What is it like to enter the Australian Ashes cauldron?

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from.

BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello, I'm Alison Mitchell and welcome to the TMS podcast. As the men's ashes fast approaches, I'm alongside former England Ashes batter David Milan and England World cup winner Ebony Rainford Brent to discuss just what this period is like for players who know that they'll be heading out down under and just how they deal with that pressure.

You're listening to the TMS podcast from.

BBC Radio 5 live.

Just around the corner. The elephant in the room. Everyone is acknowledging 21st of November is the start of the Ashes in Perth. David, you've gone on two Ashes tours, haven't you? 1718 and 2122, which was a very difficult one. That was Covid. Both of them, four nil defeats. But you did pretty well in 1718, didn't you? Averaging 42 with the pitch that. But the pressure is really just going to ramp up between now and the start of the series. What is this period like for players who know they'll be on the plane or believe they'll be on the plane? Hope they'll be on the plane, yeah.

Being a very exciting time. Yeah, not great memories for me personally. Well, from a team point of view, we got absolutely hammered. I think it's 8 out of 10 that we've we got destroyed by the Aussie, so. So not great memories for me from that personally. Obviously got a few runs, but yeah, look, I think this next bit is about understanding, you know, A bit what we spoke about earlier, the schedule, taking time off, understanding when they want to train, how much they want to train, what they want to put into place from an individual point of view. I know when I went over to the Ashes I had a good period where I studied the bowlers, asked questions from a lot of players that had been there and been successful about what to expect not only on the field but off the field, what sort of technique I needed, what type of shots would be more beneficial at the different grounds because all the grounds are different. You know, starting at Perth this time instead of Brisbane. Brisbane. Day one is a little bit slower, nibbles a little bit gets quicker as the game gets on and gets a bit more bouncy. Whereas Perth is going to be bouncy from day one. It's going to be really steep bounce and it's going to be something that England players haven't been used to. I know they're not doing some warm up games out there so that might affect them but just one.

Lilac Hill isn't it with the Lions?

That's right, yeah. Yeah. So they make having an inter squad game or something with the Lions. So that'd be interesting to see where they play that and which ground they use that on because they want to be as similar as they can to play Perth. But I think it's all about doing the homework now about understanding how they want to go about it, what they want to do from a technical point of view. Bowlers, what lengths do you want to bowl and putting that all into practice before they get on that plane.

Jacob Bethel having scored that incredible 100 in the first of his professional career, some saying, well that has catapulted him back into contention for the first test. I mean ebbs and David, is he, is he, I mean in the squad but he's in the 11. What's your take on just what that 100 has got ebbs?

I'll leave that to you.

It was a very good 50 over 100 I think. Look, coming in, coming off the the summer there was a lot of criticism. He hadn't quite performed, hadn't had enough cricket actually maybe the bigger argument and he wouldn't be dead set in my 11 for a test match series. It doesn't mean he's not gonna be in the squad. I think he can offer a lot and, and it feels like you look at the, the other batter you Ben Duckett runs are coming. Zach Crawley's back into flow. Jamie Smith has shown what he can do. Harry but you go down that lineup and you felt very confident in test format with everybody has kind of done the hard yards. I just feel for me that, you know, he's good to be in and around the squad. Whether he makes that starting 11 in an Australia starting lineup, I'm not sure he does for me just yet. But you'd want him around in the mix. Look, he's, he's clearly a talent. We're going to see him. If he stays fit, stays hungry, I have no doubt in the next 10 years he'll have a few ashes behind him. I'm not sure this is the one that I would be sort of putting in front and center for yet. I think he's got development to come. I think if he's called on and there's injuries, he'll be great, but he wouldn't be my mostly my starting 11.

I have to agree. I think if England go with Bethel F3 from the start, they've gone away from everything they've done over the last two or three years, building up to the Ashes, backing players, giving players the opportunities to fail and to learn and to get better at what they're doing. I think the, that the top seven will be pretty standard. I think it will be the same as what it's been for the last couple of years. I think the biggest questions they have at the moment of what their bowling attacks and who's fit, who's fit, who's the spinner, does Joffre, is Woody available?

And can I just say just about the Bethel situation. I feel most of the conjecture at the start of the season around, you know, will Bethel come into the 11 at the expense of Pope? And all that came from a Ben Stokes of misstep in a media conference where I think he said 11 when he meant coming back into the squad and it then sort of blew up. And I think perhaps if that never happened and it was just, well, Bethel will come straight back into the squad. Everyone would have gone, oh yeah, great. He's going to be around the squad and part of the, the setup. But it sort of ignited this whole what you're leaving out Ollie Pope and, and then, and Ben Stokes then, you know, took great pains to sort of correct it and, and say, no, that wasn't what. Well, I think he said it wasn't what he said, but I think it was what he actually said. But anyway, a big, a big sort of hoo ha then, then ensued and that probably could have all been avoided and it would feel quite, quite England like To take a player like him and have him in the squad because they like to have players exposed to the environment, don't they?

They do. And that doesn't mean he's not going to play a part in the Ashes. Whether he plays as a, as a batter that plays as a spinner and maybe at Perth where it's not historically going to turn, it might bounce a little bit. Loss of form. Players have three test matches and you're two nil down. They might decide they need to make a change for that fourth Test.

And the Australians even did that last season when they, you know, uncertainty at the top. They had Nathan McSweeney in for the Borda Gavaska Trophy and yet he didn't form over three matches. So Sam Constance comes in for the last two and England have done that a lot, haven't they? Made a change when they've, you know, got too deep in the series is.

All but gone well, especially long series. 5, 5 test match series. When he gets that third one, if you haven't performed as well as a team, you know, they're usually looking at something to do or to do something different to change the fortunes and it usually ends up being a bowler getting changed or a batter getting changed. And, and if, if Bethel keeps playing as he is, as he's, as he scored that 100 and if he keeps putting on performance in these T20s, there's no reason why he can't push for a SP in, in the 11 as the series goes on. I, but I think they'll be very settled with how they go about. It could be totally wrong, but I think they would go be very settled. I think they'd be very silly to have built for three years to suddenly change it before the biggest series they have.

And you're about to start talking about the bowling attack.

Yeah. Sorry, went a bit off topic there.

But I sort of pulled you back.

I know I felt that I got a bit sucked into that, but I think that's going to be the interesting thing is, you know, is Mark Wood going to be fit? I know he's trying to play last couple of games for, for Durham or at least one to prove his fitness, his shoulder.

I don't know if he's, I don't know if he's in contention, but shoulders out is everything I'm hearing is that.

He, that he won't make the plane. But that's not nothing, nothing confirmed at all yet.

But yeah, that'd be a shame for him. He's done. He's done exceptionally well over the last two years and he sort of changed that trend a bit that he couldn't bowl the kookabur ball and he couldn't be successful overseas. And he's actually been pretty good overseas in, in that period. So he's gone away and done the hard yards and try to prove that he was fit. So it is a massive shame for him if he's injured because he has been, you know, probably the leader of the attack since Sir Jimmy has retired and Broady as well. But yeah, look, I think the biggest question is if Ben Stokes is injured or if he gets injured in the series. If he plays as a batter, who's your all rounder? How does the balance of the team work? Who's the spinner going to be? Is Dawson going to be your spare spinner on the trip? Is he going to be the one that potentially plays at Perth where it doesn't turn and lengthens their batting order? Because at the end of the day, one of the things that Australia do really well, it's something that a lot of people talk about, but he doesn't get highlighted like that. They really kill the tail. So their bowlers will literally not pitch a ball up to the tail and the scoreboard goes nowhere. So you could be absolutely flying at 240 for, for three. Bang, bang. 260 for five and it's just all out for 280. They just absolutely kill the tail and, and that's how they dominate in Australia. And I'd be interested to see how, how England go about that because I think they've, they've definitely taken bits of that over the last couple of years. They've definitely used that short ball theory a lot and it's been really successful for them. So I'm excited for the series, especially if all the bowlers are fit. You know, I'd love to see Joffre and Woody at Perth. I'd love to see them flying Stokes as your third seamer with whoever the other. Well, yeah, probably Karst actually, because they're going to need the batting. So you have three quick Stokes as well. He's bowling quite quick again at the moment since his injuries. So four fastballs in Australia.

My nervousness though, because on paper it can sound amazing, right? You've got Joffre and Woody fit, Stokes back fit. You know, you start looking at it, you think this looks great.

Your ideal 11.

Your ideal 11. If it goes slightly wrong in terms of fitness, like Josh Chung, for example, bowled beautifully and was swinging at one Point, but then also had a horrific spell. He was sort of swinging around a bit. I think he will be a great bowler long term, but there starts to be a few holes there. Bashir, how much experience does he have in those conditions? And I think the Aussies target him. The Aussies target him, exactly. So it can quite quickly. If the injuries are sustained, we could be kind of going into less experience and then all of a sudden, you know, Gus Atkinson and you know, these guys who are less experienced are going to have to lead the attack and so that's my only nervous. I think batting will looking pretty solid. We just need batters to be fit, bowlers to be fit.

How significant is their significance to Sam Curran being recalled for this? I know it's a T20 series, but the fact that he apparently had this breakfast with Brendan McCullum where he had a bit of a chat and, and McCullum was quite honest and maybe brutally honest with him, telling him that, you know, you got off to a pretty fast start, you know, seven years, a lot of good came to you, but then your forms dropped off and that was why he wasn't picking him. But he has now, giving him a chance and he's back in the fold here. Could there be any significance for that for Sam Curran as regards Red Bull cricket? I mean, if, if a backup to Stokes is needed, how far off is that? Any realism?

Well, I think he's quite far off. I think it would be a great option if he was bowling well, if he'd gone away and picked up the pace, which he might have done that. They asked if he'd picked up a yard and he was bowling really well and, and playing well for Surrey. I think he'd be pushing himself forward for that. Once again, I think everything that England have done under Brendan McCullum has been so structured and so backing of the certain players. I can't see them making massive changes like that now. You know, I'd love to see that they have someone to back up Stokes because it has been highlighted when he's been injured and they've only playing three seamers and they're. They're missing a. An extra bowling option. It balances the team so big so they have to find the next Ben Stokes at the some point. Can some karam be it? It could potentially, but. But I don't think just yet, but he could potentially be and, and I think that's what England are going to have to search for. You look at South Africa over the last couple years since J Kallis retired. They really struggled to find the balance in their test team. I know they've done really well and won the World Test championship recently, but they've struggled for a few years trying to find the balance and I think that's the next thing for England. So if Sam Curran can impress Ben, Brendan McCullum and as we said earlier, this is such a big series for him, not only for T20 but for 50 over cricket for the balance of the team and for potentially future test cricket as well.

I think his white ball cricket has really kicked on in different ways. I think he. You're seeing him come up the order a little bit. So actually with runs he's become very valuable in white ball cricket, actually even.

I think the championship is averaging 50.

Yeah, he's doing very well. Yeah, his batting is coming on. I wouldn't say he's replacing anyone in the current England Test 11, but he's batting for himself, is kicked on. He's got more white schools. The moon. Moon ball. I don't know what he's calling it but you know, although that bowling in the. The white ball format is excellent, I just think that the needs for an Ashes, I don't think he will replace any of the current batting lineup. And he's bowling maybe vulnerable like you say, if he hasn't got that extra bit of pace, you know, bam.

Really as a squad player.

As a squad player.

But I mean. But he might can always get called up, can't you?

But he's the sort of player that if they back him and they want him in the squad, you know, they get him around the environment he may be. I just. And it's not that they're not thinking that way. I just think for me, I can see where his game is going at the moment. I'm really pleased to see him back here. It'd be a big headline if he was making that front line.

It's a bit left field as a chap, but the fact that he's in this team, it's a huge step for him to come back into the fold.

It is. But as Ebony said, his batting has improved so much over the last couple of years that it's actually given England so many more options. Because realistically in Test cricket, your fourth seamer, he doesn't have to bowl 25 overs at 145 clicks. All he has to do is bowl you 15, 16 overs. If you have a good spinner and you have three quicks and if someone like a Ben Stokes ends up playing for Another two years and someone like a Sam can really develop his game and really get as well as bat as well as he can and improve as much as he can with his batting. He's going to be a massive asset for England. The left arm seamer, you have Bashir, who's an offee, who would love a couple of footholds there. It just, it just over the, the course of the next 2, 3, 4 years when, when Ben Stokes decides to end up, if, if Sam can find his way into that test team as your fourth seamer that can bat top six, he'll be a massive asset for England.

And on the bowling front, Matthew Potts released from the white ball squad here to go and play for Durham. So that is again a very clear message to say we want you to get some Red Bull cricket under your belt before going out there.

Yeah, he's been absolutely fantastic when he's played for England, hasn't he? He's, he finds a way to get wickets he runs in all day and I think that's one of the things that England really like about him. He just doesn't give up. Whenever he looks like he's on his last legs, he finds another spell and he finds a way of keep coming back. And you know the old saying, he goes back to the. Well, he does that so often, not only for Durham but every time he plays for England. And I think that's great for a captain to have, especially if you go to tough conditions where things might not be going your way. To have someone that constantly runs in day in, day out for you, regardless of how his body's feeling, regardless of how everything's going, I think that's a great asset.

Sonny Baker, what was your take on? I mean it was a really tough start to international cricket, wasn't it, in the ODI or Leeds. But where do you see him And I guess you know how he's been managed through the ODI series. And he played that one and then Saqib Mahmoud came back, but again and Ash's place in a squad too early, I think.

Too early. Funny enough, I actually, my first year of club cricket when I played, came over in 2006 on my gap year, his old man opened the bowling and the team that I played for actually. Yeah, so that was, that's a good story. And then he finally got me out this year as well and he did give me a little smile as he walked past. I haven't heard from his old man yet. Maybe he hasn't got my number anymore.

But what Is it like facing him then?

So, actually, I faced him in the hundred a couple years ago. He played for the Southern Brave. He came in as a replacement and he. He didn't have the pace he had now. He still had the skills. He swung the ball away from me, which was his go to. He's a little bit floaty when he was fuller. But, you know, I faced him in Forde Cricket at the beginning of the year and he hit the bat really hard. He actually ran in and it came through really nice. Got this weird trajectory. It sort of keeps coming at you like. So when you think it's hard length, it just beats you another foot because.

He'S not so tall.

He's not tall?

Yeah, he's very short. And, you know, Josh tongue in the 100, played in the same game and Tongue felt a lot quicker than what Sonny did. Maybe that's just because of the height and, you know, you know, Sonny was probably bowling 86, 87, and Josh was coming up at 1991, so you could feel the difference in it. But, you know, he's skillful. He swung the ball both ways. He bowled really well. To good players, I think there's something for them to work with. I think there's, you know, it's not often you can get young kids coming in, being able to have the confidence to swing the ball both ways and bowl at high. High to late 80s, you know, I think that's a great talent. I think it would be a surprise if he's on that Ashes in the Ashes 15, I think. Good possibility he'd be in the Lions team. You know, they're going to have a good opportunity to take quite a big stock of fast bowlers with them, and it probably allows them, if there are injuries, to bring guys straight in.

Yeah, and that's so important, isn't it, Having that conditioning and having a squad that is in the right time zone, accustomed to conditions that can slot in when and if need be.

Yeah. My thought with him was welcome to international cricket because I watched obviously him in the 100 and there was, you know, some really good pace and skinny and everyone gets excited. And then, you know, the first game, well, we all know, you know, it didn't really pan out for him and he was. It was kind of attacked really, in the way he was taking to. Well, I would say actually that second spell, he came back later, he did actually show some heart, but the reality is he got dropped because in the interviewing, they said he wasn't dropped in the next game. Saqib's coming back in and that was the headline. But that third game when Saqib was resting, you would have thought he would have potentially come back in and they went to Overton. Whereas if you'd have torn it up on the first odi, I think they would have brought him back in. What, what it says to me is a bigger story, which I kind of like actually is they, they don't mind testing players at international level. I think there's this kind of, let's skip out the whole earn your yards on the county circuit. If we see talent, the Bethels, the Show ibs, the Sally Bakers, that's very evident, isn't it? Yes, very evident. Let's just chuck them in. And sometimes it works. You know, I'm thinking of the Josh Hull, maybe that's one that hasn't quite paid off. And sometimes it needs just a longer game plan. He's someone that they're gonna have to think about over a long period. And you also got to be careful. That was my just thought at the end of that is confidence wise. That would have been a hit. You go out, you could completely get exposed. Then you maybe miss the next game, think, oh, maybe I'll come back in. Then you don't. And then it could be just that sort of confidence. So he's gonna have to make sure that he's rock solid himself. They wrap him around and say, look, we see you for the future. There's just a bit of work to do.

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David, what is it like just being in Australia as an Ashes cricketer? For those for whom it might be Their first trip. I mean, for Brenda McCollum, it's new territory, isn't it? Being an England coach of a, of an Ashes team out there. Because, you know, I spend every winter out there with the, the Australian media covering the Test series. And I have to say the, the recent winter, the Border Gavaska trophy with India was the closest that I could equate the media hype to an Ashes. In fact, it almost actually felt more intense because Australia, India series have been closer and in fact India winning them. You know, recent tours as you know, have been much more one sided, but the, the level of attention of the media is just different level and sometimes a little bit mischievous as well. How have you found it? How would you describe it? What do these players need to be ready for?

It is tricky actually. Before the first one I went on, I remember sitting in a meeting and the squad was sitting there and Stuart Broad actually brought it up. I know all the Aussies love to hate Stuart and he'll be out there again commentating this year, so that'd be interesting to see how he goes. But yeah, I remember sitting in this meeting and I'd only played five or six tests then and I was over the moon to get picked for this Ashes. And he sat in this meeting and he was like, lads, just, just be aware. The media is going to come hard at you and everything you do is going to get scrutinized and if you go on night outs, you're going to get scrutinized and if you do this, this is going to happen and that's going to happen. I remember sitting there going, my word. Like it's going to sit in my room for the rest of this whole thing.

You can't have that siege mentality because you'll go crazy.

No, you can't. You have to get out. And Australia is such a great country. There's so many things to do and there's so many things to see and so many opportunities to go out and relax and to get away from the game of cricket and it's finding that balance. And I guess the second Ashes that I had out there, we had Covid and we were very confined to hotels, very confined to rules and everything that had to go on about it. And that became one of the hardest trips I've ever been in my life. Mentally destroyed not only me, but a lot of the players and coaching staff around as well. It was incredibly taxing on us as players. But you know, the, the guys going there now, they're going to have the freedom. They're not going to have these rules. I know they're probably going to have to watch what they do a little bit more, because I'm pretty sure the Aussie media will be waiting for them, as we would too, if it was the other way around. But, yeah, look, it's an exciting tour, it's a brilliant tour. There is a lot more that goes on and it's going to be a lot more tiring than a lot of these players think it's going to be. And I know Harry Brooks has come out publicly saying that this last Test series against India, this five Test series, it really got to him mentally. He was absolutely knackered after it. I know he had a really good series and that's what they're going to have to expect when they go to Australia. And I think that's actually been brilliant, that they've played a five test match series that's gone down to the wide. It's been really tough cricket with. There's been a lot of media. It's one of the biggest ones going around. India against England, same with it with the Ashes. So they've got a little bit of a taste of what they're going to get when, when they go to Australia. But look, Australia is a great country to go to if you do the right things and you keep your head out of trouble and you don't pour drinks on people and you don't. You don't do silly things like that and you can get that out of the media. I think it'll be a fantastic tour for them if they can manage all that media stuff off of it.

I mean, there's the one side of it which is the cricket media who is at the grounds. There is the other side which is the broad news media. And one thing which I know that the Indian players struggled with because they're simply not used to it. And it doesn't happen here in England either. It's that thing when you would have experienced it. I'm sure you step off the plane domestically, you know, flying city to city in Australia, it's a bit like getting on a bus, isn't it, Or a train. You just hop off the plane, you're straight out into the terminal, you grab your suitcase off the carousel whilst the TV news crews are surrounding you. And it's very normal for the TV news crews in Australia to doorstep their sports stars, you know, that the football teams travel all the way through and there'll be little media huddles in the airport, but sometimes that can, I've seen it happen, turn into sort of a bit of media chasing, you know, microphones under Virat Kohli's nose. He is not used to that at all. You know, he's used to having his media kept at arm's length and being very neatly managed. And it's a different beast.

I mean, simple things, obviously. I heard the clip of Brendan McCollum talking about his frustration that people think that goal that, you know, they, they just golf, have a few beers and it's all chill, you know, he was saying there's a lot more to it than that. But in my head I was thinking, players are going to be getting away, trying to get away, day or two out. All it takes is one social media post and lads are on a, you know, golf tour. You know, all those sort of.

They will be playing a lot of.

Although, did you hear, did you hear about the other day talking about why, you know, the benefits of playing golf and, you know, for him, that is part of his time when he can speak to players, you know, chat to them about what you're saying, David, about, you know, the man management side of Brendan McCollum, about Andrew Flintoff, how he goes about things as well. It's as much about having conversations with players, getting to know them.

But all I mean is it takes one loss of a test, like, let's say lose the first test. Oh, yeah, guys get away. Media goes, look at, you know, these guys are. And it can just swell. It can start from a small thing and then they're getting in. And actually the downtime that players need becomes the criticism in the media. And so I think it's. It's going to be having to keep it tight. And I don't know how you guys keep it tight, actually. I don't know if you don't read the media when you were out there or you soak it up and embrace it. I don't know how the players can manage, but small things like that will just ramp up.

Agree. I think they have to be really smart on social media. If you want to do something as a group, do it. If you want to go and play golf every day, do it, go. And advertising it is pretty pointless. I think keeping what you're doing as a group and as a team and what your preparation is to yourself, I think that's brilliant. I know there's the digital world of social media now where everyone wants to put out that they're playing on the best course in Australia and what have you, or they've got a private plane or whatever they're doing. It's 60. It's all great fun, like, but I think just sometimes just, just tone it down a little bit. Just be a bit smarter. Keep out of the media, keep your nose clean, let the cricket.

Did you read it? Did you read it when you were.

When I started, I did. It was new to me. It was, you know, I started quite late. When you play county cricket and until you're 28 years old, you get the odd negative thing, but generally it's just a crick info sort of highlight of the day and you can just. He scored 100. Well played. All roses and what have you. But, you know, when you start playing international cricket and things don't go your way, you start reading it and you don't do it to sort of boost your ego, you don't do it to sort of see if you've been written badly about you. But eventually it gets to you. No matter how you are in the world, no matter how many times you try and block it out, something always gets back to you. I remember having to have a chat with my old man at one point because he'd be messaging me going, who's this reporter? I'd be like, which one? And then he'd send me the article and I'd read the article. I'd be like, oh, I didn't want to read that. I specifically stayed off everything. So I had to have a chat with him at some point and say, look, just, you know, yeah, if you want to read it, fine. You know, I know I have to score runs. I know when I'm under pressure, I know If I score 3. Not thoughts. I'm probably due to get a bit of criticism in the media and that's part of the territory. We're all aware of it. It's never easy. It's never easy when you're the one in the, in the sort of crosshairs. You have a few sleepless nights and you just, just hope that that next score is getting closer and closer so that you can get, get that positive things being written about you again. But, you know, I actually always go back to someone like an Owen Morgan. Talk about the man management. He was so brilliant at shielding the media and shielding you from the media. So even if he got a sniff that you were under pressure, he would go and say something in the press that, that would back you. Whether he did or not, whether you were under pressure, whether you're going to get dropped two or three games later, he would Always say something that if it came to your attention that you'd seen an article that he was publicly backing you. And I remember him doing a toss once, and we're playing a game against Sri Lanka at the Rose bowl. And I got at the toss, actually, I can't remember who it was. Maybe Athens or someone asked a question about me. And Morgz just literally went blank. He shut it down on the spot. And I remember listening to the interview on while I was warming up, and I was like, that's brilliant. And ended up getting some runs that game. And I remember just like the thought that all he did was constantly shield us from the media and constantly take the brunt of it. And Brendan McCollum's done that fantastically well so far since he's been in charge. And if they can keep doing that, I think, you know, you can stop reading the stuff and you can be smart with. With the way you go about it.

And one thing I'll say as well, what the players will have to deal with, and you probably found it on your tour as well, is just the number of Australian media outlets that are present at a test match. And compared to when this team go out there, yes, TMS will be there. There'll be a friendly face on the outfield to do a radio interview. At the end of the day, who will be out there for television? We don't know on the English side, but then you've got ABC Radio, two other Australian coach commercial outlets, and two Australian TV networks. That's a lot of, quote, sort of foreign media slash sort of enemy fire, if you like to deal with and do all of that. So it's. It's just a different kind of cauldron, isn't it, the end of the day's play to face all of that?

It is. You know. You know, what I found the most intimidating was when you. You get called up to do an interview with abc Orever it was. And you've got. I don't even know who works with them, but say it's Matthew Hayden and Ponting and you, Michael Clark, whoever it is, the legends of the game guys that I looked up to when I was playing. And suddenly you've got these three blokes standing in front of you and they're giving you a grilling and they're asking you questions and. And you go, oh, they must think I'm absolutely rubbish at the moment. Playing averaging 25, playing for England in Test match cricket and Ashes when they were averaging 50 and getting dropped and. And you could just feel that it was very intimidating. You know, they're obviously extremely polite and they're very respectful and they treat you unbelievably well, but you can just get that feel when you're speaking to them. But I guess that's part of the Ashes is that you have the big guns on show and you have the big names that are around and that's brilliant for you as a player as well to be able to sort of be interviewed by these players and actually be able to ask questions for them afterwards. But yeah, it is quite intimidating when you see all these players around.

Big part of that then is to know, to be prepared to expect that's going to happen when you walk out to the middle because you can deal with anything if you sort of know what's ahead of you. But I can well imagine if you just walk out for a post match interview and you think you're used to, you know, just your one stand up with a, you know, friendly BBC journalist who, you know, hopefully we're friendly and then you know something with the somebody else you're familiar with. But yeah, then suddenly you're surrounded by. And I know the ABC very much do the group chat. At the end of the day it's not just a one on one, it is a stand around with three people to have a chat with and then there'll be another radio chat with three, three other people and they'll be, yeah, namespaces you're not familiar with and maybe a little bit intimidating.

The Australian broadcasters will have different style, you know, the British broadcasting, you know, obviously there's the pros, the cons, the criticism. But I feel that Australians just say things like how bad they think you are and they say it with real punch that it's the way they look at you.

You're like, this guy thinks I'm rubbish.

They know what's. And you kind of know and like you say they got all the ledgers. I think what England will have to, you know, I'm sure Danny Ruben and the media guys will be smart with who they send out as well end of day play all those sort of things you've got to cross usually someone who's done well. Well, yeah, hopefully someone who's done well and some, you know, because it is going to be coming at you in so many different ways and players are going to have to think about it from a spectators perspective. It is fun because, you know, it's, it's all in and spicy. And I was going to say what we saw with the India series, which has always actually been okay. Ish. And to see how that sort of started ramping up with spice towards the end of this summer makes you think, well, if this team are going to go with that sort of, that's going to get going to aggression, let's say more tests go to five days, everything's happening, it's going to be bubbling. There's no doubt it's going to be bubbling. So I'm looking forward to all of it.

Well, the first thing which got the Australian media's, and I'm talking about the sort of the TV news outlets in a way got the Australian media's backs up and fired up at the start of the Border Gavaska Trophy was India training behind closed doors at Perth. So putting up like a big black curtain, you know, literally blocking out the cameras, the media. And there's nothing that annoys journalists more than not having access. And I think from then on it was like, right, the touch paper's been lit and it just makes the news crews work harder to try and get your access. And I think that was, that was sort of the start of it, you know, got off on from India's perspective, like the wrong foot, you know, almost embrace the media and then they've got nothing to be annoyed at you for. And they're not, they can't come at you in the same way.

Yeah, to some extent. But I mean, I remember, I remember Melbourne in the last Ashes series. We were, we just, I think we were 2 nil down. We'd rocked up and we'd, you know, been talking about how we should be leaving balls and then we should be hitting balls and then we should be leaving balls and whatever it may be. And we went to Melbourne and the nets are sort of in this concrete sort of block and spectators can watch from the top gallery like and the, the camera crews are behind the net and then they're on top and they're looking down. You've got all the reporters, written media, everyone standing behind you. So everything you say in the nets gets heard. Every drill that you're doing gets watched, it gets scrutinized. And I think it was Hamid was doing these one legged drills and the media just jumped on that, especially the Aussie ones. He was batting on one leg on the front foot, then the back foot and he was probably done that for the last five, six, seven years, 10 years of his career, whatever he's doing. But they jumped on that and they really nailed him on that to the extent that he was almost too scared to go and do his drills again. So it's not easy when you're there and you feel like everyone's watching you. The private moments where you actually want to get better and you're actually trying to put yourself in a position of vulnerability where you actually want to get better and you want to push yourself and try something different and you're getting watched on and. And actually remember I was during the fourth Test, it was Covid we had. All the coaches were off and I think Silver it done. I remember chatting to Joe Root about my back lift and where I want my hands to be. And he was talking about where his hands were and what he feels comfortable. I remember walking out to bat and David Warner, the first thing he said was, watch his hands, lads. He's all over the shop here. And I was a bit like, what's that comment about? And he said it a couple of times and at the drinks break or lunch, I walked past him and said, what are you on about? And he's like, ah, I saw that on social media. I saw you and Joe talking about your hands and I don't miss a thing on always watching it. So he gave. Probably was. It probably was actually. So. So, yeah, so he picked that up and, and. And, yeah. So, yeah, it does become incredibly tough when you're trying to work on your game and people that you feel like you. I can understand why India did that, but I can understand why it rubs up the media, if that's what they're used to as well.

Yeah, the. The media is. Is just one part of it, isn't it? But, yeah, it's coping with the Australian bowling attack, which would be one thing I've actually just noticed. And Pat Cummins has given an update on his fitness, which is not much of an update, but it's one line and you can imagine that is making. Making quite big headlines. So he was at a cricket Australia event. What day are we today? It's Wednesday, isn't it? Yes. So this is Wednesday, Australian time, where he has said, I'd imagine I'd want to be bowling at a minimum a month out, maybe six weeks from the first Test. But then he goes on to say, but I've not thought that deeply about it yet. Still a bit of a wait and see. So it's not much of an update. But that. That one line has made a bit of a headline in terms of Cummins mapping out his injury return plan ahead of the Ashes this series. And, you know, when we talk About Ben Stokes fitness. Pat Cummins fitness is just as important, isn't it, because of his bowling ability, his batting very handy as well, but his leadership.

Yeah, he's the full package. I mean, he's in Test cricket. He's the best bowler I've ever faced. He's just relentless. So to have him fit just as the bowler is such a massive asset to Australia. We spoke about Potts earlier, about how he runs in Cummins runs in all day, like his pace never drops. He sniffs a moment, he goes up a gear. He's relentless with his lines and lengths. He bowls you a bouncer every single over. So to have him and to have him not fully fit or have him sort of undercooked going into Test series will be massive for England, I think. I think that's a massive thing for England, not great for Australia. I know their Big Three have hardly played as much cricket as what they'd have liked together in Test cricket. They've had a lot of injuries over the last couple years. Hazelwood's missed quite a few of the Ashes series that I've played in, or the two that I was part of.

The bowling and hasn't done badly when it's.

Yeah, well. Or our batting hasn't been very good either way. So. Yeah, so I think all the Aussie bowls are lining up for us a couple of years ago, so, you know, hopefully that's changed. But, yeah, look, he's a big thing and his leadership over the last couple of years after that, everything that happened with the previous regime, how well he's taken that on, he's created a fantastic team ethos and culture for the Aussie team. You know, they're very more engaging. They're. The way they play the cricket seems to be a much better. I don't know what the word I'm looking for is, but it's at a much better level on the field. It seems like they're. They're willing to open up to opposition a bit as well. So, you know, it's obviously molded in the way he is as a bloke, which comes across as a fantastic bloke when you meet him, so. But he's a massive asset for them from that point of view. If he's not fit, does that throw their plans into a bit of turmoil with who's going to captain? Is he going to captain for one game? Two games? Steve Smith? Yeah. So you'll probably come in and captain that. Is he different to what someone like a Cummins is on the field? And will that change if Cummins only available for the third test, who plays instead of Cummings? Do they have Scott Boland? But then, you know, they lose Cummins batting at 7 or 8 wherever he's been batting. So yeah, it throws a few spanners in the works for them as well.

One of the things that you always felt actually is that their bowlers were high quality but slightly aging in the sense of just experience. The Nathan Lyons, these guys have been around a long time and one of the things I was thinking ahead of time, how fit will they be coming into the Ashes and you know, hopefully, you know, if Pat Cummings is fit, but if he's not, it's a massive hole and then there's many players underneath who haven't had as much exposure, so they'll need the Bolands and those guys to be able to hold it up. But yeah, in terms of runs, I mean just looking at the top, Usman Khawaja, I mean experience, but always been under a bit of pressure. They've got Sam Constance as well. So look, it's going to be fickle and if you've got Archer charging in at 90 plus miles an hour with pace and bounce, it'll be a real threat. And if they can get in, that will be a weakness that Australia don't normally like to concede that they have, but they will. So it'll be an exciting opportunity for England to make the most.

Yeah, I have a feeling that in the lead up to that first test match there could be again a bit of a sort of bat off. With a lot of Aussie media focus on the early rounds of Sheffield Shield, who is performing. I mean that's how they almost had a bat off really, in a India a Australia a match before the border Gavaska Trophy. And that was why Nathan McSweeney, he wasn't even an opener but he got his opportunity at the top. That didn't work out. Sam Constas comes in, plays unbelievably like has this crazy debut innings but then tails off and had a tough time.

Quick question for you because you spend a lot of time both here and do the Australian media protect their own or do they get in at them? So what I mean is, let's say there's the weakness at the top of the order. Are they going to be also chipping away so that the write ups are going to make the, the local press feel like there's a problem or will they actually support and it'll be all about taking down the English with the Aussie media.

Well, there will be a lot of focus on taking down the English, I'm sure. But I do think as well the Aussie media will do go hard on their own when it is merited, if somebody is underperforming or if the Australians may behave badly on the pitch or something like that. But I don't think it will be completely easy for them. But there is such a big focus on the England team in and Ashes. But certainly whoever comes in will have an intense spotlight on them because the Aussie media will want them to be performing and, and performing well. You got Marus Lane on the outer now, actually. I mean, he'll be trying to fight his way to get back in and then you think, well, where does he go? Because at the moment they've got Cameron Green at 3 because they desperately want him in their team but he's not yet able to bowl. There's a lot of kind of what if still for them.

There are they. They sort of feel where England have been the last couple of Australian Ashes series where everyone's a bit unsure what the England batting lineup is going to be in Australia feel like they're in that boat as well. Cam Green's about a three. If he's bowling again, he's not going to be batting at three. There's no way he's bowling 15 to 20 overs. That means he's probably going to move back to five or six or seven. That means someone else is going to miss out with us. Webster is going to miss out. That means they're going to have to find a number three plus an opening batter. Does that mean Marness comes back in? I know Kawaja probably hasn't been playing as well as he is, but if you're going to drop one of your mainstays over the last couple of years as your opening batter, then you're looking at two new opening batters. So I think they're going to take the safe option. I think it will be Manus will come back in at three. I think Cam Green will go back five or six or seven. Khawaja will open and they'll find one player to fill that gap.

My thanks to Ebony and David. Well, that is it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so that you never missed miss an episode, including the latest no Balls with Alex Hartley and Kate Cross. And you can keep up to date with all things cricket by following bbctms on X and bccricket on Instagram. Thank you for listening and we'll speak to you next time.

Welcome to the brand new podcast series rugby league top 10 with me, Mark Chapman. It's where John Wilkin, Brian Noble and Jamie Peacock will discuss, debate and argue over lists of the best players, games, finals, iconic and plenty of other categories that will no doubt leave you screaming at your device. The most entertaining parts of our sport are these. The jeopardy, the moments. He made Rugby Lee look cool.

Yeah.

I mean, that's a difficult thing to do.

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