Will Ben Stokes captain England again?

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So after England's victory in the first test against New Zealand at Lord's, the day after, the Monday evening, we heard a statement from the ECB telling us that Ben Stokes, the captain, and Gus Atkinson, the fast bowler, had been involved in an incident in a nightclub in the early hours of Monday morning. The ECB confirmed that Stokes and Atkinson had broken the team's midnight curfew, and there was an investigation underway. Now, what we later learned, that Stokes and Atkinson were present, um, when a member of the England security staff was struck by a Saracen's rugby player. The pair were subsequently made unavailable for this Test match, the second Test, pending that investigation. Rob Keating, the director of cricket, Brendan McCullum, the head coach, they've both spoken since. Neither of them have said that they expect or that they want Ben Stokes to return as England captain, but Brendan McCullum was pretty clear the other day when he was talking about his worry and concern for Ben Stokes. Stokes could play for Durham on Friday in the County Championship. Ryan Campbell, the Durham head coach, said yesterday that he's in good spirits. We don't know when the investigation by the ECB will conclude, but there's only 3 days between the end of this second test and the beginning of the third test at Trent Bridge. And after the ECB investigation, we'll also have an investigation from the cricket regulator as well. Agus, I'll start with you, where— because you've seen them all, um, I think dirt in the pockets, all right, okay, pedalo, yes, Zimbabwe, Textgate, where does this rank on the, the crisis?

It's interesting because it's— I mean, it is a mess, and I think what struck me about this to start with was, was a lot of people not quite getting why it's a serious issue. And by serious, I mean, look, we're talking about cricket. I mean, you know, there are serious issues of serious issues, let's be honest. But the reason that this has become what it has become is because of the context. And that's the real problem here with English cricket desperately trying to show that it's improved its image, which, let's face it, is really poor. Yeah. If you are the governing body of English cricket at the moment, it's a mess. You have a team of players, 6 of whom, as you've mentioned before, before this Test match, have been involved in alcohol-related instances. And let's face it, they've been pretty bad ones, frankly. I mean, you know, remember Ben Duckett wandering around Noosa. Obviously there's the Harry Brook business in New Zealand. I mean, there's, you know, these are really bad for the image of of English cricket. And the whole point of the curfew, which I've always hated the idea of a curfew, I mean, you should not need a curfew in an international sports team. You really shouldn't. I mean, the players should know what they've got to do, and they should, you know, they should be able to act responsibly enough. But the reason for bringing that in and for everybody to buy into it is to try and address that issue and the image of the game. We're cleaning it up. Although you've never heard the ECB in any way admitting that there's an issue, but clearly, you know, obviously there is. So, so for the captain therefore to break it is serious, and, and it is serious. But where it goes from here, it's, it's— the whole thing has lingered far too long for me. I mean, there are people, you know, in responsible positions with, with, within the setup who surely should be able to investigate something like this, which is after all like a team breaking of a protocol, isn't it? That's surely, you know, you've got, you've got managing directors, you've got chief executives. I mean, how many more people do you need actually to actually to consider this? You've got an eyewitness in the security guard who's, who was there anyway. Surely there'd be CCTV, there'll be all these things. Why hasn't this thing just been settled? And, and I think, you know, we, we, we, we don't know where this is going. And the fact that it hasn't been settled, I think most people would agree, is worrying because nobody that I've come across— and I certainly don't want this to be the end of Ben Stokes, you know, we need Ben Stokes to be playing for England and, you know, I think we need him to be captain. He's been an inspirational leader. The Ashes was clearly massively disappointing, but of the three heads on the block, if you want to call it that, uh, Key, McCullum, and Stokes, He seemed to be perfectly safe. You know, it was the other two really who took the blame, if that's the right word, for the preparation and all those things that we've talked about a million times. Stokes seemed to be the most secure. However, just to go back to that context, for the captain therefore, with all of that in the background, to have done this is a serious issue because the board have to try and address this image issue and demonstrate that their team are not out there on the razz every night. That's the image, and they've got to do something about it. So when the captain does it, people have to understand that's why this has now become a serious issue.

For everything that Aga has just said there, the context, image, what might be going on in the background, is this now more than just about someone being out too late?

I think from the reaction and the press conferences that we've seen, I just wonder whether there is a little bit of something that's gone on. You know, maybe the management group are looking at Ben and thinking, oh, can we do without Ben in the team anymore? I'm completely with Aggers that I can't think of someone who's got at least a little bit of credit, if not a huge amount of credit in the bank to come back as a captain. If you go back over the last 4 years, of this team. They've had some incredible moments, and obviously in the last couple of years they've not managed to get over the line against India and obviously against Australia. So they haven't won the big trophies, but they've won plenty of games. And you'd have to argue the combination of Ben and Baz has been a very strong, entertaining one. He's just not been able to get over the line in the big series. I don't know, but I get a sense that something's happened with that relationship. Um, you know, the The director of English cricket, uh, Rob Key, he, he, he got asked 4 times to say that Ben Stokes would come back as captain if the investigation was a, a, a thorough one. And, uh, it's not going to be a positive one for Ben because he's, he's done the wrong thing by going out too late. But if, if all he's done— I just keep thinking, if all he's done is gone out an hour or so too late, there's no way in a million years that that is enough for him not to captain England again. You know, the fact that he hasn't released a statement, or the ECB-Ben combination have not released a statement of an apology, you know, that gives me an indication that he's not happy with the way that it's been dealt with.

Um, that could have taken the heat out, couldn't it?

Yeah, the ECB clearly aren't happy because they've not been able to get Ben to agree of something. Clearly they would have had conversations. I think I heard the other day they're speaking to him every single day. I think that The emotions would have been very angry from the ECB management, understandably. The captain would have been involved in this kind of reset, this reprogramming the protocols of what's going to happen to this England side going forward. Um, there's so much that has happened to this England side over the course of a short space of time under this management. You know, you actually look at the whole reset and think, well, what's actually changed? You've got all the same leadership group for this new reset. So once your captain breaks that, I thought last week it had been quite a— it's not easy because there's a lot of conversations to be had, but I thought it'd been quite a simple procedure of getting the captain in a room, you release a statement, he apologizes, yet the skipper might get 2 games suspension, Gus Atkinson as a player gets 1, and we look forward to having Ben back against Pakistan later in the summer. Because that's not happened, This is why we're talking. And I think over the course of a week, generally when you do a press conference in tough times, you try and not give the story more legs. Well, I think they've given us quite a few spiders in terms of the legs that they've developed because we're all having this conversation because we're all questioning whether it is likely, and I hope not, that Ben Stokes may never number one captain England again. And there's got to be a doubt because we're having this conversation that Ben Stokes might never play for England again, which I can't see that's going to be right for English, English cricket.

Do we not though, Cookie, sometimes just need to take what we're told at face value? That Rob Key and Brendan McCullum generally, genuinely can't make a judgment on the future because the investigation's not being concluded, and that they are worried about Ben Stokes's well-being?

You can't be, but you could— but they were given so many opportunities to say we want Ben Stokes back after he's done his punishment, or is after the regulator's done his bit. And now whether that is this next game or the game after, or whenever, they were given so many opportunities to say that and not one of them could say that. So you talk about we take everything at face value, what is there to take at face value? Because they're asked on a number of occasions, do you want Ben Stokes back? And then they didn't answer the question. So now we're now discussing it purely on speculation about what's happened. And this is why it's an awkward conversation, because someone will be listening to this who knows everything. That's Ben, Baz, Rob, whoever listening, going, they're talking absolute nonsense, because if only they knew. But we don't know, so we have to then start guessing ourselves and start piecing it together. The thing which is— I'm a little bit different from Agus on this one, actually. The Noosa And I go back to Noosa because it's kind of like the start of it. My first initial reaction to seeing the lads when they're 2-nil down at 12 o'clock in the afternoon. Yes, they were given downtime. Yes, they were off. But on an Ashes tour, the most best tour you can be on, and certainly enjoy yourself. But when you're 2-nil down, the public look of lads in shorts, flip-flops, and sunglasses having trays of beers taken to you. Was a bad look for the England cricket team. Even though how hard I know these guys work, how hard they train. And clearly in theory, you start putting a tour together and you're like, right, yeah, we've worked really hard for the first bit, they've got that bit wrong, the preparation. Then we have 2 games, Test matches, and then, you know, we want to save a bit of energy, give a regroup, 3 days in New Zealand. What a great idea. Actually is a good idea on a long 8-week tour. Never been done before, never been thought of before. It's more nets, they keep the group together. But then that is when you have to be a bit flexible and go, "God, we're 2-nil down. I can't have beers taken at 12 o'clock." If you want to go and do that, you cannot be seen. Even on an Essex pre-season tour, I'm going to say an Essex pre-season tour, which is purely and utterly has been used as team bonding for the last 10 years since I've been on it, and cricket, because everyone's been playing cricket, was purely just there to get them back together. We were told, and certainly, "Do not drink in the hotel pool bar." Yeah. At lunchtime. Like, there are rules. They're like, they're like, it's common sense. Because we had England, Essex supporters coming out going, and we didn't want to see our image of just enjoying ourselves, even how hard we were working. So I'm a little bit different on this occasion. England have won a Test match, 10 days gone, and he's gone out to celebrate because he's great, because they're allowed to. Yes, he's missed the curfew, so he's made a mistake, but I don't know. I did something with Tuffers before this, before this test match, and I asked a question to them, said, would anyone be mind Ben Stokes after what's happened in that previous game of him coming out and capturing? Everyone said, no, we want him out there, we want him out. The public image, I think, on this one has taken— not to Australia, but on this one has actually taken Ben Stokes.

This is, this is a real problem for the ECB, you know, and the leadership group, because, you know, again, we're speculating about what they've done. And did the CEO last week, you know, say to Ben Stokes Again, I don't know. Would like you to resign? I'm not sure. Again, speculation. Until we get a thorough statement from both parties, we're going to carry on talking. You know, the one thing I will say is that, you know, I think it's very important. Sometimes time is a healer. And there was a huge amount of anger from Ben's side as well and the ECB side. I hope over time that kind of feathers out. The one thing— No. That, you know, the public and the cricketing fans out there will want is Ben Stokes playing cricket. And this is why the ECB have got themselves now in a position that if they take Ben Stokes out of that position for the fact that he's gone out drinking just an hour or so too late, and they've suspended him as well, um, which I agree with— I think you clearly have to be punished as a captain when you break your protocols.

Suspended investigation, not suspended yet.

Well, don't get me started. I'm with Aggers on that. I just don't quite see how you need a cricket regulator to deal with a situation like this.

On the Tuesday, on the Wednesday—

You know, the CEO, the director of cricket, they get in the room, they get the security guy there, tell us what happened, you're part of our management group, all right, Ben, you were outside apparently, you weren't in the kind of the fray in the nightclub, sort it out, we suspend you for 2, we suspend Gus for 1, and hopefully you'll be back. If you're good enough and you're playing well enough, you'd be back as captain against Pakistan. I thought it was quite a simple procedure.

Just picking up on what Alistair said, Jonathan. Firstly, the idea of a curfew, and secondly, there will be people listening to this now shouting at the radio saying, "What is the problem with having a drink after you've won a Test match?" None. What I think is interesting as well with the collection of you three here is the different eras in which you played the game. And Cookie, you finished in 2018. Agus, when did you start? Sorry, a while ago. But how attitudes have changed, and I guess my question is, has cricket been slow to change in comparison to other sports, or is it different?

It's a really good question, and I mean, I just want to make it clear, I have got absolutely no problem with, with players celebrating a win. I mean, and, and the, the pressure and the tension and the relief of having won that game is fantastic. You just, you just don't go and do it as they did it. It's as simple as that. Then there is a curfew because of the way that they, that they've behaved. I hate curfews. It shouldn't be there, but that, that's, that's what's been put there because of what's happened in the past. Therefore, you can't, you can't, you can't go breaking it if you want to, you know. And they started it 1 o'clock in the afternoon, didn't they? So I mean, it's a fair old session. Just go to in your room, you know, you can go up to midnight. How much longer, how much longer do you want? But actually, I mean, I've been looking at this. So there was in, in 1983, I think it was, the Sex, Drugs and Rock and Roll Tour of New Zealand. Uh, sadly I wasn't on that. Um, but yeah, there were lots of reports from that, and that was when journalism changed a bit. The cricket journalism changed, and news reporters were sent out. And there was a massive character called Ian Botham who was— who worked, I think I'm right in saying, for Sun, Mirror, Sun. There was just like a tabloid war over Ian, you know, because he was such a— he was such a huge character. And, and, and yes, the tabloids really projected him, and they were after him, you know. Um, and it was clearly very difficult for for Ian, who, well, I mean, he was, I suppose he was sort of targeted. But it just seemed that the attitude in those days was more, well, they're naughty boys. David Gower flying his Tiger Moth, he didn't fly it, but sitting in the Tiger Moth buzzing the ground, you know, always treated with humour. Andrew Flintoff here today on his pedalo, you know, there's, oh, boys will be boys. It's as if it was kind of treated like that. That in those days. And you're right that cricket hasn't really moved on. I mean, were you on that, Andrew Fletcher? Yes, you were captain of the Freddie Pedlow, weren't you?

I was, yes.

You know, what time was that? 2 in the morning or something? He launched a Pedlow off. We just lost to New Zealand, I think, in the World Cup, didn't we? And it was kind of seen as, you know, a bit of a giggle by people outside of it. I mean, you guys weren't— I mean, you dropped in for the game, didn't you? He was put out to the press.

He got the vice captaincy taken off him.

You're correct. So I mean, he was, but it was still like a bit of a, oh, you know. But therefore, I don't think that cricket really has moved on. Tours are long. The tours are a long time away from home. And they're every winter. So an average cricketer, and you know, they're away from home during the summers. You are away a lot. There's a lot of downtime, a lot of dead time. And, you know, what can they do? Apparently they play too much golf, that's criticized. Well, okay, so what else are we going to do for this downtime? I'm not saying that going out and drinking like that is an excuse, but the problem is that on these, this winter and now, it's just been too public. People have seen it, it's been out there and people have seen it.

Yeah, I mean, you go back to the Harry Brook situation, And I think the ECB will regret the way that they treated that situation where Harry was, you know, I think he had a bit of a fracas with a bouncer the night before a game, and he captained England that day.

Yeah.

Now I think Ben will probably be saying to the ECB, wait a minute, Harry Brook, who was England captain the night before the game, went out and did what he's done. He's played every single England game since, and he only got a fine because the regulator came involved in January when The Telegraph exposed the story. So you can see from Ben's side, it was so— but this is a reset, and this is the point that the reset happened, and it happened after the, the winter, and the curfew was put in place. I was staggered actually last week when I heard that Gus Atkinson didn't know about the curfew. I know about the curfew. I think we all know about the curfew.

Yes.

I was staggered to hear that an England player didn't kind of realize what the curfew was.

I'm not having that for an excuse, but What you have to do, and the one thing I have learned through doing this job a long time, on those sorts of stories, you've got to front up and you've got to be honest. You have to, because otherwise it bites you. However far down the line, it's always far, far worse if you've not been open and honest to start with, you try to hide something or you try to make little excuses.

They did do that.

You have to be.

ECB got the statement out on Monday night.

Oh yeah, this time. Yeah, I actually think this time they have to. Start with this one.

We talk about Harry Brooke, where that was definitely a cover-up. That will just come back. And you just feel that everything since has actually— you go back to the cover-up, actually, and the way that people felt about that. And that, I think, has led, well, to the curfew and all these sorts of things. And that was their mistake back then. They didn't act, and they didn't make it public and done. Because then it's dealt with. End of.

Says we dealt well with it. It was a Monday night, but now it's another 8, 9 days.

No, I think to get it out was, was dealt with well, but since, I think they've, they've added far too many legs.

Yeah, so I'm not sure.

With a couple of press conferences where clearly Rob Key was under instruction not to give Ben Stokes 100% backing, as was Baz McCullum. Joe Root's not really said much about it really, as interim captain. So clearly that is the message from what I'm— again, speculation— from what I can read into it, that's the message from the ECB to all those that are getting interviewed, uh, make sure you don't say 100% that Ben Stokes will be coming back into—

That sounds like lawyers involved, isn't it? I don't know, but it must be, it must.

But I don't— look, maybe Ben from his side is, is, is, has been saying one or two things that, you know, is not been what they want to hear and vice versa, and then they've had a big hoo-ha. And as I said, hopefully over time that kind of fire from both sides will just kind of eke out and then be able to get their heads together and make sure— because it's all about, you know, the fans are the most important aspect of the game. England cricket fans are a huge part of our game, and I reckon if you went to every single one of them, I would say 99% of them would say we want Ben Stokes back our caps.

Absolutely. What would be interesting would be what the reaction of people who were in Australia who'd spent a lot of money to go, made a massive commitment to go and support the team. I, I reckon they will feel, you know, more moved or emotional about what's happened since because of what they saw there and their disappointment of that tour. And yet this, this kind of reset hasn't happened.

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Cookie and Michael, just on the subject of the captaincy, talk about the level that you sort of have to carry yourself at. So when there is a protocol And whether or not you, you agree with the idea of a curfew or not, but it was in place. How conscious were you two that you had to set the standard for your team? And I don't know, is that, is that hard? Is that an extra burden to carry?

Well, absolutely it's a burden, but it's what you sign up for. You're captain, you're judged on not just what you do on the pitch mainly, but how you want to operate, how you want your how you want people to look at the side. I mean, we had some great— as a player, as a captain, we were looked at in 2013, we won the Ashes as a side and everyone hated us. And I couldn't get my head around it. I couldn't get my head around the— you know, we won 3-nil maybe, could have won 4-nil, and yet we didn't feel any connection with the public. And then that was— and then you find out that when you lose 5-nil away from home and that connection's not there, there's not much love at all. So that was part of my reset in 2013-14, was trying to then get England fans back on our side. And it wasn't just about winning, it was about how we were as a group, how we were in public, not just when you were playing cricket. So absolutely it's important, it's absolutely vital that you get that side of it right, and that's what why it becomes all-encompassing, because it's not just the 8 hours or 9 hours when you're at the cricket ground.

Yeah, I mean, the most important part of captaincy, also obviously tactical, managing your team, managing your players, but it's having that incredibly strong relationship with your coach. You know, when an England team is operating well, the combination, you know, Strauss and Flower, Bayliss and Owen Morgan, You can never do— Nasser Hussain and Duncan Fletcher had a great relationship, myself and Duncan. And I've always looked at that and thought, when the captain and the coach are on the same wavelength and they speak to the public on the same kind of pathway and everything about the team, I go, yeah, we're all right, we're in a safe pair of hands. From this situation, I find it a bit of a worry for English cricket that the Ben Stokes-Baz McCullum relationship, the Ben Stokes-Rob Keeley relationship You know, on the back of what we saw in the press conference just, uh, 2-3 days ago from Baz and also from Rob Key last week, I, I, I would doubt whether that relationship or those relationships can be molded together again. So, and that'll be a concern for me.

So therefore, I'll start with you, Jonathan. Is Ben Stokes going to be England captain again?

Well, I hope so. I really, I really do. And, and the longer this whole thing drags on It's the more damaging that it is, isn't it? I mean, it's just, it shouldn't, we shouldn't be sitting here having to talk about this today. This should have been dealt with. And so inevitably you do wonder, you know, why do the ECB really not want Ben Stokes to be captain anymore? Surely not. But what's happened in the meantime for them not to give that backing? Is it because they can say, well, look, we've got to wait for the regulator and these various inquiries? Are they worried about what the regulator might say?

I think there's going to have to be a decision from the ECB's own investigation as to whether or not Stokes— a punishment for Ben Stokes and for Gus Atkinson— and whether or not they can return to play or Stokes can be captain. Because the regulator will be a long time— I think it'll be a long way down the line.

So just explain what the two things are. So why is there a separate ECB investigation and then it goes to a regulator for an investigation? Why are there two?

Well, there were two in with the Harry Brook situation as well. Because the initial fine and punishment to Brooke, they were part of an ECB. That was ECB. That was ECB and was only referred to the regulator later on. I guess there would be two things here in that there is an employment matter. Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson are ECB employees, whereas the regulator looks after the entire game. So that's why I would suggest there are two different investigations going on. And so yeah, I wouldn't confuse the regulator what they could do as a punishment, because that might come quite a long time down the road. As we saw with Brook, that took a little while, and there are all sorts of other cases actually floating around in the game at the moment.

It took a while because they brushed it under the carpet for 2 and a half months.

But the other thing, the regulator does take a long time sometimes to come to it.

But why did— why does it take so long? I don't understand why it's taking so long.

More important, why is the ECB one taking so long? That's the damaging one.

That's the—

that seems more ridiculous.

But the other— I don't understand the regulator.

Why is the regulator taking —so it goes back to that question of do we think Ben Stokes will be England captain?

That's not the question because the regulator— we're asking how— why is it taking so long at the regulator?

Do you think he will be?

I think the one question I think no one knows, but is does Ben Stokes want to be England captain? Like, does he want to be?

A few weeks ago he did.

He put out that very powerful statement. If Ben Stokes wants to be captain, or has he had a Kane Williamson moment? Do you know what I mean? Like, I don't know.

Can that happen?

Absolutely. But it doesn't— it seems strange to happen after in such a short space of time. You speak to Kane Williamson about it, not that I have, but, you know, talking to— he's been battling that for a while. But for everything from Ben Stokes, from that Instagram post, which, as I said to Agus, he seemed to communicate via his messages through Instagram about how upset he was about the Ashes and how much he's looking forward to coming back and putting it right. So look, can Ben Stokes captain? Do I think he should? If his heart is still in that job, then that— what happened on that one night shouldn't mean he can't be the captain again. And I, I'm pretty sure— and again, I'm again speculating, is this 40-minute series about speculating— is that, that all those players certainly want him him to be their leader. And I haven't, I haven't heard anything from players. Now I'm starting to now be a little bit concerned about the team management, whether they want him to captain. But certainly from the players, I haven't heard any whisper or anything. Ben Stokes is our captain, we love playing under him. And why wouldn't you? Because he seems to have that good character, like that character that people want to play. So I haven't really answered your question either. Sorry, Stefan.

I, I think it'll be an absolute travesty if he doesn't come back as England captain. I honestly do. I think he has got that much credit in the bank. I think this team needs him as a leader, as a captain. I think his tactical awareness of the game has been right up there with some of the best captains I've seen. You know, he's struggling with the bat in hand, but I think he can get that back. His bowling's been a revolution. He was the best bowler with Josh Tongue in the winter. The relationship with the coach and the director is an interesting one for me. They've got to try and iron that one out. There's many more at the ECB that haven't got that credit in the bank that are making this call. I absolutely think Ben Stokes should. Whether he will is out of our powers. It's not for us to decide whether he will, but I think I wouldn't want to be that person that says to the English cricket fan, Ben Stokes is not our captain anymore.

Or has something gone on on the Ashes tour about the style of how they want to play as a team between Stokes and McCullum, which is now, you know, as they were so aligned and then they weren't, then they in that Ashes they weren't aligned.

But in public on more than one occasion they have said we have not fallen out.

And then you're going talking about everything at face value, you're never going to come out on, in, on, in a press conference.

They're not going to publicly say, oh, by the way, the captain and coach are at loggerheads.

Exactly, they're never going to say that.

Okay, so in all of this, and in answering that question, How important is Joe Root's role in all of this?

Massive.

And I'll give you an example, Agus, because you and I were there in Rawalpindi in 2022. Remember when the whole team pretty much went down with illness the day before the game?

Right, yes.

And Root was the one who ended up effectively doing the captain's press conference the day before, and he was asked, well, if Ben Stokes can't play tomorrow or whatever, are you going to be captain? And he ran a mile from it. And there's been a couple of other occasions. I've got an unhealthy relationship I had an unhealthy relationship with the captaincy. I think he said that ship sailed with me, with me being captain again. Yesterday when he got asked, you know, can you see yourself doing this again, he didn't say that he does want it, but he didn't say that he doesn't want it either.

No, but he looks like he's enjoying it, and certainly chatting to him this morning, he had a big smile on his face, didn't he? And I mean, look, his role in this is huge, isn't it? And he's one of Ben Stokes's best friends. And so they're— I suspect they're probably talking quite a lot. And for a start, you know, I think I said earlier, I think, I think Root wants to make it clear that he's not kind of, you know, stabbing his mate in the back by becoming captain and making it easier for the board. But he— but there's nobody else. There is nobody. Who else could possibly captain England at the moment, you know? So it falls on the best player, the fellow who's been around a long, long time, to, to step up and kind of do, do everyone a favor. But I don't know what they're— these two—

I mean, if ECB, um, make a call that Ben can't come back in a leadership role, I, I think the only captain that he could probably play under is Joe, you know. And I don't see Ben—

might be able to persuade him to do it.

Yeah, maybe. I, I, I, I don't see Ben as the kind of character that would just walk back into that dressing room easy as a player.

Be very hard for a new captain to have Ben in the— in the—

yeah, I, I see him purely as the leader.

Yeah, he's such a big character.

Yeah, I think there's been many that have been able to, you know, Joe Root's a perfect example, being a captain for a period of time, then he gave it up and he's been a brilliant player for 4 years without it because he likes just being in that group, being the player. I would have found it very difficult going into a team after captaining for a while, being just a player. It's just my style of, of captaining, and I think Ben would struggle to be the player, but if there's one one really respected human being in that dressing room that he would do it for, I think it would be Joe Root.

How did you find it, Alistair, going back into the ranks after being captain?

Yeah, interesting. Interesting. I was probably somewhere in between, I think. I enjoyed it because there is way less pressure on you and you're not having to worry about it as much. But certainly I, towards— that's the reason I retired. It was just different. And I had no issue captain under Root at all. I mean, we had a great relationship, but there were certain times where he would have said something and I actually fundamentally disagreed with it, but wasn't there for me to then put my hand up and then start arguing a different point because I'd had my time. So there's that balance. I think probably Ben could play under Harry Brook as well, I think.

We all thought that it was, I don't know, Ben Stokes' destiny to be moving towards this ground again at the end of next summer, end of an Ashes series, maybe he's finally got his hands on the urn as captain, and that might be the end of his career. The players are just— have just come down the steps and they're gathering by the boundary edge. So, Ronnie?

Well, I'm— if England win this week, yeah, you know, there's probably a likely chance that he won't play at Trent Bridge. If they win at Trent Bridge and they win the series 3-0, you know, you could see them kind of just moving in a different direction.

But if he plays for Durham on Friday—

I think he's going to.

Everything's fine, and he's obviously fine in himself, and then this review is still going on. It would seem utterly ridiculous that he's not playing at the Trent Bridge, or at least there isn't some sort of conclusion to it all. If he's out there playing cricket for Durham, he should be out here playing for England. If the review's—

I agree, but you know— Durham have a— You know, with English— the curfew's in it, Durham, I think. You know, with English cricket, it's all about that out in the middle, and that's winning games of cricket. And if you're winning, you know, you can pretty much make all the calls and no one complains about them because you're winning games of cricket. When you start losing and you lose without Ben Stokes, I would say that Ben Stokes will get the call to come straight back into the side.

Answer from each of you: who's England's captain for the first Ashes Test next summer?

Ben Stokes.

Ben Stokes.

Ben Stokes, there we go.

There's still some water to go under the bridge, isn't there?

As long as he gets to bed.

Yes.

The TMS Podcast from BBC Radio 5 Live.

5 lives for—

My favorite World Cup moment? It's the first World Cup I properly remember watching, Argentina '78. The ticker tape, Mario Kempes, Ari Hahn scoring goals from miles out.

And always one of my favorite World Cup moments, Archie Gemmell's great goal for Scotland against the Dutch.

What makes the World Cup such a special tournament is the atmosphere, the color. It is a meeting of the nations and of people who love football.

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