The Real Reason Greatness Lasts - [Glue Guys, Ep. 69]

The day I retired after my 13th year, I let out a big cackle, you know, to the universe and I said, "Ha!

I fooled them. I got them.

The charade worked for 13 years. I have their money. I have their offensive teams. I have their championships and they never found out.

Hahaha!" Something's just been on my mind, at least in my household here with my kids. Obviously, we've been watching the NBA playoffs, which are phenomenal, right? Like, I mean, I love playoff basketball. And obviously, the Golden State Warriors here had a small, very, very short run, you know, but we did get to see Steph come back and play. And then certainly with my oldest son, we've been watching a bunch of the Lakers. Right? And LeBron specifically. And it just kind of hit me, and there's obviously so much talk about it in the media, just these two aging superstars, right? Like two of the greats that certainly we've seen it, especially this year, right? Like, you know, battle some injuries and kind of Father Time in general, right? As they're taking on this next crew of ballers in the NBA. And I just, I find it fascinating. Like I can't, I love watching these guys like seem to battle both of these things, right? And are doing it unbelievably, like, to be honest, right? Like, as old as these guys are, as long as they've been doing it, and you start to look at like LeBron's longevity is insane, right?

Like, what do you think their mindset is? Like, LeBron's my good friend. I know Steph. What do you think they think about? Do they think they have the same thoughts and are as amazed as we are?

I mean, how many people in the world are even built mentally to do this? Right? Like since he's 18 years old, LeBron has been, I mean, just getting after it. Right? Like, and everything he's accomplished at this point, you don't need it. Right? Like sail into the sunset. You're, you know what I'm saying? You've earned enough, lived a good life. And like these guys just still keep bringing it. Right? Like the joy that Steph still plays. Right? Like the knee injury this year and he's still coming back. And I don't know. Like I just, I like, I love watching it. I think it's, fascinating because it is so rare.

Yeah. Shane, I mean, you should, you should talk about it, right? I mean, I think that like, what was the trigger when you knew that you were ready to retire? I think— was it like you didn't enjoy going to the practices? Like, I forget there was like something specific you'd mentioned where it was like, I think it's time to go.

I will never forget really like the second to last year of my career and we just won the championship. All right. So coming off a championship, Going back, I always started my training August 1st to get ready for the season. And I will never forget going to the gym after we won the championship and had a huge, huge, huge victory lap. I didn't want to be there. I sort of wanted to be at the golf course. And you see LeBron working on his swing now during a game and I'm like, "Oh, he's close. He's close. He's close. Not there yet, but he's close." the phrase that came back to me that I learned as a young NBA player, someone told me, you know, the will to play stays strong, the will to prepare to play weakens, right? And so, and that's when I didn't want to retire then. I still wanted to go back-to-back and we were able to do that. But like the next summer, it was the last year of my deal. Like I really knew, I really knew. And I'm glad I did it that way because I enjoyed my last year. Then I was able to be a little more nostalgic and It helped that I watched most of the games from the bench, so I had a lot of time to sit and pontificate and be appreciative of the journey. But, you know, more so than that, like, I respect the game. I respect everything the game of basketball has meant to me and what it's allowed me to do in my life, my career. And I knew the second that I couldn't honor the game and I couldn't honor what it takes to be one of the best in the world. That I was robbing the game. And, you know, it's like a super old school mentality, like the game matters, the game is the most important thing, the game will be around forever and you always have to honor the game. And by me having those feelings of I didn't want to grind, I was disrespecting the game. So that's when I knew it was time to bow out.

Shane, how much do you think career arc and your career arc specifically played into that? Right? Like, obviously the championships at the end, there's like this— I mean, you reach the mountaintop, right? Like, how much do you think that— and, and where you started, right? Like, is—

well, look, again, my, my pro career, I had, I had two goals only in my pro career, okay? It wasn't like to win championships, it wasn't to be all, all defensive team. I had two goals. I wanted to play 10 years, and I wanted to walk away from the game like my hero before they Barry Sanders, like before they kicked me out.

Okay.

So I knew if I could do that and retire on my terms and play 10 years that I like every goal that I wanted to meet in the game probably would have been satisfied. So championships were a bonus. So, you know, all defensive team bonus. And so I was able to do that. And so like I was, I was super okay walking away, but I was 35 years old when I walked away. I wasn't 40 years old, you know, like LeBron is that it's just, it's just crazy. It's just crazy that their dedication and their excellence. This is the crazy part. It's not like they're just out there, you know, some aging hipster, you know, you know, limping up and down the court. They are still some of the best players in the entire league. And they're playing guys literally half their age. Literally.

Yeah. I mean, there's this great clip. I think it's Jabari Smith Jr. comes up to LeBron and he's like, hey, you played against my dad in your first game. LeBron's like, wait, what? And he's like, yeah. And LeBron's like, don't tell me that, man. Now I feel old. But he's playing against guys who he played against their dad and now he's playing against them. And still, he's still focal point of the off— I mean, crazy, right?

He's playing with his son. He's playing with his son. How ridiculous is that?

And getting— Bronny got playoff minutes playing alongside LeBron. I mean, that was crazy, right? Yeah, I mean, Alex, my opinion on this is, I think there's like so many things to be envious of, of you guys getting to be professional athletes, right? Like, truly, like, it's like such like a crazy dream that you guys earn the right to live. The one thing that is something that's hard that you don't envy is like the long— the fact that like it runs out, you know what I'm saying? Like other people's careers go on. And I think one of the things that my— I have no idea, but one of the things that I imagine is interesting for LeBron and Steph to keep going is this desire to have stakes in their life, like real— they both seem to appreciate the fact that they get the chance to compete. Do you see what I'm saying? They both seem to be grateful for the fact that they have that. And Steph talks about that of like, man, it's hard to come back from this knee stuff, but getting to come back and play like, "I know how fleeting this is. I don't take it for granted." You hear these guys say it, and I think that they recognize that they're going to miss, like, having this level of stakes, you know, in their professional life and what they're doing, which is crazy. But I think it's, like, reflective of that appreciation. I'm curious if you guys agree, but, like, that's, like, one observation from the non-athlete seats.

I don't know, Alex, you know, didn't your level of gratitude go up? I mean, obviously you went through quite the episode with your leg, but even like just aging in general, I think you get more nostalgic, more grateful, right? For sure.

Drastically, right? Like, yes. I mean, I had a very similar— I can remember being a rookie. Ravi, you're going to love this. Sitting down with my financial advisor that I just hired because I was 20 years old and had no idea what I was doing. And I remember like setting out goals, Shane, and it was like—

We might digress. We might digress. Yeah.

And it was like, oh my God, if I could just make it 10 years.

Yes.

And in a different way, not like I'm going to be Barry Sanders and retire on, you know, that did maybe this like amazing 10-year run. It was like, can I just hold on to the reins for like 10 years before I get bucked off kind of thing, right? Like that was more of the philosophy. And I also say that because it kind of alludes to where my mindset was, right? Like this is so different, I think, to like going back to like how you enter the league, right? Like again, I always, I've talked about my imposter syndrome getting drafted and it was kind of like, well, how long until everybody figures this out that they made a mistake kind of thing. And so that was kind of my mindset different. Whereas like, I mean, obviously these are very different ends of a spectrum, but like number one pick LeBron, who people had been talking about since 8th grade, I think is like walking in like trying to be the greatest of all time, at least.

Yeah.

Like, you know what I'm saying?

Like, that's an insane thought to have at 18 years old.

Yeah.

But those are very different. You know what I'm saying? Mindsets. I, it took me a long time to like get to be grateful again as a pro to be like, oh my God, this is fleeting. Right? Like not, and how much I enjoy going back to your point, Ravi, like just loving toeing the line, right? Like, yeah, it's hard. Yeah, it could go bad, right? Like, but like, it's, again, it's rare to have the opportunity to kind of toe the line and certainly kind of that man in the arena mentality.

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No. I mean, at this moment, like certainly not because they're so freaking good.

You know, like, I hate, I hate all the haters, you know, you know, LeBron, he's swept by the thunder and that diminishes and all this stuff. No, absolutely not. Like he's in the game. Okay. So if anything, I think it augments his status as GOAT. And I'm on record saying LeBron's the greatest. I'm biased 100%. I know that. Okay, but I'm allowed to be. So you know what?

Yeah, you've— listen, if everyone who plays with LeBron is biased, like, no problem. You know, I'm a Jordan guy, but, but, but you, you know, I never played with Jordan, right?

I'm from Detroit. I can't call Jordan the GOAT, you know, Carolina, just too many strikes against him. All right. So LeBron's my guy, but the fact that he's, he's still doing it, like, before the show, we're talking about, again, the longevity of his greatness. Is what is so unique. You know, it's almost like, like Kareem, like even you can say what you want about Jordan, Jordan would play baseball, but the arc of Jordan's greatness, I wouldn't say, I'd say it started like 6 years in when he finally learned to win, right? No one talks about the first couple of years of his career where he didn't make the playoffs or got swept, you know, by Boston and all of a sudden he learned to win and got Pippen and all of a sudden he's the Jordan that we all know. We seem to forget about that. Okay. LeBron was like doing it immediately, taking that, that bum-ass Cleveland Cavs team to the final. They got swept by the Spurs. That was a bad, bad Cleveland team, right? At 22 years old, right? And he's still dragging people along with them, right?

Have you seen the Doc Rivers take on this, Shane?

No.

What'd he say?

Which I like. He was basically like, Jordan's the greatest player of all time. LeBron will have the greatest career of all time. And that to me was like kind of interesting just because I was like, it does nod to the longevity that he's had. I know you're LeBron's the GOAT all the way around, but I just, even Jordan guys, I'm kind of like, okay, like, you know, the intensity of Jordan's like peak to me is like, you'll hear Steve Kerr be like, we just knew we weren't losing. Like, and like that, that's like a crazy, you know, observation over like a 6 to 8 year period. But I thought that the Doc Rivers thing of like, I completely agree. I think LeBron is enhancing the legacy right now. I mean, and also just like, you can obviously imagine a lot to him to get to like play with his son, like the interview he gave afterwards of like, dude, I was like in the playoffs for a while, like playing with my son on the floor. Like, I'll never forget that. I think that— no, I don't think he's tarnishing it. I think he's enhancing it.

But there are guys that do ruin their legacy by holding on. For the record, you know, I know we're a podcast. I don't want to throw shade at my fellow brothers, but I'm probably going to have some NFL comparisons that I'd be more willing to say. Just guys that hang on and, you know what, hey brother, come come over here and carry this clipboard, you know what I'm saying? Like, come on.

You're saying they're not— those guys aren't respecting the game then, right, Shane? Don't you think? Like, the guys who— you tell me.

I don't think everyone has the same, you know, value system that I had looking at the game. I don't know if you had that, Alex, but, um, sometimes it's just the lack of self-awareness. They don't have people around them telling them, hey, hey, Bub, come over here on the bench here, man. Come on, let's go play golf, man. It's, it's time, right? I mean, I think as much as that more so than I'm disrespecting the game and disrespecting the process.

I got, yeah, I mean, a few things here. I mean, even to go back to the Jordan thing, right? Like peak powers versus career or longevity. Like I don't know. I don't know if I agree with that. Right? Like again, then like the football version of this is certainly Tom, right? Like, I mean, the guy's had like 3 Hall of Fame careers essentially in one, right? Like, I mean, you could even just take his You know, postseason numbers are absurd. Um, and that, and like, that's, I, again, like, it's so unprecedented, but like, you're doing it, right? Like, yeah, there's been amazing MVP QBs that have had an unbelievable season. And then again, like, Pete Powers were amazing, but like, I'm not going to compare them ever to Tom, right? Like, it would just be like blasphemy.

Um, yeah. So Tom, for the record, Tom is the greatest of all time.

Not even close.

Yeah.

Okay. That's what I thought you were saying.

I mean, is there, who are you people to debate it with?

Oh, but like from a skill standpoint, let me just say like Lamar's MVP seasons, Patrick's MVP season, Josh Allen, like again, we can talk about those guys play the position a very different way than Tom played it.

Yeah. Right.

Like, and again, can do things that not a lot of, we've ever seen QBs do from a tool standpoint, but like. It would be insane, right? Like even as amazing as Patrick's career has been to this point, right? Like, I mean, it's kind of almost like, dude, you almost have to do it again to even be in the conversation with Tom.

Yeah. Brady's is crazy.

You know?

So how's this argument different than the LeBron Jordan conversation?

Because I, well, my point is like, I don't know if I like agree with the whole peak powers thing, you know, like that, that trumps it.

I don't know, you know, but I don't know that I can speak rationally about this. I'm not sure.

No, no, me neither.

By the way, I'm not great, but I'm going to flip it because I don't want to get, I don't want to get caught in this very unprofessional and emotional, and I like might start shouting. And so I'm kind of like, I don't know, like we should talk about this.

No, no, no, no, no. On that same note, what's better?

Peak powers or peak longevity? What's better? What's more valuable? What, what deserves more flowers?

Peak?

Well, yeah, it's like, or peak longevity?

You know, I think to your point, like when I think about some of the greatest running backs of all time and like Jim Brown retired, I think he was 29. Barry Sanders, I think was 29, right? And these guys like left and just like had these, like this, this insane flurry of a career playing one of the hardest positions, most physical positions. And right. I still think it talked about in these conversations, but like it's, it was, it's very different from the Emmitt Smith career, right? Who is the NFL's all-time leading rusher, obviously just like played an extremely long time, stayed healthy. You know, and like, I don't know, you know, that's an interesting thing. I think about right now, I mean, if I don't know if this is who you were kind of alluding to, Shane, but my classmate Aaron, like still playing, still hanging on, you know, and I think a lot of people talking about what does that look like? Because again, watching him, this is one of the greatest QB talents ever when it comes to throwing the football.

Right.

And like, here he is aging, still wanting to compete and toe the line. It doesn't look the same. Is it graceful? Is it not? Right? Like, I think there's a lot of people saying that, you know, I think, hey, just retire, dude. You know, you've done enough. But again, he loves, loves competing.

I mean, good for him.

Like, I know, who knows?

One more, we tell him, hey, Eric, come over, you know, sit next to me, hold this clipboard. Like, good for him. If someone thinks that he's the best option for their team, totally is.

When he's starting, great. Yeah, awesome. Like, also, Brother Smith is gonna pull the Uncle Phil in 2 years and come back. Yeah.

By the way, when you sent me that text, and I'm like, because I just turned 42, you know, and It's like Philip at 44, just out of retirement playing.

I also don't think Uncle Phil is taking care of himself in the same way as you are. So 44, you know, he's a different 44 than I expect you're going to be.

You know, Ravi, is there an example in the Valley of sort of the same thing? A CEO that burned bright for a couple of years and was transformational and everyone says, oh, absolutely, that was the guy. Maybe like a Jack Dorsey. Versus a guy who has done it or a gal who's done it over the course of a long time? I know Silicon Valley is not that old, but—

No, it's a great question.

Is there an analogous comparison there?

Yeah, I think so. I think you could say like Byrne Bright would be like Travis Kalanick at Uber, right? Like, you know, 7, 8 years. I mean, you think about what Uber was and the intensity that Uber has as it grew. And some of the controversy that came along with it. But I mean, he was unbelievable. He was unbelievable. I mean, the ferocity that he had was incredible. The longevity example now would be like Jensen Huang at NVIDIA. I mean, NVIDIA has been around for 35, 30-plus years. Jensen's been there the whole time and he's still at the helm of it. And He is peak of his powers right now after 30 years. And this is where it's interesting, which is like you can compound in the business world for longer than you can as an athlete, right? Jensen, I don't know how old Jensen is, but I would suspect he's in his mid-50s or something, right? And I mean, he's got a decade plus left if he wants. Right. And he's been doing it for 35 years or 30 years or whatever. Like, you know, Larry Ellison, I think, is like 80 years old. Right. Like, um, you know, Elon is like 54. You can imagine these people going for like so long. And that's what I was alluding to earlier when I said that, like, there's so much to envy about the professional athlete life, but you guys do have to have, by definition, different careers. You have to have them. Whereas in the business world, you can have stakes within the same career for a very long time. And that is a real gift, you know what I'm saying? Because I think that maybe the chance to have longevity if you want it is like a real gift. You know what I'm saying? There is some physical thing that runs out. As an athlete. And Steph and Tom Brady and LeBron are testing that. But yeah, I think—

Don't you agree though that there's something that runs out for these CEOs as well though? I don't want to bring up Elton John's 1975 Imperial period, but there was something that ran out of Elton John and then he's played his hits for many years after that, right? And so, what runs out for a CEO? You know, is Imperial period. If you're a longtime Glue Guys listener, you know, this is an inside joke. And I do get feedback every now and then. Someone stopped me on the street the other day and said, you know, forget those guys. I know what you're saying. I agree with the Imperial period.

I remember when you brought up, we're like, bro, what are you talking about? Like, how old are you? I think Shane, you know, funny enough, I think it runs out for most of them. I think you're right. I think it is the rare exception that someone who can do it forever. And the main thing that they lose, you know, business changes ridiculously fast. And so, like, the willingness to reinvent, the willingness to kind of stay on the cutting edge is really hard. Like, one thing that's quite remarkable is, like, you know, Satya Nadella at Microsoft, like, he spends a lot of time with startups, like, a lot, lot, lot of time. And like, he runs a company that's worth like $3 or $4 trillion, like also, you know, so he has like this giant thing. I think Microsoft has like 300,000 or 400,000 employees and he's had to like constantly reinvent and stay and like the energy it requires to do that is quite hard. So yeah, Shane, I think that there's definitely an equivalent where like the vast majority of CEOs, they want what got them there to get them to the next place. And it doesn't.

It never does.

You have to keep changing. So much. And most people at some point are just like, I don't want to keep changing. It's too hard. I think the willingness to reinvent— I'm like thinking about the letter you wrote me after Amazon bought Whole Foods. But the, like, you know, Coach K told you guys, like, you have to reinvent but stay true to your principles. I think that is a very important part of longevity is this willingness to reinvent. And it's freaking hard. It's hard to keep reinventing.

Do you think— I gotta, on this same note of reinventing, and I kind of view it as like, I want to go back to Shane when you first talked about your goals, right? Like the 10 years, and then, you know, again, going out like Barry. But like, did that ever change for you, right? Like as you got into your career and established confidence, and it's like all of a sudden, oh hell yeah, I can be on the All Yeah, that's a good point.

Your goals have to change too.

Hell yeah, I can go to a team that wins a championship and be a significant part of it. Did that change? Because I know, again, for me, that was the case, right? When I got to Kansas City and all of a sudden it was like you gained some confidence, it was like, no, my expectation for myself is no longer just holding onto the reins and getting through this, right? No, I want to make a Pro Bowl. I want to, you know what I'm saying? My expectation is playoffs and winning playoff games. You know, fuck Tom Brady kind of thing. You know, like I can beat it. You know what I'm saying?

Like, I hope nobody clips this episode and just ends up with a viral clip of you right there, Alex.

Every time you're in the AFC, it's like every fucking time you play him, you're like, God. You know? No, I mean that. It's probably no different. Like, as long as the goals are changing, like, then it goes back to your will to prepare. Right? Like if there's still something that you're chasing, I think that will to prepare is there, right?

Like you don't know what you don't know, right? And so it's no different than business or in sports. You get in there and first of all, like, do I belong? And you're like, okay, yeah, I can play. Okay. And then you see like guys on the first team, you know, all pro team or a first team all defense. You're like, I can do that. Like, yeah. All right. Like no big deal. So like, yeah, I'm going to work towards that. And so I think once you sort of see something at a level that you think in your heart that, "Ah, this is not unattainable." I would say the small goals changed, but the big goals never changed. I had a unique position. So, I signed a 6-year extension in Memphis. And so, I was not a free agent for 10 years. And so, I was kind of set in and my second contract was like, "Mama, we made it." And that was like— everything beyond that was gravy. And so, by my 10th year, I was finally a free agent. And that's when I'm like, "Ah." I'd like to win an NBA championship. And I always wanted to win one in Houston and Memphis, but just didn't have the squads to do it. But then the goal did change where it's like, ah, it'd be nice to win a championship. And I think LeBron—

Do you think— my opinion, maybe I'll just state it first. I think you are unusual. And I say this as a compliment in your kind of like maintain the big goals and the small goals change. I'll give you an example from a different mindset. I think that I know lots of people who had a goal on some net worth number. Okay. And as soon as it gets hit, the number changes and there's basically no joy for having hit the other one. And the bar just keeps changing. And there's never any, like, just sort of like kind of calm of like, okay, cool. What's all gravy here? They don't seem like that. So do you think this— do you think that's unusual that you're kind of like the big goals didn't change, but the— you know what I'm saying? Your mindset feels very different to me than most people's.

Yeah. Well, when you don't grow up with shit, you know, when you got shit, it's pretty awesome. So, I was never greedy. I was never greedy. I was never— I'm very thankful for everything I was able to get, right? So, I think from that standpoint, I have been very, very humble about what I've been able to accomplish. I gave a speech yesterday and someone asked me like, "Hey, you know, you seem really humble and, you know, is that all an act?" And I said, "Honestly," I said, you know, the day I retired after my 13th year, I let out a big cackle, you know, to the universe. And I said, "Ha!

I fooled them. I got them.

The fraud worked. The charade worked for 13 years. I have their money. I have their all-defensive teams. I have their championships and they never found out. Hahaha!" But that's the way I felt. Like I fooled them. I fooled them for a long time. And so, no, I never took take for granted what I was able to do and the opportunity and very thankful and grateful. And I still feel like I robbed these guys without a gun or a knife.

See, Alex, I think my opinion on this is— I think your point of like, does it change? I think there's a really important point when it comes to like anything, which is I think what Shane said, I like wish that for our children, which is to like, you know, realize Oh, wait, I can do more than I thought, right? Like, whatever they think, like, you know, like, in my small examples professionally, same kind of thing of like, you're intimidated, then you walk in and you're like, oh, wait, I can do that. And your expectations rise and your belief in your potential rises, you know? And you realize that the world was built by humans, right? Everything around you was done by somebody who broadly looked like you, and you can kind of like, okay, well, like, what would stop me from doing that? I think the thing that I do think, you know, Shane, is very admirable, this like, idea of maintaining the gratitude the whole time. I find that I have to like work at that a bit more, right? Like, you know, I sometimes you're just like in it, and you have to like remind yourself, you know, to like, be grateful for the fact that you get a chance to do it, you know what I'm saying? And like, this is why I keep all the note cards around, like you guys have them right here, the Tom Izzo note card, you know, it's not because you've got to, it's because you get to. On the days that you're doing something you don't really want to do, you're like, "Wait a second, this is a privilege to do it." So, I think, Alex, your point on the expectations is a really good one because I know my expectations have changed a lot over time. And I truly wonder, like, one of the only places that I think I consistently actively try to have low expectations is on the golf course. I literally try before I go being like, "My expectation is to have fun with my friends today.

It is not—" You're trying to surprise and delight yourself, right?

Surprise and delight myself. I try to have the high expectations. You know what?

I was having this conversation. Somebody that I just met was like asking me about, again, my career. And he didn't know much about football. And he's like, how long did you play? And again, I'm like, 16 years. And then every time I say that, it's like, you Shane, it's like crazy just to say that. And he's like, oh, is that like, I don't know, is that like a long time? And I'm like, well, you know, the average career span is like 2 and a half years in the NFL. And when you say that, you're like, oh my God, that's in, you know, again, it's even more insane.

It's like a 1% of 1%. Yeah.

I was going to say every guy who never played NFL.

Yeah. We ran the math one time. It's crazy.

He kind of like, and I haven't like even, I hadn't really thought about it. He was asking me like further, like, well, how does that happen? You know, as a quarterback. And there is this threshold.

Was this person not from America?

I don't know. He just was like, apparently not, not into football. But my point was, as I started to think about it, I was like, and I kind of explained this, and I imagine basketball is the same. There was a threshold for me as a young player, right? Like, okay, you're a player with potential and you're getting experience and playing, and the role was daunting, right? Like being a starting quarterback every single week and winning and doing it that consistently was like very daunting at the time. And again, it is like hanging onto the reins and you're just like trying to go through. There is a threshold then from an experience standpoint that you have achieved enough experience and playing time. And it kind of happens simultaneously. Like obviously there's tremendous value now all of a sudden in that experience that you've accumulated, even if it is not great experience, right? Like, and then also I think from, from my perspective, and I think this happens for a lot of quarterbacks, because again, and I'm really thinking about QBs here, right? There's a lot of guys, Case Keenum, my old teammate, I mean, he might be in the league now for like 17 years, right? Like, again, he's this kind of journeyman, been on a bunch of teams, but there's like so much value in this guy and having him. There's this experience that like you achieve that all of a sudden even though the back half of my career I was not even close to, from a physical powers, peak power standpoint, what I was the first half of my career, I was so much of a better player, right? And it's almost like it became, and it was all like up here between the ears. And it was again, from this experience that I had achieved, just like what you said, Ravi Gupta, you're in it and you're like, well, I really was making it more than it was. And you kind of simplify the game. And by the end of my career, you're almost able, even when I came back, you play with half a leg and it's like, well, because I'm just playing up here, right? I really simplified the game. And it's so funny. I look back at when I was 22 though, and I could roll and I could sling it and I was strong. And I'm like, but I sucked. You know what I'm saying? It's just funny, the juxtaposition of that. And again, there are these QBs that if you either flame out after like 3, 4 years, or you hang on long enough now that you've crossed this threshold and now you can play for like 12, 14, 15 years, however long you want. Does that make sense? It's like, it's so binary.

Well, Alex, you know, this is what makes Steph and LeBron so interesting. And we've all admitted to changing and CEOs have to change. LeBron's not trying to change. LeBron is not trying to be the first option. On the Lakers, right? Steph is not trying to take a backseat, right? So it's interesting. Like, yes, we all know that father's, father time makes us change and we have to adapt. But like those guys aren't adapting. They're not taking a backseat to anybody. They still want to be lions, right? Which is bonkers. Yeah.

I think, and back to your point on will to prepare, you know, for, to be Steph's size and to still be the number one option, to have the game that he has and still be the number one option. On a good team, right? You know, not maybe not a championship team, but on a good team, it requires a level of effort to stay in shape that's insane. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, it's truly crazy. And I think honestly with LeBron, like, yeah, like, you know, there was a moment where it felt like he was kind of falling back as an option. You know what I'm saying? But like, Luka was out this series and, you know, he like played as the number one. Shay said he was top of the, top of the scouting report. But I guess, Alex, the thing I think about when you made your threshold point is that again speaks to why it's important to have gratitude for the chance to have any longevity, because a lot of it's luck, right? Totally. You've talked about this. You could have gotten bounced out of the league prior to you actually getting the second half of your career when you actually got to use all the powers that you'd accumulated. This is something where I will tell you that in outside of athletics, one of the hardest things is figuring out what experience is relevant versus what experience is dated. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, there's nothing like the guy— so, for instance, Shane, I see you flipping your head. There's sometimes in the boardroom, there's somebody with experience who's on the board who tells you something and you're like, "Oh my God, that's amazing. Gosh, I got to write that down." And then, there's sometimes that the person tells you something and you're rolling your eyes because you're like, "Yeah, dude, I've heard it before. It ain't like that anymore, grandpa." It's just different. You know, and for your own sake, you have to figure out what experiences are relevant versus what experiences are no longer relevant. Like, I can tell you that that's one of the hardest things for me is figuring out like what applies and what doesn't, what's enduring and what's not, you know, like that is like a real thing. Not all experiences are useful right now. I'll give you an example. Okay. So there is conventional wisdom in Silicon Valley, which is like, you never want to double the size of your company. In a year, you never want to do more than double the size of your company in a year. Okay. And basically it's just like, it becomes extremely difficult to manage. Like the rate of change is so high and you're, you're onboarding too many people. And there was this like kind of accepted practice. Well, like in the world of AI, it's kind of like getting revisited, right? And it's getting revisited. And then it's like, wait a second. Like the, there is a moment right now where companies are willing to buy AI solutions at a rate that they've never been willing to buy anything before. And so do you really want to limit your chance to go and like, go after that based on this like old conventional wisdom of like what you're, what you can deal with from a management perspective. And really what's happened is some of these companies are like living a year in a quarter. And so now, like you kind of have to realize like, what did that rule exist for? And what's the upside from breaking it? And my only point is that if you just say it when someone's like, "Well, how many people should we hire this year?" And you're like, "Well, you shouldn't double more than— you shouldn't do more than double in a year." A very smart 22-year-old is going to be like, "But why?" And your answer is going to be like, "Well, you're going to have a hard time managing it." And then they're like, "Well, yeah, I get it. But is that worse than me giving up the opportunity to go and get all the revenue because my competitor is going to go and hire 4 times as many people?" And you're going to be like, I got to think about that. And so my point is that you, somebody, one of the best parts about being around young people in the Valley is they ask you why you believe something. And if you don't have a very good reason, you're very quickly exposed, you know? And so that was the example that was coming about, whereas like treat people the right way, you know, that's experience. Like don't be cute when you come to management. That's a lifelong lesson. So there's like these enduring ones versus these ephemeral ones.

I think about, like, as you're saying that again, right? Like, certainly, like, some of these that are rules that have been passed down and there's like similar, you get these like same clichés in sports, right? And like, and even in your position group, right? Like QBs, like, don't throw late over the middle. And you're like, well, I've seen Patrick do it a whole lot and throw a lot of touchdowns, right? Like, hey, don't, hey, don't roll left and throw back across your body. And you're like, wait, wait, Josh Allen does it pretty well. Anyway, from an experience standpoint, regardless of it being relevant or dated, I do think if it's like firsthand experience— They all matter. It is valuable, right? Like if, whether I'm playing quarterback or running a company and I've had a personal experience with something, right? And again, whether it was a learning experience or it went well, whatever. Right? Like, I think there is value in that now that I may be passing it down to somebody else, right? Like, I learned the most by watching aging depleted quarterbacks that didn't have very much of, like, didn't have a lot of ability still operate with less. Does that make sense? Like, it was like, oh my God, this guy can't, like, if you put us in a combine, like, I would run circles around this guy and like throw it all, but like, he's a hell of a lot better than me, like, playing the game, you know what I'm saying? And like, so from an operator standpoint, I could imagine that like if you were on the board and I'd had a very personal experience as opposed to passing down just some idiom, right? Like that, that's part of the, the culture of the industry or something.

It's more nuanced if that makes sense. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think that's, I, I think that makes sense. I think that, uh, I think what I'm saying is like when, when the— I agree with you. I think it's more like you have to keep go getting good experiences in order to be relevant, right? You know, at some point, you know, like the experience from X number of years ago, you know, no doubt.

Yeah, I could not agree more.

Yeah.

Yes. But I think I tend to agree with you, Alex. You got to, you got to have some bad information there. So, you know what the good information is. You cannot just have great experience. You cannot just have great advisors. The entire time because life changes. You're not going to have those advisors, right? So if you've got nothing but great advice as you're starting this new company, right, how do you know where the pitfalls are? Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's going to be pitfalls. So like, I think that I'm not saying surround yourself with crappy advisors and go out and get bad. No, no, no, no. I think, I think everything's a data point to—

Yeah, but that's the— I think that's to me the point, which is like, if you think about part of what you're going to have to do as a leader is figure out what's good advice versus bad advice. And so part of what you need to have is like, realize how do you filter out information, right? How do you decide what's good and what's not? No, I think that's all true. I think maybe the point I'm making is more specific, and maybe I'm wrong, but like, it's just like, I think part of the reason that I went to go and try to start this new thing was because I felt like some experiences I had were like forever. And some of them, I'm like, they don't apply anymore. Right? And I wanted to try and get experiences that applied because I think that the world right now is really different. And I think like operating at the speed of business today is different than it was even 10 years ago. And I found that like, I was less confident in my perspective because I did think that like, the world was changing enough. The speed of decision-making that I'm supposed to make now is faster than it was 10 years ago. Maybe it's me projecting a bit, but that was the thing that was on my mind.

Yeah. Also, to be fair, I think you understand the speed of decision-making and business growth is much more of a cocktail party discussion in the Valley versus elsewhere in the country. Right.

There's lots of bad things that happen about being in Silicon Valley, and there's definitely lots of bubble stuff that happens.

But yeah, go ahead, Alex. I think about a couple of things. Like, as you said that, Ravi, like, if we were to have gone back to like 22-year-old fresh out of college Ravi and like asked you, like, before you're doing this new thing, like, look at this career, look at the job in the current place you're at. And like, I would imagine you would've been like, hey, sign me up, right? Like, I'll take that.

Yeah, I'd have been pretty happy. I'll take two.

I'll take two. I would've been pretty happy.

Fast forward and here you are again. You're like, you've got this, it, this again. Yeah, like I want to go do this thing. I want to, again, things have changed. I want this new experience. And I guess I'm thinking about two different things here. Again, this, again, the moving goals. Right? Like mindset as it continues to change and still the will to go prepare, you know? I also think about early on, like the first, you know, if I were to look at like the first chunk of your careers when you're just grinding, right? And you're not getting the rewards and there is the unknown of if you ever will get these rewards, right? And like the mind— at that point, and again, even we talked about this earlier, like the micro perseverance to just like keep, keep kind of pounding the pavement and like keep showing up every day. Because there are a lot of people, and you know this, that like kind of bow out, right? Like get discouraged and they do bow out. And then like they, it kind of again like weeds itself out.

Well, Alex, here's a question for you, but both of you guys at this point, mid-40s, all right, lovely families, successful business people, what is more appealing to you? A burning longer or burning brighter? Do you want a career over the next 20 years and have sustained excellence and do that thing for 20 years? Or do you want to create something so magnificent in a short period of time but knowing that it has a shelf life and you got to find something else? What is more appealing to you as wizened old men now? That's a tough question.

That's a tough question. Okay. I would say I would take the longevity. Looking back at it now, I would take the journey. I would take the ride. I would take all the experiences and relationships and everything that come with that longevity. And again, being in the game, like to Ravi's, like new experiences, like to have the new experiences over time. Maybe if they weren't quite as bright as like my alternative option, does that make sense? But just like having been in it for longer, doing it for longer, like, uh, I, I would, I would take that.

I don't— I never read this book, but I always thought that— I guess Rob Lowe, when he wrote his autobiography, the name of the book is Stories I Tell My Friends. And I always thought that was like an amazing name for a book, you know what I'm saying? Because like ultimately it's just like when you're around the people you love, like, what are you talking about? You know what I'm saying? Like, and the only way to have good stories, I think, is that you've earned them by like doing stuff, you know, you've done interesting things. And so, you know, there is value in like kind of telling the same people the same stories over and over again. But it's also nice to have some new ones, you know. And I hope that like, I really think that like the idea of like earning good stories for a long time, Uh, would be cool. Um, and I do think, Shane, you have to pair it with the thing that I mentioned. I think both of you guys do pretty well, but it's like, you have to pair it with like gratitude in the moment. It can't just always be like, you just want to keep going forever. Like you do have to like look around and be like, damn, it's so fun. It's so cool that we get to do it. You know, like Alex, I would just going back to what you said, like, yeah, like I think if you like ran the simulation 10,000 times, I'm not sure how many scenarios are better than the one that happened for me. You know, like, not many, you know, like, so I think it's pretty good. And I like want to feel that. But I also want to like, do more, you know what I'm saying? But, but not because it's sort of like, this wasn't good. It's just totally, you know, but, but I will tell you that, like, yeah, Shane, I think your point of like, the would you go for like the brightest, but then it burns out versus like the longest, Yeah, I think I'd go for something enduring. I think I'd also, you know, like—

You're also, you know, starting a new venture. So, that's probably the right question for all your investors and everything.

So— Yeah, exactly. If anyone's listening.

Maybe, dude, this could be your peak powers coming up. This could be, you know what I'm saying?

Well, I'm the opposite from you guys. I valued longevity, I valued consistency, I valued safety in my professional career. Now, I want to master something. I want mastery of a skill and I want to take something as far as I can go, as long as I can go. And if it burns out, okay. I think of my golf game that way, right? I think of the consulting I do for the different companies that I do. Like, hey, if I could be great at this, but I know I have a shelf life, That's cool. I want to see what that feels like. And then what's next? You know? And now all of a sudden I have all these new experiences and I know what like success looks like. And like, hey, let's do it again. So like, I'm much more entrepreneurial that way, like now today than I was growing up. But I'm just like, man, I got to make it.

I got to make it. Okay. So let me ask you a question, Shane. I love that. I love that answer. It feels when I hear you say that, it's sort of like there's confidence that there will be a bunch of things that burn bright. Right. You know, but you don't need to know what the next one is. Right. Okay. But if I was to ask you over the next 20 years, do you think you'll have things that burn bright, like almost consistently for that 20-year period? Because it's like, do you see what I'm saying? It's like you have— No, no, no. Okay. That's interesting.

Yeah. Right. You know, I go back to David Rubenstein, you know, his sage advice after I retired. Was he said to me like, "Look, Shane, you won the first third of your life, okay? You know, athletes, young musicians, like you crush it, you've reached your dreams. Now, the question is, can you win the second third of your life in a totally different way?" And I hadn't thought about like that, right? Now, you know, relying on some of the things you learned, the lessons that you learned in the first third but applying them in a much different way, you know, much the same as what you're doing now, Ravi Gupta. And then, the third, the last third of your life when you are winding down and thinking about legacy and everything else, can you win that third in a new way that has nothing to do with the second or the first third of your life, right? And like that's a life lived well, a whole life. And so, when I heard that, I said, "That really appeals to me to be able to do multiple things to a very high level, even if they don't last very long, to look back and say, 'You know what? I did it my way, right?

I did it my way.'" Is this why you hate on Elton John for playing his hits for the rest of his life? Is this why you're so— We're back. What's wrong with that? What's wrong with selling out stadiums and playing your hits?

Nothing. Nothing. Because, you know, he reminds people of a certain time and era. And, you know, it's an escapism few hours, which I love. I would love to see Elton John again, for the record.

I think, though, I would tell you whether you want long or whether you want bright, you know, I think to me, a big learning is like, you can't exist at our age without something that has like stakes to it. Like there has to be a risk of it not working in order for it to be interesting. Yeah. Like I think that the time where you start— dying is too strong— but the time where you start fading is when you just don't have stuff that like matters to you. You know, like this is why I think you need something like Alex. I think about you when you're like, You like go on TV, right? And you like talk about like, can I actually do this my way? Can I not do it in a way that, you know, is like the people I don't like, right? And there's like, I mean, it's live TV. There's like stakes to it. You know what I'm saying? I think Shane, I think about each of the different projects you have. Right. And I actually really admire like the fact you could totally mail it in when you do your speeches and it would work, but you don't do that. Like, I remember one time you were here for a speech and I was like, do you want to like hang out the night before? You're like, I have to go to bed. This time because I have my routine that I do in the morning. Like, the idea of like, no, I'm gonna fucking bring it for these things. Basically, I think that whatever you do, the big thing I like believe is like, you can't retire from having things that matter. You can retire from your job, you can retire from whatever, but you can't retire from having like meaningful interactions, you know, because I think that's where like you start to fade and it's not, it's not good. And I think that you need some sort of purpose and doesn't have to be professional. Like yesterday, it was actually quite interesting. Yesterday my kids played a piano recital yesterday and like, I, I'm certain that I can imagine a stereotype of like, you know, Indian family, like the kids are like fucking amazing at piano. Like they're not, they're, they're wonderful boys, but they're like fine at the piano. You know what I'm saying? It's not— say it again. I can't wait till they hear this. Okay. Yeah, no, it's fine. My kids are amazing at many things. They're like totally good and fine at the piano, right? Funny enough, when they practice, they set a timer for 10 minutes and like when the timer goes off, it doesn't matter what note they're on, they're like off the keys. Like they do not, you know what I'm saying? It's amazing. Anyway, I went to this thing and it was in a church. Okay. And I was just sitting there like, you can imagine, like I don't spend a lot of time in churches. Okay. But this recital was in a church, and dude, just physically being in a church was incredibly calming. Just sitting in there, sitting in there was very calming. And I was thinking about a pastor or somebody. This person has remarkable stakes in their life, right? Because an entire community of people comes and sits and listens to what they have to say. You know what I'm saying? And they are responsible effectively for whether a group of people is mentally calm, you know, and like, it wouldn't have been obvious to me that a pastor would have a job with like very high stakes, but they do, you know. And so I think it can be anywhere, but I do think you need it. You need it in your life.

I was just kind of thinking as you were like going through that, and obviously, like, I, I do agree with you, right? Like, obviously, we were kind of talking specifically about careers and longevity versus like burning bright. But as you do expand it to like your life, like, again, I do think there is a connection from life longevity to— from a mindset of, again, we're calling them new experiences, but in the end, I do think it's like we've talked about this multiple times, like curiosity, right? Like, there is certainly a curiosity that people have for these new experiences or doing new things that I do think affects— it's so funny that like from a mindset standpoint, it affects your physical longevity. Can it? No different than, than what you were saying, Shane. This like will to prepare. Like there's a curiousness there, right? Like to like keep, keep going, right?

Like, well, I mean, think about it like this, Alec. Let's say Shane didn't do his GPT shit, okay? Shane never talked— Shane today, the same personality that Shane has, he, you know, for anyone listening, Shane early on is like, oh, let me check, let me check my bot, you know? And you're like, what are you talking about? Right. But Shane is like deeply curious about this thing. And I would tell you that, like, I don't know what some percentage of our conversations relate to, like Shane exploring things with, you know, his bot that he created. And I think that like, if if, if you didn't do anything new like that, Shane, I don't know, like at some point it just like would be less interesting to like spend time together.

You know, and it does come back to like, I love what you said, like the stories you tell your friends. Yeah. You want to be friends with people that again, like, and again, whatever your thing is, but like, yeah, totally.

It doesn't have to be, it's not, and this is where people mistake. It's like not a money thing. It's not a professional thing. It's just like a— Totally. You know, like kind of friendships, like about being like interesting and interested, you know what I'm saying? But you have to be interesting too. Like I was thinking about this, I went to this like event and like, you know, I was like happy to be invited. But the point was nobody will talk to you at the event if you're not actually interesting. Do you see what I'm saying? Like you could like find a way to get invited to something, but like you can't find a way to make somebody want to talk to you. And the real thing, especially in the world that we like have now, I think everybody's searching. I do think this is back to why these guys are doing it. I think people are searching for real in such a meaningful way. They are searching through the desert for something real. And I think that what Steph and LeBron have, and this is why athletics are amazing, it's so pure and real, you know what I'm saying? To compete, because it doesn't matter that LeBron James is LeBron James when he's on the floor. He has to compete, you know what I'm saying? Nobody like goes easy on him, you know, like nobody wants to talk to him because he's rich or because he's LeBron. Like, they're like, no, like, you got to play. And this is— I think people like really are searching in their lives for like things that are objective and real and like can't be faked, especially right now with like what's happening in the world. I think there's like this crazy desire to like find interactions that are real.