How To Prepare Your Kids for the Future - [Glue Guys, Ep. 75]

We were playing a game, a card game. Zeke beat me and I'm, you know, throwing a fit. I'm like, I can't believe this. What is this? And Zeke looked at me and said, Dad, a wise man once said, there's only winning and learning. Which is what I say like every day, right? I've said it like every day for like the last 10 years. I'm like, shut up, asshole. The most mysterious guy. Ravi Gupta. Tried to Google you one time. You're like Illuminati. You've already scrubbed the internet. You can't find anything about you.

You know, the real issue is that Ravi Gupta is like an extraordinarily— it's like almost as common as Alex Smith.

I was just going to say, I literally just wanted— do you think there's more Ravi Guptas or Alex Smiths on the planet?

I think there's probably more Ravi Guptas just because, like, we got a billion Indians out there. Like, I don't know, like, What do you think, Alex?

I have no idea.

This is like a knowable answer that we could ask. I guess, Shane, we could do your game. What is that? Laden Thinks or something like that?

Laden Thinks.

Yeah. Um, it's like, doesn't matter if you're right, it just matters if you're— what's the rule of that game? It matters if you're like closest to the other person or something?

All that matters is that you guess closer to what your friend thinks is the answer. So you're basically judging whether your friend is an idiot or not and whether he knows what he's talking about, or she.

Is Gupta close to Smith? Like, is it that like level of—

We're going to play this game. Okay. And so we'll do it. I will be the, the guesser. And the first one is how many Ravinder or Ravi Guptas are in the world?

Okay. So Ravinder is going to really narrow it down. You got to go Ravi, but you're doing Ravinder or Ravi. So you have additive. Okay.

Okay. I'm coming up with a number. I'm writing it down.

You're pretty quick with this estimate. I would have no—

No, Shane did consulting interviews. He's fully ready to go.

Okay, I will get— yep, I will give you, uh, the first guess, and then Ravi has to take the over or the under as to what I think how many Ravi Guptas are in the world right now walking around.

Okay, then I'm gonna guess he's given the over-under on where you put the mark.

Yes.

Oh God, it's called Ladin Stinks. How many Ravi Guptas, Ravinder Guptas are there in the world that you think that I think there are?

This is why even when aging—

all right, are there— I mean, I— this is insane. I mean, you could— okay, I'm gonna go, uh, are there—

how many do you think I'm guessing? That's the— okay, that's what you're trying to get.

You're guessing how many Shane is guessing.

Can I say it out loud?

Yes, yes. Okay. Ravi, do you take the over or the under 50,000?

Okay.

I'm going to make my thinking legible, Shane. So how I think you're going to have thought about it, I think you're going to have taken how many Indians there are in the world, and you're going to have taken a percentage of them that are Guptas. Okay. That's what I think you're going to have done. So I think you're going to say there's a billion Indians, and then you're going to say, okay, let's say 2% of them are Guptas. That's what I think you're going to say, something like that. So that would be just like doing the math, I think that means there's 20 million Guptas. Okay, 20 million Guptas. Then you're going to say, okay, what percentage of those Guptas are men? 10 million. Then you're going to say, what percentage of those Guptas are Ravis? And you're going to say 1% of those. So you're going to say 100,000. Okay. I'm going to guess that you think there's more. I'm going to take the over on Alex's number.

The number, Guga Nation, is 287,000 Ravi Guptas in the world. That's the question, folks.

Let's go. Now, Shane, can you make your thoughts?

Is like the game over? Do we fact-check this thing?

Uh, that was not scientific. There are a billion Indians and a good proportion of them are, uh, are Guptas.

Yeah.

And Ravi is the Alex of, of India, um, in the, in the Indian region. So now we're gonna go to Alex Smith. So Ravi, how many Alex Smiths do you think there are in the entire world?

Well, sorry, how many do I think you think there are?

Correct.

Okay. So I think you're going to be anchored on your number and you're going to go less. Okay. I think that you think there are 204,000 Alex Smiths in the world.

204,000 Alex Smiths in the world. Alex, do you think that my guess is higher or lower than that number?

I think, I think your guess is lower.

Lower.

I mean, if there's a billion Indians—

Alex Smith, I guessed 90,000.

I mean, we're a third of the size.

There's only 2,008 Alex Smiths in the world.

Yeah.

What did you consider we in there when you said we're a third of the size? What's the we?

The US. Where— I mean, listen, there's not many Smiths outside the US, maybe England, but they spell it differently, right? Smith is a predominantly US name.

That's really bad. That's Poor analysis on my part. You're right. You're right. I stand corrected.

Maybe a couple Australians. It's not really a populated place.

No, good. It was bad. That was bad. Bad. Shane, before I hit record, you were saying it goes by fast. What were you saying? You were just like—

First day of senior year for me, which is— it's mind-boggling. We talk about this all the time as parents that, you know, and Alex and I were talking about this before we hit record that everyone says it goes fast. It goes fast. It goes fast, whether it's your career or parenting, getting to that next stage. And, you just don't really believe it until you have a frigging senior that you're taking. We take the picture on the front door of first day of school every year. And now, my guy is as tall as I am and it's just like, wow. This is crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy.

You and Heidi talk about it at all? How did she handle it?

Good. You know, when your kids get older, you're just like, all right, it's time.

You're like, it's just the two of us now. It's you and me. You and me, Heidi.

It's been great. It's been great. And I hope he has a great senior year and has a lot of fun and great basketball year. But it's, you know, it's a different ballgame. It's a different ballgame. So it goes fast, boys.

It goes fast.

Shane is the elder statesman of Glue Guy Nation.

Yes.

Shane, how do you feel right now? I get that it goes fast, and I feel it on your behalf because mine feels like it's going fast, my parenting experience. But how do you feel right now? Do you feel happy? Are you feeling like— are you kind of bummed? What are you feeling?

I'm feeling very happy. I am a sap. Okay. So, I'm a crier. So, I know as we get closer to that graduation day and last homecoming, last prom, I'm going to have some tears. And so, I'm not ashamed to have tears. And, my family knows I'm going to cry and they go, Dad, don't cry, please. But, I'm a sap. But, it's also just exciting to see your little guy become a dude and see my daughter grow up and become a young woman and sort of figure things out for themselves, things they don't agree with me on, which is great. I love. And it's just, it's really cool to see something you've taken care of for so long and try to nurture and try to just to stay out of harm's way, you know, get ready to leave. And my son's a pretty good basketball player. So he's gonna have some options to play in college next year. And so hopefully we have a great year and goes to a great school. But, you know, you never are done being a dad. But there is a feeling of like, man, you know, hey, I've skated hard to this point. All right. And this— he's not fully formed, but he's getting there. He's getting there. And—

Is Zeke bigger than you? Is he taller than you?

Everyone thinks he is because I slouch in pictures and he's got A lot of hair. I don't think he's got me, but it's pretty close.

Close, right? All right. My kid, my kids thought he was taller than you.

Yeah, everyone does.

By the way, which we haven't discussed, the the impromptu run in in Portugal.

Oh, the whole families were there? Yeah, I didn't. I thought it was just a couple. I didn't. I didn't realize that the families ran into each other.

The whole crew. I had the whole crew with me.

That might have been the most improbable meeting.

Yeah, insane.

Of a friend that I've ever had in my entire life and probably will ever again.

Ditto. Same.

What I legitimately, I, I like know you both pretty well. I didn't even know you both were going to the same place. Did you guys even know that you were gonna be like—

No.

Yeah.

I went back and looked at our text chain cuz we were like obviously texting about summer dates and when we were gonna record and we both just said we're going to Europe.

Yeah. Yeah.

And, and we, our windows of overlapping were only like a couple days. when we said like, hey, we're going to be on the continent, let alone we end up being in the same country, let alone we end up being in the same city. Oh, let alone we actually run into each other at the same restaurant in the same minute, right? Like it was just, it's insane.

When you guys sent the picture, I was kind of like, did I miss a text that we were supposed to do something together? You know what I'm saying? Like, like, uh, it was, was it a different weekend? Are you guys recording?

All of a sudden, I feel this, this big, you know, strong man come up and like give me like a bear hug slash like headlock. And I'm like, what? You know, Europeans are not that big. What the shit is this? I turn around and it's, it's my Glue Guy host, Alex Smith, in the flesh.

Brothers.

Cascais, Portugal, you know, on the beach, one of the most beautiful places you've seen. And I'm just— it was, it was surreal. It was a surreal, surreal moment.

Insane. It was so cool.

I think, I think, Shane, the thing that I was thinking about when you were talking about it going fast, like, you know, so my kids, 13, 13, 12, the older boys will be 14 in September. Like, I feel some version of like, damn, this is, this is quick, you know? Like, I— That's what I'm saying. They'll be 14 in September, right? And like, Shane, like, you know, they're not 6'7 yet, but like, you know, they're, they're, they're like, you know, 5'8. They're like, they, they, they're, they're just And their faces kind of—they're kind of growing up, right? You know what I'm saying? Their face, Alex, you've seen them like they just yeah, they're same things, man. They're four. What? Like Saven being twelve, like what the hell is going on? And I definitely feel—I guess like the primary thing I feel is like how did thirteen or fourteen years go by? Like I remember when they were born, like and I I just can't believe that this many years have gone by. Like I remember being thirteen or fourteen years old. I don't remember being like. You know, five or six, right? But like I distinctly remember these times, and so I was thinking about you, and I'm like, damn! Like I look at Zeke, I see Zeke like on Instagram. I see like his you know basketball highlights, and like he's a dude, you know? And and it even for me, it went fast for him.

Why do our professionals' careers feel much slower? Why doesn't anyone say, Dan, that was a fast career? I'm not going to say professional lives are harder because parenting is definitely not easy, but maybe it's the seasonality of schools and you go away for the summer and you come back and it's a new year and they're a little older, a little taller, and a little more mature. And, we don't have that in our business lives.

I wonder about the overlap, Shane. This is what I guess is I think about When our— when, at least for us, like, when our kids were little and we're like starting a family, and again, it's really hard, right? You have multiple kids.

Yeah.

In some level of survival. It's like baby and preschool, you know? Yeah. And you literally are just trying to like survive a day. And alongside it, like, at least, you know, again, like professionally, you're like trying to like grind out a career that is like really hard and demands like A ton of sacrifice and focus is this mindset of like, just get through a day, just get through a day, just get through a day. And then, Ravi, like, I think middle school is when it all like flipped and it flipped fast because your kids go from being these, like, even just looking at them, they look young, you think it's going to last forever. Then middle school happens and like puberty kicks in and it's like things change. And I think from, you know, from a parenting standpoint, And this is the scary part, is like you're already on the descent, right? Like you've summited at that point and like now you're like the sand, like it's running out the other way. You're like counting down the years left, right? Like all of a sudden it's like, wow, I only have 4 years left with my kid in the house.

Yeah.

Right? Like parenting does go on. It's not like fatherhood stops, but like, you know, like that idea of as they march towards senior year and turning 18 and, and, and potentially moving outta the house forever, right? Like that all of a sudden, like that just happened real fast for me. And there's this idea, There's almost this guilt that I didn't appreciate the treading water days when you're just trying to keep your head above water and survive and guilty for having that kind of mindset. And all of a sudden now it's like—

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Dude, you know what I think, Shane? Part of it is I think that at least for me, like when our kids were young, like they were so close together and they were like, it just felt like we were like doing a lot of like taking care of them. And it was like very physical. Like I remember like lifting them a lot and like, you what I'm saying? Like all this. And then at some point, they just like kind of become like more independent, of course. And I think part of the reason it seems to go fast is like, the part where they're like independent, it's really fun. Like, it's like, you know, like, Avni was out of town a few weekends ago. And, you know, somebody was like, oh, like, you know, did you have anybody like helping you with the kids? I'm like, Guys, like, if it's me and the 3 kids, like, it's like not dissimilar from like me hanging out with like my friends. Like, truly, I don't actually— like, think about how old they are. Like, there's nothing— what did we do? We like hung out. We like went and, you know, I don't know, we like watched some TV. We didn't play golf. I like ordered DoorDash.

I was just gonna say, we know you got Instagram and DoorDash on speed dial, so, you know, obviously.

Obviously ordered some Instacart, some DoorDash. But like, it really is like, it was actually not dissimilar if like the 3 of us were hanging out with like me and the 3 of them. Like it was just kind of like, all right, cool. Like what sports do you want to watch? Do you want to go do some sports? Do you want to go? Should we eat something? And I was laughing. I was like, man, like think about how different this was than 10 years ago. If it was like, I'm gonna go out of town. I'm like, I'm gonna be with the 3 of them by myself. You know, like it just would have been so different. So I think part of the reason it goes fast, Shane, maybe is like it becomes a little bit more fun? Like in the beginning it was like type 2 fun, you know, like it's fun but it's like different, you know. But like, do you think that there becomes like a little less friction?

The friction is different, right? Little people, little problems. Big, big problems. Big people, big problems. So the friction never really— it's just a different kind of friction, you know. The, the friction that— and the stresses that I have with an 18-year-old are a little different And a half with a 12-year-old, right? So they're there. They're still there. They're just different.

Do you think Zeke, like, well, no, I mean, no, nobody when they're 17, 18, like, thinks it's gone fast. Like, they just, that's just their life. Like, they're, you know, I don't know. When I was growing up, I didn't think it went fast.

You're going to live forever when you're, you know, young. Yeah. How are you going to handle, I mean, Shane, we kind of know you've told us your story a little bit, obviously through the recruiting process and how dialed in you were. Do you see any similarities in how Zeke's like handled this? How, and your role, like, are you taking kind of the hands off?

Well, first of all, you know, we could do a whole show on the whole college process, which is very different than when I went through. And the things that these kids have to handicap and they have to figure out, much different. It was pretty straightforward with me. I had my choice of schools. I had 5 schools. I was gonna go to one. I was gonna have a great career. But, you know, with money now and revenue share and transfer portal, there's just so much more to take in. And so—

You can't even forecast a roster, right? Like, I'm assuming you, when you went to Duke, you're like, I knew where the players in my position were, right? And the only other kids coming in are freshmen.

Yeah. It's just day to day. It's year to year. I mean, it's really year to year. And that breaks my heart because when I signed up, I signed up for a tour of duty. And, you know, if things went horribly wrong, you had the option to transfer. But even back then, it was super penal to transfer. You had to sit out a year, right? So it's like, I better get this decision right. Okay. And today that is not the mindset. It's, huh, where's a, where's a tenable place I can go for a year? If it doesn't work out, Eh, I can find a new place, right? And so, you know, which I don't hope for my son. And I have tried to impress on him, look, some of my best friends are the guys that play basketball 4 years. We had our 25th reunion. It was unbelievable. We'll never see that again. Like, and I think he gets that philosophically, but that is not even in high school. That's not the case, right?

Yeah, that's crazy.

You're in high school. So, Just in general, these young people think much more transactionally, much more short-term. And, but I think my son has got a good head on his shoulders. He sees the value of college, the value of teammates, the value of network, the value of the education. That'll be a big thing about his decision, but it's very different. So I feel like a dinosaur. Look, I've done it at the highest level. I've seen everything in the game. I haven't seen this.

So Shane, can I tell you something? Like something that I think is like incredible about the way just like life works, is if you really were to like draw up, like, if you think about being able to like help your son, and it's like, okay, he wants to play basketball. Okay, cool. Like, I was a professional basketball player. You know what I'm saying? Like, you would think that of all the things that you would be able to be like solid overlap on helping him, it would be that, right? It's like, okay, the dream that you wanted to achieve, like I did it. And the league is still the same technically, you know what I'm saying? The thing he's trying to go do, the fact that life ends up being where as a dad, your experience has a lot of overlap, but not 100% overlap, even on that tells you that's fucking crazy. Because all you want is to be able to actually help. And I don't know, it's like the game design of life is very good. The fact that it actually made it where it's complicated even for you, You know, they made it interesting.

Yes. Yes. And again, for him, it's about process. The process is different. The mentality has never changed. Right. You know, Alex, you know, the things you tell your son as a quarterback trying to figure it out, it's preparation. It's enthusiasm. It's all the sort of the intangible things that'll never change. And I think that's evergreen advice, the process and how it all comes to fruition and how it's used may be different. But I've tried as a dad and as his coach, tried to instill mentality still matters and all the steps within a very different process is the most important thing.

If you don't mind me asking, when does he have to make a decision? Like, when is actual signing day? Is it after the high school season?

Yeah, he hopes to commit Before the school year. He's got 4 really good schools that he's going to visit in the fall. And, if he feels great about them, hope to get that decision made before the season so he can just enjoy his senior year, which I did.

Yeah.

And, it was awesome. And, it doesn't mean you can just slack off and be a bum, but you have a spot and continue to work towards that goal. And so, that's kind of the plan, which is rare. Most kids are now told to wait until April.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, because college coaches, they don't know what their roster looks like. Yeah. Right. They go through an entire season and then the transfer portal opens and all these coaches, you know, literally the night their season ends in college basketball, and I'm sure it's the same for college football, you were on the phone recruiting your own kids saying, hey, you should stay. You should stay another year. And the kids already have their NIL figures. Hey, I need a raise. I need 10% more. And no one asks for less. No one asks for the same. Everybody asks for more. And so trying to figure out, okay, who do I want to come back? Who am I okay leaving? What am I giving these guys? So like, they don't even know what their roster looks like, much less do I have a place for these high school freshmen? And so a vast majority of high school seniors that are graduating this year, they won't be settled until April or, or, or May of their senior year, which is— which would drive me crazy.

Yeah, I was just gonna say, like, all the unknown, all the moving parts, just like increased anxiety. Like, you can imagine, just— you don't know where you're gonna go, you don't even know if you're gonna have a spot. All that unknown, just like— it's just anxiety and worry, you know?

Yeah. But you know what's interesting, Alex? Like, if you just kind of take— if you Kind of like take a step back away from sports just for a minute, right? I was thinking about what Shane said on like the prep, the mentality versus like the, you know, maybe the tactics of this like recruiting process, right? And so the mentality is the same, the tactics are totally different. Okay, cool. I think that like is basically true for most things that we try to teach the kids. Like what we want is for them to like have a good professional life, you know what I'm saying? And like get them a good job and all this stuff. But like, we don't know what the fuck to tell them tactically to make that happen. Like, what you can tell them is like, hey, look, you need to be smart, you need to be good at solving problems, you need to be good at being somebody people want to be around or follow. So that's actually interesting. The thing that I was thinking about, though, on the like anxiety or worry is like, honestly, maybe a lot of what we have to teach them is also like, look, there's going to be a lot of uncertainty in your life. And you got to like be good at dealing with that. And you have to be good at, you know what I'm saying? You have to like, you can't like eliminate the uncertainty. I actually think a lot of what like our, what like my extended family, like what my grandfather wanted for our family, was basically like he had like a really uncertain life. And most of what he wanted, I think, was like, if you guys just all go into medicine, basically, you can like eliminate this uncertainty, right?

Yeah.

And I think now it's funny. It's like, I don't know, what would I tell my kids if I want to like eliminate uncertainty in their life professionally? I don't know what to tell them. You know, like, I actually, it's much more like you have to be somebody who can deal with uncertainty. I I don't have a path for you that eliminates or reduces it anymore.

But I mean, several things there, right? These are life mindset-focused things we're talking about, distraction, right? Those aren't things that you typically ever got taught from an education.

I don't think so. No.

But I mean, I certainly think you go through adversity as a kid and there's learning lessons and your parents help you through them, right? always going to be things outside of your control, all these things. But getting comfortable with uncertainty is hard, right? Like, I mean, how do you teach that? How do you—

I don't know.

It's a tough lesson to, you know, do you think your kids probably have pressure to become doctors or lawyers?

No, not specific to like any particular profession, but I'm sure that my kids feel like expectations to like Do well, you know what I'm saying? I think that they definitely feel that. I would say right now, I think it's. I yeah, they don't they don't show outward effects of feeling pressure right now. You know what I'm saying? Like each of them looks like generally more. They they they they come across as somewhat relaxed. But I definitely they are aware that we have high expectations for them. I am very confident of that. I think that what I would tell you, Alex, is I wish that I knew more about what to tell them of like, just do this and it'll all be cool. And the only thing is, that's why I kind of leaned in when Shane talked about the mentality point. I find myself, the things that I feel most confident telling them are much more mentality-oriented and principles and abstractions than they are like, oh, just do this. It's like, no, you got to be somebody who works hard. You got to be somebody who You got to be somebody who's good at solving ambiguous problems, and you need to be somebody that other people want to solve problems with. And you got to be willing to work hard at something in order to find luck at it. You know what I'm saying? You got to continuously do it. But those are pretty general things as opposed to, do you want to do this? Do you want to do that?

But Ravi, are you more concerned With your kids handling your expectations and Avni's expectations or external expectations? Look, you're a big dog in Silicon Valley. All right? You go to every corner, they know who Ravi Gupta is and they know he's doing something big now and he's had success. Like, you're a big cheese. So, by the time your kids are seniors, Right? There's going to be an expectation. Oh, you know, hey, what's, what's, what's, what are the Gupta boys doing? You know, how are they doing? Where, where, where are they going to school? Right? If you haven't felt that, I, you're going to feel it. And so like, it's a weird thing, right? I mean, every time your son steps on the football field, Alex, you know, does he know that people are like, oh, let's see what Smith does?

For sure. Without a doubt.

Yeah. So, you know, honestly, guys, and like, Shane, you know, that's very nice of you to say. I really mean that. But like, at the moment, no, I don't feel that. I think that you guys feel it so much differently than I think about because yours is so public and so specific. You know what I'm saying? Of like playing in the NBA, playing in the NFL. Like, I don't know, around here, like a lot of people like work in, you know what I'm saying? Good jobs. And so I don't think about that. So to answer your question, I think that our kids today feel much more of mine and Avni's expectations than they do anyone else's. Who knows if that will change, but at the moment, I don't think they observe a lot of expectations from the outside world. I think that's frankly a gift compared to— well, actually, maybe that's not true. We've talked about this. Maybe the gift is actually having a lot of expectations from a lot of people because you just learn that you've got to deal with it. But my kids have not had to deal with that yet.

I don't know if one's better than the other, to be honest with you. Right. I didn't have any expectations growing up. I don't have, I didn't, I didn't have the expectations that my kids have. And look, it's, it's, it's, hey, your dad went to Duke. Where are you going? Right. And, and so, by all metrics, you know, been relatively successful compared to where I came from. So the expectation is, hey, keep, you know, keep it going. And, you know, again, that goes back to the mentality, Alex, where it's just like, hey, man, you gotta run your own race. Everyone's race is different and everyone's speed is different. And do not try to compete with the person next to you, even though that might be the reality. You gotta do what's best for you and run your race.

For sure. And Ravi, do you feel like there's pressure? Okay, so like, I think there's this American dream of always like your kids outperforming you, right? Like we are always as a family like up into the right, right? And you obviously want your kids to have a better life than you did on all, in all areas. I'm not just saying professionally, but like you got like the bar, the bar is set pretty high.

Yeah.

For your kids' parents.

Yeah.

You know, uncles and aunts and, right? Like it, you know what I'm saying? Do you feel like that's, I guess what I'm asking this expert.

Yeah. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Now, now I get what you're saying.

From an education, from a professionalism, right? These are roles, again, doctors, operators, venture capital partners, right? Like there, there's a level of like a That comes with these?

I think the specific thing, Alex, that Adi and I have talked about is we are trying to make sure the scoreboard that they measure themselves on is not money.

Yeah.

Which is like, you should continue and do well. You do need to work hard. You do need to do a good job in whatever it is you choose to do. We want you to be someone who cares about being excellent. What we are trying to do is have that not translate as to like, that means you need to have a job that earns you this much money relative to somebody else. Like, you know, whatever. Like, I think what we're— and I don't know how successful we are or aren't truly. But the thing that I think about on what you said is I do like the idea of like them feeling like they've been given a lot of opportunity and that they got to go do a good job with it. But I don't care like how that actually manifests as like, Oh, did you get a job as a, I don't know, venture capitalist? Did you get a job in something that pays you a lot? I want them to just actually be good at what they're doing and to take pride in it. And so that is a weird line, and I don't know exactly how we're going to walk it, but I think we're trying to make it where it's sort of like, we expect you to work hard, Right? And we expect you to care about what it is you're doing, but not so much like that means you need to become a partner at Goldman Sachs or something.

What do they— do you, if you don't mind me asking, do they write like when it's like, hey, what do you want to be when you grow up? You know, people always ask you that, right? And it obviously changes a thousand times.

Yeah, of course. No, they, you know, like they, they, they don't, they, they have no, there's no discernible pattern when they, because I'll ask sometimes too.

No, no, that's all I want to hear.

It's a great question, but I ask them sometimes too, like, hey, is there something you like? Occasionally, they'll be like, hey, Dad, your job seems cool, but they don't really know anything right now. I think also, dude, remember, we've homeschooled them. And so I think on that, their worlds, they have a lot of friends, but their worlds are small right now. And so I'm curious, what happens when they go to high school and then they see different influences or whatever? I would say that On this dimension, you know, Alex, if you ask me something I'm worried about, I'm actually in a vacuum. I was more worried that our kids would be very anxious than I would that they wouldn't be successful. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, the thing I was actually worried about a few years ago was like, I don't know, growing up in the Bay with, you know, high expectations parents. I was actually much more concerned that they would be like kind of anxious, which is very anxious kids. So I'm very relieved right now that that is not the problem that we seem to have. We have many problems, whatever, but they don't today present as constantly worried about stuff. And I was actually much more concerned about that than, oh, they wouldn't work hard. And so at the moment, I feel a little relief that that's not the problem that we seem to be dealing with. Yeah, it's amazing.

Which again, I think does go back to what you talk about solving for as a parent, right? It's dealing with uncertainty, right? Certainly a ton of anxiety comes from the unknown.

Yeah. And I think to be fair, their world is small. I think that at the moment, it's also that they've been around and we'll see how they do in different settings. But at the moment, that's not their biggest problem.

And when did that change, Ravi, you think? When does it go from, hey, let's keep these young people alive and safe to, okay, hey, now let's try to teach fulfillment, right? Like, when did we learn that? You know, like, it's a pretty different mentality as a parent. Survival to, yeah, we want them to be healthy and safe and obviously and learn to work hard. But now we're talking about like self-actualization here.

Well, I mean, Shane, you're the only one who like has a kid that's like kind of gone through high school. I mean, I know Hudson— Hudson's a rising sophomore, rising junior, Alex?

Just started sophomore year. So he's 15. We're still like a ways from driving, right? There's like some of these big kind of milestones.

It feels like, Shane, high school like is like a, you know, like at some point, and then I presume college is it. But like, I don't know, you tell me like, Yeah. What is it for you? Like, when was it different with Zeke?

I would say it got real and got different. I know it sounds weird, but when he got his license.

Okay. And is that because of like the safety?

When he could physically leave the house. Yeah. And like go out into the world. Okay. When you're, you know, when you're under 16, you know, we're the, we're the drivers, right? We're the chauffeurs. And we know exactly where they are because we're picking them up, we're dropping them off. right? They're not wandering the streets, right? So all of a sudden, it's a different type of safety you're worried about when they have their driver's license. But I think, you know, more philosophically, it's like, okay, they're out in the world.

Yeah.

Okay. So like, how are you making your mark in the world now that you're out there? You can come and you can go anytime you want. Okay. What are you doing when you're out there? Right? And so I think for me and for Heidi, we started to think, okay, what's this kid about? Is he treating people the right way? Is he helping people? Is he working hard in all the hours, all the times that he's outside of school? He's out on the streets, right? So, you still will never forget about safety and health, but it's like, hey, how are we living? How are we living here? What are we doing here?

Okay, Shane, I have a question for you. That to me makes a lot of sense as a demarcation point. The license, it feels different. Okay. So question for you guys. Are you guys Life360 people? Do you know what that is?

Yes.

Is this where you track your kids?

Yeah. Do you guys do that?

We— no, of course not.

No. No.

Our kid Hudson has to share his location. Yeah.

Okay. So, but we're not— again, our kids are younger. Like, so it's not a philosophical point. It's genuinely like, you guys have older kids? Like, So do you think that that— so obviously, I mean, there's no way your location was being tracked when you were kids. Like, that's not a thing. Shane, I think about some of the things that you told me about that, you know, you and Jeremy were doing when you were kids, even when you were younger, like, you know, the, like the Garbage Pail Kids story you guys tell us, like, you know, do you think that that, like, what role or implication do you think that has of like actually knowing where they are at all times? Because I was thinking about, like, my parents, like, you know, your parents, you know, your parents, they had no— they didn't know where we were. There weren't phones. Like, they didn't even— if you were lying, you were lying. Today, you know, you do have some knowledge that's different than our parents. Like, does that matter? Or you think it—

I think it depends on how you handle it, right? Because I do think there was this— I don't know about you guys, like, at some point, though, when I was younger, right? Like middle school going into high school. I don't know, our parents all grew up in a different age than us, than when we were coming up, right? And so sometimes though, I always felt like they couldn't identify with the things that I was dealing with on a social level, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Probably totally false, but they're also— so there wasn't necessarily a ton of— there was some transparency, but not a ton. Whereas like, so this is just an example. Hudson goes to the Luke Bryan concert at Shoreline, right? And he doesn't even listen to Luke Bryan, but he's just going because all these kids are going from his high school, right? And so they all go. It's basically this like party at Shoreline. Certainly there's, there'll be opportunities to partake in, you know, stuff there. But like, again, like he, he can't drive, so he's, we, we've gotta organize a ride with him and his buddies. there and back, right? Like, he's got his phone on him, right? And again, shared location. So at all times, you like know where he is. He can't like lie to you, you know?

But to your point, he can still do whatever he wants at the concert. Yeah.

But I guess also, as a parent, there's like a responsibility to like, not be ignorant about what the hell's going on, right? And like, have real— try to have real conversations with your kid. So that to Shane's point, like when he's there, right? Like, I hope I guess like that he's going to make his own decisions, but obviously that, that he can talk to us about that stuff, right? Like, I hope, right? And it's not 100% for sure. I mean, I know that for a fact, right? Like, I guess you try to break that down a little bit. Like, I'm hopeful that could it be better? Does it make me a better parent?

Are you a fearmonger, Alex, or are you more of a rational teacher? I was scared shitless from my parents. So, I was straight and narrow because I did not want to face my dad's wrath. And, it worked out for me pretty good. So, I've been through the fear school and it turned out okay. So, are you a fearmonger or are you a rational relater?

I grew up in a similar household to you. I walked the line. There was a healthy level of fear, I would call it, Right, of consequences. And it definitely, like, you know, again, like, I toed the line. And, uh, so yeah, I don't know.

Your dad was the principal.

Yeah.

I mean, so I also feel like that's a unique experience in that way of, like, the, the fear of the line. You had, like, double fear, I feel like, don't you think? Like, it's just like the home fear as well as, like, you can't, like, be the principal's son who's a screw-up.

For sure.

I guess on that note also, and I guess this maybe explains what I Just said, he was— my dad was my principal. So he did, like, once I got to high school and I was at his school, like, he obviously very well understood all the kids, the guys I hung out with, the people I hung out with, anything, social life. If I had a girlfriend, like teachers, like, obviously he was getting a ton of data on me and could observe me pretty closely, right? So like, then when I got to high school, my dad and I got, like, obviously spent so much time together.

Yeah.

Right. And got like really close at a time for me going through adolescence and puberty like that was amazing, right? Like it was amazing. And so I guess, yeah, trying to like emulate that. But yeah, Shane, there was definitely fear, right? Like, yes.

What about you, Shane, with Zeke? Are you a fear— or with Zeke and Eloise, are you— what do you— you would seem to be a rational relator. That would— what I would have guessed.

I try to be rational. I try to be rational. But again, like, look, the reason why we have all these things is because we know there's creeps out there. There's creep shows out there. And again, we will never ever stop worrying about our kids' health and safety. Like, you know, my, my in-laws, you know, will, will still like stay up and wait for Heidi to come home, you know, and then like, like fret about her. She's, and she's almost 50 years old for goodness sake. So that never stops, right?

Yeah.

And so, we noticed there's so many creep shows out there. This is the advent of all these devices. But again, yes. So, I've used Life360 and there are just some macro things that you try to hammer home to your kids. I say, look, my parents told me there's nothing good that happens after 2:00 a.m. to a young person. Okay? There's nothing. There's some things that can happen that are good, but those are for adults. Okay? That's not for kids. There's nothing Good after 2 AM, that can happen to kids, right? That's a pretty macro lesson that will never serve you wrong. It'll never serve you wrong if you—

Shane, do you think— I have a point of view that you should have to do a somewhat complicated math problem to unlock your phone after 2 AM and also to use the ATM after 2 AM, even as an adult. That's one of my perspectives. So like, look, what kind of state of mind are you in right now before you open up your phone?

Well, first of all, you should never use the ATM after 2 AM, Ravi. Okay, that's what I'm talking about.

Like, don't use the ATM after 2 AM.

Not good. Not good.

If you're in Vegas and you're just, you know, feeling it, come on.

That's what I was saying.

Did you have a curfew growing up, Shane? And did you put it—

I did not. Again, I was— I didn't drink. I didn't stay up. I didn't—

He was a machine, Alex.

I was. We know.

Man with a plan. And so I never, You know, I never got in trouble ever. So I was always able to borrow the car, my dad's Buick LeSabre, and just cruise around Metro Detroit because I was always going to be home by a reasonable hour.

With a sensible, a sensible plan.

A sensible plan.

I, I, um, I think on the fearmongering or the rational thing, like, yeah, I, um, I don't know what I'll be like. because we haven't had to deal with it yet. I hope I'm a rational relator. I think the thing that's hard, the reason the license thing is such a good demarcation is it's sort of like you are now old enough to make decisions that can impact you for a really long time.

Yeah.

And it's like today, this is what you said, small kids, small problems. Kind of whatever you do when you're younger, there's not really going to be long-term implications of it. You'd have to do something really fucked up to get to long-term implication when you're 13 or 12 years old. When you're 16, 17, it's sort of like, look, you could do some stuff that might affect you for a while. So you got to be smart about those kinds of things. Yeah. I think the interesting thing I was thinking, the reason I was asking about the tracking is, I think I've mentioned this to you guys before, but my dad told me somewhat recently He's like, you don't have enough things to worry about. And as a result, you put too many worries on like thinking about the kids. And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, like when we were— when you guys were growing up, he's like, I like was worried about like losing my job. I was worried about like us not having enough. We had like a lot of like family that we were thinking about and taking care of. And he's sort of like, so you guys were like a very important part of our life, but you weren't the only thing. That like was like, you know, center of the plate. And so he's like, as a result, like you just like, you, you just can't worry about everything. He's like, you, because like, you're not today worried about like losing your job, right? And you don't have like as many like other, you know, obligations other than like your family and your friends, he's sort of like, a lot of your effort goes into thinking about the kids. He's like, and so as a result, you like think about things more than like we did just because of like number of like hours in the day. And I actually thought that was like correct. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't mean that I should do something differently. But it was like, you know, interesting. He's sort of like, I couldn't, because I asked him, I was like, when I like did some dumb shit, like, how much did it bother you? He's like, look, it definitely bothered me. He's like, but like, it bothered me amongst other things that were bothering me. It wasn't like, all of my brainpower. And I was thinking about Shane, you've talked about how you've grown up, your parents had other things on their minds other than you. You happened to also be not getting in trouble, but I don't know, I thought that was interesting. I don't know how that is for everyone, but I thought that was accurate for me of like, oh, part of my job is to not think so much about the kids.

Does that fit with your perspective of your childhood household?

Fuck no.

And also, no, I'm saying like, no, no. Did you feel like in the sense of like when you were a kid growing up in your house, did it feel like, yeah, like, listen, my parents have their stuff going on. I have external family and I'm just, I just fit into this.

No.

My role.

Yeah.

And also, okay, now to your role as a parent in your household from a standpoint of, and I guess I'm thinking about this like success. Professional success has put us at a point where we have more mind space to be worrying about our kids' crap.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So Alex, the reason I say no, no, no, I felt like my parents were like, they were not aloof. They were not up in the clouds worrying about other things. I felt like I was very important. You know what I'm saying? In good ways and in bad ways. The good ways are I got attention. The bad ways are I got attention. You know what I'm saying? They weren't like, hey, what was your GPA this year? They were like, hey, what are we doing? How are we doing in class? They were involved. Now, on the flip side, they never came to a practice. They didn't even come to a lot of the games. I didn't even think about it. Whereas like, I'm, you know, we're like every game, you know, like I'm helping coach. I, you know, I don't go to a lot of the practices, but I go to some, like, I mean, it's just, it's just so different, you know, in terms of like involvement there. But to your point, like, I felt like they were there. And my kids definitely feel like I'm there. You know what I'm saying? Like, they do not, they're not like, oh, you know, dad's like doing these other things. Like, they're like, dad has work.

Yeah.

And Dad has us. They do not observe there being other things that we have going on. But yeah, it's funny because when my dad said that, I was surprised, but then I was like, that makes sense. There were these concerns that I was not aware of that they had, and they did do a good job of shielding me. I wasn't aware that my parents were worried about money stuff. That was not something that— It wasn't as profound, Shane, as like some of the stories you've told where like it was like more like you were aware of your family not having as much. Like whatever concerns my parents had, it was not— it never came to me.

Ravi, do you, do you like that? Do you like that you worry about the kids and your work? Do you wish you had other outlets? No. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Do you wish you could worry about the kids more? Like, like, do you like that ratio? Like, no one wants more worries. Okay, I'm not saying that. But like, is that— like, does that strike you at all? It's like, you know, maybe I do worry about my kids too much.

Yeah, I think— well, so I'll answer it in a couple of ways. I think I generally am like a somewhat low-stress person, relatively speaking. Like, I remember one time, Avni and I were going for a walk. And I guess I was quiet. And she was like, is everything okay at work? And I'm like, Yeah, what do you mean? And she's like, well, you haven't like said anything for the last like 5 minutes. And what I was actually thinking about was each of my tee shots the day before as to which, how many fairways I'd hit. Like, that was the thing I was thinking about. And so she's like, I told her and she was like, I'm not going to ask you about your bullshit anymore. Like, like, you idiot. And so like, I don't think that like, I don't think I carry like a ton of stress. So I think that's probably good. I'm happy about that. Um, Shane, I do think that, and I like, I, you know, I'm like a main thing person. Like the kids to me are the main thing. Like I'm glad that I think about it. I think that you have correctly pointed out as my friend that I probably like, it's going to be hard for me when they're not like around as much as they are because I've like put a lot of myself in like them, you know? And so I think that's going to be an adjustment. for us when they're not homeschooled. I think it'll be a harder transition for me when my kids go to high school than a lot of people, and it'll be a hard transition for me when they go to college because we've had a lot of it. But today, I wouldn't change anything. I actually found my dad's thing more helpful as an explanation than as a reason to change behavior. But I do think that I think it would be fair to say I probably worry about them more than is useful, you know, um, but like, I wouldn't really change it. I like thinking about their shit.

Shane, I think about this all the time. All the time. Like exactly kind of what your question just was.

That what? You worry about, you worry too much that you want to know what's going on?

No, no, in the sense of like, is it good for my kids?

I don't worry. I don't think about it from my perspective. Like I could, again, like I could give a crap. I worry about it like, how is it affecting my kids?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That I agree with. Yeah.

Us parents, like, again, like, do they feel that on top of them, right? Like, um, the household I grew up, again, like, I'm the third of 4 kids. Both my parents worked my entire life, um, my entire childhood. Like, I definitely felt like the world didn't revolve around me growing up. Like, and again, I was just lucky to be a part. Like, again, this family had a lot going on and, right, like, my, my place in it. With that being said, obviously, again, my dad was my principal, so they're also— Ravi, there was a balance, right? Like expectations were set for what, like, for me, um, but I didn't feel, uh, like claustrophobic at all. Like my— that my parents were—

What the phenomenon that's gonna— it's gonna come to both you guys that I'm going through now is like, you guys are both awesome dads. And I'm sure you're sensitive that you're probably saying too much. And I've had moments recently with both my kids who are older, who are 18 and 15. And we were playing a game, a card game, and Zeke beat me. And I'm throwing a fit. I'm like, I can't believe this. What is this? And Zeke looked at me and said, Dad, a wise man once said, There's only winning and learning, which is what I say like every day, right? I've said it like every day for like the last 10 years. And I'm like, you're right. You're right.

Yeah.

So the phenomenon is that all these things are being ingrained in your kids. And one day it's going to come out and you're going to be like, aha, they were listening. And like, yes, you know? So like whether we are overthinking it now or underthinking it, like it is being ingrained in who they are and they're going to be reflections of both of you, right?

In very different ways.

And it comes out as they start to get more independent. And that's the cool part. And then you're like, oh man, like I'm doing something right.

I'm doing something right.

Right. And so it's, it's, it's, it's one of those things. You don't know where you are in the process. You know, you know, you're there and you think you're doing the right thing. And as they get older and start to spread their wings and they start reciting your corny, you know, fortune cookie wisdom. It's like, ah, okay, they're gonna be okay. They're gonna be okay.

I think, Shane, that to me is a cool one of like, because Zeke, 18. I mean, you know, like you have done a lot of, you know, foundation laying now. Right. And so, you know, and I think, you know, that, that, that is definitely cool.

And you're gonna look back, you're gonna look back and be like, I, yeah, I stressed about a lot of things I probably shouldn't have. That's my takeaway.

Like, I want to ask you guys, like— Oh, that's— everybody with any wisdom is like, oh man, like, dude, even look back now. I mean, Alex, I don't know. Like, if you look back 5, 6 years and you think about what you were thinking about for the kids, I'm sure you're like, why did I care about that? Like, I definitely feel that for our kids. Like, some of the things that I used to think about with the kids, they're just like irrelevant a few years later.

For sure. I think about it both ways though, because it's like, okay, well, football season's coming up and I'm going to start traveling a little bit. Right? Like here on the weekends. So there are things I'm gonna miss, some like soccer games, I'm gonna miss some kid stuff. And like, then again, and it's like the other way, Shane, right? Like again, it's like guilt jumps on you cuz you're like, oh God, I haven't gone to every single thing.

Yeah.

Mind you, like I'm here, like, you know, again, I get back Sunday night and like until Saturday morning the next week, like I've got, I'm here, I'm in it, right? Like everything, driving, school activities, but There's like, it flips on you. You're like, oh God, I'm missing some things. And then you like think back to like our childhood and I'm the same way, right? Like my parents, they didn't come to absolutely every single thing, you know?

No. And like, and it was kind of crazy to like think that they would, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah. And if you go to like things around here, sometimes there's like guilt if both parents aren't at every single thing.

Oh yeah. No, no. People, right?

Like, which is insane.

Yeah. I, so like it flips both ways, Shane.

Does that make sense? Right? Like, as a parent, I feel like then I'm, you know.

Shane, is Eloise a rising junior or rising sophomore? Rising sophomore. Okay. And then is it different with the girl?

Um, my daughter has a much, you know, I guess, verbose relationship with, with her mother than she does her, her dad. Okay. And so there's a lot of, you know, and, you know, my, my daughter needs to emote a lot more than Zeke. You know, it's pulling, it's pulling the emotion out of, out of my son and it's tempering and, you know, calming the emotion in my daughter. Not, not, not to be too— I'm not trying to be stereotypical here.

No, no, we're not talking about in general. We're talking about your 2 children.

I also fascinated by that dynamic, right? I think inherently when you're a dad and you have a son, there's like this There's some like, not a pressure, but like, did I gotta show, like, to get, get him ready to be a man in the real world? Whereas like, that's not necessarily potentially your role with your daughter, right? Like, that maybe falls in line more with Heidi. And so your role is different, you know, not necessarily like a good cop, bad cop type of thing, but—

My daughter is, she's gonna be a senator. So I'm like, I don't worry about her like at all. It's again, it's pulling. It's, you know, Zeke is, he's doing great. I'm proud of him. I'm proud of both my kids, you know, but the dynamic is different. It's just different. Older kid, younger kid, right? You know, I was thinking about when you have your first kid and remember how careful you were bringing that baby home and, you know, you got the the, uh, for the new parents out there, you know, you're, you're expecting your first one and you're, you're triple-checking the, the car seat in the car to make sure it's secure. And it's just like, oh, a little— you're freaking out over every little thing. And we had a friend, uh, after we had our— after we had Zeke, um, told us very— something that Heidi and I said for a lot of years. And so they said it's hard to kill a kid, okay? Kids are really resilient. Like, really. Like, you can— like, not saying you should drop them, but like—

Yeah.

If they, they knock their head across the crib, Like, they're going to be okay.

They're very, very hardy, right? And that's a lesson that makes way more sense with kid number 2. I don't know if it was for you. I mean, you had 1 and 2 at the same time, but like, you know, I'm sure you treated Savin like, you know, much different than you did the boys.

Of course.

And so just the dynamic of older sibling, younger sibling is totally different. So I think that I have been, Way, again, way calmer with Eloise because I've seen, okay, Zeke's starting to figure it out. They've been listening. I don't have to stress as much. And my daughter, she's a killer. And so I'm not worried about her.

Do you think that was the same at every stage, Shane?

Yes.

Not just as an infant, right? It's like every kind of—

Yep. Yep. 100%. 100%.

Yeah. I think birth order is actually way more important than people Generally give credit to, you know.

Yeah, you don't grow up in the same household.

This idea that like yeah, I like that. Yeah, you don't. Yeah, I think Alex. I think that's really yeah. That's like super well said. You know, you think you grow up in the same household, but you don't because like it is it is super different. Um, you know, Shane, I can like imagine Zeke saying that to you after the card game. You know, Dad. I'm like shut up, asshole.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. When you get when you get old enough to call your son, you know, kid. card kid an asshole, okay, you know you've done something right, right?

Totally. I've decided the word that I'm allowed to use to refer to their— to that kind of behavior is jackass. That feels like something— it feels like I'm not being rude, you know what I'm saying? I'm like, you're being a complete jackass right now, but like in a good way, you know? That it's always when they throw my words back at me.

What's the Baguette family card game, by the way?

Oh yeah, we're a big gin family. Okay, all right. Love gin, love gin. No bourré, Shane? No, no, no. I told you I haven't figured out how to win that. Bank? You guys don't play bank? Nope, no, no, no. Wait, did you say bank? Yeah, bank.

Oh, Alex, by the way, by the way, speaking of bank, we sent, you know, the—

oh, I had to move. Okay, I had to say, like, listen, I actually had— this is really— Shane, you might be able to appreciate this. Like, sometimes you book these speaking things, like sometimes they reach out like literally like 10 months in advance. You're like, this is insane. Like, I don't— you guys know me, like I'm just trying to focus on my calendar for the next couple weeks, let alone 10 months.

I mean, and you can barely manage that.

Yeah, totally. So I had said yes to this thing that then when you like sent me those dates, I actually like went over, like I went up to him and I literally had like booked something like on the, in like literally on the 8th. And so I had to scramble and move it.

Luckily, when I have to tell you, Shane, this guy, I mean, we, we, you know, the Commissioner Circle comes out, you're in the first round of invitations, like in like the, you know, officially. Okay. And I mean, no response, right? I mean, we were offended. We, we were offended.

As you should have been. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to know that you'll be there. It's no different than our sons. One day he's going to, you know, come totally correct in all, you know, all the lessons we've tried to teach him, Ravi, are going to come to fruition. I don't know. He was listening. He was listening.

You know, I agree with that, Shane. He's the younger sibling of the 3 of us. And I think it's good to know that there might be hope for him still. You know, I had to move a paid gig so that I could go lose money in bank and golf.

Dollar bill, there's no sympathy. There's no sympathy dollar bill.

I will tell you, Shane, that when you told me about Bure, and you're kind of like, listen, man, like, you don't want to, you don't want to go there effectively. And then we played last year in Georgia. And the first night I promptly lose $500 on Bure. And in effectively like an out of control fashion. Like, it's one thing you lose a couple hundred dollars and you kind of just think, oh, I sat down with the intent of like, if I lose it, I lose it. It was kind of one of those where I was like, wait, what? Like, I owe $150? Like, just like kind of that kind of situation. And so it was a humbling, it was a humbling introduction to the game. And it was, it really does kind of poke for our listeners out there, Bourré. Actually, Shane, you should describe what Bourré is, you know, for our listeners.

Bourré is, is, you know, I don't know about today, but when I played, that was the game of choice in every, every NBA team playing, there was a Blu-ray game at the front of the table, and you only sat down there if you were a serious player. Okay? So, don't come with a, you know, don't come with your per diem. Okay? This is like serious stakes. And there are many stories. I'm sure you've read about them in the NBA. There's been some fisticuffs over bad Blu-ray games and debts not being paid. So, this is not for amateurs. And so— introduced Ravi to this game, introduced the Commissioner's Cup to this game last year. I don't play Blu-ray just because it's, again, there's no guides on it. There's no like strategy. There's no like ways to like understand even the odds of what's going on. I've looked, trust me. And so I told Ravi, just be careful. Just be careful. And he's like, you know, and you know, as a wise man once said, there's only winning.

You're only winning and learning. I learned. I learned that night. The problem, just for folks, if you ever want to go try it, one, you can look up on Wikipedia what the game is, this game of tricks, and you can hear exactly how it works. But there's a lot of goading that happens in the game, a lot of goading, and also a lot of responsibility to the rest of the crew, because effectively a hand can end in a draw, in which case the pot just continues. And so it's not just you're trying to win, you also are trying to sometimes extend it so that the next hand can be available for everyone. And I was very susceptible to being goaded, you know, of like, come on, man, like, you know, for the team, like, well, you sit everything out. And so, but when you do that, you take real risk. And I learned, but Shane, I haven't given it up yet. Next year I'm gonna be ready for Bourré. Hopefully we can teach it to Brother Smith here.

Ravi, I fall in the same boat where it's like you go sit down occasionally with like real card players and you might as well have just handed the money at the beginning, right? Like you're throwing over your head and you're like, I know enough to play, but like I don't know the nuance enough. And then I just get my ass kicked.

You're a card player, you're a dice thrower, or you're not. There's only 3 categories, right?

Shane, though, you are less interested. I feel like, I feel like when, when I first got to know you, you were You were more interested in games of chance than you are today. You think that's just—

Because I didn't know you as well. And I always like taking people's money who I don't know more than I like taking people who I do know. And so I know you too well. And so I feel bad. So it's a friendship thing. So you should feel honored that I even—

I appreciate that. I appreciate that very much.

Golf is different. Golf is different because you have a fighting chance, but cards, No, I, um, yeah, yeah, there's no handicap.

There's no net handicap in the card game.

Yes.

You know, I, I will say that, uh, Shane, I think this coming year, is it— it's you and my brother, I think, are the team this year. Yeah. And me and, me and, me and Mr. Park. Okay. And Alex, you were the only time, the only non, non-Commissioner Circle captain. That was a one-time event. That you— and you ended up winning, which is good.