World Cup semis 'at the very least' & Woakes retires

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You're listening to the TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

Hello there, I'm Steve Crossman. Welcome to 5 live cricket loads to go at on the eve of the 2025 Women's World cup in India, where head coach Charlotte Edwards and captain Nat Siver Brunt will lead England in a major tournament for the first. First time gonna hear from Charlotte Edwards. We'll also hear from former captain Heather Knight, who's back in the England squad after missing so much of the summer through injury. We will also talk Chris Woakes on the day he retired from international cricket. We will discuss it all with England Ashes winner Stephen Finn, with World cup winner Danny Hazell and with our chief cricket reporter, Stefan Chemelt. Good evening, everybody.

Hi, Steve.

Hello.

Hello.

How are we all doing?

Danny? Stephen, you all right?

Good, thank you.

Excellent.

Complaint?

Well, you can if you want, Stephen. We've got 56 minutes. It's up to you.

It's not in my nature to complain, Steve.

Oh, I thought it was Stephen Finn. It must be somebody else who we've.

Got on the show.

Right, Danny, World cup eve, what's going down at this point? What's going through your mind? What are the players doing?

Yeah, I think you're just buzzing to get going, aren't you?

Really?

I think. I think they've been out there for a couple of weeks now via Abu Dhabi, so I think they'll be chopping at the bit to get the World cup moving.

And are you, do you think a relaxed state of mind at the moment? Is that where they will be or is it going to be difficult to sleep? What are they going to be doing?

I think you're as relaxed as you can be, but the end of the day, it's still a. Still a World cup and I think it's, you know, how far or how much change has been over the last year. I think it's. Lot of eyes on England this year and, yeah, we're looking forward to getting going. But imagine a few nerves as well.

I. I can't imagine that's how you felt, Stephen, to be Honest, I think. I think you'll have slept like a rock.

Did you see how our World cup went in 2015? That was. That was nightmare sort of stuff. They weren't good night's sleep before those games. But look, it's exciting, isn't it? And I think actually the biggest thing, when you're on the eve of a World cup and you have all that anticipation of how things might go, you think you've prepared well, but you don't know until you get in that first game and in those first tricky moments. So there'll be excitement, there'll be a degree of trepidation, because I think the team is in transition, the England women's team is in transition and it's a great opportunity for them to go out there and lay a marker down early on in the World Cup.

I know we're going to talk a lot about England and how they might go as well, but I think the really interesting thing is how this World cup is received in India. Twelve years ago, the tournament was in India then and it was only held in Mumbai and Danny played in that. And it was a shambles. It was barely promoted, no one in the grounds. Pakistan was staying on the other side of the country for security reasons. Since then, we've seen the women's cricket take off in India with the wpl. And yes, there is still a slightly shambolic element to this tournament because games have been moved at the last minute, 10 tickets have only gone on sale at the last minute. But it should make a much bigger impact in India, particularly if India do well.

Different world, Danny.

12, 12 years ago. That sounds ridiculous. Yeah, it is. And I think, you know, they've obviously had the. Starting to have a big impact from the wpl and you're starting to see, you know, some of the Indian players come through that system and it's, you know, I imagine they are kind of up there as one of the favors to win this India, and I'm sure they'll be getting a lot of lot more local support than they did back 12 years ago. So a huge opportunity for India itself, for their country and for how they. How they want to their women's cricket be perceived. But a huge opportunity for them to lay a marker. Obviously them in Australia, probably arguably your two favorites, so a chance now for them to, you know, get their hands on a World cup in the home, home country.

Stephen, how far down the list are you going to find England then in the list of favourites?

I think they're probably third favourite still. I think on their day they can definitely challenge those two teams at the top. They've just beaten Australia, haven't they, in the, in one of the warm up games. So yeah, absolutely. By no means are we ruling England out, but just looking at the way that the, the teams have played so far, it certainly does feel like Australia with their history and the class of player that they have and the experience they have at the, at the crucial end of tournaments is going to be crucial. And then India as well. That home support is really going to be something and, and yeah, build on the success of the WPL which probably leaves England down in third place.

What was the home support like when you were last there then, Danny?

I think it was starting to build. I think, you know, towards the end of games you get a lot more people coming in. I was involved in actually the first, I think exhibition game that was before the WPL and that was probably one of the bigger crowds in India I'd been involved with. So I think that was probably the start of when it was coming. I think now they get some really good crowds for the wpl so hopefully they can encourage them people to come along and especially if they start winning. I think with India get themselves on a roll in that competition then you'll see thousands of people starting to flock into them stadiums.

Steph, you have correctly predicted that a lot of our discussion is going to be around England and how they might go. So do you want to give us a bit of the story so far under Charlotte Edwards because that will tell us a lot about expectation before we hear from her. Yeah.

And obviously there was a new leadership team that came in after such an awful winter last year. T20 World cup and the Ashes new coach in Charlotte Edwards, new captain in Nat Siva Brunt expectedly beat the West Indies in their first series in charge and then came second against India, which are results that we would have expected. I think women's cricket in general in England is actually in a really interesting spot. And if you think going back to 2017 when there was a World cup win on home soil, has that really been capitalised on, maybe in the way that the lionesses have captured the imagination or maybe the red roses will want to over the next couple of years. There's a T20 World cup in England next summer and that's going to be held at big grounds that the ECB need to sell out and they will have a big job on their hands. If fans think England are a bit rubbish because they haven't just had a good 50 over World Cup. So there is more at play at the moment rather than just England winning games of cricket. Now there is a future to think of too.

That, that's a lot to have on your shoulders given Danny. They've got this tournament which is happening right now or about to.

I think as a player that's probably something you can't be thinking about too much in the moment. Yes, it's, yes, it's part of the bigger picture but I think you can, you know, you can look after what's right in front of you and it's their job to go out and perform their job to put themselves in positions to win games of cricket. And if they do that, I think, you know, they're very skillful side. They don't, they had. Didn't see the best of them v India this summer but they're, they're a very skillful side with, with some really, you know, experienced, talented cricketers like they were missing obviously Heather Knight during the summer and she's a huge miss for them. So with her coming back in into the World Cup I think she's going to play a real big role. Just, just a little bit of that stability around bit of an older head, bit of a kind of been there, done that. Obviously, you know, World cup winning captain as well. So I think that that kind of will give them that little bit of oomph. And sometimes in World Cups it's about getting yourself on a roll. If you can get yourself on a roll and winning becomes a habit, then once you get towards the back end of the comp, anything can happen with obviously very talented, talented group.

Is it Steven, sort of the start of chapter two, if you like, for Charlotte Edwards in England?

Well, it certainly feels that way, doesn't it? I felt as though she was definitely the right person to take the job on. I think her legacy with the women's team is something that gives her the authority to be able to rule that dressing room and command the respect of the players, which I think the team probably needed at the beginning of this cycle. And yes, she'll be really excited about coming into it now. I think with that history and having stepped outside of it into franchise cricket and learned about players around the world, learned about conditions as a coach, honed her style with that to then come back after a short break away from the England team into the fold. I think it gives her a fresh set of eyes on it as well. So I'm really excited about what she can do across her lifetime as England women's coach. Clearly this is one of the first major assignments for her and it's going to be interesting to see how she goes. She made some ruthless calls already. Kate Cross hasn't got a contract and isn't in this team which I think under almost every other coach she probably would have been. So she's not frightened to make big calls and yeah she's, she has a fantastic opportunity here to take this team forward. Because, because it could only go up from the Ashes loss earlier this year with.

With Finney saying that it can only go up. I do think expectations are low and Charlotte Edwards, we're going to hear from her soon with her saying semi finals as an expectation. Well actually that is quite low from an England point of view. If you think this is an eight team tournament, each team plays seven games, you've only got to win four to get into the semi finals and England would expect to beat Bangladesh, Sri Lanka and Pakistan most days of the week. I do think expectations are quite low and that maybe the success of this England team under Edwards will be taken both in this comp competition and in what happens here next summer. What is interesting, and both Finney and Danny have mentioned it, is that Charlotte Edwards was the right person for the job. I think most people agreed with that, but she was appointed without process by Claire Connor and England put the Rooney Rule to one side. So if this doesn't go well, both either, particularly next summer, but things go really badly at this World cup, then maybe the finger might start getting pointed somewhere else.

Let's hear from Charlotte Edwards. Leading England into a major competition for the first time with a very handy warm up win over Australia under their belts.

Pretty special for whether it's a warm up game or not, it's always nice to get one over on the Aussies. More pleasing with how we went about it. You know, we were under quite a bit of pressure throughout the game. They started quite well and Obviously we were 30 for 3 so we showed a lot of character within the game and you know, we obviously got over the line pretty easily in the end.

What does it do in terms of expectations within the group and your expectations? The fact you've beaten India and Australia now in Warbot matches might just send a few ripples around the tournament.

I think it just gives the group confidence and belief in, you know, what we're trying to do. You know, we've set up a game plan now and I think they're really starting to trust that game plan against, you know, two of the very best teams and I think that's what's most pleasing for me, that it's going to give us confidence and lots of belief going into this tournament. You know, we very much know that we're not the favorites for it, but what we do know is that we're working really, really hard and, and you know, like I said, having that belief now winning, you know, four games on the bounce in our prep games is, is, yeah, it's been really nice to watch and, and see many people perform within that, within those games, which is, is the most pleasing thing for me.

You say you're not the favorites. What are the expectations?

Well, I, I've definitely come here to win the tournament, of course, but you know, there other people that obviously, and rightly so, Australia are always going to go in favourites. I think India in their backyard. So yeah, we know where we sit but we also know, as I've said previously, that we can beat any team on our day and I think we've shown that over the last week. But we've got to do it consistently, we've got to do it under pressure in big events. But I think what we are doing is obviously believing in a game plan that we, we believe in these conditions we can do really well.

What is that game plan? And you mentioned the conditions because there are going to be elements of the unknown in terms of weather. There's a lot of talk that there could be rain affected matches, that sort of thing.

I think around our batting, you know, we've, we've got sort of set out a blueprint that, you know, we want people to get big scores, big partnerships, set up the game for the, for the last 20 overs. And I think the players are starting to understand batting time. Batting those middle overs is going to be critical in these conditions and against spin, we know we're going to come up against lots of spin. Knowing what our options are. I think that just that real clarity around what each individual's role is and I think now the players are really starting to believe in that and they've got the games to be able to bat long periods of time, which you have to in these conditions, but equally, you know, be aggressive when you need to be. And I think with the ball it's, it's, you know, having those options with our attack, I think, you know, we've come here with four seamers and four spinners. We know there could be varying different conditions as we've seen over the practice game. So really understanding when we control the game and, and when we attack and yeah And I feel the team are really starting to, to buy into that and believe in it because, you know, we've obviously played some good cricket over the last couple of weeks.

You've had success here in the Women's Premier League. What lessons can you pass on to the side?

I think 50 over cricket is very different to the T20, but I think, you know, obviously I know a lot about the conditions here. The due factor, I think that will play its part at some point. I'm absolutely certain of that. You know, they are quick scoring grounds. It's, it's quite. Can be short boundaries, so understanding, you know, what combinations you need to use. So there's lots of different things I'll pull on, I'm sure over the next next four weeks. And, you know, and I think just playing in front of these massive crowds, I'm sure we will do when we play against India and Sri Lanka. Yeah, and dealing with that. But the players have been excellent. It's been really nice to spend some time with the players. I think in my role you don't often get that kind of prolonged period of time, certainly in training environments. And we've had a brilliant time in Abu Dhabi. We've had a really good week in Bangalore and I feel, you know, we're in a really good place heading into, into Friday.

You know, your best team for that opening game?

Yeah, we're very close to it, I think, I think, yeah, I think we will have to look at the conditions in Gurati, but we're, we're pretty clear now what, what team we want to play. I think there's been some brilliant performances over the last couple of weeks. Yeah, very close.

You were captain here 12 years ago for a World Cup. The landscape has changed beyond recognition. Can you believe where the game is in terms of Indian women's cricket, the global game?

No, if I'm honest, you know, if I think 2013, I mean, even my first World cup in 97, and to think of the difference. I was sat on the bench the other day trying to explain to the players how different it is. And I don't think they honestly believe me. I'm just enormously proud of where women's cricket's at. I've spoken to the players about that journey we've been on from 97 to now. And we've had a few players, sort of girls as well, around that journey from 73 to obviously now to 2020. It's incredible. And, you know, they're so lucky. We're all so lucky to Be involved. And I think this is going to be quite some tournament and I think quite a moment for the women's game.

Just a very last question. Is there a bare minimum for England this tournament?

We want to be at the semi final knockout phases and then we know, you know, anything from happen from there but you know, I very much hope you will be. But we know it's going to be, we know it's going to be tough and we've got to play well.

Do you know Danny, the first thing that occurred to me listening to her there was, I wonder when the last time would have been that England went into a World cup thinking semi finals is a success. That, that's quite abnormal that, isn't it?

Yeah, but I think you know how, how she's, how she's worded that is as being, you know, that's a minimum. Like they, they are fully going there, expecting, not expecting, but believe that they can win the World Cup. So I think it's maybe, yeah, maybe played down slightly but the talk, you know, a talk around that group will be like we, we have the ability, we have the players, we just got to go out and perform. I think there's no doubt that they can do it. It's just now, it's now down to them. I say you, there might be a few bumps along the road during the group stages but you know, once you get into that back end, it's about players, players who have been there, players who have done it, experiences that they've got and like they say they can, they can beat anybody on that day.

And equally, Steven, there's two, there's two ways to look at that. People might think, oh, you know, why isn't she saying we're going to go and win the World cup and that's what we're here for. You know, if that's realism, that's completely acceptable as well.

Yeah, I think what you do now as a coach is that when you're speaking to the media you're reinforcing the message that you're telling your players within the dressing room. I think a lot of coaches use that, a lot of captains use that and I think the language inside the dressing room will be trying to take pressure off these guys and I think that they'll be trying to convey calmness throughout the dressing room. And yeah, in that she's saying we are underdogs, we feel as though we're the underdogs. And that's a really dangerous mindset in terms of a good dangerous mindset. For England to find because it will free them up. I think when England have played badly over the last few years, they've looked so tense in the moment. They've snatched at their chances to take catches, they've frozen with the bat in hand and I think Charlotte Edwards will, will understand that. And this is all just a method of taking pressure off those players so that they can, can go and perform as they have done in these two warm up games because they've, they've hammered India, they've hammered Australia, that, that should give them real confidence going into this World Cup.

And also Charlotte Edwards says that. But Daniel know no one likes winning more than Charlotte Edwards.

No, definitely not. She is.

You sat up in your chair then?

Yeah, I did, I did, yeah. So when you captain speaks, you gotta stand up, haven't you? Yeah, she's, she's a born winner. Right. There'll be no doubt in, in her mind that they're there to, they are there to win that competition. And yes, I think, you know, Vinnie's right, they're just trying to take a little bit of pressure off the dressing room. But deep down all them players know how good they are. Lottie knows how good they are. And if when they get in like in them small pressured moments, are you the one, are you the player that's going to step forward and, and take them over the line? So I think yeah, that's, that's just taking a little bit of pressure off but you know, they do have the ability to do it.

Gotta say, Danny, that the way that you reacted there, I feel like says a lot about just what she might be able to achieve via presence alone before we even talk about her as a coach, you know.

Yeah. And that's, you know, that's how big a bigger character, bigger person she is in the women's game. She quite rightly will command a dressing room as a, as a player and you know, as a coach now who's been, you know, hugely successful in, in domestic cricket, you know, not just in England. So as a, you know, as a coach, he's probably got one foot on the ladder already. The players already, you know, everybody's nice and quiet and listening to what's going on. But again also somebody that's, you know, he's a people person and will be trying to connect with the players very individually but with a burning fire in the background of wanting to win games of cricket for England.

I think the other thing, Steve as well, if you remember the criticism that was levelled at England last winter, when it went so badly wrong in the T20 World cup and the Ashes, was the mistakes, was a bit of attitude? Was preparation correct? Were the things they were doing between games the right things to be doing to win a World cup or win the Ashes? There'll be none of that with Charlotte Edwards. And England might make mistakes and they might have an off day. Charlotte Edwards can't go out there bat bowling field for the players. But what she can do is make sure that everything else is right. And that's what you expect from a.

Character and a coach like Charlotte Edwards and Steven. Going beyond that, there are other aspects. For example, she won the WPL with the Mumbai Indians twice. So what impact does that have? I read her talking about, she said, I understand the due factor. What on earth is the due factor?

Well, how long have you got?

It's 32 minutes.

Yeah, okay. Yeah, I can make it last that long. No, effectively. In the subcontinent in particular, when the temperature drops and the nighttime sets in and the floodlights come on, the first half of the game will be played in the daylight where the pitch might be grippy, the outfield will be completely dry. But then the second half of the game is played under floodlights when it's dark and it's a little bit cooler. And at that stage of the evening, dew does form on the ground. So little water droplets on the grass, when the ball goes across the grass, it gets wet. It becomes a lot harder to grip for a bowler to be able to execute your skills, whether that's slower balls, yorkers, whatever skills you might require as a white ball bowler. And then also sometimes in those conditions, it makes it skip onto the bat a lot better in the second half of the game and it becomes easier to time and pitches that might be a bit stoppy and spinny in the first half of the game can completely change under the conditions of due. So it is a big factor. We've seen world Cups before decided pretty much on who wins the toss. I hope this isn't one of those cases, but it's good that we've got a coach that understands that.

Yeah, look, I assume players will understand that perfectly well anyway, Danny. But nonetheless, to have a coach who's won the WPL twice is surely that significant. Surely that's a big tick.

Yeah. I think it's also just being out there and understanding the culture and understanding, you know, what, what, what it's like to play in India. You know, it's, it's a cricket crazy nation. There's obviously a lot, lot More eyes that are on you constantly, you know, around the hotel, walking from the hotel to the bus, there's just people everywhere. The bus is going down the road and there's just. You turn up with the ground and to practice and there's still, you know, hundreds of people around. So I think it's just putting kind of quieting down and all that stuff as well and just enjoying the moment. But you know, when it comes down to, to go time, I'm sure they'll be fired up and ready to go.

Danny, have you noticed anything she spoke a lot about the game plan. We've got a game plan. The players know the game plan from these two warm up games. Have you spotted anything that might be different that she sprung upon us?

Not so much, but I think just being around the domestic game. I remember I was down in Beckenham and we played against Surrey and I bumped into Lottie and it was just chatting to her quite generally around the game. And you know, puts a lot of emphasis on England players playing domestic cricket. So I actually think that's been, been a huge impact as well. Then players coming back and an understanding sometimes how, how to build linens. I think we got to the point before that where and maybe they didn't know how to bat 50 overs like just understanding that batsmanship and I think she puts a lot of emphasis on people making smart decisions in the right moment but obviously still taking a, a positive approach to things. But end of the, end of the day it's about winning games of cricket and it's about how you get over the line and if that takes somebody to, you know, bat a little bit smarter through the middle, take a bit of time to kind of get themselves into them being able to propel towards the back end. I think she just, she's put a lot more emphasis on game smart and how players go about the game. The game that's right in front of them in that moment.

Danny, there was a couple of things in the warm up game that where I wondered if England, I don't know if they looked stronger but it looked like there may just been a slight tweak. One of the advantages of course is if Natsiva Brunt can bowl because she hasn't been bowling since the Ashes. So that maybe means that England can play an extra batter because there's been times in one day as when Sophie Eccleston's been batting at number seven and that's looked a little bit too high. So maybe if they can get a Danny Wyatt Hodgin at number seven. Bowling options with Nat Siva, MLM and maybe Alice Capsi in the top seven. And then also if they only play one out and out seamer, are they going to be opening the bowling with spin? Might Lindsay Smith be opening the bowling? Is that an option?

Yeah, I think we saw a little bit of that the other day, didn't we? Lindsay Smith opened the ball and it's, it's not something that she hasn't done before. I think there was kind of, I think we went for a bit of a stage where, you know, Lindsay Smith and Sophie Eccleston didn't play in the same side. And I think they're very different cricketers, they're very different ballers. And I think if that's, that's a way that England want to go, having that bowling is massive. And if you can pick up, pick up some overs from an MLM or an Alice Capsi that can, you know, England have obviously gone with the four spinners. That was, you know, maybe when the squad came out, that was one question mark that people had. But if that's the route and you're going to go down, then I think the role that Natsuva plays with the ball and whether they can, you know, hopefully she's fully fit to bowl for the entire comp. But that's obviously another question with somebody who hasn't, you know, hasn't bowled for quite a while, really.

Let's, let's talk about the quicks then, shall we? Because the ones that we know which will be able to bowl at the minute. Lauren Filer, Lauren Bell. And you've just been talking about, about Nat Siva Brunt and seeing what happens with her. Danny, you, you coach Lauren Filer at Durham and I find her fascinating, especially because, side note, and I'm sure it's not as important to her as trying to win this World Cup. She's trying at the moment to become the first female bowler in a women's international to bowl 80 miles an hour. And she is not far away.

Yes, she's, she's an exciting talent and she, she's the one, you know, there's. The women's game is, is getting quicker, but I think that top end, there's still probably maybe three or four that can genuinely hit, you know, them sorts of 75 to 78 mile an hour consistently. So, yeah, she's a, she's a huge asset and I think used in the right moments of the game, I think she could be, you know, quite a big impact bowler. I Think she obviously been involved with Durban, hasn't played too much in our, in our first year, but I was involved obviously with her in the hundred and she was used quite a lot as that impact board in the middle. A bit more pierced look to hit the wicket. And that might be something in India that, you know, if you, in the second half and the ball's skidding on nicely, she's probably going to be quite a handful when that Jew's around. So, yeah, interesting how they would use her if she plays and you know how the balance of that side would.

Work I think as well, Stephen. I mean, I was lucky enough to be, to be there for her debut when she was bowling in the Women's Ash Test at Trent Bridge. So that's summer 2023 and straight away it was like, wow, she got Elise Perry out, didn't she, on 99. You know, she's box office, isn't she?

Yeah. And it's not just the fact she got her out on 99, it's how she got her out. You bounced her, made her look really uncomfortable and then followed it up with another uncomfortable ball that got her out. That was a real marker and that's, I think, the moment that people sat up and thought, wow, this is a really exciting talent we've got here. What I hope England do with her, as someone who's probably considered a strike bowler myself, is use her and give her the freedom to take wickets. Because wickets in the 50 over game are your currency as a bowler. And there's even more importance through those middle overs. If you've got the pace to be able to ruffle feathers and to disrupt the pace of the game, then, then that's the way that you need to be used. So, yeah, if she plays and if England do decide to have her in the balance of their team and not really load it with spinners, then I hope that she's given the freedom to just go out there and try and take wickets because, yeah, it's vitally important and that's what I think she's best at.

Just wondering, ticking off the Stephen bingo card here. He's been geeking out about Jew. Now he's just referred to himself as a strike bowler.

What would you refer to yourself as, Stefan?

A journalist and a bad wicket keeper. Thanks for acknowledging. The thing with the fast bowling though is it's the area of the team that's evolved the most recently with Arlot, with Lauren Bell and with Lauren Filer in the team. This is the first World Cup. England have Played without Catherine siver Brunt for 25 years. She has played in each of the last five. She's always had Anya Shrubsall there alongside her as well. And it was Anya Shrubsall who basically dragged England through three years ago in New Zealand. They were on the brink of going out. It was Shrubshole who scored the winning runs on a wet day in Auckland against New Zealand and was England's best bowler throughout the tournament as well as. And England are an old squad, actually. They've got nine players who are 27 or above. But it's those fast bowlers that duck under that age and are the ones that could be around for a little while. So when we're thinking the likes of Heather Knight, Danny Wyatt Hodge, Tammy Beaumont, Amy Jones, Nat Siva Brunt, they probably won't see another 50 over World Cup. It's actually the seamers that could be around for a little while.

Right just before them. Just before we hear from Heather Knight. Cause there's been a few ifs there from all three of you. As part of that Lauren Filer conversation, Charlotte Edwards said she was very close to knowing her best team. So can we maybe isolate Steph the areas where she might not be sure.

If we can speculate how many spinners they want. I think that would depend on the conditions. And there might just be a battle in the middle order for maybe the last batting spot. Maybe that's a Dunkley or a Wyatt Hodge. But I had nine names maybe inked in. I think it'd just be depending on the conditions. How many spinners do they need and who might that last batter be if they've got a specialist at number seven?

Heather Knight's name's not in ink, is it? It's in black. Marker, everything. Yeah. You can't get rid of it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Because even though she's been removed of the captaincy, she's still England's best, second best batter behind that silver brunt. The TMS podcast from BBC Radio 5 live.

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Right, let's hear from her then. Heather Knight, who's back in the England squad for the first time since she was replaced as captain by Nat Sivver Brunt. She missed much of the summer due to injury and nothing else. And Heather's been telling Stefan about that hamstring problem.

Yeah, it's good, yeah, it's getting there. I'm still kind of building up I guess to, to be ready to play with full fitness in the World cup but things are really on track. It was always going to be quite a sort of back end heavy rehab. It's one of those where try and let it heal as long as possible and then bam, quick go run back field etc. So yeah, it's going really well. Like it's, it's not been the most enjoyable couple of months. I'm not gonna lie. It's not quite a fun process to the rehab process. I'm not. Yeah, it's not the most enjoyable but kind of through the other side now hopefully which is, is really nice and obviously got that week in, in Abu Dhabi building up a couple of warm up games where we can be quite flexible so having to play some sort of role in, in that and then obviously a couple of warm up games before the World cup gets going. So yeah, a bit of cricket to, to hopefully get me where I need to be.

October 3rd, is that touch and go or is it still a bit too early to say?

No, it's, it's on track. Unless anything happens, I'm like not going to lie. I'm probably going to be a bit undercooked physically because of the amount of sort of stuff I've been able to do. I guess three months in the swimming pool doesn't quite cut the figures of a World cup. But yeah, I've been managed really well by the medical staff. I've got an amazing team of people that have been looking after me and yeah, planned this, this rehab pretty meticulously. Obviously went for the non surgical option to be ready for this World Cup. So yeah, things are on plan. I'm sort of not far off running at full speed now and back that in completely freely and pretty much fielding at full intensity. But yes, just me managing myself in that lead up to the, the World cup to make sure I'm really ready physically and cricket wise, how were those.

Few games in the ranks, you know, slotting back in, I mean it must have been less hard work. Phone wasn't going quite as often. Fewer conversations to have. How did you cope albeit for what actually turned out to be quite a short period of time?

Yeah, like I say it was quite brief but yeah, I was surprised how much extra time I had as sort of Twiddling my thumbs, wondering what to do myself. But yeah, I think I'll quite enjoy that sort of having extra time and like a little bit more time to, to play the guitar and, and just be out and about with, with the group a bit more I guess and not have that extra responsibility. And I guess like the, the challenge for me now because I've kind of been captain for so long and I always thought it got the best out of me as a, as a person, as a batter. So the challenge now for me is, is kind of how do I do that as a player? And I felt like I was starting to, to find that rhythm. Obviously played reasonably well in that series. Felt like I was in really good nick. But yes, it's obviously was always going to be a bit strange when you do something for nine years and you sort of slide into a different role. But yeah, like I say, that injury, one small silver lining is I think it's helped me sort of move on a lot more and yeah, I'm quite excited to kind of slot back in and yeah, just be one of the players and, and see how I can make an impact in, in a different way. And I think one thing when you captain, you, you kind of, you have to be a bit diplomatic sometimes and maybe sort of not, not always be as honest as you want to be. So yeah, I can be a bit more honest now and a bit more vulnerable and hopefully other people are a bit more, more honest with you as well because I think obviously when you are captain, you're in charge of decisions around selection and things like that. There naturally is that sort of small distance or water, whatever it is between you and the group. So yeah, I'm looking forward to sliding back into that hopefully.

I'm just pausing here slightly, Steph, because it says here in front of me that Heather said something un broadcastable in the interview she did.

I can reveal that it is printable though.

Oh, is it?

You'll be able to read about it on the BBC Sport website.

Are there any stars to replace letters.

Or comes with a disclaimer does it. But she revealed, and Danny can tell us more about this, that she had an alter ego and a nickname when she first came in to the England team. And Heather Knight said, well, when I found out that I wasn't captain anymore, I knew for a little while and then I sent out a message to all the players to say watch out. My alter ego nickname that we can't say right now is back because apparently when she was a younger player she was a bit of a prankster around the dressing room. A bit like when Joe Root to the men's captaincy, he was a bit of a cheeky chappie and taking on a position of responsibility. Heather Knight had to tone that down a little bit. So maybe Danny could tell us what Heather Knight was like when she first came into the England team and if. If that character is back, what we could expect from her from now on?

Yeah, I think Heather Kit, I think I was in. In India and I think she got called up to the. To the trip in India and yeah, she was just, you know, young and bit of. A. Bit of a mess about or a bit of fun. So, yeah, it'd be really nice for her to. She'll enjoy being back in the ranks, actually. I think from a cricketing point of view, you probably, I'd argue, so you might going to see the best next couple of years out of her. Somebody who now can be a little bit freer off the field, enjoy what she does, and sometimes that just frees you up on the field even more. But equally, I think that there was times probably at the back end of the summer last year v India where, you know, India got hold of England and, you know, kind of got away with the games. I think, you know, Heather's going to be massive for Nat on the field, how they use Heather, like, she's still a very, very good captain of the game and how Nat uses her and I know they get on really well and how they. How they work together could be really good in them pressure moments. I think, you know, Heather was always somebody who was calm in their moments and got. He got England through when we needed to with bat and in the field. So I think she's going to be a, you know, a huge cog in the wheel of trying to get momentum heading towards the back end of the comp.

Yeah, there was a lightness to her in that interview, Steven.

I thought, yeah, I think it's. It's a massive job being England captain and the transition that the women's game has gone through under her stewardship as well, and the added scrutiny as she became later in her captaincy years. Yeah, there'll be something really liberating about just dropping back into the ranks. I'm looking forward to meeting this version of Heather Knight. I've only met the serious one before, so I'm very much looking forward to meeting her next summer. But look, I think that she is absolutely, without doubt, one of the crucial cogs, not only as a battery but as a confidant for Nat Siver Brunt who is tackling her first World cup as a captain. And Heather will be very careful I'd imagine not to be too overbearing, not offering advice all the time, but she'll be a shoulder to lean on certainly when there will be tricky moments throughout the tournament because it is such a long one.

Well I've just found out the nickname and all I can say is I'm really glad nobody said it on the radio and I'm amazed you've got away with it on the website. But if you want to find it, that's where you can go and find it. You can hear our England get on 10:15 Friday morning on BBC Sounds and 5 Sports Extra. First game against South Africa. Our team are there for it. First game of the tournament full stop is tomorrow 10 15, 5 sports extra. India vs Sri Lanka. Let's move on to England's men and a modern day great has called it a day.

England need one to win. Stark comes in Bowles to Oaks who steps away and slashes it for four. England of the 1 want to become.

A genuine all rounder and I feel like I'm going in the right the right direction to do that.

And the aboles it shortly pulls it away. Ms. Cuban is going out towards wide long arm. This could be it. First test hundred for Chris Wokes and it's a test hundred at Lords. Possibly ball then third wicket not played. Half an hour and Australia are in big trouble.

Heart of beauty from Chris Wilkes. Perfect length and offspring stump the top of which has been knocked back.

A five back for Chris Wakes. A five for he achieved half an hour ago. He's achieved now. Australia all out for 317. Listen to this as Chris Wopes appears. He has got an arm guard on his right forearm. He's got his left arm in a sling. Here he comes. What an entry. And Chris Wokes heroically and in some way scuttles to the non strikers end.

I don't think the streets will ever forget that moment at the end there for Chris Woakes. Let me just read you what he's been saying about his international retirement today. Playing for England was something I aspired to do since I was a kid dreaming in the back garden. I feel incredibly fortunate to have lived out those dreams. 62 tests call them the Brummy Botham. 192 wickets, scored over 2000 runs. Won the Ashes twice. 2019 World cup as well. T20 World cup in 2022. You know it's a heck of a legacy. And actually, Stephen Finn, before we say anything else, none of us get to choose really how we go out, but if you could choose, that was the way to do it for Chris Walks in a sling, wasn't it?

Yeah. I mean, you'd always like to know when you're going out so you can savor the moment maybe a bit more. But. But yeah, it's iconic, isn't it? And it will go down as one of the moments that people remember for a long, long time. And look, he's just. He was my first roommate for England, 19. So we go back a long way, me and Woke. See, he's a month older than me. I retired two years ago and he's been going strong. So look, he's a marvelous player and a marvelous person and I think that last moment of him walking out to the crease with his arm in a sling, I think encapsulates his attitude towards playing for England. And it was, whatever I can do, whenever I can do, I'll do it for my country because I love doing it so much. So, yeah, really sad to see him retire. I'm sad for him that he didn't get the swan song and be able to walk off knowing that it was his last game. But he's done so much to be proud of.

Finney's right in that it's not the way that Chris Wokes would have chosen to go out, but for a team man like Wokes, doing something like that was really, really fitting. And I think a lot of us at the oval on that day knew that it was probably going to be the last time that we saw Chris Wokes in an England shirt because once he'd got that injury, making the Ashes was going to be so, so difficult and. And then realistically, win, lose or draw in Australia, there was always going to be a really good chance that England would go in another direction come the home summer. His achievements probably weren't lauded in real time because he was an opening bowler in the era of James Anderson and Stuart Broad and he was an all rounder in the era of Ben Stokes. But what you've just reeled off there, one of only four men to have played in both World cup finals that England won, one of only six England men to have won both World Cups and won the Ashes. And More recently, in 2023, England were 2 nil down before Wokes and Wood came into that home Ashes. And Wokes ended up as man of the Series after only playing three Test matches. If England had lost that series, where might the whole basball project be right now? They owe a lot to Chris Woakes.

Do you know, Danny, the other thing that occurs to me is if we're talking about maybe he doesn't necessarily have the level of resonance that he deserves. Steph was just saying the era of Ben Stokes. The problem with being an England all rounder is there are legends in every era, aren't there? You know, there's a long list which includes both them, which includes Flintoff, which includes any other number of players. So if you are an all rounder, you are always going to be compared to these guys who have just set the bar to a ridiculous level.

Yeah, I think he's just fallen behind some exceptional cricketers, hasn't he? But I think anybody who's, anybody who's a true cricket fan would know the value of a Chris walks in your side. I think he's probably been one of the, you know, the person a captain would go to. Whoever they play, they're going to need somebody to bite, need somebody to bow. He's going to be the person that you look at and you know, that final Test match that he's obviously now been, his final Test match probably just epitomizes the person that he is. I know I don't know him personally, but I think you're just watching that game, it just showed. You could just see somebody who was beaming. I'm a team man and whatever you need me to do, I'm going to go out there and do it for you.

He's done it very Chris Woke's way as well, hasn't he? He's done it mid afternoon on a Monday, a couple of days after the Red Roses have won a World Cup. So just minimal fuss, which I think sums him up completely.

Villa had won as well, which he'd been, he'd have been pleased about. The other thing is him going out as important as he is to the England team and he'd take on, he'd taken on an important since Jimmy Anderson and Stuart Broad had moved on and he made his debut back in, in 2013. Since then, England played 150 Test matches. Woke's only played 62, just because the competition for pace bowling spots was so fierce against Finney and Ollie Robinson and Mark Wood and Matthew Potts. But then in the past two years, 18 months, he stepped up as that attack leader and he did go out as England's pace bowling spearhead. And when he got injured in that last Test at the oval, they really missed him.

So we're coming to the end, right? But we have arrived now, Stephen Finn, at the question I've been most looking forward to asking all night. Okay. Chris Walks is universally regarded as being the nicest man in cricket. So as someone who knows him so well, tell us about a time he's been nasty.

Oh, he's. That's a good question. I mean, the fact that I'm stumbling my words like this means that it's very hard for me to remember a time where he's been where he's been nasty. But I can tell you where he got his wizard nickname from. And so he's called Chris the Wizard Wokes. And we were playing darts on an Englander 19s tour in 2008 where we roomed together and you had to give yourselves a darts nickname. So I was Stephen the Shark Finn and he chose Chris. Chris. Chris the Wizard Wokes. And that nickname just stuck for him from then on. That's why everyone knows him as the wizard now. And he is an absolute hustler, actually, because you look at him, he's got a six pack, he's incredibly well groomed, he's got the crisp hair all the time, but he is a pub sports hustler. He's outstanding at snooker and outstanding at darts. So maybe the meanest Chris Woakes has ever been was when he hustled us out of money in Sri Lanka in 2008.

I can tell you that I've been let down by Chris Woakes.

Have you?

Yeah. His test match special debut. He was injured for the champions trophy in 2018 and he was commentating for TMS England semifinal. I think they lost to Pakistan in Cardiff. I went to check into my hotel the night before the game and the reception said, I'm really sorry, your room is no longer available.

I said, what's going on here?

What's happened? Oh, it's gone to a Mr. Woakes. I never ever got an apology from Chris Wilkes from taking my hotel room.

See, that's what I like to hear. You know, it's not all sweetness and light. Now we know the real Chris Wilkes. Guys. Feel free, any of you, to get involved in this because it is the last story of five live cricket tonight and it's a great one. A seismic result in the T20 series between Nepal and the West Indies. So the side, ranked 18th in the world, have taken a two nil lead over the 2016 world champions West Indies. There's only one match to play, so that's an unassailable lead this afternoon. Nepal won by 90 runs. They bowled the West Indies out for just 83. Let's speak to international commentator Andrew Leonard who was working on the match in Sharjah and joins us now. Andrew, what a story. That must have been a remarkable thing to watch.

Guys. Good evening. Yeah, great to be with you. Live from the UAE and still catching our breath here after. Well, Nepal have made history. Their first ever win of any kind over a full member nation a couple of days ago and they've doubled down on that, taking a two nil series lead in this first ever inaugural Unity cup here year between Nepal and the West Indies. It was a phenomenal performance. They completely outplayed the West Indies in all three departments, particularly with their fielding.

Must have been pretty emotional scenes at the end for them.

Yeah, there really was because for those following the news, obviously this month has been a month unlike any other with the Gen Z protests back in Nepal, but hopes of a brighter future now ahead. And indeed the captain Ro Paddle dedicated the victory two days ago to all the martyrs from those Gen Z protests. But then the performance tonight, just full of joy. Thousands of Nepal fans who, you know, really are their trademark. Cricket is such a passion there in the Himalayan nation and they completely outplayed the West Indies. It's the lowest ever total a full member have made against an associate. And yeah, Nepal's trajectory very much echoing that of Afghanistan and Ireland from probably about 10 years ago. They're coming up as one of the foremost associates in the game right now.

I am going to mention that the terrible form that West Indies have been in in a second. However, I don't want to take us too far away from Nepal too quickly because of the size of that story. So when they won the first match at that point, would you have said, well, there's every chance they're going to do it now or when that happened, did that feel like it could be a sort of a magical one off?

Well, I think for those who follow the associate game and know how good the leading associate sides are now, the likes of Scotland and the Netherlands, USA of course, with their brilliant Super 8 run last year at the T20 World cup, of course there's a connection to Nepal there. Head coach then was Stuart Law, he is now the head coach of Nepal. There's a growing sense of belief within the associates that the gap is narrowing, particularly to the lower ranked Test nations. And with the West Indies sending a younger side here, they still have the quality of the likes of Jason Holder and Akil Hussein. Who's captaining for the first time? Kyle Mears, Obed McCoy, Fabian Allen. Plenty of experienced internationals in there alongside some young CPL breakout stars. But I don't think even in their wildest dreams they would be thinking of a series whitewash potentially, which is what they could complete tomorrow night. And there's every chance maybe Nepal will feel as though they're going to be favorites. The conditions obviously here in Sharjah somewhat favor them. They've got a fantastic spin bowling attack, but their fielding is simply world class. The likes of Dipendra Singhairi and Kushal Bertel and Gulshan Ja, who took two of the best catches you will ever see tonight. They're an inspiration to watch and they really are one of the most joyous stories in sport.

Brilliant to have you on and obviously a great story to have witnessed. Andrew, thank you very much for talking to us.

A pleasure guys. Keep fighting a good fight and good to talk to you.

Top man Andrew Leonard there who is in Sharjah. And yes, Steph, this is a West Indies team who a couple of months ago were bowled out for 27 in a Test match. So bad to worse.

Yeah. It feels like we've talked about the decline of West Indies cricket a lot over the past few years and it's something that doesn't look like halting. And to bring it full circle back to the start of the night when we talk about the Women's World cup, the men three time championship, two time champions of the 50 overs World cup didn't qualify for the last men's 50 over World cup in 2023. This time the women were semi finalists three years ago in New Zealand. They're not there this time in India. There is a malaise across West Indies cricket that the whole cricketing world and cricket fans want to see reversed.

Thanks to Danny Finney and Stefan. That's it for this episode. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss one. Remember, you can hear every ball of every match of the Women's World cup on BBC. Sounds England begin their campaign on Friday against South Africa. As always, thank you so much for listening.

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