The Cartel - with Steven Finn & Mark Wood

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The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

I've got a couple of fast bowlers alongside me as well as Alistair Cook. Um, do you consider yourself a fast bowler after your efforts in the field, Alistair?

I'm gonna have to let statistics Um, decide that. I just asked what these guys' averages are. That's all I ever say about bowling.

Oh well, uh, look, great to have Mark Wood with us, Stephen Finn alongside as well. 2 fast bowlers that played, uh, have played for England and been incredibly dominant in their time as well. I'm going to get their figures up, I'm going to build them up.

Oh no.

Yeah, here we go.

Do we have to?

I would just take them off.

For Mark Wood, 119 wickets, 5 5-wicket hauls. Debut back in 2015 now, given to me by Sir Alistair Cook. Over 10 years. Stephen Finn, 36 Test matches, 125 wickets at 35, 5 wicket hauls as well. I'm going to start with you, Woody. Where did you first learn to bowl fast and who was your inspiration?

Well, I was very lucky obviously to have Stephen Harmison at my club so I could watch him up close and you know, watch him on the telly as well at the local cricket club. And he was probably my inspiration. He was the one I wanted to be like, even though he was 6 foot millions and I wasn't very tall at all. But I still wanted to try and be like him. And then I've probably realized I could bowl fast. I bowled— I had a little bit of a growth spurt about 16, 17. I bowled once for Ashton. I remember then I got on the academy off the back of one spell. And then since then, I wasn't that quick. I could bowl the odd ball, but not consistently. And then When I became a pro, I got quicker and quicker from there.

And who do you credit for that ability to bring that pace to your game?

A mixture of people really, I think. Stevie Williams was my coach at Ashton, then going to Durham, John Windows did a lot of work with me, run-up and alignment and stuff like that to try and help me, and I gradually got quicker on the academy. Then probably with England, it would have been sort of Kevin Shine, was the original one, coming through England Lions and pace programs and things like that. So him a lot. And then from there, the last part of my career of getting quicker, probably someone like Neil Cullinan and maybe John Lewis. They would be the guys whose names I would throw out really. Michael Holden was a big one because he told me the length of my run-up and for ages I was like, nah, this is what's getting us to play for England. I'm not changing. And then when I did change it, I became a totally different bowler. So maybe I should have listened to him earlier. He does know a thing or two about fast bowling, I suppose.

How did he tell you that? Is it like a situation?

I sought after that. I sought him to speak to him at Lord's because he was like he'd said something on commentary, and it was my friends had messages about it saying he says that me run-up wasn't helping and it was putting too much strain and all this kind of stuff. So I went up to him at Lord's and was like. Can I ask you why you've said this? What, what do you see? Obviously a legend in the game. Like, what do you see in my thing? And he was just like, your run-up's too short. You have to— you're having to force it too much, and then you've fallen off and didn't— like, he was like, it was really good though, really nice wanting us to succeed and do well. And then I held on to that for probably another year or two of not doing it, and then I started doing it loosely in training of like starting to go back off a longer run and And then I was just like, right, that's it, I'm doing it. So I then moved my run-up back and then I was like twice as— I was a much better bowler when I changed to my longer run-up than I was off my short.

I think it's important to mention that there are so many different ways you can do it in terms of getting that delivery down there at the speeds that you get them down there. You mentioned Steve Harmison, he was tall, but he was super, super fast. He didn't have a run-up that I guess looked efficient, whereas for yourself you look a bit more like an athlete when you're running into a ball and you're approaching the crease and attacking it as well, a bit like a Brett Lee.

I don't— well, I don't think they were his legs, that was why. They were actually somebody else's legs attached to his body. But, you know, the one thing that he got that Finnick taught about a lot is like he got good bounce as well because he was so tall at the crease with his pace as well. And that often did for people, whereas me and someone maybe like a Brett Lee, a bit more skiddy and shorter and You know, braced front leg and had to like almost like rush onto people. Whereas Finny being a fast bowler, he was tall and aggressive and used that bounce really well.

Let's come to you then, Finny. Where did it start for you? Who was your inspiration?

I loved Glenn McGrath, as all of our TMS colleagues found out when I finally worked with him for the first time in the 2021-22 Ashes series.

You didn't leave him alone, did you?

Completely starstruck. I got put on air next to him. And he just popped up in a situation like this, a rain delay, and all of a sudden Glenn McGrath was like sat next to me and it was me, Aggers, and him talking about bowling. And I was just kind of looking around thinking, what? What? Um, no, this doesn't feel right. So he was the person that when I was young, um, that I just loved his attitude, um, his belligerence and his skill and getting close to the stumps, being tall and slim. Um, I kind of just wanted to try and replicate what he did, I think. So, so yeah, he was my big inspiration growing up. Steve Harmison clearly as well, for, for England bowler who was tall and hit the pitch hard when I was in my mid, mid-teens. That was when he was in his absolute pomp in the, in the early 2000s through to 2005. So, so yeah, I'd say those 2 people when I was a youngster are the 2 people that inspired me to really want to be a fast bowler. But I think I was just lucky to be naturally gifted and able to bowl quick when I was young. Could compete against men earlier than maybe other lads my age because I was able to bowl quick and keep them on their toes. And I think that's why I developed quite quickly as a cricketer. So yeah, it was like a sequence of events, but McGrath and Harmison were my two when I was a youngster.

He talks about bowling close to the stumps, sometimes a bit too close.

Yeah, yeah, that did. Well, that happened here. That all came to a head here against South Africa in 2012. And forced me actually to do the opposite to Woody. I had this lovely long flowing run-up, um, and then in the middle of a series, I, I just occasionally— it wasn't all the time, it was just occasionally— would knee the stumps, um, and then was kind of forced to change my run-up to a short run-up to try and maintain my momentum through the crease. And it ended up being really bad for me, um, and messing up all of that rhythm that I had off a long run-up. Um, I went from having a flow through the crease to than forcing it. And when I tried to untangle that, it became really difficult and challenging for me.

I was always told that it's a lot harder to change your feet than your top half when you're bowling. So at what point do you kind of get your action as perfect as it can be in your career, in, in terms of how you want to deliver, how efficient you want to be? Because I was still working on my action, you know, later on in my career, but I feel like that there's almost like a, a period of time when you're a fast bowler growing up in the game to really just hone and fine-tune your delivery action, because as soon as you change that, it can really just throw you.

Yeah, well, it's something I think you hone over time, and it's, it's also dependent on how you're feeling and what's going on with the conditions on, on any given day, or what bit of your body's hurting. I think that's one thing that's overlooked actually when We sit here and talk about the game, and Jofra Archer in particular, on a day where he's bowling 84 or 85 miles an hour instead of 91, and people are up here saying, oh, he's not trying, he's not— and I think they're lazy generalizations sometimes, and a lack of understanding for that fast bowling is difficult and it's challenging, and everything has to align on any given day for you to be able to bowl the ball at 90-odd miles an hour as Alistair Cook plays his tiny guitar, tiny violin next to me.

Do you respect fast bowlers? Do you respect what they've had to do? Alistair is a top-order batter. Do you respect, I guess, all the work and the shifts that they've put in? And as a captain, what were you looking for in a fast bowler?

Do I respect fast bowlers? I do. I mean, the The skill of getting it down there at a good pace is exciting, isn't it? It doesn't matter whether you're a captain of it or a crowd.

Yeah.

And with no— without disrespect to medium pacers who nibble it around, that is a very different skill and very different. But actually, as a crowd, there's nothing more exciting than watching someone bowling 90-plus miles an hour, as long as you're not the batter facing it. You're up here or you're in the crowd. That's what fast bowling does. It excites captains, it Excites the team. I don't think I— because it's really hard to have an understanding what bowlers go through physically. Like, it's the only time I ever felt sorry for bowlers is when— and it's often because it was our fault— is when, say, the opposite, they batted, got, say, got 400, then we got bowled out for like 140, 150. They didn't enforce the follow-on, and they've had 40 overs, their feet up, and you're asking them to go again. But the game's almost done already, and your last one's a chuck in. And I did—I didn't particularly enjoy that feeling standing at first slip thinking I'm asking my bowlers to go again. Absolutely, it's an—it is an incredibly hard. I—I don't know the actual physical stuff. I hear everyone moaning how hard it is and how much their body hurts all the times. And I don't know whether it's like when you get given like the far and you're going to bowl fast. Everyone says, "Oh, it hurts." So then everyone just carries on the. because it doesn't actually hurt, but they say it so it makes it look harder than it is.

All right, we've got some scars to prove it. Do you reckon, Finney?

Yeah, my knee is a mess.

He should respect fast bowling because there was— where were you out at Nick somewhere? And you said, come on, Woody, bowl at me in the nets. I bowled full ticket and then you got 200. Was that MCG?

I can't remember where it was, but I—

You've got a few double hundreds, haven't you? Probably.

No, no, I can't remember when I asked you to bowl it. I can't ask when I asked you to bowl at me.

Were the nets as slow as the MCG pitch?

No, I run in properly and he Very kindly said that was that was good because I bowled him a couple of bumpers. He's like, "No one ever bumps me in the net." So I bowled him a couple and he smacked them. And obviously getting them in a good nick, and then he got a double hundred that game. So really half of those runs should be mine. That's what I'm thinking. We never played against each other, did we? No, never.

Only ever in like practice games.

Yeah. You should absolutely take credit for that, Woody. Thank you. Was it a lot harder to face fast bowlers though in the nets? Because yeah, because they cheat and come like 19 yards.

That's not true.

But also it feels a bit more contained in the nets, doesn't it?

Horrible. A, there's no pressure on them. They've got a brand new— they've probably got a ball they've dragged out of their own, like, out of their own suitcase of the best ones. A rock-hard ball off 19 yards. There's no escape. So obviously playing bowling, it's fine because if you know, like, if you hit a boundary, you get going and you're fine. You put the pressure on them. But the net is— you do actually feel— I hated it. I hated it because you felt like a bit of a sitting duck for for those 25 minutes of the net.

This is hilarious. You felt like a sitting duck. The amount of times you've asked me to be night watchman for that team, and you're telling them about being a sitting duck in the net.

No, no, but out in the middle is fine. But the bravery of the net, like trying to sum up bravery in the net is like, who was the net bowler who just used to get us out a million times? Daniel Burton or something?

David Burton.

David Burton. God, he was the best bowler I've ever seen. I was like, how is this guy not playing professional cricket?

And bowling at the captain as well.

Yeah.

You want to play. You want to play the next Test match. if you're on the net list and you're like, right, I've got Cook first up, you're like, right, well, I'm gonna— I've shined this ball all night. I'm gonna go and get out my bag and I'm gonna show him why he should pick me. So I've no doubt as well that captains had a harder time of it in the nets because everyone is wanting to vie for a spot.

Because at that time you picked 12, didn't you? And it was always the spare bowler in the squad. And so there's always normally like, obviously Broad and Anderson probably picked themselves and then there was one seamer place. It was either between whoever, Finn, Wood, Bresnan, whatever. So you as a captain, you did actually— I don't know why, but it was Flower's mind, wasn't it? Like, yeah, you go in there, let them bowl at you to see which— not that we were picking on nets, but it felt like it at a certain time.

Let's talk about what it takes to, to be a fast bowler in this modern day, Woody. Obviously you've talked there about, you know, injuries a little bit ago, and you've almost got to be prepared to go through pain to, to be able to perform as you want to. But In this modern day of all these different formats and how you manage your body, how do you do it?

Good question. I think there's a lot of factors. I think little 1%ers, things like looking after yourself, nutrition, good sleep, all those kind of standard things, physio, and the mountain table. But Finny touched on before that you never feel the same day to day. So your action, we talked about actions before, but I would say that I never rocked up the next day and felt exactly the same as the day before, whether something slightly different. So I think the challenge for a modern-day player when going across the formats is still being able to execute your skills while not feeling either right on top of your game or, you know, bowling at 96 miles an hour every time. Like, you have to manage that expectation of that you're not going to feel it every time, but how can I perform well for England?

You've been closer to addressing them. I retired 3 years ago. Cookie, similar. What do you get the sense of young fast bowlers Now and their priorities? Because when we grew up, we're similar age, your priority and your way to make a name and a career for yourself was Test match cricket and playing in whites. Do you sense any sentiment change in bowlers to protect themselves from a younger age to play the shorter format, or not really?

No, I do. I think there's, I think there's a big change in general. I think even things like gym work, so there's a lot less bowling now and more gym work done. That then lends itself a little bit more to the lesser overs because you're conditioned to bowl less overs and then, you know, and that kind of thing. I also think that it's changed in terms of mindset. You can go all around the world, you know, earn a lot of money just playing white ball cricket and then Test match— I mean, I would always put Test matches first, but it's not always at the front of everyone's mind. If you think that you're not going to make it there, then why not try a different avenue? to play for England or a different avenue to make lots of money. So I just think the game— like now you can go into a dressing room and everyone's— you're sat there about to play for England, but you're sat there talking about who's going to go for what in this auction, who's going to go on in the IPL, and that kind of thing. So it's definitely on everyone's lips a little bit at the forefront of people's minds more than previous years.

Yeah, I was actually just going to go back to that rhythm point. You know, you're talking about like how I have no understanding of it. And you know, you're like, how are they not bowling? How's Joffre not bowling?

But you do as a captain. No, but it's got to be. Because it's at first slip.

Absolutely. But I actually now got way more of it since I've started doing long-distance running. And that, like, certain days, like, it works and you're hitting the times you want to hit and you're putting in way less effort. And there's other days like, why today? I say I've got a target run of Whatever minute bouquet, and I can't get there. And I feel that must be the same for a bowler. Like, so you're on the same thing, you're doing this exactly what you think you're doing the same, and yet it's coming out to like peanut paste or something for you, Finney. But like, as in, like, and then other days you just, for no apparent reason, you're running this and it just clicks. And I've got a real understanding of that now.

I wish he'd known that when he was captain.

Oh no, I think he plays it down a bit. I think you have a sense and understanding when you stand at first slip. about how the ball's coming through. But I, I felt as though my quickest days were the days where I wasn't actually trying to bowl quick. Everything was just flowing. There's this like beautiful snap when you land. Your first ball comes out and it goes through to the keeper like that, and you look up on the screen, it's like 89 miles an hour, and you're like, okay, this is— I'm on today. This is one of my days. Whereas you'll have other days where you're, you're sprinting You'll try and hit the track hard and it'll come up 85, and you think, I've tried so hard there, why is it— why does it come out like that? So actually, the hardest thing sometimes, I think, for a bowler is to allow yourself to just feel that rhythm, and then everything seems to click into place better when you're— when you're feeling like that.

So, I mean, the quickest spells I've seen you two— obviously, Headingley, I wasn't playing, but up here when you bowled against Australia here, that, you know, that was— I reckon it's quickest bowling I've seen live. And then your spells in New Zealand, do you remember that white ball stuff where we, we were outside the 30-yard circle?

Yeah.

We were like— I think you're off your shorter run as well, and it absolutely trammed through. And it's just, it's weird, isn't it, how just your body can then be in sync perfectly for such short periods of time. When you're— when we're talking express pace, we're not talking like a Jimmy. There's no disrespect to Jimmy, but Jimmy, for the most— the latter half of his 85-year career, like the 15 years where he was like An 83-mile-an-hour— obviously bowled 90 when he was younger, but, you know, most times slightly within himself there. But you guys in particular, your extra, your super strength was being able to bowl at that 90-mile-an-hour mark. And it's just that those little periods when it clicks is extraordinary.

How important is technology now for you guys? Because I remember the story of Dennis Lillee talking about he was really struggling in a Test match one day and he went down into the trucks and spoke to the director and said, can I have a look at my bowling action? And that helped him tweak something to then go out and perform at his best. And we know that Brett Lee used to visualize by watching loads of videos of himself before going out and playing in a Test match, through watching his action and just seeing him do well. How much of the technology stuff comes into play just to fine-tune things during a Test match? And I heard Broadie the other day talk about you used to wear the GPS tracker, which gave you an indication of how quickly you were attacking the crease.

Yeah, I've watched a few clips of myself. They're around about 10 seconds though, the good days, so that's— mine didn't take that long. Um, the GPS thing's the main one because then you get the pace of your run-up, you get the, um, velocity and intensity in which you're letting go of the ball. That, that's probably the best thing to get with the, the data, guys. I think for me, and Finney touched on this a little bit, so I think he might be similar to me, but me, it's more like if I shut my eyes, I can still feel my action when I bowl fast. So it's not It's not so much I kind of describe to somebody. I just know the feeling coming up through my body when I'm about to release the ball. When I'm on, I could feel that action of boom, like it's gonna— I can release it and really feel that through my body. I think in the latter part of my career, I had that more consistently than the early part of my career because I trained it a lot. I bowled a lot, so I knew how to find that feeling quickly or quicker. And that meant that in training, I could bowl at 80 to 85%. Within myself, get that rhythm, get that feel. And then when it came to the game, I was, I was ready to, to let it roll.

Well, now, you know, we're talking about training and technology. You know, back in the day without the technology, people just bowled. You know, that, you know, the, the '80s, and I just picked up a ball and bowled and bowled and bowled.

105 miles an hour.

205, actually. But, um, but, you know, now there's technology in it, and of course you can use that science, but How hard is it to get that balance right? You're saying the amount you bowl and the amount of gym work you do, that balance seems to be always—

and it's not the same for anybody, is what I would say. Do you agree with that? I agree. It's different for everybody.

Yeah, I, I would be a bowling bowler. I— you prime yourself physically to make sure that you're in the best possible place you can be, but I would need to bowl and feel that feeling to then allow myself to be free when you go to a game. And I think that The thing about fast bowling, or the thing that I felt when I was bowling at my quickest, was you needed to go into a game feeling free to be able to just to let go and trust yourself. I think at the back end of my career, I used technology the wrong way because I was obsessing too much about getting in certain positions and trying to marry up what I looked like then versus what I looked like at my best. And you're constantly chasing your tail.

Yeah.

lacking confidence and knocking your confidence the whole time. Whereas when you're at your best, or when I was at my best, I was completely free to just feel that. Mine was a zip off the end of my, my bowling fingers. There'd be like a sting and I'd get a little cut in my nail that would like— it would rip the nail and, and go towards the middle of the, the nail bed. But when I had that, I knew that everything was ripping down the back of the ball. Um, and there was that feeling. What are you laughing at?

I'm just laughing at a little, little nail.

No, but I'm not moaning that it hurt.

Oh, sorry, I thought you were.

No, no, no, no, for a change not. But it was that I'd look down, I'd see my nail ripping, and I'd be like, I've got that zip today. I can feel that zip off the back of the ball on my fingertips.

Yeah, it's a feeling of flying, I imagine, for you both. Workloads, I imagine you have to have a lot of trust in the doctors and the science and medicine and the physios because they're the ones that are giving you the information about how much you probably need to be bowling in a day and then feeding that back to the coach and captain and I imagine, Woody, when you know yourself and you know your body, sometimes you might, you might say, well, actually, I think I could do more than that.

Yeah, I fell out a few times because I hated the computer says no data, or you've got— you're in the red zone, or you've got this many overs to bowl. I used to hate that. Sometimes I wanted more, sometimes I wanted less, and I was very much someone that went on gut feeling. Unlike what Finny says there, sometimes I would go with bowling less if I felt good and I knew straight away that it was coming out well. I'd be like, right, I'm ready to go. Strengthen my body up in the gym and try and— so I wouldn't just bowl and bowl and bowl. There'll be some days I think, right, I'm on it here, and then some days I need to bowl more. So it was always a good feel with me. It wasn't almost like I have to do what this computer says. And computer says today you have to bowl 8 overs and train, and I would be— I'd hate that, honestly hate it. So it also depends on what you're actually going to do, because if it's— if the computer tells you to bowl 6 overs to get your workloads up, Is that 6 overs just bowling at a mitt at like 50%? Because that's— how's that helping you? Or is it 6 overs full bifter, you know, trying to be as quick as you can so you're ready for the game? So it's almost like, I think you're much better just having a conversation and, you know, going from there.

We should do bowling on the Mark Wood full bifter scale. Are we going full bifter or not?

Cookie, how much of that information are you getting as a captain? Because I'm just thinking about Joe Root here now and how he's managing his bowlers, and in particular Jofra Archer. You know, the first time around there was a lot of criticism around how he used Jofra and that he maybe used him a bit too much and that maybe led to injury. But how do you manage it as a captain?

Well, during a game, you— it's kind of irrelevant. And, and unless you've got someone who's just come back from an injury And you do have a chance to just be careful with him this game. But majority of the time, I reckon that happened 2 or 3 times.

With who? Which bowler?

I just can't remember now. But I do remember saying, just, you know, like, he's just come back. Let's just don't. But most of the time, you are left to your own devices as a captain. You're just playing the game situation. Everything happens for the reason, you know, you're out there. They've been selected fit. for it. You know, a lot of that work is definitely on when we— on our warm-up games. When we— when they are— we used to have warm-up games. I was, you know, very clear, like, Finn bowls 15 today, Anderson bowls 10, you know, within— within a figure or whatever. That— that between— that 100% happened. But during the game, it's who's the best bowler to bowl out there. And occasionally— and occasionally you would— you don't— you know, someone went down with an injury and You know, someone had to pick up a thing and bowl, you know, 10, 15 overs, or you end up with 30 overs in the game because you only had 3 seamers or 2 seamers. And that was just the way it is.

And that's absolutely the way it should be. Yeah, you're playing for England, you're being paid to play for England. Like, how— it's— if you didn't dream of doing that as a kid, then why are you playing this sport? Like, if you're being paid to play, you should be putting in your 100% effort every time. And if the captain says you're on, you're on.

And then that's the way it should be. I've never had ever— shouldn't be anything different from that. Never had a I'm not bowling from anyone.

But like, even like, I mean, like a workload's point of view, you should never say, oh, you can only bowl this much. If you're fit to play and you're being paid to play for England, you bowl when the captain tells you to bowl.

Yeah. You and Monty had a standoff in Wellington in New Zealand about whether square leg was up or back.

Well, I think it was where extra cover was, where he wanted it, and he Refused to bowl if he wasn't 73 yards out in the right place. He wanted an extraordinary field. But then I just had to move him and then tell who— I can't remember who it was at extra cover. So as he walked in, quickly leg it, strike it, walk in in a different direction.

The only time I think it's acceptable is, you know, if they're like 500, 600 ahead and it's like a 5-match series. What's the point? And then in that 2 down, what's the point in then risking your bowler for later in the series? You might then bowl like a spinner or something then, and then say, right, we'll get through a few of us because they're about to declare. That's probably the only time I can think of where I think, right, fair enough. But all the other times you should be about to bowl fast the whole time.

So you're telling us that no bowler ever came up to you and said bat first or bowl first at the toss?

I know all bowlers, everyone was telling us what to do, but I was just— yeah, the bowlers were brilliant really. Because it is, it is a thankless task on certain occasions on a flat wicket, and it's hard, it's hard, and the batters are batting well because they're allowed to. They're world-class players. It's, it is a bit of a thankless task because you are running in and you're getting nothing from it. But so, and as a captain who doesn't bowl, you are relying on these 4 or 5 people to take the wickets.

But we had a mantra as well that even if we were up against it in a game, you give nothing of yourself to the opposition in those situations. So Cookie was massive for it. So was Andrew Strauss. But even if we were up against it, you still ran in. And as bowlers, you set the tone in that scenario as well. So you're running in, you're trying your hardest. You're not just going through the motions because that says a lot about where you're at as a team, especially early in a series. If you then want to try and fight and come back into it, keeping going is something that is an absolute non-negotiable.

You've got the record, haven't you? For most covered, most Ks covered in a Test match. Yeah, yeah, 60-odd Ks or something. Yeah, it was a lot.

It was like a couple of marathons, you know.

It was, um, yeah, I think you— but you kept running. My point is you kept running, didn't you? So it was flat as anything at Cape Town. Wasn't that where Stokesy whacked it out?

You were at 280. How many did I bowl? Yeah, I think it was 43, something like that.

Do you get any from my data? I always talked about that. You— yours was the highest.

In terms of COVID that was 211 overs in the field. We did that, that innings.

I mean, that is ridiculous. So how do you recover from something like that? Just to kind of describe it to the listener who doesn't know much about, you know, the distance that is covered, how much distance did you cover in that Test match, and how are you looking to kind of get yourself back and ready to go again?

Well, yeah, I think it was 60, so it's a marathon and a half in the end that I covered across the 211 overs. Well, I ended up tearing my side in the next Test anyway, so maybe, um, maybe there was something behind that. But you— I think you just wear it as a badge of honor. You just— and as a bowler as well, you're grazing in the outfield, you're not at slip, so those guys would cover less distance. You're doing— if you get unlucky and there's a right-left-handed partnership and you're trucking fine leg to fine leg, like, you just— you wear it as a badge of honor. And I always just saw it as part of the job. Like, you're doing your role for the team. You run in when the captain asks you and try your hardest. If a ball goes to the boundary, you chase it. And I, it was— I just found it really simple.

I refused to wear those GPSs because I didn't want anyone to know how little I actually did. This guy's covering 60k over, over the 200 overs. I reckon if I'd have covered— well, you could probably work it out. 200 overs from walking from first hit to first slip, possibly slip when the spinner was on. I was at short mid-wicket, so that's carved that. So if I'd have been best doing 3K, um, and then you got these guys doing 60K. You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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I'd say the one thing about fast bowling, which is another balance, I think, We find, we find as, as captains and as sides is when you get a fast bowler who comes in and can bowl 90 mile an hour, it is unusual. And it is that enforcer word, which is a really horrible word, actually. That enforcer role is actually a really hard balance to get right.

Hmm.

Because as a captain, you know how uncomfortable it is, certainly as a batting captain, if someone is coming in, you've got that bowler who does bowl, you know, Mitchell Johnson, in that 2013-14 series, or you've got people who have the ability to bowl short pitch bowling like Wagner. There's a different pace, but that kind of thing, you do still feel it as a weapon. But actually entrusting one bowler to do it, that word— like, it was Broadie for the first probably 3 years of his career that enforced it. It wasn't— he wasn't the best bowler from it, but actually sometimes he did work for the side. So it's— I wonder how these guys feel about that word.

Well, Joe Root now has the benefit of having quite a few That can bowl late 80s now in, in that squad. And we saw it, didn't we, in Australia? They went with a squad that, you know, had 4 or 5 bowlers that could bowl upwards of 140 kilometers an hour, just like the Australians do. They have about 20 in their domestic circuit all bowling that, that sort of pace and bounce. And in that first Test match, it was raw pace, wasn't it? It was raw pace and aggression. Yourself and, and Jofra and Gas. It was It was just amazing to watch. But do you feel like there should have still been space for, for the bowler that could just nibble it around a little bit as well, Cookie?

Absolutely, on those wickets. I, I, I, I, unfortunately, uh, the, the planning for that tour was, was wrong, you know. Like in 2017-18 when we were— my last tour there, we had a lot of medium pacers and we never got— we didn't get 20 wickets very often because the wickets were flatter and they needed— you needed something different on flatter wickets with the Kookaburra ball. And I can't remember the COVID one, the one we've all forgotten about, but leading up to this next Ashes series away from home, like, the Australia wickets had changed and the management had decided that the only way to win Australia because of of previous experience.

You needed pace. So the balance was wrong?

Balance was wrong because the picture had changed and they were slow to react. They tried to plan 2 years in advance of getting all these guys fit on the plane, and you actually didn't need it. Now, they went down that wrong— Woody's now— I'm sort of shuffling away from Woody a little bit because he might have a different view.

But I was there in '17-'18. Did you not play? No, not one game.

I wasn't skipper though, was I? I was skipper. Don't blame me for that. But that's, that's what You know, that's what happened. That's— that is the facts. And the selection wasn't right for the whole tour for that.

I hated that enforcer role. I felt like it took away— that was the right time for it as well. But I felt— I certainly feel in my career that I was— sometimes I played a whole game where I only bowled bouncers, and sometimes I thought, well, I'm better, I'm a better bowler than this. And then if I only did that, now the person at the end of the day, like, it's my role on the team, absolutely fine. If the captain needs that, the captain needs it, right? I will do that. But it hurts me at the end of the day when I've got 1 for, you know, 90 and they say, well, this guy's got 4 for 30 or 4 for 40 because I've just bowled bouncers the whole time and they're scoring off it and you're trying to create chance. But you're trying— what you've got to try and remember is that you're doing it as a collective. So I didn't like that name or that role because it made me feel like it was less skilled, if that makes sense. But yeah, I—

You were just the only bowler that could bowl upwards of 85 miles an hour.

Maybe, maybe. I still didn't mean that I like it. I understand what Chef's saying. I think what you do need is, no matter where you go in the world, you need a balanced attack. We tried to copy Australia, and unfortunately their attack had Borland, their attack had, you know, other people who could do that and put us under pressure that way. And we weren't as accurate as them. Even Hazelwood, who bowls 85, 86, he's very accurate. Cummins, 87, 88, 89, he's very accurate. We just probably weren't as accurate as we could have been.

Are they the best fast bowling attack in the world at the moment, the Australians? There's a lot of talk when we go to Australia about—

I think they have been for a long time.

Starc, Cummins, Hazelwood, and Nathan Lyon up against McGrath, Warne, Gillespie, Lee. But Starc, Cummins, and Hazelwood together, they've taken over 1,000 wickets between them. They just keep coming at you.

Well, I think it's that combination of pace and accuracy that makes them unbelievable bowlers. Um, and I, I think Mitchell Starc is, is a, is a great bowler, but I think Hazelwood and Cummins, they're just— their relentlessness of smashing a good length at high pace with good tall actions. I— yeah, those two are two guys that I love watching bowl.

And I like all the actions. I have, as much as it pains me to see it, I have Action envy with all of them. I watch them bowl and I think, I wish I bowled like that. Look at how smooth that looks. Look at the way he gets them. 3, they've got good fast bowling actions.

You talk about balance, that is that you've got 3 very different bowlers as well. Like the Starc, I think the Starc complements those 2. You take Starc out of that attack and I think his, his being such a strong left-armer actually has helped Cummins and Hazlewood no end. Take Starc out of that attack and it's— I actually, I think it makes a massive, massive difference to those 3. But they are, you know, they're lucky because, because you need a bit of luck. You can't choose who you grow up with.

But he's an amazing spinner.

And an amazing spinner. That 4-man attack, brilliant. And they deserve every credit they get because they have turned themselves into, if not one of the best, if not the best attack, certainly up there in history of cricket, a bowling attack which everyone had envied.

There are guys at the moment that I love. Like, so I mean, Woody will find this out whenever he moves up into the commentary box, but like you get excited about coming to watch bowlers bowl now when I do this job. Woody was one of them. Hazelwood and Cummins, Rabada from South Africa. I really enjoyed watching Willow Rourke from New Zealand in the series earlier this summer. There are guys that you get excited about coming to work. To watch. You've missed your number one out. Who? Bumrah. Have you? Well, Bumrah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. You've written books about that, Blake. I have. Yes. And Bumrah as well. That's like my list of. That is my list of bowlers that I get very excited when I wake up to do this job to to watch.

Yeah, it is amazing, isn't it? Really, the the fast bowling that we have around the world, but. across history, it's been incredible. And we heard Agus talk about Waqar and Wasim and the era that they, uh, were together and intimidating batters all around the world. 1992 was at their peak, really. 414 wickets for Wasim Akram and Waqar, 373. We'll go to Jimmy and Broadie. 704 for Jimmy Anderson. Stuart Broad 604 wickets over 150 Test matches. Jimmy ended up playing 188 Test matches as a fast bowler. Phenomenal. I mean, that is ridiculous, isn't it?

I don't think he had one operation, did he?

No.

Unbelievable. Did he not? I think so. Not one.

Do, do you imagine that we're never going to see that ever again because of the, the way the modern world is around fast bowling and T20 cricket and You know, the laws of the shorter format. Can you see a fast bowler playing that many over 100 Test matches?

I, I think it'll be unlikely.

Not 180. I know it's not just over 100, it's 180.

A daddy hundred.

Yeah, it's just under 200.

Yeah. Wow.

I think it's highly unlikely. You can never in this day and age anyone say never say never, can you? Because you know, records are always going to be broken. Who would have thought anyone would get near Sachin's record? And there's a chance that—

I don't think anybody stays fit for that long though, across all the formats. Like Jimmy at one stage played everything. Yeah. And then he just went to Test matches at the end. But to not have it— he's either genetically built differently, as in like his tendons and everything, or he's just been incredibly lucky. But to not have one operation throughout that long of a career at the highest level, day after day, waking up and being sore and Tired and like muscles then pulling and stuff. He's either genetically different or he's been incredibly lucky. I think if you watch his action, beautiful action, smooth as butter, like lovely to watch. So that certainly helps. But he's kept himself fit for a long period of time. That also helps. But you know, you could say these things, you know, till the sun comes up. But that's a lot of games. Even to say if someone's got smooth action and kept themselves fit. You know, you'd be the fittest bloke in the world and not play 180 Test matches. That is a lot.

I'm just looking at Jasprit Bumrah, 52 Test matches, over 200 wickets. Dale Steyn, he's the best, I think. 93 Test matches, 439 wickets. I think that was comparative to a 15-year career.

Yeah, and comparative to the era that he played in. So I think wickets are more sporting now than they have been before in Test cricket. And I think staying in an era where a good bowler averaged in the late 20s, I think he stood so far ahead of everyone else at the same comparative time. He was so special to watch and did it everywhere. Australia, India, here. Yeah, he, he was probably my favorite of all time in the modern, modern era to watch.

How much did you face him?

Yeah, so I actually loved facing him. No, I'd be intrigued to see what my record was against Steyn. Zoltz is not here, so— oh, he is. He's— I was hoping he wasn't going to be here. He's going to prove my— but I think he was a far better bowler to right-handers than he was left-handers. And I hope I've got this right because I played with Dale at Essex. A lovely guy. Like one of the The real competitor on the field, and yet soft as anything off the field, isn't he? He— but I agree, like, brilliantly fast bowler. I just— I, I had more issues with Morkel for Lander than I did with Steyn, I think.

It's a— it's an interesting thing though that Finney says, because he actually did it all over the world. So like South Africa, sometimes you can get real seam in wickets there, and it's great for a bowler to bowl. But like Finney says, he did it in India. That's not really that great for for seeing more fast bowlers, um, and other places around the world. And I once saw an interview from Steyn, and Steyn said he found it more difficult in England with that ball. And Brett Lee said the same. And I— and actually, my record's better away from home than at home. And I don't know if that's—

I, I think it's actually you don't get rewarded as much for bowling fast in England. I actually think it's because the pitch is a bit slower, you know, that bowling bowling fast isn't, I don't think, that good. I'd much rather face a 90-mile-an-hour bowler in England than I would anywhere else in the world because I think that slows the pace or takes it out of that.

Well, Australia didn't pick Starc here, did they? In 2019, they didn't pick Starc in that series for that reason. They felt as though the quick, quick bowlers weren't as effective. On Steyn, We had a team meeting before the 2012 series, and we're talking about the bowlers and how good their bowling unit is. And Kev went, you know, he bowls 83, 84, he gets— he looks to swing the ball against the top order, but gee, he bowls so quick to the tail. He ramps it up to 90 against the tail. You've got me, Jimmy, and Broadie all sat there shaking.

I'm sure you did the same thing, Finny.

I hit him in the ribs that series, which was a big mistake. Big mistake. Zoltz has just strolled in. Excited?

I'm not excited. No, but decent. Cook v. Steyn in Tests, uh, 153 for 4. Um, so average 38. Oh, that's not great. Yeah, it's quite good against a bowler that good. But you mentioned against, against right-handers in his career, uh, he averaged 19.6, and against left-handers, 28.

5. Can you do a comparative of eras, or is that too different? Like him versus everyone else who played in that era?

Um, I can, but I'm not slightly tricky. I wrote, I wrote a piece about it, and I think there was a 5-year period when he was averaging 22, and the next best average of the, of the, I think the 30 bowlers who bowled most in that time was 28 or 29. So as you said, he was way ahead of his contemporaries during those peak years. Yeah, I'll tell you his ability, and I don't know, was that, that I think to bowl that fast— well, not that fast, but quick enough, sorry. Yeah, it was the lengths he bowled. Like, he, he seemed to find that, you know, that in-between length of that drive and not that back. And I can't remember too many times where he, you know, like hit that pitch and people just constantly left him.

He's got that angle into the right-handers. I think his ability to push the ball into right-handers and get it to leave them, but always hitting the splice. So yeah, see so many videos of him with people just pushing forward and it's ripping the shoulder of the bat off and people are taking their bottom hand off. He just, he found this like kick from a good length. Amazing.

But that's the Aussie lads as well. We often talk about how many times does Cummins, Hazelwood, and Stokes get cut. I've never seen a highlight. There's only one highlight reel I can think of. It's when Stokes hits the winning runs. Yeah, that's the only time I've ever seen any of them 3 be cut for For in their whole career, they bowl a fuller length, don't they?

And, uh, well, just talking about them, so having a look at their Test records, 73 Tests for Pat Cummins, Starc 106. And now we're starting to see them having to make decisions about how they prolong their careers as well. So Starc has decided not to play limited overs cricket and, and extend his Test career. They've got 17 Tests this year, so he wants to go for a little bit longer. He's 36 now. Cummins 33 and Hazelwood 35. So 77 Tests for Hazelwood on 302 wickets. It'll be interesting to see which direction he goes in going forwards for Josh Hazelwood. Reverse swing, it's a real art form of the game. It's now an acknowledged art form within the game. Alistair, you were renowned for being the chief shiner because you didn't sweat, but just talk us through the, the art of reverse swing and what it took for the team to be able to, to, to be able to do it?

Well, I think that the big stat about Test cricket, certainly, uh, when we were playing, when the pitches was probably still a bit different— well, they were different— was when the ball wasn't moving either off the pitch or in the air, good players don't get out. So no matter how good the bowler was, the ball wasn't moving. Those periods of play after the new ball or You know, you normally say in England on a good wicket you get 20, 30 overs of ball doing something, and then it got soft and you had a 50-over period where it was flat. And I remember Peter Moores talking about it to us, saying, got to find ways of making that ball move. So to a bowler— and now wobble seam has come in, it kind of was about but not really about, talked about as much. It was— that kind of has negated it a bit because people move. And we basically said, how do we do it? And then Mush Takami came over and he spoke to us about how to do it. And the real key bit about reverse swing was how dry you kept that ball. So, and it was, and it did work, you know, clearly you shined it, you looked up, but it was the dryness of it and being relentless on it. Because if someone with sweaty hands, and Mushy was all over us about it, if someone, a mat led it because at Sussex as well, if someone with sweaty hands touched the ball and put it on the dry side of it, it took up probably another 2 or 3 overs to get it back to the state it was of dryness. So that is— so basically Matt Prior would take it on a reverse-swinging ball and throw the ball to me at mid-off, and I'll shine the ball because I had dry hands.

There was a situation in Sri Lanka, you might remember this, in 2012. So we've got the ball reverse-swinging and we're playing against Sangakkara, Jayawardene, They're piling on runs and we're talking about, we need to keep this ball reverse swinging. We go out after the lunch break, the ball gets hit to deep cover. Samit Patel's out there, he picks it up, throws it back in, and there's this big like white dollop of what is obviously sun cream on the dry side of the ball. So everyone's blowing up because it was a, it was a massive thing. If you messed up the ball in that situation, you would be told about it because it's a whole team effort. And, uh, and everyone's like, Sammy, you've got sun cream on the ball. He was like, no, it's bird poo.

There was bird poo on the ground.

And then it didn't reverse swing for 10 overs. It took us time to, to get it back. But it was— it— my first Test match, I played in Bangladesh where we had to have the ball reverse swinging. We only played 2 seamers. And you, you pick the ball up and you, you were told to flying saucer it into the wicket ends in front of Matt Prior. In order to make the dry side drier and rougher. So it's not cheating, you're just using the conditions that are in front of you. So you'd pick it up, hold it on the seam, and you would sidearm flick it in to make it land on that rough side, um, and then on to Matt Prior. Then it would go to Cookie, who would shine it. And it was this whole process of trying to keep that one side of the ball so dry in order to help us take wickets.

Sometimes, sometimes I had that role of cross-seam and bouncers. Which had nothing to do with the game, but 5 overs of crossing bouncers where you scuff the ball on one side to then allow it to smooth and share.

And actually, sometimes you go, right, we haven't picked a side yet, so you would just bowl crossing bouncers from both ends or something, and you wouldn't shine the ball because it's quick. You could quickly get a shine back up. You look at the ball and suddenly, you know, a bigger scuff mark appears in the ball. And Matt Prior, along with Jimmy or Broadie or Steven, will look at the side. That's Going to be the rough side, and then you would spend 30 seconds trying to shine it quickly. Buffs up certainly the Duke's ball buffed up nicely.

We also did it in England here where we did the opposite of that. So Stokes was big on it where he would he would soak one side of the ball. So that's because in England it's greener, isn't it? So it's hard to get those real dry conditions. So what we ended up doing was I can't remember who told her, but someone like Sri Lanka.

I think Sri Lanka used to maybe shine one side of the ball really.

we'd put loads of sweat on one side of the ball so it got heavier, and then the ball would reverse from there. So it's almost like the opposite of dry. It's like make it damp and as heavy on one side as you can, and then you've got a little bit of tail. It did, but the problem is, is that the ball then gets soft. So for that 10-over period it works, but for the next 10 after that, because you've wet it, the ball's then—

I remember discussing it, and Mushy didn't like that. He did not like that. It was about the dryness of The ball for us. That's in our era.

How much fun was reverse swing though? Like, if there was something that would entice me to come out of retirement and want to strap them on and bowl, if you gave me a reverse swinging ball, that would be deadly, innit? Oh, it's so much fun.

How long would you last with the reverse swing ball after your last appearance?

3 balls maybe. I'd have to go out, out, and then in swing, and then your bat goes. I'm done.

Yeah, I'd have to hope that I'd set the batter up in the Um, COVID, that introduced the law that you weren't allowed to use any saliva on the ball, and that remains now still. So how much harder is it, do you think, to, to kind of keep that one side shiny?

I, I would say quite a lot. I'd say a lot harder. I, I don't know because I haven't played, I haven't really looked at the ball, the difference between them. I would say, yeah, I, I, I think you'd get it back on.

It was all right. You just had to use other methods of sweat, like lower back, upper, upper.

What's the strangest place you've taken sweat from? Jack Meach is a funny one. Derriere.

Upper derriere, lower back. I'm not sure I'm wanting to touch that ball after that. Yeah. Yeah. So you'd have to—

How early are you learning reverse swing?

Very, very early. I mean, I've started it with Kevin Shine. When I went to do England pace programs when I was 16, 17, he would, he would take a ball and out onto the concrete and just scrape the life out of one side on the concrete, and then he'd throw it to you and say, do your worst.

Which of course you can't do in a real-life situation, a real game situation.

Well, the best way to do it is, is if you're a kid, they're like watching or listening and stuff, is tape up a tennis ball, half tape of a tennis ball, and that would reverse miles, and that was always good fun. To learn. Yeah.

No foreign objects can be used. That is in the laws of the game. The umpires— and I am going to refer to the laws— the umpires shall make frequent and irregular inspections of the ball. In addition, they shall immediately inspect the ball if they suspect anyone of attempting to change the condition of the ball, except as permitted in 41.3.2, which is an offense for any player to take any action which changes the condition of the ball. Except in carrying out his/her normal duties, a batter is not allowed to willfully damage the ball. Where are we here?

Very smart, these batters. So we just bowled it. We don't have a clue, but these batters, they may put like a little bit of Vaseline on the eyebrow or a little bit of sun cream on the forehead. They're very clever, these batters. They always find ways. We just bowled it, don't we, Stephen? We're honest.

Honest as the day is long. Well, we just do as we're told. Like when we've told to play the enforcer role by Salazar. Exactly. We do it. We just, we're, uh, yeah, we, we just do as we're told. I, what I would say though, I think in white ball cricket, I think reverse swing is a lost art that should be brought back in 50—

Hallelujah, Steven, speaking from the rafters again.

In 50-over cricket.

Louder.

So bring back reverse swing. It's, um, but I think in, um, in 50-over cricket in particular, one of some of the best and most fascinating passing have played have been reverse swing yorkers. And I think that the law that should be changed, that, um, that hasn't been changed, is if you're fielding at long off and long on, you should be allowed to bounce the ball on the pitch to return it to the wicketkeeper in order to help you get one side.

I'm gonna go one better. I can say in 50 overs, I think it should go back to one ball. Yeah, because the— now with the— especially some of the games, small grounds, Flat pitches. It's just the ball of the like, and I called you chef that. I'm allowed to call you chef. Sir Chef. Sir Chef. And like Sir Chef says, if the ball doesn't move, the best batters play it. So when you're getting like numbers five and six in international cricket at fifty over cricket, and they're just belting it out the park, as a as a bowler, you're limited on margins or smaller. If that tails even just a fraction, it now brings it back in.

It doesn't, but then you're going throwing into the Do the crowd want to see sixes and fours or blokes bowling Yorkers reverse swing?

Well, here's a counter to that. If in 50-over cricket, first of all, I personally would change it to 40-over cricket and play with one ball, but I don't think that's possible. So what I would do is you use 2 balls for the first 20 overs and then the fielding team is allowed to then pick one of those balls to use for the next 30.

Have one minute with one foreign object on the ball and then you play the next 30.

Agreed. And the timer starts now.

You got the umpire going like that. You got sandpaper, you got ball tops.

I'm sure there's a lot of suggestions coming in on the back of this conversation. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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