Wickets galore but Gay stands tall

You're listening to the TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

So, close of play on the second day of this first Test match at Lord's. Well, the wickets continued to tumble, 17 wickets in the day, but a full day's, uh, play and over 300 runs scored as well. And the upshot is that England are in a strong position. They've set New Zealand 254 to win. They are 36 for 3 at the close of play, and England taking a big wicket just before the close with Kane Williamson. Plum LBW job, beauty from Josh Tung, out for 18. England 226 all out. Good day for Emilio Gay making 57, and that after England had cleaned up the New Zealand lower order, all out for 113. So 52 for 4 from New Zealand today. Jonathan Agnew is with me, Michael Vaughan is with me. Well, this Test match is still on fast forward.

It is. And you say it's a big wicket of Williamson, of course, but it's also really handy to get rid of the night watchman as well, because they can hang around, they can be annoying, uh, when play resumes. So the fact that he's actually been dispensed with as well means that England could get stuck in. Fresh bowlers, uh, new batsmen, new, new, you know, middle order batsmen coming out. It's perfectly set up for England. I mean, they will still be nervous, you know, 218 is not a lot of runs. And okay, you look down at who could do that, well, you know, look at the way that New Zealand, um, that middle order played here last time, Mitchell, Blundell, you know, they had terrific series here. There are still capable batsmen to come for New Zealand, those who, who can score, you know, hundreds. But, uh, this pitch, um, I think I'll join— I have joined the chorus of saying that this is a really poor pitch. This is, this is not a standard of pitch you'd expect for a Lord's Test match, and they've got to do something about it. You know, they can't keep playing on, on this particular strip, I'm afraid, and it's going to cost them a lot of money. And while they're weighing up the fact that you can't play on on a relayed pitch for 3 years and all that stuff, and they've got 3 Test matches next year. You know, it's— that's irrelevant. It's going to cost them. They're going to have 2 3-day Test matches on pitches like this. The MCC needs to decide what its priorities are, and a priority is not having a Lord's Test match lasting 3 days.

For those who've not been with us for the first couple of days, just explain what is wrong with this surface.

Everything. I mean, yeah, it's, it's the, the bounce is uneven, there's too much seam movement, uh, it's, and it's nipping quickly. That's the thing also. I mean, the number of bowls and LBWs suggests two things. First, that the ball is really jagging about, uh, it's doing it quickly, and it's doing it at heights that are hitting stumps and hitting pads. And then that, that Bethel delivery today, you know, was, was just, you know, utterly unplayable. And here at the other end, he'd been receiving balls from O'Rourke. Yes, he's a tall man, he's entitled to get the ball to bounce, but not from just short of a length, almost up into the throat. You know, it's, it's, it's doing both. It's not just a case of cracks and therefore you get that uneven bounce of the ball sometimes darts along. You know, this, this is, this is just not— it's not a pitch that's good for Test cricket.

No, it's not. And I think they'll be the first to admit that they've, they've not quite got it right. Um, you know, Test match cricket is, is meant to be a test. It's, it's not a test for the bowlers this week because it's too easy. There's been times in Test cricket where it's been too easy for the batters, so you want a fair balance. This isn't a fair balance between, uh, bat and You know, you look at someone like Emilio Gay, you know, and metrics in sport, you hear about it, you know, data analysts. And, you know, he's 57. I mean, what is it worth? You know, there's been two half-centuries in the Test match. Harry Brook had lives, you know, he had it twice. He had one moment today, Emilio, where just after lunch, Matt Henry didn't review an LBW that would have been out. But all right, someone say he got a bit lucky, snipped one. But actually, Darren Mitchell didn't get a hand on the ball. So I thought he played beautifully. On a pitch that is so tricky. Yeah, I mean, you've got a great, great player in Joe Root who looks out of sorts. You've got a great, great player in Kane Williamson. What's he got? He's just got out for 18, didn't get so many in the first. Anyway, he got nought in the first things. You know, you're talking great players that are going out to bat and make it look so difficult because it is. So, um, yeah, the MCC know that this pitch isn't up to standard.

It didn't even look right. I mean, at the toss, did it? I mean, we talked about old hair transplants and all those sorts of things because it, it, it doesn't look like a Lord's pitch. It's got Well, it's like, like, yeah, like implanting, you know, hair into bald people's heads as they did back in the '70s. Those sort of—

oh, they're still doing that, Jonathan, but not with those obvious little runs of—

it's like a— I might change that analogy. I'll change it to a recently drilled field in which the crops are starting to sprout with lots of soil around them. It It just did not look like an evenly grassed pitch.

I feel, uh, I go back a long time ago when I was playing, I never ever— I think the West Indies in 2001, it was nipping, but it was a week where it's really kind of muggy and cloudy. I actually feel sorry for the batters having to come out at the home of cricket with a— this is the best place to play cricket, and I just feel very fortunate that I didn't have to bat on many pitches like this.

So inside those those two dressing rooms, will the batters be thinking— that might not necessarily be saying it, possibly they will, you know, later on when they're gathering for dinner or what have you, they'll be chatting about the surface. Will they be thinking, actually, this is not— I'm not having this. Yeah, this is not the way to play it.

Yeah, they'll be thinking about winning the game, you know. England will be thinking, right, we just need to keep it very simple. And that's why I say it's not a challenge for the bowlers, just run up and hit a length, you know, change your angles every now and again, you know, that the pitch will do the rest. That's not Test cricket, that's not skill, that's not kind of testing physicality or your skill sets, uh, and they know that. The bowlers have got a week where they've got plenty in their favor, um, but the batters from both teams are probably around the dinner table tonight going, oh, this is tricky. But New Zealand have to go, okay, we need 218 runs on this pitch of what we've seen. What is the best way for us to get those 218? And I would say swinging. I honestly think if you look at Jameson, the way that he played, look at the way that Ollie Robinson came out and played, suddenly all the field gets spread And then there's more ones and twos because there's not fielders close to the bat. You know, bowlers start to go short, you can get a couple of ways to the boundary. I think if you play— and we've just seen Kane Williamson, I think probably up there with one of the great technicians— if he's getting done by a ball and it wasn't his technique that was at fault, the ball just thudded, it seemed, and thudded into the back pad. Nothing he can do about that. If I'm watching that from that New Zealand dressing room, go, wait a minute, our greatest technician is getting out in that fashion. I'm not going to allow that to happen tomorrow. I'm going to go out and play a few shots. And if I was New Zealand, I'd get everyone in tonight and go, right, to get 218 runs, anyone got any ideas? Come on, all around the dressing room, how are we going to get these runs? And I bet you most of them would go, do you know what, Kyle looked like the biggest threat in the first, and Glenn was probably the biggest. Harry Brook, you know, Emilio, when he started to play a few shots, they're going to have to get England's field spread to give them any chance. So it's going to be a big gamble early, but I see that's the only way of New Zealand getting anywhere close to this.

But also preying on England's confidence, you know, if, if that, if if suddenly a partnership does develop, and especially that there are some shots being played, then the ashes will come back. Yes. And, and, you know, England are going to be really challenged.

Yeah, Jameson went to play baseball. Ollie Robinson, I didn't see him bowl one short ball last night. Suddenly started to bowl short, the ball was going into the stand, and suddenly, uh, Josh Tong bought a slow ball from the pavilion that went into the stands. Yeah. So bowlers do panic when someone comes out and plays completely, especially with the confidence levels of England.

I mean, if they slip up now You can just see that, you know, it's on a knife edge really.

Karl Jamieson making 38 from 29 balls, and he hoofed a couple into the stands off Ollie Robinson. Remarkable shot down the ground as well.

You'd almost break it down realistically to chase 218 if you did it the old way, 70 overs. Do you think any batting unit can survive 70 overs on that pitch to get to— absolutely not. I'd go, can we get them in 40 overs? Go at 5, you know, 40 overs to bat on a pitch chasing 218, it's, you know, with 7 wickets remaining, it's it's damn easy than batting for 70 overs. So I'd be taking the gamble if I was there.

Yeah, but Mitchell's positive, Blundell's positive, Phillips is positive, Jameson's positive, and they've got the players who could score at that sort of rate.

What did you like about Emilio Gay? You said he played really well. What is it you see in him? What did you see in him today?

I just— I always study body language, and that's body language before play as well. And I think he looks very comfortable in, in the shirt. I think he's looked very comfortable in the surroundings this last week. Um, he clearly is a player, and this is why over the last few years when players have been just kind of picked from nowhere without the experience, I look at Emilio Gheiser at the right, you know, he's been at Northampton, done well. He's been at Durham and done well. He's got plenty of runs in the last few years. He knows how to score, and he knows himself, and he knows his game. And I just watched down today. I thought, wait a minute, yesterday your front foot was going quite a bit further over, and he kind of came across the line and ball nipped, and he snicked. I thought, well, that's a bit vulnerable. Today he didn't do it as much. You know, he was better aligned. He had a real positivity about back and forth today, and it wasn't easy because the ball was going up and down. But when the ball was there to hit, and he didn't come out the traps and fly, you know, he had to work hard. He got a boundary down off his hip, and then suddenly had to work and work and work, and he had to wait for a short ball. And then the short ball came. He didn't try and whack it, he just timed it. It. I thought, well, that's a good sign, because his eyes didn't light up and he just timed it to the boundary. Then he gets a full one and he timed it away. Um, I just like the way he looks in terms of his mentality. His body language is excellent, and he, he just looked like he was enjoying the occasion, which is what you want to see from him.

I totally agree. Those last 20 runs or so he scored, you could see him really start to blossom. He played a lovely little cunning shot, and I mean, a bowler might normally say, well, come on, he's fiddled. I think he played that lovely shot. He played absolutely deliberately.

Lovely little felt for it, ran it away down through third There I say, Jonathan, he got to 50 and around the wicket, I think it was Nathan Smith, and he bowled him a ball. It was outside off full and he was over to the offside and he played the shot through midwicket, went for 4, and I went, that's Alistair Cook.

Well, do you know, I've had the same discussion with Isha. I think he's copied Cookie too, by the way he sort of moves around the crease. There's a lot of Alistair Cook in that, uh, and, and, and the way that he— the way the areas that he scores. Well, a left-handed opener is probably going to score in those areas, um, But I— but same school, same coach, enough of an age gap to think—

similar height—

all of that. It is. I mean, I'm not putting any pressure on to say he's going to score all those runs of Cookie, just saying that actually you can see where he's— where he's— who was watched and who is trying to copy. Because we all, we all copy our heroes, don't we? You know, I was Peter Lever running into bowl, you know, all those things when you're a kid and you look at somebody who you really admire. And he's obviously been looking a lot at Cookie, I'd say.

Well, let's hear if he's a better talker than Alistair. He's with Alison Mitchell.

Emilio, half century on your Test debut, congratulations. How hard did you have to work for those runs on this pitch?

Yeah, obviously, um, tough day. I think, you know, pitch had its demands, and I think that's the beauty of Test cricket, I guess, is like the challenges that it brings. Um, I think the most important thing was just trying to embrace it and see it as an opportunity. I think when it's a low-scoring game 20 partnerships and little, little bits of momentum there are massive. So yeah, I had to work hard with the new ball, but I think against the attack that New Zealand have to offer with the skill they bring, it's always going to be tough. So yeah, I think it was nice to get a 50 partnership there with Ducky, you know, both Northampton boys. So that was good. And yeah, no, really, really happy and hopefully we can put some pressure on tomorrow.

You've experienced all sorts of roller coasters across this brief 2 days so far. What was it like in the dressing room when the wickets tumbled after you were dismissed?

Yeah, I think naturally games ebb and flow. I think obviously seeing Rooty get out and after me, I was kicking myself a little bit. Rooty and Brooky getting out because the conditions were probably perfect for a set batter. So I was slightly disappointed with that. But yeah, I thought the way Jamie Smith Smudge and Robbo put that partnership together. That was massive. I think, like I said, small partnerships were huge and that partnership then, that shift of momentum with Smudge coming back in really put us back in the driving seat. So yeah, I think it's naturally obviously new to the dressing room, but such a relaxed dressing room. There's that calmness and confidence that the next man will come in and do the job. So it was calm and relaxed. And yeah, we managed to put a score together in the end and 3 wickets tonight. We're in the driving seat.

Yeah.

To get the wicket of Kane Williamson, then the Nightwatchman, I suppose a bonus on top. But how big to get Kane?

Oh, massive. Yeah. I mean, I was at short leg just trying to soak it all in. Kane Williamson, one of my heroes growing up, batting there and the crowd getting behind us. All of that was brilliant. It's a massive wicket again, just late in the night and then getting the Nightwatchman there. I mean, tomorrow morning, if he plays a few shots, it'll be frustrating. So yeah, Tange and the rest of the lads there were brilliant. Robbo with the new ball. Just can't wait to get out there tomorrow, really.

You've got a real close-up view there at short leg. How's the wicket playing now? How do you think it will play going into tomorrow?

I think there's a bit of, you know, up and down bounce, which is we can use in our favor. We've got some height in our attack. I think that'll play on their minds. I think when, you know, you put a partnership together and the ball gets a little bit older, it's definitely a nice scoring wicket. It's just, you know, every other ball, if you put it in the right area, may, like we've seen with the bounce, go up. A couple may go slightly lower, but we've got a— that's a skill in itself to get the most out of that wicket. And I think we've got the bowlers to do that. I think tomorrow will be similar to today. I don't know what the weather's like. If there's some overcast conditions, then that's great for us, but if not, It's about being patient and then taking our chances. And that was probably the best thing about being at Shortleg day one, was taking that catch. And that was as easy as it comes, but it felt like it was in the air for 2 days. So yeah, no, hopefully we can use the conditions to our advantage tomorrow.

Have you done much at Shortleg in your career?

No, not really. Yeah, Durham, I've not done a lot, but at Northants a few years ago, I did it a little bit, but Yeah, Baz and Stokes, he said about doing short leg and I wasn't going to say no, so I had to do it. So I've really enjoyed it. It's been good.

What kind of a short leg are you? Did you have a bit of a conversation going with Kane Williamson when he was there in front of you?

No, I just let them get on with it. I just keep my head down and try and do the job. But no, I've enjoyed it. I think with spin it's a bit different if they're sweeping, but against the seamers it's quite fun in there. So yeah, I'm enjoying it.

And what has this whole experience been like as being part of an England side at a Test match and a Lord's Test match, no less?

Yeah, awesome. I mean, my parents have been here the last 2 days, family have been here and it's great. It's nice to get, play a nice shot and you get a real, real cheer behind you, which has been great. Obviously the Test matches here in England are so well supported that, yeah, it makes it even more special. And at Lord's, I mean, today, obviously the Ruth Strauss Foundation, we're walking, walking out and all the the fireworks are going off and we're all in red. I've seen that on TV so many times, so to be part of that was amazing. But yeah, I think this has been such a good experience. I mean, hopefully we can try and win, and looking like hopefully it could be tomorrow. But yeah, it's been great so far. I'm just trying to take it all in and go out there and, you know, put my chest out and do the best I can for England.

Does confidence come naturally to you? I know you spoke before the match about nerves and almost embracing those rather than letting them, you know?

Yeah, I think, look, I have been nervous, but I think the opportunity to play for England and put this shirt on is like such a cool thing. It's more, just more excitement than nerves. Obviously I have been nervous, like I said, but I've dreamed of this for years. I'm not going to lie, I've absolutely dreamed of moments like this. So being around this environment, I just can't see it as any other, like, Anything else is just an opportunity to do well. Obviously, like I said, I'm nervous, but I'm embracing that. Everyone's nervous, you know. I'm sure Rooty and Kane probably nervous, you know, everyone's nervous, but that's part of the sport and part of when you do well, it's so good. But like I said, I'm trying to contribute, and in a low-scoring game, to get some runs today, I suppose, makes it a bit more nicer that those runs hopefully can be in a winning winning position.

And when you come into this environment, is there any, anyone in particular that's helped you to feel at home stepping into an England dressing room?

Yeah, obviously it's nice to have Stokesy there with that Durham connection. I think Baz has actually been great. Like he's been so, what's the word, encouraging of the way I play. Like, you know, just encouraging and trying to get me to play the way I want to play, you know, and help England win games of cricket. Whether it be striking at 35 or 75, you know, just don't try and change the way you've played for Durham. And hearing that from Baz last week at Loughborough really gave me the confidence to go out there today and not have a pressure to score like maybe Harry Brook or Ben Duckett, who do it so naturally. You know, if I'm getting stuck in and maybe not scoring as quickly as I'd like, that's absolutely fine. And having that backing probably was the thing I needed to hear, um, and that's really helped.

Well done on your half century. Good luck for the rest of this match.

No, thank you. Cheers. Thank you, guys.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

That's Emilio Gay talking to Alison Mitchell. So a few nerves around, obviously, but quite a confident talk.

Well, I was just listening to that thinking, isn't that refreshing, you know, to hear someone on his debut come out and talk like that? You know, it's fantastic. I mean, and it suggests that that, you know, we watch people coming out and playing Test matches early in their careers. You can see those that are nervous and those are a bit consumed by nerves and those who wonder if they are actually good enough to do it. Well, there's always that kind of a question, but when you're as confident and talking like that, the odds are you're going to be okay. Yeah, he's going to be all right. There are some technical issues, clearly, because you're stepping up, you're going up the ladder, and you will be exposed, and there'll be video of you now that all the bowlers will be working on and all those sorts of things. You know, they're looking for weaknesses, but But yeah, he sounds a confident young man, doesn't he? And there's someone who's just loving it. And isn't that great? Here's someone who actually is just absolutely loving every minute of playing for England. It's fantastic.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, bring it on as far as Emilio Gay is concerned. One of 6 wickets today for Nathan Smith. He took 6 for 70, and he's also been speaking to the BBC.

Well, many congratulations on a fine bowling performance. What do you see the match situation, first of all?

Yeah, obviously the game's moved pretty quickly in the first couple of days. Unfortunately lost probably one too many wickets there tonight, but I mean, the pitch is offering quite a bit for the seamers. Today I think we felt, you know, when the sun was out it was a little bit easier to bat, and then obviously when the clouds rolled in, yeah, it was offering a lot. So hopefully tomorrow we can get a good string of nice weather and put on a few partnerships.

I won't tell you about the final forecast then anyway. But in terms of that pitch, it does feel as though matches just move incredibly quickly generally now. But is this a good pitch for cricket, Test cricket?

I mean, it's hard to say. It's certainly offering a lot for seamers in terms of lateral movement, and now we're seeing a little bit more variable bounce as well. Again, if you get through the new ball and the sun's out, it is pretty good to bat as well, as we've seen, you know, Milly O'Gay and Ben Duckett put on a partnership there at the start, which I thought they batted well and negated the new ball. But yeah, when the clouds roll in, there's certainly a little bit more on offer.

Good fun though, as a fast bowler.

Yeah, it's certainly good fun, especially— I mean, bowling with the Duke in general, it's good fun. It feels like you've sort of got a mode of dismissal in all the time compared to back home, you know. You feel like when the ball gets a little bit older, you've sort of got to go to the short ball or whatever. But at the moment, it feels like you sort of can keep all three stumps in play over here, which which is great.

Talk to me about this New Zealand bowling attack because it is so varied. It feels like you've got so many bases covered. Oh, it's—

yeah, it's nice when you've got a couple of guys 6'7", 6'8" running into the other end, you know. And then, yeah, I think it complements me and Matt Henry really well, you know, the points at which they come through, coming through at different heights. And obviously Willow Rawk bowls at 150kms/h, so, um, yeah, we're in a good spot at the moment with our bowling lineup. So hopefully the batters tomorrow can do a job.

Yeah, where do you see the target? Because England looked like they were wobbling, then got up to a reasonable total in the context of the game.

Yeah, if we're honest, I don't think we bowled as good as we could have in that third innings there. 250, I still think we can chase that if we bat well. But yeah, I think we maybe just weren't quite at our best with the ball there for a good portion of the innings.

Back-to-back sixers in Test match cricket. I mean, And not many bowlers can say that.

No, it's good. It's nice to contribute. Nice to contribute. And yeah, it was obviously good to put the ball in an area for a while there and get the rewards.

And Lord's Honours Board. I mean, it is a bit different, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. It is a little bit different. It's obviously stuff you dream of as a kid. So it's cool to achieve that and nice to contribute. And yeah, it's cool walking in and seeing my name up there now.

Many congratulations.

Thanks. That's Nathan Smith talking to Henry Moran. 6'4", 17. He might have a part to play with the bat on the third or fourth day, depending on the weather. On Saturday. Andy Saltzman is with me. What have you noticed statistically, Saltz? Two short first innings in this Test match.

Yes, New Zealand bowled out in 29.5 overs. England in their first innings bowled out in 39.4 overs. So 69.3 overs between the two sides. That's the sixth shortest ever combined first innings where both teams have been bowled out in Test history. We've had over 2,500 matches. The Melbourne Test On Boxing Day, it was 75.1 overs for the two first innings. That's in 8th place. 5 of the 8 shortest first innings in Test matches have taken place in September 2022. So I think that tells you quite a bit about the nature of modern Test cricket, the collapsibility of sides when conditions are difficult. Was New Zealand's 5th shortest ever completed innings. For England, it was their, uh, the 2nd quickest they've bowled an opposition team out in the first innings of a home test since 1952, only the day when Stuart Broad skittled Australia for 60 at Trent Bridge in 2015 has been shorter. That was 18.3 overs. And we've seen a lot— we've seen the stumps come into play a lot. 20 bowls and LBWs so far. I think it's 11 bowls to 9 LBWs. The stumps flying is one of the great sights in cricket. I wish they had the, the Zinger bails and the Zinger stumps lighting up for added visuals, but spectacular. But the record most bold and LBWs ever in a Test in England was on this ground in 2007. That was 23. So there's quite a good chance, 7 wickets still to go, that that record could be, uh, could be matched. There were, uh, there were 20 in, um, sorry, 19 in the game last year between England and India. So it's been an issue for Laws, the sort of pitches bouncing low and a bit inconsistently. And I think that stat, you know, with so few overs bowled in this Test, 20 bold and LBWs, shows how the batters haven't been able to trust the bounce and the bowlers have taken full toll of that.

Anything else?

Well, um, specifically the ball to Jacob Bethell— we talked about this quite a bit during the course of the day— um, it was 30 centimeters off the ground according to the ball tracking data when it hit the stumps, and yet it pitched quite short of a length, over 9 meters from the— from, uh, from Bethell's stumps. And I looked on the Cricviz ball tracking data— all the balls in the last 20 seasons of Test cricket in England that have pitched between 9 and 10 meters from the stumps— they're trying to compare like with like— short, shortish balls. That is the lowest any of those balls have ever bounced over 11,500 deliveries in that sample. So there really wasn't a lot that, uh, that Bethel could do about it. And then Cricviz have what they call PitchViz rating, which sort of measures the, I guess, the reliability, consistency of a pitch. I'm not sure their methodology, but it sort of gives you an idea of how difficult a pitch is. And over the course of the first 2 days, comparing first 2 days of Test in England, this is the second most, uh, worst-rated pitch in a Test in England. This goes about 135 games going back, again, about, about 20 years. So it has been a fiendishly difficult, um, difficult surface.

The MCC have been asked to comment on state of this Lord's pitch, and their response has been no comment.

Okay, um, just, uh, Josh Tung took his, uh, his 50th wicket, uh, in Tests with his first delivery, uh, of the day when he bowled out Glenn Phillips. He's now up to 53. In terms of most wickets by an England bowler in the first 10 Tests of, uh, of his career. Today he's overtaken some legends of the English game— Fred Truman, George Lohmann, a 19th century great. He's now level with Ian Botham on 53, and that's the most by any England bowler in his first 10 Tests since the 1950s. So a fantastic start, uh, for him.

Okay, thanks to Andy Saltzman, Jonathan Agnew, and Michael Vaughan. That's it for this episode of the TMS Podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode We're back on air at 10:30 AM Saturday morning for the third day of the Lord's Test.

So much sport today, and all the goals as they go in up and down the league.

This is Five Live Sports.

It's all eyes to the lights and foot to the floor. It's not his stopper. Everyone standing around the 18th green. That is sensational. He serves to the center, and that will do it. Oh, the right hand, and the former champion is That is extraordinary stuff. They put on a show for us tonight. He gets on his knees and kisses the turf.

Five Live Sports, the home of the world's greatest sporting events.

That is the full-time whistle.

Listen on BBC Sounds.