Women’s World Cup: Review of the tournament at the halfway stage

This BBC podcast is supported by ads outside the uk. Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'm here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I've got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcasts who define tough.

And that was the first time that.

Anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes. Wherever you get your podcast, you're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live. Why don't we take this opportunity to take a look back at the tournament so far, put it into a bit of context and sort of gaze into our crystal ball and take a look at where it might be going. We Daniel Norcross, World cup winner Alex Hartley and Estelle Vasudevan and we've had. Now I don't want to call this game off, but I'm going to. We had 16 matches in the first in the group stage of this World cup and looking at the table so far, well, if this game is rained off, there's every chance of it. England and Australia will sit at the top of the table having played for 1, 3 with 1. No result. England would be ahead on net run rate quite considerably after their thrashing of South Africa who put in a pretty calamitous performance. However, they bounced back from that thrashing. South Africa won their next three games to sit in third place on six points. India, the hosts, they're in a bit of peril actually. They've won four, so played four, they've won two, they've lost two, they've got a healthy net run rate which certainly stands them in good stead. They have four points behind them. New Zealand on three. Having had that washed out game yesterday again that they would have backed themselves to win but were in danger of losing, they would have needed their highest second innings score at a one day international. Bangladesh, who have really impressed in this tournament are in six with two points. Sri Lanka are in seventh place with two two points on every team having played four. Pakistan, if they get this point today, will get their first point on the board but they'll be languishing right at the bottom of the table with a wretched net run rate. So let's let us take us back I suppose. Look at Australia first. They're at the top of the table to their opening match and they've just been absolutely magnificent.

Alex Hartley in really un. Australia Ways I know throughout this tournament they found themselves in trouble, but they've got themselves out of trouble in magnificent ways as well. But they are once again proving why are, why they are the best team in the world.

It's, that's the thing though. You see that when Australia march remorselessly to victory by scoring, you know, 320 for 4 and bowling aside out for 180, you always think that at some point, Estelle, they might mess up. What has been way, way more ominous for every side has been that things have turned around for them. They were 128 for 5 and Ash Gardner then got 115 from 83 against New Zealand. Against New Zealand, you know, they went on to win the game by 89 runs. That'll wash out against Sri Lanka. That can happen to anybody. Against Pakistan they were 76 for 7 and 150, 15 for 8 before Beth Moody hit that ridiculous hundred alongside Alana King. What was it? A partnership of 106 for the ninth wicket only separated off the very final ball of the innings. Good grief. And then against India, India looked like they were going to get 360. I guess Indian fans would have thought, doesn't matter, 330 is going to be enough. But it was never going to be enough. And it was actually the loss of those wickets in the last five or six overs that came back to bite them as Alisa Healey thumped 142 against India in a record One Day International chase. So Estelle, I don't know whether the rest of the teams in competition take heart from the, you know, the peril that Australia have found themselves in or become utterly deflated by the fact it doesn't seem to matter. They're like the Black Knight in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. You can sever arm after arm after leg, but it'll still come back fighting. The difference being more like a hydra, actually just grows another head. It's sort of, it's, it's kind of petrifying for the rest of the teams, isn't it?

Yeah, it is. And you've got some quality players on the bench as well. They've, they've been switching between Georgia Waram and Sophie Molyneux in the spin bowling department. Georgia Wall sitting on the bench probably won't get a game unless there's an injury, so. So they've got so much quality. I think Sri Lanka is probably the only team that's happy with their result because they've managed to steal one point off them. Right apart from that as you said, what's ominous is that they found themselves in difficult situations and different players have stepped up. You've got Gardner getting that 100. Perry's got runs in the last game. Healy's form, I think that will be massive because she's had a very lean run of things. I think she. She spoke about how she was struggling in the nets as well, struggling to strike the ball, cleaning. So that 140 will definitely give them a lot of confidence. That's the big concern, I think, for the other teams is that how do you really close them off? How do you finish off a game against them?

It's three players with hundreds, two of them in really awkward circumstances and one leading from the front and making a chase of 330 look pretty regulation. I know they had a bit of a wobble at the end, but, you know, we've seen the depth of their tail, Al. And on top of that, the bowling resources, you just can't quite. They got eight bowlers, possibly nine. Yeah, they don't bowl at least Perry.

Yeah, well, yeah. The way you get on top of Australia is to put them under the pump with the bat. You've got to. Once they're bowlers have gone at five, six and over, they do get rattled and they don't really. You've got to get past plan B for Australia with the balls. You've got to go to plan C, plan D that we were talking about with Lisa Stellaca just a few nights ago on the. On the podcast there when Australia were playing. You've got to try and get them to go to the plans that they never have to use. And India did that in a way when they played against them the other night and they got 330. But India's downfall was the fact they should have got 350, 360. And Australia managed somehow, as they always do, to cl and on a flat surface chasing 330. I always felt like Australia were going to do it.

They got three remaining games. They play Bangladesh and no one should discount Bangladesh because they have. We'll come to them later. But they. They have been awkward, but let's face it, they're playing against Australia. That would be a monumental shock. They play England in indoor on a flat deck, it looks like. Then they play South Africa. If we job forward into the latter stages, we all acknowledge, I think, that Australia will definitely be in the semi finals. It would take a statistical as well as tricketing miracle for them not to make it. Which venue would they be more Vulnerable in. I'm conscious that we're on abc, by the way, and we're trying to scenario build a way in which Australia could be beaten. Apologies to any of you listening in Australia.

I'm not sorry.

We're just trying to find hope for every other country in the world against remorseless and brilliant machine that is Australian women's cricket. Because they're very different environments, aren't they? Guwahati, Navim, Mumbai. We don't quite have enough data on yet, but the expectation is that it's going to be much better for batting. We've been to Guwahati and we know that it really isn't.

Yeah. I would say if you're playing Australia, you, you'd want, and you need spinners, you want to play here in Colombo or in Guate. And I think you, you put them under the pump with the bowling, with the bowling as well, but also are gonna play at the minute indoor like England are. You've. You've got to take advantage of that and you've got to take advantage of the flat surfaces and put their bowlers under the pump. You know that it's going to be one of those surfaces where it's batter friendly. So therefore you, you have to go, right, we've played these games where 340 has been enough, but we have to readjust. 340 won't be enough in indoor. It's gonna have to be up and towards and if not more 300.

It's hard to know against. I mean, their bowling line did look a little vulnerable on a flat day, Estelle, didn't it? Because if they're spinners, if Alana King isn't quite getting that purchase, this isn't having to go at any of them. But Sophie Boulogne as well, a big ripper of the ball on good decks. If you trust that deck and somebody gets in and plays in innings. We've seen players play innings against Australia before. Harmon Preet, Chummery. You know, it does happen. There is a fragility there. But I just bring you to Annabelle Sutherland for me. She's been one of the seamers of this tournament and I didn't quite see it panning out that way. I thought they had other seamers that would supersede her, but she comes in in the middle overs. She's got incredible box of tricks on that flat deck. The other day she pulled a couple of into the pitch, slower ball, short balls that stick on a pitch that nothing else is sticking on. Bamboozles Batters where every, every base is covered.

Yeah. Annabelle Sutherland's got a great slow ball, doesn't she? Back of the hand and she seems to hit the seam every time she bowls it. I think that's why she's been able to get that grip. But as Alex mentioned, I think it's, it's. It's a theory that people have had for many years. Right. You put. Put their bowling under pressure and there is a bit of vulnerability there, but we don't often see it. So you need something special from the batting lineup. Maybe in a. On a track like indoor. If you're chasing against them, that's where your opportunity comes.

I also think the way Pakistan played against them and that got them under pressure. Had that have been India or England, would they have been able to finish the innings? Would they have been able to be a little bit more clinical? You've got to take advantage when Australia, sorry, are having a bad day. You've got to be able to capitalize on that. Otherwise just, just this juggernaut that are never going to be stopped.

Yes, well, let's never say never because Pakistan gave everybody hope.

They did.

They did give them home. And look at 115 freight Beth Mooney did inside edgeable, just past a leg stump on another day. That does.

But it wasn't the other day.

It wasn't the other day, but we'll look. It's like monkeys and typewriters. If you watch Australia often enough, you'll see them lose.

I can't remember the last time I saw them lose because I obviously didn't do the T20 World Cup.

It's got to be in a knockout game.

No, I enjoyed that. Again, apologies to Leicesters back in Australia, but that did come as a massive shock and it was.

But it can be to come in a knockout game because you're probably not going to have them eliminated in the group stage because you have to consistently do well against them. So something special has to come. It was bosch in the T20 World cup, wasn't it? And then you've got the likes of Harman Preeth who have played those innings against them. They need something special to topple them.

Now, they might not finish top of the table because as I say, they've got to play South Africa and they've got to play England and, you know, if Natsima Brunt has a day out, if Australia's batting just for once doesn't sort itself out, they could, for example, lose that game, but the likelihood is they will finish top the side that finishes top place against side that finishes fourth fairly standardly. The ones that finish second and third play each other. India have their semi final guaranteed in Navi Mumbai, which is a sort of de facto home of women's cricket in India. And so where who plays we have yet to find out because it'll be determined by whether or not you're playing India. If you're playing India, you're playing in Navi Mumbai. If you're not playing India, you're playing in Guwahati. So let's take a look at the side in second place and that is England. And I just don't know how to assess their World cup so far, Al. They played as near as dammit the perfect game of cricket in their first outing in Guwahati. I mean, I don't know how it could go better than bowling out South Africa for 69 and getting 73 in the end or 72 for none. Lindsay Smith has been superb coming in and opening the bowling on those surfaces. Then they really didn't look at all convincing against Bangladesh. I know they got over the line in the end. You'd say comfortably, you'd look at it and say it's four wickets with plenty of balls in hand. They were 78 for 5, they were 100 odd for 6. Heather Knight should have been given out. Caught at mid off a stand by that. There was an error, I think by the third umpire. She was pretty lucky to survive. An original decision of out with. There was an inconclusive knot out on the referral. She lived the most charmed of charmed lives. I guess what I'm saying is where are they? They were within a hair's breadth of losing that game. And against Sri Lanka, were they convincing? They were pretty convincing in the end, yeah.

Look, I think going into this tournament we knew the problems that England have and knew the problems they were going to face. And they got their tournament off to an unbelievable start and a start that I genuinely didn't think would happen. South Africa, for me were going to be one of those teams that could be England, England could beat them. You know, it's their England are better on paper, should be better, should be beating them, but you never know which version of South Africa are going to turn up.

60, 40 kind of thing.

Yeah, the version of South Africa that turned up with a version that they all decided not to turn up for work that day. Like every single one of the South African players said, not today, we'll try again tomorrow. One of those. They all pulled the sicky. But England were fantastic. I'm not saying they weren't they. Lindsay Smith was phenomenal with the new ball, as you say, as she has been throughout this tournament. My worry is for England is how much at the minute are they relying on Nat Silverbrun and Heather Knight with the bat in hand. They've got problems with the ball swinging in to them and they've still got problems with the slow left arm spinners and the slow bowlers. That doesn't change overnight. They've had those problems for a couple of years. We saw it in Australia with the Ashes. But what has impressed me in this World cup is they've managed to find ways to win which we haven't seen in the past. We've not seen for the last two or three years in big tournaments, in knockout games of cricket, they've fallen under pressure. It's almost like they've reverted to old school cricket at times. I'm ignoring today's game. It's a completely different conversation topic, topic of conversation. But they found ways to get over the line when their backs have been against the wall. And that has been a real difference for me. And that comes from attitude and that's what's changed.

Do you agree with that, Esther?

Yeah, I think at the end of the day the results matter, right? And they've come out despite having difficult situations. So far they've been successful. So I think that's what they need to take out of it. Sure, you learn from, you know, the difficult batting conditions and you learn from the struggles you've had against spin. But at the end of the day, you want the results to go in your favour and that's what they've got. They've got the wins under their belt and they'll have to take confidence from that. I think it also is a good thing that if you look back at last year's World cup, they looked so good. They looked like a team that was difficult to beat and then, you know.

Blew it against West Indies in one go. I mean, in that situation, it's one of those really rare ones. And it's happened to South Africa in the men's game quite a bit, hasn't it, where they found themselves unbeaten but the net run rate hasn't been quite sufficiently good enough. And then they found themselves in a de facto quarterfinal. They've only just realised at the last minute. Suddenly the pressure comes on and they tighten up here. I just get the feeling that they're not that sort of a side. I feel that they're looking further ahead as well. I mean, I don't mean they're playing the game further ahead, but they, they.

Feel a bit smarter.

They do feel smarter, yeah. And Alice Capsi said that, didn't she? I mean, she said she felt there was. There was a. Something different in the camp along those kind of lines.

But it's no surprise when you've got Charlotte Edwards, Luke Williams and the analysts that have all been together for so many years and won WPLs, they've won the hundred, they've won county cricket together, that they're. They're a formula within themselves. Those three, they know how each other work, they know what to do. And then from the outside, it looks like they know tactically how to change teams. You know, going into the World cup, their first game, England played one out and out seamer. South Africa played four. England, I was saying I hope England have. Haven't got this wrong because I've got a real pro. I've got a real fear that they might. And tactically it was perfect.

Yeah, yeah. South Africa had totally the wrong team selection. And yeah, in that sense, their game smarts do feel better. My concern for England is what you've mentioned is that I think of the leading contenders, they have the most brittle top seven. They're relying on Nat Siverbrunt, which you can understand because she's world leading. She picked up her fifth World cup century. No other woman has managed that many in World Cups. It was a brilliant knock here the other day. They've got Sophie Eccleston, who's a leading bowler in the world, bowling magically. But they're batting the. The top two don't look quite right. Emma Lamb's batting in a position where she's very uncomfortable. She's batted her entire professional life in the top three and she's now batting down at number six. Coming in in very different situations.

Quite frankly, in all the games. She's coming when England have been in trouble.

Yes, exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think, you know, Douglas is very fine player, but I know there's no point in comparing against the likes of the Australians, but I'll compare with the Knights of South Africa, Nadine de Klerk. She probably shouldn't bat at 8, but she does bat at 8.

Yes. She needs to be ahead of Jafta.

Yeah. We'll come to them in a minute, but do you know what I mean? They just feel like that little bit too brittle and then I don't feel that they've quite got the power 8. And 9. So when they get onto these really wonderful pitches which require 330, 340 from somewhere, Amy Jones and Tammy Bowman have to start scoring runs as do you know, Dunkley, because it can't just be other Knight. And that's.

No, it can't be. And I feel I saw a stat actually before which I'm going to steal from Nick Friend. So as it stands, Nat Silverbrunt and Heaven Knight have scored more runs between them than the rest of their teammates combined this tournament. And that says something within itself, doesn't it? And I know Heather Knight got England over the line.

Well, neither of them batted in the first match.

Neither of them batted in the first match. N has had that brilliant century. Heather Knight had that brilliant knock against Bangladesh of 79 not out. But between them they got more runs than everybody else combined. And, and that is a concern, I think the, the glimmer or the little shining light just ever so slightly down there has been Alice Capsi. I think she's shown real maturity in this tournament. Against Bangladesh taking on today out in the middle lap, trying to absorb the pressure. Yes, she probably shouldn't have played that sweep shot when she did. There's so much time left in this game. But she showed a little bit more of what she's about in this tournament.

Well, the flip side of all this is that they've been playing on the more difficult services and they're about to go to the better services. So it'd be perfectly reasonable for their batters to say, well you can't compare us with Australia and India because they've been able to show their skills and their smarts. Roads and we're about to go there. The other side of that equation is that England's last three games are among their toughest. They've got South Africa out of the way, but they've now got to play India and Australia in Indore where we will be traveling tomorrow. And they finish off the whole campaign with the only 11 o' clock start against New Zealand in Visikapatnam. And if they lose the next two games, that could be a crunch game. So we could be back in Dubai, Sharjah territory where they're playing in effect a quarterfinal. So it's very, very difficult to game who's going to have what points because anybody comes to Colombo, it could just be abandoned. Anyway, let us move on. With a quick nod by the way to Ecclestone, 4 for 17, fifth on the list of all time wicket takers in the women's game across formats and she's 26.

So she's not playing this game today. Right. Because of illness. But she could quite easily become the leading wicket taker in World Cups. This tournament being her second 50 over World Cup.

That is frankly insane.

Yeah.

But it'll be a challenge for her going to those flatter decks and against sides that won't treat her with quite the same deference.

But will it be a challenge? This is where I'm really interested because she plays so much T20 cricket around the world on flat decks and she still picks up wickets.

Fair point.

I'm intrigued.

Yeah, well, it's white. There's so much to look forward to in the tournament. We are over halfway in the, in the group phase. Three more rounds to go. So 12 more games. Let's look at South Africa who began their tournament. We've mentioned it already in completely abject fashion. They picked the wrong team. They've got the wrong batting order. They were absolutely dismal. Since which time, in superb South African fashion, they have turned it round completely. They have won their next three games and they've won important games. I mean, beating India was an absolutely massive win for them. And they've done it by, you know, at times looking dead and buried. Looking right out of it. They would. They were nearly beaten by Bangladesh. So you could see the wobble side of it. The other side of it. Let's not take anything away from Bangladesh. But they nearly threw that away. Barizan Kapp threw a wicket away. Nadine De Klerk was doing our best to throw a wicket away at the back end of that game. But Estelle, I don't know. They're turning into the sort of the men's Pakistan team of this tournament. You have no idea what South Africa is going to turn up.

Yeah, they're a very dangerous side. I would say that batting lineup has got a lot of power, as you said. The Klerk batting at number eight probably should be higher up in that order. But if you add Anari Dirksen into the mix, they've got some serious power now.

They're picking her.

Yeah.

I mean that was the big question. Right. Why wasn't she being picked in that middle order? Because she got runs in Sri Lanka in May during that tri series that they played here. A couple of really special knocks over here. So that was a big question mark why they weren't picking her. But with her in the lineup, you've got players who can, who can really like those game changing players. Right. Obviously cap with the ball as well, so they're one of those teams nobody will want to take lightly. I think they'll be very, very dangerous once. I say once, but you know, in the semifinals, a team, any team that comes up against them, whether it's Australia or India or England or New Zealand, they're going to be really dangerous because they can pull off that, you know, special performance.

I guess again, it might depend where they're playing, Al, because they look a bit more comfortable on flatter decks to me because it looks like they've got the batters for it and they back quite deep. I mean, we've seen another hundred from Tasman Brits, her fourth ODI century in five innings, a fifth this year. Nadine De Klerk twice helping them out, getting an 84 off 54. I know it was a nervy win against Bangladesh, but they, they did get over the line. It's a nervy win for England over Bangladesh. They just got over the line. I, I think they'd rather play their semi final in Navi Mumbai, wouldn't they?

Yeah, I think so. But my only thing with South Africa is if they bat first, do they know how to set a big total? I think when they're chasing they can be a little bit more free. You've got Tasman Brits at the top of the order that can just go, right, I'm going to take the game on. If I fail, I fail and If I get 100, I get 100. It seems to be one or the other at the minute. And you've got obviously Nadine de Klerk coming down with the back end of the the order with Chloe Tryon who both can hit a big ball. So I feel on flatter surfaces they're a better chasing side. There's something about me that says they don't quite know how to set a 3:30 that India did the other day.

Laura Wolfhard has yet to fire yet. She presumably will at some point because you look at her career and she doesn't go very long without scoring a lot of runs. So there is that for them to look forward to. My concern for them is I don't really see where their big wicket taking options are. Marisan Cat with a new ball. Yes, but she's not bumped particularly well this tournament and she's not been entrusted with all of her overs either. Feels to me Estelle, like, you know, Malaba's in a little bit of a dip. Everyone got very excited about her a couple of years ago. Maybe she's a bit more exposed bowling 10 overs than bowling 4. I don't know where South Africa go to on a flatty if there's a big partnership developing.

Yeah, that's where the, you know the tactics of whether they are better chasing team comes in.

Right.

Because they don't know how to set a total. But at the same time can they defend something once they set a total? Because as you said, you don't really see that many wicket taking options. They're really missing someone like Shabnim Ismail at the top, aren't they? Because she was the one who is to provide that kind of aggression. Now it's all falling on Cap's shoulders so that'll be a concern for them going forward. So they'll want to play on the flatter tracks, want to get that batting lineup doing most of the work.

I wonder if Cap is carrying something for her not to be bowling all her overs or is she saving herself for if and when they qualify. So she's managing some sort of workload and then towards the back end of the tournament maybe when they need her she'll bowl her 10. I don't know.

Well, it feels like it's going to be a last 50 over World cup and that will motivate her fancy. In fourth place, India and they've had a well in out tournament say the least, but they've won two, they've lost two. They started brightly but when I say that they beat a Sri Lanka side that I think was within an early catch of Amondjot Core away from putting themselves in a very strong position to win that game and that rather covered up a certain number of problems. They lost to Australia which anyone can do, but they sort of threw away not a winning position but a good position with the bat. They beat Pakistan. I mean, I know I'm saying this with England having not batted awfully well against Pakistan, but they've never lost to Pakistan. India's women, they don't lose to Pakistan so that really doesn't tell us a great deal. And they've lost to South Africa. So their two wins are against Pakistan and Sri Lanka. They've got to play some important times. They've got a game against New Zealand is going to be massive. The game against England is going to be massive. Estelle, is there just a sense that the pressure of playing in the expectation of India. We've been in India for a while and you turn on the telly and it's pretty demand and adverts absolutely everywhere. There's spree tea and dipty and Harman Preet shirts everywhere. The country's really got into it. But this is a different kind of pressure playing a home World cup, isn't it?

Yeah. It's not easy being an Indian cricketer, is it? Because you've got so many eyes on you, so many expectations. I think given that they had the preparation they did against England and Australia coming into this tournament, there would have been a lot of expectations. I know lot of it were calling. A lot of people were calling this tournament to be between Australia or India, the champions. Right. So lot of expectations on them and they haven't really dealt with those expectations. Well, as you said, the tournament opener, that could have been a loss. I think even if Sri Lanka had missed those oppor. They did miss those opportunities in the field. 270 still didn't look beyond their reach if a couple of players had, you know, stuck around. So they didn't really look particularly good with the ball. And I think there's a problem with their combinations as well. They're playing the extra batter. Only five bowling options. So that's putting them under that extra bit of pressure because again, once they're setting a total, 330 looks like. Like a great total. That was the highest ranches in. In the women's game. Right. But you, as Alex said, you always got the sense that Australia is going to chase that because one factor of that is that India have only five frontline bowling options.

It's a really strong point, you know, and one of those bowlers, Kranti Gowd, is very promising, but very young. And you've got the good bowlers but stay rather dipty. And you want a sixth so that you can assess the conditions and perhaps balance how many overs. Each one gets a little bit differently.

When you look at every other team in this tournament. They've got more than five options with the ball. Whether you've got a little dibbly dobbler or a little part timer that can come in and bowl. I think Harman Preecor under bowls herself. I think she used to be an amazing offspinner. I know she's had shoulder surgery. She struggles with that shoulder. Whether that's the reason she isn't bowling. She bowled one over against Australia, which went for 10. But she has bowled a couple of overs in the tournament. Tournament and been pretty effective. But if she can't bowl, they're gonna have to try and find someone else. They have to, because there's. There is so much pressure on the five bowlers, like we were just saying. And I just think it's always good to have that backup option.

With Risha Gosh batting so well with Amanjot Core batted really well against Sri Lanka, a genuine all rounder. Is there a case? I hate to say this because I think she's a marvelous player, but it would be Harman Preet on form because Harman Preet scored 21, 19, 9 and 22. But does Jemima Rodrigues have to step down to find another bowling option to put in there?

When you, when you look at their team, it's either Jamema Rodrigues or Amundrot Kaur. And I think Amundrot is a fantastic player, fantastic young talent. Jameema Rodriguez also the same. You know, she's got. There's a score always around the corner.

Gotta get another bowler in though.

But they, I, I agree.

And Dipty and Amadjok can both bat. And Snay Rana, I know you were skeptical. Big ball down the order. So you know that sometimes they do pack their batting but their coaches come.

Out and said we're not changing the batting.

Well, okay.

Harleen Diol is another one, I think. Who, who hasn't? I mean, she's made the runs, but has she really put any pressure on the bowling teams? That's a question. Because when she and Pratika back together, that slows down the innings immensely.

Right.

So you need players like Mandana to play big innings, to score quickly and that puts the pressure on Jemima Harmanpreet to come later on in the inning. So I think that's also something they can look at, whether they want to push, to push Jemima to three and maybe leave out Harley and Diola.

I'd want to get Renuka in there somehow.

It's the somehow, isn't it? And when you're looking at the team, I think they're playing their best eleven, but I also think they're a bowler shy. It's almost like they need the super, they need the WPL super sub, if they even have that. They've got it in the men's game in the ipl. But it's one of those. They're playing the extra batter a bit like England are, but they don't have the wealth. Having enough all rounders.

Well, their tournament is going to come into very, very sharp focus over the next week or so because their next game is against England in indore on the 19th. And then they play New Zealand. They need to win at least one of those games. They play Bangladesh last, but they shouldn't Be taking Bangladesh lightly because we come on to them shortly. So this is the great thing about tournament. Once you get to this stage, matches really, really do matter. New Zealand next up are in fifth, they have three points. Their remaining matches against Pakistan, India and England, which is a big ask, but at the same time it's a big opportunity because they're in fifth and actually in a way you want to be playing against your rivals in order to be able to leapfrog them. They've had one win and two defeats as well as that disappointing raind off game yesterday. They lost their first match against Australia. Sophie Devine got 100 but it was in vain. Oh, what a surprise. Then she scored 85 against South Africa. They beat Bangladesh by 100 runs, but it did lose to South Africa. So when you lose to South Africa and Australia, you've got to find one of the other two sides. You've got to be able to beat at least one of those. And not getting both points against Sri Lanka does cause a bit of a problem, I think. I feel at any rate that T20 World cup was magnificent for them, that their team spirit could work, their role clarity could work. Their lack of a bowling penetration was covered up. When they all bowl four overs, when they bowl 10 overs and it's 50 over game and Susie Bates is long in the tooth, they're being exposed here. Too much is on the shoulders of Sophie Devine in 32 degree heat, age 36.

Yeah, I absolutely agree and, and Brooke Halliday and Mike, you know, I feel like they're the three that are really trying to carry this team at the minute. Obviously they've got decent bowling attack as well, but it's got to the stage where you meet somebody like Katie Martin down on the field and she's going, right, we need you to beat them and them to beat here and we need this game to get rained out and blah blah, blah. So it's almost like they're clutching at straws now to qualify and I feel like our top four are pretty much cemented.

If they were to come here and it's rained off against Pakistan, they'd have four points. You can't go through with six. They'd need to beat both India and England. Is that going to happen, Estelle?

Yeah, it's looking very, very unlikely I think at this point. New Zealand, as you said in the T20 World cup they were good but you know, they kind of found ways to win out of situations that maybe they shouldn't have been coming through 50 over game is a lot harder than that. Right. You have to have that sustained pressure on the other teams. And as you said, the bowling hasn't really looked penetrative. And they had no one make runs apart from Sophie Devine and Brooke Halliday. So a lot will depend on her. And she's got wickets as well. So yesterday, the way they bowled, I think Sri Lanka took care of Emilia Kerr well, and then they didn't really have that much trouble against the other. Other bowlers. So that will be a concern for them, because if. If teams tend to do that, go at four runs and over against Kerr and attack the others, then they're in trouble.

We're talking about India having that sixth bowler, aren't we? Well, I think on the flip side, New Zealand against Bangladesh had eight bowlers, but eight bitty bowlers. You know, they've got their five, and then they've got Maddie Green and Brooke Halliday. I mean, Brooke Halliday has a knack of taking wickets, but it's also horrific to watch balls off the wrong foot. And it's almost like, oh, God, what's happening out there? No, I don't want to see that. Get it off, get it off. But can be effective as well. So. But I think when you bowling eight bowlers, you're, you're, you're searching for something apart from if you're Australia, you have the luxury of having eight bowlers.

Yeah, yeah, I agree entirely. So look, again, their whole World cup is about to be defined. If they can beat Pakistan, I think get enough time to beat Pakistan, then they could possibly get through by just beating one of India or England. If they don't, they'll need to beat them both, and it won't be long before we find out. Bangladesh, we're now into the three teams we expected to be in the bottom three, and there's not as much to say about them because they're not really contenders. But Bangladesh have been my favorite team of the tournament because they produced the greatest heartbreak. Alex Hartley, correctly, as it turns out, identified them as the side that was going to. Was most likely to produce an upset. They have been most likely to produce an upset, but they haven't managed to produce no.

They could be four from four, which is so sad, isn't it?

They've destroyed us. Al, let me run you through their story. They had England at 78 for 5. They had him just over 100 for 6. And we've talked about it the head of the night. They arguably should have won that game. They had New Zealand 38 for 3 to beat Pakistan easily in their first game. Their bowlers have been superb. Their batters have failed them time and again, although we have seen little shoots of recovery with shorter actors. Super quick. Fastest 50, I think, by Bangladesh woman. Before this World cup, they'd only won one ODI World cup match. They've got a chance against Sri Lanka if it doesn't rain.

But they'll be playing that in Mumbai.

Oh, they're playing that in Mumbai. They've got a chance. They've got a chance and they play against Australia and India. I'm not going to rule them out against India. I probably would rule them out against Australia, but, Nick, if they. If they continue the way they. They're bowling. Their bowling has been magnificent, Al, their.

Bowling'S been really, really impressive. I think Marufa, actor at the top with the new ball, getting the ball to swing in and then the occasional one to swing away has been such a dream to watch. I think she's been fantastic and she's been backed up by other bowlers as well. The only thing is, right, and I mean this with the most greatest respect, their bowling's great, their fielding's all right, they can't catch and they can't bat.

Yeah.

And. And that's where these teams that we're going to talk to about Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, they all have the same problem. The catching against South Africa was abysmal. They should have won that game. When they're under pressure, they're obviously panicking. They're not really being. They've obviously won games of cricket to be here at this World Cup. They have very deserving to be here. But how many times have they been under pressure against the top teams? It's not very many. And it. And it is showing with the bat in hand and in the field.

Well, let's talk about them in the round with Sri Lanka and Pakistan because in a way we can lump them together because they don't have any victories between them to speak of, because they only had the one game against Pakistan that they were able to win. And it's. They're very contrasting in the strengths and the ages of these teams. Look at Sri Lanka, they're quite an old team. Bangladesh have got some real youngsters in there, likes of Shawna Rakt. I couldn't believe how many games she played. Just coming up to 19 years old, unbeaten, half century the other day. You've mentioned Marufa, so they've got a mix of experience and youth and they've got in their captain, Nigas Ortana, Joti somebody that they really coalesce behind. She knows her cricket, she knows what she wants out of her players. They feel to me of those three teams like the ones who at the next World cup could do more than spring a surprise they could actually bring themselves into that pack.

I feel like they could be in and around the New Zealand pack.

Yeah.

Just a couple of wins away from, I think just having a bit more confidence.

See the thing is like having covered Sri Lanka, I think we'd had that situation many times before but it's between World Cups that you really need to see progress and that hasn't quite happened. So bit, you know, you have to be a bit, you know, cautious with teams like Bangladesh as well because how much support and how much resources are they getting back home? I think that's the big question. You're seeing a lot of youth coming through and I think that's, that's true for Sri Lanka as well where you have a lot of under 19 players coming through who performed well in the World cups, the under 19 World Cups. But how much is being done to actually progress? You know those players in their 20s, 25, 30 onwards, where players are really hitting their peaks that will be important for them because they've shown that they have the bowling lineups to in these conditions in particular really trouble the batters. But where are the next batters coming from? Sean Akhtar has been brilliant in the last couple of games but that top order, are they able to score quickly? I think that's the question because when we look at the lower ranked teams and I think speaking from a Sri Lankan point of view, in the recent past the success has come because the batting has gotten better and the batting has not been dependent on one player. Of course Atapat II is massive and, and has a massive impact on, on their success but you've had runs coming from other batters as well. So Bangladesh need to find that they can't be dependent on Jyoti making the runs or Sean Akhtar coming in at 7 or 8 and making the runs for them. So that those are the areas that they need to really develop if they are to be competitive in, in, in four years at the next World cup.

They only really put England under real pressure because Roubaix are batting at nine insanely got a 26 ball, unbeaten 43.

Yeah. So where did that come from?

Nowhere, you know and we were watching Sabana Mostori just dotted up for hours and you thought if you, if you want to win this game, you've got to show some ambition. Now, it turned out that they might not have had to if Heather Knight had been out. But, you know, it's. That's. They're just going to get a bit more confidence into their battle.

I think it's a lot to do mentally as well, because against Pakistan, again, a lot of dot balls. They weren't looking like any other team would have wanted to get those runs quickly, get their net run rate up. But Bangladesh was so focused on winning that they were happy to play down, play cautiously. Mossary is actually attacking batter. And that game against England, she was happy to just stick around and not do much. Right. So I wonder how much of it is mental as well. Like the confidence, as you said, do they have the confidence to really attack and go for it, knowing that if they do fail, they've got the backing of the coaches or the administration back.

Home to finish off on these two teams? I want to ask you, especially Estelle, if Sri Lanka were to get out of the park, beat Bangladesh in Navi Mumbai, if the rain relented and they beat Pakistan, they ended up with six points in this tournament, would that be seen as a success?

I don't think so. I think they would have come into this tournament thinking that they can beat at least one of South Africa or New Zealand. I think yesterday they had a chance of doing that. I mean, it would have been New Zealand's highest chase, was Sri Lanka's highest total in a World cup as well. I think they would have had a good chance of defending 258. If it was a shortened game, those chances would have, you know, lowered. But they would be disappointed if they come out of this tournament with just two wins under their belt because they've beaten, I think, yeah, the last four teams that they're facing. And India over the last 18 months, they've beaten. They've had success against those teams. So they would be disappointed if it's just the two wins they come off with. But like, I mean, looking at how Bangladesh have played and Pakistan have played in Colombo, those aren't. It's not a given that they'll end up with wins in those games.

No, but they do still have an outside chance of qualifying because if they do win their last three games, South Africa here, Bangladesh in Mumbai and Pakistan back here in Colombo, they could get to eight points. And the way this is going, that might be enough for them. The net run rate won't be too bad after basically some washouts. And the like. And let's finish off with Pakistan. And I put on that voice that sounded sad.

Well, they've just got England 79 for 7.

Well, they have and they had Australia 115 for 8. So they have had some really good high points and.

But again, pressure situations. Can you cope under pressure? I mean, there's a. Maneba dropped a, an absolute sitter early on in Capsi's innings. Dropped her for eight. Yes, it didn't really count for much, but it could have. Not many runs for Capsy. But it's the time that Capsi then spent out in the middle. England could have lost a couple of more. Couple more wickets. They could have been 80 all out. They could. Could have been 79 for 8, who knows? But I think with the ball, very impressive. They've been impressive throughout. You know, the, the skipper, Fatima Sana leads from the front. You know, they've got some brilliant spinners, left arm spinners that have brilliant variations. It's just again with the bat. Where's the power coming from? Where are you able to build in innings and get up and around? 250, 260.

So to finish off on all this at the halfway stage, what's been your biggest surprise? Could be a player, it could be a team.

My favorite surprise has been Bangladesh. They've been brilliant. Probably a surprise is probably too harsh. I mean, they qualified because the West Indies chased down a total too quickly. So let's not beat around the bush. You know, West Indies should have hit a four letter six. They hit a six and the game was over and they needed a four. You know, so there's a chance that the West Indies would have been here. I think Bangladesh have competed way more than the West Indies would have done. Having seen the West Indies at the start of the year in the uk, Bangladesh has been just a lovely surprise and I'm looking forward to seeing if they improve between now and the next one.

Estelle, for you.

Yeah, I've got to say the same. They've been really good to watch. I am surprised that they've been this competitive because even at the qualifiers I think Pakistan very comfortably beat them. But they came out here in the first game of the tournament for them and they were all over Pakistan in that match, right? Particularly Marufa Akhtar, I think has been so, so impressive and good to watch the celebrations. Everything has been good to watch. I saw her in one of the warm ups as well. She got boulevard just with that in dipper, I think South Africa for nine for three. Or something in that warm up game just because, you know, she'd got three balls right up top. So she's been brilliant to watch and they've been good to watch. It's been sad to see how those games have ended. Some tears after the game against South Africa as well. But I'm sure they're learning a lot from these games and it just takes a couple of wins against good teams and then you know you're on a roll, you've got that confidence and know how to win and that'll put them on the path.

And finally, before we finish off at this stage of the tournament, we've had 16 matches. Not enough of them have been completed for all of our likings. But who has been the standout players for you? You can have a batter and a bowler if you want.

I'm gonna. It's a big cop out, isn't it? But I'm gonna go. Ecclestone, obviously. Time and time and time again, just so good. And the other day when she was getting the ball to spit and bounce, it was just so beautiful to watch. And I was like, this is why she is the world's best. And I've loved Sophie Devine and I know she's the leading run scorer, but knowing it's her last tournament and seeing her play with the freedom that she's got, knowing that she's retiring from 50 over cricket at the end of this, it's almost like Sophie Devine from 10 years ago. And it's been so good to see her just play with so much freedom and it just makes you happy going, you know what, whatever happens to New Zealand, she's scoring runs and she's probably going to finish with a smile on her face.

I'm going to allow myself one. I'm going to throw in big nads. Nadine De Klerk. I think she's been fantastic and so necessary and completely undervalued at number eight.

Head her up the order. She could go at six.

Yeah. Who's for you? Estelle?

Yeah. For a moment there I was going to say jefter because I was thinking Risha Ghosh has been superb at the lower end of the Indian order again batting at number eight. She's such a talented player and so good to watch. Not been great behind the stumps, but with the bat. She's been brilliant with the ball. Ecclestone. Just to watch her in Colombo the other day, the way the control she had over that innings was really special.

Hello, it's Ray Winstone. I'M here to tell you about my podcast on BBC Radio 4, History's Toughest Heroes. I got stories about the pioneers, the rebels, the outcast who define tough.

And that was the first time that.

Anybody ever ran a car up that fast with no tires on. It almost feels like your eyeballs are going to come out of your head. Tough enough for you? Subscribe to History's Toughest Heroes wherever you get your podcast.