Women’s World Cup: England make it three from three against Sri Lanka

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Hello, this is Daniel Norcos and welcome to the TMS podcast where England have beaten Sri Lanka by 89 runs. We will hear from player of the match Nat Siver Brunt and Sri Lanka captain Chamri Attepattu. Plus I am joined by World cup winner Alex Hartley and former Australia captain and former four time World cup winner Lisa Staleka where we will reflect on this match and look ahead to India against Australia.

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So here in Colombo, England have pulled off their third successive win. They sit atop the World cup table. They've leapfrogged over Australia partly because Australia didn't get the chance to play against Sri Lanka. Their game was rained off but it was a convincing win by England by 89 runs. They scored 253 in the end, which was at one point probably a little bit fewer than they would have liked but again towards the back end a little bit more than they might have thought they would have got. And then with the bat, Sri Lanka I'm afraid they did what they so often do do. This time not because Atapatu was out after they'd scored some runs. It was more that having made it to 95 with perhaps less well sung players. After that they collapsed. Phion Wynne has been speaking to England captain and player of the match Nat Silverbrunt.

Nat, congratulations. Big win and remaining unbeaten. Top of the group. Must be a pretty nice feeling as a captain.

Yeah, absolutely. I guess three different games that we've played in terms of the conditions and how it's gone really. But yeah, I'm really pleased how we were able to adapt today, how we were able to adapt today to the conditions because they weren't the same the whole way through the innings. So yeah, really, really pleased that we could get over the line.

And your own knock, talk us through how you had to pace that innings. Obviously losing the Open is quite early. A cluster of wickets in the middle and then 49 off the last five. A few different phases in there. How did you have to navigate that?

Yeah, yeah, it was obviously tricky at times and the Sri Lankan spinners made it difficult for us to score freely. And I never really felt like I could, I guess, take on the boundary and be comfortable in the conditions until the last five hours, like you say. But that probably also went with the amount of wickets that we had lost, so I didn't want to go too early. And obviously they end up all out. So, yeah, really, really pleased with the pacing of the innings, I think. And, yes, some great learnings for our game here again against Pakistan.

Did you have any targets in mind in terms of getting to 240, 250, or was it simply a case of waiting for the conditions and seeing what happened, especially with such a variety of spinners in their attack?

Yeah, I'm not very good at guessing numbers, actually. That's not my forte, really, in terms of the batting conditions, but, yeah, I knew that it would be great if we could get a partnership together and really, I guess, be able to accelerate towards the end of the innings. It probably didn't happen as early as we'd like, but, yeah, I guess working together with each batter that came out to make sure that, I guess everyone was clear of what we wanted to do and make sure we try and capitalise in those last five overs. And, yeah, it worked out really well in that way.

And your fifth World cup century, not sure if you know, but that is a new Women's World cup record. And a celebration in there for baby Theo as well. Was that one of your more emotional ones?

Yeah, after. After I did the celebration, I was like, oh, I'm actually feeling a bit like, goosebumpy here. Yeah, no, it was. It was really special moment, obviously, to have them here watching as well. And he did stay up quite late, so. Yeah, I'm obviously very glad that they've. They've come out to Sri Lanka to see me and to spend some time together. Yeah, I mean, hopefully it's not the last. We'll see what happens.

Yeah.

And hopefully you do get some sleep from that late night and onto the bowling innings. Sophie Eccleston, 4 for 17. She's spoken quite openly about how difficult the past few months have been for her after that Ashes series and everything. So for her and for you as a captain, must be really pleasing to see her getting rewards for that now.

Yeah, absolutely. I think in the last few months, we probably challenged her a bit more as well, just to improve herself, I suppose. There's probably no ceiling on what she could do, so. Yeah, obviously very, very pleased for her. And yeah, she's, I mean it'll be a huge hole, you know, when she does decide to leave the game because yeah, she's obviously a huge part of our team and yeah, a great leader.

In our attack and in terms of now unbeaten, going unbeaten, must be nice to have that winning run and a bit of confidence behind you. How's morale in the camp?

Yeah, really good. Yeah, I think we're obviously everyone's really pleased. We've had a few nerve wracking moments in our, in our game so far and yeah, some that are being a bit more calm. So yeah, as a group we're really happy. I think we've been training really well and lead up to games and preparing I guess the best we can. So yeah, really happy to be three.

From three and being able to go into those two games against India and Australia obviously at the back end of the group stage but being able to go into those unbeaten must be the aim.

Yeah, definitely. I guess not necessarily looking too far ahead but yeah, it's obviously nice to win a few games before you come up against those sorts of teams. But yeah, we'll be looking to I guess learn and always wanting to be better than we were before, I suppose. But yeah, I mean we'd love to be unbeaten when it comes to the end of the end of the group stage but yeah, we can't look too far ahead. We'll concentrate on Pakistan first and yeah, we'll go from there.

Natsa Brunt was absolutely delighted with that 117 as well she might be. It was her fifth 100 in World Cups. Nobody has scored more in Women's World Cups. And Alex Hartley, it was a vital innings, a little bit of good fortune. Dropped by probably when she was on three but after that she was just in control throughout.

Yeah, absolutely. After that she was faultless really, wasn't she? And I think from S Bo Siva Br S Brun's point of view, it's been a long day. That was a good one.

That was really one of your best.

Yeah, S Br points and Brunt mixed up makes br. Anyway, let me, let me carry on with what I'm saying. I think she never lets that phase her. I know she was dropped early on but it's, it's the way she goes. Right, okay, let me start my innings again. It was early, it was. She was only on three but she isn't really phased by anything. I think the calm head on her shoulders, the way she goes about her game. She does lead from the front and I know Heather Knight led from the front for England for a number of years, but, but just Nat just does it in a completely different way, a really calm way. She's not frightened to have, you know, slips in play in the 45th over if she needs to. I think the way she strikes the ball, the way that, you know, a strike rate of 100 today just, just proves that, you know, that's the way she wants to girls to play herself as well.

Lisa, it was a really intelligent innings, wasn't it? Because every time it looked like she might be allowed to have some license to go hard, a wicket fell, a couple of wickets fell early and that's what brought her to the crease at 49 for 2. But then that partnership with Heather Knight, you sort of felt that, right, they're just ready to unleash and then Knight got out with a score on 109 for 29 and then they just regroup, just be sensible. Then Sophia Dudley and Emma Lamb were out in, in quick succession. Suddenly it's 168 for five and Alice Capsi 168 for six. So every time she was just ready to go hard, she couldn't. So she had to hold herself back right to the end. How difficult is that for a batter to do?

It is tough because you feel like you're in a situation that you want to go hard. But the main thing is that really good teams or really good individuals problem solve on the go. You even heard in that answer, she said, I, I just wanted to keep going full face down the ground. I didn't want to turn on the ball too sharply. So she assessed the conditions and even as the pitch was changing throughout the innings, she was doing that on the fly. That's, that's a class player. Other players go, this is what I'm doing, this is the attack, this is how I'm going to go about it. And they don't, they don't falter from that plan. And that sometimes is their downfall. But not for Nat Siva Brunt.

Once again, there was support from Charlie Dean. The last time England played, she was supporting Heather Knight to get England over the line. This time, actually a really important partnership. It doesn't look huge. It was only 38 runs, but it was important to keep England going, to ensure that Nat Silverbrunt had a platform from which to launch in the last five overs, wasn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. And that's it. If Dean could stick around for a period of time, which she did, it gives Siver Brunt that that opportunity at the back end to capitalize on still being out there in the middle. So Dean again has come to England's savior at the back end of the innings and proving why they're playing the extra B. You know, had Dean have been, let's say, where Caps, he's batting. So they've. And then they've got an extra bowler like Filer, they'd have been, I think they would have been a battle. Like I know Capsi got a four ball duck today, but she got a ripper of a delivery from Ranawira and that's why they're playing the extra batter.

It was another one of those runaway overs. She picked up three against India and one suddenly she bowled this absolutely monstrous over. She got the border spit and bounce and it did for Alice Gapsey. But England got 49 in the last five overs. That was almost entirely down to Nat Silverbrunt unleashing 117 from 117 balls. Only nine fours and two sixes because for the bulk of that inning she was just moving the ball around, maneuvering it into gaps. But at the end she showed what she could do and actually what she one day might do if she gets support from that higher middle order. That makes you think that the potential for England's batting there, Lisa, is that it could be so much better. It hasn't fired as a unit for a while, but you kind of think that if a partnership that can stay with Nat Silverbrunt near the top of the order happens, they could get the 340s, 350s that could challenge the very best teams.

Yeah, I guess the issue for them is Heather Knight and Nat Siva Brunner, the most consistent batters within that lineup. And we've seen sporadic scores from the probably the top six or seven. Ideally they're still searching for that perfect batting display where everyone contributes or, and it may, it may be 30 to 40 runs off, you know, 35 deliveries and, and all of a sudden they, they're getting themselves in a position of 320 quite easily without anyone going ballistic.

Just break off because Nat Germanos is with the Sri Lankan skipper Jamri Atapatu.

Jamie, let's start off first of all with the bowling. You said at the task you back your bowling side to pick up wickets and do well. How do you rate that bowling performance?

Actually we bowl really good in the all the 50 overs, I feel that. But the last three overs we struggled a bit and they scored 30, 40 runs. But yeah, end of the day I feel our bowlers done really good job. And the other thing is we dropped one catch at Siva so she scored 100. So always catches in matches and yeah we bowled really good.

I know that one catch in this game made a difference. But compared to how you fielded in the first game against India, do you feel there has been an improvement though from that first game?

Yeah, I feel we improve a little bit, but we need to improve a lot before the game, before the next game and we stick with our plans and we have to execute our right plan, right time.

In terms of batting, you've changed your batting order a little bit through the year. You've changed your opening play. I know you, you batted at number three as well. Do you think you've started to settle into positions now?

Yeah, so I feel my place is opening so I always have better like opener. So yeah, we changed a little bit in the batting order and day as well. So I hope we can change those things and, and the next game is very important for us. So we have to talk those things in the, in the meeting room and we have to bounce back in next game.

Having so much time off in between games, nothing you can do about it. But how much of a difference does that make?

Yeah, definitely we eight days off so it's little bit effort for those things and but as a team, as a captain, no excuse for those things. So the end of the day as a professional cricketers, we have to play our game in the middle. That's the most important thing.

How's the leagues feeling right now?

Feeling okay and I struggle in first over so I feel okay. So I have two dead rest and I hope I can back my best performance in next game.

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Sophie Eccleston, 4 for 17 in 10 overs. In the process she took her 30th World cup wicket. She managed to do that in just 12 matches which is five matches quicker than any other woman has managed. She's the fifth leading wicket taker across formats in the history of women's cricket. She's only 26 years old. Come to you first Alex, as you're a left arm spinner, how Good is Sophie Eccleston and how good was she today?

She's the best the game's ever seen when it comes to spin bowling for me, I think the way she's consistently taken wickets, the way she's consistently been world's number one for such a long period of time now making a debut at 16 and never really looking back and just getting better and better. I think the way she's been able to adapt her game when the game's been adapting around her has been really impressive. She's obviously tall, she spins the ball naturally, she's got a lot of natural attributes that help her. Don't get me wrong, she gets more bounce than anybody else does because she is so tall. But I think for, for her the willing to get better as this goes on and you know, to be the fifth leading wicket taker in World cup she could be by the end of this tournament the leading wicket taker in World Cups.

And so yeah, second World cup it's.

Only, that's what I mean, it's only a second World Cup. It's absolutely ridiculous. She took 21 wickets in the last World cup in New Zealand and all she would have to do is take 22 in this.

Nat Silver Brunt said she's challenged there Lisa Ster to, to make a mark and to really to lead this bowling attack. Is she bowling as well as you've seen her bowl?

Yeah, I think so. I feel like she's always, as Alex said, had the attributes been very strong and very quick through the crease and I think she's had to slowly adapt and go okay on, on, you know, on decks like maybe Australia where there's not a lot of side turn I have to fire it in. But on pitches where you are extracting some spin, how can I vary my pace? And I've seen that development over a period of probably 18 months and that has probably been because of WPL and teams traveling to the subcontinent a lot more that she's starting to realize that. And yeah, I mean it's kind of scary to think where she's going to end up when she finishes the game. Similar to someone like a Meg Lanning when she kind of burst onto the scenes, just takes the game by the scruff of the neck and whenever they're out in the middle doing what they do, people stop and watch because it's entertaining.

I think the thing with Ecclestone is she's already had a 10 year international career and the one thing you don't want is her to call it a day early just because she's sort of been there and done that. She could play for another 10 years if she wanted to.

Well, I'm pretty sure England would love her to. She's part of a four pronged spin attack out in these pitches. It's been England's formula. They did in Guwahati. They'll almost certainly do it the next match they play here against Pakistan and they've gone top of the table. They're three from three. Lastly on this match, Al, what sort of shape are England in? What have we been able to learn from a thrashing of a below par? South Africa scraping over the line against Bangladesh and today's performance, I think they've.

Got better in periods throughout the games. You know, South Africa, I'm going to park that game because it is such an anomaly. It doesn't really count. Bangladesh, they lost wickets in clusters, but yet they were gritty. And the difference was between January during the Ashes in Australia and the Bangladesh game. They got over the line when they were under pressure with. Yes, Charlie Dean was out there with Heather Knight and then today they had a few more partnerships than they did against Bangladesh. So slowly but surely they're getting better and they're putting things together. Yes, Siva Brunt just said that she would have liked bigger partnerships and more partnerships, but we've got to look at where they were six or seven months ago. There were no partnerships and I just think that they're improving game by game.

Lisa, you saw them lose the ashes 16 nil. We keep on mentioning it on Test Match Special because it's still something of a trauma for English women's cricket fans. The England side that you've seen in this World cup, do you see a difference between that one and the one you saw in Australia?

Yeah, and it's more the attitude than anything. It's not necessarily skill or performance. They just seem more focused on what they need to do now. No doubt knowing Charlotte, she's probably cracked the whip a little bit and pulled them in line in what the expectations are. And when you play for your country, you put the jersey on and the cap on that. You've got to play with some pride. I have seen a change in attitude. The only thing that I'm concerned that Charlotte's trying to take them to a place of a certain style, which will take a bit of time, but everything is tracking nicely.

I think the attitude's the thing that's got to change first, isn't it? Skills fundamentally aren't going to be loads better than they were six months ago because it's not been that long. There hasn't been long enough for the fielding to be come as good as Australia's for their. For them to be able to play leg spin or Alana King as well as you would have won or you would like. But fundamentally, during the Ashes, we never saw any of the girls running after the games. We never saw, you know, the running between the wickets, the smiling faces, the willing to train. I think they've been way better with the media throughout this World cup, so I just think that they're tracking in the right direction. And Charlotte Edwards, whatever she's doing, has done a pretty good job so far.

They've got one more match here against Pakistan and barring whether you would expect them to win that easily, but their two biggest tests are ahead of them. They are India and Australia and those sides play each other tomorrow. It's a big, It's a really big game. It's probably bigger for India than it is for Australia because having lost that game so disappointingly to South Africa and really not having hit their straps really this tournament, Lisa, they, they need a performance even if they don't get a victory, don't they?

Well, they need their top order to fire no half centuries in the top five. Smitty Mandana, who we all expected probably off the back of the ODI series against Australia, we thought, okay, here's his. Here's the tournament for her to absolutely own. I mean she's owning all of the ad campaigns before and after the game, but she needs to perform well. Same with Harmon pre core. I wonder if they'll make a change because Richard Gosch coming in at number eight, she can bat higher. Like I'm just wondering like can you get her up to six and you.

Know, or seven, at least three ducks or two ducks. Sorry.

Yeah, she's the one for me where I think you probably park her and, and bring in maybe a Runda T. Reddy or Rada Yadav if you want to have that extra bowler as well.

Well, that is an issue for them, isn't it, Al? Because they've got five bowlers and so if they're not all firing.

But I think has been bowling just a couple. But she hasn't bowled a lot.

I know, but I think she under bowls herself. I really do. I think she's a really effective bo.

I think she had a lot of shoulder injuries and things like that. So that's why she kind of.

And they need another bowler then don't they.

Well, I think you do, because I don't think you can afford in this World cup to have just five bowling options. Australia have got nine, I think.

Yeah. But if your batting's not firing, then you need the extra batter. So it's that. It's that, isn't it?

Yeah, but that. That's the funny thing, right, when I think I mentioned it in one of my previews further the game that you drop a batter but the batting's not working because I think you're leaving Richard Gosch too far. Amanjot. Cause doing. And you've got to actually rely on your top order to do the job. You can't. It's like you want someone behind the keeper because the keeper's not very good. Well, no, the keeper has to be good, Right?

Yeah.

It's that kind of mentality.

And Amma Jots is she's going to be amazing. She's going to be a brilliant. She's brilliant talent. So I'm not against her having longer in the middle.

Australia, though, Lisa, have been remarkable this tournament, and not because they've steamrolled in their victories, actually, but it's been because they've been put under pressure. And the last game was. Was farcical from 115 for eight to put on 106 for the ninth wicket, breaking the hearts of not just Pakistan fans, but every neutral around the world.

Yes.

What can I understand? What can possibly stop this juggernaut? Because everywhere you look, we've just mentioned, you know, I've been slightly flippant, but there are genuinely eight bowling options and Alana Kings coming in at 10 and scoring the run of ball 50.

Yeah, I mean, they've always boasted wonderful depth in all facets, but India is a side that has pushed them and have beaten them on a regular occurrence. So it may not win series, but they've won matches. And I think what they need is someone like Harman Preetkaur, Smri Mandana Richa Ghosh to go big and take the game away. When you challenge the Australians, they're not challenged very often with the ball, so they kind of don't know where to go sometimes because their plan A often works and maybe they go to plan B and that normally works, but plan C and D, they're never touching that majority of the time, but if you can push them to that, then you're on top. And we've seen them falter a couple of times. Anika Bosh did that in the semifinal in the T20 World Cup. So that's going to be required. It's more from a batting point of view to put it under the bowlers and then scoreboard pressure and everything else can get to the Australian team as well.

To me, I think it's more obvious in T20 that they have a slight lack of role clarity. In 50 over cricket, it translates as having an awful lot of options, you know, because, you know, we were watching the 20 over, it's like, what actually is Annabelle Sutherland's role here seems to be batting at sort of six, not really bowling. Same with Tanya McGrath. In 50 over cricket, it just means you've got five overs from one of them if you want and they can come in and bat and just score the runs whenever they need them.

Exactly. It's that the team's perfect for 50 over cricket, isn't it? It is like you are just lobbing 11 robots out on the field and going, if one of you, if one of you malfunctions, don't worry, we've got another one. You know, they are ridiculous. They're there. Such a. There's no surprise why they've been so successful.

They are beatable, surely.

Of course they're beatable. They're human and they have bad days and you could, you can tell in this World cup there are moments, especially when they've had batting collapses, that they are a little bit shell shocked. Luckily for them, they've been playing the weaker teams. If they're playing, hopefully if they're playing India or England, they're like foot on the throat. We've gotten five, six down early. Let's finish it off because it's almost like Pakistan were got a little bit giddy and then they didn't bowl too well and they were almost like, wow, we've never had or been in this situation before. What do we do? You finish the game. You bowled them out, but obviously they didn't.

Is there a danger for India that the pressure is starting to get to them? I mean, I see such a talented side and I've been really disappointed with actually the both parts of their game, the way that they batted in the top order. You've already mentioned some high profile failures, but actually at the back end of that game against South Africa that their bowlers, their bowlers lost it and sometimes home the advantage can be an advantage, sometimes it isn't an advantage. And I don't know when you're in India, you, you do see, you were mentioning all those adverts, his adverts all the time. Starry smriti you know that the country's really getting behind them. We've talked, we've heard about sellouts. This game is supposed to be a sellout. Is that going to help India's players or is it going to be just a bit too much?

Yeah. You mentioned, you know who's more under pressure? I actually think it's India because if they drop this game then, oh, they've got England still to come as well.

So they have to qualify for the semifinals.

Yes, correct. And there will be that pressure. A bit like Australia in the T20 World cup back in 2020 there was so much pressure. They've got to be in the semi final. We want to sell out the mcg. We've got to get them into the final type thing. So I think if there's a little stutter for India, they'll, I think the pressure might get to them. So they, they've just got to hope. And this is where a lot of people I've noticed are wanting a Shefali Verma at the top of the order to go. Who cares who you are. I'm bombing you straight back over your head. Just a little counter punch which they don't have at the moment.

I can understand why she's not here though. She's not scored runs for a long time and I do get that. I understand. But I also think the people that are crying for have a point as well. So it's that double edged sword for the select as well. Have they got it right? Have they got it wrong? Time will tell.

I think there's a bigger picture with her. We may not know all the information and what they're trying to or where they want her to finish up.

Yeah, well, they got a very good replacement in particular while and it's the biggest game of the World cup so far. An absolute thriller thanks to Alex and Lisa. That's it for this episode of the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. Including no Balls with Kate Cross and Alex as well as Stumped with Alison Mitchell, who's been out in India during the Women's World Cup. England are next in action on Wednesday against Pakistan here in Colombo. We'll be live from 10:15 on Wednesday morning on BBC Sounds and 5 Sports Extra. And you can keep up to date with all things cricket by following BCTMS on X and BBC Cricket on Instagram. But for now it's goodbye.

The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

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