The state of English men’s cricket

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Hello, welcome to the TMS Podcast. Joining us for this episode, cricket correspondent Stephen Shemmelt. Former England captains Michael Vaughan and Sir Alistair Cook, and will also be joined by the managing director of England men's cricket, Rob Key. We've got a lot to get through, particularly with what's been announced. No changes of personnel, Rob Key, Brendan McCullum, Ben Stokes, all remaining in place. Do you want to go through, Stephen, some of the other things that you have read and watched?

Yeah, it's a tradition, isn't it now, for cricket administrators to gather at Lord's every 4 years to sort of tell us where where an England Ashes tour has gone wrong. I think anyone who's expecting, I don't know, white smoke going over the pavilion or a big document to land on the table today was gonna be disappointed because it wasn't that sort of review. Things that Rob Key and Richard Gould talked about were the performance system around the England team, so that might be the backroom staff or performance staff, team selection where mistakes might have been made during the Ashes and whether or not Players were given too much loyalty when they hadn't carried on their performances, and the connection between the England team and the domestic setup, planning and preparation. So we know England's planning before that series, they only played that one game at Lilac Hill before the first test in Perth, and we know that talks have taken place with Cricket Australia to maybe get a better understanding between the two countries for Ashes series going forward, and also culture and environment because there was a lot of talk during the Ashes and afterwards about the England approach on and off the field. And so the things that England highlighted were having a positive and relaxed professional high-performance environment, new expectations around team behaviours, and better individual and collective decision-making.

Okay, so that's what they discussed, and we'll talk about that with Robin in just a moment. Ben Stokes then put out an Instagram post this evening. Uh, the last 3 months has without doubt been the hardest period of my captaincy journey. It's tested me in oh so many different ways, and I'm sure every other captain has gone through this as well. I've learned a lot about myself, but the most important thing that I want the fans to know is that... He then says, I effing love cricket, I effing love this team, I effing love being England captain, and I've got so much more to give to this role. And I'm so happy that I get to do it with Baz and Rob. We appreciate every single person who supports us. We do what we do for many reasons, but one of those reasons is to bring our supporters and fans happiness and a sense of pride. We will aim to do those things as much as we can in the future. What do you make of this post? What do you make, Michael? And we'll bring Alistair in and then we'll talk to Rob that everybody, everybody stays right. It's, it's, it's, they've had the review. They know where they want to focus. But they're doing it with the same people.

Yeah, I never had any doubt, even after the Ashes. I always felt they were going to keep with this same management group. They've been together for 3 and a bit years. They've had some exciting times, but they haven't won enough. They haven't won the major trophies. So that's something that they can, I guess, use the experience of difficult times in the winter to try and move forward. And as long as they learn as a group, and as a team, understand that playing one way is not going to win you a major trophy, which in our case is an Ashes or a big series victory against India. I mean, it, a lot of this is focused on Test match cricket because it's still the principle here in the UK. It's what we talk about more than any of the formats. We're just on the back end of a decent performance in the T20 World Cup. But, you know, I think of the three suits, I think our T20 team is our strongest. I think our 50-over team has got plenty of work to do and our Test team is exciting at times but doesn't win enough. So in terms of no change, I expected that. That statement is quite a passionate one from Ben Stokes. Very passionate. You know, it's very— and I totally agree. I still feel that Ben Stokes has got a huge amount to offer in this cricket and I don't think Ben's position was ever questioned. I'm sure we'll be able to ask Rob Key that, but it doesn't surprise me at all that they're staying with the same management. Cricket fans and England fans are looking for now is what change? What are they going to change going forward to make sure that they become a more consistent side?

And is that what you want to know, Alistair?

Yeah, well, good evening everyone. I just think the last couple of months, certainly that Ashes series, they just didn't quite play to their potential. Not quite, they didn't play to potential, and that is must be so frustrating for if you're part of the leadership group of that side because that wasn't the best version of that team which we watched. And I think that that will be of a concern that in the big series they haven't managed to do that. They've all been given another shot to be able to do it. Every time there's an Ashes series loss over the last 20, 30 years has been big change. This time it's been done slightly differently, just as this era has been done differently. The fact that there hasn't been change. And I think now as pundits and what we want to look at is, have this group, this leadership group, the side learned lessons from what was a disappointing tour to Australia? And if you learn those lessons as players, there'd be a lot of those players who didn't perform to their potential. Why didn't they perform to their potential? Only they will answer it. The leadership need to answer why they didn't perform to their potential. And then how can this side as a Test side, which I think will be fairly similar, group of players get better.

Okay, Rob is with us. Forget everybody else, anybody else, systems, whatever. What's the biggest thing that you have learned then? If Alistair's talking about lessons learned, what's the biggest lesson that you have learned?

Well, I think one, how much the game of cricket can come back to bite you as much as anything else. I think that, you know, we went in, we thought we'd planned well, we thought we had a side that was ready to go out there and beat this Australian team. And we came unstuck in a number of different ways as much as anything else. And I think that, you know, what happens in sport— and this was part of the decision-making as far as I was concerned with Brendan— was that you end up, you get to a certain point and then you have a smash and it doesn't go to plan. But going through what has probably been the hardest 3 months of my career, certainly in this job or any other, certainly as a player, as Michael and, uh, Alastair will know that once you get out to Australia, that's as tough as it gets. And you spend every moment of the day trying to work out how you're going to win series, how you're going to win games. And when it doesn't work, it's heartbreaking, really. So you then have to have a few honest looks at the things that you've done. And the way we went about things, we didn't give ourselves the best chance. And there's lots of different reasons for that. But there's a difference between not caring about whether you're preparing well and thinking that you're doing the right thing. We thought we were doing the right thing. We thought we got things right and it wasn't the case.

So, so, so—

But what you do hope, sorry, is that what you do hope is that when you go through that hardship, actually you do learn and you should be in a better position to become better at the role that you're in, the coach that you are if you're Brendan McCullum and the captain you are in Ben Stokes.

I suppose the second point then is, when I look at the air, and I'm speaking just as a fan here, Rob, when I look at the areas of focus that Stefan mentioned before, Part A, better utilize the entire performance system, Part B, long-term planning, prioritization, and preparation for all major series and events, and Part C, culture and environment. A, I'm thinking, that's just management speak. What on earth is that telling me? And but secondly, but I am Rob, aren't I? I am. And so, you know, it could be on a high performance podcast that. And secondly, when you were doing all of that anyhow, sure. I mean, you've just mentioned some of that. So where's the detail? Where's the detail? As an England fan, what changes? Because they, to be honest, feel like just words.

No, but that what we, what we did is that we had almost like when we did the written media today, we had a few slides up there with a few of the headings that we go. Now there's loads and loads of pages when it comes to the review of some of that detail into it. So if I go into, say, you take the long-term planning, the, they had like 3 buckets of these things, which I do get sounds a lot like, you know, management speak. But in terms of like the planning for these things, now that's not just a position where I'm at, that's a whole thing for the game in this country, for the ECB in particular, because generally the way that we plan and the way that the schedule is done— and a lot of this schedule is done before I'm in this post, 4 years ago— that we end up playing against New Zealand. Now, there's not a world in where, if you want the perfect preparation, you find yourself playing in New Zealand before you go to the Ashes, but In English cricket, in the world game, in the global game, it's not always high performance. It's not always about what's best for that series that takes priority. We had that through the whole of the white ball under Matthew Mott and Joss Butler. So what we're trying to do is make sure that the next Ashes out there, we have a clear window that we can prepare properly for that. So you can go to the point where you might want to play more matches so you don't find yourself— the same thing happened with the World Cup. People said we prepared better for that. That was done a while ago where we go to Sri Lanka before the World Cup. We were actually meant to play a game on the 15th of January, which was 5 days after the Ashes finished. And that's after New Zealand, after the Ashes. They want us to jump on a plane and go straight away and play a white ball series against Sri Lanka. And Richard Gould was very good actually, and he made sure we didn't have to play those 5 ODIs out there because that wasn't the best preparation. And that's not always been the case when it comes down to planning preparation. That's a thing for people above me, really, to make sure that we don't do it. When we have the next Ashes out in Australia, there's a Champions Trophy. So you want to make sure that in between that and the Ashes, there's nothing else that gets in the way. There's no, oh, why don't we just nip off and play a white ball series there? Because it might be broadcast revenue, it might be those things. So that's part of that, how you try and plan the stuff you're talking about, the MOU with Australia, so you don't end up in a situation where you're playing substandard opposition. They both ways, when they come to us and we go there, you're trying to provide the best of what you can for that team to prepare. Because it's no good having a series like we had in Australia where you have a two, a couple of two-day games, and it actually does a disservice for everyone. No one benefits from that. Australian cricket doesn't benefit from losing lots and lots of money from having games of cricket that don't last long enough. So there's lots of different different things that goes into those subheadings. Things like the selection side of stuff is— for a reason, because we thought we were doing the right thing, we've overvalued loyalty and overvalued having a settled team. Because it might be that the Ashes or a big series is the next one in a year or two's time. But actually what that is, is only 11 tests or 12 test matches. Two of them are in Bangladesh as well. So we thought, what we want to do is make sure we have a team that is settled out there, that we go out there and we're not giving debuts to opening batters, stuff like that. But what that does, it then creates an environment where there's not enough consequence. So they're the things we need to change. We need to be more ruthless with our selection so that the subconscious bar is raised for what we think is acceptable for performance. So there's a lot of things that we had as a plan. But actually didn't work out.

Um, Rob, uh, Vornie here. Um, the review— who was involved in the review, and did you take any kind of advice from external people who aren't involved in the ECB?

Yeah, we did. Richard Gauld in particular spoke to a lot of people.

Who did he speak to?

Um, it was led by him, myself. Well, I think you'd have to ask him and who he spoke to. I think he said today that we spoke to a number of people outside of, uh, the England setup. I'm always to people outside of the England setup. So a lot of my thing is going out there and speaking to people to find out— people I trust their opinion— because when there's a hell of a lot of noise, it's not easy to find out what the signal is between that noise. So there's lots of different people that were spoken to throughout that review, as I've done throughout this role really. We've always— I've always tried to take advice, always said to people, come on then, tell me what is it we're not doing well. So there's a number of external voices that went into that review.

If you had your time again leading into— you've just talked about, you know, 4 years' time, the next Ashes series— what would a perfect preparation look like for an England team in Australia?

I think that what you want is actually to make sure that your players are ready and they're hardened to what they're coming for. So the perfect preparation, you go out there, and if we go there next time, we'll have a side, you hope, because as Alistair said, I think a lot of these players, the bowling attackers, play what, 5, 6 Test matches? Josh Tongue had played before he started the Ashes. They're not hardened to what's coming. So you'd think that you'd end up with a load of players that would go out there and be ready for what Ashes cricket is.

Keegan, I find it quite strange because it's quite obvious, isn't it? Like, when this, when that tour was announced, everyone was saying you know, this, that preparation isn't long enough. You know, that they're not, you're not playing amongst yourselves just for 2 days and then that was ready to go to Perth. And you know, that wasn't, it was all like, all the pundits were saying, well, it's all results driven. If they get the result, then it's fine. But if they don't, then clearly it hasn't worked. Who actually signed that off and goes, that is absolutely fine, 2 days for the players against themselves is fine to work out? And actually, that's the only bit I get frustrated about. Well, who actually is actually responsible for that decision?

Well, we're all responsible for that really. The coach, captain, myself, or the coach and captain are the ones that have to start thinking about how do we get players ready to go out and what's coming for them. And it isn't the case that, you know, we were in New Zealand, we took the— they had a week in between those two series, and then we had the chance. We could have gone to Adelaide. The offer was to go to Adelaide, or it was to go straight to Perth. We felt that we want to keep flying around different parts of Australia and New Zealand. We wanted to get to Perth, and that was the best. We would have, of course, we would have gone to the WACA if we could have done, but that wasn't an option. So the other point is, as I said, it's not about, you know, at the time, I think we'd won every series that we played with that sort of preparation, whether it was going to Abu Dhabi, whether it was not playing lots of cricket but practicing amongst ourselves, and we had 100% record, I think, of winning the first test away. And the other point was that we were falling off a cliff at the end of series. So we were trying to find that balance and trying to get to a series as big as it was where you think, okay, this is what we've done for the last 2 or 3 years, this is what's worked for us, we're going to back ourselves to do that. And it didn't work. Now, would we have won the series had we gone and played a game in Adelaide against an Australian side? Maybe. But would we have stopped the noise? Yes, definitely. But ultimately, I think the perfect preparation is that you have a clear where you can spend a good month almost, or 3 weeks in Australia, getting ready for the series. But that's not always the case.

Let me ask this as a sort of two-part question. When you talk about players being hardened, what do you mean by hardened? And how do you respond to the accusation that the only way England bowlers seem to bowl is when they're actually in the Test team? The rest of the time, they don't seem allowed to bowl.

Yeah, I think it's different for everyone. I think Mark Wood's the exception to that, to the second part of your question. I think the likes of Josh Tongue, Brydon Carse, Chris Woakes is always someone that needs to play lots of cricket. So I don't think there's been a one-size-fits-all in that. Mark Wood, we wanted to try and play Mark Wood in the fifth test against India. He was close to being fit for that, but then had a setback. Then wanted to play him against South Africa in the white ball series, had a setback for that. Then wanted to play him at the end of the championship. Unfortunately, that just didn't work. So I don't agree that it's generally just none of our bowlers. But we'll start the Championship this year, and quite a number of them— Gus Atkinson, Josh Tongue, assuming fitness— will do that. And I think that ultimately Ashes cricket is a different intensity to everything else. And I feel like the only way you can really prepare for that is by playing Ashes cricket. It's a different world. Our players have done pretty well. They haven't got over the line against India. In that series, but that was a tough series. But when you get out there in Australia, the scrutiny, everything else, and it's hard to prepare for that. The only way you feel you can prepare for it is by playing in it. So all of those players, the Jamie Smiths, Harry Brooks, they'll know what to expect a lot more next time.

Rob, the style of play, um, it, it, it seemed a little bit mixed in the winter. So you had the flamboyant, aggressive way at the start that came unstuck particularly in that second innings in Perth. And then obviously the captain played a completely different end of the spectrum at times. How are you going to marry that relationship back in terms of the style of cricket that the captain wants and the style of cricket that the coach wants?

Uh, we've spoken a lot about this, myself, Brendan, Ben. And look, I think the truth is, is that, you know, you said it earlier, we never wanted to be a one trick pony side, a one-way of playing. You know, it's always been a team that you want to adapt, and that's what they did out in the World Cup. You can't play the so-called Baz Balls if Brendon only wants people to play one way out in places like Sri Lanka. You have to adapt, and that's what this team needs to do better. That's what you look now— we don't want to— we still want players that can play against the best bowlers in the world and score runs against the best bowlers in the world, still be able to play an aggressive form of cricket as well as being able soak up pressure. They just have to get better at being ruthless. They have to— not rein it in is not the right word— just be more clinical as much as anything else. That's the key now. That's the evolution of this side. We've spoken about doing it, we haven't done it. And at times, sometimes, you know, what you want for Ben and Brendan is that they're the best at getting the best out of players that I've seen. And that's what you want them to get back Forget about— it's not a tactic, the style of play. It's a way of getting players to think so they can play their best style. We want every player, whoever we pick, to play their best form of cricket. I don't want Joe Root to try and play like Phil Salt, and Phil Salt like Joe Root, and vice versa. Whoever it is, whatever the format, you play your best game. And that's what you're trying to do. And that's what the coach and captain are aligned on doing. And they don't have to agree all the time either. I've got no issue with them if they're slightly coming from a different position.

You talk about them getting the best out of the players. Within the review, was there feedback that England players sometimes require greater coaching?

Yeah, there was feedback that at times we need to get players back into form better than what we do. So that might require more technical coaching at times, that might require out of the series, us being able to provide.

So was the feedback that they weren't getting that?

No, the feedback was generally that the environment stayed united and actually didn't collapse and didn't— there wasn't a massive implosion. But at times, the players felt like they wanted more support and more challenge at times. And that's what we're going to give them.

Did they say that at the time? And if so, why didn't they get it?

No, no, this is post, since we've been speaking. So the review had— people from outside of the ECB, it had every player, every support staff, everyone. And generally, you're trying to find ways. Sometimes it's not one way of doing things. Sometimes players need technical help, sometimes players need, you know, whether it's mental health, whatever it is. And we're trying to put as much of that resource back into it. There was a reason why we took away a lot of— when we started, there was a lot of people in and around the setup, in the dressing room all the time. And we wanted to strip that back. So you want players ultimately to be able to think for themselves and make good decisions. And at times, I reckon we've gone a little bit too far with that stripping back that resource. And they're the things we're going to add back in, but also the system around it so that we can bring in, whether it's consultants, whatever it is, we can try and help our players improve quicker.

Rob, it feels a bit unfair that I'm asking you more questions because you and I have dissected the Ashes in Melbourne and again today at Lord's. One thing I think I thought of on the train back up north earlier on, what will we notice that's different this summer? So the first Test match, I think, against New Zealand is on June 4th, and maybe the squad will get together on June 1st, maybe 2 or 3 days of training. What tangible differences will there be that we in the media or supporters will notice that we can say, yes, that is a result of what has been learned over the past 3 to 6 months?

Well, it just— hopefully you'll see a side that everything should have been done really before that. So we're bringing in, you know, I believe we've got the makings of a world-class bowling attack. They're certainly not there yet. I mean, you think it took Jimmy Anderson 5 years before he became the bowler that he was, and we've brought in someone that Michael will know, maybe not so much Alistair, but in Troy Cooley, who I think is one of the best, if not the best bowling coach around. And it's now his job to make sure— now he's worked with that 2005 team, he got involved with them with the Flintoff, Harmison, Jones, Hoggard, that batch of bowlers. He then went and was involved with Australia, who's had great success, and they've got Stark, Cummins, Hazelwood, those guys. He's been with India as well. So all of these things— he started in Abu Dhabi with the Lions, and hopefully he'll unite the rest of the game and the bowlers in the game, because the credibility that he brings and the expertise that he brings, he'll then be working not only with our bowlers but with all the bowling coaches in the counties to make sure. So when you see what was an inexperienced attack in Australia that weren't consistent enough, I'm hoping that you see an attack that hunts as a pack and relentless in their line and length. And a much better version of what you saw there as they evolved. Um, and you just want to see all of the same thing with the batting. You want to see 150s, 200s, not 70s and 80s and throwing your wicket away. So you still want to see the style of play where they're looking to go out there and be aggressive at the right times, but then you've never done enough.

I, I do find it fascinating because I, I do feel for When you lose at an Ashes and then, you know, you start looking at everything, don't you? And Keyes has been thrown at, you know, the whole lot at him as the job description always says, you know, you get thrown at. But ultimately, you know, they stripped it down. It feels like they stripped it down. Now they're going to build up again. The balance is hard, but the players have to take some responsibility as well alongside of this because, you know, it is down to The players walking out, like Stephen said, you know, what difference are we going to see? Well, it doesn't happen in 2 minutes of a meeting or a 2-day before a Test match. It's a long process to become a very good side. Vaughan's 2005 side wasn't built just before the 2005. It was when he took over from Nassar, it was like an 18-month thing. So I'm looking at this side coming up now, it's like, well, is Stokes going to be the captain in the Ashes series? It sounds like he wants to be in his body. Like, can they now plan properly with all the resources ECB have got, which is a huge resource, so they don't make the same basic errors as they did in that Ashes series? And then you think, actually, they have made, had progress. It's not going to, we're not going to see it in that first hour at Lords, I don't think. In that first Test match. I don't think you can judge it from there.

Keezy, can I ask about county cricket? You know, the perception over the years, whether it's right or wrong, is that you've kind of disconnected from the county game. Is there any thought to try, if that is reality, to try and connect the England team back to county cricket a bit more?

Yeah, there is. There's part of our selection, and today I was trying to be as transparent as possible really, because we've been our own worst enemy with a lot of the things that we've said, and I've sort of listened at times and thought, I wish we hadn't done that, or she hadn't said that. And one of them would have been with Shahid Bashir and Stokesy talking about the WhatsApp group. Now that's true, where we would get, you know, we saw on Instagram or something Shahid Bashir bowling at you, Cookie. We then end up sending him to the Lions with all the best spinners we think that are around, and we have a month with him working all the time to try and work out, is this lad the right one to go? And there were 5 or 6 spinners out there, and after a huge amount of We ended up taking Shahbazir, Tom Hartley, Jack Leach out to India and stuff like that. So what I wanted to explain was that actually our selection isn't done in that way where it's just off WhatsApp groups and things like that. We have a whole scouting network of people right at the start so that are across every single game. And that's people like Richard Dawson, who's the coach of Glamorgan, who I think is an outstanding coach. Kadir Ali, one of the assistant coaches in the county game. Glen Chappell, people like that. There's about, 10 of these scouts that go into it. They would then feed— we have all our analytics, we have the iHawk system that covers every ball, is tracked. We then have our line selection, we have our squad selection. Ed Barney and David Court are in every single part of that, which people also don't understand. But what we're going to add in as well is that we're going to have a— what we're going to— and again, you sort of done me for calling things management speak— we're going to have like a county insight group. Which we're going to run a process and we're going to try and pick a couple of people out of the coaches or directors of cricket or people involved in the second division and two from the first division. So that group will meet 4 or 5 times a year, and with no selector at the moment, that becomes quite an important group because the start of the summer in this cycle, as I said, we were very keen to make sure we had a settled team going into the India series and the Ashes. Whereas now there's opportunity for people. So we're going to need to use that group to make sure we're getting as much information as possible about the potential players that we might pick, the players that actually can show they can score runs against the best bowlers but also be relentless and go and score big runs. So that's one way we're going to try and do it. And there's various things. Like, the truth is, I think with some directors of cricket we have a very good relationship with, and some maybe nowhere near as good. There's some that would have a lot of players that have been in our system, so you end up spending a bit more time with them, but we're gonna try and find a way to make sure they know exactly what England's about.

Have you felt real anger from the county game? Not towards you personally, I mean towards the England setup, the ECB?

I've always been aware that actually, what we've tried to do, we've tried to be brave with selection. It's not simple at times, and this has always been the way. Where it's not always been the person who's the top of the averages that's been the one that you've picked. You know, you look at people like Jacob Bethell, Josh Tung, but there would have been Vaughan Triscott. There's been a number of people that have come in because you've just seen something in them, you think that's the way we want to go. So I, I've always felt that, you know, people have, have questioned that some of those decisions, and hopefully we've been more right than we've been wrong. But we've also gone for the Jamie Smiths, the Ben Duckett, who have been in the county game a bit Longer, Liam Dawson coming back into the Test match, and the same thing in white ball cricket. Then you've got the likes of Sam Cooke and people who will be back on the radar now that Chris Woakes is done. You're starting to look at these people and they're going to become really important. So I think there's massive opportunity at the start of this summer.

Rob, a lot of the stuff— have it— you, you've been an international cricketer. And you've also been a brilliant pundit. Loads of the stuff that you said tonight, I think you would have said as a pundit before the start of the Ashes if you'd seen it all. If you'd seen how the warm-up was or this or that or whatever, you would have pointed out what all the other pundits have said beforehand. So did you go into it knowing that there were certain things wrong? And have you been swayed by a coach who wants to do it his way? And only his way?

No, I don't. I think there's lots of things I read and see that I'd agree with, there's things I disagree with. But I think ultimately, you know, you go out there and you do what you think is the best thing to go and win that series. And I think that, look, the way that we've prepared, as I said, has been successful up until this point. Unfortunately, when it doesn't go well, you understand. And we always knew that if it doesn't go well, you're going to take a hell of a lot of criticism for that. But I've always felt in this job a bit like now where you've got to try and be brave and you've got to make decisions for what you believe in, in spite of what might come if it doesn't go well. If you lose, you're always going to get criticized for it, and that's part of this job.

Katie, Baz McCullum, when will he arrive in the UK?

He's getting there end of May.

So my suggestion would have been, I know he spends a long time away from home, for him to come a little bit earlier and just be seen around the county game, just a little bit. Was there any suggestion that he may do that?

Well, he's gonna, yeah, I think that the balance that I've tried to strike, and it's part of it with the county game, I've actually tried in this role to not be a person that moans about county cricket. To actually let county cricket not be in the way. If they don't, if our players aren't opening the bowling or batting where we think, that's fine because they've got championships to win and they've got stuff to do. And that's probably wrong, actually, you know. So with Brendan McCullum, to answer your question, we're going to meet at, in, um, we're going to, we're meeting, I think, on the 30th, where we're going to have all the DOCs and any of the coaches that they want. Brendan's going to be on that call, so it's not quite your trips around the counties. And we're just going to explain exactly what we're looking for, so there's no doubt about what England cricket or what the England cricket team in all formats needs. So they get the chance to do that. When he was doing the job, part, half the job, him and Ben, we got them all to speak to the DOCs then. Since he's been doing it full-time, I've tried— I think it's a tough job. So I've tried to actually— when you're not in series or on tour, you can actually just get away from the game, which is the balance we've tried to strike. So he's going to do what, what you suggest, just not traveling around.

We, we sort of began with management speak, Rob, so I'm going to be hypocritical now and end with— I'm going to end with management speak. As one of the biggest problems, do you think, been over the last 6 months that this England setup is affected by groupthink and that there hasn't been any room for anybody to push against it and have their own way of approaching the game? Because at best, at best, sometimes the England setup has been described as a clique and at worst as a cult. Can people think for themselves within the England setup or do they have to follow the leader?

No, no, I think they can. There's lots of external advice we've used over, over time, whether it was after the Champions Trophy when, when we went with all pace. We got one person from the, from the English game who wasn't a part of our setup to come in and speak about the things or what they saw. I had someone from the subcontinent as well who actually gave us some massive insight into what we do. I think Bournie and I met in the summer and he spoke about Australia Australia and how spin doesn't, you know, isn't as effective as what it has been over the last few years. The pitches have changed. That was a big part of why we went for Will Jacks. So I do feel that at times it's slightly unfair to think that we haven't. A lot of the time we're actually, you know, it might be lots of people that I speak to to try and work out what the best way is to go from lots of different things. We've got a performance director now from other sports, so they can just I think that cricket doesn't do well with people from outside of the game because it's like you're only as good or only as bright as something depending on how good you were at 26. So we've got a number of different people that are coming in trying to give us a view or helping out, trying to see the world differently to what I do. So I don't agree with that. We just got to get better at adapting.

Rob, can I ask Chappers' question almost in a slightly different way? In that—

Slightly rude.

What are you gonna do, ask it in Spanish or something?

I'm guessing, watch this.

This is the final one and then we'll let Rob go, go on.

In the method that England and Brendon particularly have favored, at the start back in 2022, did that favor a specific group of players that were experienced and thrived in that freedom post-COVID because they had a lot of Test match experience to fall back on? James Anderson, Stuart Broad, Jonny Bairstow, Chris Woakes, Mark Wood, Joe Root, the list goes on. Whereas when the team evolved in 2024 and you then brought in a lot of younger players, Jamie Smith, Gus Atkinson, Shoaib Bashir, et cetera, did they not necessarily know what to do with that freedom? Did they need a bit more guidance? Have they needed almost showing how to play Test cricket where some of those experienced players didn't need that. And is that where the environment has maybe just fallen short and why it sort of, it fell apart a little bit in Australia?

Yeah, I think also we're taking, in fact, Australia are still a very good side. They might not have had Cummins, Starc, Hazelwood, people like that.

Or even before that when the pressure was on against India as well.

When we started, the results that we had, we were playing far outside, far above our potential. We were chasing 350. Jonny Bairstow played— was in the form of his life before he did his ankle, and we went on a run that probably, after a really tough time of it, was right up there. But it was above— actually, you're not going to win games all the time if you're chasing 350. So it gave a bit of a false read on where we were. And as you say, we had an experienced bowling attack at that point. And then gradually, as we've gone, we're now a side without that experience. We've got real potential with the bowling, the batting. There's some world class players there. But there is a chance now where some of those bowlers in particular have to work out, and we've got to help them. But they really, as Alistair will know, that Broad, Anderson in particular did, they said, this is what I need to do to become a world-class performer. And that is what the likes of Tung, Archer, Karst, Cook, Atkinson, if they do that, we've got a real chance of doing something special.

Rob, thank you for giving us your time. Managing Director for England Men's Cricket.

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I'm going to start with you, Alistair, because out of the four of us, I would suggest that you were the one with the best facial expressions on that interview. I think you'll watch it on the iPlayer. And you also look like you're in a very cold studio because you've got your coat on for the whole interview. But it's kind of, or you've got a quick getaway going. You kind of, it wasn't a confused look, I would say. It was just. A bit like, as I put to him, like, this is all stuff you should have known beforehand.

Well, I, I agree. I mean, I do forget— sorry, this is actually on iPlayer.

That's right.

Oh, so I always think it's a radio show. I'm going on a radio show.

Multimedia, Alistair, we're all multimedia.

I know, I'm still a long way away from that on the farm. I, I find it a little bit— I, I, I just— I found that little 45 minutes a bit strange because you're right, all the stuff we've just spoken about It seems the most obvious thing ever. Like, all of us, it's just blatantly obvious. Like, you go to Australia and you don't have a bowling coach you've ever worked with before with a young bowling attack. Like, where is that anywhere near high performance? We've got a pink ball game and a few players have never played a pink ball game, and no one— and they had an opportunity to go and play a pink ball game after the first Test match. And not one player apparently wanted to go and do it. So there's so many things which went wrong on that tour. And then you sit here for 45 minutes and I really enjoy Keezy, but it's all management spills. If they're just filling in forms to say, this is what we have to do because we've lost there. Ultimately, I'm looking at that side and they needed to catch better. They needed to bowl better areas for longer periods of time. I need to get— it's like the 3 basic pillars of cricket they didn't do. And I'm like, so I thought, I'm like, it's so obvious what they need. They obviously, the 18 months, right? They need to go. We've got 18 months to go and win back the Ashes. That's what all the public, what this has shown is how much the public care about English Test cricket and especially Ashes. You know, you have an 18-month goal. How do we get all these players better than they are now so that we can have a chance of the England side can retain the Ashes? Don't worry about managers. Don't worry about all the other stuff. Have a real clear and an understanding of how to get better and be simple in it and actually help the players that way rather than, I don't know, as you say, a cult or whatever. It just got a bit confusing there. And you're right, you are right. It looks, feels like a cult.

It's why I asked those two questions, Michael, of one, that last one on the group thing, but also, you know, being genuine, you know, he's played international cricket. He was a great pundit on Sky. He's not daft. He's definitely not daft. The perception that comes across with both those two points is McCullum was gonna do it his way. And if you weren't gonna do it his way, whether you're the managing director of England cricket or the players, then tough because it was Brendan's way or the highway. That's how it comes across. That might not be right, but that's how it comes across.

My guess is probably he's right. I think Baz McCullum has had a method of wanting to be the way that he's kind of brought this expansive game, very much like he played, very much like he captained, on the front foot, dancing down the wicket to seamers. You know, if you look at the history of English cricket and Test match cricket, how many times have we seen players dance down the wicket to whack seamers? Probably the last 3 and a half years. Guess who used to do that when he batted? Baz McCullum. So You know, you can see what Baz has tried to do, but I do think the attention to detail of this England side up until now, where I'm now starting to hear and see from that interview from Rob and from what I've heard today from the ECB, the attention to detail is going to come back. The attention to detail actually served English cricket really well from around 2003 to 2021. If you look at the amount of Test series that the team won, you're looking at the World Cups that the team won, winning away in India, getting to number 1 in the world. There was a lot of times around that period where the attention to detail was absolutely spot on, and it looks to me like maybe they've gone to Baz and say, Baz, for you to carry on, we've got to get back to just a little bit of attention to detail. I'm delighted to hear that he's going to speak to the counties. I would think from looking from outside, I would hope it's the first thing that you'd want to do as an England coach. I'm a bit disappointed that he's not coming a bit earlier. I think for the optics of Baz McCullum, you know, all right, going on a Zoom and speaking to the Director of Cricket on whenever it is, the 30th of this month, like it. But I just think sometimes, and I don't think he's this kind of person because I don't think he'll ever do anything for what it looks like, but I think at this stage when you're trying to win back the fans, trying to win back a little bit of the game, if I was Brendan McCullum, I'd have come a few weeks earlier, get seen around the counties, go and talk to a few coaches, go and speak to a few umpires, get seen out and about just for the optics, because at this stage he needs the fans and he needs the game to kind of get behind his philosophy a little bit more than we have done of late, because it hasn't quite worked. And he's disappointed in the winter with a, you know, a performance in Australia where we all gave them great hope because we saw an England side that had a chance. And it was the first time that I looked at an England side since Cookie's side in '10-'11 and thought, oh, we've got a chance here. And when I saw that preparation, I went, oh no, And that wasn't the only one, there was plenty who said that. So yeah, I would just summarize today and from these kind of forms that I'm seeing in front of me and just think there's a little bit of the attention to detail that's coming back into the England game.

Are you surprised, all of you, and Stefan, you go first, are you surprised that everybody has stayed in their jobs? So one of the texts, I'll read some of the texts so you can all answer. The ECB message is clear, nil consequence for failing, we carry on doing the same. Pompy Ben for Rob, all great words and systems, but at the end of the day, they could have just bowled properly. I've never heard so much word salad in my life, says another. How to utter so many words without actually saying anything. The disastrous Ashes tour is just part of the problem. No consistency, no adjustment when needed. However, and ultimately things need to change. However, the carpet has been lifted and brushed under. There's no way things will improve as we are.

I'm not surprised that everyone is staying in their job because I think even as long ago as the last Test match in Australia in Sydney, we were being told that Brendan McCullum and Rob Key would be given the chance to put things right. I might be surprised actually that they all wanted to stay in their job. And so from Brendan McCullum's point of view, if, you know, we've just talked about whether or not it's Baz's way or the highway, and clearly there are some, I don't know, things that might be being brought in that he might not necessarily have agreed with in the first place. So back when he slimmed down the backroom staff, he got rid of the fielding coach, and then we had a fielding coach back on an ad hoc basis in Sri Lanka and at the World Cup. I suppose the question could be, are all of the management too inextricably linked? Have they decided we are in this together? And that goes right to the top, actually, to Richard Thompson as the chairman. Don't forget Andrew Flintoff as well as the line coach. These are all powerful figures. In the game, are they too closely linked up until 2027 when Brendan McCullum's contract runs out and when Ben Stokes' central contract runs out and when ideally they want to win the Ashes back at the Oval and all ride off together?

I actually felt if one went, they all went. Did you? They seem to me it's like a football management team that have come in and they're all doing it completely different to what's been done before.

They deny that, by the way.

Well, I'm allowed my opinion.

Yeah.

I honestly think that they're all kind of very similar and they're doing it their way and they'll get till the end of '27 and then they'll probably all go. I think it'll be a time for change and I will say I think they're very lucky, I think they're very, very lucky because there's not many management groups that deliver something so poor away from home in an Ashes series and get the chance to carry on so they are lucky but they've now got that chance and they've now got that opportunity to fine-tune a little bit better, the attention to detail needs to stay, it can't just be spiel on a what, Monday night we're on?

Yeah.

And then by the time we get to the summer and they've won a couple of games, we go back to what's been before. That attention to detail has to stay because there's some challenges ahead. New Zealand at home is not an easy one. Then India come for some white ball. Pakistan at home. South Africa away, 3-match series with them trying to get into the World Test Championship finals. So that's not going to be easy. So there are some challenges for this England side, but it doesn't surprise me that they all stayed as one.

Do you think, I mean, we won't know probably some of the attention to detail behind the scenes, Alistair. Do you think we will get an indication whether they're going on a different path by the first test squad that is selected?

Well, I think we'll understand a little bit more because if they pick exactly the same 11 or similar, then we'll be there. I think the next 3 months is going to be really exciting for county cricketers, because I think a lot— not a lot of those players, but there's a fair few slots, and particularly opening batsman, the wicketkeeper, probably the bowling attack as well, where you could, you could go any number of combinations. So actually, performances for once now will have consequence, I believe, in, in, in county cricket. The only other—

sorry, on that, Alistair, would you think then, which was the way, uh, Stefan brilliantly rephrased my question, do you think If you are an opening batsman in the first 6 weeks of county cricket, you can now play completely your game rather than necessarily, I know it's slightly hard to do probably in April, but slightly adapting your game to be the aggressive, the really aggressive opener that they have wanted in the past.

Well, that's now been proven that's nonsense and that's going to change.

Well, I know, but—

But that's one of the changes that has to come.

But that's one of the psychologies of county cricket of, How much do I play my natural? How much do I have to try and force them?

No, I agree. I mean, sure, they're not, you know, strike rates in the longer format of the game, for me, they're not irrelevant, but at the top of the order, they are. Yeah, we need players that can bat a long period of time to be the number one Test team in the world, which has to be the goal for this side. You need so many facets to be really good, and one of them is you need players to bat a long period of time. Guess what? To wear the opposition bowlers down. So fancy 30s and 40s, they've never won any big series. So I just hope that's the message that they send on on, is it March 30th, that we want players that come back for a long period of time. You know what, playing the big drive on the up probably is not going to give you that chance.

The only other thing I'll quickly say is I think Stokes and McCullum need to feel like they need to get back on the same page. I think in that series in Australia when it, you know, they didn't fall apart as a team in terms of, you know, internals, but actually it looked like a couple of different messages. One from the captain who after the first couple of games said said they know how to play against us, we need to adapt, and he started, you know, blocking a lot more and trying to build an innings. And then Brendan McCullum coming out and saying, we need to still play on the front foot. So that is a relationship which needs to make sure that the coach and the captain, who were for the first 18 months seemingly very close, to make sure they are absolutely on the same page driving for the next 18 months. Just quickly on the county cricket openers, You know, I don't think that any person, anyone in the 18 counties, 36 openers can open the batting. But I do think there'll be 3 or 4 names that the selector will think, right, this is— the selectors will think, right, these are the 4. Who is our best option to say to go alongside Ben Duckett? I think has done enough over the last 18, 24 months to be a pick, even though he didn't have the greatest ashes in Australia.

And he's in the IPL.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I look at someone like Jamie Smith. Smith thing, it's going to be quite an interesting scenario that he'll go back to play for Surrey and he's not going to keep.

No.

Now the one thing that I think Jamie Smith needs to improve— I think he's a very talented batter, but there's areas of his batting that needs to be improved. But there's certainly lots of areas of his keeping, and he's the kind of player that you just need him to be keeping for day in, day out in the county game. But he's not going to get that opportunity to do so.

I think that there's part of, or a lot of, county cricketers that might have felt a bit disheartened that it didn't matter what they did in the county game that the number that they put next to their name wouldn't necessarily put them to the front of the list for selection because they didn't necessarily play in the same way, in a certain way. But listening to Rory Burns, the Surrey captain, talk about this last week, and I think he was one of those players who might think the way that I play wouldn't put me in the frame for this England team regardless of how many runs I score. He said, well, actually flip it the other way and they might see you bowling over on social media or play a couple of shots and you could thrust yourself right into the mix regardless of the number that you're putting next to your name. So he's saying, you know, it could actually widen the pool of players. But coming back to what is going to be up for grabs at the start of the season, Zach Crawley needs a good start. Ben Duckett, it's difficult for because he could be warming the bench for Delhi Capitals right up to the—

I think he's done enough to guarantee a slot. Ben Duckett, that'd be my thinking, that Ben will definitely play. It's just If Zach Crawley goes back to Kent and wins that race, so to win that race, that needs a few hundreds in that opening burst of matches, then you're looking at likes of Hasib Hamid, you've got Dom Sibley, Asa Tribe, you know, Asa Tribe at Glamorgan is a very talented, McKinney up at Durham. So, you know, I think for county cricket, you always, even as a management group, you're always kind of in your right to pick certain styles of players to suit your style of cricket. But I think now, because that's not kind of worked out, I think it's great for the game, particularly April, May, where we always know we're playing cricket in April, May. I think the county game is going to be fantastic because there will be England bowlers bowling, desperate to make sure that they're playing on June 4th, and there's going to be a number of batters that for the first time in a number of years will be thinking, if I have a golden few weeks, I could be playing for England on June 4th.

But you've probably got 4 4, 5 of the 11 in the IPL? I've got Karst, Bethell, Archer, Jacks, Duckett.

I don't know if Jacks, I would say. I think England will be looking for a spinner. Jacks' name is in there, but how they're going to find a spinner in April, I'm not 100% sure between now and June.

But from that Australia, from that Ashes, you've got 5 of them there.

Yeah, that's right. But of the players that could line up against New Zealand on the 4th of June. I think an opener, I think Jamie Smith needs a good start to the season. They're trying to find a spinner, and just because of how fast bowling works with Archer and Karthik at the IPL, and the final of that is the Sunday before that first test, there's not a very long turnaround.

I think, Steph, they need to find the best tone setter with the brand new ball, and I think that could be Sam Cooke. Yeah, Sam Cooke will get— I mean, Ollie Robinson's someone that I've mentioned, but it seems that he's completely off this radar, but he's captain in Sussex. If he has a great start, who knows, he might be back in the mix.

And going back to that point, Alistair, they all have to bowl because that's the other big thing of recent years. The perception is that most England bowlers only bowl if they're selected for England.

Well, I think it was proven that the bowling in the Ashes, you know, over consistency wasn't good enough, and there's a huge amount of room for improvement to become— if you want to become the the best side in the world, which Michael said this side should aim to be, there's a massive improvement just there and then in simple terms. Can they hold lengths better?

That's it for this episode of the TMS Pod. My thanks to Steffen, Michael, and Alistair, and thanks to you for listening.

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