E#4: How to Get Into Ross with Admissions Director Lysa Wang

I will say a common mindset that we have with the majority of our community is that mindset of giving back. And this can be easily picked up on through talking to someone and through reading their application.

Right.

And so that's something that I would say definitely stands out and it's what we want and look for in our applicants is that ability to give back and to put the greater, I think, community in front of themselves, more so and have that awareness to, to be able to do foreign.

Hi everyone. Welcome back to MBA Golden Buzzer. Today I'm joined again by Lisa Wang from Michigan Ross to talk about something. Every applicant wants to know what Ross is really looking for. We're going to go deeper than the check the boxes kind of advice and talk more about how Ross defines fit, how you should tell your story and some of the most common but avoidable mistakes. So if you're interested in applying to Ross, this is the best episode for you. So, Lisa, thank you so much for joining me again today. Can you please tell us maybe just a little about you?

Sure. So, hi everyone, again, my name is Lisa Wang, like Ellen said. So I've been with Ross for almost five years now. I'm currently with the full time MBA admissions team. But actually prior to this role I also worked in the global initiatives office at Ross. And then prior to Ross, I actually lived and worked in Beijing, China for eight years, also doing higher ed recruiting for full time MBA programs. And so I've been in this space for quite some time now, over a decade. It's definitely something that I feel extremely passionate about and I still enjoy it every day.

Well, and if you guys haven't checked out our other episode with Lisa where she's talking about what makes Ross really unique, make sure you check that out. But for today, let's jump in talking about something that applicants think about all the time. And let's start with something applicants are really worried about and something that you think that maybe they should be worried about instead.

Yeah. So recently I will say I've gotten a lot more questions about the short term career goals and I do think it has to do with the economy that we're in right now, how tough it is to get a job. And so a lot of applicants are overly concerned that they will not be admitted if they put down something more niche like they want to go into venture capital or they want to go into private equity or they want to do, you know, something that's out of the norm of what traditional MBAs do like consulting tech and things like that. And I just want to reassure everyone we are not denying people based on their short term career goals.

Right.

The short term career goal, to be very honest, it changes a lot of students put that they want to go into consulting and then they find out what consulting actually is like and they end up switching. And so rather than focusing so much on creating a easy to recruit goal for your application, focus more on, you know, why does it make sense for you to get an mba and why does it make sense at the time of application for you to have whatever it is your short term career goal is? As long as that logic works and it, you know, makes sense, then there really isn't a problem with writing what you're truly passionate about, which is also what we want to know. And so definitely focus more on that. And then another thing I do want to mention is now that ChatGPT is so accessible to everyone, it's a great tool, I will say I use it myself to check my grammar and clarity at times, but I write it first.

Right.

And so I think, think these days as I'm reviewing applications and reading these essays, a lot of them sound similar. They don't sound as authentic as they used to be. And so I would say take more time and crafting your essays and only use ChatGPT after you feel like you have a final draft of your essay and then ask it to check for clarity and grammar. And so I think it'll be way better, way beneficial for you in your application if you are able to be more authentic in the essays. Yeah.

Oh yeah, absolutely. And if you're listening to this thinking, I can just put everything together Last minute because ChatGPT can do my essay in 45 seconds, we can tell we have read essays for, I mean, you've read essays for 10 plus years. You know what a good essay looks like. You're an expert. It's hard to fool an expert.

And even if you don't.

And what's something that you think makes someone feel like a Ross applicant? Some sort of maybe vibe or signal that you get that someone's going to thrive at Ross?

I think it's really hard to. There's really no mold for like the perfect Ross applicant.

Right.

And so all of our students are very unique in their own ways. However, I will say a common mindset that we have with the majority of our community is that mindset of giving back. And this can be easily picked up on through talking to someone and through reading their application.

Right.

Because it shows up in their volunteer section. Of their resume. It shows up in their essays when they talk about ways that they've, you know, supported other people in their community or ways that they've supported what they're passionate about. And so that's something that I would say definitely stands out. And it's what we want and look for in our applicants is that ability to give back and to put the greater, I think, community in front of themselves more so and have that awareness to. To be able to do that.

Awesome. And let's also flip the usual advice. What's something that you see in otherwise perfectly qualified candidates that will raise a red flag for you?

It's when they go overboard with the love and passion they have for Ross. I think it's great when you have done your research. That is what we look for. Yes. That you have actually done your research, but when we are receiving 10 page love letters to Ross or PowerPoint presentations, that is when I'm like, I think it's great that you did your research, but this is a little. This is a red flag now. Or constantly spamming you with like, you know, their passion for Ross.

Like, people have listened to this podcast, will know that I like to compare the MBA application process to dating a lot of times. And this is also another time I tell people, like, you want to be good and show interest, but you don't want to be a stalker. You don't want to be that person that's blowing up their phone and gets blocked. Don't do it.

You are absolutely right. That's a great analogy. Yes. It's like dating. You don't want to. You don't want to become that person.

Nope. It's kind of creepy. Not in the application process, but you know how to feel like it's a little too much. I don't feel comfortable anymore. So great advice. Yeah. And when people reapply to Ross, because I know that applications this year were up tremendously. So there are probably a couple people out there that are listening that are reapplicants. So when people reapplied at Ross and they're successful, what has changed? What do you see in a successful reapplicant that wasn't there before?

I mean, honestly, it's many, many components because there's usually at least one to two reasons why you were not accepted into the Michigan Ross mba. And so what we really look for is significant improvements to your application as a reapplicant. So example, because we don't provide any individualized feedback, you're going to have to do some Self reflection, right? Could you have had a stronger letter of recommendation? Could you have had a bit more work experience and maybe more impact at work? If you applied with a Statement of Academic Readiness, was that sufficient? And if not, could you think about retaking the GRE or the gmat?

Right.

To improve your chances and to show that you're ready for the quant regulars of the MBA program? And so we're looking for all components of that, depending on who the reapplication applicant is. And we'll take a look at their application from last year and actually compare it to their application from this year. So if your essays are all the same, nothing has changed other than that you just have another half year of work experience, probably will not be accepted again. And so it's definitely important to really take the time to reflect, get some mentors, friends, families to, you know, take a look at what you submitted the previous year and tell you what they think you're lacking and then really make improvements on that.

I know that something that's really unique about Ross is that you do have that option to submit the Statement of Academic Readiness and obtain a GMAT waiver. What are the type of people that are typically successful in obtaining that waiver and what are tips that you'd give to be more successful in obtaining that?

Yeah, so that's a great question and I just, just want to clarify that we actually do not have a waiver process. And so basically it's either you apply with a test score or you apply with a Statement of Academic Readiness. So we're not going to tell you whether we accept it or not. You'll just apply with a Statement of Academic Readiness. So we're looking for multiple points of data points where you can show us that you're ready for the quant rigorous of our program. So that can be having a CFA cpa, or it could also be that you have three plus years of progressive work experience in a analytical field or a finance related field. It could also be that you did your undergrad in finance or accounting or econ or you know, a quant related or have many quant related courses in your undergrad where you had A's and B's, where you did well in those classes. I will say MBA math certificates don't have too much of a weight in that process. So we're really looking for more. So of those other data points and some students also use the executive assessment if they take in that. So we also accept that as one data point in your Statement of Academic Readiness So make sure that you have multiple data points to share with us and that they are all sharing that you are able to handle the quant rigorous of the courses here. We're not looking to assess your language ability because sometimes students do put that in there. We're not looking to assess anything else outside of your ability to keep up in class.

And for people who come from non traditional backgrounds, maybe something more journalism and then they continue to work in media. How should they navigate that process with.

Non traditional MBAs unless they really have been in a full time work job for at least, you know, two, three years where it is very analytically heavy, it is hard for them to make a case for the statement of academic readiness. So usually if you know they are coming from journalism, they don't have any classes in their undergrad that's quant related and they don't have work experience related to that. We do recommend that they probably take the test.

Yeah, I had a client recently that we were working through that and I was like, listen, they need to see your quant skills.

Yeah. I mean unless they're coming from like a STEM background, it's probably easier. But yeah, if it's humanities and something like that, then definitely the test score is their best bet.

Yeah. Yeah. Applicants to Ross love to say that they're collaborative. And if you guys haven't listened to the other episode where we talk about how Ross views collaboration, you definitely should check that out. But how do you know when someone is actually collaborative and isn't just using it as a buzzword? What in their application actually makes you believe that that's true?

Again, it's actually seeing examples of them giving back to the community and volunteering their time for something greater than, you know, themselves.

Right.

And so being able to, to a community or to a cause that doesn't directly benefit them per se, but benefits other people. I think that's one of the biggest examples of being collaborative and being a good fit for Ross. And so it does take again a lot of self reflection, self awareness and their ability to own up to like their shortcomings or mistakes, to, to be able to be a good part of a team. And I think that's the case, you know, regardless of where, where you work, whether that's in business or in another, like in the medical field or you know, you're just a journalist being collaborative. I think those traits are the same across the board. And then maturity definitely is something that we evaluate during the interview process. Maturity, self awareness, the ability to self reflect and own up to mistakes. All of those are assessed. The emotional intelligence aspects of our applicants are assessed during the interview process. And so that's a very important part of the application.

And I think something that when we're talking with clients, they worry about is I haven't done a bunch of volunteer work. Maybe I should put my application off a couple years. But there are other ways to show giving back and contributing to others, right?

Yes, I mean, you're absolutely right. And it's actually the case with a lot of our international students too, where maybe growing up in their education system volunteering and within the community was not such a big aspect.

Right.

Especially for more of the academic focused countries, like the ones in Asia, for example, they're probably more so just like getting good grades and like, you know, moving up. And so that's definitely a understandable, but it doesn't have to necessarily just a couple years.

But there are other ways to show giving back and contributing to others, right?

Yes, I mean, you're absolutely right. And it's actually the case with a lot of our international students too, where maybe growing up in their education system, volunteering and within the community was not such a big aspect.

Right.

Especially for more of the academic focused countries, like the ones in Asia, for example, they're probably more so just like getting good grades and like, you know, moving up. And so that's definitely understandable. But. But it doesn't have to necessarily just be volunteering. It could also just be how you have impacted or supported those within your small network of family and friends and people that you've met at school or along the way in your life. And so all of those are great examples too, of how you're able to really, you know, care for others, be collaborative, be supportive, and show up in a good way.

Yeah. What is your best tip for someone who's preparing for the Ross interview?

Oh my gosh, prepare. Actually prepare. And yes, right now all of our interviews are conducted via Zoom. And don't treat this as anything less. Treat it as if you're going to this interview, as if it's in person. Show up beforehand, dress professionally, make sure that you actually have good Internet connection. Like, all of the basics that you would check off may be slightly different with the Internet access, but like, everything else should be the same as if you were going in person for this interview. And then again, just preparing.

Right.

You don't know what questions you'll be asked. All of our interviewers do have. They do have training and they do know which qualities we're Assessing for. And they do have a bank of questions, but you never know what other questions might come up during your conversation. So always prepare. And the one thing I always like to tell applicants is create a bank, like a list, right? Like open up a spreadsheet, Create a list of examples from, like your personal experiences, from your professional experiences and drop them in buckets.

Right.

For example, leadership. And then like resilience, you know, collaboration, cultural competency. And just drop them in like certain buckets. And then that way you already have these stories and they're already organized and you already are well versed. And then if it comes up, you can just automatically think back to, oh, well, I can share this one. So really it is just about preparing. And then again, just be genuine, be honest. Don't, don't make up examples. Obviously more than one tip. But overall, just really prepare for it. Yeah.

And in those interviews, how important is it to do research into Ross? Be able to talk about the classes you want to take, people that you've talked to, things like that?

Very important because these are conducted by our alums and will be conducted by current students as well moving forward. And so if you don't know much about Ross, they're not going to take that grade.

Right.

If you, you only know about map, like I think everyone knows about MAP now, right. They want to hear more than just, oh, map. They want to know which clubs do you want to be involved with. You know, have you been to campus? And if not, and it's understandable if you can't, right? Because it's not accessible for everyone to come to campus. But have you, like, you know, connected with student ambassadors, alumni ambassadors. So definitely doing your research into why Ross is extremely important throughout the whole entire application phase, but even more so during the interview.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. When people come to me and, you know, are asking for interview help and they say, well, I couldn't get a hold of anyone from Ross, like, that is not true. Ross is so open. They're so welcoming. You didn't email anyone, did you?

I've never heard of any applicants saying that they couldn't get a hold of any of our 400 student ambassadors or alumni ambassadors. I've never heard of that.

I don't believe you.

I don't know. I don't know about that.

Something else that people worry about is if they have one behavioral question that wasn't quite perfect, that, oh my gosh, that's the one thing that I'm not going to get in because it wasn't perfect. How worried should they be about not having one perfect interview question?

They should not kill themselves over one small mistake. None of ours are perfect.

Right.

Like, I make mistakes during my interviews at times too.

Right.

So I don't know. I don't know about that.

Something else that people worry about is if they have one behavioral question that wasn't quite perfect, that, oh my gosh, that's the one thing that I'm not going to get in because it wasn't perfect. How worried should they be about not having one perfect interview question?

They should not kill themselves over one small mistake. None of ours are perfect.

Right.

Like, I make mistakes during my interviews at times too.

Right.

So really, just because you made one mistake is not going to kill your entire application as long as you did well everywhere else. And again, we don't have weighted, I guess, scores for each component of the entire application. And so it's a holistic review process. So no one area or two areas are going to absolutely kill you. We're looking for multiple flags.

So let's get into the Fast Pass.

So really, just because you made one mistake is not going to kill your entire application as long as you did well everywhere else. And again, we don't have weighted, I guess, scores for each component of the entire application. And so it's a holistic review process, so no one area or two areas are going to absolutely kill you. We're looking for multiple flags.

Awesome. So let's get into the Fast Pass Insights part of our podcast where we're going to shoot you some rapid fire questions. So first one, what is a mistake you wish you could ban from all applications?

Don't call us by another school's name, I think.

Oh, gosh, no.

That is the silliest and the worst mistake you can make. Obviously, we all know that you're applying to at least five schools, right? And you should, you should definitely put your eggs in different baskets to set yourself up for success. But the least you can do is take a good look at which application you're filling out and put the correct school's name. And then in line with that, answer the actual essay question that we're actually asking you. You can tell I've been reading some applications lately.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. I'm a little frustrated. Yes.

You know, if we're asked Insights part of our podcast where we're going to shoot you some rapid fire questions. So first one, what is a mistake you wish you could ban from all applications?

Don't call us by another school's name. I Think. No, that is the silliest and the worst mistake you can make. Obviously, we all know that you're applying to at least five schools.

Right.

And you should. You should definitely put your in you to share examples from your personal experience. Don't give us an essay talking about your professional experience. It's just a flag for us that you didn't even take the time to read the prompts.

Right.

And then again, on top of that, if you're calling us by another school's name, we're like, well, is this just a generic essay that you just kind of tweaked using Chat GPT to fit our application? And so those are definitely things that I wish just could be banned overall so that we don't have to waste our time reading it.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You literally couldn't do the minimum amount of effort. Yes. You're done. Sorry.

So we're taking the time to read your essays and to review everything. It would be nice for you to take the time to put eggs in different baskets to set yourself up for success. But the least you can do is take a good look at which application you're filling out and put the correct school's name. And then in line with that, answer the actual essay question that we're asking you. You can tell I've been reading some applications lately.

Yeah.

Oh, my God. I'm a little frustrated. Yes. You know, if we're asked, at least avoid these mistakes.

Yeah. And what's a quality that you can spot in a great candidate in under 30 seconds?

I think it's tough to really get a feel on someone within the first 30 seconds, especially since now that we also have a lot of introverts that apply for mb, sometimes it takes more time to really get to know someone. So I don't think I can spot a great candidate. And, you know, under 30 seconds, but I. What I will say, though, is that it's definitely easy to tell who is genuinely interested in our program. And I can definitely tell that through just our conversation and through the genuine research they've done, the genuine connections they've made with our community, you to share examples from your personal experience. Don't give us an essay talking about your professional experience. It's just a flag for us that you didn't even take the time to read the prompts.

Right.

And then again, on top of that, if you're calling us by another school's name, we're like, well, is this just a generic essay that you just kind of tweaked using ChatGPT to fit our application. And so those. And then even through the application phase, too, you can just tell. You can just tell. Definitely not under 30 seconds, I would say.

And that's good for you guys. They're looking holistically, they're reading, they're getting to know you. You would want that answer to be yes that way. And what's one part of the application that's more important than people think?

They're all important. But I think one thing that gets downplayed or skipped a lot is not explaining why you're not using your direct supervisor as your letter of recommender. It is honestly such an easy thing. It just takes two words, you know, a sentence max for you to explain it. But when you don't, it leaves us wondering.

Right.

And you don't want us to wonder because then we start thinking, well, why is it because they had a bad, you know, working relationship? Did they do something like you. You start wondering all kinds of things, and you don't want us to do that. You want to give us a definitive answer. This is why I don't want to jeopardize my promotion opportunity or, you know, I've only worked with my supervisor for two months. Anything. It literally takes two seconds. Just explain it.

Yeah. Oh, that's. Yeah. And there's usually a perfectly good reason for it whenever, you know, it's one of those two, 99% of the time. Right.

But when you don't, we're like, but let's look at, you know, like, then you start.

Yeah.

Why?

Yeah, it's not good to leave that unanswered.

Yeah, you don't want to do that.

And what's one thing that you wish applicants would do before?

Definitely things that I wish just could be banned overall so that we don't have to waste our time reading it.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. You literally couldn't do the minimum amount of effort. Yes. You're done. Sorry.

So, like, we're taking the time. Time to read your essays and to review everything. It would be nice for you to take the time to at least avoid these mistakes.

Yeah. And what's a quality that you could before they start writing their essays?

As I shared previously, definitely read the prompts carefully and spot in a great.

Candidate in under 30 seconds.

I think it's tough to really get a feel on someone within the first 30 seconds, especially since now that we also have a lot of introverts that apply for MBAs. Right. Sometimes it takes more time to really get to know someone So I. I don't think I can spot. And then in addition to that, really be more reflective about all of the experiences, similar to kind of the interview tip that I provided. Right. Think through all of your personal experiences, your professional experiences, and then again, depending on the prompt that you're answering, pick the best one, the most impactful one for you to share. And so taking the time to actually prepare and reflect before actually sitting down to write will be really important.

Yeah, that's such a great tip. You. You have such a small amount of space to talk about yourself, a great.

Candidate, and, you know, under 30 seconds. But I. What I will say, though, is that it's definitely easy.

You can tell who's been strategic, who's been thoughtful, and you can tell who just put whatever they felt like putting.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what's your golden buzzer insight for future Ross applicants? Something that you hope they get out of the application process.

So I really hope that everyone can take the opportunity to just learn more of, to tell who is genuinely interested in our program. I can definitely tell that through just our conversation and through the genuine research they've done, the genuine connections they've made with our community, and then even through the application phase, too, you can just tell. You can just tell. Definitely not under 30 seconds, I would say.

And that's good for you guys. They're looking holistically, they're reading, they're getting to know you.

You would about themselves. Because, to be honest, the MBA application process is extremely reflective. I think they're able to really be able to see how far they've come in their own personal journey as a human. Right. And hopefully they will feel proud of themselves through this reflective process. So that's what I hope they take away.

And for our final round, if you could speak directly to every applicant on deadline day, what's the one thing you would want them to remember before they hit submit?

Yeah, I mean, what a. It's a tough process. And I know because I applied for an MBA myself.

Right.

Preparing for the exams, getting all of your materials together, sitting down to write the essays, interview everything. I would just say, say, look, you've already put your best foot forward. You've done all of the work, and now you can finally relax. And I know, I know you can't.

Want that answer to be yes that way. And what's one part of the application that's more important than people think?

They're all important. But I think one thing that gets downplayed or skipped a lot is not really relaxed But I want you to, I want you to finally be able to feel like who I've done it. Feel proud of yourself. Regardless what the results are, you've put your best foot forward. You've done the work explaining why you're not using your direct supervisor as your letter of recommender. It is honestly get to this point where you can actually click submit and now just take some time for self care and, you know, relax as much as you can.

Yeah, that's a great advice. Please submit a couple weeks early if you can.

Just such an easy thing. It just takes two words, you know, a sentence max for you to explain it. But when you have a week or.

Two between writing all the essays and all the craziness and the interviews just for, just for your own well being. Yes, if you can. Awesome, Lisa. Well, thank you so much. These have been such great insights.

You don't. It leaves us wondering.

Right.

And you don't want us to wonder because then we start thinking, well, I'm.

So happy to have you on the podcast and I'm sure everybody listening to has. Has really benefited a lot from, from your adv.

Thank you so much. This has been really, really fun. The questions you asked were very different. Is it because they had a bad, you know, working relationship? Did they do something like you, you start. And so I really enjoyed it as well. Good.

Well, thank you so much and good luck with this upcoming admission season. And for all of you who are listening, if you're applying to Ross and you would like help telling your story.

Wondering all kinds of things and you don't want us to do that. You want to give us a definitive answer. Answer. This is why I don't want to.

Jeopardize in a more powerful way. Check out the link in our description or visit ellen lawley's.com to learn more about working with us. We'll see you guys on the next episode.

It's my promotion opportunity or, you know, I've only worked with my supervisor for two months. Anything, it literally takes two seconds. Just explain it.

Yeah. Oh, that's. Yeah. And there's usually a perfectly good reason for it whenever, you know, it's one of those two. 99 of the time. Right.

But when you don't, we're like, oh, but let's look at, you know, like, then you start wondering why.

Yeah, it's not good to leave that unanswered.

Yeah, you don't want to do that.

And what's one thing that you wish applicants would do before they start writing.

Their Essays, as I shared previously, definitely read the prompts carefully and then in addition to that, really be more reflective about all of the experiences. Similar to kind of the interview tip that I provided.

Right.

Think through all of your personal experiences, your professional experiences, and then again, depending on the prompt that you're answering, pick the best one, the most impactful one for you to share. And so taking the time to actually prepare and reflect before actually sitting down to write will be really important.

Yeah, that's such a great tip. You have such a small amount of space to talk about yourself. You can tell who's been strategic, who's been thoughtful, and you can tell who just put whatever they felt like putting.

Yeah, absolutely.

And what's your golden buzzer insight for future Ross applicants? Something that you hope they get out of the application process.

So I really hope that everyone can take the opportunity to just learn more about themselves because to be honest, the MBA application process is extremely reflective. I think they're able to really be able to see how far they've come in their own personal journey as a human being.

Right.

And hopefully they will feel proud of themselves through this reflection reflective process. So that's what I hope they take away.

And for our final round, if you could speak directly to every applicant on deadline day, what's the one thing you would want them to remember before they hit submit?

Yeah, I mean, what a. It's a tough process and I know because I applied for an MBA myself.

Right.

Preparing for the exams, getting all of your materials together, sitting down to write the essays, interview everything. I would just say, look, you've already put your best foot forward. You've done all of the work and now you can finally relax. And I know, I know you can't really relax, but I want you to, I want you to finally be able to feel like who I've done it. Feel proud of yourself. Regardless what the results are, you've put your best foot forward. You've done the work to get to this point where you can actually click submit. And now just take some time for self care and, you know, relax as much as you can.

Yeah, that's a great advice. Please submit a couple weeks early if you can, just to have, have a week or two between writing all the essays and all the craziness and the interviews just for, just for your own well being. Yes, if you can. Awesome, Lisa. Well, thank you so much. These have been such great insights. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast and I'm sure everybody listening to you has, has really benefited a lot from, from your advice.

Thank you so much. This has been really, really fun. The questions you asked were very different.