Women's World Cup: The Final Preview

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds hello and welcome to the Test Match special podcast. It is almost Women's World cup final time and what a final we have to look forward to. We're in Navi Mumbai, the venue for what will be a blockbuster occasion as India take on South Africa. The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds.

Well.

This is Henri Moran overlooking the scene here in Navi Mumbai where the tuk tuks are driving the lorries trundle up and down the highway and around about half a mile from here, history is going to be made. We are going to have a new winner on the Women's World cup trophy for the first time since 2000 as India take on South Africa. Two surprises in the semi finals, two extraordinary games of cricket and so much to look forward to. Over the course of the next half an hour or so we'll be getting some thoughts from both sides of the camp. From Abhishek John, John Wooler and also for Deus Munda. And here our team alongside me surveying the scene. Alex Hartley, a World cup winner with England in 2016, 2017 test match specialist Daniel Norcross and also BBC Sport cricket writer Fion Nguyen. First and foremost, Alex, we have to look at India. We have to talk about what an occasion this is going to be and the fact it could be game changing for the women's game not just in this country but around the world.

Yeah, yeah, whatever happens it will be game changing but if India win, it's kind of scary as what will happen to the women's game, they'll probably become this juggernaut, a bit like Australia where they just dominate women's cricket moving forward. It's, it's really exciting but also pretty scary actually. So they win the competition. Just think of the money that's going to get pumped into women's cricket. Think of the thousands, millions of young kids that are going to be inspired by watching this team. It's, it's a really exciting opportunity for India. But the pressure, there's so much pressure around India now.

There is Daniel. And there is suddenly this sense that the eyes of 1.5 billion people as they were in 2023 on the men's side as they headed to arm and about to take on Australia, suddenly trained on the DY Patil stadium on Sunday afternoon.

Well, it is and it will be sudden as well because if you talk to people around here, there hasn't been a massive amount of awareness of the tournament so far.

Do you not think?

No, absolutely not. Speaking to some people yesterday, I asked them specifically about that semi final and they went, oh yeah, that game, yes, that went viral, didn't it? But now they hadn't really been aware particularly of how their women have been going up to that point. But massive occasions, a place like this, when something massive happens. When they beat Australia, it was all over the news, it dominated the news cycle. And people very, very rapidly shift their attentions to whatever's happening, whatever they're being bombarded with. And what they're being bombarded with was incredible stories, redemption arcs left, right and center. The captain, Harman Preet, core who came from a very, very modest background. Jemima Rodrigues, a Christian who had been dropped earlier on the stories coming left, right and center. Dipti Sharma, a very humble woman from a humble background. And suddenly it's the stories that come with the players involved that suddenly their backgrounds are made available. People are aware that you can make it to point the very top in Indian cricket and you can earn eye watering sums of money nowadays from the women's Premier League which is only going to get more and more investment whether they win or lose, frankly, tomorrow. And then suddenly cricket becomes a legitimate profession. It becomes something that fathers want their daughters to get involved with. This is a process that won't happen overnight. I don't think we're going to have an Indian juggernaut in the next five, 10 years because players have to be created and developed. But what will certainly happen that gradually and probably with a bit of a burst of attention having come now, there will be changes and those changes won't just necessarily be in cricket. You know, talking to some of the sports writers around here, they say that a big boost for a woman's sport can help other women's sports as well. It can legitimize sport as an activity for women and young girls to play. So it sort of goes beyond just cricket. It can, it can creep into society and wider society. I don't expect those changes to happen overnight, like I say, but it could be the start of a process that has wide ranging consequences.

Something that really struck me fion yesterday morning, the morning after the night before from that semi final was the gym at the hotel accommodation where we're staying. I noticed the highlights were on the television and slowly but surely every single person in the room stopped what they were doing and was watching that inning from Jamima Rodrigues and it felt as though, hold on a minute, this is a moment.

This is huge.

Everybody's involved.

Yeah. And it's felt like with this Indian team in particular, with a lot of these players, the likes of Harman, Precourse, Mrtimandana, Deepti Sharma, it's always felt like a matter of when, of when and not if in terms of they'll win something. So they came so close in 2017, they came close in 2020 and it was always just a case of once they get over the line, that'll be it. They could go on and get that monkey off their back, get the pressure off themselves and they could potentially fly. And that semi final was, we were all saying it when we were watching it, one of the best games we'd ever seen in terms of the quality of the batting, in terms of the skill, in terms of the occasion. And for Jamima Rodrigues, I mean, think of what her limit is now in terms of, you know, how much we see Smriti Mandana's face on billboards and adverts. It could, I mean she could go stratospheric from here.

Well, let's hear a little bit of that amazing post match interview with a very emotional Jameema Rodriguez.

Firstly, I want to thank Jesus because I couldn't do this on my own. I know he carried me through today.

I want to thank my mom, my.

Dad, my coach and every single person who just believed in me throughout this time. It was really hard these last whole month, but this just feels like a dream and it's not sunken yet, Alex.

It was one of the great games of cricket.

I think it. Well, it was definitely the best run chase I've ever Seen, you know, it broke records, that. That run chase. I sat there at the time, I was like, I think this could be the best game of cricket, women's cricket, I've ever seen. And I think I stand by that. Just for the occasion, the. The knockout occasion of it, the fact that they were playing Australia, the fact they managed to get over the line, it was just an incredible game of cricket. It was entertaining. You know, the first 10 overs of the Australian innings, we were sort of like, okay, well, let's go for dinner. We know what's gonna happen. Then halfway through dinner, as we're watching it, we're like, hang on a minute. Something different's gonna happen here. Australia are gonna lose. Nah, they can't lose. India probably bottle it. And they didn't. You know, they bottled the run chase against England and they learned so many. We must have learned so many lessons from that, because they then played Australia and didn't do what we all thought they would do.

I mean, it's amazing, isn't it, that a couple of years ago, we were at a T20 semi final when India played against Australia. The two batters at the crease that were up for a really big run chase were Harman Preet and Jamima Rodrigues. And they were cruising to victory. Then Harman Preet got a bat stuck and was run out. And Jemima played a daft shot to a ball that was well over head height. And they were devastated because they would probably have gone on to win that World Cup. And then the two batters come back together and they have the most consequential partnership. It's a proper redemption arc. But just on the subject of the chase generally, when Jemima was dropped on 82, they still needed 131 to win. She scored 45 of the last 131 runs. We must remember the other people involved in that chase. Risha Ghosh, Amanjota at the end, Dipti Sharma. Because you don't chase 339. If someone gets 127, not out of 130, something without all the others contributing as well. She anchored that innings brilliantly, but she needed support. And they will get forgotten in this narrative because of Jemima's big knock, because she got the hundred, because of how it happened, because of the tears of the end. But what made that one of the great chases was that it was a team chase. Every single person in that lineup struck it faster than Jamima Rodriguez, and that's what made 339 possible.

Do have a Listen. In the no Balls archive with Alex Hartley and Kate Cross to an interview with Jemima Rodrigues, because she's a fascinating character. Bubbly, entertaining, plays the guitar. She's got so much, so much to her story. But. But Alex, I want to ask you about Harman Preet Kaur, the captain of this India side, because she's somebody you've played alongside in domestic cricket at Lancashire. And she's a really fascinating character to me.

Yeah, she is. I mean, it looks like she's trying not to lose her cool every 10 minutes these days, which is probably quite a good thing. You know, we've. We saw it in 2017 when she got her century and she shouted at her partner at the other end when she was batting. You know, we've seen her lose her head many, many times on the cricket field, but this, this tournament, we've seen a different side of her. She's smiling, she looks relaxed, she looks like she's trying to enjoy the game, but she's a person that, you know, she's failed way more times than she succeeded. She. She lives off the back of that knock in 2017. You know, she's not really done all that much since, but the other day she got a Vital Runnable 80 and helps India get over the line. And she's still so good. She leads from the front and she is somebody that you want on your team. It's got to be a last. It's got to be her last 50 over World Cup. Got to be a last ODI. She'll want to go out on a high if they win. Wouldn't surprise me if she hangs up the boots.

What's she like as a person?

She's great. She's great fun. She's so, so much fun to be around. I mean, there's just a couple of memories that stick out for me, but she first joined our team, obviously had a bit of jet lag on the team bus, fast asleep. So I'm drawing on the bottom of her feet and like, I thought she's gonna turn around and slap me in the face. But she was just looked at her feet, laughed, went back to sleep. Like she was just like, I'm gonna concentrate on myself.

Beyond as characters and stories and backgrounds, this Indian team. From a writer's point of view, it's a dream, isn't it? The whole story is, yeah.

The whole thing is it's a whole blend of characters and a whole blend of people and backgrounds. And just speaking about Jemima Rodrigues in that interview, you know, she Said she grew up playing cricket on the streets with her brothers when she was four years old because there were no women's teams and she didn't know that women's cricket could be a thing. So it's quite apt in the, in that sense that she is now part of the change, part of the, you know, things coming full circle for her. I think that was part of the emotion, you know, the fact that she was in Mumbai, there were so many people, you could see her picking out people in the crowd to thank and to. And she had her dad and her brothers there at the end. And, you know, it's just in terms of what it can do and in terms of how things are going to change. As Alex said, this is almost feels like a new world order is on its way.

There's a really lovely picture you can find on Twitter of the very young Jemima Rodrigues In 2017, waiting with friends all in India kit boys and Girls for the 2017 India team to come back to arrive at the airport after they'd lost that final. And there she is. And you can see, can see the older Jemima, but also the young, enthusiastic, desperate Jamima, the one who pulled, put on the kit and said to herself, I'm going to be that player. I'm going to represent India. You've got story like that. We heard a story the other day about Radha Yadav, who's an unsung member of this team. She played a lot as a fielder, basically has come in right at the very end, actually to do some bowling. That the money that she got from playing WPL she siphoned into making into buying a grocery store for her dad, who has very modest background in Mumbai. So, you know, the consequences of their success filter into wider society in this way. And the background stories of it are just the stories of, I guess, fulfilling dreams. And that's what I guess we all love about sports, isn't it? Because you can get, if you win a World Cup, I mean, there is no greater dream to be fulfilled. And if you do it for India, for a nation of 1.4 billion, then it's completely nuts.

Do you know what I'd love to happen at the end of this World cup is for girls in India not to have to pretend to be boys to play cricket, that they can actually be girls moving forward. Whatever happens tomorrow in the final, India win. They lose. I just hope that young girls can grow up wanting to be girls and play cricket rather than having to cut their hair short and pretending to be boys.

Because we have heard stories of this trial.

Verma happens all the time. I just hope that, you know, girls can be girls and play cricket rather than having to be someone else.

We have heard, you know, in discussions with journalists here. Daniel, over breakfast the other day, over a coffee, we, we were chatting and it was the conversations in comparison to say an English or Australian cricketer where, you know, you go to school and there are opportunities to play sport and there's opportunities to play cricket. Whereas actually hearing stories about dads having to pretend they weren't taking their daughters to go and play cricket because it wasn't seen as something that was a legitimate thing to be doing.

Yeah, dads and uncles and the amount of time that they put in secretly training up their daughters to be good at cricket, it's kind of crazy. The struggles that people have in this part of the world are different. Everybody's struggles, they exist, they're legitimate. You know, Australian cricketers don't not struggle. Their biggest struggle is that there's so many very, very good players in Australia that getting into that side requires an enormous amount of dedication. There's all those stories. There'll be those stories in England as well. Let's face it, women and girls don't get the same sporting opportunities. So that is changing. But here the stories are absolutely heart wrenching some of the time. You know, these are struggles that are almost unfathomable for people in our country.

Let's hear from Abhishek Janjanwala, former IPL star, key part of our commentary team across this tournament. Who knows what the impact could be if India do win this tournament.

This has got everyone excited in India earlier. We go back five or seven years. I mean there was falling for women cricket, but only from people who loved cricket. But now everyone follow women cricket in India and that's what WPL has done, that's what this young team has done. They bought such a huge crowd and the atmosphere on Sunday, it'll be 1.5 billion people glued to their TV. 40,000 odd people in the stadium. So many people outside the stadium. Yeah, it'll be electric. I mean it's difficult to describe those sort of atmosphere in India. Obviously the game is growing at a rapid pace. Cricket for women is growing at a rapid pace. In the last four or five years we have seen some huge changes. But if India managed to win the World Cup, I mean we were talking about the commercial aspect and how it's going to change completely for women all over the world because it's all going to trickle down. And we know how much money BCCI brings to the table in men's cricket and I wouldn't be surprised if that game changes completely for women cricket as well.

Well, in a moment we will be reflecting a little bit more on South Africa because there are two teams in this final, of course. But don't forget Test Match Special will be bringing ball by ball coverage of that final from 9:15 on Sunday morning from here in Navi Mumbai. And don't forget also Ashes coverage begins. Not long to go now for the Men's Ashes. Lots of build up material on BBC Sounds, the TestMatch special podcast. Just hit the subscribe button.

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The TMS podcast on BBC Sounds it's easy to think that there's only one team in this final, particularly when you're here in India and all the headlines and the billboards and everything else fon But South Africa themselves have an opportunity and it is a big opportunity and for them they will see history beckoning.

Yeah, it's for either team it is their first World cup win and for either team the consequences of it could be game changing. South Africa, you Know this is their first 50 over final, reached two T20 finals in a row and have been heartbreakingly defeated in both of them. And you can really see the emotions on the faces of, of their players when those things happened. And you know, Laura Wolfhart is their kind of, she's their leader, she's their inspiration. I was thinking of her knock against England the other day. That 169 is how lucky we were to see three great centuries across those semi finals in Wolfhart, Litchfield and Jamima Rodrigues. And that's testament to a how far the game has come. But just in terms of the skill that Safko have on offer, I don't think any of us expected them to beat England, let alone to be beat them in the way they did. It was so comprehensive. I think the issue for them will be have they had their final, you know, was that their complete performance against England and can they back it up, you know, without relying, perhaps relying too much on Wolf art and cap in front of a crowd which, let's be honest, there's not going to be many people cheering for South Africa in that crowd.

Don't think there'll be anybody there for South Africa, especially when the friends and families are in the corporate boxes. It's, it's gonna be a wild, wild day and a night. And it's how South Africa cope with that pressure. A bit like India as we spoke about, but you know, South Africa, for me, I was wrong about them. You know, they, they beat England. I didn't think they had a chance, but they outplayed England in a way that I just didn't think they were capable of. If they can stand up again against India, then they have such a good chance of winning this World Cup. They've had hard heartbreak of being knocked out in semi finals of finals of World Cups. They know what it feels like. Fion said, have they had their final, I think they'll have learned so many lessons of being knocked out of those World cup finals. So moving forward they'll kind of know how to stay in the game and what it feels like to be on the end of losing those massive moments. But somebody's got to win. And it's one of those, it's like, who are you backing? Who? I think South Africa could win if they bat first. I don't think they'll be able to chase, but who knows? I've been wrong the whole tournament.

Let's hear from journalist from South Africa for espn Crickinfo Fudos Munda, who thinks that history could be on the cards for the South African side. Can they do it?

You'd have to say yes, because they've done some incredible things that we didn't think was possible, you know, even up until a few days ago. But I think with where South Africa have to be careful is that what happened to them at the T20 World Cup? The first time they qualified for a final, when they beat England in the semi finals here at home, was that they were absolutely surprised and shocked beyond measure. Nobody could believe that they were in a final. Then they were in a final against Australia. And that was just complete emotion playing in front of a home crowd. Everybody just celebrating the fact that women's cricket was really coming to the attention of the majority of South Africans. So I, I think we can write that one off. As, you know, the emotion got the better of them. But it's last year's T20 World cup final that I think will be a good reference point, because South Africa played one of the games of their lives to beat Australia in the semi final and then just faded away completely against New Zealand. And listening to Laura Wolfat after the England semi final this time, she said, we really need to think about that because we don't want to play the final before the final. So we've got to make sure that there's enough reserve in the tanks, that there's enough energy, enough game plan, enough tactical awareness to be able to go and approach the final like it is a bigger game than the semi final, even though the semi final was so important.

Well, it'll be fascinating to see how it all plays out on Sunday afternoon. Daniel, what about the significance for South Africa?

It's. Well, it's enormous. We were there for the T20 World cup and we visited the High Commission. We met some girls from the townships, didn't we? And we were. We were exposed to what they have to undergo, the struggles that they have to undergo to get into that side or to be. Just to be accepted and to be allowed to play any kind of sport. There's similar kind of problems and barriers to entry in South Africa as there are here. And there's a whole bunch of women who've also got lengthy backstories. There are five players in that side who have played three semi finals. Running Sun, Elise Ayabonga, Kaka, Marisan Capp, you know, Wolfhard herself. These people, they've been struggling for ages to get to where they now could be, which is the World cup winners. And I think, I genuinely think they've Got a more than a puncher's chance. We talk about Jamima Rodriguez innings. The best innings of the tournament has been Laura Wolfhard's and they're going to play at the DY Patel Stadium, which has got very, very good conditions for batting. The strength of both of their sides lies in their batting. It could be a shootout. And with players like Marisan, Cap Wolfhardt who've got so much experience, Tasman Brits who has just been unfurling hundreds for fun this year, she's had five of them this year. Chloe Tryon's been around the block. Sune lease, you know, they have got experienced players who have also got massive motivation and in a way the pressure is not as on them as much. The insanity and the fervid atmosphere that we witnessed the other night against Australia is only going to be double in a final. Now that can help or it can hinder. And there could be a clarity of thought that comes with the South African experience as well as the fact, as I've said, they've been through it. More of their players have actually been through this ringer and this disappointment than the Indian team. So I'm, I'm certainly not ruling them out.

Well, remember in 2023 when Pat Cummings said the best thing about a loud crowd is silencing them. So if South Africa can kind of do something similar, get India on the back foot early, it's amazing how quickly that crowd can go quiet and can start to get a bit nervous and that could, you know, that could impact India and how they, you know, especially let's say in the pressure of a chase, for example, if South Africa are able to put runs on the board again, I think it's, it's so interesting to see how, you know, when they get this opportunity, South Africa, how they handle it. But for somebody like, like Mara Zan, Cap is their kind of big game player, you know, she is somebody who kind of embodies everything that South Africa have been through. You see her celebrations when she's getting Heather Knight and Amy Jones out in the first over. I thought we all thought she was going to combust with just how much it means to her. She's been playing for South Africa for so many years and yet everything single time the anthem is played, she's got tears streaming down her face. This is probably more than likely her last 50 over World cup as well. So the parallels between her and Harman pre core, for example, there's all, there's so much riding on it and yeah, it'll Be emotional, whichever team comes out on top.

This could be quite an interesting dynamic, Alex, in terms of who actually holds their nerve. It's not, you know, who bottles it, but there is an element of both sides looking at this, thinking this is such a massive chance. And go back to South Africa in that T20 World cup against New Zealand a year ago, and they did rather bottle their opportunity.

They've both bottled so many games, like, they really have, because they've not, you know, women's cricket, we don't play under pressure enough. So when it comes to those big pressure moments, look at Australia under pressure. They. They're human. They're a side that we were like, hang on a minute. They're dropping catches like we've never seen that happen. We're seeing sour faces from the Australian team because, you know, they've not been put under pressure.

That smile off your face, as you say like that.

Yes. Sorry. Unlucky. It's just, you know, I think precious situations do funny things when you. When you don't know how to cope with them and you're not in them as much. India will have played in front of bigger crowds than South Africa because of the wpl. They'll have that experience of playing in front of thousands and thousands of people. They. They know they've got poster girls left, right and center in this team, especially Mandana, not even captain, probably the next captain, but she's everywhere, you know, and she manages to cope with the pressure. So she'll have spoken to the girls on how to do that. I really do think it's. It's who can hold their nerve for the longest.

Right? Yeah. I mean, it has to be, hasn't it? And I just have a sneaking suspicion that, like someone like Marisan Capp, I don't know if she really feels nerves. She reminds me a little bit of Ash Gardner, who was the one player who held it all together for Australia. She didn't show any nerves at all. Marisan Capp's just up for the fight. She just wants it so much. There's actually quite a placid calm in some of those South African players. Laura Wolfhart is the embodiment of composure, isn't she? She's quite extraordinary. But the problem is it's cricket, so you've only got to make one mistake. And because I think this is going to be a batters game, this is the key. It's not going to be a bowlers game, it's going to be a batters game. So the big batters For South Africa will have to fire. India just got that little bit more depth so they can afford the odd more mistake. So I guess what we're going to look at is the big performances from the big players might have to be that little bit bigger from South Africa than they have to be from India.

I worry about South Africa, I really do. They must be the only team that's been bowled out for under 100 and made a World cup final. Got to be twice. Twice, twice. I just hope to God they turn up. They feel like a team that they're either all there or none of them are there. They all have to be there on Sunday and they all have to want it. Just please don't get bowled out for under 100 for the third time in the tournament.

We want a good final feel and that's the thing. And the crowd will want a good final. We want to see that amazing atmosphere that we had here a couple of nights ago.

Yeah, you want it to be competitive. It's brilliant in the first place that there's going to be a new name on the trophy for the first time since 2000. So that's, you know, a massive tick in the box in terms of how other teams, not, not just Australia have developed and have kicked on. But I think the last thing is we want is a one sided final again that the, the T20 in 2020 where India reached the final against Australia at the MCG and thought this could be a huge occasion, this could be game changing. This could be the two best teams and then India were kind of, you know, skittled out in their second innings and there was never really a contest in it. The in 2023 wasn't quite the same between South Africa and Australia but there was always a sense of, yeah, Australia, Australia have got this. I think not having Australia in a final is a very, very good thing because there's, there's so much more jeopardy. There's so much more we're seeing here. We can't decide who we think is going to win and that's exactly what you want. And yeah, it could still be one sided. India could handle the pressure brilliantly and smash it and get themselves over the line and everything, you know, goes to plan for them. But if South Africa turn up, if we see the Laura Wolfart, that quiet determination that we saw from her just a few days ago, if we see a fired up Marazan cap, then yeah, a competitive game will be the biggest thing of all.

If we see a fired up Marazan.

Cap, just a Word though on the fact that we have a new winner. It's weird tournament cricket, isn't it? Because we've been out here for 37 days or so and for most of the time this World cup just went through exactly the same script and we even got ourselves to the same semi finalists in England against South Africa, Australia against India, Australia winning every game. And we thought, has the women's game moved on at all? The Minnows didn't get the opportunities perhaps to land the big blows because of the weather. There was all sorts of disappointment really about the way the tournament had just kind of rather predictably progressed to where we got to with no great jeopardy over who the final four were going to be. And we all said, yeah, but what if we got two really good semis and a couple great final. We've had actually two really good semis, albeit one that was quite one sided, but saw what are the. Well, earnings for the ages and then the greatest chase we've ever seen. So it's kind of, it's set up, don't you think, to finish on a high?

I hope so. I really do. One element of all of this, Alex, that, that interests me is the comparison. And I don't like to necessarily compare the women's and the men's game in, you know, necessarily sort of slightly lazy ways, but it does feel that the parallels between the India side heading to Ahmedabad in the men's competition against Australia a couple of years ago and the pressure they would have felt in that game. Is there any replication for the women in this game and that sense of history on their shoulders?

Well, one, one team's playing in front of 150,000 people and one team's playing of. In front of 30,000 people. It's a bit different, isn't it? And I think, yes, the pressure of, you know, having millions and millions of people watching. I think it's a real shame it's being held at the stadium. I really do. I think, you know, you're starving the chance of people going to watch a fantastic final. Yes. You know, we didn't know India would be there. Yes. If we're going off history, India probably shouldn't be there. So it's all. You can't move the final just because the team's got there. I understand that. But yeah, look, there's kind of a comparison with the fact that you've got so many people watching. I guess so many people will just be watching in a different way.

I think actually there is a comparison, but it's not the same. Nothing like the same. And we know because we've been at both World Cups and in the Men's World cup, it was fever pitch. You just couldn't move for progress on TV about that World cup and about the men. Virat Kohli, Rohit Sharma, they were everywhere. And then they proceeded to win every game. And so the whole country just got built up and built up and built up this massive moment of expectation. I haven't felt that at all in this tournament. I haven't felt that the eyes of the nation have been on the women. They also lost three games, so there was almost like if there was talk about them, there's actually a lot of criticism about them from the same kind of journalists that frequently criticize the Indian women's team within India. And so, yeah, I don't think they do go into that game in anything like the same circumstances as the Indian men. I think they've got a bit more of a free hit. I think what happened against Australia has changed the mood and has given them that bit of momentum and that, you know, we can do this now. Whereas I think actually what happened in the Men's World cup is that India had a procession, like a coronation. It did. And actually the whole competition was sort of designed in order to make life as simple as possible for India to get to that final. They got there perfectly, deservedly, as the best team in the competition. And then they got ambushed because you can get ambushed by Australia. The fact that they're terribly good at cricket.

Fion.

Yeah. I think there have been some things that have favored India. Let's not forget they played their last two group stage games and they were guaranteed to play the semi final at the venue where the final is going to be. So they were a lot more familiar with the conditions there and the atmosphere than Australia were. I'm not saying that's why Australia lost. They made a lot of mistakes. But that is. You can't deny that that is an advantage. But in terms, it's just whether, again, I think with the men's team, I don't know whether it was that expectation got to them, but for me, that's just how much more of an opportunity it is for South Africa in terms of, you know, the pressure's not on them. It's almost. It's almost a free hit for them. So it's whether they can embrace that freedom and embrace that challenge of not letting go, but just kind of telling themselves, well, this isn't pressure, this is an opportunity.

And that's so exciting for a South African side. I spoke to Nadine de Klerk earlier in the tournament and she said to me that, you know, it's gone from us going along to tournaments thinking we can compete to going along to actually believe we can win. And they'll go into this final, Alex, thinking they can absolutely win. But it's. It's just one I can't really call myself. But where do you see it going?

I refuse to comment. I've been wrong so many times. So I'm not saying you. You've been one mistaken so many times, so I'm not saying anything.

Henry Daniel, who's got it?

I think it'll be India. But the thing is, I just keep on also having this suspicion that South Africa have been so close, so close, so close, and their men won the Test Championship this year. I wonder if it's just written in the stars, it could be double world champions for South Africa.

What a thing that would be.

I think I'm gonna back South Africa too. I just think in terms of. Nobody gave them a chance against England, let's be honest. Not just Alex. She wasn't the only one. We all, we all thought that England were going to win. So that is what they can do when they're underdogs. And why not embrace it again for the final?

And it's exciting to think that between the four of us, nobody seems to know what's going to happen. And that's lovely.

Yeah. I was totting up our punditry, you know, yesterday, and we predicted the two finalists, didn't we, before the semifinals. And if you think of it as therefore eight choices, there was one that was right. Al went for India to beat Australia. The rest of us said it was going to be an England Australia final. So I'm sorry, dear listener, you've managed to find yourself some of the worst pundits known to mankind.

Well, you know, we weren't the only ones. But no, I think there's plenty more of a body of evidence to suggest we fulfil those potential particular descriptions. One thing that sort of struck me in terms of the potential impact of all of this is chatting to one of the photographers who follows the. The major ICC events. And he was saying that, you know, after the Men's World cup when they won in 2020, the parades down Marine Drive in Mumbai, he might have to delay his flights home if India win this game because the reaction is, is going to be stratospheric if they do.

Well, the, the, you know, the Parades are already being planned, aren't they, for this India side, for if they win or it feels like for when they win, because their plans are being put in place. So they better go out there and they, they better win it.

Well, there was an enormous billboard. I won't mention the brand, you can probably guess, but Smriti Marden are holding a bat and it just said just do it. And there is a little bit of a sense of that now for India.

There is, but I don't like that sort of thing. I mean, I'm very English, these matters and that's tempting fate to me. You keep all your plans quiet and if it happens, make it look like it's spontaneous because otherwise, I mean, you're just tempting terrible disappointment. And you asked about who we think is going to win and who we want to win is the other part of it. You know, I think if we're here and India win, it's going to be one of the most spine tingling and incredible experiences that we're going to get to experience. But yeah, I suppose the head therefore is with South Africa, but the heart might be with India.

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I just can't call it.

I can tell you how I want to win India.

Why?

I think what it'll do for the women's game will be game changing. What it'll do for women's cricket in this country will be game changing. So therefore I would like India to win, to change women's cricket moving forward.

Yeah.

It's so interesting that the implications of all of this fion. And, and you've written about it on the, on the BBC Sport website and there is just a sense that we could be on the cusp of something really quite spectacular if, if India win and the, the effect it could have.

Yeah. And let's not forget the prize money for this tournament is bigger than it's ever been. It's bigger than it's ever been in a men's competition, I think as well. So, you know, you can say that. All right, well, maybe India don't need that huge amount of money. Maybe it will do more for South Africa if they're the ones who get it, if they can invest it properly and if, you know, something like an SA20 for the women's team can kind of get itself going, that will make a huge difference. But in terms of the reach and as Dan mentioned, the cultural shift in attitude towards women and what women can achieve in a country like India, I think it will probably come with a Bit of a warning in terms of what's happened in the men's game, in terms of, of dominance and what other boards need to do to kind of make sure that they're still competing as well. But regardless of where the money goes, it'll be life changing.

It'll be life changing for the families of a lot of these players as well, because we're talking about the sort of money that goes a very long way in a country like this. And the same is true of South Africa. And just you mentioned SA20. Suddenly a thought occurred to me when you were saying that. Remember we did the test match, England against, against South Africa in South Africa. And SA20 is massive competition for the men, has got DRS. It's got millions and millions of pounds Rand pumped into it. We didn't have Drs in the women's test match, did we? If they win the World Cup. I know it sounds like a really tiny thing, but it's about respect. It's about respect for the game itself. And I'd just like to think that perhaps instead of us being given mealy mouthed excuses about how they couldn't actually afford the 40 or 50 grand it takes to put in drs, they might think, well, this is a product that needs, that needs care and attention. And that's, I think, what the women want as much as anything else. They want to be recognized as athletes, as sports people who are making a product that is incredibly popular, that sells shirts and sells advertising and they deserve the same respect as their male counterparts.

I'm really, really excited, I have to say. I'm absolutely buzzing. Looking out over Mumbai from where we are now that the cars are drifting up and down the road, I can see the trains in the distance and the sea beyond that as well. And at 3 o' clock on Sunday afternoon, televisions across this nation are going to be trained on the DY Patel Stadium. It's going to feel like the centre of the sporting world and I can't wait.

Yeah, hopefully. So hope the weather stays away. There's been rumors of a little bit of rain, so that better not actually happen, but yeah, all eyes will be on India.

Can't wait. Right, coverage underway 9:15 on Sunday morning UK time. We will bring you every moment of what will be, whatever happens, a fascinating and thrilling occasion here in Navi Mumbai. Don't forget, subscribe to the Test Match special podcast on BBC Sunday. Make sure you don't miss a thing. From no Balls with Alex and Kate Cross, there's an interview with Elisa Healey the Australia captain, before they were knocked out of this tournament. And there's also loads of material ahead of the Men's Ashes for you to get stuck into as well. That, by the way, gets underway on November 21st. Full ball by ball coverage of the Men's Ashes coming up very, very soon. Thank you so much to Alex, to Fion and Daniel. Thank you for listening. We'll speak to you soon. The TMS podcast on BBC sounds.

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