View from the Boundary: Red Roses World Cup winner Sarah Bern.

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This is the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

We have a very special view from the boundary, which is quite apt for this being an historic test here because we have a guest who knows just what it's like to perform at the very highest level at iconic venues. And we're delighted to welcome a member of the all-conquering Red Roses, the England women's rugby team, who lifted the World Cup at Twickenham last summer. Sarah Byrne is a tighthead prop who debuted for England back in 2016, scoring a vital try in their semi-final win against France. She then played a crucial role when England lifted that trophy on an unforgettable day in September, beating Canada in front of a record-breaking crowd of nearly 82,000. Sarah, welcome to Test Match Specials. Great to see you.

Thank you for having me.

You've got a shirt there. That's not a rugby shirt though, I noticed.

No, it's not. It's definitely a lot thinner material. We just did an amazing kit swap, sorry, on the pitch. Is it called a pitch?

You got the pitch, the outfield. Yes.

And it was just absolutely fabulous. Like, I'm having the most amazing day and I've never actually been to a cricket game before live. And it's something that I'm really, really thoroughly enjoying and I'm already trying to get back to another one.

So yeah, it's been a brilliant day so far.

You've got the white England Test shirt there, so it carries real significance. But you're used to the phrase test because you play tests. That's the right terminology in rugby as well, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, it is.

I think I'm having a little bit of a terminology barrier today. I called it a stadium, I called it a pitch. All going out the window.

You're very welcome to be here, and we're loving the crossover between rugby and cricket. I mean, what you achieved at Twickenham was so, so special. England Women fell short in a World Cup final of their own here just a few days ago. Were you following that?

We were following. We also gave our support, and I think it's incredible I don't know, from a rugby perspective that, you know, they were playing in a World Cup and I know it's a different version of the game and they didn't quite make it. And then, you know, a few days later now playing incredibly hard Test match against one of the best teams in the world. So hats off to the women playing in this game today because— and that also participated in their World Cup because that's a massive mental, you know, huge mental barrier that they've had to get over and come back out and perform.

So incredible mental strength there from How long did you get after your World Cup final win to celebrate and soak it all up?

We had a week off and then another week kind of integrating back in, and then we were back into our Premiership club.

So it's a quick turnaround, but definitely longer than, you know, a few days.

So you've obviously— Twickenham is like your second home. What do you make of Lord's then, if this is your first visit here? What have your impressions been?

Oh, it's gorgeous. Like, just, I love all the different stands and how they're all slightly different, and this The media space that we're in now is incredibly— is huge. It's what an amazing element— sorry, sight of the pitch you have. So yeah, I've had— yeah, I don't have any complaints so far.

What about playing cricket? Have you ever picked up a bat? What's your—

when I was younger, I played, um, not at an incredibly high level. Um, I loved it, and then rugby became more consuming, so, um, I kind of left it there. But I think, um, I don't know if I have the accuracy with the bat in my hand.

I think I might stick to, you know, ball in hand is where I'm strongest.

When did you first pick up a rugby ball?

I picked up a rugby ball when I was 10 years Yeah, in what context?

Was that school or club or at home?

My cousin, we're very close in age, my uncle brought me down to a rugby club he was playing, and my uncle said, 'Oh, I think you'll be really good at this.' Like, I was very athletic, I did all different types of sports, and the coach there, he held up a rugby pad and he said, 'Run at me as hard as you can.' And I said, 'Okay.' And I think because I was a girl, I think he didn't think I'd run very hard, and I ran as hard as I could, and the poor fellow like fell over, did a backwards roll, and stood up and was like, 'Yeah, you'll be good at rugby.' And that's kind of how I found it.

I love it. You play for Bristol Bears now, so is that around Gloucestershire? Glostershire where you— sorry, yeah, around Gloucestershire where you grew up?

Uh, I actually grew up in London, um, and then when I was 16 I went to Hartpury College and I played rugby there at college level and through the England Under-20s pathway, and that's kind of how I've stayed in the Southwest ever since.

Yeah, a lot more trees, very green, very green. And rugby, you know, looking at the two sports, rugby and cricket, it strikes me, you know, cricket you have the bowling and the batting groups, quite sort of distinctive skills. In rugby you've got your forwards and your backs, different skill sets, different physicalities as well. Do you see those sort of parallels with two sports that are team sports, but there's real individual roles and groupings within them?

Yeah, I am. Yeah, definitely. I was just actually having a conversation with someone who sat next to me saying that it's so amazing that you have a sport that's built up, and especially in cricket, of so many intricate little details, and people have their own roles and their own skills. But when you come together, you're all trying to achieve that goal. And it's fairly similar in rugby, although be it different tactics, it's the same thing. You have your front row forwards who, you know, you need to win the scrum in order so that wingers can score on the edges. And it's, yeah, very, very, very similar in that regard.

Are the wingers the ones that take all the glory? You know, like bowlers would say, we do the grunt work and the batters get all, you know, we'll score the hundred because the bowlers take the wickets.

But, you know, 100%.

You do the hard work in the scrum.

We do the hard work and the wingers, they get to, you know, look pretty and score the tries. But, you know, without them, we might not be, you know, world champions. Yeah, everyone has a role and everyone is, you know, brilliant at executing it.

That World Cup was such a wave across the country. Did you feel that building? Did you feel the public getting behind you in that way?

Yeah, 100%. I think that's what made the World Cup so special for all of us because, you know, rugby in a World Cup, you know, rugby is rugby. It's going to be amazing because you're playing in a World Cup. It's an amazing opportunity. But actually, compared to the other two World Cups that I've been a part of, the energy and the excitement of people just wanting to come to the games, not even just the Red Roses games. But, you know, we sold out the stadium for the— for some New Zealand games, for some of the Ireland games. And it's been— it was just incredible to walk around the grounds and people go, oh, hello, like, can I have a picture with you? And from all different nations, not just the Red Roses and other teams, you know, mentioning that, saying, I can't believe how incredible our fans are and that they just turn up because they love the sport. And even if they don't love the sport, they just want to be a part of the day. That definitely drove us, you know, drove us to hope, you know, well, I say hopefully, but to get the trophy. And that day when we had 82,000 people there, like, nothing will ever compete with that feeling of lifting a trophy with a whole full stadium at Allianz. It was just incredible.

And have you felt that translates into rugby post the World Cup as well? Because crucially, it's all about that legacy, isn't it? Not being a one-off occasion, but maintaining that kind of interest?

Yeah, I think the interest in women's rugby, particularly at the international level, has just kind of exploded throughout our Six Nations. You had Ireland getting record crowds, you had Scotland, you know, playing in Murrayfield, which is an iconic stadium, and having a record crowd for them as well as, you know, England playing Ireland at Allianz. We again got the biggest record for a standalone Six Nations game ever. So records being broken all over the place. People, you know, engaging with us online, in the stadiums, at clubs. It's just really gone through the roof.

And even to the point, I was in B&Q the other day and doing some work on my house, and I was covered in paint, my hair wasn't brushed, and I thought, this is fine, no one will know who I am. And I was a bit shocked to find someone sneak up and say, why aren't you in your club colours? And I was like, oh, please don't ask for a picture, I look really bad right now.

Price of fame.

So it's been incredible and definitely a bit of a whirlwind and something that we're all getting used to.

To, but, you know, we wouldn't take it back at all. You know, our fans mean everything to us, and without them, you know, we wouldn't have jobs and be able to be professional rugby players. So it's incredible that, you know, they love us so much and they support us how they do.

I want to come to the professional side of it again in a moment, but also when in terms of that sense of being recognized much more now, I get the sense that you're really embracing that, and particularly from your social media, because you're very into body positivity, aren't you? And tell us what your message is to to girls, women who might want to play sport or might not feel so confident in their own body?

I would say 100% give it a try. Um, try not to let the voices in your head, which can be unkind for many women, um, halt you from something you really want to do. We only have one life, and if we spend so much time battling the tough thoughts in our head or trying to shrink ourselves to fit in because someone else has said something probably not very nice, it's gonna be a— you know, you're not gonna be able to reach one, your full potential, and you're not gonna enjoy it as much. And it's honestly very, very freeing when you put that all to the side and you just believe in you, you trust yourself. And I don't wanna say love yourself, but you probably learn to, you know, sit with yourself and ask yourself questions.

What do I wanna do?

Do I wanna be happy and fun? And go for it because We can all do that. It just takes a very brave step to kind of recognize what's holding you back and, you know, stop trying to fit into this idea of perfection that we all have. And it will be different for many people. And I always say it baffles me. You know, I had my issues with body positivity. I was always very broad growing up. My sisters were in ballet and dance, and I did not fit in in that area at all because of the way I looked, but— and I felt like I wasn't right or I wasn't correct. And actually I found rugby and I was celebrated because I was strong, I was powerful, I was fast. And actually there's so many areas of the world where if I never tried rugby, I wouldn't be who I am today, and I would have probably still had a lot of issues with, with how I perceived myself. So go out and do it and remember the most beautiful things in the world, Seven Wonders of the World. Beautiful because they are unique. So don't try and make yourself smaller.

And rugby is such a particular sport that it requires different body builds, doesn't it?

Yeah, yeah. You know, I wouldn't be able to, you know, have the life I live and be a professional rugby player and be a world champion if I wasn't broad-shouldered, strong, heavy. I wouldn't be able to do my job in the scrum, and that's vital for my team for me to be the best at my game at that element of our rugby game for, you know, like we say, the wingers to score, or the centres to do some amazing tricks out the back. And everyone has their own piece of the puzzle that they need to be excellent at, and that for me is what I need to be good at. And I'm not going to limit my rugby potential or where I could push myself and my body to because I don't necessarily fit into norms that society pushes on us. And I think we should really celebrate individuality.

How is your— is your training as a prop different to how a winger would train? Like fitness, strength work?

I would say yes, maybe not so much in the men's game because they all have to be very fast fit. In the— I guess the only difference is more the rugby-specific stuff. You generally— your front 5 forwards are your really strong players, so they love— they're in the gym, they're lifting the heaviest weights., and your back 5, your back 3 players are your quickest. So a lot of speed work, a lot of running around. So the breakdown is more that we do a lot of the heavy lifting, um, scrum, line-out work. It's not very fun.

You come and watch it, you probably think, why would anyone want to do that? But if you looked out the window and you saw the backs kicking the balls around, you'd probably be like, I think I want to go over there.

But one can't happen without the other.

Exactly. Um, and you know, everyone enjoys their own element. So yeah, there's slight elements of training, but generally we train very similar altogether.

Yeah, your profile as well, it helped you to forge a streetwear brand. Oh yeah, right, yeah, you enjoy your fashion and I love fashion.

That is something that I've always loved. Um, again, like, leaning into yourself and expressing yourself is something, you know, I'm an advocate for. Um, but we started a brand because we decided that we wanted to make rugby cool and mainstream, and at the time we didn't think that there was many brands or, or companies putting merchandise out that kind of aligned the two together and we wanted to make something that was a little bit, you know, tongue-in-cheek, you know, create a bit more of an interest, maybe not from a rugby perspective but from a, hey, I want to know more about that, that's quite interesting, that's a little bit different. So we went ahead and did that and there's four of us, myself, Emma Sword, Zoe Harrison, Jess Breach, and we're all figuring out together, trying to figure out business, we're not quite there yet, but you know, we're trying and that's the most important thing is to, you know, put yourself out there and give it a go.

What's your favourite style when you're not in rugby kit? Oh, when you're dressed for Lords?

I am actually in my partner's outfit today and she gets really mad if I don't tell everyone.

This is Mackenzie Carson. Yes. Yeah. Fellow World Cup winner.

She is also a little fashionista as well.

For me, you'll probably find me in a pair of jorts though, which isn't really in Lords attire.

So I relaxed the dress code a bit today. You'll be alright outside of the pavilion.

No dress code there.

I love anything that's a little bit different. A little bit, um, intriguing and probably a little bit out there.

What about retro fashion? If you could bring anything back from, you know, a decade yesteryear?

Oh, I do love, uh, Adidas, you know, like the, the zip-ups or like the classic Adidas trainers. Like, I think they're already back, but I would keep them.

I'd keep them there.

Yeah, have them back again.

Yeah.

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Your England coach John Mitchell. You aware of his cricket connection?

Yes, yes, his son Daryl. He's, um, we call him Mitch. Um, Mitch talks about it a lot actually. I think he finds his son very inspirational and learns a lot from him as well, and how he, you know, has at the peak of his performance. Um, you know, obviously John Mitchell was an incredible rugby player as well, and he's done a lot of amazing stuff in the coaching world. So he's, you know, got a whole family of high performers. So yeah, he's very, very proud of him. He raves about him all the time.

You get a sense that he's sort of got half an eye on like cricket scores when you're in the training camps.

I mean, if you've met John, you know, he's incredibly invested and probably quite tunnel vision on what he wants to achieve at that time. But he's definitely watching his son, like making sure that, you know, he's doing well and he's supporting him. And I actually just messaged him. I said, oh, I'm I'm at Lord's and some, some of the people I'm with just said how amazing your son is, and he just went, that's very kind of them.

His son did very well at the Test match at Trent Bridge and got another 100. He seems to like batting against England, I'll tell you that. And after the World Cup, when you reach such a high in your career, how do you sort of get yourselves back up for what comes next? Because the next internationals are September, is that right? Yeah, and that's Australia.

Yes, Australia, Canada, New Zealand at Allianz, and then we fly to Toronto and we play Canada, Canada, USA. So quite a lot of hard games in quite a short space of time.

Is it about sort of, you know, resetting goals?

Yeah, I think that's what's incredible about the Red Roses is that they are looking for perfection, which is a double-edged sword because it's not attainable. However, it can, you know, really drive you to be the best you can be. And we always think about— actually, we talk about, you know, sometimes you don't be afraid to break something that works to reinvent it. And that's what we're going through the process now is we are incredibly proud of ourselves as a team and for winning the World Cup. We worked very, very hard on it, but we also want to be the best team ever and That's not just as a team and as a squad or driven by John, that's driven by all of us individually. We all are battling to be the best players that we can be collectively and, you know, and healthy, healthy competition within the team. We're very fortunate we've got brilliant players in all positions, all battling it out, which, you know, it's a headache for Mitch for sure, but that's what we're striving for is to be not just win a World Cup, but to be one of the best teams in the world in any sport.

Has there been much crossover between yourselves, the Lionesses and the England team? Even you've done a shirt swap today, but do you, could you, I mean, is there time to kind of come across each other? You do sometimes bump into each other at different events, or are there formal coming together in any way to have learnings from each other?

Probably a mixture of all of them. We've definitely seen a fair bit of the Lionesses. You know, Chloe Kelly came to our game, so it was really cool to meet her. We met a lot of them at Spotty as well. You know, Lucy Bronze was there at our coming home event.

Ellie Kildun only just missed out, didn't she?

Sports Personality of the Year.

And absolute fair play to her because, like you say, rugby's not— women's rugby is growing. It's not hugely global yet, but we're hoping to take it there. And she did so well to get anywhere, you know, near it. So we're all very proud of her for that. But yeah, we, we do bump into other players, other sports, and I think women's sport is incredible because you're just all happy that you're all thriving. I think that's what you just really want the best for each other. And so whenever you meet anyone in the women's sporting world, I don't know, that's just my experience. I'm not a man, so I've never been in the male sporting world, but there's just so much happiness just to see each other and connect and say, hey, you're doing so well. And that's— yeah, I think that's a really special part of women's sport that maybe isn't seen or spoken about as much.

And how does rugby's pathway and development compare to how cricket has developed in terms of the professionalism? So where are you at right now? You will, as an England player, you have an RFU contract, don't you? How does it work?

So if you're international, realistically, if you are an international player, you can be contracted through your union. Um, but right now in the PWR, which is a great league, they're trying, you know, incredibly hard to make the league professional. But there's obviously steps we have to try and push through, audiences we need to try and get in the doors. Um, you would be probably only paid if you were an international or you were, you know, a very important club player. Other than that, most of our league in the domestic league, they are nurses, doctors, teachers, vets, like all sorts of different, you know, their coaches, they work in the communities, all different types of jobs. So they're still very much full-time, and, you know, I hope very soon that that changes because as our rugby game moves on and professionalizes, the demand will just become too high for those players. But I know there's people behind the scenes working so hard to make sure that we can and keep moving and pushing forward in the league. So yeah, we're very lucky that RFU support the Red Roses very well, one of the best in the world at looking after their women's teams. And you can see that it works through the investment because we're selling out stadiums now. And we just hope that other unions see that and, you know, look at it as something that they can mold and shape into something of their own and help support other women coming through in rugby and help giving them, you know, roles to really reach their dreams and invest in them.

And the World Cup win has helped, hasn't it? Given a sort of boost to what your contract value can be going forward. That's got to be part of it, hasn't it? You win things, you get rewarded.

Yeah, yeah, we went through our contract negotiations and yeah, there's definitely been an increase around that. So yeah, hopefully we can just keep pushing it forward and Our real goal is to try and close that gender gap. And I think that's the real goal of all women's sport, is to close the gender gap in sport. So yeah, I think we'll definitely keep, keep trying until we can make that hopefully smaller for the next generation coming through.

And do you get a sense that things are moving in the direction of— is there a plan even to try and make that, that base foundation, that triangle with professionalism in the domestic league? So in cricket now, it's a 5-minute bell that's coming around very quickly. In cricket now, you've got the England Central contracts and there's Tier 1 of domestic, where you've got 9 teams who are all fully professional domestic players now. Do you think rugby will get there in the next, I don't know how long a timeframe?

I really hope so, because that's incredible. And I think, you know, the girls that we work with day in and day out, or women, sorry, I use girls because I see them all the time, you know, that we work with who turn up every week. They might not get selected to play, but they, you know, without them we wouldn't train and we wouldn't function. Teams wouldn't win without the whole squad. That's what a team is for. And I hope that they, they do have the ability in the future to be full-time and, you know, reach their dreams as well, because I do really believe now that we're at a point where they definitely deserve it and we have the audiences coming in and it's just how can we increase that and, you know, take women's rugby to a whole new level.

Now, that top level where you have got the contract, maternity clauses are an important part of it, aren't they? Because how many babies have there been now in the England squad?

Oh, we're going to have hundreds.

What a beautiful development. How do they get supported then?

I mean, I'm not one of them, so I can't talk from their views, but from what I see, you know, they get a lot of care from the medical team. They train, you know, they have a training program right up until they're due, pretty much their due date. I'm pretty sure I saw Lark training like a few, like a week before she had to, had to, before she had a child, sorry. And yeah, I think then they get very much supported on the way back. And it's just amazing that not only they have the ability, you know, financially, and that's within their terms of the contract, but actually that they have the bravery to go and do it and show people that they can— you can have a child and you can be an elite athlete and you can have people support you. And I think they're just brilliant. All, every single, you know, every single pregnant lady in the women's rugby team.

I'd be here for hours if I named them all.

Yeah, I just think they're exceptional role models and yeah, hats off to them.

I don't know whether you saw images of the World Cup final here last Sunday when obviously the players come out with a mascot and England captain Nat Sciver-Brunt came out carrying her own baby Theo. It felt like quite, quite a moment.

I feel like that's every sportsperson's dream is to come out with, you know, your child and just stand there. I definitely think that's one of mine. To have, you know, your child see you in probably the pinnacle of your career. And yeah, it's very special. And we always have the little, little kids running around camp, and it just makes everyone so much happier because you have someone to just take you out of that zone of you're in rugby, you're trying to succeed, you're trying to be the best you can be. You just have this little kid running around being like, can you throw the ball with me?

And you're like, takes you, gives you a moment of air, just needs you, doesn't care how you performed on the pitch whatsoever. What about the past players in rugby? I'll ask you briefly because we had such a sort of an occasion here celebrating yesterday, former England players who really weren't heralded in their time. Has the RFU done much similar? Is there much awareness around the history of women's rugby amongst those who are, who are playing it?

Oh, I think it's vital to have the history shared with the players. I think potentially in the past it's not something that they focus on, but definitely through the World Cup, They had events where we had past, present Roses come in, talk to us, talk about their World Cup journey in '94.

I don't want to get that wrong, but I feel like Jill Burns will come and tell me off if I get it wrong.

But yeah, it's just an incredible story of how they've had nothing. They had no support and they created this whole World Cup basically off their own backs.

And parallels with cricket.

Yeah, I think it's vital we remember where we came from to where we are now. Without, without those trailblazers, like they truly are trailblazers, like we wouldn't, we wouldn't be stood here today. So I think in the World Cup we had a whole row of roses in central London which had everyone's red rose number on it, and we also in the linings of our World Cup jackets, we had every single red rose was in the lining of our jacket, which I'm not sure got shared too much, but yeah, it's there. So what, that's very safe in my house because I think it's very, very—

I was about to say, where do you Or your winner's medal?

The winner's medal is actually in my bedside drawer because I just like to check it's still there.

I like it, I like it.

It's nice and close.

Yeah. So it's been an absolute pleasure having you in the TMS box as our view from the boundary. The players are coming back out now. Are you going to watch, stay around and watch the rest of the day?

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah, definitely going to be out watching.

Good luck for when your season resumes in September. And she's very formal. Sarah Byrne, Red Rose World Cup winner, thanks for being our view from the boundary.

Thank you so much for having me.

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But it all started when he gave a homeless man $10,000. So is he a philanthropist reshaping capitalism?

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