvene in Adelaide. But there's no escape, you know, if the same bowler's getting you out all the time and there he is running in at you again the following week. We saw it in the COVID series, didn't we, four years ago. You know, there's no escape for the batsman in particular, but also the bucks bowlers are running. And, you know, Steve Smith again has made his mark here again, isn't he, against Joffre Archer.

There's no means of getting away. So sometimes it's freshening something up, but might. Might be a good idea. I think Ollie Pope was disappointing in this game. They really rave about Jacob Bethel, don't they? So. So that. Yeah, but it's the only change they can make apart from switching a bowler or two, I think. I think Will Jacks is going. Will Jackson have a lot of good in this game? Yeah, you know, first innings he played pretty well. Second he's played really well. Showed it. Showed the right temperament. And that, I think, is what, you know, I think temperament is probably what Stokes was talking about there. You know, when they're going at stuff and Glenn was right, you have that. You have that opportunity, you've got to grab it, you've got to take it and not let Australia wrestle it back again, which is what's happened so far. They've had opportunities in these two games, but they've just. They've just not. It's not taken them. And that's. That's. It must be so frustrating to be the captain in that. In that. In that situation. You can just. You can see the opportunity is there, but it. But it. But it hasn't been taken. So it wouldn't surprise me if that was the case. But they tend to be very loyal and they tend to keep, you know, we heard Brendan McCullough say to me there, you know, keep it tight. That's the way they like to do it and that, that's what they've done. They've come here more or less with their. Well, with 12 or 13 already inked in, they can change a change a quick bowler or two, but maybe that might be a change that we look out for.

It's a familiar theme, two nil down in Australia, but actually it was two nil last time in the Ashes in England there were two tight test matches. England lost them by two wickets and by 40 odd runs. And Ben Stokes, I remember him saying, I think actually it's Brendan McCullum saying at laws, we can come back and win this series. Is there any way back realistically for England from here?

Well, it doesn't feel like it when you're standing out here in the gabba and there's a four day defeat on the back of a two day defeat and you know you've got Australians celebrating all over the place. I've got hundreds of people just behind me here pinned up against the railings. You've got Mitch Stark signing, having a selfie. You know, it's, it's a, it's an all in Australian celebration. But anybody who's watched these six days will see that Australia is vulnerable now. They're going to be stronger in Adelaide. They'll have Nathan Lyon back. I think Pat Cummins will almost certainly be back although. And yeah, he hasn't played a game for months and that's, you know, that's. We talk about England's preparation and match preparation and match practice. Well, you know, he hasn't, hasn't played for a very long time and so, you know, he'll, he'll have be fairly careful. I would have thought how he, how he comes back, but I, I would. Can they win the, can they win three out of three? Well, as I said to you, I think semi joking the other day, at least now they've had some preparation, at least now they've had some match practice in these two games they've, they've lost them both. They had opportunities to win them both and, and I think after the.

All the inquests have taken place and these, these conversations with players are taking place in the dressing rooms and they've all got their heads straight and Ben Stokes has got his head straight and he's delivered his message, then we'll see how they come out at Adelaide. Because the way the series is so far, there'll be opportunities there for England. This is not a great Australian side. They are vulnerable. There'll be opportunities and this time, well England will have to take them.

I think. I think also what it comes down to a little bit is it's like the minerals. You got some minerals here, boys, you know what I mean? You know, it's all very well and good seeing Joffre Archer, you know, with a three or four over spell. Didn't see too much of that when the game was. Was happening, you know what I mean? The guys run in and everything, but.

I think steaming in there. He was steaming. He was in Steve Smith's face.

Where was that John? Where was that John in the first team?

Well, exactly, exactly.

Yeah.

So make. So maybe some, maybe some rockets have already been fired.

Yeah, Perhaps that's what he meant.

Absolutely. About weak men. Yeah.

Jonathan, from here to Adelaide, it's over a week now. People listening. This might not know, but England have a mini break where they go to Noosa. What, what do you think about that? A mini break and then off to Adelaide at the weekend for preparation for the test match which starts next Wednesday.

Yeah, well, I mean, the optics will be bad and people at home listening was prepared to see lots of photographs of England's cricketers playing golf. And you know, that is not going to look good. Now. Do you do things for optics and what else could they do? Well, the only thing they could do alternatively is to go to Adelaide to Bin Noosa, which is up on the sunshine coast. It's a very nice place indeed. But you bin that. You go to Adelaide, you don't practice every day, you can't practice every day, you can't net every day, but you can at least be there and preparing yourselves mentally. You go to the Adelaide oval, you do a bit of work every day, just a little bit before building it up. But then you can go and play your golf in the afternoon. I mean, as I've said so many times, you can't train all day and you can't sit in your hotel room all afternoon and evening. When you finish your training, you've got to do something. So, you know, playing golf is not the problem. It's just, it's built, the narrative has kind of built up which suggests that actually all they're interested in is playing golf. Well, that's, that's not true. You know, we watch them train, we watch them work. It's unfortunate, I think, for England and it's entirely of their own doing that this narrative has been allowed to grow while they're losing games. And rather than playing like for instance, the game in Canberra, that I think people are still a bit split on but I mean I think some of them should have gone and played that just to have got used to a pink ball. There were a number playing in this game who never played with a pink ball before that. That to me would be, it would have been a more sensible approach and I think the people listening at home would, would agree with that. And had they done all that and still lost, well, okay, you have your break. But that's the only thing I can, I can think of. But I must say I just think that the sight of them on their golf buggies over the next few days in Noosa. Yeah, they're going to be drones up. They've had it already with cameras. I mean the people at home have no idea really about the scrutiny that the England cricket team is under. There they were on those scooters in, in Brisbane, you know, all that stuff. They are followed all of the time. Every airport lounge they go into. It's, it's, it's everywhere and they've, they're going to have to prepare themselves for some, you know, some, some pretty tricky headlines and photographs over these next few days. But say what else could they do? Yes, you can go and do some, go and do some practice. But that match is what, nine, nine days away. It's a long time to be spending having fielding practice and in the nets.

Okay. I suppose in the old days they had a match, wouldn't they, between. Yes, they would have played a match.

That's exactly. Yeah, that's exactly it. And what they'd have done, they'd have had players in the squad who would have played in that practice match along with people who actually needed the practice out of the main team. And then you'd sit down at the end of that practice match and before the next Test say, right, who's in form, who's playing well? Who's going to play in this next test match? Well, I think you could virtually name one to 11 and we've talked a bit about Bethel but that doesn't happen. That, that is not happening anymore. I don't think that's old school and you know what it was. It was also rather fun going round and going up into upcountry places and just playing against the, you know, the country. 11, whoever it was, you saw a bit of the country. You got away from all the main players. You clear head opportunity for Batson particularly to get some runs. It was a useful exercise but yeah, that's unfortunately not on the agenda this time.

Thanks very much.

Agust.

Glenn, you wanted to Say something.

Yeah, no, sort of the fact they don't have a game on now. I actually don't mind them having a break. You know, listening to Ben, to Ben Stokes and to, you know, Brendan McCollum, it was a different. I got a different sense from it because they've always been very positive and no negativity at all and very strong that this is the way we're going to go and end of story. But now I'm hearing, yes, we do have issues. Yes. Not playing as well as we like. There's. There's a. They've now identified their issues. They've accepted it, I think. Going away now, having a break.

Yep.

Go up Noosa, play some golf, whatever you want to do, and really come back. Okay. Now, this is our mindset. We've changed. This is what we have to do to do things differently. They've been so strong and they put a wall up around everyone else saying, this is the way we're going to do it. They finally identified this doesn't work. So now they've got to have a different approach. So from here on in, their approach, once they get to Adelaide, is going to set the standard for them for the rest of the series and see if they're good enough to come to bounce back from here. So I'm. I'm glad they've finally identified it. Maybe it's a test or two too late, but better late than never.

No, absolutely. I think it's a change attack, you know. You know, I mean, the batters are getting a little bit of stick here, but also the bowlers, you know, if you're not, you know, wickets are flat in Australia. They go flat, it's long, it's hot and everything. So what do we do? Bang it in, halfway down. That hasn't worked. You know, take a leaf out of nisa's book. Just bowl some top of off stump, you know, set some fields back, you know, and let the opposition come to you a little bit. I think it's going to be a change attack with the ball and I think it's going to be a slight change attack with the bat still looking to be positive and aggressive. But Ben Stokes, he led the way with the basball charge and I think he's perhaps just shown there. He's going to lead the way with a little bit more defiance.

There are always two sides to a story. We've heard the England side, there's a happy side for Australia. Victors by eight wickets in this second Test match. We can get some reaction now, from the Australia camp, captain Steve Smith has been speaking to Isogur.

Now I'd like to welcome up Steve Smith. He's just calmed down from his knock. Feeling a bit more relaxed now.

Yeah, pretty chilled now. That was good fun there for a little bit. So great day. Cricket guys toiled really hard early on. Obviously, really good partnership with Stokesie and Jaxy there and, you know, once we broke that, we were able to go through and get him out and chase 60. So, yeah, great day.

Let's go back to the start. You lost the toss, so how pleasing must that be given it's such a crucial thing in a pink ball test?

Yeah, I think the first two days were pretty even in terms of conditions that we both faced. No one got a new ball at the night in that first little bit and then I think the game turned for us when we were able to, you know, extend everyone, get into double digits. Unfortunately, no one go on to make a big one, but, you know, particularly the tail to bat for 50 overs and extend that time so we could get the new ball under lights and obviously do some damage. Last night was crucial for us and yeah, it was just a really good performance.

You had 650 run partnerships there. How crucial was that? Especially, you know, when England are coming hard at you and the lights are changing, the. The conditions are changing.

Yeah, I mean, it can be tricky with the pink ball. You're almost never in at times. Sometimes it feels a little bit easy when the ball gets a bit soft and then, you know, you get a ball change or something, you know, the lights come on, it speeds up a bit, it just changes really quickly and you got to adapt and yeah, it's a tricky game at times, but yeah, I thought the guys being able to extend those partnerships and have a lot of 50 run partnerships really helped us.

In the game, obviously with the ball, obviously. Michael Nissa was a talking point coming into the side for Nathan Lyon. He delivered.

He did, yeah. He obviously made our batting a little bit longer as well at number eight. And yeah, what he did today and in the first innings with exceptional, I think, you know, he offers something different to the other guys. We can bring the keeper up to the stumps and change the game that way. And the way he bowled today and last night was exceptional. And yeah, really pleased for him to get his first fifer. He's been on a lot of tours, he's worked really hard and, yeah, really pleased for him.

Wicketkeepers don't often get a good rep, but how good was Alex Carey?

He's a freak, honestly. Up to the stumps, the ball just seems to end up in his hands. It hits the batter's pad or something and it still ends up in his hands. He's got no fear up there. He moves so well and his gloves are just sensational. And yeah, that was one of the best keeping performances I think I've ever seen.

And yours, top three, your cat.

It's got to be up there. I reckon they're pretty tough when you know you've got a pink ball. The lights are on. Yeah, I'm blindsided by Alex. I'm standing quite wide because Alex covers so much room. And then, yeah, just fortunately saw it late and got down to it and it stuck. It was obviously at a crucial time to break that partnership. So. Yeah, I'll remember that one.

Just last one for you, Steve. Pat Cummings obviously comes back fit for the next test match, but you're going pretty well with the captaincy. You happy to hand it back?

Yeah. All his. No, it's been fun the last couple of games. The boys have put on some terrific performances and done everything I've said. So give it back to Patty and let him take it.

Well done. Congratulations.

Thank you.

Steve Smith with Isuit. So is it obvious, Glenn, what Australia do for Adelaide? They just bring back lion and they bring back Cummins and that's it.

Well, by the looks of things, that's probably what will happen. You know, Pat Cumins hasn't played for a while and I think back to last year when India came out, that first test match where India won in Perth, the bowling looked underdone a bit and it wasn't till the second test that they really fired and then that includes Pat Cummins so hopefully he's ready to go. Hits the ground running. And Nathan Lyon, you know, I think he could have played an impact out here. But then you look at what Boland and Nisa did at different times. So yeah, who did they leave out? Unfortunately, I think it's. It will be Doggett and Nisa that that will be left out. Nissa has played three day night test matches in his career and they, they like their, you know, that horses for courses thing. So yeah, if Lyon and Cummins come back in, it will be Doggett and Nisa that unfortunately miss out.

Nissa with 5 for 42 today. Mitchell start taking 2 for 64 to go with his 6 for 75 and his innings of 77. He was player of the match and he has been speaking to Isha as well.

Two wins.

Yeah.

Yeah, can't ask for much more.

Yeah, well, I mean it went a.

Bit longer than the first test, but hard fought one I think for both.

Teams and yeah, glad to be on.

The right side of it.

How's that body holding up? Because you keep putting in and you keep bowling at 140 plus kilometres an hour.

Yeah, it takes a little bit longer.

In the mornings at this age, but.

Nah, still going okay. Yeah, hanging in there.

And that pink ball not swinging necessarily too much for you but you were still able to extract the wickets. What was the key for you?

Yeah, I mean we've sort of seen on this ground before when the wickets this hard, it's sort of see that pink ball go soft pretty early. So yeah, I think we as a bowling unit bowled really well across both innings. Obviously the batting in the first innings.

Was key to get a lead there.

And Ness today was phenomenal. So really, really pleased for him at his home ground in front of family.

He was phenomenal today.

You're so often the tone setter. Just how difficult is it to get yourself ready for, for that first ball? Because you make it look very easy.

Yeah, I'm still trying to do the same things, aren't I? So no, it doesn't take much to.

Get ready to go.

Still trying to bowl as quick as I can and hit the stumps every time.

So yeah, keep running in and see how we go.

Well, you've contributed so much in terms of the wickets, but what about with the bat? How much did you enjoy that?

There's no better incentive for bowlers than to that as long as you can to not bowl anymore. So yeah, it was nice to put a bit of a partnership there. I think that's, you know, you speak a little bit of the tactical side of pink ball Test cricket and we.

Knew it was going to be better to bowl with the pink ball or hard new pink ball later in the day.

So to get through as long as.

You did with the bat, to put.

A partnership together with Scotty and then.

Obviously Doggy for a little bit there.

At the end was really key for us to push that bowling innings as far back as we could and we.

Saw late in the day we got those rewards.

So yeah, fantastic to contribute as a lower order.

Got a taste of what it's like to be a proper all rounder.

I'm too old for that. Yeah, I'm not sure how Stokesian the.

Guys do it as long as they do.

So yeah, I'll enjoy an extra day to put my feet up and get ready for Adelaide.

Well done once again Mitch.

Thanks Aich.

So that's Mitchell Stark, one of Australia's match winners. There were a few and a fine all round performance from Australia. They win this second test match by eight wickets as indeed they won the first test match. Andy Zaltzman alongside me. So what about the some of the individual stats from this game?

Well let's start with with Stark, back to back player of the match performances. As isa said there, 18 wickets in the first two Tests. That's the most any bowlers had after two Tests of an Ashes series since Shane Warne had 20 after two matches in the 199495 series. And his an achievement of having a six wicket haul and a score of 75 or more in the first innings of the Test. Only two other players have done that in Ashes history. Two great Australian all rounders. Jack Gregory in the first series after the first world war and Keith Miller in the first series after the second world war. So extraordinary performance from him with both ball and bat. Michael Neeser became the oldest seamer to take his first five wicket haul for Australia since medium pacer called Harry Boyle in the 1880s. And Australia just the fifth team.

Slightly niched at this, but the fifth team in Test history to have two pace bowlers aged 35 or more both take five wickets. Five wicket innings in a series and two of those were Walsh and Ambrose for the West Indies in the late late 1990s. So yeah, some, some excellent performances from Australia's bowlers. And the nature of that team batting performance, it was a slight mixture of ruthlessness and carelessness. There were a number of shots where they let England slightly back into it. But every single player scored double figures. The first Test innings in history in which all 11 players made 13 or more. And a very rare instance of a team reaching 500 without a single century stand only the third time that has happened in Test history.

Now Australia are 2 nil up. Yes, they are closing in seemingly on winning the Ashes. Now they are 2 nil up after 6 days of cricket. Is there a potential record of winning the Ashes in double quick time in.

Terms of days of cricket? I'll dig around between now and, and and Adelaide in terms of overs taken. England have batted for 219 overs and one ball in their four innings here we had 36.4 overs in that one partnership by Stokes and Jacks today. Either side of that they've lost 39 wickets in 182 overs a wicket every 28 balls faced in the series. It's the fastest in terms of balls faced batting. England have never gone 2 nil down against Australia more rapidly and by quite a significant, significant margin. To put it in context in the 2013-14 series when they were destroyed by Mitchell Johnson when they were 20 down, they'd faced 303 overs. So 85 almost a whole, well over a whole day's batting at modern over eights more across the first two tests to go 20 down to the Johnson inspired Australians then. So this has been extremely rapid. Obviously Perth was off the charts but even here bolt out and under 80 overs in both innings. And yeah, England are used to being 20 down in Australia. It's the eighth time in the last 10 series in Australia they've been 20 down after two.

They're now 17 without 17 matches without a win in Australia since the last Test of the 201011 series when they won by an innings to take the series 3 1. Their previous longest run of tests without a win In Australia was 12 either side of the Second World War. Even in the difficult times at the start of Australia's dominance in the early 1990s, the longest they went without a and ash's win was nine Tests. So 17 Tests. Joe Root, Ben Stokes first played on the 2013-14 series here. Neither of them has ever won a Test in this country, so it's a pretty desperate statistical situation. And just picking up on one particular aspect again it involves Mitchell Stark. He had a 27.2 over partnership with Scott Boland that was crucial in shaping the game early yesterday. England's eighth, ninth and tenth wickets across all four innings of the series have lasted a total of 27.5 overs. In losing their 12 wickets, they've lost a wicket every 14 balls to the eighth, ninth and tenth wickets. On paper, this is a strong England tale on the field. It has capitulated rapidly and you look at the comparison of the players, Atkinson with a test hundred and a number of other scores in the 30s and 40s. Brighton Carr says a test 50, a couple of first class hundreds and yet they've just comparing them with Boland and Doggett who managed about considerably longer than England's on paper, far stronger tail enders. So that's been a significant factor in this series. The rapidity with which England's tale subsided. We saw it again today when Stokes and Jacks had given them a glimmer of hope of at least challenging Australia. And then the tale once again disintegrated.

Into the Brisbane air and most of them caught from short balls on the leg side as well. But anyway that is a another story. Unless you've got something more.

Just one final niche niche stat. Well, the the Jack Stokes partnership 59 in 24 overs in the morning in the first session of the day, the lowest scoring full session of the basball era. It was Stokes's second slowest 50 of his of his career, but his his opposing number as captain Steve Smith 23 off nine the second inning scored two sixes in each innings, the first time in his long and illustrious test career that he's hit four sixes in a match which given the nature of basball is, I don't know, like an anti cherry on the top of a disappointing cake.

Yeah, kind of rubbing it in. There we go. Thanks very much Schultz. Now you can watch highlights on the BBC Sport website and app and on BBC iPlayer. You'll also be able to watch the TMS Ashes debrief with Alex Hartley on iPlayer and the BBC Sport YouTube channel. Check out BBC Sounds for our full range of podcasts. Just search Ashes and we're back on air Tuesday 16th December at 10:55pm ahead of the first ball at 11:30 for the third Test in Adelaide.

The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

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