Wood ruled out and Stokes throws down the gauntlet

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From 5 live sports this is the CMS podcast.

In a few minutes we'll bring you the best bits From Monday night's 5 live cricket with Mark Chapman, Ryan Campbell, Eisha Guhar and Ste Stephen Finn reacting to England losing the second Ashes Test in Brisbane. But before that, it's been announced today that England bowler Mark Wood and Australia bowler Josh Hazelwood have both been ruled out for the rest of the series. Former England batter David Milan was on the last two Ashes tours, including the last one with Mark Wood. David look, we should probably give a bit of background to this because it was touch and go whether Mark Wood was was actually going to make it to the to the Ashes, was actually going to be fit for the Ashes, having missed pretty much all cricket since Febr.

Yeah, you know, I think he did incredibly well to get onto that tour. A really big major knee injury that he had and I think if you've been realistic, I don't think England expected him to play all five tests. I think they would have probably been quite happy to get three tests out of him on this tour because Australia is an incredibly tough place to go and tour. So first and foremost, incredibly pleased that he managed to get on that tour. Absolutely gutted for him. He would have gone through months of being sat in a gym by himself in a really lonely place doing the rehab. So, yeah, look, I think he's bitterly disappointed that he's had to pull out at this time, but fantastic that he got on the show in the first place.

Yeah, an incredible effort for him to, to get fit and available for, for selection for the, for the Ashes. Talk about a 2 nil down. How much more difficult does it make it for England not to be able to include him?

Yeah, I think it's a, it's a big order for them. Well, you know what, I think if the wickets keep playing as they play, they might be able to get away with it. I think they probably would have like to have had Joffer, Archer and Woody on the field at some point or, or one of them at least on the field during the tests. So I think their, their planning might have been hindered a little bit with that. But if the wickets keep playing as spicy as they are, they might be able to get away with playing a Josh Tongue, playing a spinner in Adelaide and, and maybe looking at a different way of, of approaching it. Adelaide tends to be a little bit flatter than the other ones. It tends to go into the five days. Spin plays a little bit more of a, of a role there. So. And, and you know, it is the first time that they're not playing the P Australia for a while, so it might, might make things slightly different for them from a selection point of view.

So for those reasons then, do you think it was a gamble worth taking?

I think it was. If you go into Australia, I think if you look at the last tours, especially the ones that I were on, you know, we went in with probably not as much pace as what the Aussies had at the time. The wickets were slightly different at the time. They were probably harder and a little bit flatter. So you needed the pace. But you know, the way Woody came through and bowled in the last, last series, I think it was worth a gamble to take him. And you know, the test that he played didn't go all five days. I think they only went the two days. So, you know, is gutted from that. He only bowled 11 or 12 overs, whatever it was.

There's been quite a bit of coverage of the England players who are having some time off in Noosa at the moment, and there's been quite a snarky undertone, which is because of the, the comments that England were maybe over prepared or they felt they were over prepared for this tournament and they, they certainly don't look like they're over preparing at the moment. But is it, Is it possible that they were maybe too, too tightly wound and that actually this is important time off, or do you think it. It just looks bad when you're, when you're two nil down? What's your take on it?

Yeah, I think sometimes comments in the press, less is more sometimes. I think sometimes you can probably keep those opinions to yourself. I fully understand where Brendan McCullum was coming from. Five days of preparations, incredibly tough mentally. It takes a hell of a lot out of you. So I understand where he's coming from. But at a time where your team's just been hammered and you're two nil down, you probably want to be telling the fans that you're working incredibly hard. But look, I think. I think sometimes you can lose the fact that these guys are players and they're human beings. You know, if you look at anyone who has a normal job, whether they work two days a week, five days a week, seven days a week, you know, they're able to go to the pub on their day off and watch the football or watch cricket, whatever it is. And I think it's the same, same with these guys. You know, they need to get away from cricket at times. They have to have a. They have to clear their mind mentally. Otherwise, you know, you're basically being like you were in Covid, where you just sat in a hotel and in a bubble and you can't get that release and that's the last thing we want. So I think within moderation. Yes. You know, it doesn't. It's never a good look when you're sat on the beach and you're drinking beers or whatever you're having on an off day. But, you know, they are human beings. They're allowed to get away on their off days to enjoy themselves, too.

David, I want to ask you just, just one more as well on, on Mark Wood, because he's talked about the, the future and saying, whatever happens, I'll continue to push the limits to get back again. It's been a road, but I remain determined to give it another proper go. Do you think, though, that there is a sense that this was, this was the opportunity for him and this, presumably this is the kind of stuff that's going to be. Going to be playing on his mind at the moment?

Yeah, it is, you know, probably the, the last big Tour of, of his sort of time frame. I think he's 36 years old now. So, you know, I, I wonder how many times he wants to go back to the well and how many hours he wants to be spending in the gym by himself and, and struggling with injuries. You know, I guess be his as well. He might want to keep playing cricket, whether it be franchise cricket. I guess the England coaches, selectors, director cricket, whoever's in charge after this series, it's up to them to see and decide whether he's part of their plans. I know They've got a T20 World cup in, in January or February, March, somewhere like that. So, you know, he's been a big part of that. So I guess they'd love him to be part of that and get him fit and I guess that's what his next plan will be. Obviously we don't know how, how bad his knee injury is, but.

I would.

Probably question how many more hours he wants to spend in the gym trying to get fit. And I guess that's up to him. It's an incredibly tough place to be, but only he'll know what that decision will be.

Thanks to David Muller, for joining us. Now here's Mark Chapman with Monday night's five live cricket.

So let's talk about the ashes then, England, two down, three to play their 17th consecutive Test in Australia without a win. After Australia won by eight wickets in Brisbane, one of our guests looks perkier than the other two. I don't know whether that's down to time of day or how the cricket is going. Seem to be smiling, Ryan.

Just happy with life, mate. Two young kids heading into Christmas, all.

That sort of stuff.

So Ryan Campbell is with us, current Durham head coach, former England bowlers Esha Gooir and Stephen Finn in Australia. Are you still in Brisbane, Esha?

I am indeed. Nice to see you all. I'll be heading, I'll be heading off this morning, but yeah, I'm not. I'm feeling for the England fans a little bit. I think they're probably going to be a little bit weary.

And how, how are Australians being with you at the moment? Understanding and understanding and polite.

Yeah, of course they are. They're so empathetic, especially when they're winning against England.

There's been a great deal of care, you know, arm around the shoulder. No, look, it's. I've done this tour quite a few times now and it's not easy. It's not easy for the players, but it's not easy when you're A commentator walking around and pretty much the media center is 90% Australians. It's difficult, but look, it is what it is.

Stephen struggled to look up really, since he joined this show. Is that how you're walking around Brisbane at the moment with your head down in a. Please don't recognize me, please don't recognize me, please don't talk about cricket?

Yeah, it's a kind of cap on glasses on the head down at the floor situation in Australia at the moment for former English players. Yeah, it's. It's not been a good couple of weeks and yeah, two nil down with three to go that there's like a tiny semblance of hope there somewhere, but it feels very slim.

Let's hear from Ben Stokes before we talk anymore. And the interview that we've got here is with Jonathan Agnew in the aftermath of the defeat in Brisbane.

Looking back on this game and something that can take a little bit of, I don't know, stuff happening over and over again. And it's the moments in games where the game is in a moment of. It's neither here nor there. And Australia have managed to get through those periods, whether they've got the bat in the hand or the ball in the hand and outdo us.

And that seems to be the constant theme not only in these first two games, but over a long while. So I can stand here and say, I know it's not not down to a skill thing because of the players you've got in that dressing room. They're all incredibly talented players. They've shown that on numerous occasions. But if you can't put it down to a skill thing, then you start to wonder, what is it? Do we need to start thinking about what mentality we're taking into those pressure moments? Because when we're on top, we're great. When we're behind the game, we're also very good. But when that moment of the game is neck and neck, we're not coming out on of the top on enough occasions to be able to challenge a team like Australia. And look, there's going to be some conversations going on the dressing room that I'll keep to the dressing room, I'll fully bat my players that we're able to bounce back from this and deliver what we need to deliver over the next three games, because what else are we supposed to do? We're two nil down, we've got three games left and we know we've got to win them.

Can you. Can you learn from. And watching how Australia. I mean, Australia did play a pretty decent game here tactically as well, didn't they?

Oh, God. I mean, look, probably a blur now. Oh, no, it's not necessarily blur. I think, as I said said to you there, it's the moments in the games where it's on the line. You know, is it fight, is it character? Is it the mentality that we're taking out there as a group? That's what I got to find out. That's what I got to ask. You know, there's a saying that we said a lot here in this dress room. Australia isn't for weak men, but a dressing room that I'm captain of isn't a place for weak men either. So, yeah, look, we need to. We need to dig deep. I need to dig deep and I need to. I need to get this team in a place where we do go out there in Melbourne and we are seriously switched on and understand where we are right now.

And does that involve conversations with individual players and points in this match that you will bring up as conversation points?

Individuals, individual chats, they happen constantly, I guess. You know, I think it's, you know, we are one team, but we're made up of 11 players. So, you know, when it's a team thing and as I say, if I feel like it's something that's constantly happening, then I need to address it. But, yeah, I got no doubt about the. The guys in there are capable of winning the Sachs. I'm capable within myself as a leader and as a captain and my skill set as a player. But, yeah, we can't not speak about the things that I think has, you know, potentially, you know, gone wrong over these last two games.

Ironically, there are parts of today that actually went really well, showing the sort of spirit, I think, in the character and, you know, that's down to you as well. But the way Joffre Archer ran it at the end there, a couple of wickets taken, I mean, that was. It actually looked good from the sidelines.

Yeah, and look, that's it. You know, as a captain, you try and put a little bit of your own influence within the team, as your own personal character. And all I asked for last night and this morning was from everyone who still had, you know, a responsible thing to do in this game, you know, especially with the bat, was just show, fight, take the, you know, we talk about taking the scoreboard out of the equation and I asked the group to take the scoreboard out of the equation and just fight. I think me and Jaxy did an unbelievable job at doing that. But like, you know, the guys lower down the order, yes, they have an unbelievable ability to be able to score us some runs. But you know, they're batting down the order for reasons. So, yeah, it's tough to expect more and more from them down the order, if that makes sense. You know, we've got to take some responsibility there as a, as a batting group, you know, especially that top seven.

Yeah. And hopefully to rein in some of the looser shots that have been played. Is that a fair comment?

I think when you. There's some of the stuff there, I think it's a, it's a mentality thing and again, we seem to see those kind of things in that pressure situation when it's neither here nor there. We've managed to wrestle the first two games and moments back towards us and then Australia have got the momentum back. So, yeah, I see that as it's a common theme when the game is on the line, when the pressure is on, where are we at? What are we thinking about? Are we clear to go out there and do what we need to do to get us back in the game? So that's something that, as I said, I'll be addressing all this kind of stuff in the dressing room. I ain't going to sit here and spurt it all out.

But yeah, Ben Stokes, with Jonathan Agnew saying he wasn't going to spurt it all out in the interviews. But I thought it when watching him with you post match as well. Eesha, when you did that first interview with him at the presentation, it felt like a very different post match interview from Ben Stokes.

Yeah. And you can understand why they're 20 down. You know, they come to Australia with high hopes of winning here and they haven't been able to get over the line. It's a tough place to get over the line. But I think the frustration for them and for all the England supporters is they have got themselves into winning positions. And I kind of, what I would say back to Ben is, is it, is it when the game is on the line or is it when you are ahead in the game? Because for me it's. It's always been when they're in a great position to really be ruthless and put the foot on the throat of Australia. You think back to Perth, the afternoon session on the second, they lost all those wickets in the afternoon and then Travis Head came out and did what he did. But, but actually if England got through that session, then they could have done that. You think to, you know, the. The first innings here, they got past 300, which was actually a pretty good score. Okay, You've got the new ball in your hand, you've got the opportunity to bowl under light, and they just don't bowl in the right areas consistently enough. Whenever they seem to be ahead in the game, you know, Ben Duckett and Zach Crawley, 45 off the first six overs, you know, they are taking the attack to Australia, and then all of a sudden, they just let Australia back into the game. So for me, it's. It's a case of when they're. When they're ahead and there's that pressure of expectation. That's when. That's when they seem to be failing and it's. How can you be ruthless here in Australia? He mentioned the word fight. I think they have, look. They have looked a little bit nervy, you know, the first couple of games here, they've been trying to feel their way into it. And that's when people question preparation. Because if you've. If you've got that match preparation under your belt, you come into it, first ball, you're on the money. You just look at Mitchell Stark. Every single spell that he bowls, the very first ball is right on the money because he's mentally and physically prepared to bowl that ball there so many times with this England bowling attack, they bowled a terrible ball the first couple of balls. So it's a question of being able to switch on instant. That is a mentality thing. But are those doubts, those nerves creeping in? When those doubts start creeping in, that's when you see uncertainty with the bat, with the ball.

From a coach's point of view, Ryan, you would. And obviously, you know Ben Stokes very well, I would imagine, given what's happened in the first two tests, you are delighted to hear your. Not delighted at the situation, obviously, but delighted to hear your captain talk like that, are you?

100%? This guy wears his heart on his sleeve. He's given up pretty much everything to play Test cricket for England. This is a guy that, you know, when people talk about the money in the game, and don't get me wrong, he gets paid pretty well, but he's one of the very few that has turned his back on the T20 franchise world to concentrate solely on Test cricket. Mitchell Stark's another one who's just announced that as well. So he. The England Test team is everything to him. And obviously they went there with, you know, everyone, the expectations. You know, I'm an Aussie living in England, coaching English teams. But I actually thought England were going to go there and be very competitive, and I still think they can be. But you're two nil after, you know, what, six days of cricket you haven't played probably any of your best stuff so far. And you can see a captain's literally wanting to grab a few around the year and say, hey, come on, let's get. And the beauty about Ben is he'll say that to them, look them straight in the eye and say that he's not a guy that'll go around the back and there won't be little splint off groups and nip around here there. He'll direct it straight at everyone and go, okay, now we put ourselves in this position. It is now time to get ourselves out of it. Whatever you're gonna do as an individual, you've got, what, nine days or whenever it is till we get to Adelaide to come back and you have to bring us your A game because, yeah, it has to happen.

It's really telling how reflective Ben Stokes was in that interview. Sometimes when you hear captains or coaches talking and saying something as damning as that, they're in quite an emotional state where they look angry. But he looked really considered and thoughtful in the words that he chose when he said those things. So clearly there's a deep frustration there from him at the moment that the people that he's trusted for the last three and a half years and given experience to for the last three and a half years haven't been able to make the most of the situations that they found themselves in. And as a leader, as someone who leads with his actions and the way that he carries himself around the team, it's obviously, he's found that frustrating that he kind of feels as though it's left to him and Joe Root to recognize those moments. But it can't always be those two. It has to be others as well.

If you were in that dressing room then, Stephen, and you have been in a dressing room with him, and he says his dressing room is not a place for weak men. Are you thinking, well said, we all have to recognize that, or are you thinking there might be some people who think that's aimed at me?

I suppose it's designed to provoke thought with the way that you choose words like that. Maybe it's asking his teammates to ask the question of themselves.

Is it me that he's talking about? Do I need to sharpen up in those moments? Because there's absolutely no doubt Isha's right. Over the course of the two test matches, England have found themselves in some really good positions. In particular lunch on day two at Perth. 99 runs ahead, the opportunity to press on with nine second innings wickets remaining. And then a flurry of soft wickets leads Australia to come completely back into the game on day one here England had an opportunity to put a big first inning score on the board. They didn't manage the situation around the twilight period very well. Key batters got out at key times. The same in the second innings. England well set 90 for 1. Key batters get out at key times and the momentum shifts. So, so yeah, there's certainly a lot of reflective things for, for England when, when they look upon those two games and certainly those comments will provoke Thorne.

In my interview he did say, he said the quote and then he said, now we aren't weak men but we need to find a way of turning this around. So I think it might have been just a slip there. I think what he's trying to say in that situation is very easily at 2 nil down, you can go missing. There's a lot of players that can quite easily on a tour like this. It's tough. They're in Australia, they're getting hammered pretty much every day. They can go missing and say, oh, actually this is a bit too much. He's just trying to galvanize his team to say, come on, let's, you know, let's, let's not step away here, let's not back down. Let's, let's lean into it and let's find a way. And you know, this is a team, when their backs are against the wall, they do, they do find a way. We have seen it from them in the past, you know, expect the unexpected with this side. That's why I go back to the pressure of expectation. When you least expect it, that's when they tend to come out and do well.

But also Esha. But also Esha. And you touched on this, your first answer. Yes. Expect the unexpected, but also expect the expected. And by that I mean, do you think at times I think the majority of us watching are thinking, well this is going quite well, but I think I know what's going to happen. Right. And, and therefore, you know, there are patterns at the moment. Lose three or four, you know, it's not just one wicket that goes, it's then, it's then three or four. And I wonder whether if we are all thinking that, that, that, that must be in their mind, it has to be.

It was the same situation in 2023. You know, they, they lost those first two and it was the, the Johnny Beso incident that, that really channeled their focus and I actually think it's been a bit too nicey nicey actually out here. The first kind of couple of test matches, they've all been kind of saying how good each other are and that's Australia too. So that bit of niggle with Steve Smith and, and Jo ar.

A good thing for England. I think that they need to get into the fight and into the scrap a little bit more and, and really channel their focus to, to wanting to win this game. I think what we've seen is that they've been feeling their way into this series and, and trying to figure out how to play in these conditions and, and see where they can get to. But now as you know, there's no other option. They, they have to be ruthless. It's that word again. We, we use it so much. But as soon as they, they, they do have the skill. Ben is right, they all have the skill and the ability to win these games of cricket. But it's it of when you're in a great position, how can you hold that, how can you hold that ruthlessness and bat Australia out the game or bowl Australia out the game? That's what they need to find.

Ryan, do you think when you are in a situation, just like Isha says, when you are struggling, it needs one thing triggering you all back together.

Now I'm going to sound very Australian here. This is where you need, this is where you need to pick a fight. In all honesty, they have been pushed around a little bit which is something that Ben wouldn't obviously pride himself on doing. And like Esha was saying, they've looked rattled at times. I think Jamie Smith has looked very nervous with the gloves and again, is that a product of him actually not being a full time wiki and he's just, you know, you can say who you want, he's the number one keeper in England but he doesn't keep for his counting so he doesn't do it every day of the week. And that was shown up. You look at Alex Carey and what he did that was unbelievable, you know, standing up the stumps and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I'll go back to my point. Pick a fight, whoever it is, pick someone and have a crack at them and hopefully everyone jumps in on it and you know what? You've got nothing to lose. I actually, I'll be honest, I wasn't happy with the way Archibald in the second innings, and everyone can say, that was brilliant. 150K's an hour, mate. They need that. In the first innings, there was 60 runs to win. And I know you're trying to prove something, but I'm not sure what it proved was he can bowl fast when he wants to. And again, that's that mentality that I think. Would I ever see an Australian fast bowler bowl in the first innings to save himself for the second innings? I don't think they would. And that's the thing. I think at the minute there's a few blokes saving themselves for later on, and there is no later on because it's not going later.

Do you view it like that, Stephen?

I. I'd say fast bowling is a lot more nuanced. And I was. I was a bowler who could bowl over 90 miles an hour, but some days I wouldn't. Some days I would. Some days the game situation would dictate that. That you could. But I think the thing that was most noticeable in that second innings was that England looked like 11 people against two out there, because they were in and around the batter. There was those verbals going on. There was intensity in the way the players were picking the ball up and throwing it over the top of the stumps. And that wasn't there for a majority of the first innings with the ball in hand. And that was noticeable at the ground. When it's hot and it's sticky and it's difficult in Australia, you can't just have two people buzzing around the outfield. You need all 11 to create that environment that then helps the bowler pick his knees up. It helps create an atmosphere. And it doesn't just feel like it's you against the batter. It feels like it's a legend.

Why do that when the opposition needs. Why? Why do that when the opposition just.

Well, I wonder whether Ben Stokes gave him a rocket before going out there on the field. And sometimes that can happen. You can say that was poor in the first innings. What I want us to do here is set a marker of intent to try and take into the third Test match. That's the way that I read the intensity that they went out within that second innings, not just because they were trying to defend 60 runs, which is clearly unrealistic.

We've heard from the captain, let's hear from the head Coach. Here's Brendan McCollum.

You know, we've been here before, and we're going to have to make sure we stay tight as a group and iron out a couple of the chinks and that we've shown over the last two Test matches. Because when you come to Australia, you can't be below your best and you need to make sure you seize every opportunity. I think I look at a few, few moments in this Test match and I think there was times where we had ascendancy with the bat and we probably let that slip. There was times where we didn't execute with the ball as well as we should have and didn't adapt to the conditions that we were presented with as quick as we could have. And clearly our catcher was an issue as well. And you know, it's very hard to beat Australia at home if you're going.

To, if you're to going to be.

Deficient in all three of those areas. So we got some work to do, we've got some time, but we've been here before and, you know, there's no point feeling sorry for yourself. You pick yourself up when you, and you go again.

Is there anything you'd have done differently? Looking back now, there was a bit of a break these last two tests. Would you have done anything differently coming into these games?

Not from a preparation point of view. If anything, we probably trained too much, to be honest. We had five intense training sessions leading into this game, and that's something as a coach you've got to make sure you're aware of. I think sometimes there's a tendency to want to overdo things to try and to make up for it. But as we all know, in this game, it's played in the top 2 inches, majority of it, and you got to find a way to be able to, we all have to find a way to be able to ensure that we, we feel prepared physically, we're prepared, technically prepared for the battle. We adjust to the conditions as quickly as we can, but also make sure we're fresh and we're ready and we're able to make those succinct decisions in the heat of them, in the heat of the battle which can win and lose games.

Ryan, give me a, give me a coach's perspective on, on using the word over. Prepared.

I knew you were coming for me. This one.

I, I, yeah, I, I never say anything about other coaches because I kind of understand what he's saying. I definitely know what he's trying to say, but I don't think he's read the room. I don't think he, I don't know. Are they that far in the bubble that they're not listening to all the, all the fans and all that the fans and that seem very unhappy with the way the perception of England cricket. Don't get me right. I know they work really hard. I'm not sure you needed to say we're over prepared. I think that was probably something he shouldn't have said. But like I say, the mentality of it all, he's a laid back guy. He's a, you know, he's a brilliant cricketer. The way he goes about his coaching is very similar. He doesn't want to do the same old things. You know, he's chosen a path of how he thinks that England can be a great cricket team or a really good cricket team at the minute it's not quite working but you've got to be careful. I just remember Rob Key saying something a year or so ago saying to the players, be careful of what you say because some of the words are putting us into a worse place. And that there, I just don't know how to defend that one.

Well, I know Stevie, Nisha wants to come in. Michael Atherton's written a brilliant piece in the Times today which says there is sometimes a coach will give a line and it will stick to them like glue. He mentions Peter Moore's after going out to the World cup in 2015 saying, well we'll have to look at the data which some people have now thought he maybe said we'll have to look at it later. But because of the data obsession as was perceived at the time, always goes back to Bumble and we flipping murdered them after a terrible tour of Zimbabwe. It's the problem, Stephen, isn't it, that it can be a line and whilst you may understand actually the gist of it and probably what he's trying to say, as Ryan says, it's the read the room bit.

Yeah, I mean I was going to speculate as to whether he's doing the Jose Mourinho and he's putting himself out there to take the heat off the players. I understand the sentiment of what he's saying because having five days intense hard training in the heat here in Brisbane and then trying to carry any degree of intensity into a game, it can be physically sapping. So I think that's kind of what he's trying to say and from a bowling perspective I wouldn't want to bowl that much in the build up to a test match. But. But yeah, the, the fact that that is there now is something for the press to latch onto and that's kind of a sign of Australia tours in the past as well, isn't it that one thing will be said or done and that becomes a microcosm for the tour.

I think Ben actually saved him in the presser afterwards because he explained it a little bit more. He was asked the question, what does Brendan mean by that? And Ben explained it as, sometimes you're just training to train or training for the sake of it, and you're not actually getting something out of that session that's going to help you in the game. And I think on the back of that first test, probably, you know, the media have got into their, their minds that actually they do need to prepare a little bit more and, and they felt that it was, it was good to be seen training when actually it might not have been the best thing for them. So it's a, it's a difficult one. Match preparation is always so tricky to get right. It's very individualistic. Sometimes you're doing it. If you're a senior player, you know what you need to do. If you're a younger player, you feel like you need to do things just to show every, everyone else that you're doing something, but it might not be the right thing for you. So it's, it's, it's a really tricky one. Look, the pink ball, let's make no bones about it, that the pink ball added another element to the preparation because they haven't played a lot with it. They would have, they would have caught under lights, but they wouldn't have caught under lights with the noise behind them in a fully packed crowd where it's hard to get that vision right. And Australia just, you know, they look like a team that had done it quite a few times. So I think, look back to the Red Bull for the next Test match. I think there's, you know, pretty much every single player within that, that side has put out something good at some point in the six days and that's what they need to hold on to.

Yeah. Although the thing that I take out from the end of that, maybe it's just being negative is, is six days.

That's, that's the, that's, that's four days.

Is better than two.

Yeah, well, that's, that is true, Esha. That is, that is true. And I'll just keep going on the preparation side of things because again, I'm quoting from Atherton because it is a really valid point and Aneesh has already sort of set it up, really, Ryan, is that if things work, then how it's done is praised and if things don't work, then how it's done, it's criticised and the margins are fine. And he cites Duncan Fletcher, who'd like to go into an Asha series with his bowler slightly underprepared, says Atherton, so that they may be a bit fresher for the whole series. So he does that for 2005 and everybody's full of praise for his methods. He does. Does that for the next tour Down Under. And Steve Harmisen's first ball goes to second slip and all of a sudden you're undercooked. They're the fine margins.

They're fine margins. And again, unfortunately not. Unfortunately, we're. We live in a world, especially with social media, that everyone's got a soapbox that they can put forward their view. So I'm not convinced whatever you do, you can make everyone happy, but the facts are you gotta keep your inner circle. What is going to work for your inner circle. And from the last two and a half, three years, this is how they've prepared. And generally, you know, they've got the results against the best teams. They've, you know, been found wanting, I would have thought. You know, there's lots of speculation when they're in India, should they have batted more in India on, you know, spinning wickets and learning things there. But, yeah, like I say, at the end of the day, they've chosen this path because they think it's the best for this team. Now, at the end of the day, you're going to be judged at the end of this Ashes. And remember, when Australia lose the Ashes, we cop it. Our Sheffield Shield's no good. We should use jukes, balls. We should, you know, everything's rubbish. And it's the same thing when England lose. Everything's no good. You know, we gotta change this, change that. So, yeah, whoever wins, you know, there's gonna be plenty on it and, you know, hopefully everyone's left standing by the end of it because it appears if you listen to some, someone's not gonna be standing.

I agree with Ryan. It's not just an England problem. I've been coming down to Australia for a few years now and I've watched this attack, you know, it's one of the greatest attacks with Josh Hazelwood, Pat Cummings, Mitch Stark, Nathan Lyon. But even they trying to refine how much preparation they do before a series. And they got slammed in the last series against India, they lost the first one. Jaspic Bremer bowled brilliantly at Perth, but Pat Cummins came into that having not done a lot of preparation. He went to a coldplay concert. He got slammed in the press and he very much looked underdone in that first Test match. But that's because they want him to last for the whole series. And I think that came about through when India went over and they ended up winning at the Gabba and all of the bowlers were just looking really tired in a four test match series. So I think, you know, every season comes along and they're trying to figure out how to get the best out of their bodies. Obviously no Pat Cummings, no Hazelwood because maybe they have done a bit too much in, in the build up to, to the series. But someone like Mitch Stark, I go back to it again, you know, this is series cricket and actually it's just played into his hands. The fact that he's been able to take 18 wickets in two Test matches and he hasn't really had to go to a short ball, sustained barrage means that he can stay fresh for the rest of, you know, if I was England I would be going, I want to bring him back, keep bringing him back for another spell, another spell because he is their, he is their key man, he's their kingpin. So, you know, situational cricket hasn't necessarily been there for, for England, but also thinking about the longer term, you know, what is, what is the thing that Australia don't want to do? What is going to make them most uncomfortable in this, in this test match. And I know for a fact that Mitch Stark does not want to be coming back and having to bolt, you know, the short ball sustained period because he knows that if he gets injured, he's out for the rest of the series.

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From 5Life Sports, this is the TMS podcast.

How do England maneuver themselves then Stephen, into that situation to, to, to create situations that Australia don't want?

Well, I think they have to recognize the moments in the game. They're important and it's been a running theme at the beginning of this year. Both McCullum and Stokes in their interactions with the media said that look, we've got to this point now, but it's now about winning. How do we win? We need to recognize the big moments with the games and, and act upon them. And they haven't done that. They didn't do that that through the India series which led to them drawing it as opposed to winning it and they didn't do that in these first two test matches. And, and that's what Australia have done brilliantly and probably the biggest sign of that was when Australia came on the beginning of day three and they were six down and they were 40 runs ahead and England were looking at it thinking oh well and I was there as a pundit thinking, caught an 80 run lead and then a good second innings with the bat on a pitch that is cracking and potentially going up and down could leave England in a good position. But what did Australia do? They batted doggedly for four hours to make sure that they had that pink ball in their hands as the dust came in and the lights came on and Mitchell Stark and and his teammates got six top order wickets. So it's recognizing those moments and being able to, and having the skill and the ability to be able to make the most of them is the thing that England have missed in this series.

Do you think if England had been in that same situation as Australians they would have recognized that same moment? Are you saying that? No, no. But how, but hang on but why not like you recognize it in the commentary box. Probably half the barmy army were thinking it, surely. I mean, that's, that's common sense, isn't it?

Yes, it is. But I think the, the way that this England team is set up is to play positively. So England would have been looking at runs in that situation as opposed to. To time. Whereas time was the important currency then because the disparity between the first two sessions with the ball in your hand when the sun is out versus the last one where the lights are on and it's pitch black. It's so different. It's so obvious when you want to be bowling. Mitchell star got 77 runs off about 180 balls. Wasn't it something like that? And made sure that he had that pink ball in his hands under lights. And that was one of the important passages of the game.

Again, I mean, Glenn McGrath says something similar on TMS ran, which was. He thought that it was the Joffre Archer, Joe Root partnership on the final sort of 45 minutes, an hour of the opening on the first day was also, you know, I mean, they were slogging it, for want of a better word, but they didn't get out. And therefore. But his point was, you know, that was a prime situation to get Australia in for 45 minutes.

Yeah, 100%. It was the timing. It's interesting. I actually was speaking to Chris Rogers who is the coach of Victoria, and they had just played a day night shield match and they said the same thing had happened. The timing of when you need to be in batting and then almost out. So you're bowling in the best parts. My issue with England at the minute, and it's something that Steve Smith says quite often, Australia play what's in front of. They don't have a set standard of play. They will work out as they go. And that comes from having a team that has problem solvers in it. As a coach, when I set up my team, I need to look down the list and go, okay, who's my problem solvers? If we're in any sort of trouble, who's going to fix it for me? And especially in T20, you have quite a few of them. You don't need that many. Sorry. Because it's so. But in Test cricket, nearly everyone needs to be a problem solver. And at the moment, England have Ben Stokes and Joe Root with the bat. They're the only problem solvers you've got. The rest just go and play the same way. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. In the past, on the bowling side of things, Jimmy Anderson would be the problem solver or Stuart Broad. Now, you don't have that experience and you've got really good attack. Don't get me wrong, I love the English attack, but none of them are really problem solvers and can work it out and that's causing massive issues. And that's like Ben said, the skill's 100% there. But if you don't have guys who can fix the problems, then you're in trouble.

So on the subject of problem solvers, then Esha and this isn't with the attack, this is on the batting side of things. Stuart Broad said on day one. And this is about Harry Brooke and the only reason I'm bringing Harry Brook in here. I mean, you can pick different batters at different times. James Coney, but Harry Brooks the vice captain. So that's why I'll read this out. And Stuart Broad said a look at his last three test matches. India at the oval, the game was won. He got a brilliant 100. He chipped one to mid off and England ended up losing that Test match by 6 runs. He played beautifully at Perth in the first innings. Innings 2 Australia get him back in the game. He played a loose drive and he's out. And a similar thing happens this afternoon.

So.

So is he recognising the game scenario? Because that is such a crucial thing about Test match cricket. Is he aware of what's happening at that time in the Test match?

I find Harry Brook a difficult one because he is such an enigma and he has already shown us some incredible things in Test cricket. You know, his strike rate is incredible. You know, the way he plays and the way he can put pressure on the opposition bowlers. You don't want to lose that. So the messaging with him is so tricky. I get your point that he's a vice captain. He needs to show a bit more leadership in those moments and you just hope that he will find that. But you also don't want to lose his ability to really take the game on as well because he is one of the best at doing that. And I look at that top seven and I think it's just that balance. Speaking to David Warner and he thinks thinks that you probably need just one more route like player in that top seven, someone who can go up and down through the gears. You know, you look at Duckett and Crawley, they're both very attacking cricketers. I actually thought that Crawley played really well in the first innings. He was really disciplined and he looks really solid and comfortable and balanced out there. And I think that would have given him a lot of confidence. But, you know, Ollie Pope hasn't quite, quite been the person that, that England need him to be in terms of being able to go up and then come down again and recognize the situations that there's been, there's been moments, but it hasn't quite, you know, he hasn't gone on to make a big one. And, and that's what you need from, from your top four, your top five. And then you've got Ben Stokes coming in to, to fix, fix everything up once things go wrong, which I wouldn't move him from that position. Harry Brooke is, is. Was the difficult one for me because I don't know what kind of messaging you have to go with for him. I mean, he's such a cricket badger. He loves the game. He obviously wants to do well for his team, that you just figure that at some point the penny will drop, but it's, it's just a question of when.

Stephen, you look at the moments in the game, and on day one, England had laid a relatively decent platform. It was a very hot day. Mitchell Stark comes into the attack. Harry Brook is, is. Is batting. He's on. Let me just check my scorecard. 31. And he, and he has an opportunity there to manage the situation. So the lights are coming on. The sun's setting. It's becoming the tricky time to bat, but you're in. And your best chance of negotiating that situation is when you are in as a batter and as a partnership and hit the first ball he faces from Mitchell Stark. As the lights are coming on, he has a big flashing driver, edges it to second slip and he's out. And he exposes the mid lord. Ben Stokes has to come in, who has a poor record against Mitchell Stark. So it's recognizing those moments that, that you want Harry Brook to do better. Because Isha's right. The guy is probably the best young batter that we've ever seen pull on an England shirt. And his ability to change games in a single moment, moment is, Is like no other player that I've seen for England before, but it's just recognizing those moments. It sounded like a broken record, but Australia have done it brilliantly and that's why they're two up.

But, but on Isha's point, Stephen as well, about, you know, maybe another bastard to go up and down through the gears, they don't. They don't have that with them, do they? And, and that hasn't been the car. That hasn't been the kind of player you could argue that has been encouraged. Encouraged.

I actually think Will Jack looked really good in, in the partnership with Ben Stokes. I mean we know that he can go big. He's, he's got an unbelievable strike crate and limited overs cricket. But he actually played the situation brilliantly. He, he stayed with Ben. He looked comfortable against a short ball. He just looked like top order batter.

So would you put him, would you put him at, would you put him at 3?

I'll be controversial for you.

Go on then Ryan.

Here you go. Will Jacks can't play as the spinner in Al. You cannot go to Adelaide and not play a frontline spinner. And you've groomed a guy for three years so Bashir has to play in Adelaide. No matter what you've done, you have set your bet up that this is the kid who's going to win you games of cricket in Australia. So he has to play. So therefore where does Will Jax fit in? You want him in the team. I agree with Isha. He looked magnificent so he might have to be one of your bats. And Bashir comes in as a bowl. Unless you're going to play two spinners which, and they both can play. But that's the sticking point for me is that somehow you have to get Bashir back in your team because he's the guy that was supposed to be your spinner in, in Australia and he has, you have to play. And Nathan Lyon's going to play. He's going to bowl about 70 overs in Adelaide and he's going to take wickets. And that day three, day four, day five in Adelaide if it gets there, it rags.

I thought there might be that little dig there. I thought when you were going through the days you might, you know, how would, how, how would you line England up then for Adelaide?

Stephen, you'd consider making changes? I think that they'll stick with Jax as the spinner because I think Bashir Lilac Hill was out bowled by Jax in the first warm up game. And then also by all account in the England Lions game that's been going on against Australia 8 where England Lions have had a tough time of it. I think they got after him there as well. So I don't know if they'll play Bashir which again is when you look at the amount of time and that's been invested in Bashir and the opportunity and then to not play him here because of his, his high release point and, and the advantage that he could have and as a young player like you, I look at him as a 21 year old and I've been there on an Ashes tour where I've been there for all five tests and not played. So you hope that they manage that situation somehow? Yeah, I think they'll consider maybe dropping Ollie Pope. I don't know whether Ben Stokes, his frustration was aimed at him or whether it was more general. But yeah, there's certainly an argument for Will Jax going up to number three but I think he'll stay at number eight.

So they bring Bethel in at three.

I don't think they will.

I'd be surprised.

I think they will stick with Ollie Pope. You know that this team have got them into a hole and they're going to ask this team to get them out of it. Ollie Pope in the first test match he got up some start and it's just a question of, I think this might be his last opportunity at Adelaide and if he doesn't, if he doesn't get runs there then, then they will probably look at a different option.

So you keep Jax at 8, do you Finney? And then, and then what, what do you do with your pace attack?

Well, I, I think it's quite telling the way that Ben Stokes wanted men in his team and not weak men. As a bowler you have to be willing to, to charge in all day and even though Brighton class didn't have a great game skills wise with the ball, he continued to charge in. But I think Ben Stokes really, really likes that. I'm sure Ryan can say from his perspective as Durham coach Brighton Kass is someone who will leave nothing out there on the field and I think Ben Stokes likes him as one of his seam options. Is that fair, Ryan?

Yeah, 100%. He's, you know, he's a massive fan. In fact Brydon probably wouldn't be where he is without Ben and, and he's given it all and he'll continue to. And again now I am sounding like a Durham coach but that's why I think Matthew Potts starts to come into the equation as well because you know he's going to give 100%. I love Josh Tongue as well. So I think those quicks that you've used in the first test, two tests, I think you're going to have to start rotating those and it's whether you go for the, you know, the lion hearted Matthew Potts or the Josh Tung who's been incredible in his short career so far, far and taking out who I'M leaving out. I'm leaving out either Atkinson or Joffre. There you go. I know Mark woods is struggling, but the facts are it's a five test series. I know it's you. You need to win this game so you'll feel like you want to play Joffre, but I just don't think you can play the same three fast bowlers. I think they're starting to run out of puff.

You're looking thoughtful, even Alicia. Not that you haven't for the rest of the show, obviously, but looking particularly deep in thought there.

Yeah, I think there's enough time between test matches to go with Joffre again. I just think that last phase and Smith getting stuck into him. I would want to see how he bowls in that next test match again.

I don't know what I would do is my honest and truthful answer.

Don't I. I think that. Look, is there anyone outside of this touring party that I would have picked that could have strengthened it? I don't think so. I think we've got the best players there to be able to. To be able to make the most of or to be able to try and win this Ashes series. But they. They have to make a gut call. But on the day, what the pitch suits. Would Matt Potts have played or bowled better in the. In the manner of trying to hit those cracks and being consistent on those cracks at Bridge Brisbane rather than one of the old other bowlers? Yeah, he probably would because he bowls that naturally. Full of length. So without looking at the pitch. Chappers. I'm not giving you a team, I'm afraid.

Okay. Well, I mean, that's, that's, that's actually very sensible. Very sensible. But. But very dull for the show. But.

And for Australia, Ryan, presumably Cummins and Lyon come in.

Yeah.

And. And that. Then you leave out what, Doggart and nisa.

Yeah.

Which is. Which is harsh on NISA in particular.

100%. But Australia are very clear. That's horses for courses. And Nisa has been an absolute GABA specialist. The other one, of course everyone's going to talk about Usman Khawaja, you know, is he coming back? I'll be honest. I think Australia have gone past him. You know, this new pair look exciting. If they get going, they score fast, which is something. Something we've lacked since David Warner. And no disrespect to Kwaja, I think he's been an amazing player. But mate, the guy's 38 and I think it's, you know, time that Australia need. I love that Josh Inglis is in the team and if they need an extra bowler, they can always swap him for Webster to give you an extra layer of a guy who bowls, spin and, you know, medium pace bowling. So, yeah, Australia got options. The scary thing is, and again, I don't want to be doom and gloom because I do want England to play. Play well, you're two nil down and Australia's best ever. Well, best ever spinner hasn't really bowled a ball yet and the captain hasn't played a game yet, so good luck.

Yeah. And at that precise moment Stephen left the position, he was broadcasting.

My laptop's on 4%.

Oh, right. You've got to get a charger.

Right.

I thought. I thought you just walked off in disgust at the end. At the end of that.

I mean, they're not quite.

I mean that they are only going to get stronger, aren't they? I mean, that's the thing with Cummins and Line coming in.

I mean, for the sake of England, you. You hope that they don't. But I. I love watching Pat Cummins bowl. You know, he is just a machine. His ability to be able to hammer away at good pace, he finds movement. He never goes away. He's a brilliant leader. Yeah. For the. For the sake of the series and being able to watch the best against the best, it's. It's going to be good to have them back. But not for England.

I wonder if they'll reconsider it, though. You know, the two nil up in the series, the last thing you want is Pat Cummins coming back too quickly and not being able to back up. Days and days of bowling and then all of a sudden you lose him. For the last two test matches, That's. That's the position I don't want to be in. So I think it'll be a case of. Let's just see how he's going over the next week. I know he's. He's already kind of said himself that he will play, but could be a rich risk.

Ryan, quickly.

Yeah, I hear what he's just saying, but I think they were careful with him in the gabba and that's why he didn't play up there, because they won the first Test and now that they're two nil up, I think he's ready to go.

All right, great. Thank you very much, Ryan. Isha, Stephen. That's it. The third test starts in Adelaide at half 11 next Tuesday night. Every ball live with the TMS team on Sports Extra along with plenty of TMS podcasts on BBC sound throughout the tour.

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