TMS Top 10: Pakistan players

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This is the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

What we're going to do here is that we're going to identify the top 10 players that have played for the Pakistan men's team. We're going to have some considerable debate, and joining myself and Rameez Raja, former Pakistan captain, chairman, broadcaster, Atif Nawaz, and Vic Marks as well. Um, we're going to think about Test and One Day records, performances at their peak, longevity, influences on Pakistan cricket, and how much opponents feared them. And that's going to all form part of the debate. Pakistan, of course, has produced some extraordinary players— elegant batsmen, devastating bowlers, mysterious spinners, and one of the most influential all-rounders the game has ever seen. So, Ramiz, I'm going to come to you First of all, who would be your first name on that list?

It's obvious, uh, it's the great Imran Khan. The fact is, so I was fortunate enough to play under him for about a good 8 years, got to know the man from cricket point of view and from personal point of view, and a complete fighter, hardworking, extremely hardworking, didn't have Loads of talent, actually. You know, people feel that, you know, he became an all-rounder because he was talented. No, he wasn't talented. It was just sheer hard work. And he was ahead of his time because he's physically fit. He would eat certain things 48 hours before the game. And it was just fitness on the job for us also. Plus his leadership qualities. He led from the front. The major thing that he did during the '92 World Cup was that his He was struggling with his bowling. His shoulder had gone. He was, what, 41 or 42 then? And then suddenly decided that since Saleem Malik was struggling at number 3, he said, I'm going to bat at number 3. And his highest score at that time in that '92 World Cup campaign was like 15 or 20. And so we objected to it. It was very rare that we reacted to whatever he wanted to do in that dugout, but we said, that you don't have the form. He says, but I have the experience. And then he proved us wrong because he got runs in the semi-final, got runs in the final. Um, but what a smashing individual, great leader. You know, he would— he had the eye for talent, and then he backed that talent to the hilt. It wasn't a one-off seasonal player for him. So if he figured out that Wasim was the match winner for him, then Wasim would have to follow a certain routine throughout the tour, right? What to eat, what not to eat, how much to train, how much not to train. And the fact remains— and Vaaz will tell you about this also— that he was struggling with the no balls during the '92 World Cup. He had bowled something like 25, 30 no balls. And so Imran suggested that, do not try to bowl slow to adjust to the no ball problem. Just go flat out and you'll get it right. Little things like that, you know, and what kind of field to set. I mean, we were the only team that would have 3 slips and a gully in a one-day game against Australia. So, and, and he said, he put it in our, in our mind, either we're going to win or we're going to lose. So he took away the draw mentality from us, which was kind of a go-to guide for most Pakistani cricketers in those conditions. You know, we'd be quite happy drawing us a series against England, for example, or Australia. But under him, it was full guns blazing. You know, we're going to win. And then he rightly said, you know, you pick a different team when you want to win. You pick a different team when you want to draw a series. So he wasn't defensive at all, whether it be Test cricket or one-day cricket. And what a player.

Yeah, complete change of mentality that he brought to Pakistan cricket. Of course, we're talking about Imran Khan, the player and the captain. But we must acknowledge the current situation. And while we cannot comment on the politics, on a purely human level, We hope he's okay. Wazim Akram, speaking to him over the years, has always spoken about Imran Khan fondly and just how he helped with his development as a player. But Vic, you you want to say something? Would he be the first person on that top ten?

Oh yeah, I don't argue with that. I mean, I played with him around Oxford actually when he was still he wasn't quite so quick then, but he was bowling his big in duckers. And then by the end of his time at university, he was starting on them. And he can bowl quite sharply as well. But I'm pretty sure, but Ramiz will tell me, that when he was made captain, one of the first things he did, which would have taken some doing, was to omit Majid Khan, his cousin and one of the great legends also. And he sort of dropped him, if only to prove that I'm, you know, I'm not gonna be in any way sort of parochial and sticking with the old guard, my family and all that stuff.

Sure.

So it was quite a state— it must have been quite a statement. to go to drop Majid Khan. Yeah, he's a fantastic player.

And people say that, uh, they're not on speaking terms even now.

Really?

So yeah, I mean, Majid took it to heart. Absolutely. The other great thing about Imran was the neutral umpires.

Yeah.

Because he introduced the concept of neutral umpires. And this was in Sri Lanka in, I think it was '85-'86 tour. And we're sitting, um, in the lounge hotel lobby, and he said, you know, no other sport would have the local umpires umpiring a local game. So it has to be— and we were always looked down upon. Whenever we won a series back home in Pakistan, people would say we cheated. And that didn't sit well with Imran at all. He said, look, this has to be worked at. And so we then introduced the neutral umpires.

He was way ahead of the game on that.

Yeah, 100%.

I think it's quite telling as well, actually, that, you know, he last played more than 30 years ago. But if you ask a 30-year-old Pakistan cricket fan, they'd probably tell you as well the first name on their all-time top 10 list is Imran Khan. That's the legend of the man. It's a bit like people who've never seen The Godfather, but they know it's a great film, right? It's that's what Imran Khan is. Is this sort of legend? You know, you might not even look up YouTube compilations or anything like that. There's a big thing, big trend amongst young cricket fans to look up YouTube compilations. I know when Sir Garfield Sobers passed away, people were looking up clips and. How great was he and things like that? How great was Brian Lara? So on and so forth. In Pakistan, they tend to look up the fast bowlers like Shoaib Akhtar and Waqar Younis and Wasim Akram. But Imran, you might not look, but every single Pakistan cricket fan instinctively knows if they start a list of great Pakistani cricketers, you have to start with Imran Khan. The iconic image, 1992 World Cup crystal water trophy. Everybody knows it. It's like the national anthem. Everybody knows what it is around the world. Anybody with a cursory association with Pakistan knows that if you know nothing of cricket, the one thing you know is it's that thing that Imran Khan did for Pakistan. And so that's the level of the guy. And that's why I don't— I think he's the only— the immediate thing you think of Pakistan cricket in its greatest moments, that's the image that comes into your head.

Well, to sort of put him in historical context, not only would he be the first name on the list of Pakistan's greatest players, but you could make an argument that he'd be up there in the top 5 from anywhere, certainly in, in Test cricket overall. 88 Tests, averaged 37 with the bat with 600s, 362 wickets, averaged 22.8 with 23 fifers. But if you look at Imran's peak, um, he made his debut as a young man, took him quite a long time to really, um, establish himself in Test cricket. But from the start of the 1980-81 international season to the end of the series in the West Indies in 1988, 44 Tests, averaged over 40 with the bat, and 216 wickets, averaged 17.5. Um, one of the greatest sequences, possibly the greatest sequence an individual player has ever had in Test cricket. And there's one specific series that showed quite what an extraordinary bowler he was. Pakistan played India in a 6-Test series in the 1982-83 season. Imran took 40 wickets at an average of 13.9. The rest of Pakistan's attack took 41 at an average of 48. And India's bowlers collectively took 49 wickets at 60. In the 3 matches Pakistan won— it was a 3-nil series win with 3 draws— Imran took 30 wickets for 339 runs.

That's incredible.

So not only was he phenomenal over a prolonged period of time, but that specific series, you could make an argument that's the greatest single series any bowler's had in Test history.

There's an odd parallel with— I mean, England had Ian Botham at that time, and Imran's career was the polar opposite in that he started early with modest success and the graph just kept getting better and better and better. And Ian's career Start absolutely staggering, and then there was a sort of— it went down the other way.

Yeah, it was just the fitness also. One incident I remember— talk about great leadership, and a leader has got to be selfless. So Javed was playing against India, and this was before my time actually. I think a couple of seasons before I actually made my debut. And Imran declared him when he was 280. And, um, and so Pakistan fans were up in arms saying, you know, so near getting to that 365. But Imran mentioned that, you know, winning is more important than individual milestones. So Pakistan won, and I think it was against India. He then bats against Sri Lanka, and I remember because of playing that game at Faisalabad, he's 92 or 94. And he declares the innings just to make a point that, you know, individual scores are not relevant in a team sport, which was like— and we were stunned because he said, okay, fine, we're declaring. And he was 94 not out.

Yeah.

So I mean, it's that kind of a character.

What does that do to the dressing room?

I mean, you were— we were absolutely scared of his personality, number one, because he's a no-nonsense kind of a guy. So, you know, and it was Like a 10-year-old talking about the game all the time. So he was restless. He was like, you know, when we were going out to bat as openers, he had already padded up at number 7. And so we would ask him, you know, what's wrong with you? I mean, either you don't believe in our skills or you're jittery or nervous. He says no. But so what he would do is with tennis ball, he'll start practicing the pull shot and he'd be like a kid.

Hmm.

And he'd talk about the game all the time, which was astonishing. And we were being fed with stories and you know, with technique and how to take on the opposition. I remember once we were playing in New Zealand and it was a 3-day game. Richard Hadlee was still bowling quite quick and I opened and he took me to the side and says, you know, he doesn't like being hit and he doesn't bowl a lot of bouncers. So if he bowls you a bouncer, pull him and he'll not bowl a bouncer again to you. I got a 70-odd. He bowled me one bouncer. I played the pull shot for 4, never got another short pitch delivery from him.

Hmm.

So that kind of education And reading the opposition.

Yeah, this is fascinating and hearing about Imran Khan, the leader. But Ramiz, what about him as a player? We've just heard the numbers there. Yeah. And so, I mean, a lot of contributions both with bat and with ball. But if you can just allude to how influential he was.

He was extremely influential. So he'll put himself in a very, very tough situation and then, you know, Both with the bat and ball. He wasn't a natural. I mentioned that earlier. You know, he had to work extremely hard to be a good all-round cricketer. Then he became a great all-round cricketer. But, you know, if he was off cricket for 15 days and he— when he was having nets after 15 days, it appeared as if he was a number 11 batsman. He would not time anything. He had a very awkward grip, which was— and he had a 3-pound, 5-ounce bat. It was so heavy. But somehow, you know, whenever there was a situation, he would get in there and get things sorted out. You know, he'll be battered, bruised. One thing he had mentioned very clearly, that he'll only play those players who are brave-hearted, who have got ticker. Fronting up to the task by the tail-enders was as important as someone opening the innings because it sent a message to the opposition that, you know, from 1 to 11, we're not scared of you. So little things made us a great team in the end. And, and that series against the West Indies in '88, which I believe, and according to a website also, probably the best 3 Test match series ever played. And I say it quite frankly, had West Indies not cheated in the last Test match, we would have beaten them because it ended up to be a 1-1 draw game. And in those days, West Indies were like untouchables. I mean, that Marshall and They had, you know, Ambrose and all those. And you could bowl 6 bouncers in an over during that period. But it was because of Imran, because he had set such high goals for his side and for himself that he said, look, we want to become the best. And to become the best, we've got to beat the best team. I mean, he's just a crazy individual that way. Just, I mean, very educated from cricket point of view and generally a great leader.

You talked about work ethic there, but I want to hear about him as a bowler because he was the one who, who really kind of got you all buying into reverse swing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in those days, I mean, you know, when we came over, we felt that, you know, scratching the ball is a normal thing because we— to survive back home in Pakistan, you had to do it. And when Imran was doing it, we felt it was kosher because here was this leader who was like, I mean, you know, a proper cricketer. And, um, but then obviously, you know, he mentioned it himself, uh, that, you know, he'd use bottle tops and all that kind of stuff. But he was such an asset when the ball was reversing. It's just unstoppable. Look at his performance in the '87 World Cup in Pakistan. He picked up 5 wickets every second match, uh, and we had great advantage because, you know, England or Australia would be 5 down for 230 in, in the 40th over and bowled out for 250.

Well, Pakistan kept doing that, but am I right in thinking that was Safraz Nawaz? Yeah, he started playing in England for Northampton, and I think he was the guy who kind of became the— he wasn't that quick, Safraz, although he liked to think he was very quick. But he was the guy who kind of recognized the potential of this reverse swing, and he was the kind of tutor That's right. That passed it down the line, and he played for Pakistan quite a lot, didn't he? And I played against him when we were befuddled. He'd be 50 overs old. You think, well, we've cracked the new ball here. And then all of a sudden, Safraz would come on, just darting back in.

And what's going on?

I think he picked up nine wickets against Australia in one of the test matches.

And Imran obviously, yeah, learnt from that, and then he became a tutor as well.

That's right.

Yeah, that's true.

Yeah, I mean, just iconic, isn't it? I remember as a kid, actually, the first cricket book I was ever gifted was called Imran Khan's Cricket Skills. And you kind of get like, you know, you get players who endorse books and things like that. And someone will come up to you and say, yeah, don't worry, I'll write this and just put your name on it. We'll take some photos. But you could tell he'd had a huge part in this because every single page had a photograph of Imran Khan posing in the pose that he's doing. And like, so for example, he shows a pull shot. And he's in all 3 positions that he wants to show— your starting point, your execution point, your follow-through. And I remember just studying it closely. Wow, this guy. And I just— yeah, I mean, you could put a bow on it and just say, like, the icon, the sort of the style of the man, you know. Obviously he was very popular in England as well, and he's gone on to do different things and become— remain immensely popular. And, you know, he's just an icon.

You mean socially?

Socially, obviously. Well, you know, like, just here in England, I mean, It was before my time, really. But my older siblings describe how intensely popular he was, and like he was a sex symbol here in England as well. You know, he'd go out to parties; people, the paparazzi following him everywhere he goes. People really, really, really adored him.

I mean, he never drank, but I think he liked to party. And one of the reasons he left Worcester to go to Sussex is that Brighton, bit nearer London as well. Well, I think that was quite an attraction.

I remember him wearing a t-shirt in New Zealand. So this is. Going way back in 1985, somebody gave him a t-shirt and obviously he wore it everywhere. Nightlife in New Zealand—it just had a big black round thing on the t-shirt.

Can I ask you, Ramiz? Because I heard this right, and you probably know this because I've heard this. I don't know if this is true. He would go to there's a nightclub in London called Annabelle's, which is very popular, and he'd like to go there, and his order—the Imran Khan—was a glass of milk. So he turned up every time and he'd ask for an Imran Khan and it was a glass of milk. Is this true?

I'm not sure about Anibal, but we used to get in Australia, for example. So, you know, the Australian dugout would have 15 jars of beer. We'll have 15 jars of milk. Nice. And so, I mean, and skimmed. We were all, we were all scared that, you know, nobody, even Javed, who—

Even Javed was scared.

Yeah, he was scared, actually.

A player that loves to party, that they're making the top 10. Is that what you're saying?

He loved to party, but he didn't drink.

He said it stays in your system, so you're not able to perform for the next 2 days.

It was again personality to go with his skill set as well. This is the thing, like, I mean, there were so many great players and great people who could execute great skills, but they had some personality to go with it, a look and everything. It's a whole package with Imran.

Yeah.

We are going to move on. Who's the second on that list?

It's a difficult call actually, because you see, so I played in an era where everyone was a hero and a classic. Wasim Waqar, Syed Anwar. Zaheer Abbas was before my time, but you know, so I've got to look at Syed Anwar, for example, or Wasim and Waqar. I'd probably put one of them, either Waqar or Wasim, at number 2.

Hanif Mohammad would have to be considered. And then there are all those brothers. I mean, Mushtaq. Yeah, you know what Mushtaq I think is responsible for? And spinners all around the world all hate him for it. He was the first guy back in the '60s, '70s Who started playing that reverse sweep, which is tormenting fingerspinners ever since. And Mushtaq himself was a lovely wrist spinner. So Mushtaq was one of the— he played about 16, he's 16. So he is— it's a long time ago, but Mushtaq was a really serious—

he's a good captain as well. Was he?

Did you play? Do you?

No, but, uh, but you see, so Pakistan won in Australia when he was the captain, when Imran picked up 10 wickets, and that was the, the beginning of Imran Khan era, actually. So he was then.

I feel my duty is apparently because of my— I can remember these guys.

We'll come back to spin. Okay. Thank you for your contributions there, Vic. I don't think anyone would disagree with the fact that we're now going to talk about Wasim and Waqar. Yeah. Wasim Akram, 104 Test matches, 414 Test wickets, an average of 23. He also picked up 3 centuries in there as well. Um, across a time period of 1985 to 2002. Also played over 300 One Day Internationals, over 500 One Day wickets, average of 23 there as well. Uh, and it was about Wasim and Waqar together in, in the early '90s at their peak. 373 wickets for Waqar Younis, 87 Test matches, 416 wickets in One day cricket, an average of 23. So you know they were phenomenal as a pair, but individually they both make that top ten list. Would you say?

Yes, no doubt about it. I mean, for me it's easy. Like Wasim Akram, maybe there's a slight there's a recency bias. I was going to say it's been 20 years since he played, but as recent as that could be, I think Wasim Akram is like is you know I mean Imran's on a different level, but Wasim Akram is also iconic. And again, he's somebody who's so popular with the the current generation of Pakistan cricket fans as well because he did have that incredible skill and incredible personality. I remember watching him during his career, and the thing that people used to say about him is this man can take a wicket at will. So he can run in at any given point, decide that this is going to be a wicket ball, and take it. And he knew exactly what his plan was, exactly how to execute it. I mean, in his early days he had obviously the long run-up, but towards the end, my sort of most vivid memories are of 1999, that World Cup that happened here in England, and watching him sort of run in off about 15 paces. at max and, uh, and just make the ball do all sorts of absurd things. And yeah, just incredibly talented. Also, um, one of my favorite Test innings I've ever seen was his 253 not out, um, batting at number 9, which I think is still the highest score by a number 9 batter, I think. Yeah, and it's also— it's all— it also has the record for the most sixes in a Test innings, uh, tied with Yashasvi Jaiswal. I could be wrong. I'm sure Andy Saltzman will point that out for me, but Yeah, he's just— he could bat, he could bowl, but he was so iconic and he had this incredible control over that skill. And also a very underrated captain. I think his captaincy, people sort of, okay, you know, he didn't win a World Cup. He got them to the World Cup final in 1999 and he couldn't get over the line in that final. But he was a good captain. He's the kind of captain who had control over his dressing room. And obviously, you know, him and Waqar sort of had a back and forth, and we can talk about Waqar and his skill as well. But just in terms of— iconic bowlers, I think you could have— you could talk about it, and it's— he's got a pretty strong case for maybe being the greatest left-arm bowler of all time.

Yeah, well, he gets in my, um, list. I mean, he, he was plucked out by Imran. He barely played a first-class game. That was sort of something wonderful that Pakistan tended to do sometimes. He just saw him in the nets, thought, this man's got to play. Yeah, chucked into the Test team.

Sometimes I wish they still did that.

Yeah. Um, and I, I did play— I mean, I faced Wasim When he played for Lancashire, and he skipped. He looked like he was so close when he let it go because he he was very light on his feet, a bit like Malcolm Marshall. He's kind of run through the crease, and as a consequence of that, it felt like he was bowling from 18 yards.

In the nets, he did bowl it. He did bowl from 18 yards, and then appeal useless appeals to put us down.

Yeah, yeah. So both the seamers were guys. Yeah, yeah. I mean. The way he swung the ball. I mean, that '92 World Cup, he should manage to show how he could do that with some fantastic deliveries. But, uh, a fantastic talent. Yeah.

How does he rate in terms of bowlers you've ever seen?

So my all-time favorite will be Malcolm Marshall. Um, I played with him in the nets, um, in domestic cricket as well, but he was a magician. I mean, he could reverse it. He had You know, strong presence, uh, and he would— the '92 World Cup, 2 deliveries make him a legend, as simple as that. Uh, but Waqar Younis, on the other hand, was sheer brutal pace. So he just picked up 100 wickets here playing for Surrey, and then we played him in a, in a one-day tournament back home. And I've never been afraid of getting hit here because I told him that I was seriously scared that I'll miss the ball because he was lightning fast compared I mean, Akram, even though he was pacey, in the nets he would appear like a medium pacer compared to Waqar. Waqar was really brutal and quick, a bit like Joe Fra Archer, you know, from nowhere.

But oddly enough, when you— I mean, I didn't play Swakar, fortunately, and I've got toenails to prove it. But actually, when Waqar was playing for Pakistan, contrary to everything that happens now, you were probably better off opening the batting than coming in. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, because he would try and bowl away swingers to the opening batsman because the ball wasn't ready away from the Yeah, uh, and you know, you have more opportunities. It was easier to face Waqar with the new ball than when— I mean, there's some amazing scorecards when England played against them, whereas England are sort of 300 for 3 and 342 all out.

South Africa, I remember a game we were playing in South Africa, and this is '93, '94 maybe, um, 220 to get, 190 for 1, and 215 bowled out. Yeah, it's just incredible piece of reverse swing bowling. And, you know, and here, '92 series, um, you know, from the top of the run-up he'd say, yorker and bold, to the likes of David Garr and Ian Botham. And I was at short leg, I could hear it.

Yeah.

I mean, he's so, A, full of himself, B, because he knew that he could pull it off and he knew they had no answer at 92 miles an hour, that ball reversing. And so it was, you know, a tour-crushing experience, and, you know, and we loved it.

And one of the things that was quite striking about watching him— I mean, there were many things that were striking about watching him, but he had a hole in his shoe, which a lot of bowlers do nowadays, but at the time it was very unusual because those shoes were really expensive. You know, as a young kid, you get your first pair of cricket shoes and you're going to take them to the club, and, you know, I'm sure there were so many parents, uh, that were so angry with Waqar Younis, like, why are you cutting open a hole in your shoe? Because all these kids, I just bought them an £80 pair of trainers. And they're cutting holes in their shoes to look like Waqar.

Yeah, I think I remember this. There you go. One specialist, one specialist shoemaker that made a lot of shoes. I mean, it was leather, it's soft. I don't know, I mean, I can't remember the name.

Whiting. Yeah, Northampton. Yeah, that's right. He was the cobbler of cricketers in those days.

Really good, it was.

Yeah, that's a career. I like that. Yeah, it's, it's really, it was really extraordinary. What I really enjoyed about Waqar, obviously had that brutal pace. He was unbelievably quick and You know, like it was, you know, as, as, um, Ramiz is saying, it felt like he was a lot quicker than Wasim, even though Wasim was bowling quite quickly as well. And then what I really enjoyed about Waqar is he had a couple of injuries and setbacks. He missed that '92 World Cup.

He did.

So, you know, it must be one of his sort of great regrets. And I know having spoken to him that it is one of his great regrets that he wasn't part of that team. But over time, he picked up stress fracture after stress fracture, and he couldn't bowl as quick anymore. And so he completely reinvented himself and turned into what, uh, what Wick was saying, like with a new ball, a way-swing bowler. He actually tormented England as captain in the early 2000s as a completely different style of bowler. Now you have to kind of, you know, really respect that ability to reinvent yourself.

Yeah, I mean, with Malcolm Marshall, you know, Malcolm Marshall was what, about 5'10, 5'10 and a half? And you didn't expect that ball to bounce from the length from that short a height.

Yeah, yeah.

Waqar Younis was pretty similar. He wasn't very tall.

His arm was quite low.

Yeah, low. And so his bouncer was lethal because he would be at you. He wasn't wasting. You know, tall bowlers would at times bounce more, which was fine.

Andy?

Well, just to put a bit more sort of statistical context on both of those players, and I like looking at players in their absolute peak phases. Waqar Younis had a fairly quiet start to his Test career in just his first 4 or 5 games. Then from this, he played New Zealand in October 1990. Over his next 26 Tests, he took 170 wickets. That's over 6.5 a game at an average of 17, with 19 5-wicket hauls in 26 Tests. He was, you know, one of the great bowling forces in the history of Test cricket at that time. Remained effective but not quite at that level after those injuries that Arteef mentioned. And Wasim Akram, through the 1990s, averaged 21 with the ball in Test cricket, and he had a very good record sort of everywhere in the world. He only played 2 Tests in South Africa, didn't do it that much in those games. In every other country he played in, he had a good record. 36 wickets in Australia at, uh, at 24, for example, which is not always a place that Pakistan has thrived. So, um, yeah, 2 of the great bowlers, unquestionably.

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Shoaib Akhtar, where, where does he come in here? 46 Test matches, 178 wickets at 25. Is he in the mix?

I mean, yes, um, because he was Very, very fast, uh, unusual bowling action, um, controversial, but you know, controversy doesn't hurt you a lot. I mean, he had that image and flair, and people watched him because, you see, fast bowling is about showing presence at the crease. And so, I mean, to me still, I think the most wonderful thing is for a batsman getting bowled in that middle stump. Going for a toss, somebody running in from 30 yards. But obviously, you know, maybe not in the same category as if you're picking a team.

He doesn't get in ahead of Imran, Wazir Khan, and Waqar.

Well, I tell you what, he's an X factor player, no doubt about it. Like if I was looking at the current Pakistan Test team in 2026, I think more than a Wasim or Waqar, they need a Shoaib Akhtar. They need that X factor player that. player that teams fear. A bowler that can bowl at 100 miles an hour and hurt you and runs in looking like a, like a Bollywood villain with his hair flopping and his facial expressions. And, you know, like every batter that's ever talked about facing him talks about how unbelievably terrifying that experience is. Like, that's what you want. You want a player that sort of inspires fear in the heart of the opposition. I don't think there's ever been a cricketer from Pakistan that did that quite like Shoaib Akhtar. And obviously he had— he missed more Test matches than he played. And, you know, that's always— As you think about what could have been with Shoaib, but a bowler like that, he's always gonna— he's always gonna have a truncated career.

Shoaib Akhtar, 247 wickets in one-day cricket as well, average of 24, fastest recorded delivery of all time in 2003. Andy?

Uh, well, he had a relatively brief peak, but, uh, even so, in from 2000 to the end of the England series in 2005, he was 127 wickets, averaged 20.5, and 26 Test with 11 Fifers, but didn't play that volume of cricket. But there were moments, there were some incredible moments in his career. There were the— when he bowled in Kolkata in front of 90,000 people, bowled out Rahul Dravid and Sachin Tendulkar in successive balls, which is one of the great YouTube clips. I mean, just 2 completely unplayable balls at insane speed. He had a spell against Australia in a Test that was played in Colombo In October 2002 in the second innings, in which he bowled out Ricky Ponting and Mark Waugh and Adam Gilchrist and had Steve Waugh and Shane Warne LBW in the space of 15 balls. 5 unassisted wickets, 4 all-time great, great, great batters, plus Shane Warne, who was a decent, decent lower-order player. That was one of the great sort of— if you have the sort of greatest 15-ball spells in Test history, that's got to be it. That's got to be up there.

Well, there's individual balls that he's bowled that are like— like his ball to Steven Fleming in the 1999 World Cup is probably my favorite ball of all time. Like, it was just sheer pace and full and violent intent. And, you know, there's nothing— you feel for the batter. There's absolutely nothing he could have done about that ball. Uh, I mean, I just— I love Shoaib Akhtar. He's one of my favorite. He felt like box office. That's an important element of this as well. Like, these are great players. Being technically gifted is great. Having personality is great. Having great leadership is great. But who do people really want to see? Do they pack the stadiums? Well, I'm not going to get go to the concession stand now. Sherb's about to start. Actually, he's got a very long run-up. You could probably go grab yourself some food by the time he gets to the crease.

I think it's a legacy that these guys created. I remember growing up in club cricket and playing boys cricket, and I played with a lot of British Pakistani boys, and they all just wanted to be fast bowlers. That was all they wanted to be. It was less about the batting; it was about bowling as fast as they possibly could. Now. We're going to leave Shoaib Akhtar there. He's in and around the mix. Wasim and Waqar are definitely in that top 10. We're going to come back to you, Vic. Hanif Mohammad, you mentioned him. We're going to move to the batters now.

I mean, I am actually too young to do— I mean, I do remember watching him on the telly as a kid, but I mean, he was a seminal person, you know, 499, and in a period where Pakistan weren't so strong, and it must have felt that he Had immense pressure because he had to get all the runs, and he got stacks of runs, and he had limitless concentration, I think, and could bat for hours and did many, many times. It's always in black and white.

It's always difficult to compare across generations.

The thing about Hanif Muhammad is the headline about him is that he played maybe the greatest Test innings by a Pakistani batter ever, 337 against the West Indies in 1958. It's one of those innings that like sort of your older relatives tell you about. And then you sort of go back and it's hard to find footage of it to this day. But what you can do is read loads of books that have been written about it. And, you know, I know there's a book by Abdul Hafeez Gardar, who was Pakistan's first ever captain, which I read. And he references that innings extensively. 970 minutes out in the middle. That's, you know, so 16 hours, 10 minutes across 3 days. He's just batting and batting and batting and grinding the opposition. Uh, into the ground. Um, I think when he, when he finished, at the time that was the 2nd highest individual score ever made in Test cricket. Len Hutton's 364 was higher, and, uh, this is before Seaguarfield Sobers got to 365. But just in terms of an iconic record, obviously he's a great batter, and, you know, we know, you know, you can, you hear all the accolades from, from people who saw him. But, uh, to score an innings like that, I mean, you couldn't even imagine it in the modern era. A triple hundred in a Test match across 3 days. I don't think that'll ever happen again.

Yeah, he averaged just under 44 in his 55 Tests, 12 centuries, scored 100 in his only Test in Australia, made a century in England, and that triple century in the West Indies. So in every country he played in, he scored at least 100. Of his 12 hundreds, 11 were made in draws and just 1 in a victory. Didn't have a great record in the games Pakistan won. I might have to chuck in another name just in terms of influence. on the evolution of Pakistan cricket. And it's another bowler— interesting to see what, what Rami says about him. Fazl Mahmood, who played in those early, uh, years with Hanif Mohammad for Pakistan, uh, fantastic bowler, 134 wickets in his, uh, in his, in his Test career. But his influence on Pakistan's early Test cricket is extraordinary. He took 12 wickets in Pakistan's first ever Test win. That was against India in their first series, 12 for 94. He came to England in 1954, took 12 for 99 at the Oval. Pakistan's first win against England and their first win against Australia, the first Test those 2 teams played. He took 13 for 114. And in Pakistan's first 3 wins against West Indies, he had match hauls of 8, 7, and 12. So in, in all, he played in 7 wins for Pakistan and took 65 wickets, averaged 10.

Yeah, he was an— he was an icon for sure. Um, tallish fellow, long fingers, uh, and he would cut the ball. So in those days, um, I think matting was being used in Pakistan. So it's a, uh, your, your typical matting fast bowler, not quick, medium pacer, accurate, and he would cut the ball. And obviously like Hanif Mohammad, um, one of the icons, you know, who set the stage for us.

Again, I'll go back to that book by Abdul Hafiz Gardar. So Gardar was— he was— he played 3 Test matches for India at the time of partition, and then he became the first Pakistan captain. And his sort of first task was accumulating cricketers that he thought would be good for Pakistan. Now, at the time, Fazl Mahmood and his family, they were unsure of where they were going to end up, whether he wanted to play cricket at all. And Abdul Hafeez Gardar organized for him to get a job as a policeman in what would then be Pakistan, which was considered a very good job, in return for playing cricket for him. So Hafeez Gardar got him to play cricket for Pakistan, helped him get to that point. And in 1955, Fazl Mahmood became the first ever Pakistani to be included in Wisden's top 5 cricketers of the year. So that, I mean, I don't know how highly regarded it is these days, but in those days that was an unbelievable honor to be one of the top 5 cricketers of, uh, of Wisden. And there was always sort of a, in those days, a colonial bias to those lists. For a Pakistani to break into it in 1955, that's iconic in and of its own.

Yeah, and that 1954 Oval Test in which he bowled Pakistan to, uh, to victory, he got out Len Hutton Dennis Compton and Peter May in both innings of the game. And if we're doing England's top 10, they'd all be in the conversation for that. And I found a CrickInfo article about, about Fazal Mahmood, and he says that over 2 innings in that game bowling to Len Hutton, Fazal reckoned he'd bowled 27 different types of deliveries. He's like Shane Warne. So that's the kind of craft he had. He was— he wasn't quick, was he? He was sort of medium pacer and a lot of Accurate length bowler.

And it would have been a stunning victory. I mean, out of the blue, because England were a very strong side and no one anticipated that coming.

Some, some more names in there. We're moving to the batters. And Ramiz, the other day you said Saeed Anwar.

Hmm, what a player. Astonishing talent, Isha. Um, brilliant to watch. I opened with him, uh, and he was, uh, just about 20 yards ahead of where we were when he was— when he started to play, because he'd, uh, he'd be so good against spin. In those days, you know, openers weren't supposed to be that great against spin, but he was, he was so good. And then, you know, some of the innings that he played— I mean, I was the captain when he got his 194 against India, and which stood as the highest score for a very long time in, in 50-overs cricket.

13 years.

13 years. He absolutely massacred all the Indian bowlers. And then, you know, his, his 100 against India in, uh, in, in Kolkata, I think it was, which turned out to be match-winning innings again. Um, didn't play the '92 World Cup, but, uh, in '99 World Cup, um, elsewhere, I think in 2003 World Cup in South Africa. I mean, his— in Australia, really was a top quality player.

He didn't score as many runs as others across his career, 13-year career, but you're saying that he would be your first person on that list in terms of batting?

Yeah, so, so I mean, how do you rate a player? It's an interesting question. So do you go by the stats, or do you go by the respect that he earns in the dugout, in the dressing room? You know, it— so, so some— for example, I'm, I'm talking off the cuff about a keeper batsman that we had, Saleem Yousaf. Now, Saleem Yousaf would never be recognized as a great wicketkeeper batsman. But he had so much of respect in the dressing room because on that 1988 tour against the West Indies, he played with a broken jaw and he was hitting Malcolm Marshall for sixes through mid-wicket after he'd absolutely taken care of him. So, so he earned a lot of respect. Uh, and, and so I, I think Saeed Anwar would be one of them who earned a lot of respect in the dressing room whenever he went out to bat. We felt great about this. So he's going to be— he'd be hammering the opposition. They'd be a bit scared of him. And he had this natural flair and talent, you know, smooth through the offside. And in those days, you know, he would hit sixes when probably Sri Lankans had started it through Sanath Jayasuriya and Kalu Witharana.

Yeah.

And we had Saeed Anwar. And so he had a massive impact on the game.

Yeah, he really was phenomenal. Um, the flair that he batted with, and just, you know, it's always considered a great compliment to any left-hander when they say, oh, he looks elegant like a Saeed Anwar. Like, I have a lot of memories of watching him bat, um, alongside Ramiz and, uh, Aamir Sohail. So they sort of alternated as his batting partner during different parts of their careers. And, uh, you know, so with Sohail, he was quite volatile and aggressive, whereas Saeed was always very elegant.

Mm-hmm.

And he was more reli— he was considered more reliable, and he still had that sort of flourish to his game that made him quite attractive to watch again at the top of the innings. Yeah, he was undoubtedly a great Pakistani player.

Yeah, averaged 45 in Test cricket, 11 Test centuries. In one-day cricket though, I often look when I'm looking through these periods at strike rate, and most batters are batting at a strike rate of about 70. He was at 80, uh, for his 247 one-day internationals under 5,000 runs.

Uh, also, he was, uh, again, thrived in all conditions. He's, uh, one of only 2 Pakistan players to have made centuries, uh, in England, Australia, South Africa, and, uh, and New Zealand. He'd made a pair on his Test debut in 1990.

I was playing that game actually.

And didn't play again for 3 and a half years, and then, you know, became one of Pakistan's, uh, great players. And also, and, you know, I know it's not sort of part of the way you judge players in terms of how great they are, but artistic impression. If we count that, he's got to be right at the top of this. We see a lot of players hit the ball these days, particularly in short-form cricket, as if they hate the concept of spheres and hate leather. And Saeed Anwar just caressed it as if he was— I think the ball would have been pleased to be hit for a 4.

The ball enjoyed it.

So you can have that closer to the office.

But the other quote in his favor is that he opened the batting in an era where there were some nasty bowlers to have to face opening the batting.

Purely because of time, I'm just going to throw in some names here and then I'm going to get you to discuss. Javed Miandad, Younis Khan, Mohammad Yousaf, Inzamam-ul-Haq.

That's a great list.

Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Well, I mean, Younis Khan is— he's got one of my favorite records. which is he scored a Test century against every country, I think in more countries than anybody else also. You'll be able to check this. So because obviously he played in the UAE as well, so that was during that phase when Pakistan played. So he scored Test hundreds in every country including India and the UAE and Pakistan and England and Australia, anywhere that a Test match could possibly occur, he has a Test hundred. And obviously the only Pakistani batter to cross 10,000 runs in Test cricket, and obviously, uh, one of only 2 Pakistani players to win a World Cup as captain. He won that 2009 T20 World Cup. I'm sure you remember that day well, Isha. I do, because I watched, I watched 2 of my favorite players pick up a World Cup that day.

I was 12 that day.

You still got to pick up the trophy. You did. I remember Upper Compton right there watching you guys. I mean, he's, he's, I think because of his sort of subsequent work as a coach and he's been quite outspoken and, you know, there was some sort of rivalries and things like that, maybe he doesn't get the flowers that he deserves, but he He's undoubtedly one of Pakistan's best ever batters and one of the great characters, Javed Miandad.

Well, he was— well, Ram will know better than I, but he was the ultimate sort of street fighter. Yeah, he was cheeky. Yeah, cheeky, but intimidated by no one. I still got in my mind that match in Australia when him and Dennis Lillee fell out, and you've got him with his bat over and Dennis Lillee is dead. I mean, they nearly came to Physical blows, but he was frightened of no one. To take on Dennis Lillee in Australia, you know, only a fool would do that really.

But I mean, yeah, right in there. So frankly, Vic, I mean, we've at times felt very embarrassed because cricket was played in a certain way during that era, and here was Javed, he was challenging the opposition, teasing them. I remember, I think it was here in '87 or '92, '87 in fact, Abdul Qader was playing And Beefy was struggling to pick him. And so I think it was Imran who said, go to silly mid-off. I was at short leg. And so Botham started to sweep. And, and as you would know, you know, when you're not picking a bowler, you start sweeping the ball.

Yeah, yeah.

So he tried it 2 times, and Javed was— he picked it up. And, and Javed said, the only shot you know is sweep. So sweep, sweep, sweep. Every time the ball was in the air, there was this sweep, sweep, sweep, sweep in the backdrop. And I was I mean, I was falling apart because you see they're so funny. And Beefy said, "I'm going to hit you with a bat." He says, "How can you hit me with a bat? The only shot you know is sweep." I mean, it's that kind of an irritating guy, actually.

But he was good. He was good.

He was good. Yeah, really good. 23 centuries in his Test career. 124 Test.

Because he was captain at Faisalabad when Mike Gatting had his little altercation. And it was a brilliant, you know, from from a Javed's point of view, that that whole incident was fantastic because England were controlling that game. Yes, yes, you're winning. And by one thing or another, the whole day got abandoned and Pakistan ended up drawing the match. And Javed, I'm sure, would have revelled in the fact that you know that little old that well I say little altercation at the close of play enabled him to come away with a draw and all was well and the series would be under.

Control. He always felt like a player's captain as well. Can I ask you, Robbie, because we, we watched an incident, uh, not too long ago, actually last week. We were talking about that '92 tour where Devon Malcolm was getting bounced by Aaqib Javed, and then the umpire calls a no ball, but he sort of really stood up for his— he walked over and he was like, I'm going to take control, don't you worry, Aaqib, I've got you.

So this is, this is, uh, Javed Miandad. We're playing a '92 game against New Zealand. It's a must-win game for us. Danny Morrison was bowling at around 150. It really was bowling fast. And we were 2 down for 10 when Javed walked in. Um, and in those days you couldn't bowl a bouncer in ODI cricket, right? So it was no ball. First 2 balls to Javed, he bowls those great bouncers, hit him one I think on the side of the helmet and then on the glove. And he comes, you know, end of the over, he says, um, you know, if he bowls a bouncer, you go for the hook shot and I'll take care of the rest. I said, what do you mean? So it happened like that. He bowled me a bouncer. I was ready for it because that's the only length he was bowling. And so, so Danny is now walking back to his run-up, and so is Javed with him. And he says, bowl him another one, he's going to hit you out of the ground.

So Danny gives me—

This is cheering you on.

So Danny gives me 2 lethal bouncers. I walk up to Javed, I said, what the hell is wrong with you? But is that kind of a character you want?

It's a bit like, yeah, so Tony Gregg kept signaling boundaries and the bloke in the other side said, don't do that.

Javami Indad, one of the great antagonizers.

But a top player, absolutely brilliant.

Andy? You talk about players' peaks, his peak basically lasted until the end of the 1980s from his debut. His first 100 Tests he averaged 57 and then tailed off just a little as he aged. But just in terms of moments as well, Rameez, one of the iconic moments in Pakistan's one-day history, that last ball 6 that he hit in—

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just incredible, that game, because we were losing it. I mean, it started at, I think, 9:30. We were at the receiving end from 9:35 to 5:05, 5 minutes to 5, and at 5 we won. It's just incredible, it was actually. So I mean, and that was the start of us then dominating India because we sort of won the next 20 ODIs and never looked back, just because of that psychological barrier that Javed broke. Actually, before that, we were struggling against India.

Yeah, if any listeners, if you ever find yourself in a conversation with an Indian cricket fan that you would like to end, just mention that ball that Javed Mirza sent off Chetan Sharma.

Chetan Sharma was the bowler actually, and Kapil bowled the 49th over and gave it to Chetan Sharma for the last one. He bowled a yorker, it was hit for a 6.

Yeah, India still talks about it now. Some pretty tough bowlers he had to face up against as well. Lillee and Thommo, the West Indies fast bowlers.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, Mohammad Yousuf, Inzamam-ul-Haq, if you had to pick between one of them?

Well, I played a lot of cricket with Inzi, so I'd pick Inzi. Inzi was like, uh, you know, relaxed, chilled, um, but great under pressure. Loads of talent. I mean, he wasn't hardworking. If only He'd worked hard. He'd be at par with some of the greats of the game. Um, you know, Mohammad Yousaf, an artist, obviously, you know, great record, uh, broke Viv Richards' record for most runs in a single season. Um, but I'd give it to Inzi. I mean, Inzi would always feature in my top list.

Yeah, I remember watching him in that World Cup semi-final in 1992, and he was young then. He was really just in the team. And it was a game that New Zealand were kind of winning again in semi-final at Auckland, I think. And yes, we didn't know much about Inzamam from afar then. He was a young pup, and it was a stunning innings there. And I— oh, there we go, 30 balls. I enjoyed him when he was captain too. You'd go over as a presser, you'd interview, you know, he'd sit day before the match, you go down to the ground, you've got a sort of, you know, what it's like. You've got to preview it and have a little press conference. Everyone else would be bowling in the nets and having a bat. And most of the time he was sat in this wicker chair. And then, yeah, and then he would give an interview, which actually did have great English, so it didn't actually tell us.

But he had a wicked dry humor. It was hilarious. He was in slow motion. He would make fun of people.

Right. Yeah, well, we didn't quite see that bit, but He was, and also he was sort of a one-off because he, you know, by the end he was not the most gliding athlete, but he could bat beautifully.

He was brilliant. He became a cult figure almost, didn't he?

Yeah, yeah. In Zaman-ul-Haq. So Mohammad Yousaf in there as well. Andy, with the numbers?

Well, just a couple of other players to consider from the batting side. Zaheer Abbas, if you look at his peak again, In the early '80s, averaged almost 75 over a 22-test sequence. And if you consider one-day stats and talked about, you know, strike rates based on the era that players were playing in, Zaheer Abbas averaged 47 in one-day cricket with a strike rate of almost 85, which was off the scale in those days. I mean, for context, say someone like Gordon Greenwich, who's viewed as one of the great attacking players, I think his one-day strike rate was around about 65. So Zaheer was second only to Viv Richards, whose stats were even more incredible in one-day cricket, certainly of that, that era of one-day players. And also, yeah, fantastic Test player, made those 2 double hundreds in England that we were talking about yesterday.

So yeah, I mean, I played against him. You didn't want to bowl spin to Zaheer. He just penetrated the field. I mean, the other one that springs to mind, he probably doesn't get in the list, but from my era, I was just played against a few times who was just beautiful to watch and quite a character, I think, was Margie Carlin. Oh, he was. Who was a beautiful, beautiful silky player. Quite a haughty sort of character, I think. But, you know, sort of lovely deep voice who had a presence about him. But he could bat too. Or usually in very yellow pads. Yes, that's right.

Yeah. And in a cap. Yeah.

Does Barbara's arm make the list now?

No, it's, it's— and I hate to say that. I'd love to say that he would make the list, and we got very excited about him when he won that, um, you know, the Player of the Year, the ICC Player of the Year, the Sir Garfield Sobers Award a couple of years ago. In fact, there was a sequence where Pakistan won back to back with Babar and Shaheen, and, uh, it was a very good times. But I feel like at the moment, I don't think he's, uh, he's making that list. There's so many great players who already might not make that list, and, um, I think I'd like to think by the end of his career, Ishaq, we might be able to put him in that list, but right now, certainly not.

I mean, I like Babar Azam. I, I think his, um, overall record is impressive. I mean, his one-day record is decent. Um, he also plays T20 cricket, so I mean, he should feature there, I, I think. Yeah, I mean, he's got a road to travel, but it's just that you can't ignore him. Also, he's a stylist. Andy was talking about the aesthetics of the game. I mean, his cover drive is probably at par with any, uh, in the circuit. And Manan Song is lovely player to watch.

Uh, just one more name— Mizbah-ul-Haq. Doesn't score so highly on the aesthetic, the aesthetic grounds, but in, again, in terms of his impact on Pakistan, uh, cricket, he still averaged, I think, 46 in Test cricket, over 50 in the games that he captained them. But the influence he had as captain, taking over After the sort of low ebb of the spot fixing here in 2010, led Pakistan from sort of way down in the, in the Test rankings up to, up, up to number 1, had some fantastic wins, and, and also played one of the fastest hundreds in Test history.

Against Australia, I think it was.

And he, I think he had— he equaled the record for the fastest 50 as well. I remember watching that. And he, he, as you say, you can't state this enough, he picked up Pakistan from one of the lowest ebbs. There was a a Test match during that series where Shahid Afridi briefly captained, and then he himself retired from Pakistan cricket. So there were absolute turmoil happening. Misbah takes over, he comes in, he has this gravitas, he picks up the team, um, all the way to world number 1, as you say. And statistically, he's Pakistan's best ever captain as well. He's won 26 Test matches as captain out of his 56, which is even more than Imran Khan did. And, you know, I know Imran's got a different kind of stature because of all of his achievements, but Misbah, I think, On the basis of being, you know, the best-performing Test captain, the iconic moments, the press-ups here at Lord's in 2016.

And he scored a century as well.

He did, he scored a century as well. He just, he just feels like somebody who has an enormous gravitas and, and just that record that he's got as well. Yeah, I think, I think you could certainly make a case for him.

Shahid Afridi, one of the great characters in Pakistan cricket as well. Your domain, Vik.

Well, I've been waiting for for the— I mean, you've got to have Abdul Qadir.

Yeah.

I mean, I couldn't pick him, and I had the opportunity to pick him a few times, and I found it practically impossible. But he was a wondrous, aggressive—

Yeah.

And he was a forerunner. He brought leg spin back into— wrist spin back into the game. And kind of Warn, I think, fed off Abdul. And he was probably barking mad in some ways, but he was a At you, fizzing that ball down and enjoying himself immensely. I mean, you would have played with that. Yeah. And he was just a wonder to watch. Yeah. And that, you know, that horrendous feeling that I had that, oh God, so googly. I didn't know that. I didn't pick it.

So, I mean, Imran introduced leg spin to white ball cricket, actually. So we used to play two-leggies. Kader and Mushi. So we were the Mushtaq Ahmeds. Yeah, yeah. Well, he— so I mean, he was another who was really clever. Yeah. Um, but Abdul Kader was iconic. Uh, he was the first, and Imran liked aggressive spinners. Yeah. Um, and he would straight away say, get a short leg in, get a silly mid-off in, get that mid-off up. And Imran loved it. Yeah. Uh, and, and, and the idea was right because Imran felt to win ODIs or white ball games, you've got to pick wickets. And that's why he got Abdul Qadir playing a lot of— Javed Miandad never liked Abdul Qadir, uh, because he felt that leg spinners are difficult to handle and they give away so many runs. Yeah, yeah. But Imran, on the other hand, was different in, in captaincy style. So we actually played with 2 leggies.

I mean, I think— I haven't studied it, but I think I mean, he was a fantastic Test bowler as well, but like a lot of the bowlers, Australia was a problem. I mean, even Murali had a pretty modest record, and I think Abdul— the Australians somehow, maybe they— I don't know, the wickets or the fact they go after the wrist spinner. So I suppose the only flaw in his career was that he never really dominated.

Yes.

He dominated in England, he dominated in Pakistan. But he was just a wondrous sight too. He was actually. Did he?

Didn't he stick his tongue out as well when he bowled? Just just stick it out as he bowled.

Well, I I mean I can't remember. I had enough trouble trying to spot which way the ball was spinning. I didn't bother with his tongue.

Hugely respected in Australia though, Abdul Kadir.

And he was pretty accurate as well. Oh yeah. For a leggy, it's very accurate.

If we're looking at numbers, Andy, Mushtaq Ahmed. Abdul Qadir, throw Saklay Mushtaq in there as well. Not a leggy, but mystery.

Well, Abdul, 236 wickets at 32 in his 67 Tests. Much more effective at home, averaged 26 in Pakistan, 47 away from Pakistan. Yasir Shah, another sort of more recent leg spinner, maybe didn't have quite that magic, but had fantastic wickets per match. I think it was the He's still the quickest to 200 test wickets in terms of matches played. Saklin Mushtaq over 200 wickets average average 29. Maybe didn't play as much test cricket as he might have.

And another innovator, of course.

The Dusra. The Dusra. And Mushtaq Ahmed, who sort of had a slightly up and down career, almost the same average as Abdul Kader, just under 33, 185 wickets in his in his 52 tests.

Saklin, I mean, just a word on him. He was iconic really for a while. He just really, in a team full of fast bowlers and stars, he made his own sort of personality stand out as well as a spinner. I believe he was the first Pakistani to take a hat-trick in a 50-over World Cup as well.

49 Test matches for him, 208 wickets at 29. Uh, Mushnak Ahmed, 52 Test matches, 185 at 32. Obviously both played a lot of One Day Internationals as well. Anyone else that we should be discussing before we finalize the 10?

Shai Afridi gets day in court. I'll tell you why, because I, I think in the list we've leaned heavily on Test cricket, and rightfully so. It's, you know, that's the, the format, but— and we're here at a Test match, but in Pakistan you can't understate the importance of white ball cricket and the iconography of it as well. Remember, the biggest, most iconic moment is Imran Khan lifting a white ball World Cup in '92, and Shai Afridi's record in white ball cricket is absolutely phenomenal, and so I think deserves More than a mention.

Boom boom. Yeah, he loved watching him bat, that's for sure. Didn't he score a century with Sachin Tendulkar's bat?

He did once score a century with Sachin Tendulkar's bat. He also held the record for the fastest, uh, One Day International century as a, as a 16-year-old. So he was 16 years old, made his debut for Pakistan as a leg spinner, uh, like a, a replacement for Mushtaq Ahmed, or like a substitute for Mushtaq Ahmed. Got a game as a pinch hitter, scores a 37-ball hundred. In 1996, you know who was the next man in after he got out?

Was it yourself? Yep. And he just massacred the opposition with a 37 ball. And you've still got loads of time to bat.

Yeah, I said what? Don't worry. What should I do? I know the feeling. Everyone would have gone to the bar.

What shot did you play first ball, just out of interest?

I can't remember. I mean, it was just— I mean, what transpired before? I was just I mean, it's just phenomenal hitting. It was. There were massive sixes.

Well, I reckon his ODI white ball record is pretty impressive as well, and he was player of the series in that World Cup they won in 2009. But who would keep? Who is the best keeper?

I was gonna say. I don't know. If you're gonna choose a keeper, who would it be?

I don't know really. It's not.

There's no. There's big. Moine Rashid Latif.

Yeah, Rashid Latif was probably a bit like Jeffrey Dujon. So he's. You know, loose and very athletic, good against spin. Wasim Bari could you get? Bari was yeah. Bari was very very safe. Then obviously Moin Khan was an all-round keeper, batsman and and keeper was bit like Rodney Marsh. Who else?

I mean, we had a sequence of Akmal before we yeah.

Kamran Akmal had a had a good time of it, but not a I mean better as a batsman than a keeper.

We've got to finalize the 10. This is going to be very difficult to do. From, from the conversation, this is what I've got down, right? Hanif Mohammed, Saeed Anwar, Javed Miandad. I think one of Younis Khan or Mohammad Yousaf has to go. Inzamam-ul-Haq, Imran Khan, Wasim Akram, Abdul Qadir. Yeah, you're choosing Vic as the, the best Spinner Abdul Qadir.

Yeah, I think, but also as a sort of trailblazer as well.

Okay, Waqar Younis. That's 10. Is that 10?

Um, but you got to choose one of Yusuf and Khan or Inzamam. No, no, sorry, Inzi is there. Inzi is there. So wait, hold on.

So one of— no, sorry, you can keep both. You can keep both. Okay, cool. So you're not, you're not squeezing a Babar Azam and you're not squeezing in Zaheer Abbas.

Zaheer Abbas. Oh, I'd squeeze Fazal.

Mahmood, and just for the impact he had on establishing Pakistan ahead of Mohammad Yusuf.

It's an impossible task, Isha, because there's so many, there's so many players. And, and, uh, well, they see how I would squeeze Abdul Hafiz Khansar in there as well, obviously, because the first ever captain. Without him, there's nothing going forward, is there? So you could, you can make a case for them. Sarfaraz Nawaz, without him, there's no reverse swing. But there's a lot of without him this doesn't happen kind of situation. But if you're going on pure stats, I think, I think, I think Zaheer makes the, makes the cut, don't you think?

From personal experience, I, I think I least liked bowling Zaheer Abbas than any of those lot, actually. I mean, I never thought I'd ever get him out, and I don't think I ever did. And that's mostly in little sort of inconsequential, in some ways, local derbies when Somerset played Gloucester.

I mean, are you gonna have to take a vote on this issue?

Who we're taking? No, no, no, it's all right.

Okay, we're not going to fight.

We're not. No, I think Rami should have a passing vote. There'll be people at home that won't talk to him for a month or two. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live. So much sport today and all the goals as they go in up and down the league. This is 5 Live Sports.

It's all eyes on the lights and foot to the floor.

It's not to stop her. Everyone standing around the 18th green. Overhead kick, that is sensational. He says To the center, and that'll do it! Oh, a right hand, and the former champion is down! It's extraordinary stuff.

They've put on a show for us tonight.

And he gets on his knees and kisses the turf.

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