What next for England's Men?

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I'm Daniel Aucross. Alongside me is Deep Dasgupta and Alistair Cooke, and we're going to have a little chat about Harry Brooke. And we need to talk about Harry. Because with the news that Ben Stokes has retired from international cricket, um, with immediate effect, there is a vacancy as captain of England. Harry Brook is currently the captain of two white ball sides, the T20 side, the 50-over side. Of course, uh, Brendan McCullum is still the coach, and there's no indication at the moment that Brendan McCullum won't be coach when England play a 3-test series against Pakistan, all of which of course you can hear here on the BBC, uh, but that'll be in August. So there's a little bit of hiatus, is about 7 weeks or so before that series gets underway. Alastair, your best guess, is Harry Brook going to be England's new Test captain?

Uh, I, I think it's up in the air, and I don't want to just sit on the fence, but what is strange, I suppose, at the minute we've had nothing from the ECB hierarchy about any confirmation about anything.

I suppose they would argue that they've only just found out.

Yeah, they just have found out, um, a couple of days. But over the last 2 months, 2 weeks, we've heard absolutely zero, really, apart from a very, very, um, I'm going to say tele— Telegraph's not the right word— managed 2 interviews from Brendan McCullum and Rob Key. That's the only thing we've heard about any situation. So really, until there is some clarification from the head of the ECB about they're going to keep McCullum as coach or not keep McCullum as coach, Rob Key, what his role is, until that comes, I, I, I think it's really, really hard to, to talk about Harry Brook and him being a captain, because whoever is then in the role, they are going to have to make that decision. And you don't pick the captain and pick the coach. He goes, you know, I think you got to start with, you know, you start with Thompson and Gould at the top. They staying, is everything going from there? They— and they're happy, they're happy with Rob Keeley, they're happy with Rob Keeley, is Rob Keeley happy? Friend of McCullum. And then the coach and McKee, really, they're running the side, then get to pick the next captain. So you're not going to, you're not going to get me to— I can't really do it because there's so much uncertainty out there and we haven't, we haven't even heard anything ECB. I know Stefan Gemmert been walking around trying to find out a bit, but there's nothing. So it's quite hard to really know what they're thinking, whether they're thinking, no, this stability, we'll just keep what we've got. It's been a really bad couple of weeks, the England cricket team, and more, more change won't be good. But when you don't hear anything— but I think it's, you know, there's no point in saying, oh, Harry Brook, could Harry Brook captain? I think he could. But the next few days here as I said at the beginning of the show, I know you weren't here for that bit, um, was the fact that, um, sorry, that's a dig for the podcast. Dan turned up late for the T20 game. I apologize.

Um, the, um, where is this bus I'm gonna throw under?

Was, um, you know, this, this was— I would have been, you know, you don't— playing for England isn't just, you know, there's no meaningless games, but actually it would be a great— it was a great 10-day, 10 games playing India. Great support, great— we're going around the country and seeing, you know, hopefully play, see the Indian superstars and a really good, you know, really good brand of cricket. Actually, these next 10 games of ODI cricket were really important for— I'm sorry, white ball cricket— really important for this England cricket team and I think the leadership group.

Uh, Deep, were you at all surprised that when Stokes didn't captain at the Oval, it wasn't Harry Brook, the vice-captain, who stepped in? Because when he has been missing And he has quite frequently because he was forever missing at least, you know, one game of a series. Ollie Pope stepped in for him on a number of occasions. Ollie Pope was the vice-captain when Stokes wasn't able to captain. Ollie Pope captained. So were you surprised that it wasn't Harry Brook at the Oval and suddenly it was Joe Root?

Yeah, that just tells me that obviously this, this call of, of retirement was just out of the blue for everyone. I don't think even ECB was ready for it, otherwise they would have had a succession plan or something on those lines. And then Harry Brook would have, uh, led the side in his absence in that second Test match against New Zealand. So obviously it just taken everyone by surprise, and that just, that just puts the, the spanner in the wheel, isn't it? But for me, I see, I, I, I do understand where, why everyone's saying maybe he's not ready as yet and all, but then if I'm looking at the England Test side, anyone else is, and especially Joe Root, I think I think it's going backwards a little. I do understand when Cookie says, okay, we don't know who, you know, the coach might be there, not there, or maybe Rob Key might be there, not there in a couple of months' time. But just keeping everything as is right now, the same as in Rob Key there and McCullum there, then I think for me it would be Harry Brook to continue and take the team forward. I think he's always— I mean, he's the poster boy for so-called Bazball cricket. So just to continue with the same format or template, I think he would be the guy to take this team forward. I do understand when we were speaking a while ago about him then being three-format captain, would that put a lot of pressure?

Yes, it would.

In a situation like this where you've just finished a Test match, within 3 days you're playing a T20 and you're leading both the formats, or rather 2 days, it's tough. But But then if I have to choose, I'd say, you know what, Harry Brook, you continue with Test matches, maybe fine. And I'm sure there are enough players to take up the T20 captaincy. And how I look at it is Test match and ODI are very similar in terms of the tempo. Now you— especially how England plays Test match cricket. And then T20, I believe you can look at somebody else.

Bethel, for example.

Yeah, could be Bethel, could be Phil Salt. Could be, I don't know, uh, there are quite a few options that you have in T20 cricket. And then let Harry Brook kind of focus on one day because that's an important format for the next year or so with the South Africa World Cup, uh, end of '27, and then obviously Ashes after that. So focus on 50 overs and test match with one captain, and then T20, let somebody else do it, and Harry Brook can come in and enjoy his T20 cricket rather than, you know, get again, uh, get the whole pressure of leading another format.

Okay, but you see, I'm, I'm a cynical man and I'm quite skeptical about certain things. And one of the things I'm skeptical about is that Brendan McCullum and Rob Key are going to be in place come August.

You think they are?

No, not necessarily. I don't know. I have no reason for knowing one way or the other. But there is— I think there has been a massive amount of turmoil taken place in the last few weeks. Uh, now it might be that that is all about Ben Stokes and Ben Stokes having burnout basically and having run his race. It could be as simple as that. That could be the most obvious explanation. But there's a lot of anger out there amongst supporters. There's increasing amounts of irritation with the current leadership because when sides go to Australia and play against what felt like a beatable Australian side but play so poorly for 2 and a half tests and only turn up for the second half of the series. Then you look at the people who have arranged that tour, and that would be the director of cricket. And you look at the coaches, and then you look at the players, and you think, have any of these players got any better? And then you start to blame the coaches for that, don't you? And when you've got this kind of a turmoil, this makes me wonder whether the ECB feel that they can select a captain yet, because they don't actually know who is going to be their coach and indeed who might be their director of cricket. Now I'm not saying— I've heard nothing to suggest that we're going to hear about resignations or sackings, but often it doesn't just happen that it's the captain that goes after a situation that has been developing over the last 6 months.

I think where we are in English cricket— I was at a dinner last night with Phil Mustard, and I was on— I did a bit of Q&A with Darren Gough, and when there's a bit of two-way. When we asked them a few questions, how happy you were, there was some— there are some really disgruntled England fans.

Disgruntled with the management?

Well, just disgruntled of what they've been seeing on the pitch. So, you know, that's a combination between the players, the management over the last year or so. And England, we've always been incredibly lucky. When I played, when everyone played, you know how much support we you've always had, and they backed you. Like, the Barmy Army obviously started really when England were losing, and they were still chanting, 'Manny Hamlin,' things. But this is the first time I've really felt this, like, wave of people being really upset about what they've seen.

Well, Harry Brook's innings, I think, caused people a very visceral reaction. His 21 in 9 balls— like, there's a lot of people who actually saw that, rightly or wrongly.

Yeah.

As, as a disrespect to Test cricket, as a, as a lack of respect for the game that he was playing in at the time.

I think it's quite harsh just to put everything on Harry Brook.

Absolutely.

And, and I don't think it's the just Harry Brook that I was getting this anger from. I think it's in general. I think the overall package of every little bit which hasn't gone right, they feel a bit flippant. Well, I, I don't know. I just think there's like the They feel— I think the fans feel as if this has got like gone on too long now. The same mistake's been happening over and over again. And in general, you will say probably when the pressure has come on, if you're looking at every isolated incident where the game is in the balance— and Ben Stokes did mention this at the end of Australia, that every time the game was in the balance, they didn't find a way, or the opposition found a way of winning that, that moment. And, um, but this is the first time I've ever felt this there. So if, if, if we get to August and it's the same, everything, nothing has changed in terms of the management, in terms of the leadership groups. And remember, they had not many, not many leadership groups survive an Ashes away thumping. Um, certainly when we, when we lost 5-0.

And the one little Joe Roots did, didn't it, in, in 20—

um, that was the one Is that the COVID one? Which is the one which didn't count? Which is the one that you're all thinking?

Well, that was, that was 2021. But, but 2017 was under Joe, wasn't it?

And Chris Silverwood. Yeah. No, no, Trevor Bayliss.

Trevor Bayliss.

So he kind of went for a bit. Not often it happens that, that it stays the same. So I, I, it is, this is why again now we're gonna, this is why I'm going back to this White Ball Series. If England don't beat India in both white ball series, then the momentum and the, the call for this leadership group will get more and more.

And once you—

that, once that ball starts rolling—

but this is the best team in the world. It doesn't matter.

But it does. But that doesn't matter because, you know, it does not matter unfortunately, because then you start going, well, they lost to New Zealand, they lost here, they lost there. You know, it's really hard.

That's why—

so I, I'm, I'm saying I don't know if ECB are waiting for this this. I, I don't know, but it is a mess. It's the talent in this country is, is better than what we're seeing on the England stage, certainly in red ball cricket. I know they're ranked highly in the T20 cricket and got to semi-finals, but what we're translating out there—

well, just quickly, I, I think it's the ball's in ECB's court to figure out whether— because this is what you're going to get from this combination. McCullum and Rob Key.

Yeah.

Now I think the call that ECB needs to make is, do they go on this path or they want a different path? I think that's the most important call. And something that Cookie was saying earlier on is, once you've decided that, then you get the right people. If you want this, I mean, the way so-called baseball cricket, then I guess you go on and then you find the right captain and then maybe refine. I think where the anger is, and from the outside I mean, because I follow and support English cricket as well, is it hasn't evolved. Bazball cricket, it's the same thing where we saw in '21, '22, and same in '25, '26. Last summer I thought against India we saw maybe a little tweak in the bats. Well, I was like, okay, now maybe this is the new version of it where, you know, you're still going hard at the bowlers and you're playing freely, but in crucial moments in the game, you are resilient as well.

You played a bumrah.

Exactly.

So I thought last summer, I thought, I, I thought a better version of Bazball cricket, but then it's back to that again in Australia. Now home in New Zealand.

Yeah, except the Oval bit when they were 30 runs over. Well, 5 wickets left.

Yeah, I mean, look, I think this— I've thought about that Oval test a lot. You have to remember that England were missing a batter in each innings because Chris Woakes couldn't bat in either. And I know they got themselves to a very good position, but they very nearly hunted down 370 and he didn't score the runs. So, and at the— on that last day, which was magical, Mohammad Siraj, you've got to give credit to your opponent. And also, you know, a lot of players are absolutely dead on their feet. Jamie Smith, who had started the summer so well with the bat, by the end of it could barely move his feet. He'd never— no one had ever kept wicket for so many balls in a series at England in 60 years. They've gone toe-to-toe with arguably the best team in the world. They would— it not— were it not for a dislocated shoulder, would almost certainly have won it 3-1. They had played more intelligently, I thought. I mean, the example of Bumrah was that they just played his spells out. They didn't go after him. And we were talking about Bazball with brains. I don't know what happened between the end of the India series and then going off to New Zealand for a white ball series, and then having no prep whatsoever and larking about for 2.5 matches against Australia. Because actually, after that, if you crunch the numbers from when England were 170 for 8 at Adelaide in their first innings, they scored as many runs for fewer wickets as Australia did in the rest of the series. The only problem was that their 2 practice matches have been Test matches. So, you know, we kept on seeing signs of it In this series, I just thought something so bizarre happened on that fourth night. And you can argue the toss about whether it, you know, it made sense to try and knock some runs off the top of the chase.

Did it?

I mean, once you've actually got New Zealand down to 2 and a half fit seamers, what might have been a good idea would be to play a bit like Darrell Mitchell.

Yeah. Do you think, do you think they, they will put all that on the emotional impact of losing their captain.

They might do, I guess. Well, you tell me. I mean, you would have been in—

well, yeah, I mean, you saw Jacob Bethell's face in that video when Ben was announcing that he wasn't going to carry on playing and being a captain for England. And he was— he's almost like white, wasn't he? He was like into the colored rainbow. His jaw was like staring at Ben. And remember, a lot of those guys, the only captain they've had is has been Ben Stokes. So I'm sure that definitely had an impact, but that's when you kind of do need, do need your other leaders in the group to, to reassess and stuff. So it has been, it's been difficult, it's been a difficult couple of weeks from the moment they won at Lord's and that, that night and the handling of that situation has caused, you know, the mess that they're in. And I, I just want some, I want some clarity now. I want I want someone from the ECB, whether they're waiting for these, waiting for the T20 Women's World Cup, not to over— so not to overshadow that, you know, tactically, or something like that. Or they are using this week, they're using that as an excuse, and then they're going around and they're chatting to everyone going, right, what, you know, anyone on the board or the committee or whatever, I don't know how it works, saying, right, you both reckon that they might announce a captain for the Pakistan series and just hold on to the bigger announcement for the end of the summer? I've got no—

well, that would then be Root again, would it, do you think?

I don't know.

I mean, as a holding role.

Yeah, I mean, maybe, maybe just one-off Test match, or one of— rather, one of Test series, and then maybe hold off, uh, all these major decisions for the end of the summer once the season gets on.

Well, I just— I guess in a way they don't need to for that reason. Is it because it is 7 weeks away? They sort of can, as you say, they can wait for the end of the Women's T20 World Cup, they can wait for this part to end. They can wait for the 100 to start. It's a, it's a sort of place in which, you know, they might be able then to have a bit of time to breathe and consult and whatnot. Uh, but about Harry Brook himself, because he's obviously the front runner, um, no one wants to go back to Joe Root full-time, not least of all Joe Root, I'm sure, who just doesn't want to have to do that job again. And then you are left with somebody from outside the team Or it seems to me, and then you tell me if I'm wrong, it's Brook or Bethel. And Bethel's very young. I mean, Bethel is basically Graeme Smith's age when he took over South Africa and was brilliant. But he's a very different kind of character, Bethel, isn't he, from Graeme Smith, who was quite sort of alpha male, big presence, you know, old before his time.

How was Mike Brearley? Is he, is he around?

Is he non-playing captain? Probably, probably, which he almost was while he was playing, you would argue.

How What about someone like Ben Duckett?

Yeah, I think the one thing which we, we kind of get a little bit obsessed with, say, oh, he's not captain material, all that stuff. When Ben Stokes was announced as captain, I don't think anybody would just say—

that's right, we all thought it was crazy.

We did think it was crazy. We thought— not crazy, they said, oh, this is a bit of a gamble. We obviously— then, you know, Rob Key, Brendan McCullum is a And, and the initial English reaction is that of a bit of the worst-case scenario. Yeah, oh, we've— we'll overload Ben Stokes. He can't— you know, all-rounders never make good captains. And he surprised us all with his captaincy for a lot of it, how his, uh, you know, his empathy for the players, how he got the best out of players, certainly for the first 2 years of his, of his captaincy, and really, really changed, really changed the way the team played. So yeah, why Ben Ducky never got any— had done any captaincy— it's not like he— people can change, people can step up, people can improve as leaders as well. So, you know, I genuinely don't know which way they'll go. Harry Brook, if he got the job, I think he would tactically, just from talking to the players, I think he is very good on the cricket side. The slight issue with England captaincy is, is not just the on-field and the, the cricket relationship as well. It's not just the day before the game talking about the side. You get thrown into a little bit more of a, a tough situations, not politics-based, but there is such more other stuff which gets involved in as well. And I don't know how well Harry would cope with that. Maybe he would cope fine. Maybe I'm looking— giving myself too much credit for myself doing that kind of role. But I don't know. But that would be my slight worry about.

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I don't think people have got a problem with his, uh, tactical acumen. I mean, he's been a very exciting one-day captain to watch, actually. He's put some funky fields in, he's very imaginative. He saw just in the last over we've had in this game here that he was thinking about, you know, trying to make sure that Shivam Dubey didn't get off strike. And he's prepared to do things that others won't. I've seen him deploy leg slips and all sorts in 50-over cricket. And I think he probably thinks in cricket. I guess what you were alluding to just before I broke off there is that all the sort of ambassadorial roles and all the sorts of— I guess you would have had occasions when players have to be disciplined, uh, when things happen, because you cannot control the 15 to 20 to 25 people. If he's captain of white ball as well, he's got an enormous squad of players who look up to him as captain. Now, he was the man who was punched outside the nightclub in New Zealand, so I mean, is that an issue?

I, I, I think you'd— I would have thought he'd have learned a great deal about that, that incident. And you can never just tarnish one person, one, one event forever and say we can't captain because of that one event. You take your punishment, you hope you learn from— that's when you're then taking the judgment of the, you know, the Rob Key, Brendan McCullum, and thinking, how has he dealt with that? Has he improved? Has he— in the— the statesmanship about the the captaincy is, is it may be an issue. I, to me, it's Cam McCullum and Keith Brook captain together. Would we see a bit of a change in how England play? Um, and but it's— that is the problem, is that whoever coaches as well, is there is a rebuild of that England team because of the player which is now missing, because you're losing two players at once. Yeah, missing a player who balances the side. And you know, someone like Bashir, for example, I don't think you could play him as a, as a one spinner and the four seamers which you require in, in England. It just doesn't quite— I don't know how it fits unless you're picking an Overton, a Sam Curran as two of your spinners, seamers as well, to lengthen the bat. And that doesn't quite— so there's a lot of things which need— and there's a lot of things, um, to do to get this side back there. What Deep said, it definitely hit home with me and definitely right, is whatever decision they make, it's got to be to look forward and to build. Start, start from where they are, which is 7th in the World Test Championship, got lost to New Zealand at home to a third string bowling attack with 2 and a half bowlers. That's where the England cricket team is, the test team is at the moment.

Where do you get forward from And it is their first loss of a series of 3 or more in 14 years, so it sort of seems to hurt that much more.

Yes, but then also you see quite a few young players coming through as well. If you look at this England Test side again from the outside, there are new players coming in. So if you really need to change your course, this would be the right time. Whether you want to continue going that way or you want to change it and and be a little more traditional in how you approach Test match cricket, maybe this would be the right time to do it. Uh, because like, I mean, there are quite a few new players there, uh, so this would be it. That's one. But secondly, again, uh, talking about Harry Brook and his maybe off-the-field issues, just reminds me a little bit of, of Ricky Ponting, how he was in the first few years when he started playing international cricket, and he turns out to be one of the greatest captains that we've seen.

Absolutely.

So you never know how, how people react to responsibility. So maybe he could be one of them. I don't know him personally, so I wouldn't, I wouldn't really know. But then you never know, maybe he will change, maybe he, he would end up becoming that. Because again, like you said, his captaincy method is so much like Ben Stokes, who I thought was absolutely brilliant. He always thought outside the box. Harry Brook's got a bit of that as well. So yeah, I mean, I think he's got all of that on the field, but off the field is a big question because end of the day, captain, uh, of the cricketing side of any nation, you— it's a lot more than just being a good cricketer. It's— I mean, like Cookie said, there's so much else that, that people look up to you. Yeah, you're representing a country, so to say, not just those 11 guys or 14 guys, it's just the whole country, especially when you're touring abroad. So I think that's something that I guess I mean, people would have to take a call on that.

Well, we've had some funky ideas, and I, I'll read these out and then I'll give you a couple of mine. A few have been getting in touch about the captaincy. Graham in North Wales, he says, we need a Brearley type, but I'm not sure there's one out there. I'm not sure, but how about Hasib Ameed? He's captain the county champions Nottinghamshire. Um, this is no disrespect to Emilio Gay, but his place in the side is not absolutely nailed on, and an opening batter who's had some experience of Test cricket. And if you wanted, if you wanted to have a slight change of approach, you'd imagine Hasib Hamid probably not quite so gung-ho from what I've seen of the way he plays and the way Nottingham should play. Uh, Paul has said, how about Joss Butler just for the next series at wicketkeeper and batting at 7? Say what, Joss Butler did captain the Test team?

I think we can ignore that one. I think that's not Well, I mean, I guess what he's saying is he's allowed to have his opinion.

I'm not going to ignore him. I'm just going to— what I'm going to do is I'm going to say I'll ignore it. What he's done is, if not Joss Butler, but there's a category of player here, namely an experienced player who's been part of the England setup, that is to come in and hold the reins for the end of the summer.

That is a really good point. That's something that we as, uh, so the England team don't often go back. You kind of get discarded and you don't, and you know, then you are, oh, he wasn't good enough. And that kind of people allowed to improve method, you know, who, who caused England all kinds of trouble in the Ashes? Michael Nysa, 35 years old. Scotty Boland, he, he made his debut— I, I, I don't know this off my back, he definitely made his— he was definitely plus 30-odd when he made his debut and hanging around now, not just hanging around, but 36 7-year-old, so he'd been brilliant. So I, I actually understand his point. I don't think Butler's the man, but there's absolutely no reason why actually building that side a bit of experience couldn't be a bad thing.

Yeah, but again, if you're getting somebody from the outside and not part of the Test setup, I don't know how much of pressure would that person or that individual would be. And if you're kind of building a team around a new captain who's making a comeback I don't know, unless there's a complete change of course, you get a new captain, or rather a new coach who has a different approach and that suits. I think a lot of it kind of filters down to the captain from the top in terms of how, how you want to approach Test match cricket. I think a lot would depend on that.

These things have happened in the past. Remember when Lee Germon, the New Zealand—

but he was only there for a couple of series, he didn't last long. I think I still remember he came in as a captain, he made his debut in India, but then I think he only played for a season or two.

No, another one of recent thing was Tim Payne, kind of. I know he captained a bit longer, but actually he came in for that prime straight after the Sandpaper Gate. Sorry, what, what gate was— you know, he came in as a real safe pair of hands and actually stayed around longer than I think the person that they expected him to. So you It's definitely been done.

Um, Henry says keep Brook as vice captain and give it to Ollie Robinson. Not the craziest idea. He's a leader, and Stokes wasn't without his injuries. Um, it's a very good point. Ollie Robinson is captain of Sussex. I'm looking around at county captains, for example, who have played for England. So yeah, they might be out of the immediate setup, but they're not unaware of the setup. So The ones that spring to mind are Hassib Amin, Ollie Robinson— good suggestion, Henry— and Rory Burns, who captained Surrey to 4 titles. Um, I mean, those are names from outside, and the names from inside I think we probably covered. Uh, but again, I just don't— I don't quite know how this is going to fit together until we know for sure that the coach and the DOC are who they are.

And that's why it's This is why at the minute it kind of shows the mess that is in, because there is all this uncertainty and all this, um, speculation about what, what's going to happen.

Well, do you remember when Root, when Root stood down, we got to the start of a season and we didn't have a DOC, I don't think. Did we have a selector? No, we didn't have a coach and we didn't have a captain.

Yeah.

And the season was about to start. So England has found itself in these nadirs before.

We have got—

and it was one of the best seasons they ever had.

We We have had— we've got a DSA at the minute, we have got a coach at the minute.

Yeah, we do at the moment, exactly. But of course there's the suspicion that events, dear boy, are going to play out over the course of the next few weeks, that interviews will be given, because there's still a very raw wound here deep, isn't there? I mean, I've seen fans literally in tears at Trent Bridge.

Well, yeah, I mean, back in India, if you think about it, uh, we've lost 2 home series against South Africa, before that against New Zealand. Um, yeah, I mean, so post last summer here in England, India's lost home series, couple of— 2 out of 3. So I, I can feel it, I understand, uh, where all this is coming from. And obviously questions will be asked because I think back in India questions been asked of Gautam Gambhir, the Test coach, because obviously in one-day cricket, or rather white-ball cricket, India has done well. Last few years, and especially under him. But then again, Test matches is a big question mark because the other important thing is that is the format that everyone needs to focus on. Because white ball cricket, you're going to keep producing players. Every country is going to keep producing white ball players because that's what kids growing up are playing now. Our generation, we, we grew up playing red ball cricket, then we adapted to white ball cricket. But this generation, they are growing up playing white ball and they're adapting to red ball. So the focus has to be on red ball cricket because white ball will look after itself with so many, so many franchise cricket and T20 Internationals as well. I think white ball cricket would be fine and you would keep producing good players and systems like England or India. The system is so robust, you will have players, good players. But it's red ball cricket that need to focus on and, and kind of really put everyone's heads together and see, you know, how can we get— whether it's India, England, wherever, Australia— because Australia will struggle as well. The moment, maybe in a couple of years' time on the next Ashes, when Starc, Cummins, uh, Hazlewood, and Steve Smith, they retire—

I don't know, and Boland, and Nisa, surely.

I mean, they're in their mid-30s, late 30s as well. So I mean, they're struggling to get their next generation of red ball cricketers. So every country is going to struggle with red ball cricket. So it's important important to kind of focus on red ball cricket a little more.

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