Wickets for Stokes, but injury worries for Wood

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The TMS podcast.

On BBC Sounds hello, I'm Stefan Shemelt and welcome to the Test Match special podcast from Lilac Hill on the outskirts of Perth, Western Australia. There's been mixed news for England on the opening day of their Ashes warm up against the England Lions. Six wickets for captain Ben Stokes on his return to action, but an injury worry for Mark Wood to come. We'll hear from England vice captain Harry Brook and George Debell from the Cricketer.

The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

Well, we're sitting on the outfield at Lilac Hill. The youngsters from Midland Guildford Cricket Club, well they've already started their evening net session. Planes are flying overhead as they have been all day. We're out near Perth Airport. It's been a pretty peaceful day, smattering of spectators in the ground. A few of them got stuck into England with the occasional heckle, but I'd describe the cricket as gentle. I'm alongside George Dubel of the Cricketer. What do you make of it George?

Gentle is exactly the word. It's not really what you expect, is it, at the start of an ash's tour, but we talked briefly earlier in the day about this was the sort of day that has given warm up games in a way a bad press. Not because there was anything wrong with the standard of cricket or anything like that, but conditions here are nothing like I think we're expecting next week. You know, it's a really low slow wicket and so there is a danger that England could still get somewhat surprised if they end up on a very quick bouncy wicket as we expect them to for the next two tests. So you wonder what the point is. There's still some point, of course, but I don't think it was ideal, to be honest.

The scorecard, for what it's worth. England Lions 382. All out chance for some of their batters to impress against test match bowlers. And some of them did. Ben McKinney, Jordan Cox, 17 year old Thomas Rue I thought was excellent for his half century. Matt Potts had a bit of fun at the end with his 50, but it's always Ben Stokes, isn't it, as a story. Six wickets for the England captain. Bowling for the first time since July. Playing for the first time since July. After that shoulder injury, I'm not sure how well he bowled. He looked fit, but a lot of his wicket, well, all of his wickets were to catches on the leg side and sometimes George even, even he looked a bit bemused by the way that, that he was picking them up.

He did, but I don't, I don't think the scores matter very much at all. The important thing is he got through three spells and he looked absolutely fine. And if there was one thing that England wanted to get from this game, it was that. I mean, the other thing they wanted to get was Archer and Wood coming through unscathed. And I, you know, I know Archer's, you know, really difficult to talk here without getting a fly in your mouth, isn't it?

It's a Perth problem.

I think it's a bad plan to go jogging here because you take in more calories from flies that you expend from running. Anyway, that's my theory, that's my excuse.

England were getting sledged about the flies. Actually a friend, one of our friends down to the right, I think he picked up on their batting. The flies away all day. But back to the fast bowlers, Joffer Archer and Mark Wood.

Yeah, I actually thought Archer bowled absolutely fine. I thought he had more to give and he was keeping a little bit back for the more important stuff to come.

I thought he looked lively, his spelling, his new ball spell in the morning. And then again after lunch, there was one where he particularly discomforted Will Jacks. Even. Even on the slow pitch. I think we'll talk a bit more about. You're right, he looked fine. Yeah, he looked great.

So I wouldn't worry at all about the fact that there are no wickets next to him. I thought Atkinson improved. The day wore on absolutely fine. Those are big ticks. But the problem is that Mark Wood is going for a scan. He got through eight overs and again I thought he looked okay.

I think it's worth just making the point. We were told he was going to bowl eight overs at the start of the day, bowled two four over spells, but then he went off.

He went off and he's going for a scan. And while they say it's precautionary and that's great, it's very hard to see how they could pick him for a Test next week. You know, he's not played a first class game since August 2024 and I just don't think you could take a chance on him at this stage now. Hopefully the scan is fine and you know, we know Josh Hazlewood went for a scan a couple of days ago and he's going to play but he's been playing a lot of cricket and Wood hasn't. And you know, I think the best case scenario is that he's in the shake up to be selected for the second Test at Brisbane. I don't think you could pick him really.

And I think everyone will just have everything crossed for Mark Wood for the injuries that he's been through. You just mentioned he's not played a first class game since August 2024 and that was a test match. And since then he's had elbow injury. He came back from that to playing white ball cricket. At the start of this year he got injured at the Champions trophy, a knee problem that he had to have surgery on. He wanted to get back in the home summer. Gradually that was pushed back. He gives everything for England. Probably England's fastest bowler of all time. He could have knocked Red Bull cricket on the head so long ago to go and have a much easier job bowling 4 overs in franchise leagues. But he keeps wanting to come back to play for England and he did well here on the last Ashes tour. Probably the only England cricket who did. And there's been so much excitement about getting him and Joffer Archer in the same England Test team in an Ashes Test match in Australia. So many England fans will be desperate for that to come true.

I think the point you make about how everyone will be wishing him well on a personal basis is absolutely right because it's been so long. I mean from an England perspective, what was it, a three year central contract he was given with a view to this tour. He's now got one year left of his central contracts and it was all about, yeah, this ash is. He's at that age, what is he, 35? I think I completely agree. I've certainly never seen an England bowler bowl as fast as him and as regularly. I'm not sure that all England supporters quite appreciate how good and how quick he is because so much of his best work has been overseas. But there was a test match in the Caribbean that started was it start of 2019 in trying to think where it was in St. Lucia where he suddenly bowled at the speed of light. He'd been talking about being a fast bowler for years, but really delivered. And ever since then, whenever he's been fit, he has bowled at speeds we've not seen before. I mean, maybe Statham and Larwood going way back, but in, you know, most people's lives. So it takes a toll. And the fact that he's still doing it at 35 and the fact that there's so much hope based on him just shows what he can contribute. He could do things that very, very few people can. And it would be lovely to see him and Archer bowling together on this trip. But look, it's not over. It's a worry and I think you would be, it would be a high risk strategy to pick him for the first Test. But hopefully the scan is okay. We hear that he's quite confident and then, you know, there is more than a week between the first and second test and it does give him a chance. But yeah, he's to go through the rehab for as long as he has and then suffer a bit of a setback today. It does feel cruel, but it can be a very cruel game.

We were sitting actually over by the England analyst team and we heard speeds of 91 mph mentioned when Wood was bowling in his first spell. You talk about strategy, George, for the first Test and have England shown their hand here for their strategy of the first Test because when the team sheets landed this morning, the England 11 did not have Shoaib Bashir in it. It was five seamers, four plus Ben Stokes, Brydon cast, not here. He hasn't played today because he's ill. And we're led to believe that maybe Kaas would have been in the England team and that Josh Tong would have been in the Lions. Tong came into the England team, he got the wicket of Ben McKinney and maybe Tong would be the one to benefit therefore if Wood is not fit. But the overall point, George, is something that I think some of us have suspected for a little while. England look like they're thinking of an all pace attack for Opta Stadium.

They do, but I wonder if it changes now. Because Tung is a very good bowler. I mean, I might have picked him anyway, actually. But he's not the same bowler as Wood. He's not nearly as quick as Word. He's quick and he's hostile and he's skillful, but he's not that quick. I just wonder if today may have changed it a bit. For one thing, they're struggling with their overrates. Okay. And I know that England like to think this is a petty point, but it does matter. And at the same time, Joe Root actually took a bit of punishment. I don't know what he went for.

He went 117 from 14 overs, more than eight and over Joe. Now, I think there's a little bit of context to that because he bowled more overs, I think, than he would have done because of Wood's injury. And it did start to drift, certainly in the evening session when Root bowled a long spal and Will Jax got hold of him. But still, if there was a plan for Joe Root to be England's only spin option at Optus Stadium, today wasn't a great advert for that.

And equally, it doesn't look like Bethel's going to play, you know, as a second or third spinner or whatever he would be, because he wasn't able to take his opportunity. He was out for two. It took half an hour to get those two. Yeah, he wasn't able to put pressure on Ollie Pope for that number three spot. So I just wonder whether they'll look at it again. I agree with you. While the England management said to us, don't read too much into this 11, it felt very much like it was their preferred 11. But, you know, Nathan Lyon is the top wicket taker at this new stadium and he takes his wickets there at 20 apiece. In Test cricket, England have invested so much in showp, I just wonder if now is the time to change courses. But, you know, we don't have all the data to make this decision. They will have to get there and look at the pitch and make decisions. And if it's like last year, the India Test, they may well go all pace. But the other thing was, Stokes got through, what, 16 overs today? Three spells. Good to see if he's able to bow 16 overs. If Atkinson's able to bowl 16 overs, Archer also bowed three spells. Do you need the fifth seamer or is there room for the spinner?

Did you need a fifth seamer? If Mark Wood was one of them, yeah, probably.

Because, you know, the fact that he was only going to bowl eight overs in the day tells you something, but it does put a burden on the others. And what you don't want to do is get Stokes bowling at eight extra overs, Archibald in extra rovers, any of them, really. So they've got a difficult decision to make and I suspect they're not completely finalised on it right now and that's probably sensible.

Well, the other point, you could say as well that Shoai Bashir has now got the opportunity to bowl at England's top seven. So if therefore he comes out tomorrow and takes three, four, five, well, then all of a sudden he's pushed his case, hasn't he?

He has. Although I'll say again, I don't think conditions here are at all similar to what we're going to see next week. Like in the nets yesterday, I saw Shoaib and Wheeljax actually both had Stokes nicking off. It was basically a slow turner. Well, that's. I don't think we're going to see a slow turner at Perth. I'd be really, really surprised. So, you know, I don't think conditions are very similar, so they are going to have to make an informed decision based on what they see. But it would be useful for Sherb to get some overs under his belt, to get some rhythm and then they can make a decision. Look, I really like Tung. I think he's got unique selling points as a fast bowler. I don't think any batter would want to face him. But five seamers, all sort of 85 miles an hour to 95. Don't know, it feels. Feels like a lot of one thing, doesn't it?

One man who has pushed his case today or enhanced his reputation and I'm almost certain he won't play in the first Test. He is Will Jacks. He made 84 from 85 balls and I think it's interesting for him to play that innings in the context of Jacob Bethel looking so out of sorts in the. If England either need to shake up their batting order or an injury happens or they want to slightly alter the balance of their team by bringing in that batting spin bowling all rounder. Well, he's done himself no harm today.

He's definitely done himself no harm. I thought that not taking anything away, but some of those runs were a wee bit soft. There were the overs where Root was bowling quite a lot and I think he hit Root for three sixes, didn't he? And there were some overs against the older ball. He was dropped twice, once quite badly. So, look, I thought the innings that most impressed me were actually McKinney, I thought, you know, we know McKinney is a destructive player in the Crawley mould actually. But he also showed, I thought, a bit more discipline. Like he wasn't pushing at the ball, he wasn't reaching. He was compact, powerful but compact. He looked like Matthew Hayden to me. And he's only. He was only 21 last month, I think. So there's a lot to like there and I think they might keep on a senior, sorry, a top order player from the Lions squad once the Lions go home. And I think he's given himself a really good opportunity to do that. I also think John Cox is a really, really good cricketer. I mean, so good in the field. I'm a bit surprised he missed out on a central contract and he got a determined 50. I just think he's a really good batter. Now we know it's tough to get in to this batting lineup. Who are you going to displace, you know. But he provided a reminder as well. Those, if I'm honest, were the two innings that really impressed me. I think McKinney's ceiling as a player is very, very high.

Just before we look ahead to tomorrow, I just want to come back to the point you made at the very start of this chat about the flies. The flies, because they're still here. The discussion about England's preparation and even warm up matches as a concept. Because yesterday we had all the. The hullabaloo about Ben Stokes describing those who've criticised England's warm up plans as has been. Whether or not you think that was a throwaway comment, it was still words that he used. He could have chosen to use different words. But I agree with your point, George, that beyond the conditions here and there's context to why England do this, they haven't got a great deal of time. This method has worked for them in the past. But mainly it is so hard to replicate conditions that any team will find in a test match. Particularly when you are coming to what is a club ground. It is a lovely club ground, don't get me wrong. But that pitch is nothing like what England will face next week at Opta Stadium. So you do have to question the value of this preparation.

Yeah, you do. Look, I don't think this ground has ever hosted a first class or a men's list day game. It's a really look at now. It's idyllic. I mean it's absolutely beautiful. But yeah, it's not what that. I don't know how you get to the stage where you are getting light for light preparation. It's so hard to prepare for Australian conditions. They're so different to England, particularly in Perth and Brisbane. I mean, this is part of the reason and there's nothing wrong with it. It's very smart from Australia where they have started in Brisbane for so long because the pace and bounce is alien to England players and takes a lot of adjustment. Now, there was a time when you did used to be able to play against shield sides when it was a revenue raiser for the local sides and, you know, we know that those days have gone. So I can see it from both sides. Stokes is right that the world has changed, but at the same time, I don't know, there was some disingenuous nonsense before the tour, wasn't there? When you've got the ECB chair saying playing white ball cricket in New Zealand is perfect preparation or very good preparation, whatever. I may have misquoted him a little bit, but you get the thrust of what I'm saying. They need to find a way. They've already got the opposition, right. Getting the lions I think is smart, but I wonder if they can do more. I wonder if they can take over a venue, prepare the pitch in future, do you know what I mean? Go the extra mile and ensure that they're not just in charge of the opposition they're facing, but the conditions, the facilities they're playing in. Because this doesn't feel quite right and they haven't got a lot of time, there is still a danger they're going to get caught just a little bit cold on very fast wickets in the first two games. And I honestly believe that this is a great opportunity for England. Australia are favourites, of course they are. But what they cannot afford to do is go 2 nil down. They just cannot afford to do that. I honestly think if England win one of the first two, they really are in business.

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

So let's hear from England's vice captain, Harry Brooke, who gave his assessment of the day.

Decent day out, to be honest. Yeah, it's good wicket and it's just good to get out there. Get some miles in the legs and the bowlers to bowl a few spells each.

Talk about getting miles in the leg. Was that one of the aims of the day? I'm almost doing a day in the dirt to get you guys attuned to these conditions and ready for next week.

Yeah, definitely. We obviously haven't spent much time together in the recent few months and yeah, just to get back together as a group and get out on the pitch and work towards 10 wickets. It was a successful day to walk off the pitch with 10 wickets.

What do you make of the surface?

It's a little bit slow, but we can't do much about that. We've obviously got the opportunity to go out there and bat tomorrow and hopefully we can get past this goal.

Even on that slow pitch, the captain's come back and taken six wickets. Back from the injury and straight into the action.

Yeah, he's a proper player, isn't he? So it's good to have him back in the side and lead him from the front.

He looked a bit bemused with the way that he took some of his wickets with those catches on the leg side.

Yeah, they were quite similar all six of his wickets. So I think he was a little bit surprised that everybody got out the same way. But no, it's nice just for the lads to get out there like I said and have a run out and bowl a few overs.

How's Mark Wood?

He's alright. I think he's alright.

We believe he's got a scan tomorrow. But you think he could be. He could be okay.

I'm not sure. I haven't spoken to him. I haven't seen him yet, so I have no idea.

It'd be really cruel on him though, wouldn't it, after such a long spell out if he suffered another problem.

Oh yeah, that's not ideal, is it? But that's part of being an extremely fast bowler. But like I say, I haven't seen him yet, I haven't spoken to him, so I don't know his current situation and yeah, we'll see what happens tomorrow.

You're part of the leadership group now. You're the vice captain of this Test team. No show at Bashir in the England eleven today. Is that a hint towards your plans for the Test match team?

I don't pick the teams. That's up to Stokesy, Baz and Keezy to see what they want to do with that first Test. I'm just there to try and help out on the pitch if needs be. But Stokesie usually has everything under control and if he needs any assistance from me, I'll be there to help.

And you guys, the batters, you've got a chance to go out there and get some time in the middle tomorrow.

Yeah, yeah, we're looking forward to it. Hopefully it's going to be another gorgeous day here in Perth and yeah, hopefully we can pile the runs on.

Thanks Harry. Talk about it being idyllic here. It's the ground with that surrounded by the white picket fence, trees just wafting very lazily beyond that. And speaking of wafting, I've been sitting by the barbecue all day and how I've not been in there scoffing multiple burgers. I don't know, just settled on the one. But there's time for that tomorrow George, when England are going to be back having a bat. The pitch we've talked about it is, it is on the slow side. It does look the sort of pitch that that runs can be made on. And when, when we spoke to Harry Brook he made the point that he's going to be facing some, some quality bowling from, from England Lions bowlers.

Well, yeah, he definitely is. The, the issue is we know that Joe Root for example I think is probably the best slow wicket batter in the world. The question marks about him as such, there are, there aren't many scoring runs and fast bouncy wickets. Now he has done it to be fair in South Africa and his record here isn't nearly as bad as people make out but he hasn't got 100 here and if England are going to win the Ashes he probably has to have a series where he gets a couple of hundreds, you know, five, six hundred runs in the series. That sort of, that sort of campaign. So again it doesn't feel absolutely ideal, does it? But I don't know what you can do about that as I say and.

Actually tomorrow we'll be looking for actually quite a lot of players to spend time in the middle. Zack Crawley hasn't played any cricket I think since the T20 Blast quarterfinals and then there was a number of multi format players who were in New Zealand who didn't spend a great deal of time in the middle. Ducket Root, Jamie Smith, Harry Brook made that wonderful century in one of the one day international. So there are a lot of players that will be coming back tomorrow. And Stokes as well of course he's not played any cricket since July.

You see Stokes doesn't realise how much he needs the rhythm of batting. Do you remember his last Test he actually got a 5, 4 and 100. And it took him that long. It took him a few games to get back into the rhythm of batting. Now he's such a good batter, such a good player of pace. Obviously got his maiden test century in this city 12 years ago in conditions that were incredibly difficult. You know, Mitchell Johnson at his best. A cracked fourth innings century, wasn't it? Yeah. So a great test innings actually. I think England are going to need all those things to come together. This is, this is the point when Ben Stokes is talking about has beens and stuff and you know where he's coming from. And it's not as if previous warm up periods were ideal. We were talking before we did this about the warm up games when we were in Townsville sort of nine years ago, whatever it was, and well eight years ago obviously.

And it was awful.

It was absolutely horrendous, a complete waste of time. It was even lower and slower than this. It was no preparation at all. And just putting the hours in the office doesn't mean you're producing anything, does it? So he's got a point in that respect. But at the same time you do need to get the rhythm, you do need to adjust to the bounce and the pace and the light and the temperature and actually everything's been very gentle. It's 25 degrees here today, which is. That might sound very hot back in England, but when England lost the Ashes in 2013 it was between 45 and 47. It is brutally hot here when it's, when it gets really hot and that takes some adjustment and I don't know can you do that? Coming from New Zealand where it was freezing and just playing three days in a park, I don't know. Neither seem ideal. That's what I say. Maybe they've provided the opposition, but maybe they need to do something to take charge of the facilities as well. I don't think that can be beyond the wit of humanity.

And we'll find out tomorrow, won't we, how England go. Because I think regardless of the conditions, any one of those, those top seven or any of England's batters actually, because I think one of their, the advantages they do have over the likely Australian team is at England's tail look stronger. I don't think any of those players, regardless of the way and in the conditions that they could make runs tomorrow would be worse off for it. Going into Hopter Stadium next Friday.

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That's it from Lyla Kill on the first day, England's first day of action on this Ashes tour. This warm up game against the England Lions. 382 all out the Lions. My thanks to George Debelle from the Cricketer we'll be we'll have test match special podcasts every day of this Ashes tour. Make sure you're subscribed so you know every time that we upload. That's it from Lyla Kill. We'll speak to you next time.

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