Women’s World Cup: GLORY for India

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Here is Dikti Sharma bowls It's been smashed in the air. Can a field again underneath it. Huge moment. Catch is taken at the third attempt but Laura Wolfhard has been caught at deep mid wicket and that could be the moment. Deep, deep in again this is sliced in the air. Could be a catch. Yes, taken by the captain. Harman Prikor takes the catch that sees India win the World Cup. Listen to the noise around Navi Mumbai. Look at the scenes. It's gone midnight but this party will be going on until the early hours. Fireworks, flags, noise, color everywhere you look because India have won, India have gone over the line and India at long, long last have won the World Cup. World cup winner Alex Hartley, Indian cricket ball broadcaster Prakashwakanka alongside me as we see these incredible scenes at the DY Patel Stadium with India world champions South Africa cannot be forgotten in this narrative they have more than played their part. Laura wolfart with another 100. But the night belongs to India.

It certainly does. And that that moment where Harman Preet put the ball into her trouser pocket reminds me of the reality of 25 June 1983. Remember it was Michael holding who was out leg before to Mohendra Amanath. The ball squirted away to Sunil Gavaskar. He put the ball in his pocket and has kept it with him ever since. I suspect it's going to be impossible to get that ball out of Harman Preet's hands. But just think about this. This is going to be as event in Indian sport, in Indian cricket and Indian life, I would say as any before because this is a landmark moment for Indian women's cricket. All those women who struggled to even get an India jersey to get official recognition from the BCCI and everyone who's come after that, they're all going to be thinking this is their win and it is the right thing to happen. It's happened at home in a tournament where till about 10 days ago there were questions about whether India will make the semi final.

The journey has not been simple in this tournament and well beyond. But when you finally cross that landmark and reach that moment, well, what a moment it is to win by 52 runs. Well, the margin of victory perhaps greater than it looked like it was going to be. Certain points in that run chase, it looked as though South Africa were well in line but they just couldn't keep that momentum going. And in the end, it is India who have done it and they can't quite believe it. You can see that in some of the faces out there and some of the expressions. And right now as we see Rohit Sharma shown on the big screen, somebody that two years ago in Ahmedabad was heartbroken. He could not look happier to see the women's side do what his team couldn't do. But the night's not about anyone but this group of girls. And the group of girls that will be inspired across this nation to pick up a bat and ball knowing that they can emulate their heroes. And it does go deeper. We've spoken about it all. Tournament, Prakash. This is not like England or Australia winning a World Cup. India winning a World cup will have reverberations for women's sport and women across this nation.

Oh, without question. I think around the world you'll see that. You'll see a lot more excitement.

Well, here's Cassander with Amanjotko.

I know you're emotional, but do you realize how important that moment was? Everyone playing knew how important that catch was. I have, I guess, fumbled. First time ever in my life. Glad I got that second chance to take that catch. That's all. I don't have words to express. You are a world champion, Aman Joth. It's been such a recovery from where you were to where you are in a year. What does this mean to you? This means a lot. You can see the crowd cheering all around. We have created history and this is just a starting. Indian cricket is going to be at next level. We are going to dominate all over the world in every format. Your family has supported you.

They have made so many sacrifices.

What's your message to your family? Everyone is watching around India and around the world.

Congrat.

Service everyone around here. My family, my coaches, everyone, everyone has their family here. My sitting at home and watching because my grandma is not well, but glad we could, we could do it where it mattered the most. That's all. What an incredible crowd here at DY Parthil with so many watching around India. This support has really taken your team across the line here at the World Cup. I think it's their victory as well because they came in huge numbers to support us. Thank you Mumbai. This is for you. This is for everyone. This is for Pratika who missed out due to injury. I know how, how it feels when you have to miss out a match due to injury. And Harsha sir said not everything is good but there's good in everything. So I'm very grateful.

We will bring you more reaction as we go through the next little while. As the stage is being set up and these players out there are continuing to celebrate. It's extraordinary scenes out there and what a moment that was between Har Core and Smitty Mar as well as the dancing begins out there in the middle. Alex.

Oh, it's been amazing. Absolutely amazing. What a game is. I'm just so thankful we had such a good game of cricket to, to finish this World Cup. At first this morning we thought is it going to rain? Is it going to go into tomorrow? But the rain fell for a couple of hours. We got a full game in and you can just see how much it means to the Indian girls out there. Harman Preak court was hugging Smitty Mandana for at least four and a half, five minutes. They wouldn't let each other go. A really wholesome moment. Those girls, they'll remember this for a lifetime. A home World Cup, a packed out stadium, millions, billions of people watching around the world and in this country, exceptional.

It's a phenomenal effort by this team, by the management and indeed it is going to be something that will be talked about for a long time to come.

Dare I say it, Daniel Norcross who joins us and been with us throughout the tournament. You're a cricket romantic and, and where does the cricket romantic see what we can see out for us?

Well, basically tears just come flooding to your eyes, don't they? I mean just the reaction of Prakash here in the box, apart from anything else, the reaction of the women themselves, the sheer delight. And the people have to say, how do you script that? Well, you can script it, but Dipti Sharma taking a fifth wicket. It's caught by the captain. To finish a journey that those two players have been on together for so long in front of a home crowd that's going utterly berserk. It's. It's lovely. It's wonderful. It's fairy tale for them. And it was a much more tense game, as you said, than that 52 run suggested. All happened in the blink of an eye, really. In the last 25 minutes. There was nerves. People were getting a bit shredded. Catches are being dropped. There were occasional moments of, you know, poor fielding, and it was all because of the pressure. Prakash mentioned it time and time again. He said, look at what the pressure's doing to them. And you can understand why there's that pressure when you see how much it meant to them to win. It doesn't. There's no pressure if you don't care. My. My word. They did.

They did, but they delivered and they delivered. Not having gone the easy route, they lost three matches. They also beat Australia. Yeah, and there is. And your. Your side did that as well, Alex. On your way to glory in 2017. And for any team in women's cricket, if you can do that as part of the journey to winning a trophy, it does rather underline the fact that you've earned it.

Yeah, absolutely. Any team that beats Australia, you know, deserves to win a World cup final. But it doesn't mean to say that you are going to win a World cup final. They had to have a good game today. They had to have a team performance and ultimately it was a whole team performance from India today. Deepti Sharma was absolutely fantastic. I mean, for me, she's the player of the tournament. She stands up time and time again. But, yeah, Australia will be devastated that they lost in the way that they did. But it was a remarkable chase in that semi final from India and they absolutely deserved it. I have no doubt that the games that they lost in the group stage helped them when they were under pressure in that semi final.

Just a word on the captain because, you know, sometimes we've been a little bit critical of Harmon Pre, you know, felt perhaps during the T20 World cup that team spirit wasn't quite what it might have been, that perhaps sometimes her demeanor on the. On the outfield wasn't helping. And we saw when Spy took over, there was a bit more of a smile on the faces of the players. They seem to be bit more engaged. But let's remember that I, I would say that the turning point of this game was when Shefali Verma came on to bowl. None of us were expecting that. That was the captain's call and she picked up two wickets and they were crucial wickets at that stage. Cine Elise and Laura Wolfhardt were managing the chase quite magnificently. She came on. It's sowed a seed of doubt the South Africans had not planned for what you do if Shefali Verma comes on and immediately Sudo Luce chips back an ineffectual little lob back to Shefalia. Then next over she gets out Marizan cap. I know it's a strangle down the leg side but doesn't matter. Great generals have to be lucky sometimes. And Harman Preet today was maybe a bit lucky but she was also inspired and it was, it's just brilliant for her because it's almost certainly her last, well, 50 over game you might think certainly it's her last World Cup. She's been at the helm for so long and for it to culminate in this moment is just lovely.

Phil Long, our statistician, a performance. I want to pick out Deepti Sharma today and. And across the tournament.

Yeah, rightly so. To pick out Deepti Sharma, let's remind you of her figures today. 9.3 overs, no maidens, 5 for 39. It's the second best bowling in a final. Don't forget she scored 50 in the first innings as well to go with that she finishes the tournament with 22 wickets. Only Lynn Fton in 1982 took more wickets in one World cup competition. It's the most by an Indian in a World Cup. First person to score a FIFA and 50 in a World cup final. Yeah. Dipti Sharma.

What a player. What a player.

I still wonder if Shefali ought to be player of the match. But it'll be dipty, won't it? But Shfali top score because let's not forget her journey either. She wasn't in the squad.

I think the really important thing about that is Shefali Verma coming into the squad. But the captain and the vice captain wanted her there. It was the management and the coach that didn't want her there. So how good from I guess that little group of three players, if you're talking Shefali, Harman Preet and Smithy Mandana to go right, you're in. Do it. Prove everybody wrong. And she's done absolutely that.

Yeah. Shefali Vermeer as you mentioned, 2 for 36 from 7. That was a bonus cuz she made 87 in the Indian innings. At 87. Came off 78 balls. That's the most by an Indian woman in a World cup final.

And Phil, Laura Wolfart's numbers, most runs from. From any woman in a World Cup.

Yeah, Laura wolfart and then 571runs in this World Cup. Clearly more. We thought, you know, she needed 40 today to go past Alyssa Healey. She did that. 571 runs in this competition. She's now the second highest scorer in all World Cups. She's got herself up to 1,328 World cup runs. Debbie Hockley, top of that list, 1501. She'll be in her sights for the next World Cup.

Yeah.

Extraordinary. Phil, thank you very much for the time being and Prakash Wikanka will join us once again. But an most enormous stage is being set up with the word champions out there being unfurled. And it's says on the big screen, India champions 2025. Daniel, what have you spotted?

I'm just looking at this crowd. Shoulder past 12 and no one is going anywhere. And I mean, look, we went in and saw the crowd and some of the crowd are really very, very young indeed. They're going to be up till 2, 3 o' clock this morning. No, the adrenaline be coursing through the veins, all of them, won't it?

Going straight to Marine Drive.

Yeah, that's a fair distance.

There'll be a bus tour tomorrow.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Tell you what. Well, it's going to be some party, that much is for sure. Right, let's hear from one of the stars of the India side. Here's Smriti Madha. You are a world champion. How does that sound?

Well, I. I mean, I don't know. How do I react to that? Still sinking in, as you said. I haven't been emotional on a cricket field but. But yeah, I mean, just a very unreal moment. Home World cup and yeah, I mean, just to read the champions, India, I mean, I just can't. I'm still not able to process it.

There is the essence of this moment.

This is cricket's history.

That has secured the future of women's cricket for decades.

To follow the macro picture of this.

World cup win, what does that mean.

To you, Smriti Mandana? You've been trying this for over a decade.

Yeah, I mean, you know, every World cup we go in and there have been so many heartbreaks for all of us, but, but yeah, I mean, we always, always believe that we have a bigger responsibility with women's cricket. And genuinely, just to see the support we've got over the last one and a half month and to see people come in support us, I mean, it just. I. I mean, I don't know how do I explain the last 40 days? But, but, yeah, I mean, to end it with a World cup win today, I mean, I will take that 45 days of not sleeping every night.

But just quickly tell me, after the exit from the 24 T20 World cup, when we didn't even qualify for the knockouts, you told me you'd had a very honest conversation with yourself. What was different as part of the campaign, what did the team do differently.

To make sure this time the result.

Went India's way as well?

Yeah, I mean, the, the last C20 World cup for sure, was a difficult one for all of us to take, but. But, yeah, I mean, we had a clear focus on really, you know, trying to work on our fitness, trying to be better at each and every aspect. But. But, I mean, the super strength of this team is no one will talk about it, but it's the way everyone just stuck in and just play for each other. I mean, that's a very under. I mean, I don't know. In a World cup like this, you just need everyone's support. Everyone was there for each other. Good days, bad days, we enjoyed each other's success. I mean, I just can't tell you the way the team environment is, and I think that's. That's really magic thoughts there.

Smitty Manda chatting to Jatin Sapru with India, World Champions here at Navi Mumbai. It's gone well past midnight, but the party just beginning, nobody has left their seats. South Africa, it'll be devastating for them. For the third time in. In less than three years, they've reached the final of a World cup, but not got over the line. However, their time, at some point in the future, maybe not with this generation, but it will come. And they have shown more than enough to demonstrate quite how strong a side they are. And, And Alex, you just said that at some point they will get that chance.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. To get to three World cup finals in a row. They, you know, it's. We've always spoken about India and it's not if. It's when. Well, today is their. When you feel like South Africa are getting closer and closer. You know, in the Dubai World cup, they probably should have won that and felt that heartbreak. But if I'm being honest going into today, India were the better side.

We'll get the thoughts of both captains Laura Wolfhardt shortly. But first, here's the winning skipper, Harman Preetkor.

I'm so grateful for this crowd. They've been so amazing. Thank you. Thank you guys for being there for us for all our ups and down. And credit goes to entire our cricket team, BCCI selectors, everyone back home. Thank you. Thank you so much.

It's got to be one of the greatest bounce backs in women's World cup history because you lose three on the trot against teams that finished above you. How did you, how did you speak to the team about just staying in the hunt for this moment?

Yeah, last, last game also we spoke that self belief was there that you know, even though we lost three back to back games but we knew this game, this team has something special to turn things around the table. So I think credit, credit goes to each and every member. They stay positive. They knew what we have to do the next three games and I think everybody was so involved. They were there for day and night. I think this team deserves to be there.

I think the script writers are already starting the Bollywood movie and I'm going to figure out who's going to play you in it but also who's going to play Shefali Verma. Because we all sat there in the commentary box and went what's happening here? Not with the bat but with the ball. When did that plan was hatched and when did you think right, we're going to play with it?

Yeah, I mean when Laura and Sune was batting they were looking really good and I just saw Shefali standing there and the way she was batting today, I knew today is her day. She was showing something special today and I just thought I have to go with my gut feeling. If my heart is saying I should give at least one over to her, I'm gonna give her. And then I just asked her can you bowl one over and she was so ready and she's always wanted to bowl for the team and I think that was a turn point for us.

She's only bowled 14 overs before tonight. Did you look at the coach and sort of not look at him a little bit, just wondering what he was going to say.

Well, when she came to the team that time we spoke to her, we might need your two or three overs and she was like, no, I'm, I. If you give me the bowling I'm gonna ball 10 overs for the team. And that shows how confident she was to ball for the team. And I think credit goes to her. She was so positive. She was there for the team and salute her the way, you know, she was there for the team.

298 after the semi final against Australia. Did you think maybe not enough at one stage?

No, actually today's pitch was totally different because of the rain and overhead conditions. We knew this total is enough for, for the final game because in the final game you always, always have, you know, little extra pressure on you. But still, we should give credit to the South Africa team. They batted beautifully in the last moment. They, they panicked a little bit and that's where, you know, we, we catch the game and I think we as a, as a group, we have been talking about, you know, once they, they started doing little bit, you know, something here and there, we have to catch that. And I think that that right time Dipti came and took those crucial wickets.

I had the pleasure of sitting in the commentary box and the cameras would pan to people in the crowd. So the very first team for India in a World cup was back in 1978 and it's been a long journey from then. You played in 2009, the team made it in 2005 and it was a bit of a rocky road. 2017, it was heartbreak. Likewise in 2022. It's part of this win. I know it's for this squad and your support staff, but I think a lot is also for the players that have come before you.

Yeah, definitely. Every time after every World cup, we came as a team and we all were discussing what we have to do to part that, you know, that line. And this time, last two years, Amul sir was there with the team and he was, you know, always telling us that this is not something, you know, this team is expecting from you guys. You have to come up with some, something special and you know, you have to keep preparing yourself for the bigger, bigger occasion. And I think we should give credit to our sports staff and BCC for showing trust on us. And you know, this team was there for last two years. We didn't make so much, so many changes. I think that shows they really invested in us. And today I think because of everyone we were standing here.

The phrase has often been used about the Indian women's cricket team that they're the sleeping giant of world cricket. Well, you've well and truly woken up now. Is this just the start? Is this the start of a destiny?

Yes, definitely this is the start. We wanted to break this barrier and now our next plan Is make this happen, make this habit. Because, you know, we are waiting for this moment now. This movement has come now, now, now, now. Let's just making this. This habit, you know, now next year also World cup and then Champion trophy is there. So, so many big occasions are coming. We just want to, you know, keep improving day by day. This is not a. Not a. Not an end. This is just a beginning and we just want to keep giving our best.

Laura, this is. This is a tough one. I know this, so. And it's probably a little bit harder than most, but when I look at that group behind us at the moment, words like grit, determination, team resilience, all sort of spring to mind. What springs to mind for you, for this group and the campaign?

Yeah, all of those words. I think I couldn't be prouder of this team for the campaign that we've had played some brilliant cricket throughout. I'll play today. I think India played fantastically well. Yeah. Unfortunate to be on the losing side, but I'm sure we'll definitely grow from this as a group.

Let's talk tournament first, because I think it's. You said to most people if you lost and were bowled out for 69 in the first game against England, and then you bowled out for 97 against Australia, most teams would have almost dropped their bundle. But you consistently went with the mantra, clear and present right throughout this World cup and it works so well for you to get through to the final.

Yeah, I think we. We did so well to put those couple of bad games behind us. We're either really good or really bad, but thankfully there was a lot more really good throughout the this tournament. Yeah, I think we had so many different players stepping up. Amazing tournament for a lot of different players. And just proud of the resilience we showed to get all the way to the final.

I think a lot of people sort of forget you're a new captain into this side. I can remember reading that you said that you wanted to make sure that it wasn't going to affect your batting. Well, it. It certainly hasn't. You got the most runs for a captain in a World cup, surpassing Belinda Clark. How did you get that balance right? Still knowing that you had to lead this group?

Yeah, probably didn't have my best year leading into this World cup and probably didn't start the tournament that well. But I think maybe overthinking it wasn't that good. Just try to, you know, it's just another game of cricket, even though you're at a World cup, try to Separate the two, the captaincy and the batting. And I think that sort of freed me up a bit come the back end of the tournament to just play my natural game and then focus on the captain and see at a different time.

Let's get today's game. You win the toss, you elect to have a bat first. It's felt as if there's probably not as much swing for Maran Cap in. In that first couple of overs.

Yeah, we were hoping for a little bit more early on. I think there was still a little bit of something in the wicket, though, so I do still think it was the right call to. To have a ball. And, yeah, that chase, I think we were in it for. For a lot of the chase. Just. Just lost too many wickets.

Laba Kaka, Nadine De Cloak really pegged things back at the back of that innings, too, because it looked at one stage India was sort of pushing up to that 350 plus mark. I think the last 16 overs, they didn't go for double figures at all.

Yeah, that was brilliant. I kept checking that scoreboard and they were definitely tracking for like a 350.

So, yeah, that.

That back end was. Was amazing. I think we've been pretty good at that throughout the tournament, and I think we. We gave ourselves a good chance. I think 300 was about par and a good wicket, and we really felt we could chase it.

And you probably wouldn't have put too much thought into Shivaley Firmer at the start of the tournament, then it would have been a little bit of scrambling coming into this match.

Definitely her bowling, but, yeah, I think she batted excellently. That's kind of the way she plays. Really aggressive, and when it comes off like today, she can really hurt teams. Yeah, I think she batted really well.

There's a saying that the hole is greater than the sum of the parts, which I think is pretty much what you would say about this group. I do want to single out one person, though, because she's a bit of an enigma on your side. She is fire and ice a little bit. Half the time. Mutter's uncapped. She's in her fifth World Cup. We might not see her back here on this stage again. What does she mean to South African cricket? Because she's ridden the highs and lows.

Yeah, she's been absolutely phenomenal for so many editions of this tournament. Really sad that it's possibly her last one. I think the whole group really wanted to win it for her, but, yeah, I think she's been so great for South African Cricket. She's sort of two players in one and we're very lucky that she's on our team.

Well, you guys have been absolutely wonderful for women's cricket this tournament. Commiserations today, but congratulations at a wonderful tournament.

Thank you so much.

Thanks, Laura.

It's an incredible story, the Shefali Verma tale. Daniel?

Well, it is because we first encountered her as this prodigy. We couldn't quite believe we were seeing our eyes. She was hitting the ball harder, cleaner than anybody we'd ever seen. Certainly somebody at that age. She was driving veterans like Catherine Siva Brunt completely berserk. When India came to play in England, she was 16 when she burst onto the scene, we thought we were going to see her just being around forever. But then, of course, there's quite a production line of good young players coming through in India these days and Pratikarawal just showed, I guess, more consistency. She was building great partnerships with Smriti Mandana and as a result, she wasn't in the squad. She wasn't in the starting 11. She got a chance because of that unfortunate injury and she's ended up player of the match. Might be quite a contentious decision, but for me, she top scored. She gave India's innings their momentum and she took those two wickets at a really crucial moment. If you want to talk about impact of a player in a World cup final, Dipty's figures look great, but she cleaned up a little bit at the back end. But like Anya Shopsville did in your World Cup Final when she picked up six. Any person to take more wickets in the World Cup Final, but Shefali was the one who turned the game really with the ball and such an unlikely thing to do and, and bowled so magnificently. Well, just, just a word, though, on South Africa. You know, we're all thinking that this will inevitably result in a win at some point for South Africa. Well, Laura Wolfhart will still be around, but the concerns I have is that some of those players are getting a bit long in the tooth. We're not going to see much more of Marazan Cap. You wouldn't think Ayabonga kaka. It's been around for quite a long time and it's a side that it's not old, but it's aging. And so the fear is that this was a really important moment for them. And will being a losing finalist again be enough to create the interest and put the money into the game? We said before this game we thought that actually the consequences for, for a nation might be greater for South Africa than they would be for India at all. Moot now because we know what the result is. But I do feel for Laura Wolfart when you've performed like that and you've had such, two such brilliant innings and knockout games and to come out on the losing side must be a very bitter pill to swallow. And for Marisan Cap, who this will be her last World cup game and she's going to end it as the leading wicket taker in World Cups. He's been such an important player them for years and, and in their campaign here. So yeah, there's a lot to digest, isn't there? But at the moment I think we have to park South Africa and what it means for them because tonight's going to be all about India. The game finished at exactly midnight and I dare say there will be puns galore around that, but the party is not going to end. I'm not sure it's going to end ever. Yeah, I don't think it'll still be going but we leave on our flight on Tuesday. It's brilliant to watch. And the crowd is still here. They're all pretty much all still here. They just want to soak up every single last moment of this. They want to see that trophy get lifted. And I think we're going to see a fair few tears.

Prakash, tell us what will the reaction be like over the next few days?

I think first of all, all the newspapers and TV channels are going to have a huge amount of content. I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow's papers weigh a few grams more than they normally do. Today's was sort of the build up to it, but I just think frankly Henry, that this is something that is a. I think it was Dan who said, who writes these scripts. It's, it's in a way apt that in the city of Mumbai, the home of Bollywood, this, this whole theory or this whole script of India winning a home World cup for the first time in, in the women's game now emulating and hopefully going ahead of the men doing it first time at home in 2011, 14 years ago in this city, albeit at a different stadium and a few, few fair kilometers away from, from Marine Drive. But this is going to be massive, massive in, in every single way, whether it's resources, sponsorships, more people coming out to play, the bcci putting more funds and resources behind it and I think the inspiration, the belief that you can do it. Remember that 10 of these 11 girls who played today have not played in a World cup final.

Ever.

Well, there was only three of them that played in the 2017 World cup final. It was Deepti, Smriti Mandanan, harmony, Preet Core, the captain.

It's something that's really remarkable and I dare say that I was there in 2011 when the men won the World cup at home. I am going to make this statement because I mean it, Henry. This is so much bigger in so many different ways because for these girls and for women in general, this is going to be phenomenal. Well played, Harman Preeth and well played South Africa. We had a fitting finale to a tournament that had its ups and downs, but in the end has delivered the.

TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live at the BBC. We go further so you see clearer with a subscription to BBC.com you get unlimited articles and videos ad free podcasts, the BBC News channel streaming live 247 plus hundreds of acclaimed documentaries from less than a dollar a week for your first year. Read, watch and listen to trusted independent journalism and stories. It all starts with a subscription to BBC.com find out more at BBC.com unlimited. What a thrilling few days it has been building up to this final with some extraordinary coverage of this Women's World cup that really been led, hasn't it, by. By the fact that India have made it through to the final. We're going to talk a little bit about what the impact has been not just here in India, but in South Africa as well, I'm very pleased to say. Joining me here in the commentary box is Zenya Dikunya from ESPN India, who. Lovely to see you. Has been watching on downstairs in the media center which is absolutely heaving full of people and what a few days it's been.

That's fantastic. I think the very fact that India is in the final as host was very, very important for the game, for the game in India specifically. But what this does is it gets this visibility which would not have been the last time India was in the final because that was England. Right. So home World cup finals, absolutely important. And you can see it with the crowd, with the crowded media box.

It's amazing. It really is. And somebody who is a very familiar voice to listeners on Test match special part of our coverage across multiple women's tournaments. And wonderful to be joined from South Africa by Firduz Munda and Firdus. I know you'd love to be here and. And watching South Africa in action, but what have you made of the tournament from afar and. And the impact that it's had?

Hi, Henry. He's in Here. Thanks for. For having me on. Yeah, it's been really great. You know, one of the advantages of being at home is that you end up watching and covering pretty much every game, which is what I've done. And I've seen a huge amount of progression. You know, teams like Bangladesh so close to beating England, for example, Pakistan so close to beating England, for example, feel like I'm going to say that a lot, but those two teams vastly improved. Sri Lanka came pretty close to a semi final spot. And to have a World cup final without either England or Australia, I think is wonderful. For the women's game, it means that we are getting teams who are getting better and better. And South Africa, they've only been professional for 12 years, so it's really not a long time. And in those 12 years, they've made three World cup semi finals across T20 and 50 over formats and three World cup finals. So, you know, the trophy is not there yet, but they've really been progressing and taking it one step further each time. I think the tournament's been great. I wish the weather had been slightly better. And obviously today also you had a little bit of a delay on your side. But, you know, from what I'm seeing from afar, it looks like people are really into it. The crowd is wonderful. Very partisan, of course, but it looks like it's been a real party.

I think that's the thing, isn't it? And when you do get the hosts and you're in the final, it just adds something different, doesn't it? And we saw that in 2020 with. With the amazing Katy Perry performance at the MCG. We saw it in 2017 when Alex's side won at Lords in front of a full house. It makes a difference and it does provide the opportunity for the game to grow in a way that otherwise it perhaps wouldn't.

Absolutely. Visibility is so important. So I spent some time with the crowd, just wanted to, you know, go to the stands and. And one of the most amazing things I found is the gender balance, which is not a very common sight in Indian cricket stadiums. You do have more men than women, but the demographics are fantastic. The second thing I really liked is watching is seeing men wear Smriti jerseys. There's even an ad about it in India about how, you know, men are a little apprehensive to wear jerseys with the name of female cricketers. And that's strange. You can see that in the crowd here. So that sort of visibility in. By just reaching the final and in the manner with which they Got there. I think that's fantastic. And that crowd is proof.

And that's the thing as well isn't does sort of extend in, in ways that perhaps you wouldn't necessarily realize. And it's just attitudinal changes as much as anything. Are we seeing that in South Africa with the success of this side?

Yeah, definitely. Look, I think South Africa, it's various things that are bringing young girls to sport where, you know, maybe 10 years ago, 15 years ago, that wasn't the case and that's that across the sporting codes you've got South African women's teams doing amazing things. The football team are former continental champions. The rugby team reached the knockouts of the World cup and that was the first time that they'd done that. So we've generally, you know, South Africa is a country with the tradition of sports loving people and generally punching above their weight when it comes to World Cups or Olympic Games or things like that. I think for me, what's also been interesting is I've chatted to some of the subcontinental captains Fatima Sana and Ningar Sultana Joti, who say that obviously in their cultures it can be very difficult for girls to get the support of their parents or to get the support of their communities to go and play. But Fatima Sana is one example where both parents were very, very supportive of her cricketing journey. And I think we're starting to see that happen. It's a viable career option. Christian, somebody like South African left arm Spinneraba who's out there with you in Navi Mumbai, you know, she's earning a living and also helping to support her family. Her family who are living in a township in South Africa which is a high density area for previously disadvantaged South Africans. And it's a viable career option now, which I think is also drawing women and girls to it. What I've enjoyed seeing is, as Zinnia was saying, not just the men in Smithy London as but the young boys in the crowd with their banners. And it just shows that excellence can be role modeled no matter the gender. And that a young boy can look at a Laura Wolfhard and think, wow, I want to drive the ball like that. So it's so wonderful to see the game grow in this way. And I think, you know, having it in India is really going to change things.

Would you agree with that? Do you think that that's the sort of thing that could have a really significant, significant impact regardless of who wins this final? It's just the acceptance that it's a viable career option for, for young girls as chasing their dreams to, to be, to be athletes and not just cricketers, but athletes more generally.

Absolutely. I think the, the 2017 World cup final, even that in the, the manner with which India reached the final, made a difference. You could see there's a more coverage, there's more interest and with this happening at home and with a couple more finals since then, these things all add up. And career wise, I mean, there are always entry level barriers for women in sport.

But again, what are those?

As Firdoz was talking about. Right. Parents are not always supportive because it can, you know, it's not a very secure career option, isn't it? And also academics and the academic pressure always comes. I mean, Smriti Mandana once had to like choose between her 10th board exams and, or her 12th board exams and playing cricket. And we're all very glad she chose cricket.

I think she made the right call.

Absolutely.

But yeah, so there are a lot of things which would stop them, but that's also changing. You know, there are lots of, you know, men and women who want their children to play sport, but usually it was want their sons to play sport. Now they're okay with their daughter was playing sport because the system is building. There's visibility, there's information, there's awareness. These things change. And you know, the fact that something like a WPL makes, you know, gives you a backup option, it's just not the national team and the system that you come through, your state teams, you have wpl, you have leagues across and you know, there are a lot of state leagues coming through where both men and women can now play T20. So these kind of things, they build an ecosystem where financial viability and a future security is part of it.

Now for those, how much credit do you think someone like Jay Shah, who has been head of the BCCI and is now head of the ICC deserves for this growth of the women's game? Because, you know, inevitably people in, in high administrative roles get a lot of criticism when things don't go well. But the growth of the women's game in India in the last few years has been dramatic.

Yeah, I think, Henry, if we're looking at where credit should be given, it's in the increased economic opportunities, which I think only comes from somebody in power going and negotiating with the people that need negotiating with. So huge prize money, for example, at this World Cup, I think it's double what it was previously. And we've also seen big money at something like the WPL Auction. But I think in general it's boards around the world who are also buying into the idea of professionalism. So South Africa, as an example, which is a developing economy, we pay equal match fees, men and women, so the contract values are not the same, but match fees are the same. And, and our women also play two, three test matches a year, unlike New Zealand's women, who don't play tests at all. So it's, it's interesting to see boards getting on board, sponsors getting on board. South Africa were only able to contract players for the first time when they had sponsorship from a financial services company. And I think it's also about understanding that women make up 50% or there and thereabouts of most populations. And if you're going to, to grow the sport, you've got to go in the direction of, of everybody. Right. It's almost similar to me to when we talk about transformation in South Africa. And for a long time the argument was, oh, but people of color don't have a history of cricket, which is incorrect, but it's 80% of our population. If you want to grow the sport, you've got to be reaching out there. The same with, with growing women's sport, I think. And so I think as in terms of getting visibility of cricket out there, you know, I remember 2017 World Cup cup was the first time the South African woman had played on television. Now all their games are televised. So that is coming from, I guess, ICC level and the people in, in charge. But I think the boards around the world also deserve some credit for the way that they are trying to step in.

Yeah, and that's, you know, a huge shift, isn't it, in terms of, of where boards are looking at the opportunities. And let's not, let's be perfectly honest, it's not always entirely selfless because they'll be seeing the financial opportunities for commercial deals because women's sport is commercially incredibly viable, full of potential, and there could be an awful lot of money to be made. I mean, look at this scene in front of us where we've got a packed stadium, fireworks everywhere you look, and one of India's biggest stars performing the halftime show. You know, it's. The potential is vast cost.

Absolutely. So to bring you back a few years when women's games were happening around, there's usually free ticketing. You know, you can enter, you can just register and enter. There's no cost. So you're trying to bring people, you're trying to attract more people. Then comes things like wpl there comes television deals, media rights, IPL teams come in, there's merchandising, there's sponsorship. There are so many things that are happening. And while the normal, you know, the World cup has nominal fees, I'm sure that that free ticket barrier is, is also going to go away very soon in Indian women's cricket. I think we're going to be able to fill in stands in various cities. I think this World cup has proven that people are interested. It's not just, you know, a free event anymore. People want to watch the women's game and that economic opportunity is always key. Otherwise nothing. You know, whether it's cricket, whether it's any aspect of life, you need to be able to make money. And women's cricket is making money now.

And the more that is invested into it, it's such a, in so many ways a fail safe investment because you know, that high level, good quality sport is going to see a return on the investment because it's going to look good on television. People are going to want to watch it and, and it is ultimately going to be something that boards can make money from. Going back to 2023 and the, the World cup in South Africa that had that amazing final, not least because of the moment, I suppose. And in the final and ahead of the final and everything else in Cape Town, what's been the impact in terms of the recognition of the South African women's side since then?

It's been pretty good. I think probably the best thing that came after that 2023 World cup was the professionalization of our women's domestic competition. So we have six provincial teams, teams which we could have more, but I think they've done well to limit it to those six teams. And they are now contracting 66 female players in the domestic system and then the 16 nationally contracted players. So there are, you know, 80 odd people making a living off cricket in South Africa who are female and that's been brilliant. I think the other thing that's been really important is you'll remember that 2023 World cup was also the first season of our SA20, which is South Africa's franchise T20 competition. And the SA20 runs a schools league and that runs with girls and boys schools as well as with co ed schools. And the schools league has been hugely successful, especially among the girls schools. It's brought through someone like Karaba Meso who's the wicket keeper on tour at the World Cup. She played a couple of games there, she's just 18 years old and Karabo Meso was the leading run scorer in the most recent version of the SA schools competition. So what you're seeing is that the, the development is really happening. A lot of our men's cricketers come from elite men's schools. That's the thing with South Africa. We have excellent schools and they produce loads of cricketers. Women is slightly different. We produce them through academies, mini cricket programs. But now this SA 20 Schools program. So the legacy is twofold. It came from the World cup, it came from the franchise tournament. And we're seeing more and more girls playing cricket and interested in cricket.

And what about general sporting public interest in terms of, you know, TV audience numbers, people through the gate to watch the games?

Yeah, look, South Africa is a sports loving country and it's one of the things that really bring the nation together. So there is huge interest. Of course having cricket only on the paid television subscription channel is difficult. But today for example for the final, it's been made available to everybody on that subscription. No matter what level your subscription is. Okay. You still got to have one. I guess. It's not on free to air, but we are seeing good crowds come in when the women play. And we're a hype nation. Right. We've had a great year in sport, a great probably two and a half years and we've managed to hype the country up spectacularly for this. So there's a couple of watch parties going on today. It's a Sunday afternoon, it's a beautiful summer Sunday afternoon here in South Africa and, and people are really, really into it. Very importantly the people who are into cricket, women's cricket in South Africa, it's diverse. We've got all the race groups, we've got gender, age. And that to me is really wonderful because our women's team has always been so representative. They represent the full socio economic spectrum of South Africa and that's who you're seeing supporting them.

Yeah, and that is really interesting, isn't it? The fact that it isn't just your typical sporting audience. What about the scene around India this evening? What will your typical cricket loving public be doing? Will they be crowding around the televisions in the way that, the way they would do for a big IPL match?

I'm 100% sure they are. You know, you get these broadcast numbers when the match is live on the streaming service and you can see the counter go up, I think against Australia, the semi final, it was a huge number. It was, I was watching from here, but I know there were like crores of people tuned in and I got reports from home saying that suddenly there are firecrackers and it's post Diwali. Why are the firecrackers and I like India are in the final of the World Cup. So I think those firecrackers are very indicative of Indian cricket fans happiness. Every big victory, there are firecrackers irrespective of the time of year. And well, it's a very cultural thing. But you know, if Mumbai is bursting firecrackers for the women's team reaching the final, you know that there is a level of fandom that the team has reached now.

My thanks to. Thanks to Fados and Xenia, thanks to Alex Hartley, Fion Wynn, Prakash Wakanka, Daniel Norcross and Phil Long, as well as every other commentator who's made this World cup such an incredible few weeks. That's it for the TMS podcast. Make sure you're subscribed so you never miss an episode. Focus now, of course switches to the Men's Ashes in Australia Test Match special. We'll be bringing you coverage of that every every ball of it live from down under starting on 21st of November. Daily podcast throughout the whole series too. You don't want to miss any of it, but from a bouncing Navi Mumbai, it's goodbye.

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