2025: Got Goals? - [Glue Guys, EP.21]

Early in my career, I'd spend hours alone in the film room thinking I was being productive. But the truth was, I had no idea what I was doing. I was just going through the motions. That's what finance leaders tell me. They're frustrated because they waste hours manually tracking expenses and reconciling statements when they should be focusing on driving their business forward. Be honest with me. How much of your time is spent on high value work? For many finance teams, it's less than 20%. But you can change that right now with Ramp. Ramp is a free corporate card that handles all the tedious financial operations automatically so your finance team can focus on what actually moves the needle. One CFO told me they cut their month end close from five days to one. It's no surprise over 25,000 businesses trust ramp, including Shopify, CBRE and Boys and Girls Club of America. Don't waste any more time going through the motions. Check out ramp@ramp.com GG and for glue Guys listeners, Ramp is offering metal cards for the next 30 days. Just go to ramp.com gigi cards issued by Sutton bank member FDIC. Terms and conditions apply.

Welcome to Glue Guys. We're your hosts, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta and Alex Smith.

And we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work, life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

This is New Year 2025, right? You know, how do you, you know, how do, how do you think about becoming year, right? So so much of our, of our talk this point has been rehashing old, old war stories and we all still think we have a lot this in this world. So you know how, you know the new year is a great time just to reflect on what, what happened in, in, in the years past. And there's always optimism on, on January 1st for, for what's, what's, what's coming. And we just talked before the podcast. You know, the world are changing in so many ways and, and AI and, and everything is changing every single day. So how, so how do you think about 2025 not, not, not to be a, a crystal baller here or, or a pontificator, but just, you know, how, how do you think about, okay, how do you recalibrate and go forward to, to, to have a great year?

Well, first question, Jane, from that before we get to like the actual content is structurally. Do you guys do anything? Do you guys, like, you know, do you make a list? Do you have New Year's resolutions? Like, do you. How structured are you in the goal setting before we get to what the actual goals might be do. What do you guys do? If anything?

I try to go through my. My calendar and just. Just write down good things and shitty things. Like, oh, man, I had this. This talk in California with Ravi, and it was awesome. You know, the feedback was. Was. Was. Was great. The. The crowd was live. Like, that was definitely a highlight in. In November, you know, but when I did that speech in, you know, Myrtle beach in. In April, and I was bad, like, I was. I just didn't have it, you know, And I could tell no one really got anything from it. And so it's super helpful just to go through your calendar. And this is hard to remember, the peaks and the valleys, but if you're looking at your calendar, you just write them out and you get to see, oh, yeah, this was a good month. This wasn't. Wasn't such a good month.

I typically don't. And I don't think it's a good thing. Like, I just. I feel like I've always got my head down and I'm just, like, living in such, like, a short time horizon, like, one thing to the next, like, just the next couple of weeks, right? Like, I'm always just like, what's on the front burner? And I never pull back and look, and I've never done it. I've never done the New Year's resolutions and things like that. I don't know why. They just. I. I like the concept of it. Like, I do think they're, you know, we should. You should pick your head up and, like, evaluate things. And this year, I feel like I've kind of been forced to in some ways, though, like, at least in the last six weeks. So, like, I think the combination of, you know, certainly even the holidays in the new year, but then the. The induction into the hall of Fame really kind of forced a lot of reflection for me, right? Like, even just, like, who I was inviting, my wife throwing this big party. Like, I never did a retirement party. You know, Covid was happening, and so it basically kind of turned into that. And then, you know, it's funny, my. My ESPN contract's up after this year, so, like, super bowl, like, technically is my last gig. And, like, I mean, I.

Back up the truck. Espn. I know the truck.

I. I mean, to be back, I.

Can say that I agree with that, by the way. He didn't have glue guys before when he signed the first time, so now he's got multiple properties, you know, serious leverage.

No, but it's like forced a little bit to like, what Shane, like, you're, I think, kind of talking about. It's really, for me, with my wife, like, what's important, the balance. And I think this is the biggest thing that I've. I've struggled with since retirement is. Is finding the work life balance. Like, my first couple years, I feel like I didn't have enough going on, and it was a lot. A lot of being at the house and playing golf and, like, I've definitely swung. The pendulum has swung, and I have a lot of, like, balls in the air right now. I feel like, you know, part of that too.

Alex, though, like, you know, as an athlete, I struggle with that too. Like, our year was really around the season, right? Like, you look back, for me, it was like in June. Okay, what was the year like? And then you kind of release and then when you start get back in the gym in July, it's like, okay, this is my year. This is what I want to add to my game. And so, like, in a lot of ways, like, New Year's never really mattered to us.

Yeah.

Yeah. You were in the middle of your season.

Yeah.

Yes. No, for sure. I totally agree. You lived by the cycle of your season, right? Like, and. Absolutely. There was a natural beginning and end and in season and out of season. And there were times, I think for me, like, when you're just in it, right? Like your goal. The goals I said were like, well, how am I gonna be a better quarterback? Right? Like, how are they going to achieve these? They're like very tangible things. And I do think now, like, for me, I guess going there, these are more abstract things that I'm talking about, right? Like what. What is actually important to me? What do I want my life to look like, right. Being around my kids, my. My. My son's going to start high school, right? Like in four years, you know, we're doing college trips and he's going to be moving out. So, you know, like, what do I really want in the next four years? So I think it's. It's gauge that kind of reflection for me.

Do you ever feel that because you take a portfolio approach, you know, and Ravi, at some point you're going to want to do different things and maybe do a bunch of. Take the portfolio approach that Alex and I have taken post. Post football and basketball But I'd be curious to know, do you ever feel like you're shortchanging one or another commitment because you have so many commitments and you want to be great in everything, but you only have so many hours in the day and so much energy and that's my struggle. That's my struggle that I have a lot that I'm involved with, but I don't feel great at any one thing right now. Right. Do, do you get that feeling? I mean, you're awesome on tv. So that, that, that's the, that's the caveat. Like you, you are, you are awesome.

So I a thousand percent struggle with that because our lives were the exact opposite prior, right? Like, we reached the pinnacle in a very particular field. Right? Like that. And that was it. And it was our life for so long. And it is completely flipped. I, yeah, I do a lot of dabbling, right. And I'm not an expert in any of it, you know, like, and I'm like feeling my way through. And again, like that entire time when we were playing, I think, you know, it's, it's coming to an end at some point and so you can, you, it's easier to just push all your chips in because you know it's not going to last that long. And you know, again, now, like, what, like, it really has forced me to kind of prioritize too, like the balance. And I think that's what I like, that's the word that I feel like comes to mind most for me right now. But to your point, like, if you have balance, how can you ever be great at something? You know, like, total.

Totally.

Yeah, that's the rope. So, Ravi, there's no, there's no off season in vc, so how do you think of any year and when do you take time to reflect and like, well, end of year is natural, obviously. Everyone's trying to get their taxes straight and their balance sheet straight so as become the de facto time to reflect. Is there, is there a better time?

No, no. I, I, mine is kind of around the calendar year, just like you said. Like, you know, that was fascinating. I didn't think about what you said about like, yeah, like that wasn't the unit that mattered for you guys. It definitely is a unit that matters to me. One thing about Venture is you don't have like, games every day, right. And so like, when you look back in the year, part of what you're looking at is like, how did, did I make good investments? Did I, how were the companies that I worked with? Did they have good years. How did I do? And I think the only reason that matters, Shane, as it thinks about the next year professionally, is you sort of need to figure out like, you know, do I want to do kind of the same thing I did last year and the same approach or do I want to take a different approach?

That's hard because you're dealing with a ten year timeframe.

Right.

So the data set is super incomplete to make a decision. What do I need to do different when you don't know for five years whether or not you made a great decision or not?

Do you guys do like quarterly valuations though too?

Yes, but nobody cares because like the thing about it is that like they can go up and down so much that like you really, it's not a, I shouldn't say nobody cares, it's that it's not a reliable metric of success because so much is based on the cycle.

Well, how much do you do write ups and write downs?

How often we mark our portfolio every six months. Right. But I think that by nature maybe I'll just keep it in venture as a whole. Like it's not as indicative of success or failure as you might think. Right. Because the distribution of outcomes as you know, is going to be such where like one of them is going to turn out to be amazing and two will turn out to be pretty good and most of them will turn out not to be necessarily great. And so the kind of, you know, movements every six months aren't always indicative of what it's going to become. And like, you know, take what we've talked about on Instacart in the past, like there would have been semi annual marks on Instacart that were not terribly positive. Right. But at some point, you know, it worked. And so I think the issue that, the issue to your point, Shane, that ultimately you have is in ours you have a ton of input metrics and not a lot of obvious output metrics that you can rely on. Right. And so like you said, you, you really can't just like look at it and be like, well, you don't even know if the investments you made were good or not. Right. Because it's going to take a long time to figure it out. So I think what you really have to do is like very much be honest with yourself of like, do I think I was seeing good stuff or not? Do I think that I've had good processes to make good decisions or not? I honestly think that you would actually be very good at this like evaluation and almost like, the peaceful approach to, like, do I have good processes or not? Do I want to change my processes or not? I actually, by nature am a little bit less, like, disciplined on that than you are. And so I actually struggle with it more. There's a lot of serendipity that goes into whether the job is going to work or not or whether it's going to be the way you're doing. So a lot of my thought process is less like, can I beat it with, like, a consistent process? But more like, am I creating enough surface area for serendipity? That's honestly the way I'm trying to think about. Like, do I put myself in position for good things to happen rather than, like, do I do the same thing every day to make it happen? Does that make sense?

What is a win, then? A distribution? Like an exit? When do you get to, like, notch one on the belt? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't, you know, I think.

It'S an ipo, it's a sale, it is a, you know, distribution. And so the thing about it is, like, it really does take a super long time now. In the meantime, what you're trying to figure out is, do you have something that you're optimistic about that can become something great? And I think that, you know, a cold, hard look at the companies you work with, you know, is valuable of, like, you know, do I believe that these have a chance to be great? And if they do great? If they don't, what are you doing about it to try and help them, you know, do that? But I guess, like, to make it real for me for 2025, I think that what I am trying to do, based on what you said earlier of, like, the world is changing a lot. I want to meet more companies this year and learn from them than I did last year. And what I mean by that specifically is basically, like, I find that I learn the most when I talk to the people that are, like, the practitioners. And what I'm hoping to do is kind of approach it with a little bit more humility of, like, I don't really know what's going on. Okay, let me try to meet more people and have them tell me what is happening in the world, what can the technology do now that it couldn't do before, and basically try to get some more. So that's, number one, like, meet more, more companies, even if I don't invest in more. And number two, be more willing to share my thoughts in public. And I don't mean Public, like on, in public, outside of Sequoia. I mean, inside of Sequoia. I mean that, like, when I have something on my mind, instead of waiting for it to be fully baked, be like, hey, guys, like, I'm thinking about this. Here's, here's what I think. What do you guys think? Because I think that otherwise, if you kind of wait for it to be fully baked, a lot of times you're too late. And so I think, like, being more okay with, like, this could be wrong. But here's what I think. What do you guys think? And so those are two things I'm going to try and do more in 25, but, you know, the confidence I have that, that will yield an amazing result.

Like, I don't know, did this just happen? Like, did you do this at the end of the year?

Oh, I just, like, tried to think about it over the holidays in India. I mean, like, I probably am a little bit more. I don't like, write it down, but I definitely try to take a little time at the end of the year and think about, are there things I want to do differently next year? A lot of what I want to do is the same. Most of the joy I had last year came from authentic moments with people I cared about. So I'm kind of like, I'm going to do that again. I want to have those moments. The same speech, the Coach K visit. The times all three of us have had together. Some of my time with the kids, like, that is the stuff I'll remember from 24. So there's like a personal section and a professional section.

Flag football title.

Flag football title. Undefeated.

You got to write these things down. We just did dinner last night. My wife emerged from the, from one of the boxes where we just moved and found two big Mason jars full of pieces of paper. And we called it the jars of awesome. 2016, 2018. And so we'd forgot about it. So this is, you know, almost, almost 10 years.

And how does it work?

So whenever something awesome happened, you take a piece of paper and write it down and stick it in there and forget about it. And we had not, we had not revisited it in, in a decade, literally. So 2016, I have my son saying like, oh, man, my little league game was awesome. I had the game winning double, you know, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I remember that game, right? And, and just like the, the small moments, you know, talking to you, Robbie, about going, going back to India over the holidays, like, write those things down, put them in the Jar of awesome. And stick it somewhere where you forget about it and you lose it. And one day you open up and it was so fun to spend an hour just laughing.

That is a great idea.

2025 jar of awesome. It doesn't have to be. It doesn't have to be significant. You know, it could be the most minute thing that makes you laugh. And you know, that's when you look back at that. Those are. Those are the things that matter.

The jar of awesome. Dude, that's. See, because, Alex, I've had a grateful journal in the past and like, I kind of do it. I actually always love when I do it, but I always fade. I always fade, you know, in like just doing it. Whereas the jar of awesome is kind of cool of just like, you can just whatever, write it down, put it in the jar, and everyone like, you have the family connectivity of it is good.

Shane.

That's a really. That's a good. That's a good idea.

It was awesome. I mean, one of our memories, like, we were in. In the Caribbean on vacation, took my son golfing, and a monkey stole my golf ball one time. You know, I hadn't thought about that in 10 years. You know, the damn. The damn monkey stole my golf ball. But, like, I mean, I'm with my son and we'll never forget that. And so it's just random that those. Those are things that matter, you know, at the end of the day.

You know, what would have gone in the jar of awesome, speaking of golf, would have been my dad getting a hole in one, you know, his first hole in whatever last year, playing with Savin, you know, and just putting the biscuit in the basket. That would have been a jar of awesome.

Do you told me that story? I still can't help but think that, like, that is such a core memory for Sabbath. He will remember that, you know, and like, tell his grandkids one day.

So improbable, Alex, that I asked Savin privately. I was like, hey, listen, because, you know, he had like, run up there. And I was like, stop. Like, did you put the ball in the hole? Like, did you. You can tell me. And he was like, no, Dad, I didn't. And I'm like, okay, like. But like, you don't have to tell papa. But like, did you. And he was like, no, it was in there. Like, okay, good, Shane, you know, the monkey's stealing your golf ball. Did I ever tell you that? This is. This is so stupid. Did I ever tell you about I got hit by a horse drawn Carriage in New York one time.

Oh no.

Okay, So I was driving in New York and it was like, I don't know, 17, 18 years ago. And I am in, you know, this car and all of a sudden like behind me is a horse drawn carriage, like a full, like a huge horse and like a big carriage piano. And we're stuck in traffic as one is in New York. And somehow I see in the side view mirror this like dude deciding to like pass me. No, it's a one lane road. There's nowhere to go. But like there's enough room, I guess for a horse. So, so, so all of a sudden I see this horse coming closer and closer on the driver's side. And you know, a horse like in your side view mirror, like gets very large. Then all of a sudden there's like a giant horse next to you. And I'm seeing this and I'm kind of like, oh wow. Like the horse might be able to get by me, but the thing that he didn't realize was like the, the horse, right, gets bigger as you know, you know, in the back. And so he like gets passing me. But all of a sudden, like I look and I'm like, oh wow. Like the side of this horse is going to hit the, the mirror on this car. Like there's a mirror sticking out, like it's, it's going to hit it. And so I see it and all of a sudden the horse's ass, you know, hits the mirror. And all of a sudden you see the mirror shaking, you know, as the horse starts to go by, but the horse keeps going. So all of a sudden the mirror pops off, right? Like full, like pops off like flips up in the air and it like lands on the ground. Now this is a rental car. And so, you know, the guy hears it and like he kind of is like, by me. And I get out, I'm like, dude, what, what are you doing? You know? And he's like, did I do that? I'm like, yes, like, yes, you did that. The mirror was like literally off the car. And just some dude, like, I don't. I'm like, do you have like insurance? And he's like, no, like, just like some dude like driving the horse trunk. And so I'm like, what do we do? And so the guy just rips out 400 bucks in cash. Okay, just takes out $400 in cash, like here. And he gives it to me again. This is a rental car. So I'm like, okay. So I have no idea what this guy Walks, takes away with his horse, and I have $4 in cash and the side view mirror of this rental car in my hand, like, And I'm like, okay, so I go to the, like, Hertz desk and I just go. And I just bring back the car. And I'm like, you're not gonna believe me, okay, but somebody hit me with a horse drawn carriage, and he gave me 400. So the side view mirror is gone. I need a different car. But here's the car, here's the side view mirror, and here's $400, right? And you tell the guy, like, looking at me is just like, what on earth is this idiot doing? And what I'm sure happened is like, the herz guy kept 400 bucks, you know, and was like, hey, Mr. Gupta got sideswiped and, you know, brought in the car and, like, you know, charged it to insurance or something like that. But, yeah, I got hit by a horse drawn carriage. Got 400 bucks. I don't know if that would have been in the jar of all, but.

You did the right thing. You could have pocketed. You could have pocketed the money.

No.

And, you know, we're Indians.

We believe in karma. We would not do that.

Shane, what. What do you do? You're definitely more diligent than.

Yes. Yes.

Do you have a practice here at the end of the year? Like, do you.

I mean, yeah, you know, I think I try to do a good job of just keeping stock of where I am. You know, I have many feedback loops in my. My life. My wife is tremendous feedback loop. And, you know, in the words of brother Gupta, feedback's a gift. And I have people in my close inner circle to know when I'm not, you know, you know, sailing towards my North Star. And I need to get my together.

Right?

And so I really try to think hard about, you know, what I want to be better at in the coming year. Because, look, if you don't take time and just kind of unplug for a second and step back for a second and take stock, we're all too busy. This falls by the wayside, and you get distracted, right? And so it's an important time for me, end of year to reflect and where I need to get my act together, where I'm going. Well, because, like, like, you got a lot of balls in the air. And so, you know, for me, as kids get older, it's super important that I just get more efficient with my time, right? It's not necessarily I want to do more, but I want to make what I do count more. Because the hours I have with my son who's going away to school in a few years, my daughter who's growing up really quickly, it's going too fast, right? And so I could stay busy doing every single day until they leave. I don't want to do that, but I want to do the, what I want to do for myself, you know, podcast and speaking and consulting and helping folks. I want to make it as efficient as possible and really make my time count because it's the most important thing. And it's, it's a, it's a respect thing for myself. It's respect thing for my family and my kids. So I'm always thinking about, you know, how can I do things better, how can I do things more efficiently and how can I just not waste time? That's, and that's, that's the thing that gets me every year. I try to keep track of like, okay, what was a waste of my time and what could I just save a great chunk of energy, resource and trouble and headache just by not doing it right, which is the hardest thing for all of us. But it's a really, really good time because I think people are more honest too, because people are nostalgic and reflective at the end of the year to say, hey, how can I be better?

Right?

Versus catching them in the middle of July when their mind's on vacation and everything's okay. So I think it's a super worthwhile exercise at the end of the year. Take a sheet of paper. What went well, what didn't, where you want to be better. What's a waste of time?

Reviewing the calendar is a good way to do it because otherwise you won't remember, right?

Yeah.

And then Shane, when you do it with like Heidi does, do you guys like kind of like set aside time to do it or is it ongoing at the end of the year? You know what I'm saying? Because like, when she's going to tell you, is it like Avni is more. It's like a day to day thing in a good way. Like it's not, she doesn't really sit down at the end, be like, you know, here's was good and bad. But I'm curious, do you and Heidi like sit down?

We try again. You get bogged down, you know, and anyone in a relationship of any time period knows you get bogged down by the details sometimes. So it's really hard to step back and say, okay, where are we? And take stock. But it's, yeah, I think just from a relationship standpoint, it's like the most important thing you can do, right? And making time for your significant others. One thing we do a very, very poor job of is, is doing that right? And so just literally getting a coffee for 20 minutes a month to check in and not talk about carpool, not talk about the, the kids schedules, not talk about, you know, the, the stuff that bog us down the bills, you know, but like, hey, how, how are you doing? What's going on? You know, everything okay? What are you excited for? You know, where are we going on vacation this summer? Like, those small moments are so important that we try to, we try to remember monthly, but at the end of the year you realize, like, we should do that more because it's, it's. Especially in a relationship, it's the lifeblood.

Alex, what did you figure out when you, I was curious when you said you did the hall of fame, like invites and stuff like that. Like, what did you, what did you figure out or conclude, you know, when you were doing that?

I mean, I think it, like it was another practice of like, I mean, I obviously, you know, I spoke there and there were so many people from different stages of my life. Like I had childhood people there, high school, college, all like my stops of the pros and certainly, you know, a chunk here from, from the Bay Area, like my post football life. And so I, I don't know, it made me reflect on all of that, right? Like, and, and all the people that have had such like a big impact on my life. I think where I'm at, like what I've been through, you know, I, I don't, I don't know.

I.

You know, and again, for me, the combination of that and then again, right, like contracts up, you're staring at potential unemployment. Right. Like again, or even if I do get a, you know, another contract, like, what do I want that to look like? You know, like again trying to evaluate all these different, you know, things passing and you know, here going forward. I was definitely at a moment here over break where like, and this never happens to me, but like, I definitely, like Shane, that you're talking about, like, I wanted to press pause. Like I could press pause right now, like with my kids and like where we're at and like how things are going. I would. And like certainly was a grateful moment. I meant that in like a grateful way. You know, like, obviously. And you know, you realize like this is, you know, obviously not possible, but. Yeah, I mean, I think again, like the speech element of it like I distinctly remember getting up on Saturday mornings like as a 8 year old kid and just like the joy of watching college football and reflecting back on that, you just get lost on it and all of a sudden it'd be so weird, the induction. So I again like, it forced me into the reflection, right. And normally this time of year I just don't do it right. I feel like I.

And you're so lucky. I mean most people don't get that moment. Totally, right? They get that moment, it's at their funeral.

Totally, totally.

You know, depending on what you believe, you may or not be there to appreciate it, you know. And so when I went to the hall of Fame and being surrounded by loved ones, it's special, be able to take stock and understand the journey. You know, most of us just grind and grind and grind and grind and they look up and most of their friends have moved away or passed on or whatever and you're left, just left with your memory. So it's, you know, congratulations on that moment. It's rare, it's rare.

And I think to your point, Shane, having it at a young age where you can still like, you're old enough to reflect, but young enough to still like have a lot in front of you, that's very unique, right? Because like, I think that's actually funny enough, one of the positives, all these negatives of like being a professional athlete of like you, you finish that aspect of your chapter or career early. But the positive of it is like you get that moment. Like, you know, your kids are there, they're involved, they're around, they're like one of the best parts about Alex's thing was like his kids played a big part in like the speech before his, you know, they were like asking his former coaches questions. Yeah, that, that's, that is very unique. The thing that, you know, I was thinking about, like for people that are not, I would presume that the majority of the Glue Guys listenership is not going to have a Hall of Fame induction somewhere between 35 and 45. But I was thinking about for the rest of us, my moment like you described, Shane, was actually at my 40th, where you were at, at my birthday, just because like kind of getting a moment where like you have all these people that you love and that love you and that are like around and you get to talk to them and you get to say what they mean to you, you know what I'm saying? And they are there to hear it and it's like an appreciation in the moment rather than just like when it's over, you know? And it felt really good to me of like getting to tell everyone how much they meant to me and then being like, and we have a lot of years left of doing this, like it's not just at the end of it. And I thought that that was like a very cool thing, that that's something like I'll remember forever.

Shank, this is totally random question again, but can we get a little inside basketball right now? There's drama. Come on, man. High drama.

There's always drama, Alex. There's always drama. You know, everyone has, everyone has problems, okay? You know, in sports, even the championship teams, okay, Even like the Miami Heat when I was going for back to back NBA championship, we were still dealing with bullshit, okay? The bullshit was maybe smaller. That's the fallacy. There, There is no like hunky dory situation on any sports team. Have you, have you played on one where there hasn't been, you know, any drama any year?

Obviously there's a fine line. Like, I've been there. There's healthy conflict on good teams, right? Like there is like that does happen. It's not all like, you know, roses and flowers, like, but you, very quickly it can become drama, right? And I think when you, like, I mean, to me that has a negative, you know, like it very quickly can become a distraction and clearly suspending your star for seven games. And I mean, well, you know what.

The great Pat Riley said, You know, you can't have 12 milk drinkers. You got to have a couple guys drink jack, right? And we talked about the, the, the, the, the tension that you need in a locker room. And it's, it's a fine line.

That's the part that's interesting to me is the fine line, right? Which is like, well, you know, where, where does it go from like healthy tension to drama?

I learned a ton from, from Pat Riley when I played for him. And he, and he, he and I have very different styles. All right? We, we, we, we disagreed on a lot, but we agreed on a lot. And what I will say about, about Pat that I respect is just his conviction to what he has built, right? And I think all the great leaders we've had on glue guys shares share their view. You know, from Fiji to Doug McMillan.

Urban.

Urban, like this is the franchise, the brand is the most important thing. And it's going to be here long after we're gone, right? And so it, we have to do whatever we can to protect this because it means something. Because we built something special here. And, you know, I'm sure you see it in. In business every day, Robbie, that there are leaders out there that, that don't believe that, right? They're just trying to. To turn a profit or, or, you know, grow ebitda, whatever, and. And those companies don't make it right? And so the belief and what I take away from Par Riley is, you know, that dude believes every last fiber of his core about the culture of the Miami Heat, why we're here and why we're successful. And it was. It was amazing. Amazing to be a part of. For the many years I was with the team.

The thing that is crazy about that, in my opinion, is, like, so one. I totally agree. Yes. Like, I think that, like, you know, that whole, you know, that whole expression of, like, ship, Shipmates, me, you know, like, the ship has to come first, and then your teammates come, and then yourself comes. Like, the people that really put that they think, like, that they. They behave differently. So I, I definitely. I think that that's right. What I really find interesting about the Heat situation specifically here is the Heat culture is so. From the outside, based on, like, hard work, right? Like, just this extreme, you know, like, grittiness, grinding, hard work, you know, thing. And it just teaches you that there's definitely different layers to the culture because interesting as, like, you study humans, people change. That's one of the biggest things I learned in the Coach K episode was I asked him, thinking he was gonna be like, yeah, I just, like, know people. Like, I, I, I can figure it out. And his thing of, like, no, people change, and I have to change with them, and I have to. I never really know them. I kind of have to, like, always see where they're at. That was like, I wrote that down. I think about it all the time of, like, how many people did we freeze in time? Or how many people are freezing me in time? I thought that was one of the coolest things that he had said.

That's an amazing skill because we're all guilty of that. We are all guilty. We freeze a lot of people, whether it's our significant other, our children. But it's an amazing insight. Very, very difficult to implement.

Very difficult.

On that note, it's the exact note. You're not the same. You constantly, I think Kansas City and Andy Reid, right? And this is just honest, right? Like, I don't harbor any bad feelings towards Andy, right. For trading me after five years. And my family, though, like, it's not all the same, and no different With Jim Harbaugh, right. Like, when he, like, same thing, right? Like, bench me and then trades me. And there's certainly, like, you know, my wife and mom, like, those are things they just. They're. They're never going to let go.

Yeah. Ever.

And so they have a hard time, like, when I speak positively about both those guys. And, like, they have a very hard time.

You know, and so true. It's so true.

But I think from a leadership standpoint, again, going back to the point, like, there are so many people, like, to think about what the Chiefs have accomplished and even, like, Andy's career. But, like, the shelf life is short, right? Like, for players. And you do. I think if you held on to what a guy had accomplished or done for you or done for the team or like the boat to your analogy, Ravi, like, you're constantly not. Like, if you hold onto that. That emotional standpoint from it, like, you're not doing what's best for the boat going forward. Like, there are so many guys that, like, he chipped me off and like Jamal Charles and like Donovan McNabb. And, like, you do have to do what's right.

Don't you think it's a weird contradiction? Because as a. As a manager of people, right. Whether it's a coach or, you know, a manager or an executive, all you want is consistency. You want to know what you're getting into every single day, Right? You don't like surprises. People in leadership do not like surprises. So we talk about spiky people, and people will be willing to deal with spiky people if the talent is commiserate, but they don't want spiky, I guess, execution or performance. Right? So that's the rub. So that's the rub. Even though the one thing that's going to change, one thing that's constant is change is people. And we're going to change, and our mentality is going to change and our abilities are going to change and our motivations are going to change and the, you know, with the wind. And so it's just super interesting that. To hear Coach K say that when it's. It's. It's a contradiction in a lot of ways, but we crave that certainty.

So can I tell you something that I. I wholeheartedly agree with what you said in the contradiction. And I think that Alex, like, the example you give of, like, this person needs to care about, you know, the team first. Right? But then in. In order to care about the team first, they basically have to, like, be. They have to make a lot of changes on personnel, and let's say in sports, it's the most. But in business, you also have to do it right. And the thing that I thought that was cool from Coach K was his point of, like, I'm always going to tell you the truth. It actually allows you to, like, bridge the gap a little bit in that very, very, very hard thing, which is like, okay, we all agree that, you know, the team is the most important thing, right? Yes. Okay. Now, if I have to tell you the truth, my obligation is to tell you, you are no longer, in your current form, the best thing for this team in that position. That sucks. That's a ridiculously hard message. But by putting, like, we look each other in the eye, we always tell each other the truth. As, like, number one, I think he found a way to, like, really bridge that gap. That. And he doesn't make it a contradiction because he's like, I told you from day one that the most important. I was always going to tell you the truth. Now, I think the issue is most people don't want to, like, actually say those words. They don't want to have the conversation. You know what I'm saying? They want to be liked. They're uncomfortable. And I think. I actually think that that piece and, like, his willingness to do that is, like, really unique for a leader, but really important.

And I think if you live by that daily, you probably don't blindside somebody either. Right? Like, the writing is probably on the wall, and I think it potentially has been.

You're consistent.

Yes.

The messaging is consistent. Right. I played for Hubie Brown, who's unbelievable, and he would cuss us out on the regular, but he always told us, he said, look, I may swap. Spit at you. I may, you know, cuss you out. I'm never going to embarrass you, but I'm going to. I'm going to demand excellence. But tomorrow, we will always start new. And he lived it. And so, again, to. To Coach K's point, where we look each other in the eye, we don't lie. You know, every day when we walked in, Hubie never brought in the argument we had yesterday where he was pissed at you and called you all sorts of names. You start new.

And, like, that is so difficult.

It is so difficult. You know, I haven't met a coach yet who doesn't hate their team. At one point, every player on the team, I don't care if that's LeBron. I don't care who that is. Every. Every coach Hates their player at some point for their performance, where they're at it, whatever it is. But to start brand new, man, that's an amazing lesson that we could all learn from.

Yeah, I think that consistency, I even think it's broader. I agree with you, Shane Hubie's consistency was starting new. Right. Even after doing it. A friend of mine used to tell me, I don't know if this is true, but this is what he would say. He's like, the definition of trust is consistency over time. It's just like, basically what ends up happening is somebody sees how you are for a long period of time, and then they learn to trust you because they can predict the way you'll be, you know what I'm saying? Because they have some idea of your algorithm or mental model.

What if you're a bad. A bad person consistently does that?

Yeah, I think that that's a good. That would be a way that. I think that's a good way to, like. Yeah, like, I think that you're right. Like, it has to be, like, good consistency. You know what I'm saying? Like, because I think he was making the point, which I agree with, is, like, if you want someone to trust you, you have to behave in a consistent way, you know, for a long period of time. Trust us doesn't just happen. Right. I think that. But maybe to argue with myself for a second one, I agree with you of, like, if it's bad behavior, no one's going to trust you, so you have to make it good behavior. But actually, again, from the Coach K thing, one of his big things was, like, he thinks he's unique in getting to speed the trust. Remember, like, his thing was, you know, from the day I recruit you in your living room, you're going to trust me because I'm going to tell you something nobody else is going to tell you in that moment. And so maybe it doesn't take time. Maybe it's more about, like, telling hard truths. I don't know. I don't. Maybe it's both.

How's that different or similar to Dalio and his radical candor?

I don't know Ray Dalio at all. I've read his stuff. I think if you read. Well, just in case people haven't read it, this idea of Bridgewater always tells everyone exactly the full truth is the idea, you know, and they, like, record all their meetings. They, like, watch game tapes of their meetings. You know, like, they keep transcripts of everything. So I think that. That. I think that, you know, had a Lot of positives to it. I think what, what you read sometimes in various pieces about Bridgewater is that at some point he wasn't using that standard for himself, you know, And I think that that would argue for the kid like it was in, he was being inconsistent with his principles. I will say that Bridgewater attracted a set of talent at a time that was much more. I don't mean diverse in terms of socioeconomic diverse, I mean diverse in terms of interests almost. In finance, they were able to attract people that wouldn't have obviously been interested in finance for a long time because people believed that they were the most truth telling place that there is. And I do think that, I don't know, I wrote that down from the Coach K thing too, which is like, if I can be somebody who is more consistent in telling people the truth than others, I will have unique relationships. And in my business that is ultra important. And it's something like, if you think about it, Shane, like, think about like we say no to 99% of the people that we talk to about investing in their business, right? And what's the easiest way to say no? Oh, you know, it's not you, it's, it's me. It's, it's not about your business. It's. You just come up with something to like, get out of the conversation. When you choose not to pursue something, what's really hard is to be like, no, the actual reason is this, right? This is the concern I have on your company or whatever. And it's very hard to tell people the truth in that situation. But something that like, I'm trying to do a lot because I think as like an entrepreneur, as an executive, most people don't tell you and you don't get the benefit of it. And when I look back to my times at Instacart, even the people that turned us down to fund us, I am very grateful to the very few who told us the actual reason why, because it was helpful. Like one of the guys I'm very close with who actually lives in Woodside, I don't know if you know him, Alex. Mark Casey. Do you know Mark? Mark is a public market investor who at some point we talked to and he was, you know, when he was there, he was like, I'm not gonna, you know, sometimes public market guys will do the private market stuff. He was like, I'm not going to invest. And he sent us like a really like, nice, like three paragraphs as to like, why not? And it was tough. It was like, you know, Not. It was not pleasant, you know what I'm saying? Because it was not like you guys. It was not all roses. But he and I are very close to this day. And it started because he, like, took the time to tell us the truth about our business. He was humble. He's like, I don't know. But here's what I think, and I think it was, like, very affecting and impacting to me.

I definitely think there's something to leaders, like, your idea of hard truths, Shane, and, like, vulnerability. And I think they kind of go hand in hand, right? And I do think that they're.

You.

Know, for me, again, like, I went through it on both sides with Andy Reid, like, from when he traded for me and then when he traded me away, you know, and like, five years in between. But there was just, like, an honesty and, like, sincerity about these conversations with them. Like, they weren't. He didn't. He honestly didn't even make him a big deal, right? Like, it just. It just was part of who he is. And I think it was also part of the culture because, like, I distinctly remember, like, we'd be playing and, like, Donovan McNabb would be coming by, like, the night before a game and, like, would be hanging and hugging everybody. And, like, there were definitely coaches and players that he had had that had been a part of his journey that, like, we're no longer part of it, that still were always welcome back. And same thing for me, like, guys we cut, like, they were, like, great teammates of mine, like, would come back and, you know, they'd be out of practice and again be around. And it was part of the norm for him. And it still is, right? Like, I was at their. I went to their team hotel when they played here in the Bay Area, and, like, I sat in on meetings and, like, he's still just. It's like, you know, I don't know, like, that idea of, again, like, hard truths and vulnerability, like, going hand in hand, you know, as a leader.

Well, a question for you guys. If I just take Andy Reid or Coach K, take two different, very different people, and then I can tell you about leaders I've had. But it seems like they both told hard truths, but they did it in different ways. Like, you're saying Andy did it in almost like, not a big deal kind of way. Like, what. When he would have a hard conversation about that, what was it like? And then I want to compare that to the way, like, Coach K would have been with you, Shane, when he would do that or with anyone.

So like for me, when I, if I'm on the other end of it and I have to like, I feel like have a hard conversation with somebody, it's certainly like immediate like anxiety, right? And I, and I build this thing up into something bigger than it potentially needs to be to become. And then I end up handling it in a way. A lot of times it's like not even me by nature, right? Like, and I end up getting myself in these awkward situations and awkward conversations and like I'm like way too serious about something or how I'm trying to. I'm so like perceptive about how I'm delivering this message and it like ends up becoming this thing that's like out of character. And then I've really blown, you know, like I've become my own. I've like manifested what I was trying not to do. And Andy. And it's just like, I think one of the great qualities of him and it's just, I don't, you know, it's like the mustache and the, you know, it's just like an easy conversation. Like you come in and he just he it like it just has it out there. And a lot of times there's even a smile on his face and you know, like it just, there's a light heartedness that comes with all these things sometimes that I, I don't. Maybe it's just a, I don't, you know, I don't know where it comes from for him, but it's certainly something that like having gone through it with him, it, it makes, you know, it makes it nice.

You know, I, I think to contrast with Coach K there, there was never anything random about his feedback. Okay. So like looking back at it, you know, he got, he got pretty pissed. I remember one time, you know, in 1999, we lose one game, all right? We went to Alaska, lost in the great Alaskan Shootout in the finals to Cincinnati. Was top five team at the time. They had a bunch of pros. And you know, on the last second play, Melvin Levitt caught the ball and dunked it. I mean you would have thought like we committed, you know, atrocities, you know, to humankind. I mean, I'll never forget that. That flight home from Anchorage, Alaska to Durham, no one talked about. I mean, that's a long ass flight, right? No one talked, no one looked at each other, no one smiled, nothing. And that next day, I mean it was the hardest practice to this day I've ever had. And we're, we're number one in the country. And he Comes in the locker room, we had this frame poster that said Championship Vision. That was our theme of the year. He took it off the wall. He's like, you know what I think of our Championship Vision? Took it and just bashed it against the wall. Glass goes flying everywhere. That's what I think of Championship Vision. Right? That was not by accident. That was not. That was a very calculated move. And so. But I think it goes back to Coach K just being very thoughtful, always on the messaging and with the hammer of I'm going to tell you the truth and I'm going to be thoughtful about how I, how I communicate with you. You were able to accept it. You may not like it, all right, but you were able to accept it because of the consistency and the base of that. And so you, you learn to try to avoid that wrath.

Ravi, you say, I mean, by nature of your job, you say no a lot now, right? And you just told us obviously earlier, like, you're hopeful to have even more conversations, which means even saying no more often. Have you? And obviously you spoke even about your experience on the other side of the table, right, with Instacart and getting told no. I don't know, like, have you. Is that an easy thing for you?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's not easy at all. Just like you said, Alex, like, anytime you're going to have any sort of conversation with conflict, I think most people's like, heart starts to beat a little faster. Like all the normal physiological stuff, like, for sure, I think. Oh, just before I answer those, thinking about one thing, like, it is interesting that Coach K and Andy Reid both like, good at dealing with conflict, good at bringing up the conversation, good at telling the truth. Completely different styles, right? Of like light hearted, a little bit of a smile, make it a smaller deal. Coach K is like whatever, more variable, let's say that, you know. But Alex, I think that for mine, I think there's a few different things that maybe take like a spectrum one, you know, there's like this history and venture of like people just like ghosting the founder. This is like taking the meeting, not wanting to invest and just like not getting back to them. So like there are people that there's a level of behavior that's like insane. They just like do not even get back to the person. Okay, so already by like consistently telling somebody the truth that even what you're going to do, you are like above the worst version, which, like, is not the right standard, but I would say the best version is if you know in the meeting that you're not going to do something, tell them in that meeting. Don't, like, go away and email them later, right? Like, tell them to their face in the meeting. Like, we're not going to do this. And here's why I think that the difference in mine, in that setting versus a managerial setting, I'll just use two different things. I have, like, two different, like, versions. One is like, I have a lot of context, and it's about a person, and I'm like, the leader. In that case, I can tell them, you know, look, you're not performing. We got to make a change, and here's what's going on. Or if it's like a founder I work with and say, your ambition is here and our performance is here, it's not going to match that. I have a lot of context. The reason that passing is sometimes difficult is, you know less about this than the founder does, right? You've met them for an hour, and so. And then you're supposed to comment on their business. And that's really hard because, like, they know a lot about it. So I think the first thing you have to do is you have to start with a lot of humility. Look, I've known you for an hour. You know, you've thought about this every day for the last three years. Do you even want my opinion? You have to ask them. If they say yes, then you'd be like, okay, cool. Now, again, like, I really don't know that much about this, but let me tell you what I think, and then you can start sharing your thoughts, and then you can say, like, look, the truth of it is, it's not that I'm sure that I'm right, you know, about these negatives or nervousness that I have about your business. It's that in order for me to invest, I have to be a lot more confident in the positives. And today I'm not. And so we might be able to get there, but today I can't. And the reasons that I can't are because of these open questions I have. And, you know, do with that what you will. And I think the more real that you can be with somebody on, like, those questions, the more you can help them. And that's why Mark Casey was so helpful on Instacart. He's like, you guys are saying A, B and C is going to happen. Here's the evidence I see for those things. And funny enough, they ended up happening luckily enough, right? But he's like, I Don't see enough evidence to be confident that those things are going to happen. I agree with you. That would make a great business. But I can't draw the line you can draw yet. And here's why you say this. I see this. And it was just like, it was so helpful because it was like finally somebody just telling us the actual reason that they wouldn't do something. You know, it ended up being a trust building exercise.

Have you ever done a deal with somebody that you said no to?

Oh, yeah, for sure.

And it's come back around.

Yeah, definitely. And, but, but you know, what happened in that case was I said no. And who knows if I would have gotten an email. I think I would have. But, you know, I said no. And then I told the person, I said, you know, I really value, I really think that you're like a awesome person. I like your business. I, I want to help anyway, even if I'm not involved officially. And we actually would talk, we would talk every month afterwards, even though we didn't have any money in it, because I actually did care about the person. And after four or five months, I told him, I was like, hey, listen, I'll talk to you anyway. There's nothing specific, nothing to an investment, nothing else you should know. I was definitely wrong five months ago. I should have invested then. And if you'd ever consider doing it again, I would totally want to do it. But you should also know that we can just keep it like this forever. Like, I will help you. I'll still talk to you. I don't have anything like offer you of, like more support. I'll support it anyway because I really enjoy talking to you. But I was wrong. And you know, if you're up to talking about it at a higher price, I would love to. And he did. And so I think the same thing. Like, I think it required me probably saying I was wrong, but I was. And so I think that helped. But then also, like spending time with him in between. I think a lot of people make their advice contingent on investing and that's not a great relationship starter. Unless I have money in here, I'm not going to help you. That doesn't seem like a great way to behave.

Not sustainable at least.

Yeah. And it's not something you're going to feel proud of at the end of the year.

Where does the burden of being direct and offering that direct feedback, honest feedback lie? Is, Is, is that a real question? Should you be obligated to give that feedback? I mean, you're doing it because you're a nice guy and you want people to do well. You know, should you be obligated to do that? Is there any. Any scenario where you wouldn't get that feedback because you don't like the person or, or for sure, but.

But I mean, like, think about it like this, Shane. Like, okay, this is a. This is a hypothetical example. Okay, let's say that you were a GM today, right? And you and I are as close as we are, but I think you're doing a bad job as a gm, right? In this hypothetical, I don't know that I would tell you because I don't know enough. I'm not, like, in that business. Right. And, like, you need me to be your friend more than you need my feedback on you being a good or bad gm. And so I guess to me, like, I don't think you, like, always have to give everyone direct, you know, tough truths. I think you kind of have to judge. I think in the scenario that I'm in, which is I'm telling someone that we're not going to pursue an investment, I think offering them the truth is an obligation. I think that, like. Would you like to hear it? That's an important aspect of it. But, yeah, I think that that is. No. They can say no, but I do think that that is. They took the time to tell you about their business. I think that you offering an opinion is correct. I don't know. What do you think?

I don't think you owe it to everybody. I think it's conditional. I'm reminded of Simon Sinek. He had a great clip I watched about giving feedback in emotional situations. And he said he went to Off Broadway production of. Of one of his friends, and he's like, it was the worst thing I ever saw in my life. I mean, I was like, checking my watch, you know, was my good friend. I'd be out of there. And I stayed to say hello afterwards and. And my friend came up to me and said, what'd you think? And, you know, obviously just. Just so proud of her performance. And like, he's like, that is not the time to be direct, you know. And so my comment was, I love watching you perform. You know, I love your passion. I love. I love. You know, and it was a very nice way, saying, like, I. I'm here to support you. And then the next day when the adrenaline had worn off and. And he called his friend again and said, hey, do you. Do you want to know what I thought about the play? And that's when he delivered the rational feedback. And so in your situation, you know, as much as it is rational, it's emotional because you're dealing with, oh, for sure, baby. For three, four years, right? So, you know, Simon always says you got to match emotional with emotional. Rational, Rational. And you. And you get in trouble, especially when giving feedback. When you, when you try to match rational with emotional, no bueno.

I think that's a really good. That is a very good point, which is that you got to see what kind of state of mind the other person's in, and you either have to judge it or ask it. But you. I like that Simon saying. I think there's a lot that I learned from listening to him, but that one's a good one.

I've learned that the hard way with my wife. I love you, Adi.

Dude. It's not, it's not actually. Alex, I don't know if you've ever been on the receiving end of some Shane feedback, but at one time I was actually on the receiving end and one of his other friends actually came up to me was like, hey, man, you're being kind of tough on, on. On old Ravi here. And so, you know, Shane, Shane is he. He will lean in to the feedback, you know, which I, which I always appreciate about Brother Badier. I think Brother Smith would take a little while to give some, some real feedback.

Well, it's so funny, man. Obviously. Listen to this. We're kind of like, we've blended, like, I think professional, right. Feedback is so different. And I guess, like what Shane and I talk about, even though it's sports, I mean, that was a professional environment. Right. And it's, it's built into the structure of, of the business. But like some of these, like, if they are friendships, right? Like, we even talk about, like some of these conversations you say no to. These are still relationships that you're going to have, right? It's way different. Right. And if you're definitely seeing a good friend go, go put themselves out there on a stage and be vulnerable. Definitely not the time to like, you know, be harsh and you want to pick your, you know, choose your word.

Pretty poor.

Yeah. Wisely. But I guess I hope and aspire to always be able to tell a hard truth, you know. And I think, like, it's hard, though, and I don't do it a lot. Like, I think about this a lot. Like someone told me, you know, if I'm writing a text or an email and I use the word honestly like that you shouldn't use that. Like, what the hell Are you not being honest all the time? You know, but it is a phrase that I find myself being conscious of that I do use, and I'm not very good at it. If I were to be, you know, honest with myself. No pun intended. No pun intended there.

You want booger friends and a booger friend tells you when you got a booger hanging out.

Yes, yes, Right, totally.

Because, because you don't have time with that. Right? So do I. I appreciate it.

Yeah. But you know what? You know what, though, Shane? I actually, I'll go one step further. Booger friend. Listen, a booger, like, you know, you're not, you're not a bad person because you got a booger. You need a friend that tells you if you like, have bad breath. I'm talking like that you need some. That's a different level because then it's like, no, no, I need you to do something about. It's not like nobody's fault, it's your fault. You know, like, it's so funny though.

When I'm on the receiving end of it. I do appreciate it. Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't at all look, but I have a very, I don't. I mean, I don't do that. I don't. I have a hard time being on the other side of it.

I think, Shane. I think you're a booger friend. I think, Shane. Oh, yeah, I think so.

I tell my, my people, if I don't give you feedback, then you got to worry I might, you know, I'm.

Putting it on my New Year's resolution right now.

You're going to, you're going to be more feedback.

I'm going to be. Aspire to be a booger friend.

I'm going to get the 2020.

I'm going to get better at it.

The 2025 goal for Alex is to be better at being a booger friend. Okay. I do think, though, Shane, in all seriousness, I think that I have taken a few things from you today of like the go back in the calendar and reflect and kind of use that as a tactic to write down what was energy giving versus energy draining. Right? The second thing of the jar of awesome, like, big deal. And then the third thing is be a booger friend. I feel like those are three things that I like. Those are good takeaways for me for like, you know, goals for 2025.

That's a great list. You know, you could do a lot worse. Yeah, you could do a lot worse.

All right, I'm going to I'm going to turn us off.

Thanks for tuning in to Glue Guys. We're on social media at Glue Guys Underscore Podcast, and we'll be back next week.