View from the Boundary: Jon Sopel

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You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Time for our View from the Boundary. Now, the guest today, I've been looking forward to this.

Uh, I, I first—

well, my only encounter with him actually was, I think, sharing an ice cream or something like that, um, at Wells. And I said, I'm sure I know who that is. Well, he's a journalist, presenter, podcaster who's held some of the most prestigious positions in broadcasting. He's spoken with prime ministers, presidents, and world leaders. He's been the BBC's Paris correspondent, uh, during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. He was the BBC's correspondent in Kuwait City. He's been the North America editor, chief political correspondent. He's locked horns with Donald Trump, secured a rare interview with the Emir of Dubai, Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum. He's quizzed the likes of Tony Blair, David Cameron, and since 2022, he's presented the podcast The News Agents with Emily Maitlis. That's given it away. John Sopel, lovely to see you.

Oh, it's a thrill to be here.

Well, it's great. So, you know, there we were, we were just on the streets of Wells-next-the-Sea. I'm sure that's John Sopelow.

And I thought, I'm sure that's Agnes.

Well, there we go. And here we are about a year later, which is, which is fantastic. I'm sorry, but I'm just sorry that you're not seeing any cricket at the moment.

Well, look, it's an English summer, isn't it? You know, that it's been sort of almost unreal, the, the fact that I suppose this is the first day we've had proper rain in probably 3 or 4 months, and it happens on, you know, when the Test match is due to be played. And so there we are. Yeah. Um, but You know, anyone who follows sport in this country, whether it—you know—if you follow tennis, there's always a fair chance it's going to be yes. Who kind of the covers are going to come on, and sure enough. Well, it's good to see that the groundsmen are out there. They're on—they're on the case all the time, just getting ready in the hope that it's.

And they get soaked, and then they get it all dry, and then it rains again. They've got to go and start all over again. They're remarkable people. I know these ground staff; they really are. So this is a ground that you're familiar with, isn't it? I mean, you know Lords.

Yeah, I do a bit. I mean, I—I grew up in North London. And so the 26 bus used to take me down from where I lived down here to Lords. And as a kid, I would go to county games and watch Middlesex play. And I'd sit there with my little book and I'd be marking the dots on the wickets.

One of those old-fashioned books with the little squares and the dots. Exactly. M for maiden.

Completely. All of that. W for a little wicket. And so, you know, cricket got into my bones. I mean, I was never a very good cricketer, it has to be said. But I loved coming to cricket and was lucky enough to come to a number of internationals here. And, you know, very— and some very memorable occasions as well. So Lord's Cricket Ground is as near as I've got to a home ground because, as I say, I used to live— you know, you come out of Lord's Cricket Ground, you're pretty much on the Finchley Road, carry on for about 3 or 4 miles, and that's where I grew up, sort of Finchley Central.

But how lucky to be able to come somewhere like this. I mean, for some people it's just once, once in a lifetime to come to this amazing place.

It is. And it's— and I feel incredibly privileged to have seen some really spectacular days Of cricket here and watched it, and the atmosphere is fantastic. I was here for earlier on in the summer for the test against New Zealand, which blink and you missed it.

Well, yes, I know. It was disappointing.

Yeah, I mean that was that was sort of slightly unreal as a test match. And I was here when Australia were playing and Johnny Bairstow. Were you here for that? Yeah, I was here for that, and I've never seen anything like it. And why it was so remarkable that day. Was the, the atmosphere suddenly felt less like a cricket match than a football match.

It was extraordinary, wasn't it?

The visceral anger.

Yeah.

And the booing and the jeering and the stuff that you think— I've, I've never seen this before at a cricket ground.

I hadn't seen it here.

Hadn't you?

Yeah, it was a Sunday from memory, wasn't it? And sometimes you do get a bit of a different atmosphere on a, on a Sunday than on other days of the week. It just feels like it's a bit more of an open sort of a crowd rather than— there's people who come, always go to a Saturday of a Lord's Test or always go to the second day of the Lord's Test. Sunday seems— always feels a bit looser to me, and therefore I think a Sunday crowd is more inclined, if you like, to get— well, to blow up like that. I mean, there's only a way of saying it.

But even in the posh seats, you know, even in the debenture stands, there was the— and it was kind of just, whoa! Where were you sitting?

You remember? I was in the Edridge stand, just kind of to the right of where we're sitting now. So right amongst it all.

Yeah. So, and you know, but just the sense of this is wrong and this is outrageous. And look, there's always that kind of tastiness. When it's England-Australia, just always is, you know. And the the sledging that takes place before England turn up in Australia. And my son Max lives in Sydney now. Oh, so so you know he he he he did the kind of full tour for the most recent. Oh dear! Actually, yeah, that didn't didn't go so well. No, it didn't. And I I was with him, I think four years ago when you know was that there was a dead rubber at the SCG and we got a draw. That's right. And we and we went to that and it was kind of like heroic. We've got a draw.

Yeah, felt like a win. Jimmy Anderson blocking it out.

Exactly, exactly. Endlessly playing a dead bat. And it was, it was, but that, you know, so I do think there's something joyous about the atmosphere of a cricket match that, you know, football is fast, furious, 90 minutes and you go home and cricket lasts all day. You've had a beer or two and, uh, and it's just that kind of memorable experience.

It was, I remember, I mean, I interviewed Pat Cummins obviously at the end of that day. Down there, and he didn't seem to understand, quite get it about why there was that reaction. You know, I know people still say, well, of course Johnny Bairstow should have been out. I felt actually that when Cummins had appealed and he went up, obviously the third umpire— there's a break, there's a gap while the third umpire looks at stuff. I just thought someone could have said to Pat Cummins, you know, all this stuff that we've taken for years, particularly since Sandpapergate and all of that, this is the moment that we could actually erase all of that Say to Johnny Bearstoke, mate, do that again and you're out. Yeah, you're gone. But they were winning the game quite comfortably, actually. Um, I just thought they missed the trick, actually. And that was why people were— and the incident in the long room, of course, that took place with the members. Um, it was, it was real anger. And I, and I, I can't think that Lord's ever, ever experienced that before.

No, look, you've seen the contrasting emotions, you know, when England are going down in flames or whatever it is, or it's an easy victory. But that, that sense of anger that this is— well, This is not cricket. Yeah. And that is a phrase that endures. You know, it doesn't translate to America, but in, you know, in the cricket-playing world, people sort of understand what that phrase means. Yes. And I think that there is still a decent— I mean, look, it's a highly competitive, highly professional sport with, you know, data analysts and all the rest of it. But there is still a sense that it's, you know, this is a game played.

It feels like it's fading a bit.

Yeah, of course. Look, I'm sure with increased professionalism, increased sponsorship, increased money coming into the game, that it feels different.

Yeah, yeah. So those— I'm just trying, I'm trying to date you as far as your, your trip. Not literally, sorry, I'll put it another way. Trying to, trying to, trying to—

I'm trying to work out quite old when it was.

Who would have been playing then? Let's put it that way. When you were coming down here as a, as a kid.

Oh my God, well, you're, you're really going back in time. Yeah, I mean, yeah, really.

We're going to Brulees and, yeah, and Smith and the opening batsman and, uh, I don't know who. So, um, uh, keeping wicket, Murray. keeping wicket?

Quite possibly. I'm trying to remember myself. I was trying to rack my brains before I came in here. I mean, my most memorable day here at Lord's was in 1995, and I think it was the 2nd Test match against the West Indies. And I was living in Winchester then. I was a political correspondent at Westminster, right? And I was living just outside Winchester, a village called Cheriton. There was a lovely guy who was the publican in Winchester of the Wickham Arms, which is a beautiful pub right by the cathedral, called Graham Jameson, and he'd got us tickets to come and bought a big picnic. I was in shorts and a t-shirt and flip-flops for this particular occasion. And then there are a couple of blokes sitting in front of me at Lords, and there's one suddenly says to the other, yeah, that John Major's just resigned his leadership of the Tory Party and has challenged all comers. Really? And the next thing that happens Is my pager goes off. Do you remember the old pagers? Ba ba ba ba ba, ba ba ba ba ba. And it says, "Get to Westminster immediately." I live in Winchester. I'm in shorts, t-shirt, and flip-flops. Oh my God! What do you do? What do I do now? Got a taxi to Selfridges. So I went in looking like a complete scruff, having been drinking a little bit during the course of the day, and then said to the sales assistant, "Right, I need a suit." A shirt, a tie, socks, and a pair of shoes, please. And I need to be out of here ideally in the next 15 to 20 minutes.

Wow.

So this woman, the sales assistant, rose to the challenge magnificently. And clothes were being thrown into the fitting room. And eventually— and then she said, what about a tie? I said, what about that one? She said, oh, a bit somber for such a fun day, don't you think?

Brilliant.

So she comes in and sure enough I go to Westminster fully kitted out like a new boy at school. You know, your first day at school where you're wearing the blazer and the tie and everything's creased perfectly. So I turn up at Millbank like that and then a few days later I saw a diary. I told a few mates what had happened and Norman Tebbett was then writing a diary for The Sun newspaper and he spoke so approvingly of what I had done that day of leaving London Lords, leaving the cricket, going to Selfridges, getting a new suit and all the rest of it. And I thought, blimey, I've never normally had any words of praise from Norman Tebbett before. And what happened was that I then found out he was a director of the parent company of Selfridges, so there was a win-win. There was nothing to do with praise for me, it was a chance to show the other board members that he was worth his money on the board.

He's been a View from the Boundary.

Has he?

Yes, he has, a few years ago now. Yeah, of course John Major was here yesterday.

Well, I saw him here yesterday. I saw that he was here yesterday.

So who do Who have been your favourite cricketers then, John, over the years?

I remember when I was at university and it was the '81— I was in my final year at university, '81. And there was a department store that had a sale and it had a colour TV for, I think it was like for £20. So we had 4 housemates and we queued all night at Carrefour in Eastleigh. That's right, it all comes back to me now. Carrefour in Eastleigh to get this colour television and we watched the test at Headingley.

Yeah.

And so, you know, watching Beefy in his pomp and glory and all of those people, they were fantastic. I mean, so the all-rounders, the people who've got that force of personality that change games or have just got that, that superstar quality, and you've seen it, you, you know, I mean, watching Viv Richards play.

Yeah.

I mean, the effortlessness with which he's just knocking the ball all over the place and just seemingly enjoying it. And so cool with it. I mean, those are the sort of players that stick in the mind. I mean, I know there's been the whole controversy over Imran Khan, but watching him play in his day, he was a beautiful cricketer. Yeah, yeah.

Um, but you're right about all-rounders having this force though, because they are, they are, they are massive characters, aren't they? They bat, they bowl, they field, they, they're in the game all of the time. Yeah. And they do have this real drive.

And I think, you know, it's, it maybe it's overstated to say one player out of 11 can turn a game, But you do feel at times that the character of Stokes or some of these other players that you've seen down— Freddie Flintoff, down the ages— that they have the power just to transform the ordinary and make it extraordinary. They can't do it every time. It's like the footballers, like Lionel Messi. You just think, oh my God, they've got magic attached to them. I think that there are certain players that just have that charisma.

Yes.

That just raises the the team, the spirit, and other people who are participating. Yeah. Tests for you, or are you sort of like—

do you like all forms of cricket? T20 and Hundreds? Have you been to one of those?

Yeah, well, I went— I tell you, I went to— when we were in India, I was with my wife Linda, and I think our daughter was there, Anna, and we were in Chennai, and it was 2012, and it was The IPL. Oh, okay. And and it and it was going to be one of Sachin Tendulkar's final games before he retired. Right. And so there was going to be this in there was enormous attention.

That would have been huge. Yeah. Yeah. So so Mumbai Indians playing.

So Mumbai Indians playing the is it the Chinese Super Kings? Yeah, exactly. So they were playing the Super Kings. We got tickets and we're staying in a nice hotel. And so yeah, we went to this ground. Except we got caught in the most horrendous traffic about two miles, and I said, "Right, I'm going to get out and run. I want to be there when Tendulkar comes out onto the onto the pitch." And that no, you can't, sir. You cannot get out of the car. You absolutely cannot. You get back in the car, and they chased after me and dragged me back, and they said, "It's not safe. You can't do this." So so yeah. So I've I've watched other you know other forms of cricket.

It is pretty crazy there. Oh, isn't it? I mean, it is.

Oh, the obsession! And you know, I. I went to India a few times for work, and you know, being in Mumbai and by the law courts, and there's the maiden they call it.

The beauty of Madan. Yeah, it's a beautiful setting. Beautiful. Which is where Sachin learned how to play. Exactly. Yeah.

And you, you know, you watch these young kids. Yeah.

And they are just possessed. All these games kind of, they're kind of intertwined because someone's playing there, someone's playing there, and you can't work out where the boundary is.

No, exactly.

Who's he playing for? Which, you know, where's he fielding? But it's, it's that, it's that chaos. But it's, it's like India itself, isn't it? Chaotic, but it kind of works.

Yeah. And, and I suppose the other, I mean, the other time. I mean, this is, you know, going back to my journalistic career rather than being a sports nut, which I am. I was in Sri Lanka. I was sent to cover the tsunami in 2005 and ended up in Galle by the cricket ground.

That's a ground we know very well.

Yeah, and it's the— you know, I'm sure many of you, the listeners, have been to see that, but if you haven't, it is by this, you know, historic Dutch fort. It is magnificent, and it's the most beautiful setting with the sea nearly on all sides. Of course, in 2005, that Christmas after Boxing Day. It was horrible. And, you know, and you saw people were playing—

they were playing— Harrow School were playing on the ground at the time.

That's right. And you— and we— when we— I got there, there were the old score— the scorebooks were there, you know, Harrow School and all the rest of it. And you just— and you kind of all washed away, all watery from the, you know, the, the sea that had cut the—

you could see the line, you know, the water line across the white wall. I remember we were back there about a year later. In fact, they kept the They hadn't whitewashed it out. They left it there. But we go there a lot. And I had played cricket quite a lot with the groundsman there. He's quite a character. And my first thought— we were in Durban, actually. There's a Test match going on in Durban. And I remember looking at the height of the stand at the far end at Durban and imagining that much water. That much water. That was the height approximately of that wave that went around, and my first thought was of him. And it was quiet for a couple of days, and then sure enough— he's a lovely chap, he's got teeth missing, a bit of a character— but he popped up and he was, he was okay. Because actually nobody, although they were playing cricket on the ground that day, no, nobody died on that cricket ground. The wave went round, the fort went round and sent the wave around the back and caused utter devastation to the— We used to go out Commentating and just sit and watch out the back for a bit of a change of view at the bus station. So busy, and little shops, you know, just gone, obliterated.

Yeah, so I was there 3 or 4 days afterwards, and of course the cricket ground became part of the rescue center. And where, you know, did they use that for actually putting—

well, like mortar, I suppose.

Yeah, it was. And that was tough, and that was tough to look at. And I remember the US Secretary of State at the time, Colin Powell, his helicopter arrived there because that was an obvious landing spot. And so the meaning of the cricket ground changed entirely. And I was, I was presenting, uh, a lot of the BBC's coverage from there. And I remember we would— it was going into the headlines, I was about to read the headlines. And so you've got, you know, you've got the, the director in London counting down in your ear, you know, 10, 9, 8, 7. And the guy comes over to where I'm about to do the headlines and he says This is where my house was. I lost 8 of my family here. How do you say, excuse me, sir, I'm just about to do the headlines. Could you just mind? Could you get out of shot, please? Of course you can't. You've just got to react to that. It had quite an impact on me, that time in Gaul. It was so shocking. The decency of the people.

Yes.

I remember going to what had become a refugee camp, effectively. A bit inland where the water had stopped. All the people who'd lived on the coast had moved out there for safety. A food truck had arrived and they were giving out biscuits and rice and flour and stuff like this. This guy, very, very old guy who talked about Clement Attlee and talked about the war and called it Ceylon.

Wow.

Ancient guy. He'd finally got some biscuits and some food. And the first thing he did was offer me a biscuit, and I had to say, honestly, sir, I'm fine, you know. And so I— yeah, it's— that's a country that has, you know, stayed with me. Yeah, very much.

It is. It's a wonderful country. It's such a friendly, welcoming place, and yet it's had so many troubles over the years too, hasn't it? I mean, we've been, you know, caught up in bombs going off there, and yeah, you know, armed roadblocks and everything when the Tamil situation was going on. And cricket somehow I think cricket's fascinating because it's sort of switching to journalistic mode here a bit, but because of the way that cricket was taken around the world during the Empire, the legacy of the Empire kind of lives on. And what actually we left behind— partition, Sri Lanka, the Tamil situation, you've got the Caribbean issues there.

In South Africa when it was apartheid.

Correct. cricket kind of finds itself linked with, with that history. Yeah. Which is part of the job that I found so fascinating doing my job over the years, because you end up that these things are still, are still going on. History rumbles on through, through cricket, through back way back in those days of the Empire.

It, it does. And, you know, and you can't divorce yourself from history. I mean, the people who say you've got to keep politics out of sport, and you think, well, it's impossible because you're part of a society and What sometimes is happening is as a result of that, you know, if you've got, you know, going back to apartheid South Africa, if you're not picking players because of their color, then that is an issue. And but equally, I think that sport can be, you know, a thing that unites people.

But it was South Africa. I mean, didn't it? I mean, I mean, exactly. The Gleneagles Agreement and the boycott of South Africa actually helped enormously to bring down apartheid.

And, you know, we're talking about a different sport now. But when South Africa won the World Cup in rugby, the kind of, you know, Mandela and the Rainbow Nation, and there was a real sense of hope and optimism that came with it. And the support in the sport was a manifestation of that. You know, that became, you know, the Rugby Union, the Springboks suddenly weren't just a team of white South Africans, you know, from the ruling class. It changed. And so there are positive things that happen with sport of a unifying nature.

Yes, wish it could happen with India and Pakistan, but that's a That's a bigger problem altogether.

Yeah. The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

Prep for a busy week with Whole Foods Market. Start your day with fully cooked breakfast sausages from Amy Liu, 365 brand frozen waffles with no bleached flours, and of course Whole Foods Market eggs, which are all cage-free or better. In the evening, bring home a build-your-own family meal that feeds 4 for just $35. Choose 1 entrée and 2 sides. Shop smarter, not harder, at Whole Foods Market.

Get more with BBC Podcasts wherever you listen. Be the first to listen to your favorite shows like Evil Genius, Good Bad Billionaire, and You're Dead to Me with a subscription to BBC Podcasts Premium on Apple Podcasts. You can also enjoy a range of our podcasts ad-free I did listen to that little clip this morning, John.

I'm going to play it now because this is— this is you and President Donald Trump in the White House in his first spell.

Where are you from?

BBC.

Here's another beauty. It's a good line. Impartial, free, and fair.

Yeah, sure.

Mr. President—

Just like CNN, right? On the travel ban— we could banter back and forth. On the travel ban, would you accept that that was a good example of the smooth running of government? Yeah, I do. I do. Let me tell you about the travel ban. Were there any mistakes involved? Wait, wait. I know who you are. Just wait. Let me tell you about the travel ban. We had a very smooth rollout of the travel ban. But we had a bad court.

How do you deal with him? How on earth? I mean, you stood your ground, to be fair. Yeah, I was.

So, look, be prepared for the unexpected with Donald Trump. So I knew that there was a fair chance, for whatever reason, he would have a go. And I thought, I'm going to be polite. I don't want to, you know, I'm not the enemy of Donald Trump. I'm going to be respectful. He is the head of state. I am visiting. I'm kind of there as the BBC's North America editor. And I'm working in Washington, but I'm not American. And so I, you know, should be respectful. But equally, what, you know, when he was trying to say that BBC was fake news, I just wanted to say no, it's free, fair, and impartial. I would still say that even though it's 4 years since I've worked for the corporation. And I think that it was important to stand the ground. But how do you do with him? Goodness knows. It's when he said, you know, he said, stop, I know who you are. And my phone suddenly lights up and it's my kids saying, he knows who you are.

That's quite intimidating, isn't it?

Yeah, he's meant to, but he does that deliberately. I mean, that's part of the shtick. He wants to beat you up, he wants to demean you, he wants to call you fake news. And, you know, Donald Trump has been quite explicit about it. He says that he wants to create a situation where his supporters think that everything that comes out of a TV or a radio set is fake news, and the only real news is what he gives them. And he wants people to think that they can't rely and trust what they hear. And I think that's dangerous. He calls us enemies of the people, which sort of has a kind of darkness that goes back to Soviet-era stuff where there were enemies of the people in Stalin's Russia. And I think that—

Is it working? I mean, is he convincing these people that—

He's convincing a certain section of the population. Look, you know, I've always— I've loved my journalistic career. I've traveled the world. I've done amazing things. You know, I wouldn't have changed it for anything. Have I always thought the role I'm playing is absolutely vital to society? Well, at times it's important, but you know I've had good fun as well doing it. I think at the moment, given how much misinformation there is out there, I don't want to sound pompous about any of this or kind of high and mighty, but I do think that you know journalism, good journalism, plays a critical role. I listen to you know my former colleague Steve Rosenberg in Moscow.

I was going to mention him. I mean what a job he's got.

I mean what a job he's got. What a fantastic guy he is as well. And you know he he threads that needle. of being firm, holding the Russian government, regime, slash whichever you want to call it, to account, whilst at the same time not falling so foul of them. You know, so you've still got the government, you know, Putin spokesman Dmitry Peskov still taking his calls. Putin's still calling him to ask questions. And so, you know—

He does, does he?

Yeah, and I think people like that have got a vital job to tell us what is happening in the world. And I think that if we just leave it to wannabe autocrats and dictators, then the world becomes a very much more dangerous place and bad things happen. And so I think that there is a role for calling this stuff out. And so with Donald Trump, you know, on day one, one of the things that we came up against, it was he— when he, you know, there was suddenly this briefing that was being held on a Saturday evening. There are never briefings held in the White House on a Saturday evening. And this guy, Sean Spicer, who was then his press secretary, comes in red-faced, sweaty, And he's not reading his own handwriting. He's clearly reading what Donald Trump has written for him, which was—and it's so absurd, it's so ludicrous to talk about it—but it was that Donald Trump was claiming that the crowd for his inauguration was the biggest in American history, and it just wasn't. The crowds for Obama's inauguration, first inauguration, was huge. I mean, it was vast, way, way bigger. But Donald Trump had so. There was there's me, the BBC, you know, kind of guy in DC who's trying to having to interpret this. And do I say, well, on the one hand Donald Trump is claiming this, but on the other hand that? Or do I just say it's not true? Because I think there are times, you know, two plus two is four. Some people say two plus two is six. Only time will tell. John Sopel, BBC News. No, two plus two is four. You know, and there are times I think when. I mean, something is obvious before you and you've got to have the courage to say it. And I think that we live in a time now where people are prepared to peddle untruths and fake news. And you can see it on, you know, you go on your Instagram feed or you look at wherever it happens to be and you see that, hang on, is that a real picture or is that AI?

Yeah.

And, and you don't know what to believe and what to trust. And the fact that there are news organizations, and hopefully our podcast, The News Agents, and what the BBC does. We're trying to sift and trying to sort out fact from fiction. And look, there's still people who are going to be ideologically committed from one viewpoint or another who are thinking we are fake news, we're part of mainstream media, we're not to be trusted. I can't help that. But the battle is to— you know, there are a majority of people, I think, who are decent, want the truth, and I think that we've never got to forget that they play a vital role. Yeah.

What happened to Sean Spicer? Sean used to pop up. It was always a guaranteed laugh. I mean, it was just hysterical.

There was, you know, there was one day where there was some bad story that happened and Sean Spicer hid in the bushes in the White House grounds so that he couldn't be found by journalists. I'm not kidding you. I'm trying to remember what the story was, but he was just, I don't want to talk to the press about this. So he just went and hid. And I just think that that was, that was so— and he was succeeded by another press secretary. Sarah Huckabee Sanders, who's now the governor of Arkansas. So holds an enormously powerful position in America. And I went and saw her with a cameraman of ours had been attacked by a Trump supporter at a Trump rally where Trump had turned, you know, he will suddenly look at where the press riser is, where all the cameras are, and say, look at them over there, fake news, enemies of the people. They just make it up. You don't believe a word they say. And someone came onto the press riser. This was in Texas. Our cameraman cameraman Ron, lovely guy from Ohio, is holding one of these old heavy cameras and someone pushes him from behind and sends him flying. I went and saw Sarah Sanders to say, look, I can't— I'm not telling you what the President says or doesn't say or what he should or shouldn't say, but if he is going to make incendiary comments, there needs to be proper protection for the journalists so that they don't get attacked because all we are doing is covering his speeches, and it's just not fair. And she accepted that. She was very responsive to it, actually. And I said, just how do you cope with all of this? Without a second's hesitation, she just goes, bourbon. And I just knew she wasn't joking. I knew she wasn't joking. I think that, you know, the— you know, to your original question, how do you deal with Donald Trump? Bourbon. And I think there are a lot of people who find it that way. But, you know, listen, he has been I mean, no one— look, there is no doubt in my mind, absolutely zero doubt, that he lost the 2020 election. Joe Biden won that election fair and square. There is no doubt. The courts have ruled on it umpteen times. All sorts of people have ruled on it. But there is equally no doubt in my mind that he won the '24 presidential election and the 2016 presidential election fair and square. He has a very good sense of public opinion, which which, you know, other parties, other leaders endlessly do opinion polling and focus groups and qualitative research and quantitative research. And Donald Trump just has a feel of where the heartbeat is of the American people. He's not always appealing to their better angels. He's sometimes appealing to their worst devils. But it's effective. And I think that, you know, you look at the 2024 election when you had a sort of, you know, Kamala Harris comes in late. Donald Trump knew that people were furious about the amount of illegal immigration, and you can transpose, you know, Donald Trump's concerns maybe to the concerns that people feel in this country at the moment about illegal immigration, about the number of people coming across the southern border. He thought that it got too woke on trans issues and other things. And so every day, every Saturday when college football— and college football is a huge thing in America— would run these adverts saying Kamala Harris is for them. They Donald Trump is for you. Brilliant, brilliant bit of political sloganeering. So the man has real visceral political skill that of a sense of where the mood is, a sense of the feel. Now I think he's losing it slightly, some of that feel, and his you know approval ratings are going down. And I think the war in Iran, other things. I don't want to get involved in all the politics of it, but I think that sense that he. That I think that into his second term, some of the things he's preoccupied about, about whether there's a ballroom at the White House and, you know, the reflecting pool and all that's gone wrong there and some of the other stuff and building the Arc de Trump, Trump, which is what he wants to build, you know, at the back of the Lincoln Memorial. I mean, come on. You know, that's not what the American people are concerned about. And he's losing that sense.

Do you take him seriously? I mean, do you? Yeah. And do you have any sort of admiration? Might be the wrong word, but I mean, do you— can you get a sense of where he is coming from with these random rants that he has in the middle of the night on Truth Social.

Yeah, look, I think that, I think that there is a lot of stuff that he has done, you know, at the start of— I just don't think he thinks things through properly in a, you know, I mean, you look at what happened, what was— what he thought would happen with Iran, total miscalculation. Now, look, he's not the first political leader, you know, George W. Bush, arguably Tony Blair over Iraq in 2003, where I ended up out You know, covering that another great miscalculation. You know, politicians don't seem to learn the lessons from history that you and that they kind of have one success, which Donald Trump did spectacularly in Venezuela and the overthrow of Nicolas Maduro, and they think, "Oh, I'm invincible now. I can do whatever I like." And sure enough, they get caught out. And that is what has, you know, I think happened with Donald Trump. But I think that. You know, we used to talk. Oh, I can hear a cheer going.

That'll be the umpires coming out, I think possibly. Oh, it's more covers going off. Yeah.

Yeah, that's good. That's good. You know, the people today, there's this phrase that we kind of use about the attention economy. You know what was wrong with Keir Starmer as the prime minister? He couldn't command the attention economy. He wasn't very good at telling a story about what it is that he is doing. And look, Donald Trump. Donald Trump controlled the attention economy back in 2016. No one else. You know, if you were a director, I kind of thought about this. Donald Trump got 10 times more coverage than any other candidate because every other candidate would give the same speech whether they were in Ohio or somewhere else. You know, whether they were in kind of, I don't know, Baton Rouge. And it didn't matter where they were, they would give the same stump speech. With Donald Trump, there was always a sense of jeopardy. You didn't know what was going to happen next, and that was exciting. Yes. And I think that so Donald Trump still commands our attention because we don't know what he's going to say next in the way he's going to say it. And you know, what is it this week? This week, it's you know Lake Lake America. Lake Ontario is now Lake America. And you think, oh God! But he he he does he really mean it?

I mean, I don't know. There's the Gulf of America now.

I think I think I think he means it when he says. But I think he— for him, it is a way of controlling the conversation. It's a way of him being the headlines. He wants to be the headlines all the time. And so, you know, there's this phrase of flooding the zone. He floods the zone with his own sort of stuff, and no one else can get a look in.

And you've got to pick through it, though.

And you've got to pick through it. And you've got to— you've got— and, and you, you know, other— the danger for a journalist like myself is we look like a demented dog that is chasing every ball that is ever thrown in a park and is chasing its own tail. Tail going this direction, that direction. So you've got to work out. Hang on, that's just nonsense. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not engaging in this. But this stuff potentially is quite serious. So we ought to look at that. And you know that drives Trump mad if he feels that his attempts to deflect attention fail. But that's our job to try and say, look, this potentially is really serious if he does X and he does Y, he does that. And you know the Iran war. The, you know, gas prices, fuel prices at the pump have gone up for ordinary Americans. Part of the reason he got elected was cost of living. And so he hasn't— he hasn't delivered on that. And it's possible they'll pay a heavy price in the midterms for it. Yeah.

Just last one. When you got called there and you asked your— you asked your question, how does it— how does it work? I mean, is it, you know, you just put your hand up and it sounds— and obviously usually When you're following a Trump press conference, you're looking at him. But he answers the question, and you hear all this shrieking and shouting and carrying on and people trying to get a question. I mean, is it as disorderly as that? Or is it actually— did you know that you were going to have a chance to ask a question?

No, I didn't. It was in the East Room of the White House, which is kind of where the state occasions happen, the banquets and whatever else. I just thought I got into the room early. The Secret Service— oh, the main cover's coming off. Look at that. Oh, that's all happening.

This is very encouraging. You'll hear the roller in a minute, hopefully.

I tell you what, I'm a kid in the candy store up here. This is what a vantage point this is. This is the view to die for. So, you know, Donald— I was in the East Room of the White House, and I got a seat right on his eyeline so that I knew where there was the podium. I was about 3 rows back, but on the corner of the row and I had his eyeline. So I thought there would be a fair chance that I would catch his eye. So Donald Trump attacks me in that clip that you play. I think I had, you know, when it was then Twitter, I think I had 40,000 followers on Twitter. I can't remember exactly. By the time I left the White House, I had 80,000. It was instant.

Yeah.

So for journalists, Trump is the worst of times and the best of times. It's, it's, you know, he's the, he's the gift that keeps on giving. I wrote 3 books while I was out in America in the 8-year stint that I was there.

I bet you had time.

Well, I did, but I was— but it was so compulsive. It was so exciting. It was so kind of, you know, and look, it was an enormous privilege. You know, I covered the last 2 years of Obama. I did all of Trump. First bit of Biden, and and you know, and it was pinch yourself moments. So when I heard we got an inter sit down interview with Barack Obama, amazing. And then you suddenly think, oh my God!

And you know, how long did you have to prepare for that?

There were about four or five days, but they said you can't put anything on social media because if anything happens and he's called to the you know situation room, yeah, the interview's off. You he's the interview's not happening until he walks in the room. He walked in the room early. And he's never early. And we started, oh my God, he's here. And I asked the first question at about 450 miles an hour. I said, actually, can we just— let's take that again. He said, yeah, why don't we all take a breath? Actually, I think I've got something in my eye. And he just starts rubbing his eye. I thought, my God, this is the first time that I've been put at ease by the person I'm interviewing. And at the end of the interview, The BBC had said to me, we've got to get clips out immediately. We've got to get a clip on 5 Live. We've got to get a clip on the news channel. We've got a clip on BBC World. And then you've got to do the package for the 6 o'clock and the 10 o'clock news. And I said, understood. And they said, just so once you stop rolling, you head out. And so I've asked the final question. I say, Mr. President, thank you very much. Thank you, Jon. Would you like to come out and see the Rose Garden?

No.

I had an angel on my shoulder saying, no, no, John, no, you can't see the Rose Garden. You've got to go back and feed the clips for the BBC machine.

Someone else could do that.

Someone else could do that. That was exactly my view. The whole crew came out and then we go out into the Rose Garden and we have a bit more chat. At the end of it, he goes, do you think your crew would like a team photo? No, I don't. I think they probably would miss the president if that's all right. So the White House photographer came out and took this lovely photo of all the team. So you know, look, do you find them all charismatic?

I mean, the politicians politicians I've interviewed, most of them seem to have something. They've got something when they walk in the room. Sort of. Do you know what I mean? It's something that just goes charisma or I don't know what the quite the word is. It is charisma. They do have something.

It is charisma. Yeah. And I can tell this story. I don't think I— well, we interviewed Keir Starmer. Emily and I interviewed Keir Starmer for the podcast in Davos. And we told his people the room where we would be. And he walked in and said, oh, should I come back later? And you just thought, you're the leader of the opposition, mate. You do— you know, it was when he was the Labour leader. It was before the election. I thought, you dictate the terms. I didn't think there was charisma there. Whereas, you know, and I'm not saying this approvingly or disapprovingly, people can have good charisma, they can have bad charisma. But Trump had charisma, Obama had charisma, Boris Johnson had charisma. I think Andy Burnham's got a bit of charisma. Blair had charisma, Cameron had, you know, there were a lot of them that you just thought, wow, they are, you know, they're in charge. And of course it's helped by the fact they've got an entourage and they're a secret service, you know, they've got bodyguards and whatever else.

Of course. Everyone's scurrying around.

Everyone's scurrying around. And you know, when I walked out with Obama into the Rose Garden, you suddenly realize that of course there is this phalanx of Secret Service that surround, that are 10 paces ahead. And there is— this is the outer edges of a force field where there is mayhem and chaos and people are being thrown to one side and pushed out the way. But at the center of it, utter calmness and serenity. And so I think that, you know, that— look, that helps give you that sense of augustness. But I think it's true, you know. And I think that the people that have got a good, easy charm and can relate to people, I think, makes it so much easier.

How are the roses, by the way?

Well, the roses, I think a lot of them have gone now. It's all been concreted over. A lot of the— a lot of the rose garden.

Yeah, is that where the ballroom's going?

Well, no, I think it's where they've made way for a helicopter pad or something. So yeah, it was, it was beautiful. I mean, it's beautiful. I mean, the Oval Office itself is like being in a country house, you know. You almost expect the grandfather— you can almost hear the grandfather clock ticking. And it's because it's, again, it's this oasis of calm whereas the mayhem is going on elsewhere.

John Sopel's with me. It's great to have you here, John. Uh, Strangelands, I want to talk about that because that's— you've mentioned writing books, uh, and there you are, 8 years away. And you wrote, I think, about it saying Strange Land because of what you encountered when you came back again, back here, back to home after 8 years in the States.

Well, yeah, I'd say, I'd expect, you know, the normal foreign correspondence book is you turn up in the country, you're fascinated by various aspects of it. And I wrote another book which is called If Only They Didn't Speak English, which is kind of meditations on America and how we think we know it so well and yet it is so different. And so that was the classic foreign correspondent book that I wrote, which did very well. My publisher was very keen that I wrote more. And then I came back to Britain in 2022, and I thought the country had somehow become a bit unrecognizable. You know, the first— this is dating me— the first general election I voted in was the '79 general election when Margaret Thatcher came to power. The Labour government, after the Winter of Discontent, content had gone. And for the next 28 years, 28, there were 3 prime ministers. There was Thatcher, there was John Major, and there was Tony Blair. You know, 1979 to 2007. And in 2022, we had 3 prime ministers in 1 year. And it kind of got me thinking, now something funny is going on with our politics. Something's going on. And it was partly to do with, I think, the country trying to figure out, or the political class trying to figure out, Okay, we voted for Brexit, but what does this look like? And how does it you know how do we deliver economic growth? That's not that easy. I think it was also post-COVID where people are kind of looking and thinking, you know, were the vaccines necessary? Were schools shutdowns necessary? And there was conspiracy theories galore. And I I think that as a nation, Britain had always believed in cock. If there were things were going wrong, it was because the politicians were useless, not because they were venal or plotters. And suddenly we are buying into conspiracy theory in a big way. And I saw some of the divisions that I had seen over the previous eight years in America, and that was new to me.

That the Britain was so—you don't think they've been here before?

I don't think there had been that degree of polarization. Oh yeah, I think that you know there were conservative. You know, and you look at our politics today and it's still going on where you look at the support there is for Farage, very skilled communicator, for Rupert Lowe, even further right, or Zac Polanski from the Greens. There were never those forces in British politics. It was 3 parties then, you know, there was a Conservative Party, there was a Labour Party, and there were Liberal Democrats. There were the nationalist parties obviously as well, but they were never, you know, now there are far-right parties, now there are You know, arguably the Greens to the far left, and that has changed in our politics. And so I was fascinated by what the forces were that were driving that. 2022 also, you know, so 2022, I felt a bit of despair about coming back to Britain. It also felt like everything was sort of broken. And you know, I still think some of the things about our infrastructure and the things that go wrong, you just think, oh my God, this country! I still think a bit of that. But then the Queen died, and I realized that we had this unifying force. And it was kind of—I mean, it was terrible and you know very emotional when she passed. But what a life! And the way the country came together. And you know, I remember I think it was the day of the King's coronation, and I was—it was a football match, and I think it was—I think it was Tottenham Crystal Palace, and I. Everyone was singing God Save the King so lustily with such passion and power. I thought, actually, you know what, we're going to be all right because there are still things. There is a public square where we can come together and not want to tear each other to bits. I think that is really, really important for a nation. I think that for all the problems there are with royalty or monarchy or whatever, I think it served this country pretty well.

Are you enjoying being able to speak with this sort of freedom now? Yes, yes, yes. I don't—

I— it's not that I can suddenly reveal myself as a Maoist, or I'd be surprised if you did. Yeah, or some kind of fascist. But, but I don't have to worry about on the one hand, on the other now. And, you know, and I think, look, as I, I hope I've indicated, I was incredibly proud to have worked for the corporation for as long as I did. I absolutely loved my time at the BBC. I think there are things around impartiality and where the BBC has got to at times be a little tougher, of being prepared to call things out when things are clearly right or wrong. But at the same time, yeah, look, I've got freedom now to, you know, and people can say, how dare you express that opinion? Aren't you meant to be a journalist? Yeah, I'm a journalist with an opinion now.

Yes.

But I think that the values of, um, you know, trustworthy, fair reporting— I mean, we—

That's the word, isn't it? Yeah, fairness. Well, whatever, whatever your view is, as whoever you're working for, fairness is kind of—

We got accused on the podcast of betrayal when we started, you know, kind of criticizing Starmer for some of the things that he was doing and said, how could you say that? Well, because we're there to speak truth to power. I don't care who's in power, but our job is to hold those people to account. Whether, you know, and if they're doing wrong, you've got to say that's gone really badly, that was an ill-thought-through policy, that was badly phrased. And you've got to have this confidence to do that. Otherwise, I think that you leave people— otherwise, I think it does play into the hands of people who want to peddle falsehood. And I, you know, because people— I hate hate X at the moment, where it's just— you are just generating anger, and anger is what gets you likes, and the more angry you become, the more likes you get. And so people think, oh well, I'm not going to say, let me just respectfully disagree with Jonathan Agnew. You've got to go to war. And I just think that is so reductive and boring.

Yes.

And I just think it induces such cynicism, and I I don't want to be cynical about politics and politicians. I want to be critical, but I don't think, oh God, they're all a bunch of liars. They're all a bunch of— I don't doubt that Andy Burnham, Kemi Badenoch, Nigel Farage, in whatever way, want to make their vision of Britain come to— so that we're a better country. I think some of the ways they go about things we should criticise, but I don't think we should just doubt everything about all these people. I think it's our job to scrutinise.

Has social media really made this much more difficult?

It has, it has. But I think that the mistake people make is to think that social media is the real world. I think that, you know, 100,000 people come out angrily onto the streets of central London for a demonstration. I always think, okay, that's it. There's obviously very fired up about Gaza or whatever the issue, you know, I'm not saying that is the issue, but whatever the issue is. But there are 68 million people who haven't, who are getting on with their lives, who are, you know, worried about their kids' education, who are worried about how they're going to make ends meet, who are worried about whether there's going to be play at Lord's on the 3rd day of the Test match. You know, people have other concerns. And I think that the mistake a lot of the politicians make is that They spend far too much time scrolling online. Get off your device, go and talk to people. Because I think that when there was that terrible case of the Southport killings of those little kids, and there were riots, and everyone was saying, oh, look at Britain, we're tearing each other up. And they were terrible, some of the riots. But what about all the people who turned up the next day to help clear up, help rebuild? Build. I think there is still a decency there. I'm willing to believe there is a decency in the majority of British people that care about their neighbours and don't want to pick fights. And I think that that is there, but the forces of populism are alive and thriving at the moment. And it is, you know, that is a challenge to kind of, you know, have a calm conversation with people.

Yeah. Do you miss that sort of sudden Exhilaration of being a journalist on call, and and and yeah, your your buzzer going, and you know John Major and all of that. Do you I mean do you miss that?

Do you know what the greatest treat? I I genuinely, and I said this to my wife two nights ago, that I said honestly, I put my phone on do not disturb at night now because because I used to be right get okay we've booked you know you'd get woken up in the middle of the night that you're being told that they've booked you onto a flight to go to wherever in America it was inevitably because there'd been a mass. shooting or something like that. You're going to somewhere grim at a moment's notice. When I was travelling the world, you were being sent to places— ending up in Afghanistan after 9/11 or in Iraq or wherever it happens to be. There is a bit of the adrenaline of running towards an aircraft, not sure where you're going to be staying when you get there, whether there is a translator to meet you at the of the steps off the plane because you don't speak the language, wherever it happens to be. Of course, there is a bit of that that I miss, but I, you know what, I did it. It was wonderful. I had a fantastic time. Wouldn't have missed it for the world. But, you know, to think, okay, well, I've arranged to come to Lord's today to talk on View from the Boundary. I'm going to be there. There's not going to be a story that's going to interrupt that. And that's quite nice as well.

Well, I'm glad you've done it, John. It's been lovely chatting. It's been fabulous. Knew it would. Thank you. Meeting there, as we did, completely by accident. Wells next to the sea. Exactly. Brings us everyone.

Lovely Brings everyone together. Beautiful, beautiful. And I was there last weekend. It's just—

But you said you got a little boat. Um, a friend of mine there has got a little boat as well. Only a little sort of rowing boat type thing. Yeah, Unsinkable the Second. So if you see— if you see him upside down, if you see him, then he's, he's my friend. But thanks for being our View from the Boundary.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

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