Will Jacks is BACK for the Ashes

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Always decided to launch into that Will.

Jack and he's taking it up and.

Over Midwicket, always onto the top deck.

And What a fabulous 50 for Will Jacks.

He enjoyed that one.

That was a stunning strike.

Hello, I'm him. Henry Moran. Welcome to the Test Match Special podcast. Well, we have seen the white smoke coming from ECB Towers. Brendan McCollum's conclave have chosen their 16 men that they think will see the Ashes return to British shores for the first time since 2015. From the early hours of November 21st, you can hear it all as it happens on the BBC. Every ball of every match from the men's Ashes on BBC Sounds 5 Sports Extra and the BBC Sport app and website. And we'll keep you right up to date with all cricketing matters with a daily Test Match special podcast from Australia as well. So make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. Right, then, to run the rule over a squad that does have one or two surprises, I'm very glad to be alongside two men who know the pressures of an away Ashes series all too well. Former England fast bowler Stephen Finn and batter David Milan. Plus the BBC's chief cricket reporter, Stefan Shemelt. Hello to you all. Lovely to have you with us. Right, first and foremost, Will Jax is a name, I think, Stefan, we were a little bit surprised to see on that list.

Yeah, a little bit. Brendan McCollum told us last Sunday when it was raining at Trent Bridge during that last T20 between England and South Africa that probably the only point of discussion in the England squad was that second spinner. A lot of us thought it was going to be rare. And Ahmed, because of the form that he's shown and what he offers, actually a little bit of something different with his leg spin and maybe could be that all round option to cover for Ben Stokes. If Ben Stokes can't get through the five test matches, I don't think Will Jax was on many people's radar. Maybe Liam Dawson or Jack Leach might have been other names, but it felt like the ship had sailed for those two. But Jax has got the nod. He has got similar qualities to Ray and Ahmed really. He's a batting all rounder rather than a bowling all rounder. He mimics showing Bashir and that he's a tall off spinner and he does give that all round cover for England. If anything were to happen to Ben Stokes, you could see that Jax could slot in at six or seven and England could still play four specialist seamers. In all of that though, if the only surprise in a squad is the identity of the second spinner, it shows that England are pretty settled and their plans have come together because ultimately if Will Jax has a big say on the outcome of the Ashes, urn, I'd be quite surprised. So the fact that the second spinner is one of the big talking points shows just how, how well England's plans from their point of view have come together.

David, what did you make of the. The decision to, to see Will Jax coming in as that second spinner?

Bit surprised, actually. I thought Liam Dawson would have been the one they would have gone for, not necessarily only for his spinning but for his batting as well, you know, lengthening that tail quite a bit. I know Sho Bashir and if you've got Woody and Joff and those guys in the team at the same time, you probably got a long tail, which Australia are really, really good at killing the tail with their bowlers. So yeah, a bit of a surprise to me, but I guess it gives England a different option as well. They now have someone that if they decided they didn't want to play Bashir at say a Perth where they think it's going to be green and seam orientated that they still have a spinner being able to play and bat at eight and without losing their seamers. So I think it gives them a couple of options. Now, even though it is a bit of surprise, I think it does give them more options in terms of the structure of the team they want to go for moving forward. If they decide the spinner is not going to be something they'd like to play or an out and out spinner, they want to play one or two of the grounds.

5 wickets and 74.1 overs in first class cricket this year, Finney for Will Jax. You compare that to some of the performances we've seen from Dawson, Leech and Ray and Ahmed. I mean numbers wise you could make the case that Jax doesn't necessarily have the justification to be in the squad. But equally we do know England like a tall offspinner. We know that England are looking for somebody that is going to be able to offer something with the bat as well. And we also know though that numbers in county cricket bear very little resemblance in terms of Waddington do in terms of their selections.

Yeah, I think all of the above. I also think it shows how little they think that spin is actually going to play a part in this Ashes series. Perth to me doesn't look conducive to spin. Brisbane day night, test not conducive to spin. Adelaide is notoriously flat, but it doesn't spin. And Melbourne and Sydney in recent years have been seam bowlers paradises over the last couple of Australian summers. So yeah, I think they've taken a hedged bet on what they expect conditions to be like. I also think it's probably worth caveating the fact that the England Lions will be on Australia in the same cities at the same time and they wouldn't be ruling out if they were presented with conditions that were going to be significantly spinny, which is clearly unlikely. Then they can just parachute someone in from that Lions squad, be it Iran, Ahmed or someone of the like. So. So yeah, look I, I think as Stefan says, if we're our main talking point of this Ashes squad is the second spinner, then I think England will feel as though they're in a good place. The, the fact that they've kept that core of players together is good I think going into a series where Australia are particularly unsettled with the batting lineup and the identity of those batters and the fitness of their bowlers. So I think a lot bodes well for England but they will have to start the series well to make an imprint on him.

Interesting what Steve Smith said to the BBC a couple of months ago. Spokey about the pitchers in Australia. Their batters are going to be challenged a little bit differently to the wickets that they've had over in England for a while which have looked pretty Flat and good for batting. David. It's an interesting one this, isn't it? Because you've batted with that, with success in Australia. I remember that 140 you scored at the wacker. And everyone always talks about these sort of very distinctive conditions in Australia, but it is going to be a little bit different, perhaps, given. Given some sort of shifting in terms of the conditions there.

Yeah, well, from the first Ashes I played in, I thought they were extremely flat, apart from maybe the wacker. I didn't find them that quick. They were a little bit bouncy, which they tend to be. But then moving to the second Ashes four years later, they were totally different. They were actually really spicy. They seemed like they nipped the whole game. They actually got worse as the game got on. Generally they get a little bit better. I know Brisbane gets a bit quicker in general or historically, but, you know, they actually felt like they nip the mcg wasn't the dead slow wicked that it was over the last couple of years and hasn't been the same recently. It's been really green and spicy. Plays a bit like Perth at the moment. And that new Perth one is totally different to the old Perth. The new Perth one is. It's really steep bounce and it doesn't. You don't look it on tv, but it feels like it's constantly going to hit you in the throat of a length. It's got that really weird feel about it, even though it's a hell of a ground. So. Yeah, and if you look at the way Australia have played over the last couple of years, they have played on green, spicy wickets. They have played on wickets which have been more conducive to their seam bowlers. And that's probably why they've been in the same issue that England were a few years ago with their batters not scoring runs and being a bit unsure. But I would be very, very surprised if Australia turned up with some flat wickets against this batting lineup of England. I think they would want those spicy wickets and see if they're able to test their patience and test the basball theory, if that's what you want to call it. Still down in Australia, with more bouts and a bit of movement.

Steph, you've got a big smile on your face because this is a cricket writer's dream, isn't it? All these little narratives.

It wasn't that. I was thinking that David shouldn't be saying that those pitches were flat when he got 100. The wackery should be saying that it nipped all over the place and only good.

That was the, that was the toughest one of the two, I must admit.

Yeah, well, we remember that James Vince, dismissal against Mitchell Stark, that game, which seem, it seemed like a straight one leg break. Eddie Org nipped off that little crack in the pitch. But Steph, this is the sort of thing that we love discussing though, isn't it? How the surface is going to play, how the sides are going to pick themselves.

I was wondering if Australia have just been trolling us for the past few years in the alls we've heard from English cricket. How long have we heard it that you've got to have pace and bounce and hostility to do well in Australia. And actually they've got a new kookaburra ball that seems to be nipping all over the place. The pitches are spicier and it's Scott Boland who's been tearing through India and maybe it's the traditional English seamer who would have actually done well in Australia. We'll find out, won't we? Because we are told that the conditions are much different in Australia than what they, what they've been used to be. So England might have spent all their time getting all these big nasty fasties together and it turns out that, I don't know, Darren Stevens, Darren Stevens could have ripped through Australia.

Right, let's hear from Will Jacks. He's been speaking to Rick Edwards on five Live Breakfast.

On the back pages, everyone's describing you as the kind of surprise call up. Was it a surprise to you?

A little bit. I think when you're around the team and around the groups, there's always a possibility and as a fan, the Ashes is, it's always been the biggest thing and Ashes away from home, everyone looks up to that. As a kid and it's something I was hugely looking forward to either watching and now obviously, hopefully playing it.

How, how did you find out who, who calls you? What did I say?

Yeah, Brendan Baz called me, had a bit of a casual chat and then after a minute just dropped it in. So took me completely by surprise and definitely brightened up my morning.

Did you feel like your, your form at the moment was definitely putting you in, in the frame? You've only played a couple of test matches for, for England. England before, but I guess they like what they've seen.

Yeah, I think obviously that comes into play. I think hopefully my character around the group and what I can bring to the squad, it's obviously a 16 man squad, so everyone plays their part and hopefully I Can play a role in various different situations within an 11 if I, if I have the chance and I guess that's what I can bring.

To the team and I guess they, they've seen from your, from your white ball play that you know you can, you can really help with both bat and, and ball and so could be a very valuable member of the squad hopefully.

Yeah, I'm happy to play whatever role the team needs and that's what I've been doing in the white ball be be. It's a great environment to be a part of. What Harry and Baz have been doing in the, in the white ball and obviously with Stokesy and how he's led over the last three years with the Test team has been. Was great to be a part of when I had time with them and to watch has been incredible. So I'm really looking forward to being a part of it again.

Who are the spinners playing in the game at the moment? Who you look to and try and learn from? I mean, obviously Australia got a pretty good one in Nathan Lyon.

Yeah, I was going to mention Nathan Lyon. I think he's been doing it for, for so long and on sometimes Australian pitches that are seen favored. So he's someone who I think all spinners look up to with the amount of revs and bounce he gets on the ball. I think the person I've worked closest with has been my Surrey coach, Gareth Batty. He kind of pushed me when I was 21 years old from a more of a real part timer to someone who really looked at it with more importance and he saw that opportunities would be there for me in the future if I did give it a real go. So around Covid time, when we had an extended period of training, we really focused on it there and then it's been a progression from there.

You've got a broken little finger at the moment, I think. How's it feeling?

Yeah, it's my ring finger on my left hand. It's okay. It's a bit sore unfortunately. I'll be out for a little bit, so no white ball tour to New Zealand for me, but I'll be ready for the Ashes and excited for that.

Yeah.

Are you ready for.

I mean, yeah, you've played in a lot of high profile games obviously, but the scrutiny that everyone gets in Ashes series is something else. Is there any way that you can kind of get ready for that?

Yeah, I've obviously seen that on the TV growing up and over the last few tours, it's something that I'm firstly, just excited to be a part of the. Obviously the vocal Aussie fans and kind of being 15 of you against all of them is something that I think everyone would love to be a part of. But, yeah, you'd hope that the cricket I've played so far, the experiences in the IPL where you're playing in front of incredibly loud and. And high numbers of crowds and playing for England, anytime you play for England is. Is high intensity and high press. So hopefully I'm prepared and we'll find out.

What sort of person are you to.

Are you to coach?

We come across so many different coaches with, obviously, in cricket, we. We play with multiple different teams. It's not just the same coach all.

Year round as well, so.

Yeah, exactly. So every day is different and you have to. There's a lot of information and you have to filter that to what works for you best. So it's a bit of a learning curve. When you're young, you can kind of get overruled by the amount of information or advice and it takes a while to figure out what really works for you. I think I understand that now. So my training is quite specific and you have your certain few guys that you would really go to if you need some work.

Well, that was Will Jax chatting to Rick Edwards on five Live Breakfast on Wednesday. The day after we got news of his inclusion in the England squad, which has got a couple of other little nuggets of intrigue, I think, in there as well, and not least Finney, the fact that Harry Brook, England's white ball captain, has been named as vice captain underneath Ben Stokes, replacing Ollie Pope in that role. I mean, what can we read into that in terms of Pope's vulnerability as his place at three?

Well, yeah, I think a significant amount, probably. I think clearly they probably see now Brook the way that he's captained in the white ball games as the successor to Ben Stokes in the long run. So it seems like the logical switch in that regard, that he then gets the opportunity. Opportunity if Stokes isn't fit to captain England in the Test match format. But, yeah, it removes a layer of protection around Ollie Pope, I suppose when it comes to that number three position where previously it's always been, well, he's the vice captain and you can't drop the vice captain. That layer of protection has gone now. So, yeah, it makes him immediately more vulnerable. Whether they'll start the series with Jacob Bethel at number three is a further debate because clearly they're very keen to double down on the fact that they think Jacob Bethel is an excellent player. They did that during the White Ball series just now that they played against South Africa, they kept playing him and they clearly think that he's supremely talented. So I don't think it's out the realms of possibility that he will bat at number three in that first Ashes Test, but I do think that's going to be the one selection call that England will have to make.

Can I just ask to both, both of you, Finney and Daward, why do England need an official vice captain? Why does any team need an official vice captain? Why do they need to tell us? And the reason I ask that is, if you look at the Australians, they've got Travis Head and Alex Carey, I think, who share the vice captaincy duties. But if Pat Cummins goes down during the series, I think they've already said it'd be Steve Smith who steps up to lead. Why even tell us who the vice captain is? Because all we're talking about now is you've taken the vice captaincy off Ollie Pope, you've it to Harry Brook, therefore Ollie Pope must be for the chop. Why do they not just say, I will work it out as we go?

I don't think it necessarily means he's for the chop. That's a very.

Way.

Well, it's a very journalistic way of looking at it, Stefan.

I am a journalist.

Well, sometimes. But the. The look, I do think it's something that is maybe slightly unique to English cricket in the sense that we like to name a vice captain. I wouldn't read all that much into it. I just think Harry Brooke is now the second in charge. He's probably the second most trusted voice inside that dressing room and it creates like a sequence of authority through that dressing room. So, yeah, I think for Ollie Pope, it does remove that layer of protection that he has had at being the vice captain. But. But I'm not reading all that much into him.

Yeah, I have to agree with Stephen there. I think Ollie Pope, and I think the surprising thing for me is, well, surprised and not surprised. I think Harry Brooke is always going to be the next captain of England when Stokes decides that he's done. I am surprised by the timing of it. I'm surprised that you could potentially have Ben Stokes, who I'm actually watching, doing his fitness on the field in front of me here. But you can see him potentially going down as he's done in all the series. He's not got through a series for a hell of a long time and you've Got someone captaining in Nash's series, something that they prepared for three years under this regime, to suddenly throw in someone who has never captained a Test match. I don't think he's captained a first class game before. Not that that matters so much, but just throwing him straight into Nash's series, when you've had this succession plan with Ollie Pope for a long time. So I think that's probably the most surprising thing for me, because it goes away from everything England have done over the last three years, which is to back the players, keep things the same and keep it simple. Now, that's not to say I don't think Harry Brooks should be the vice captain. I think he should be. I think he should have been announced ages ago that he was the vice captain. It's just the timing of it. But to agree with Stephen there, I. I don't think it's going to have an effect on selection. I don't think now that you're not vice captain, you're suddenly not going to play the first Test match. I think England would stick with exactly the same as what they've gone with over the. Over the last bit of time. The only thing that I think would be potentially different is if they decide not to play a spinner, then I think they'll decide whether they have to change the makeup of the team a little bit, whether that's a batter out for a batter that can bowl or two batters that can bowl. And that would be the only thing, I think. But, yeah, I think it is, as Stephen said, it isn't an English thing to make someone a vice captain. I think everyone's pretty much a leader in that group and everyone's voice is heard. Maybe that just means slightly more responsibility in where it comes to selection and. And asking opinions on. On things moving forward, whether it be tossing or, you know, conditions and so forth.

You can see a scenario, though, Steph, can't you? Where, say, as David mentions the. The fact that Ben Stokes has struggled to get through an entirety of a series, you get to match for Ollie Pop, who previously is across three matches, he's averaging 11. He struggles in the series. There's pressure on his selection place, yet he's the vice captain. All this noise goes around, actually, it removes that. And so in some ways you might be protecting him a little bit.

I just wonder what Ollie Pope is thinking today. And if you think of everything that we've been told by this England team and the messaging that comes out of the camp of, you know, togetherness and supporting players and clarity of messaging towards the players. Ollie Pope has been vice captain since the end of of 2022. He has done a lot for England. He stepped up as captain. He's kept wicket when they've needed him to and slid down the order. He stepped up to open the batting in Pakistan last winter. He's batted at number six when they've asked him to. Remember back at the start of this summer when Ben Stokes said there was a twisted media agenda against Ollie Pope, when we were having the conversation of whether or not Bethel would come straight back into the side for the India series and now out of nowhere he's been dropped as vice captain. And whether England like it or not, or whether or not it does mean anything that that layer of protection has been removed between him and Ethel. We are talking about it and we're going to be talking about it up until Perth. And if Ollie Pope gets puts up, gets put up for media, we're going to ask him, how do you feel about not being vice captain? Do you think you're going to lose your place? It just feels an unnecessary knock to a player that has done everything he could for England. And yes, it's about results, but I think again, Finney, we were talking about it at Trent Bridge. He averaged 34 across the summer against India. That is not stellar, granted, but that is what Ollie Pope has done across his career. Those are numbers that have meant England have stayed loyal to him and if he averages 34 in the Ashes, I reckon England might win.

Well, we'll pick up this conversation shortly. Make sure that you're subscribed to the Test Match special podcast. We'll be uploading a new episode every single day of the Men's Ashes series this winter and you can hear every ball of every match of the series on BBC Sounds. It all gets underway on November 20th. Before then, plenty coming your way with the women's 50 over World cup right around the corner. Every ball of every match from that as well. From India and Sri Lanka. It starts on 30 September and England begin their campaign. The first tournament led by head coach Charlotte Edwards. Captain Nat Siva Brunt on October 3 against South Africa. You'll be able to HEAR that on BBC sounds with the match starting at 10:30 in the morning. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

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Stephen, what is England's best option at three? Well, this is a thing because none of us know the answer. It's really difficult.

Yeah, exactly. And is Jacob Bethel the long term answer at three? No. I think that he is naturally a middle order player. When I watch him bat, I'm not sure he is a number three, but we're not blessed with people who are jumping off the page at us as specialist number three batters because I do think number three is a specialist position. So then you have to take an educated bet on who you think is going to do a good job for the team. I think Ollie Pope has been an outstanding team man in the sense that he's been very selfless when he's thrown himself up the order, taken the gloves at certain times. He's always been very willing to do what he can for the team, which are outstanding qualities for a player to have. Yeah. I'd be surprised if they went against the status quo for that first Test just because then why didn't they play Bethel throughout the summer? Why didn't they change it after the third Test, say, of the India series? Yeah, I actually can't answer that question, unfortunately, with a definitive answer. David can though.

No, I would just say so. The last series we played then. I know everyone talks about you want to go down to Australia and you win the Ashes and what have you, but I actually remember two days before the first Test we were doing a fielding session and we had batters and bowlers mixed and everyone was sort of looking at each other going, are you playing? And the other one was going, I've not been told anything. Are you playing? And everyone's like, I don't know. It got to a stage where people like, well, let's wait till tomorrow. And then we're doing fielding again and guys like, we're playing and then someone's Like I don't know, I haven't been told if I'm not playing or not. And this is the day before the Test match and you had, I think it was Baristow and Pope and they were unsure which way to go and then it was bowlers. I think Broad got left out but it sort of. Everyone was unsure what was happening two days out and then a day out before the Test match. And people only got told after training session what the first test was going to be and had this whole covert and preparation and we all did quarantine the whole time to work out what we were doing. And it got down to the last day after training before people knew what was happening. And I hope that this doesn't happen with this England team again. I would be surprised if it does that they rock up and they're still unsure when they get to Australia who's going to bat three. I don't think it's going to be as clear cut as oh, let's see who does well in the one warm up game we've got or the play against the Lions. I, I think they already know who the batting order is going to be and it would just be whether it's a spinner or not a spinner and if I don't play a spinner, whether it's a Bethel or Jax that plays. And, and with all these Ashes series, the five Test match series, you usually make a change after the third Test match if someone hasn't performed in those first couple and you're behind the game. If you're winning games of cricket, you probably stick with the same team for that fourth Test as well.

David, why, why is it such an important and challenging position as a man that has done it plenty of. And why might some say that Jacob Bethel isn't a number three batter?

Well, I wouldn't say he's not a number three until he's given a good run at it. He is technically, if he. Well, he's a bit like me. He likes to drive and he throws his hands at it, which is fine, that's the way he goes about it. But technically he's actually very sound. He leaves the ball well, he's lined up very, very, very well and I actually think he'd be quite suited for Australia if he leaves the ball well. But number three is a unique spot that you have no idea when you're going to bat like you bat at 4. You play the same game every time you bet 5. You play the same game, you walk in regardless of whether you're 10 for 2, 20 for 2, 100 for 2, you walk in at 4 and you're playing the same game. You're aggressive, you're taking the game on. When you're batting at three, you know you could walk in in the first over. The game is as I did in that first Test at Brisbane, you walk out of the second ball of the Test match and then the next Test match you walk out at 100 for one. And it's your tempos understanding when you're. If you're going to carry on with that tempo, if you have to find out different ways of working out. So it becomes incredibly tough. It's the same with white ball cricket. It's a tough position to back because you have to do it so many times to understand which way you're going to go about it at that specific time. Do you counter attack? Do you sit in for a bit? Whereas all the other positions, I feel like you just play the same way. So I'm not saying Jacob Bethel can't. I'm not saying he couldn't be as successful in, in the long run. He needs to get given an opportunity to do it. And whether him get an opportunity to do it for the second time or third Test, whatever it is, in, in the Ashes, I don't think that's something that would be beneficial to him or England just yet.

Right, let's move on to the bowling attack. Chris Wilkes doesn't make it whether his fitness would have been an issue, regardless of whether England would have gone a different route. He's not in the squad. And so it is the explosiveness of Wood, Archer, cast, Stokes, potentially all lining up as well. You've got all sorts of options, arguably. And Stefan, I know you've written about this, it's England's quickest bowling attack to head to Australia in several generations. So, Stefan, what do we make of this bowling attack?

I think if you'd offered this bowling attack to England last summer when, when they nudged Jimmy Anderson into retirement, they would have snapped your hand off for them to gather this group of fast bowlers. And look, there's still time until the 21st of November, as Finney knows, you can. You can get to Australia and not even make it through the first week. So there is still time for this to go wrong. But at the moment, England have all of the tools that they could have. They have publicly said that they want to take to Australia. Pace, bounce, hostility, options to rotate in and out throughout that five Test series. I don't think Chris Wokes, Chris Wilkes wasn't considered on, on fitness grounds. There was the, there was the chat about Jamie Overton or whether or not he would take the six seamer slot but then he, he, he ended his Red Bull career or paused his Red Bull career opening the door to Matthew Potts. There are questions over Mark Wood who won't have played a test match since, since August 2024 by the time the Perth Test rolls around. But that being said, I don't think England could have asked for anything more than the group of fast bowlers they are. They are taking to Australia Finney, the.

Bowling attack in the final test match of the last Ashes series. Down under. Stuart Broad, Ollie Robinson, Mark Wood, Chris W. It's a very different looking lineup apart from Mark Wood being part of it, but it is a very different makeup.

Yeah, I think everything has been angled towards making sure that these players have enough games and experience and fitness into them by the time they get to this Ashes series. The one caveat to all of this is that the pitches have been a bit spicier. We don't know what we're going to get but there is a necessity for a line and length bowler in there which Matthew Potts is. But he's not been favoured when England have been presented with those conditions over the last couple of years in Test cricket. So I think that's an interesting addition to the squad but certainly I'm excited about the way that these guys can go there and stamp a mark on the series. You look at the first couple of test matches, Perth should be quick and bouncy. As David mentioned, the bounce there, feeling like it's going to rip your throat off. If you line up three of those six with Ben Stokes as a fourth and then depending on whether they play a spinner or not, that's really exciting to lay a marker down in the series which you absolutely have to do. When we won it in 201011 we were behind the game but then that monster first innings with the bat in hand set our stall out to then put a footer or have a foothold in the series and England will have to do the same. And I think that this pace bowling attack with the conditions that they'll be presented in those first two games will give them the possibility to do so.

David, what have you made of, of the selection and the availability as much as anything?

Well, I think they've got everyone they wanted apart from potentially Wokes if he was fully fit. I think it's exciting for England. They're Actually rocking up to Australia with people that have got a bit of pace and a bit of skill. A lot of test matches underneath their belt. You know, you've got Gus Atkinson, who still bowls fuller than most bowlers as well, and he still bowls at good pace. Joff bowls quite full cast, can pitch the ball up as well. Tongue has shown that he can do it. So I think they've got all the strings to their bow is whether they can be consistent enough and maintain the pressure enough. In the times I've been that we've been poor with the bat and we didn't score enough runs, but. But, you know, it always felt like Australia found a way to get the pressure back on you and score and they'd be still be 160 for four and you think we're in the game and they'd score 400. They'd find a way of doing that. So if you can maintain that pressure for as long as you can as a bowling unit, which I think the bowlers have done exceptionally well on the flat wickets that they played on recently. So they've learned different skills. So whether they can use those skills and balls on wickets that are doing a little bit more and be more consistent, I think it would be great for England. I'm actually really excited for this series. I think think this is probably the first time in a long time, probably since Finney went down and won it, that we're actually looking at a team that. That can actually push Australia and potentially win down there. And. And that's exciting from. From an England point of view and a supporter's point of view too, how.

Much of that Finney, that. That potential for England to win the series is down to this bowling attack and the fact that there is the. The explosiveness that we speak about.

Yeah, it is, but it's also only a component within the. The greater sum, which is. Which is the entirety of the team, but also the attitude that they're going to play with. I think when I've looked at the previous series, so 2013, 14, 17, 18, 21, 22, there was a timidness about the way that England played. That mean that Australia just bully you. If you go down there and you don't puff your chest out and push back against Australia, they'll bully you for five test matches. Looking at this team turning up with the characters that they have, the captain that they have and this bowling lineup, they're not going to be bullied by Australia. They might lose, but they're not going to be bullied whilst losing. They're going to push back at certain stages throughout this series, which I think that if you push back early enough in the series, you can turn the tide the other way and the Australians can turn on themselves. There's infighting, the media turn on them, the public turn on them, and that's when you're ahead. And that's what we did in 2010. 11. And that's why I think this is England's best chance to win a series since then.

Steph, would you agree with that? You've seen plenty of these tours down under and you've seen the elements that have gone right and gone wrong in that time.

Yeah. And I've written that this is England's best chance to win since 2010. 11. I guess we do overlook the fact that in 2013, 14, England had just won 3 nil at home and everyone kind of expected them to go to Australia and win. But certainly since then, this looks like the time the two teams are most evenly matched. We've just spoken about the fast bowling unit, but I do think it's England's batting that is their strength and where they. They hold the edge over Australia. And so much will just come down to Ben Stokes. I think England's chances of winning without a fully fit Ben Stokes for the majority of the series really do dwindle. And going back to that first Test in Perth and sort of linking it all together with. With the fast bowling lineup and who England decide to play and whether or not. Whether they play a spinner or not, a lot will depend on that fitness of Stokes, because if Stokes can bowl his overs, then that changes the balance of the team. If they're still just feeling their way back in. Playing four specialist seamers is another way to protect Ben Stokes in that first Test. But yeah, it is exciting and England have got a chance and there are definite weaknesses in the Australia team that can be exploited.

Do you go along with that, Finney? It feels like there is just something a little different about this tour.

Absolutely, yeah. For the reasons that I gave before, in the sense that the way that England are going down there to, to play on the front foot is something that I don't think we've seen for a long time. And secondly, there are chinks in the armour of Australia that has been pretty sturdy. I think on the last three Ashes tours that have happened down under, Australia have been very settled. But you look at the top order turmoil that they've had and the discussions that continue to go around who's going to be the makeup of that top three. How do they fit Bo Webster and Cam Green into the same lineup? Because they seem desperate to do so. They don't both fit into that middle order. So then you have to compromise something. Pat Cummins back injury that has been played down by Australia. But if you've got a stress response in your lower back as a bowler six weeks out from a massive series, that's a worry. Josh Hazelwood hasn't played as much cricket in the last couple of years as he has done before. Nathan Lyons returns in Australia have been a lot lower than previously as well. So there are definitely things there for England to take advantage of. Australia will draw on the good memories that they've had of Ashes series recently and will be desperate to give the send off to those great players that I just mentioned in what will probably be their last home Ashes series. So everything's to play for. I'm super excited about watching it and it's a tough one to call but England three to.

And David, we've not even mentioned Joe Root having yet to score 100 down under.

Yeah, I think he's Jew, isn't he? Actually I saw him, he was in our changing when he played the warm up game here before he played all the Test series and he actually brought it up. He randomly was just talking about Australia and how he hasn't done it yet in, in any format, which is so surprising because he's been so consistent for so many years and he's done it so well. So that's something he wants to get off his chest. And I'm pretty sure knowing Joe Root that he would have worked out a way to have improved how he's gone the last couple of years. He probably studied how he's got out and how he wants to go about it, but he's been so prolific ring the nova his whole career. And it probably shows that if you know Joe is not as prolific as he is in a certain country, England aren't as successful and I'm hoping that he finds it this year. I'm hoping that he finds the way he wants to go about scoring it. He gets that 100 off the chest. I'm pretty sure if he gets 100 in that first or second Test, he'll score two or three more in the series. He's that good a player and he'll be that determined. So look, I think everything's in Joe's favor now. He's, he's relaxed, he hasn't got the captaincy issues to worry about. He's, he's not going to worry about who's going out and who's getting selected left, right and center. So I think he's, he'll, he'll be a lot freer mentally to be able to go out and just do what he does best, which is concentrated batting.

Look, I'm really torn in this. I'm really torn because I'm desperate for Joe root to score 100 and he's imperative to England winning this Ashes series. But there's a lot of me that would love to see Matthew Hayden walking around naked around the scg. So I'm very torn on that one.

What a thought to leave us. To leave us on this episode of the Test Match Pressure podcast. My thanks to Steven Dawid and to Stefan as well. That is it for this edition. Every ball of every match of the Men's Ashes live on BBC Sounds. Perth to Brisbane to Adelaide to Melbourne to Sydney. We'll be right there to bring you all the latest on and off the field. Daily Test match special podcast throughout the whole series gets underway on November 21st and look out for so much preview content to enjoy across the BBC. Plus, before any of that, there's the small matter of the women's 50 over World cup in India. Can Natsiva Brunt and her side upset the odds and win the trophy back from Australia? Will it be India's year at last? Every ball of every game available to listen to from September 30th and you can keep up to date with all things cricket by following BCTMs on X and BBC Cricket on Instagram. Thanks again for listening.

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