Why is it so hard to win the Ashes in Australia?

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Hello, welcome to the TMS pod. Only 25 days until the start of the Ashes ball by ball, commentary of all five tests on Sound Sports Extra and highlights on the BBC Sport website and app. We will spend a lot of this show talking about that. We'll also look ahead to England semi final at the Women's Cricket World Cup. That's against South Africa Wednesday morning from half past nine. Also on Sports Extra. So for the next hour, England and Somerset spinner, Jack Leach. Evening, Jack.

Hi, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you. Former England fast bowler Stephen Finn. Where are you, Stephen?

Evening, Chappers. I am here.

Good, Excellent. All set. When do you fly out?

I'm off on the 17th of November. Very much looking forward to it.

And live from Australia, Jim Maxwell is with us. Here we go again, Jim. Here we go again.

Well, hopefully we go with a very competitive series which ends up with a important game in Sydney which more often than not, well, in recent years is either wet or the series is over. So let's hope we get to Sydney with the the Ashes still up for grabs.

Do you sense? And we're going to get into all of the different themes and we'll talk about Cummins. First of all, do you sense that it could be the series where we get to Sydney with it still on the line? You first, Jim.

I've seen a lot of Ashes series and I'm hoping that that's the case because frankly, England only come to Australia and play good cricket about one in four series. If you look at their record since the war and most of the recent ones have been terrible. At least Australia is always competitive in England, even if they don't win. But the England have lost 4 nil and 5 nil. We don't want that. Seriously, we don't want that. And there are going to be a lot of English fans here who come with expectation. A bit like following a Lions rugby tour, that they're going to see their team perform, but it's going to be tough even without Cummins. I reckon it'll be tough.

It's. I mean you, you've. I mean, factually you are correct, Jim, but you've also stoked it a little bit already. And we're, we're still, we're still two or three, which is what we want obviously. Would. Do you think we should go there in hope, Jack?

Yeah, I think it feels a little bit different this time around. Obviously had the pleasure of sort of playing under Baz and Stokesie and yeah, it does feel very different this time in terms of, in terms of what they've created and the belief that's in that group. So I think it'll give us the best chance, that's for sure.

I genuinely think this is England's best chance in 15 years to win the Ashes. I don't think they'll allow themselves to be bullied the way that has happened in the last few series that England have sent teams down there. And I'm very optimistic about England's chances. So. Yeah, I'll see you down there, J.

Looking forward to it. Looking forward to seeing you. And we did this. This is the ABC cricket magazine which I'm the editor editor of. We did this a month ago. So there's been a fair bit of anticipation here that Cummins will not be featuring. He may not feature at all. You think about fast bowlers back injuries, which you might be aware of, Finney. But yeah, they're talking it up. There's been a bit of propaganda around the fact that Cummins is going to come back with a pink ball in Brisbane and you know, with Hazelwood and Stark, they'll run through England. Maybe a few people have forgotten the last time we played a pink ball up there we got beaten by the West Indies. So. Well, that's not all. That's not all in Australia's favorite.

That front cover of that magazine then said Redemption and it had Steve Smith on there. When you are looking at Pat Cummins and let's start with this with Cricket Australia confirming yesterday that he's out of the first test in Perth and hoping he can be ready for the second test in Brisbane, you would doubt that, would you, Jim, from Australia's point of view, before we get onto the nature of the industry and talk to Steven about it and Jack, you would cast doubt on whether he would be ready for the second Test?

Yes, I would think so. It's not like a standard injury a batsman might get. I think with fastball and backs, you're always wary of how quickly they can recover. And I was talking to Stuart Clark, you know, played for Australia at Ash's test, and he's a New South Wales selector. We were talking over the course of this India Australia game on the weekend, and he was a little skeptical about the optimism thing that seems to be around, that he'd come back in Brisbane, maybe Melbourne, maybe not at all. Back injuries are a bit like that, aren't they, Steve?

Yeah, they are. And I think it's the nature of the back injury that complicates it for Cummins. I think if it were a back spasm or an intercostal strain or something like that, then those things have a determinable end and you can see a path back from it. But I think that with a bone stress injury in your back that is aggravated by bowling, I really think that it complicates things for Australia in knowing when he might be able to come back. So it's more of a case of hoping he'll play a part in a series rather than knowing, which, for England is clearly a good thing, but for cricket it's a bad thing because a series that has Pat Cummins in it is. Is a good thing for the game. I love watching him bowl and I hope that he's fit for some stage in the series because he is such a big part of that Australian team.

And I mean, it sounds an obvious thing here, Jack, doesn't it? But. And there's no such thing as having a 100% guarantee with an injury like this, but they would have to get to that stage before risking him otherwise. A bit like with what happened with wokes at the oval, albeit that was an injury mid game, you're going to be severely depleted given how they line up.

Yeah, for sure, I think. I mean, I got a stress fracture just before the Ashes in 23, and, you know, there's no chance of. Well, I didn't feel like there's any chance I was going to play. So bad injury, really. I'm not sure to what extent if it's, you know, stress response or actually a fracture or, you know, these things will obviously come into it. But, yeah, I mean, even if they know that he's unlikely to be fit for the first three tests, I don't feel like they're going to come out and say that yet. I think the great thing about the Ashes is kind of the buildup and the talk and, you know, there's a few mind games going around. So I think obviously they don't want to rule him out completely and, you know, keeps it interesting and keeps England kind of maybe thinking about that a little bit. Yeah, hopefully, as Finney says, I think as fans, you want to see the best, be the best. I reckon if you're in that England group, you're quite happy that Cummins won't be in that first Test.

They went early, I suppose, didn't they, with that announcement, with still a fair bit of time to go before the first Test. Was that to just stop the speculation, Jim? Was it, to sort of make sure people didn't. Australian fans didn't get their hopes up and then go into that first test 48 hours beforehand and be disappointed. Why did they go so early?

Pat Cummers might have said he wants to be honest about it and come out and tell everyone how the situation is. I mean, the fact is, he hasn't bowled a ball for quite some time. So I think as a. As a fast bowler in particular, you need a bit of time to get yourself right, to show that you can stand up to the stress of coming back. So, yeah, I just think that Cummins has been quite honest about it with the fans. Go on, Finney.

Yeah. So Cummins has dismissed Root in Test cricket 11 times and Root averages 26 against him because of the angle, because of the bounce that Drew that Cummins gets. So. So Joe Root might be breathing a sigh of relief.

He might get 100 this time, you reckon?

Well, the only caveat to this is that Matthew Hayden has said that if root doesn't score 100, he's going to walk around the SCG naked. So I am prepared to sacrifice Joe Roots hundreds to see Matthew Hayden walk around naked.

Do they. Do you think Stephen miss him more as a captain or as a bowler?

He's been a very unifying captain. I think he came in at a time of trouble for Australia and he has united the team behind a common goal, which I think is a great attribute for a leader to have. But the raw numbers of his bowling is just a joke, really. He averages just over 22 in Test match cricket, which is right up there with the best that have ever played the game. And he's a talisman in that regard with the ball in his hand. So I'd probably say more as a bowler than as a captain, because they've got a very able replacement and I don't think you'd be able to replace him fully with the ball, Jack.

Yeah, I agree with that. I'd say definitely with the Ball, one of the best in the world. And if you went around the dressing room and asked who would you least like to face in that lineup, it would be Cullens. He might. It feels like he's got that extra yard of pace and hits the wicket extremely hard. So even though he might not come up as the quickest, he almost feels quicker than. Than what it says. So, yeah, I think his bowling will be missed, Jim.

Scott Boland will come in for him. So then that gives you Hazelwood at 34, Stark 35, and Boland, who's 36. What his injury also does is then sort of take away any kind of strength in depth, doesn't it? Or you tell me what might be coming behind Scott Boland.

He's 36 and given the conditions we normally see in Perth, certainly last year in the Test against India, there's a bit in that surface a bit like the old wacker bounce pace. So Boland's not Cummins, but he's pretty handy. He's bowling very well at the start of the season. And I think Australia have had a much better preparation going into this test than they did against India last year when they were clearly underdone and it showed in their performance when they lost and yet because they still won the series. So, yeah, I think Australia's pretty well well prepared, but they've lost a gun already. The interesting thing around Smith, of course, and the stability, the continuity that they've had in this side and, you know, they win more than they lose. Is that Smith's. I think since being under Cummins as vice captain, I think he's captained the side on six occasions for a draw and five wins. So that's a pretty good record. Even though there may be a bit of ageism about this side.

Yeah, that's an annoying start you've thrown in there, Jim. Didn't really need to. Didn't really need to know. We love that. Yeah, I know. That's annoyingly good one from your perspective as well, actually, is that, um. I mean, there is, there is, there is some ageism, isn't there, Jack, around this team and yet depend, depending on who they go with up top, that's where they may have a bit of youth. If they go with Constance and we'll turn our attentions to the batting now that that's where their youth is. Aside from that, they are a very experienced side.

That feels like maybe where the biggest weakness would be would be in that in their batting lineup. It feels like it's always been quite settled when We've played against them in the past and maybe there's just a few question marks over like their starting top six or whatever, so especially at the top and how they line those guys up. But yeah, again we're talking about very good players who you know are more than capable. So I think they'll still look very strong in their home conditions. But again, there's that little question marks that are kind of making the lead up to it quite interesting.

I mean we did Stephen last week with Michael Vaughan and toughers and Glenn McGrath. We did a combined 11 show which was. Yeah, I mean it was a severely flawed format by the end of it, but it was. But it was a very interesting show with plenty of discussion and debate. The roles, the lineup of the Australian top six really to a certain extent probably had the most debate around it.

Yes. And that's one of the things that gives me heart for England going into this series is that I look back to 201011 and Australia going into the series didn't know their best team and that counted to our advantage because it left Australia chopping and changing, changing the balance of their team in the middle of the series. And I see a kind of similar thing happening here where you have two all rounders that would be. Would preferably bat at six in Bo Webston, Cameron Green needing to squeeze into that top six somewhere you've got Usman Khawaja who it looks like is definitely going to play. But that second opener spot, there's question marks over that. Is it going to be Constance? Is it going to be Jake Weatherald who actually I think they might probably go with Weatherald for the way that he's been playing in domestic cricket recently. Will Marness Labashame return at number three after being dropped only a few months ago? So there are a lot of question marks about the Australian top order and again, that's one of the reasons why I'm optimistic, because of how settled England are in theirs.

Where would you begin, Jim?

There's a lot of talk at the moment given the nature of the pitch in Perth at the big stadium there that favors the. The faster man. And Nathan Lyons got so far a pretty negligible record there. So will they go for the old Pommy trick of having depth in batting and all rounders, you know, the one that failed so disastrously in 1968 in the first Test when England picked, they had eight batsmen and Bill Laurie Savage, Pat Pocock and Australia won the game handsomely. So it's a trick that doesn't Always work. And what I'm saying is that it could well be like this. This is a bit of speculation, but we like that when we're having a chat, don't we? So Kawaja, who, you know, sorry to say, if he's facing anything over 140 clicks these days, he's getting a nick off, he's past it, he's gone. But, you know, maybe Archer and or Wood won't play. They don't play very often, so we'll see. So that's Kawaja. Then there's Wetherell, who might open. Manus will come in at three. He's got to play. I mean, he scores 100 every time he goes out the bat at the moment. Then Smith, then Head, then Green, then Kerry, then Webster, who'll be playing as a Tony Gregg type off spinning medium pace all rounder. And they'll give Lyon a little bit of a rest even though he's the leading wicket taker in the team. And then, you know, Stark, Boland and Hazelwood, that sounds like a possible lineup because they'll also want. And you know, you talk about bowling. Green is one of our best bowlers if he's bowling. But they're worried about his condition, his health and that's why he only bowled a handful of overs in the shield game he played. So that might be the COVID to have Webster. He deserves to keep a spot just for his catching, let alone his bowling or his batting. And Green, so that's an option to think about.

And that takes Green out from that number three slot and then allows Labochain to come back in.

That's an option.

I'm sure they're considering a couple of things there. Then, Jack, we'll go with Labashane first of all, who has started, as Jim says, seems to score a century every time he goes out to bat at the moment. Four centuries in his last six innings domestically. And that's what George Bailey, the selector, has to look at current form compared to why he was dropped in the first place.

I'd be very surprised if Lavishane doesn't play. I think he's obviously been told to work on a few things and the way he goes about it and all that kind of thing. And I think to put in those performances just before and Ashes, it would seem silly not to get him in. He's been a big part of that team for a long time. I think he adds a lot of energy in the field in his way and yeah, I think he can even bowl a few leggies so yeah, no, I, I would see, I would think that he would be in the team.

What's he like as an opponent, Jack?

I actually love playing against him. I think he's great value. Yeah, he loves the game and like it's quite refreshing to see when someone sort of loves it that much and yeah, I played against him first time was in Brisbane when I played club cricket over there. I was 21. So he, he would have probably been 18 and yeah, he was exactly the same then as he, as he was when I played him a few years ago. So now he's, he's, he is a good lad and he's great fun.

Just on.

Do you reckon Labashine, Jack has got a future career once he stops playing as an umpire.

Why do you think that?

Well, he always, he's always positive in the field, isn't he?

Yeah.

I mean if you, if you went to Lane, if you went to Lebanon every Drs, you'd run out after two hours.

Yeah. In, in the, in the main then when, when you look at the Australian top six and, and also what Jim has said is if they, if they play the extra B well, Stephen, they will go quite heavily on form then. Is that why you would go with Wetherald as well? I mean he averaged over 50 last season in the Sheffield Shield. But they will look at domestic form here and sometimes that's a daft question to ask, but we know that England don't necessarily go on domestic form, do they, when they bring players in?

No, I think their method is more measured than that in terms of. I'm not sure that it would just be whoever's scoring the most runs, but I think certainly opening is a specialist position. They tried messing around last year with Steve Smith going up to open and it didn't work for them. You want your players batting in positions that they're familiar with.

Voorny said last week he'd go with Mitch Marsh.

Yeah, I don't know. I've seen some funny interviews with Mitch Marsh actually. I like him as well. It's boring liking all these Australian players, but I saw some funny interviews with him and he was asked what you're. Are you thinking about the Perth Test? He said, yeah, I've got tickets for days one and two. Don't know about number three yet. So I think Mitch Marshall, he's a fantastic player, but he's a middle order test player opening the batting. Especially if we anticipate these pitches to have more in them than they have done before for seam bowlers. You have to have a proficient technique to be able to deal with that. So I would pick a specialist opener of which Weatherald seems the outstanding candidate at the moment.

When you just, just go on that.

On that mark, we've got two rounds of the Sheffield Shield to come, right? Yeah, I think they're picking the test team after this one that starts today. So it's not out of the question that Sam Constance could score some runs that indicate they want to stick with him because that's the type of player they want opening. You certainly don't want labor. Shane and Khawaja going out to bat will be asleep at lunchtime if they're opening and you know they've got to find someone who can take the bowling on. That's why they love David Warner for so long and you know the mob. The mob are looking for a Warner and they loved Constance's entree in Melbourne against Bumrah last year. I mean it put the great bowler off completely but he hasn't quite got the game as yet to keep doing that. But.

Mike Hussey said, didn't he Jim, as regards Const that you know, obviously that was an incredible performance in Melbourne but it's a lot to expect a kid to be able to keep doing that and therefore there needs to be some element of patience with him.

There may be but the mistake they made I believe was they didn't take him to Sri Lanka. Playing him in the test matches there, that was the place to give him the opportunity on the slowish pitches against underwhelming new ball bowling to get him in. But you know, Khawaja filled his boots which is fine for khawaja but he's 38.

You do need to be looking ahead when you talk. That's what just on the Sheffield Shield matches when you were talking about Australia are going to be better prepared for this than they were last year's series against India. Is playing the Sheffield Shield part of that. What are the other preparations? I mean they're going better now as opposed to 12 months ago.

Oh, Sheffield Shield and the fact that they just played 3:50 over game against India Ak it wasn't their best team and they're going to play for what it's worth 5 T20s in the next week as well. But the fact that they've got a body of work behind them this year which they didn't last year and they're told we don't play as much test cricket as you do apart from the final and the West Indies in the middle of the year. Normally, we wouldn't play any cricket from about March until November. So that's what happened last year coming into the Indian series. It hasn't happened this time. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough. And that was the first time that anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are gonna come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Jack is there on the sort of balance between domestic cricket and international cricket and what you need to do in domestic cricket to get into England squad. I mean, you had a strong summer with Somerset. What message goes out to domestic county cricketers about a pathway into the England squad? And I appreciate I'm asking you that as a member of this England squad in the past, but what. What is that message?

I think the message is mainly done through way that guys play. County players are watching the England team, and the one thing that Bas has really done is, like, made it very clear how he wants the team to play. And I think as a player, that's really refreshing to have. And. And then from when you're looking on the outside, it becomes very clear, like, how you need to kind of play the game. So I wouldn't necessarily say there's like a message through talking, but I would say mainly through just the way he's, you know, setting up the team. And then guys will look at what role they feel they can do in that team and try and show that by the way they play.

How much communication have you had ahead of this squad being announced is. I mean, do they keep ev. Do they keep all contenders informed?

Well, I had a phone call from Robke because he needed to sack me, but he. I. My contract was up. So, you know, he obviously told me that and at the same time said about the Ashes squad and that I wasn't going to be in it. So was gutted about that. And that was really my aim for the. For the summer. And it wasn't to be, you know, so, yeah, kind of time to reflect and kind of, you know, try and keep getting better and get myself back in there.

Yeah. Because the door is not closed.

And, yeah, I think it's. I still believe I am getting better and I'm. I'm still trying to get to my best stuff. So I feel like I'm never going to give up on that. You know, I don't know from their point of view whether they have completely moved past me, but I, I believe, like, I'm still getting better and I need to keep showing that in, in county cricket, had a strong year, but just because you really want something doesn't mean you deserve it. So I think it's, for me, it's like, about looking at my game and, and finding there's definitely things that I can do to improve and, and I'll be looking to do that.

We've had this conversation before, Stephen, haven't we, about the demands on bowlers from what a captain may want, what a head coach may want, what there might be different to your game, the kind of game that you may be wanting to play in a certain match and then the pressure that it puts on you that is more difficult for bowlers than batters.

I don't know. In this regime, I think as a bowler your job is to take wickets and The Stokes and McCollum in particular want you just thinking about taking wickets. Whereas batters can score as many runs as they want at the moment, but if their style doesn't fit the way that England play, they won't get picked because we've seen people racking them up in county cricket. John Sibley has scored loads and loads of runs in domestic cricket, but. But because his style has been labeled not similar to the guys that play now, then it doesn't seem as though he's going to get a look in. So actually, as a bowler, when you go back to domestic cricket, your. Your job to catch the selector's eye is to. Is to win games of cricket for your team. And Jack's done that loads this summer and can count himself unlucky not to be on the plane to Australia. But that is the only thing that needs to occupy your mindset when you're out there playing domestic cricket as a bowler.

Is that the simple instruction, take wickets, Jack?

Yeah, I think so. I think we play on some. I've played on a couple of helpful wickets at Somerset and I think that doesn't really help me going into an ash's summer. Funnily enough, like, obviously it's a good way for Somerset feeling like they can win games and I'm gonna try and do the best job I can for them. But I think sometimes when you play on one or two wickets like that, then people think you're playing on them all the Time. I still feel like I put in some good performances on better wickets but, you know, you just got to keep trying to prove that and bowl as well as you can on every wicket you play on and, and find ways to, to develop and improve. So. Yeah.

Jack Leach, Stephen Finch and Maxwell with us on five Live Cricket. We discussed the Australian batting lineup. The. The simple issue for England. Stephen is only at number three, isn't it?

It seems to be. Clearly the makeup of their attack is going to cause.

Sorry, yeah, just we'll come on. I'll come on to the bowls a minute. Sorry, I meant just on the batting.

On the batting side of things. Yes. Yeah. The number three position will be hotly debated, I'd imagine, until they announce their team two days before that first test match, as is customary. Do you go with the tried and tested Ollie Pope, who has played well, scored hundreds from number three, hasn't managed to sustain it through an entire series, or do you go with the young buck in Jacob Bethel who clearly when people talk about him and I've not shared a dressing room with him or played against him, but when you hear people talk about him from within the dressing room, they talk about this special player that just has something about him which is very hard to explain to people. You can select someone on just having something, but you can tell. And the way that he handled batting at number three in New Zealand in his debut test matches, how calm he looked is something that I think means that he'll have a long international career. But it's certainly going to be a toss up between those two going into the first test.

Well, yeah, but a toss up between them, Jack, when really they haven't either of them. It's not like there are five warm up matches for them both to. Both to sort of show what they can do. I mean, they must know, Jack, already who they're going to start with.

I don't know. I think it depends slightly on the wicket at Perth and also probably the bowling lineup that they play and whether they go with Bash as a spinner in Perth. They might think that they want a bit more like if they don't go with Bash, then they might want Rudy and Bethel to bowl some spin. So I do think it slightly depends on that stuff and also how guys are playing up until then and in the nets and in the warm up game. I genuinely think that, like it will be quite a late call. They're both. It's a good problem to have. I think they're both good players and Bethel, I was out in New Zealand when he played there. And yes, when people say he's just got something about him, like he really does, I think he's got confidence for a young guy like, he. He just seems so much older and wiser than. Than what he is in age and very sort of secure in himself and not in an arrogant way, but just. Yeah, he. He takes it all in his stride. And he reminds me of a mini bass, to be honest. So, yeah, I think he's got a bright future, for sure. And whoever played Pokey's done really well as well, and he could count himself unlucky if he doesn't play. But, yeah, I think both might play a part in the series. We'll have to wait and see, but, yeah, it'd be good, whatever they go with.

Who would the Aussies least like to be England's number three, Jim?

It's not a good question to ask an Australian because most Australians will say it doesn't really matter who it is. We're going to knock them over.

Yeah, but I thought you'd be more measured than that, Jim.

Well, I'd be opening with number three. I'd be putting Pope in there. Bethel looks. Looks a talent, but pretty raw. I still think, you know, they're up against better bowling difference. And unless we catch like New Zealand did last time, those two best, New Zealand and England played over there, the we wickets falling regularly.

Yes.

And Pope's record in the last Ashes tour, he averaged 11 across six innings. Stephen.

Yeah.

You can hit Jim purring there, can't you?

Got his dog every now and then. And then he purrs. There we are.

Yeah, Look, I think for someone who plays like Ollie Pope plays in. In Australia, it's very tricky because of the bounce. It sounds like Jim's got the birds in there as well, isn't it?

Is that a parakeet, Jim?

Yeah, he's over there. Yeah, that's Albert. Albert. Albert's the connect, the canary in the room.

Yeah, Albert the canary. Okay. It's like working with Dr. Dolittle this evening. Back to you, Steven.

Yeah, yeah.

Look, when someone plays the way that Ollie Pope does, where his hands push towards the ball, it's going to be a challenge in Australia. But I thought there were times this summer where he managed to temper that pushing of. Of his hands towards the ball. In particular when he scored his hundred at Headingley in the. In the test match against India. So he'll be doing a lot of work on that now as a lot of the England batters will be to counter that bounce especially when playing outside the off stump. So it's not just Ollie Pope that's.

Fallible to them on the bowling Jack. And you will know that all of these guys and will have played with them as well. When you look at. I'm not going to do the spinners here. I'm going to do the. The fast bowlers. Is this at all when they will mix a match given the demands of it and the frailties at times of some of their seamers.

Joshua Woody I think obviously both come back from injuries and Stokesie as well so. And Gus as well in summer. So I think that the attack is. Is strong but there are question marks I'd say over how they can. I don't think anyone will be able to play in all five games but we'll have to wait and see. But I think it will be. I think that's what they've done really well over the last couple of years is get games into. So actually I feel as a fan confident if like Tungi is playing in that first Test. Like I think he's got a lot to offer in test cricket and you know, had we not Baz not given him that opportunity and we hadn't seen that then you maybe feel a little bit more unsure. So I think what they've done really well over the last couple of years is get games into people. So like it's a really strong attack going down there with. With plenty of pace. I think Castle have a lot to do. Playing with him as a teammate was an absolute joy. He's. He's one that will just keep going a lot of pain so he'll play a big part and But I think all the seamers will. Will have to play a part at.

Some point if they were to go with just three and a spinner in Perth. Stephen, who. Who would your three be?

Well that's very much put me on the spot. Chavez. I've not seen the pitch.

Oh don't. I'm not having that.

I stick my keys in the pitch first before I pick my attack.

Chapter I am not having the depends on the pitch at this stage. Come on.

I would be picking I think Kaas, Archer and Wood if everyone was fit. It's meant to be very quick and very bouncy at Perth and I think that those three guys could make the most of could make the most of that and I think that the elephant in the room is that Ben Stokes is so vital to England playing well in Australia and being able to fulfill Both roles as batter, but also as bowler. And I just hope that when he stood at the back of his mark and he thinks about bowling a 15 over spell in that first test, that someone's brave enough to tap him on the shoulder and say, not today, Stokes, he save it for another day.

Is that Harry Brook?

Well, yeah, it'd be Brooke, it'd be Root, it'd be anyone. But I've played with Ben Stokes and when he gets the bit between his teeth and he wants to do something, he makes it happen. That's what makes him the most incredible player, is that he never leaves it to anyone else in those kinds of situations.

We saw it a couple of times last summer, didn't we?

Yes. And he won his team the game in a few of those situations. We've seen him do it with the bat and with the ball. That's what makes him someone that the team want to follow and that's what makes him a great captain as well. But yeah, one of. I just hope one of those senior players in that moment is brave enough to tap him on the shoulder and say maybe just 5 or 6 instead of 15.

Look, I think he's more likely to keep bowling if you tell him that.

Well, so do you have to do the reverse? Do you have to do the reverse then, Jack? Do you have to go? Do you know what? Do you know what, Ben? I think that would be a great time for you to bowl 25 overs off.

Yeah, that might be the way to go about it, actually.

Yeah. Jim will like this next stat, I think, which I'm probably playing to the Australian crowd here since England won in. In 2010, 2011, with Stephen. Part of. Part of that. England's record down under 15 tests played, no test won, 13 lost and 2 drawn. Which goes back to what you said at the top, Jim.

Not even a moral victory in that.

Not even a moral. Not even a moral victory. But. But wouldn't. Would. I mean, this is a stupid question, I know, but do you not. Would Aussie fans not like a close one? We talked to the start about it going to Sydney and having something on it. We've had some really memorable series over here and that hasn't happened over there.

It depends who you ask.

Well, it does, yeah. Yeah.

If you're in the bar. If you're in the bar, the MCG members on Boxing Day you might get a nice Aussie who's talking about. It's important to have competition in this series.

Really awesome.

But if you're on the hill in Adelaide during the test match with a few blokes from Alice Springs and Catherine having a schooner or three. I reckon they might tell you to buzz off or something like that. What are you talking about, mate?

Yeah, there are a lot of Aussies that would tell me to buzz off, Jim, to be honest with you. They need to put on that record though, Jack. They need to pick it up, don't they?

It's not great, is it? I mean I played in one of those draws so I'll take that. But yeah, no, it's not been. It's not been good. And yeah, I think it's. You can see in the last Keezy, Stokesian, Baz have gone about things and planning and stuff. It's all been towards this series how big it is and how much we need to but make a better account of ourselves over in Australia.

So what did you find so hard out there? Now admittedly it was affected by Covid at that, that series so you know, they were slightly differing circumstances. But what did you find so hard?

Probably the Australians just like we actually had a chat the day before the Brisbane game. I remember us having a chat about all the guys that have played, sort of told us what the crowd can be like and you know, I sort of thought, oh no, that'd be all right, that'd be good fun. And then when you're bold, sticks over for 60 or whatever I had and then you're being told, yeah, everything about how bad you are dealing with that. I think obviously there's so much build up to an Ashes, a massive series to play and it's the biggest playing cricket in test cricket and it's a big occasion so trying to bring your best stuff to that. I think also just the conditions are so different to English conditions. You know, you've got a different ball, the wickets are very different and a lot hotter. Like dealing with all of those things, like it really tests you as an English cricketer. Yeah. So those things I think were the toughest things. I don't know what Finney would think. He probably enjoyed it.

They had this fellow called Jim Maxwell who never stopped sniping away. Actually.

You need to remember, you need to remember this, Vinnie. In 1011 when England got on a bit of a roll, the fans were really chirping, Mitchell Johnson amongst a number. So you're going to have numbers in Australia over the fence. Right. So if you're starting to play some good cricket, you're going to get a lot of support. We have just seen here in this extraordinary 50 over series against India, I'd reckon 80% of the crowd at every game was supporting India. And that'll be the same with the Ashes. All these seats have been sold every day and most of them have been sold to English supporters.

Yeah, I think that's the one thing that I remember most vividly from 2010-11 was one the English support. And there are heaps and heaps of English people going down there because it's the first one in eight years that people have been able to travel to. And also I think that there's an element of Australia for all of all of the sniping and all of the pre series stuff that goes on. They respect people who try hard and they respect people who puff their chests out and don't get pushed over when the Australians puff at them. And I don't see this England team going down timidly or meekly, which I think the Australian public will respect. And in 2010-11 the tide turned on Australia. I reckon the morning of day two of the fourth Test match when we bowled Australia out for 98 and we looked like we were miles ahead of the game and the Australians turned on themselves and it felt like we had everyone in the ground supporting us, including Australians. And you felt that when you walked down the street, you felt that everywhere. People stopping you all the time saying we respect how you're playing your cricket and we love it. And that is England's task to do that early enough in the series to turn the tide on Australia themselves.

Jack, thank you very much for being with us this evening. Jack Leach has been with us on five live cricket. Just a quick one, Stephen. On, on warm ups and still always so much discussion about how a team should warm up for the Ashes. England have got this sort of intra squad three day match as their only warm up.

They do, but I think so when I look back on Ash's tours that I went on and I went on three of them in 2010, 11, 2013, 14 and 2017, 18. Two with limited success or no success and one with lots of success. But there was no cricket between the end of the English summer and the beginning of that Ashes series. So you were going in cold effectively after a couple of months out. So it was imperative that you did have competitive warm up games. Whereas the, the team and the squad and all of the players, most of the players involved in the Ashes are involved in this, in these white ball games in New Zealand are getting competitive cricket in themselves there. So it's just a matter of adjusting to conditions when you go to Australia, as opposed to really getting yourself into a competitive mindset, which they will already have found in New Zealand.

Stephen. Okay, let's just switch from the men's side of things and when we talk about the Women's World cup next, Stephen Finn and Jim Maxwell are with us. Alice Davison Richards joins us as well. England International. Evening, Alice.

Evening.

How you doing?

I'm very well, thank you. Fed say that England have grown into this tournament. Yes, I know that. I know they've got off to a. Got off to a flyer, but they've looked more and more secure as it's gone on.

Yeah, I think they've kind of quietly gone about their business, which I think probably suits them quite well. There isn't too many headlines or anything to, like, go about. But, yeah, I think they quietly go about going about their business and different people are putting in key performances at good times.

What's impressed you the most about them?

I just think they just don't look too panicked and there seems to be a clear game plan that the team are really buying into. And, yeah, I just think with Nat captaining a team, it's always going to be a pretty calm and composed team and it's starting to really shape.

They've struggled at times with the bat and they have been pushed close and they have been rescued by rain a couple of times. And having said that, they've struggled with the bat. You know, they've also had players who have been invaluable to them, Heather Knight, for example. But do they need more from others?

I think obviously you'd like help from other people, but I think what Heather Knight's done, where she's basically come off the back of absolutely no cricket into the performances that she's put in, is incredibly valuable. Obviously you want a few other people putting their names up as well, but you've got the likes of Cassie and Charlie Dean down at the bottom of the order putting in some really key, I'd probably just say stubborn performances, to be honest. So, yeah, hopefully you'd like a few of the top order to keep firing. I mean, Amy Jones in the last game got 80 odds. So, yeah, starting to head in the right direction.

Do you think, Stephen, they've got the preferable semi final?

Well, yeah, I would say so. I think avoiding Australia was imperative and I can see Jim grinning and the Canaries going nuts in the background. So, yeah, the. Yeah, avoiding Australia was imperative, I think. And India are a team that are building as well. They've looked in some good form in their last couple of games. Their top order in particular has looked pretty destructive. So, yeah, to face South Africa with the memories of that game, the first game of the World Cup, I think bowling South Africa out for around 70 and knocking them off easily, they'll harness those memories and breeze through it, I'm sure.

Well, and Alice, it's in the same venue, isn't it?

Yeah, it's not too shabby for England, so, yeah, I'm sure the girls won't be thinking too much about what happened before. I just think they can use it as confidence and then, yeah, hopefully enjoy themselves as much as possible.

On Wednesday, when I asked Stephen if that was the preferable semi final, the look on your face suggested you would agree.

I couldn't possibly comment, but, yeah, no, it definitely is. I think just with the performances earlier in the summer and I think South Africa is a team, I'm going to give them kiss of death now. But South Africa is a team that they shape up quite nicely to and, yeah, who they suit quite well, like facing their bowlers as well as bowlers, their batters as well. So, yeah, I think it should be a good game on Wednesday.

And at the risk of putting yet another smile on Jim's face, but Jim, the Aussies are just overwhelming favorites, aren't they? Given the run that they are on.

They can bat, bowl one to 11. I tell you what, Alana King is a freak, Is absolute freak. And there are very few batters in women's cricket who know how to play that kind of bowling. It's so good, so good. But Annabelle Sutherland, she is playing like Ben Stokes at the moment, really, the influence she's having on the game. So I have a feeling, and this is a lovely trivia question for you, Mark, who played the first World cup final?

Go on.

Australia and England Women, 1973. I think that's what we're going to see in a couple of days.

And then that will be a battle, Alice, won't it, Given that the Aussies are unbeaten in 16 World cup matches in this format since they lost to England in 2017.

Yeah, it's quite good. Quite a good record to come again to come up against. But I just think that when those teams are on a roll, they've got to lose at some point. So I guess Australia are just hoping it's not in the semi or the final. And England, if they come against, come up against them, just have nothing to lose. They've just got to enjoy the battle as much as possible. And the team they've played so many times over the years and like, whether that's with in as teammates or against them and playing international level. So, yeah, I think they just got to take the challenge head on.

They played the hosts in the semi final. Stephen, what have you made of India in this tournament?

Shaky. Unfortunate. I think they've been very fortunate actually to make it through. I think New Zealand and Sri Lanka probably in particular will feel aggrieved by the fact that they had lots of games washed out in Colombo. That meant that they couldn't win as many games as India to make it through to the semi finals because that's what the order in the league was determined on was the amount of wins. So. But they're building nicely. They're going to have good support, but there is a lot of expectation and that's hard to deal with.

Okay, Alice, thank you very much for coming on. Appreciate it. That semifinal then between England and South Africa, Wednesday morning, 9:30. You'll be able to listen to it on Sports Extra and on BBC Sounds. And then India against Australia is that second semifinal and we will have coverage of that as well. What do you want to see from England in this first Test? Stephen, forget what the pitch is like. Forget this, that and the other. Bearing in mind we've talked about their miserable record over the last three series over there. What do you want to see that would give you then hope for the rest of the series?

No loss. I think if England lose that first Test, it can become tricky, but I think it's going to be a genuinely riveting battle over seven weeks. I think that both teams are going to push hard onto one another. But if England can win or draw that first Test, but in particular win it, then they can ride off the really good momentum as a result of them.

But are you going down the McGraw route of 5 nil?

Jim 3:1? I'm picking and Harry Brook to play like all good Yorkshiremen, including his mate Joe Root, back to Len Hutton and so on played in Australia, I want to see him show his best because he's a stunning batsman.

That's 3:1 to England.

Jim 3. I think Australia perhaps. If we're being realistic. If we're being realistic.

Jim. Jim. Stephen, thank you very much. Give our best to Albert the Canary as well. Thank you. It gets underway on 21st November. Every moment of the Ashes with the BBC on Test match special on Sports Extra.

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