What Great Teams Learn From Heartbreak

One of the most devastating losses that I have seen, not only in sports but in my life. Duke is up 17 points and the kid Mullins from UConn intercepted it and hit a 40-footer at the buzzer to beat us. I mean, it was spectacular and it was just a shocking, shocking, shocking loss. So it's been over a week since one of the most devastating losses that I have seen, not only in sports, but in my life. The Duke Blue Devils losing to UConn in a pretty spectacular fashion. Okay, that was— it wasn't just a garden variety loss. For those who don't follow March Madness, it was the regional final. The winner gets to go to the Final Four, which in my estimation is the toughest game to win because if you go to the Final Four, it's a great year, right? No one's busting your balls for going to the Final Four. But if you fall short, it really, really hurts. Duke is up 17 points in the second half and everything's looking good. And, you know, there are a couple loose balls, there are a couple missed free throws, a couple shots, a couple turnovers, and all of a sudden we have a game. And, you know, Duke up 2 with the ball with 10 seconds left after a free throw. We could talk about all the things that should have happened or could have happened in the last 10 seconds of that game. But up 10, I'm sorry, up 2 with 10 seconds to go, you probably have like a 98 winning, you know, 99% chance of winning that game. And the one outcome that would have gotten Duke beat happened. Caden Boozer, brother of Cameron Boozer, had the ball. He had 2 guys down the court, and he was trying to get the ball to them, threw kind of a hook pass to him. It got tipped, and the kid Mullins from UConn intercepted it and hit a 40-footer at the buzzer to beat us. I mean, it was spectacular. I'm sure you've been spammed all week on Instagram, and it was just a shocking, shocking, shocking loss for Blue Devil fans, but for basketball football fans, you know, to the point where even to like today, a week later, people are like, man, I'm sorry. I'm sorry about that game. That had to hurt. And so it's rare. It's rare that, you know, when Duke loses, I hear about it, but it's rare I hear about it a week later. So Ravi, where were you when the shot went in and what was your reaction? Oh my God.

I mean, honestly, I can tell you how much it hurt given that it's been over a week and it, it's still like, as you're talking about it, I'm like, oh, I felt like I was getting body blows while you were describing it again. Okay, so where I was, I was at my house watching with the family. We specifically had not had anyone else over because I was like, this is an important game. I don't want to have anyone like chiding me about the game. Like, I have a very good friend, Aaron Duncan, who like likes to come over during Duke games and just give me shit. And I love him, but I'm like, I can't watch a Duke game with him anymore because like, I don't want to be— I don't want anyone saying anything to me and making jokes.

I'm like, this is too important. It's too important.

It's too important.

We're going to the Final Four. We've got a ticket to the Final Four. I get it.

And so Shane was at my house. I remember exactly where I was standing. You know, Mullins, as you know, was 10 of 58 for his last 58 threes prior to that. So it wasn't like this guy, you know, shooting 45% from 3-point land. Anyway, my first reaction, just so you have it, was actually like, I have children and I can't act the way I feel right now because I have to set an example, right? Like, you know, because you Your reaction is so like, no, no, this is not—

no.

And like, you know, my like emotional reaction was like, well, they're going to look at me, right? Like they're going to look at me of like, what, what does dad do when this like thing happens? And so the real answer was I had to pretend to be a grownup. I did not want to be a grownup. I did not want to do anything that was rational, but I kind of tried to be like, you know, guys, like, like, well, we sometimes, sometimes you don't win the one that you maybe should win. And, you know, it's all about how you react to this. And Manshire is such a class act, like all these things. But yeah, I kind of didn't have the reaction I would have normally had because I wanted to be an example.

Alex, we're, you know, obviously, yeah, the game and, you know, try to contain your excitement and your— No, no, no. You know, right now.

No, no, no, no, no. Before you get started, I do, Shane. I got texted like I had— I mean, I was almost embarrassed with the level of texts that I got of like people really soft, like, I'm so sorry. Like nobody— I mean, people acted like I had lost something very significant in my life. Do you see what I'm saying? People were really careful with me. Not a single like make fun of Duke text, which is unusual. Like, and so anyway.

Very.

Yes.

Very unusual.

Yes.

So, A lot here. I had the game on in the background. Obviously, big fan of the tournament and college basketball, but this was probably the least actually this year that I was into it, but on and watching, obviously, very interested in Duke, you guys, and there's some level of affiliation that I've absorbed to that. And again, number 1 team in the country. So it's kind of on in the background during the day and I'm not paying a lot of attention to it. But then obviously, like you described, Shane, it gets close in the end. You're watching and appears just to be math at this point, right? Like from a clock standpoint and the lead, like just take care of the math and you win the foot— you know, you win the game. Sorry. And, um, and then obviously to watch what unfolded, and I was one of those people, I love giving you two shit, and I like very knew immediately, like, nah, I'm not texting, not texting right now on this one. This one's got to sting, you know. Number one seed, number one team for most of the country, most of the year and had been playing great. And obviously very much deserved to win that game. But it's funny, it's kind of interesting. I do think it'll be, I know we're probably going to go with this conversation, but on the flip side of this, take all the Dukies out. This was this amazing moment for college basketball. This will go down, Shane, I think is like, and you, I'm trying to put it in perspective. It is one of the greatest shots and plays in the NCAA tournament history, I think.

Yeah.

You know, again, to go to the Final Four, right? Like this iconic Final Four against Duke.

Comeback adds to it. Yeah.

Yeah.

The odds, right? Like again, to make the steal and throw it up and hit it like it is going to live. It's going to live in the intro to the, you know, March Madness forever in the montage they use to build up to this, right, as one of these iconic moments. And so that is like the flip side of this coin, right? Like, I think, you know, again, to your guys' heartbreak. And again, I think that's kind of what's embedded in this. You definitely had the game won, should have won, and kind of let it, you know, obviously some errors that built up to this magical moment for UConn and unbiased, I guess, fans. But with that, like, I think you immediately run through Shane. I'm like, well, what should he have done? Right? Like, first off, I'm like, poor Caden Boozer. I'm just like, he played so well in the tournament, you know, and he like, he owned up to it. Right? I mean, this guy, like, you want to talk about a stud? I felt like, like, talking about step up to the mic and was just like, unbelievable. Oh, class. This is me. Right? Like, I thought that was so impressive from a young man's, you know, like, to talk about just a brutal spot to be in.

Right?

Um, so, um, I thought that was so impressive. And so again, like, all these mixed emotions because, like, again, I'm a fan of those. It was this crazy moment to deliver in. And again, the other side is this poor kid that has the turnover in this moment. And, you know, like, the margin of error— like, like, if he, if he takes the foul or he makes the pass, game's over and they're going, you know. And so, uh, but this is something that he will wear and is going to have to wear.

Well, you know, so I would love to talk about coming back from devastating moments where unlikely moments, things do not go your way that you did not see coming. There was an outcome that was unexplainable. And I would love to talk about this today on how you bounce back from that, what, you know, how you process all these things. And the first thing, like I was, I thought while watching the game, it actually eerily reminded me of my team in the same spot as a freshman in 1998. We were the number 1 seed. We're playing the number 2 seed Kentucky in the Tropicana Dome in St. Petersburg, Florida. It was the first game there randomly. And we are up 17 points in the second half. And I remember it like it was yesterday, looking up at the clock and saying, we're going to the Final Four. We are going to— and I'm not a person that looks like everyone looks ahead.

I know that. I'm so surprised to hear you say this. No, I'll never forget it.

I was on the bench at the time looking up and I'm looking up, I'm like, we're going to San Antonio. We're going to San Antonio. We're beating these guys. There's no way these guys can come back. Right? And I let myself get into a place that wasn't the present. Right? And I rarely did that in my athletic career after that. One of the, I think my strongest attributes was presence. But at that moment, I did not have presence. And I'll never forget that feeling. Just crazy things happened in that second half of that Kentucky game. So we started missing shots. You know, there were a couple, you know, weird turnovers. There was like a flagrant foul that was called on us that gave them huge momentum. Jeff Sheppard starts hitting threes like Ishimu Evans, you know, I still remember it. And it's just like, what happened? And, you know, in a comeback like that, you know, what people don't realize is like the arena comes alive because every fan that is there, obviously there were Kentucky fans, like there are UConn fans, but the fans are just to watch basketball, they want to see something miraculous, right? And so all of a sudden you feel it. You feel that arena. You— it's almost like the Roman theater, you know, the Roman Coliseum. You feel the crowd sort of like hoping that you start missing shots and you want to see the miraculous comeback. It's just human nature. And all of a sudden it got tight and we lose the game. And my first reaction is, what in the hell? What happened? You know, it was the same reaction I had when UConn beat Duke. What happened? Did that just really happen? And waking up the next morning, it's like, did that really happen? Or was it just a bad dream? And so eerily, it reminded me of that game because it is so tough to go to the Final Four. And again, if you go to the Final Four and lose, no one's busting your chops. But to fall one game short, man, I still remember that game. And to a lesser extent, I had the same feeling after UConn beat us in '99 in the national championship game. At least we got after the national championship game that year. But, I texted Coach Shire who, again, handled it with class and dignity and was an amazing representative for Duke University. And, I told him, I say, "Man, I don't have the right words for you right now. I really don't. All I can tell you from my experience is that I had a turd sandwich in 1998 when Kentucky came back from 17 to beat us." I had a turd sandwich in 1999, you know, as double-digit favorites losing to UConn in the national championship game. Yeah, those did not taste well, you know, that they went down very, very slowly, and I had to chew on those things for a long time. But I'll tell you what, in 2001 when we won it, I don't think it would have been as sweet if we didn't have that heartache and that pain of 1998, 1999, you know. And so, uh, my message to John was, look, look, 2025, that was hard to swallow. All right, 2026, very difficult to process, hard to swallow. All right, those are turd sandwiches. But when you break through, you're going to look at these moments and you're going to say, man, like, I appreciate this because of what I went through. And that's, that's the only thing I could, I could come up with.

Yeah. What do you remember what that— I mean, it's so hard because, you know, it's obviously when it's kind of one and done in basketball, similar to NFL playoffs, right? It's so final, right? Like moments earlier, you thought the ride was going to continue at least one more week, right? And you guys, that team is still going to be together and you still have more of the journey and then it's over and you come back into the locker room and it will net like the seniors are going to be gone. They just played their last college basketball game ever. Right?

Yeah.

Different. You're, you know, you were a freshman at the time, but like, that team will never be the same ever again. Like, you know, there's certain people that will be going on to their own, um, kind of directions. And so it's the finality of it when it hits you and you're sitting on the stool, like, in that locker room and everybody's kind of staring at each other. It just— it's like, it is a very eerie feeling, right? Again, and again, yeah, like, to find the words. I'm so interested, do you remember what— how Coach K handled it?

Yeah, what did he say to you guys after '98 or '99?

You know, Coach K, he never talked about wins and losses. He talked about just being worthy of winning, being worthy of the process, right? And, you know, I think there were different dynamics in both those years. I thought that in 1999, we had the best team in the country in January. I mean, we were 37-1 going into the championship game. We had 5 pros. We had Player of the Year Alton Brand. I don't think that we were as together in that Final Four as we were in January. And I talk about presence. I don't think that team was present. I think there were other thoughts, you know, no, you know, of no ill towards my teammates, you know, there were more distractions, right? I don't think we were as focused. And so I could explain '99 a little more. '98 was just, I don't know what happened. And I don't remember what Coach K said. I mean, I was in a haze. I was just in a haze and it just didn't seem real. But to your point, Alex, it is such a weird feeling of finality and coming to the end of a journey, something that you started, you know, months and months ago and just grinded hours for hours for hours. And of course, there's only one team that feels great at the end.

Right?

Only one. And that's the rub. But to be cut short and feel you've fallen short, man, it is heartbreaking. And that's, you know, I just knew the feeling of Shire and all the guys in that Duke locker room after the game. And to your point, like, they're on their own way. That team will never be the same team. It'll be a new group next year and a different dynamic. And you have to climb the mountain again. And It, it, it takes a while to process something like that.

I think, Shane, the— my thought actually, after like having my own feelings about it on, you know, like as a fan, was just how bad I felt for, uh, in this case, and then I'll abstract it, how bad I felt for Caden and for Coach Shire. Yeah, right. And I think that because you realize like whatever you feel, like somebody else— like, it's devastating. And even I would imagine in '98 for you, right? Like, I would imagine at some point it's like, oh wait, like there were seniors on that team, right? Who'd actually don't get to come back and do it again. So even though it was—

Well, Wojciech Wojcik, Rashawn McLeod. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, I mean, and like, think about for you, like, you're— it's like peak bad because you're like on the team, but it wasn't even as bad as it probably— I think for like Wojciech Wojcik and Rashawn McLeod because they don't get to play on the team anymore. Right. And I, like, I— so one thing I think that does happen sometimes, and I actually am curious, Alex, like how this if it would apply to you during your, like, very tough moments, if you like, think about, well, like, as bad as it is for me, like, how bad is it for someone else? Like, I don't know, in yours, if like, you thought about Elizabeth or whatever, you know, just like, how tough it is for them. But I think that is one thing. And then I think the second thing that, as a general matter, I've never dealt with anything like what you guys are saying. But I think like, the haze feels very familiar of like, when it's like really bad news that's surprising this like, is this real? Like the next morning, the wake up of like, did that happen? You know, like that I think is like a very normal thing. And then the question to me is like, you remember when we did the Coach K interview, and he was like, it's like speed to trust. Remember this thing of like such a critical metric he thinks about? To me, it's like the speed of getting back on your front foot. You know, in these moments, that's like, I don't know, like the thing that you're thinking about. And to me, like getting on your front foot, I think means like realizing that What could you have done differently to avoid the heartbreak? Because generally the reason that there's a heartbreak is like, it sucked. And it also is something that you cared about, that you contributed to, you know what I'm saying? Like, for me, I think the time where I feel like I'm getting back on my front foot is the first time that I have the thought of like, what could I have done? What am I going to do to avoid that feeling again? You know, and it's not as direct as the stuff that you guys have gone through for sure. But like, So, you know, that's like the thoughts that's going through my head.

Oh, 100%. Yeah.

I got like a few things here. You know, like one, you know, you mentioned like what's, you know, Caden Boozer, you know, the next day you wake up and the what-ifs. And like, all I could think about is like, wake up, like good luck trying to sleep. You know, like I get asked all the time, oh, did you have trouble sleeping like the night before games? I'm like, no, I slept like a baby the night before games. It was the night after games.

Like I could not sleep.

All you do is lay on your pillow and rewind. Like, what if I'd have just done this differently? Or what if I'd have just seen this? And poor Caden, you know, like, again, you know, he thinks, you know, going to make the right play, you know, hit the guy and make it, you know, you deliver the pass and we're not talking about this. And, um, and again, like, what can you take away from it? Sure, there's this amazing moment, but like, there's so many variables, right? Like, moving forward, how many times will he be in this situation again, right? Like, this certainly is not going to be his last turnover. You know, like it's basketball, um, is so much— it's so gray, it happens so fast, you know. And, and again, like, how do you get back onto your front foot, you know, from that perspective? Wherever you— like, he— like, certainly there, he'll be getting back to basketball things, but he won't play a real game, right, until a while. And, and again, this, this is gonna sit. And, um, yeah, and at some point though, you kind of have to exercise it, so to speak, right? Like, you've got to, like, The, the, there's gonna scar tissue will build up and at some point you do have to like be able to move beyond it. Um, and how do you do that? I think like the crux and certainly mentality is a big part of that. I think mindset, how you approach this. I think I was like, again, so impressed, obviously him just like owning it. Right. And again, I think gaining perspective to your point, Ravi, is like important, right? Um, like you, I think you do have to like at some point and time helps with this, like gain perspective on the moment. I guess it's like trying to reflect back to like moments of heartbreak for me, you know, like personally.

Did you ever lose to a Hail Mary? I mean, did you ever like lose to a very unlikely play? No.

Yeah. Yes. Okay. So like, let me just say this, you know, kind of the story of my career, like even through my best years professionally, when I was like winning, you know, like a fair amount of football games. And divisions and things like I got knocked, I like just lost in the playoffs. And like, so I mean, I, I was overtime, you know, from going to, to the Super Bowl and two muffed punts, right? A candlestick to like oddly weird bouncing punts that like hit our returner in the foot and like we lost the game and like that one was like hard to wear, you know? But then moving forward when I was in Kansas City, twice heartbreak in the playoffs, like my first year when I got there, again, we were the worst team in football the year before. They, the Chiefs had won 2 games. We went 9-0 to start the season. We ended up making the playoffs and we go to Indy and because they had won their division. So it's the wild card round and Kansas City, the Chiefs hadn't won a playoff game in 30 years, by the way, like there'd been a huge drought. And so we're in the playoffs and we are just routing the Colts, right? Like at one point we're up 38 to 10 in the third quarter. It's the playoffs, right? Like, oh wow, I've thrown, I've thrown like 4 touchdowns. I've thrown for like almost 400 yards. I mean, we are just like giving it to the Colts and to go up 38 to 10. I'll never forget it. I had a scramble touchdown pass going to my right and I kind of hit this pass, which like fadeawayed. And I turned and rounded up that sideline right to my right. And that was the Colts sideline. And I kind of did this like gloating run by, just like feeling myself like that's game. It's 38 to 10. We are just like in the third. I've just thrown my like fourth touchdown, like national stage. We're just like crushing them. And I do, I remember doing this run by like same moment, Shane, like it's over, right? It's over. And like, wouldn't you know it, they like mount this comeback. Andrew Luck fumbled the ball to himself, picked it up and scored a touchdown. They come all the way back and beat us 45 to 44. It's one of the greatest, oh, it's one of the greatest playoff comebacks ever. And to like be on the other side of that, right? Like was brutal. And again, like I just remember coming back in, you thought it was, you thought it was over. It was this magical season that we were gonna keep going. And then you come in and like just look each other in the face. And then again, in pro sports, especially the NFL, the, you know, obviously the roster is so big, there are so many free agents, like there's so many, half the team's not going to come back, you know, and like these are guys, it's like, it is so over. And again, there's just like such a vacuum, you know, and kind of fog that like sits in that environment. So like tough, tough pill to swallow.

So I want to ask you about something triggered for me. I think there's something about like new expectations in the run. Okay. So like Duke was not, they were like a top 10 team for the year. No one said they were the best team in the country. Nobody. Okay. They said, okay, Cam Boozer is really good. They got some young guy.

Okay.

They got a chance to win. Okay. All of a sudden they go, you know, 34-2, they beat Michigan in a game and everyone's like, oh, they are the number one team in the tournament. Like, you know, every, you know, they're like 80% picked in the ESPN March Madness bracket. So all of a sudden, like a team that people didn't really believe was the best, all of a sudden, oh man, like we got something here. And I think it changes the mindset in those games and the perception of them after the tough loss. So what I heard from you, again, you won 2 games a year before and you start 9-0 and everyone's like, holy cow, we got something here. Right. And so, yeah, there's that, there's that momentum of like, oh, we believe, like we can do it. But there's something about getting your heart broken after your expectations have shifted for the better. Would you, would you agree? And like that is extra, right? Yeah.

And then it, and then to make matters worse in both similar situations, like the way the game played out, it even lent itself to that, right? Like you said it, Duke finishes the regular season kind of with a flurry. And all of a sudden they are this like number 1 overall seed and then they're playing great and they're just crushing UConn, you know, to go to the Final Four and it all but looks like a slam dunk and then it like slips through your fingers and like that, that whole buildup, right? Like in anticipation and expectations and then to have like the, you know, kind of carpet ripped out from under you.

Yeah, but I think that's a good point, right? Because I guess in order for it to be heartbreak or devastation, it has to be surprising, I think. Yeah, right. Like maybe, maybe not always, but I think one of the components of this stuff is it's like ripped away or the ground falls out from underneath you. And like, at least the, the flavor of heartbreak or devastation we're talking about here, I think is the one that comes as a surprise.

So, you know what I'm saying? If Miami, Ohio is Duke, okay. Miami, Ohio, you know, just barely made the tournament. They were undefeated in the regular season. What if they were in that situation and they blew a 17-point lead? Would you not say like, well, we knew it's Miami, Ohio. Like we knew they couldn't do it. Right. Like you wouldn't be as heartbroken for those guys. You'd be like, oh man, that was an awesome run. Like that was awesome. And it would have been fun to, it'd have been fun if it kept going. Right. But the expectations weren't there to go like all the way and these great, you know, so like a Cinderella, you know, when the clock hits zero does not experience the same sort of heartbreak as a favorite or a new favorite. Do you disagree or agree?

Oh, I agree. I totally agree. And the moment also is not as historic. Like if Duke is not on the other side of this as the number one seed, like again, the entire moment's not as magical. And unfortunately, obviously for all the Duke side of this, like it sucks, you know, again, because you're the one that, that again, let it get away, so to speak. But yeah, I think all things for sure expectations again, how many teams in the country, if you like before the season said, hey, you're going to go Yeah, exactly. You're Elite Eight, you're Elite Eight, you're going to play in this amazing game to get to the Final Four. You end up on the back, the wrong side of this unbelievable moment, shot, whatever.

But like, sign me up.

Yeah, there's, I mean, most of the country's signing up for that.

But Alex, here's the question I have for you. When we were talking about heartbreak or devastation, the thought that actually came to my head for you was not like your injury. It was actually the, uh, this, the, actually it was an injury, but it was when you went down, uh, in the Super Bowl year and Kaepernick came in.

Yeah.

And the reason I was thinking about that was like, it's not about the game, but I was thinking about the like moment where Harbaugh tells you he's sticking with Kap.

Yeah.

Right.

Yep.

Like hot hand.

Yeah, we're gonna, we gotta go with the hot hand.

Right.

And so, like, I'm envisioning that. And the reason I'm envisioning that is that to me is like almost more like, it's like almost more applicable to like the rest of like the people in the world, right? Because like people get demoted, people get bad feedback, people, you know what I'm saying? And like, they get somebody, it feels like they got chosen instead of them. Because the other one, it's like, it is, it is actually hard for non-professional athletes to fully grok, like, what you guys are talking about. Whereas like that one, I'm kind of like, no, that's devastation, that's heartbreak. Like, what did that one feel like? And was it similar? Was it different in terms of the haze and the sort of like reaction? And how did you bounce back? Like, what was that one like?

Yeah, I think that like the really hard thing that honestly was like so difficult in that moment was like the duality of, it was personal heartbreak.

Yeah.

But not team heartbreak. Like I went to work every day and we rolled. We were one of the best teams in football.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. That's easy.

Yeah. First 7 or 8 games are like historic. I mean, he still holds the single game rushing record for a quarterback. Right. And it was in the playoffs. Like when we played, we, I mean, I don't think Green Bay still knows who has the ball. So like the team trajectory—

I'm happy about the Packers catching a stray right now.

Yeah, like Clay Matthews running around like having no idea where the ball is. Um, sorry, Clay.

Uh, but it sounds like Clay Matthews is not going to be a guest on you guys.

No, it would be great, by the way.

Okay, great.

We'd love to have him.

No, I'm just saying that because the team was like a rocket ship. Yeah, right. We were— and again, we were the best team in football when I got hurt, right? And again, I was leading, I think I was leading the NFL in QB rating. Like I was playing great, obviously. And then Kap comes in and rolls and we go to the Super Bowl. So like, yes, personal, personally, all right. To like watch that pass me by from the sidelines, right? Like to sit there. I mean, I was still team captain. I remember again, like the most devastating story, like the only time I stepped on the field for the Super Bowl was for the coin toss, like how embarrassing that was. And again, to like watch that pass me by from the sidelines, like after all, like, the turmoil that I'd kind of been through. And a lot of us— and that was the other thing, like, again, like, I wasn't the only one that went through it. Like, Frank Gore had gone through it, and Joe Staley had gone through it, and like, all my, you know, Patrick Willis, like, all my buddies had. And again, here we are at the Super Bowl, the pinnacle. And so, like, I was so torn, right? Like, my own personal emotions about, like, what had happened and my career But this is a team game, right? Like, and all my amazing, you know, like my best friends professionally, we're at the mountaintop, right? And we're inches away from summiting. And so like, could I like put that aside? Like, could I be a good teammate? And again, I love football and this is like the, you know, what I regard as like the best team sport. And like, again, like, you know what I'm saying? Like that.

Yeah.

And then by the way, then the hardest part is like you go home and my wife is like, you know, of course, of course.

You know what I'm saying?

Like, my family is like so angry, right? Because they're like, got my back. But then I'm like, no, no, I don't need— I don't want to hear that. Like, I don't want that right now. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not— I got a job to do, right? And I got it. Like, um, and so that, that was the hardest part of all of that, right? Like, I, I think again Could I be happy? And again, I still had a role on the team. It just was different, right? And my ego and could I check that? But very like, I feel like I got pulled in so many directions, Ravi. Like it was very hard and I didn't know. I think it was hard from a compass standpoint. Like I'll never forget media day at the Super Bowl and like just like feeling suffocated by cameras and microphones. Right. They all wanted to like create controversy in that moment leading up to the Super Bowl. Right. And like, it was hard. It was really hard.

Did you ever, did you ever think what could I have done different? Because usually in a devastating moment, it's not one play. Okay. That's like the point that I want to make for Glue Guy Nation is like that game was not won or lost on Caden Boozer's turnover. It was, it was a loose ball that they didn't get at the 13-minute mark. It was putting UConn in the bonus with 12 minutes to go. It was, you know, giving up an offensive rebound 3. Like, and so if you play the game, if you're in the game, like you understand, like you don't overreact to like the last play. Yeah. We would love for Cade to make that play, but there's not one guy who said we lost this game because of Cade. No, no, no. Nobody said nobody. Yeah, exactly. It's usually a random play along the way. So did you ever like pinpoint those random plays, Alex, when you, when you're feeling it, be like, damn, if I would have made this throw or if I didn't have this fumble, like maybe that's me.

For sure in the moments. And then again, especially in like a singular game and to go back to like playoffs, like I can't get my last playoff game, you know, like I lost at New England in the divisional round and like, it's like, oh, it was a close game. Like one score game. We lost, I lost to Pittsburgh at home and Kansas City and it was like a 2-point game. And it's like at the end, they're like, oh, just one play. My last game as a Chief, again, we're crushing the Titans. We're up like 21 points at halftime, and Marcus Mariota throws a touchdown pass to himself, right? And like, again, like, they're like these moments. And to your point, like, they were like a comedy of errors that, like, again, we like melted down and how they want it. But like, when you're on the team, it's like, well, man, if I'd have just made that one play, right? Like, maybe things would have been differently. And again, I think that's your part of it. And you just don't know when that play is going to happen and what it's going to look like. And you just are haunted by those memories. Yes. Yeah. You just like, again, you just replay them over and over and over again.

But I think that that like, honestly, man, I think that's a good thing of the what could I have done differently? I think that's an important step to getting to like going and working at it, right? Because it's sort of, I think that there's like a powerful thing of like, I don't want to feel like that again. Well, Alex, your face tells me you don't know.

I just like, I think when I'm here now, like what, how I think of this, and I heard this interesting thing kind of, it was kind of like on time, about time. And I really feel like for me, you know, so 5 years out of football, like it is flown by. Like my 5 years since I retired is just like flown by. And I was like kind of trying to think why. And not that there hasn't been like, there's been a, like a lot has happened in those 5 years, good and bad. But like, and I think this is the amazing thing about sports and heightened experiences, but like, If you think about these very big moments, dramatic moments, right? Like again, for Caden and all of Duke, this was obviously unfortunate and it's like this big trough. But like, I think when you have these heightened moments, they really give you perspective in time, if that makes sense. Almost like, you know, like if you can think about like as time's moving along, you have these big posts, right? That like time hangs on. And like if there's a bad one and a low point, then it comes down. But like, they give you like good perspective on time. And I think in that moment, like things can tend to move, you appreciate it more maybe, I guess, because it is so heightened. And then like, if it, like having stopped playing and I feel like it's been, it is like flown by so fast. And like, I wonder it's because like there aren't as many of those like heightened moments.

Yeah, that's interesting.

Like, does that make sense?

Yeah.

And it's 'cause you don't have 'em, like you don't have these big heightened moments to like kind of like, Yeah, but this is where sports is so weird, guys.

Like, you guys have— like, we've talked about this, but it's like a compressed life in 60 minutes or a compressed life in 40 minutes. And like, it is hard for non-sports to replicate those moments, you know what I'm saying? And so it is different. Like, you know what's so interesting? I was just thinking about what you said though, and I think about, uh, your point on, um, each player and how whatever— one thing I will tell you in my life that I think is like positive is when I've had like really hard times and like professionally, like, let's say, it actually has like, brought me closer to certain people. You know what I'm saying? Because like in getting through whatever your hard time is, certain people show up for you in ways that you're like, oh, wow, like, you know what I'm saying? And even people that you know and love, like, you know, will be there. Like I was, I'm thinking of, I'm like embarrassed to say this. But I remember one time, like professionally, I got like a real stomach punch. And I remember like sitting with Avni and like, I don't know, she's my wife. You like want to like, act like you kind of got it. And like, I did not have it. You know what I'm saying? And so I'm kind of, I'm kind of, I just remember like, kind of like, I mean, I'm like the cartoon, like my shoulders are down, my eyes are tearing up. Like I got nothing. I'm not like a cool man in this moment of like, you know, I got us right. Like, I definitely did not like have us. And she just kind of like, she like didn't need me to act like I had it. She just kind of let me be like, really down for some period of time. And then like, we like got through it and like she helped and whatever. But I like, I'm very grateful that in that moment, it wasn't like pick my chin up like, hey, man, get it together, man. You know, she just kind of was like, yeah, this sucks. Like, and then it was like, made us even closer. And then I think about like, you guys have heard me, but like, Carl, you know, being like, I got you, man. Like, don't worry about it. Like, you know, as long as I'm here, you're here. And like, those are like forever moments that you get And they think they come sometimes when shit is really bad, you know. And so I would imagine that, like, yeah, I don't know, you know, Shane, I hope this is true for Coach Shire, right? Like, maybe when he wins his, you know, he will hearken back to some of the moments. And maybe it'll be the message you send him too, of just like, hey man, I remember in that moment, like, you know, you kind of helping me, you know. And I hope that he has experiences like that. And Alex, I would imagine in your various ones that I saw you nodding of like, who are the people that like brought you back?

Well, I think like as you were talking, like the thing that like hit me, and I guess is what I was saying, when I think back to those times now, right? Like, I actually like these moments of heartbreak for me personally, like when I do look back, like I, I look back at them pretty fondly, right? Like, you know, it's like so old man to say, because they suck when you're in it. You have to like invest so much and sacrifice so much. But like, I do think in the end, like, again, going to perspective is like, like, if I wish I could go back and like have a, like, some level of gratefulness for those like times, right? Like, again, to just like be competing like that and, and for the moment, right? Like, even the bad part of it, right? Like, the experience almost, you know, it's, it honestly, it's, it is one of my favorite quotes, it's the, it's the man in the arena, right? It's Teddy Roosevelt, right? Like, like, they just— like, not many people get the chance to just like be out there, good or bad, right? Like, to toe the line. And, and you don't— it's hard when you're young and you're in it because you just— there's so much unknown ahead and you don't know if you're ever going to get another chance or another experience. But like, I wish I could go back and like have some level of that kind of perspective, you know?

And like you know, to the point, like, that is where you sharpen your sword. That is where you develop edge. Yeah, right, through, through partake.

I like that.

And, uh, both of my championships that I, I won the first time— actually, all three. I'll never forget, um, I, I lost my first playoff game ever as a high school freshman, uh, at Detroit Country Day, and we played Oak Park, who was ranked— we were probably number 1 in the state, they were number 3 in the state. So this is the first game in the districts, right? So whoever's going to win is going to make a run, and we lose. And I just— I sat in the shower of Oak Park High School and I cried. I cried in my jersey, and I stayed there for an hour, and my parents just let me cry. And, um, after the game, my wife Heidi— we, we, we weren't dating at the time— she's like, can I come over and, uh, do you want to go for a walk? She know what to say. Like, I was— and I said Nope, nope. Let me wallow. And the edge we came back with the next year was like, I ain't going out like that. I ain't going out like that. And it was the same feeling I had. We lost my junior year to Florida in the Sweet 16. And I came back that next year and I said, I'm burning the ship, boys. I'm burning the ship. All right. There's going to be no doubt. If we— I mean, they're going to die or we're going to win. All right. There is no in between. Right. And the edge that I had my senior year, and you can ask my teammates about it, I was not the easiest captain to play for. I was petulant, I was demanding, but that was an edge that was developed through, you know, 3 years of heartbreak. Pain. Pain. So I was psycho. I was like galvanized. And then, you know, when I joined the Heat in 2012, you know, that team was galvanized by losing in a very, very public way to the Dallas Mavericks. And I'll never forget, like, we were playing. It was a great story. It was a great story by Pat Riley. We were playing Dallas on opening day of the next season. It was after the lockout. And he sat us down on the floor and he said, just remember, you know, these guys have your championship. You know, they drank your champagne. They pissed in your streets. They took your women home. That should have been you. Never forget that. And the edge of that team before that game was, I'd never felt a group of grown men like that, like angry and that pissed off. And like, I just felt the motivation. I looked around and I'm like, oh man, we win it. We go out, we smack Dallas and the rest is history. And so like, as you know, thinking about Shire, thinking about Caden Boozer, thinking about all those guys on that team, like, man, you cannot develop that edge, right? You know, with, with, with champagne and roses. You can't, you can't, you can't sort of like fluff your way into having an edge and being, you know, I think, well, totally.

And I think like you hit the nail on the head. I think the only way to get on the front foot, ready to go back to this, is like, if you're all of Duke basketball and like Caden especially, is like, you have to almost think that maybe this is like just what I needed, right? Like maybe this is like the best thing for me. Maybe this is the best thing for us. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think you have to like, get yourself from a mindset.

You'll never say that was good for me. And, you know, in retrospect, you will, but you'll never say, oh, this is, this is good for me. Fuck that. Like, no one wants to hear that.

No, but like, no, no, I'm saying this is the medicine. Like, to have the confidence, to have the confidence to know that you're going to get, you're going to get to the other side of it where you're going to, you know what I'm saying?

Like, that's why I think it's powerful. Like, I'm not feeling like that again. I think that's that's important. You know, Shane, what's, you know, what's crazy to me is like you actually were on both sides of this anecdote that I have on this topic. So like, you know, the Ray Allen shot that he hit, you know, in the finals against the Spurs, right? Like you guys had the opposite of the heartbreak in that moment of like the surprise. I mean, like what the fuck? Like truly like, like one of the single craziest, like, you know, sequences in NBA history. Yes. Right. And you know, I mean, you think about what the Spurs must've felt like, obviously it wasn't game 7, but like, I can't even imagine how they like played another game afterwards. Like, we had it. We had it. Yep. I remember reading this interview where Greg Popovich is interviewed preseason. It's like a Sports Illustrated article, right? And, you know, the person's like, have you watched the game? And he's like, oh yeah, I watch it all the time, you know. And he comes out and he like, he starts recreating the shot. He's like, you got to give this guy credit. He catches it. He knows exactly how many steps to take. And he kind of like, he's really leaning into it for the team of like, Yes, this happened. And we didn't lose because Ray Allen hit that shot. We lost because we gave it up, you know, this, this, this, and this. And like this year though, like we ain't doing that. And then that year they obviously were pretty good.

Kicked our ass in the finals.

That they developed from that was crazy. And it was like evident. I don't know that I've seen more beautiful basketball than what they played that year. Right. But I agree with you. I don't think that they could have developed that. you know, without the pain and the fucking, you know, heartbreak of—

and that was the difference in the series. It was 1-1 going back to Miami. And no one remembers that in 2014, it was 1-1. And we were going back to Miami for 2 games and the edge that those guys came out with, we didn't, we couldn't match, couldn't match. So it like, not that Winnie made us soft. I think we were fatigued at that point mentally and we weren't willing to grind. And so that's, that's like the opposite of like what we're talking about here, right? Winning does make you soft and it makes you like question, like, do I really want to make the effort? You know, the Spurs did, we didn't. And that's why we got our ass busted.

But Alex, I'll tell you, I actually am not sure I totally agree with you on the, like, your point on like, and just like in the spirit of trying to debate it, I think you are unique in where you get to like, maybe this is just what I needed on bad things. Like I actually don't really know a lot of other people like you on this topic genuinely. And you have been able to say that to me on some pretty hard hard stuff. And I'm kind of like, that is not where my brain goes. My brain goes like, I got to deal with this. You know what I'm saying? And like, I'm gonna deal with this, like, fuck that, I'm gonna make sure I figure it out. But I actually think that you are very unique in like, getting to like, in the moment saying it's positive or close to the moment saying it's positive.

Like, and again, I don't think I had this a long time ago. But I do firmly believe this. And I do firmly believe it is the, it is the Ryan Holiday, it's like the obstacle is the way, right? Like, and I think you guys are saying that and I like a little bit, you're misinterpreting. Like, it doesn't need to feel good. You don't need to like do it with a smile on your face. Like, again, heartbreak is hard, but like, I do think to have like the confidence to have gone back and been like, no, fuck that. You know what? I'm going to be better because of this, right? Like, I think that takes like some stones. Like, do you know what I'm saying? That like, You know what, next year I'm going to be on the mountaintop and it's going to be like, because of this. I think though, like again, when adversity or heartbreak comes, like what does it do to you? Right. And again, how do you process it?

Why do so many teams who lose the Super Bowl have subpar years the next year in NFL? That's a very strange phenomenon. We're talking about heartbreak, but like there's an unusually high amount of teams that you would think are contenders from year to year. Have very subpar years the next year after losing a Super Bowl.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's, I think you, you kind of hit it like it's how they process heartbreak, right? Like to, to have sacrificed that much. Right. And again, there's so many variables and things that are outside of your control and they finally bounced your way that year and you get to the Super Bowl. You've won a champ, you know, an AFC or NFC championship respectively, and then lost on the biggest stage in sports. Right? And like, it's a long year, the hangover from it, right? We talk about that, like the hangover from, from getting so close to like summiting Everest, you know, so to speak, and then, and kind of failing, you know, really again, this, this failure. And it's so public, like, I think teams don't process it right from the top down. And again, I do think it takes a tremendous leader to like spin it to get back to the front foot, Ravi, like to your point of like, how can How, right? Like, I think you have to be very proactive against it. Like, I don't think it's something where, like, you can just let it go unsaid and let this thing sink in.

I think that is a very good point. I think you got to own it because the team is a football—

to your point, like Shane, it disperses. You still have a party that night, okay? Because both teams have planned a party, right? And so it's a massive party, by the way. Like, it's like the who's who of musicians. And you just lost this game. You know, the other team's like really doing it right. And it's like, hey, we won the championship, but we just lost. Like, and then, and then boom, you don't see each other for months. Right? Like there is no real closure, I think is part of the problem. And like flipping it, you know, again, like—

To your point, you know, talking about flipping it, I don't remember what Coach K said after the game. But both years we had heartbreak in '98, '99. The first meeting of the next year, we had a funeral.

Yeah.

Right.

I think this is so important.

No, it's true.

It's a huge deal.

It's true.

You know, shut up. Hold on. This is real.

Oh, yes. Shut up. You have a eulogy and we are going to bury last year season because nothing that happened last year can help us today and going—

that's pretty good.

We're gonna learn lessons, right? But we, we actually had a ritual. It was a ritual.

Yeah.

Okay, that is done. That is dead. It is no more. Okay. And so talking about it, thinking about it, living in that moment, having doubts of whether I'm good— like, that, that does not help us at all. So we are going to bury it today. Today.

Hold on, like, take us through this ritual real quick. Like, I love this.

Yeah.

I've never heard that before.

It was one of the first team meetings, right? And climbing back on that horse and the goals of the year. But he said, "Look, we can't even talk about this year without burying last year. Okay? We lost in the national championship game. We lost in the Elite Eight. It was horrible. Can't help us anymore. It's done its job. We've learned all we can from that. All right? It's time to bury it. And we're not going to talk about it anymore." All right. It's in the past and we're only looking at today. How are we getting better today? And like, it sounds corny, but like having a funeral—

I think corny works.

Having a funeral, having a funeral, having, you know, saying a eulogy over, you know, the season that got away from you, the game that you lost and having a ritual is something that I tell, you know, companies all the time. And if you have a terrible quarter, if you have— you lose a big client, if you have a disastrous product launch, whatever it is, have a funeral. Right. Get up there, bring flowers, you know, lay it at the altar of the water cooler. Right. And it allows people— or the water cooler— it allows people just to have that moment to acknowledge what happened one last time. And you move on. Right. And versus ignoring it, you know, the elephant in the room, just acknowledge it, move on.

This is really interesting. I was on the other side of something like this. And again, I do think it speaks to the idea of leadership and being proactive. In 2014, we, the Patriots came to Kansas City and we on like Sunday, it was Sunday Night Football or Monday Night, nationally televised game. We just beat the brakes off them. This was Tom Brady. This is like their heyday. I mean, we, I don't know what the final was. It was one of the most lopsided. Brady got pulled in the second half. They put Garoppolo in like it was just an absolute beatdown. Okay. On the national stage. And this was the famous quote after the game. Belichick steps up to the mic. And answered every question this way and was like, we're on to Cincinnati. Hey, coach, what happened tonight? Tell us what— we're on to Cincinnati. Hey, is Tom Brady going to be your starter next week? It was just like, we're on to Cincinnati. And like, like buried the tape. We're not even watching this game. There's nothing good to take away from it. You know what I'm saying? Like, we're just moving forward. They won the Super Bowl that year. Like, I like, you know what I'm saying? Like, it was this. And again, it was, I think we played them kind of middle of the year. And I just thought it was an interesting leadership perspective, right? Like, it was obviously very intentional, you know what I'm saying? Like, for sure.

But this is where I think, going back, there's a lot of stuff. This is— we talked a lot of different things, Alex. I think you are right that I misinterpreted your point on like, maybe this is the best thing that happened to me, because I think the point for me is like, I take so much pride in like bringing joy, right? Literally, like, fucking note card on my desk, you know, bring joy. That I think it is notable to me that when I go through something hard, my first reaction is not like, man, I'm happy I'm going through something hard. Like, it is— I'm like, I can't feel like this again. Like, it is more painful. It is more like, fuck that. Like, I'm not going back there. Like, I, you know what I'm saying? And so I think I did misinterpret what you said of like, I don't feel the joy in the moment of the bad thing. I think later, I'm sort of like, yeah, like, damn, that made me better. That brought this edge, you know, all delayed.

Yeah, for sure.

It's delayed. Definitely. It's definitely delayed. Yeah, I think, Shane, the thing that you said that's interesting to me, and same thing for you, Alex, on like the different leadership styles, you know, I don't know if somebody has to own it. I don't know what they have to do. What I do believe very strongly is you have to have like a look forward mission that references the fact that the past isn't what matters. Like there's 3 things that come to mind. One, like I remember when Duke won in '91, Coach K went through this whole thing of like, we're not defending a championship, we're trying to win another one. Like, They can't take the other one that we've got. There's no, like, there's no defending it. We just have to go win another one. And either we win it or we don't. But like, I thought that was cool. I think the second thing I liked was Phil Jackson has this thing of like, you're not a success or a failure. You're only a success or a failure in the moment that you are a success or failure. Like, don't try to label yourself based on what you did before either way. Like, it's right now. What are you? And, you know, and I thought that, that to me is like very empowering. Because you're not like protecting this past version of yourself. And then the last thing that I really liked was at one point when we were going through some like bad shit at Instacart and Shane, I remember that just on like bad stuff, you and I got closer because you're like, hey man, you got it. Like, you know, rather than like being afraid to talk to me, but I, which a lot of people were. But I remember this guy, Chris Cox, who worked at Meta, still works at Meta. He came to our all hands. And we were kind of like, we tried to get him to like pump up the team. And this dude was like, you know what? I think the most important thing is to acknowledge if you're in a crisis. And let me tell you something, you guys are in a crisis. Whoa. Like, you know, because remember we had been like trying to hide, right? But we had been trying to hide from it. He was like, own it. You gotta own it. You know, you're in it. Like, and you can get out of it, but you got, first thing you gotta do is you gotta own it, which is obviously different than Belichick's, you know, thing. But I thought that was really cool, like, leadership of like, don't lie to each other about what's going on. It ain't great. Okay, what are you gonna do about it? And that to me was like something that helped me get on the front foot, which is like, instead of trying to pretend like we weren't in it, it was like, no, no, no, you're in it, baby. Like, now you got to get out of it. And so I always thought those are different forms of leadership, but they all to me get you back to front foot.

Do you think Those are great stories. Do you think outside noise helps or hurts in this situation? So when you had that moment, you know, all the analysts, you know, all the talking heads on CNBC, you know, all sports talk radio, all the people on social media, you know, talking about, you know, losing the game to the Titans, Marcus Mariota, like, the role of the public noise. Is it good? Is it bad? Is it indifferent? I'm curious to hear your views.

Alex, you have a view. I have a view. Mine's different. Obviously, the size of the public noise is different in my world, but I have a view.

Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I like my first instinct is obviously to say, like, I think the noise is never good, right? Like, the noise is always just a distraction. Right. However, the heightened noise is what makes the wound deeper. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's also what maybe makes this more profound of an experience to go through, and your rebound may be more significant because of it. Right. Like, so it's hard to say, like, again, like, as painful as those your freshman and sophomore year were, Shane, right? Like, do you get to— do you get to your junior and senior year without those, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, that's— I don't know. Yeah, totally, right? That's like such a fair question to think about, right? Like, and is— I just— Sam Darnold, is Sam Darnold Sam Darnold without the beginning of his career? I don't know, you know? Like, I, um, as bad as it was. So like, again, my first instinct is like, no, I hate— I hate outside noise. It's just a giant distraction. Obviously it's a huge part of professional sports. Um, and it's like actually something earned, right? Like, again, like the more noise that's around you, usually it's because the stage is bigger and your expectations are higher and you're doing better. But, uh, it's just that much tougher to combat, right? From, from a standpoint of like eliminating distractions.

So see, I think, Shane, I think it's very interesting, and I'll give you both of you guys credit on this dimension, but I think that, um, obviously it's a distraction, but I think if it brings you, your actual team closer cause you have some shared experience of like, we all know that's bullshit. Like, forget those people. Like, I think if it's a, if it's something that helps your actual team get closer, I think it can be good. I also think if you think about like toughening up and getting edge, like you guys are tougher than a lot of people on this dimension because you dealt with a lot of outside noise. You had to deal with people saying stuff about you and you have to learn to get over it. So you are more trained at managing your psyche. Do you see what I'm saying? In the face of pretty hard stuff and public stuff than most people are. And actually that makes you stronger. And I guarantee you that, like, use an example, like let's say someone you love comes up to you and sort of like, I'm having trouble dealing with like what this person is saying about me. You actually have credibility of like, hey, look, I got it. You know, I understand. And like, here's how I dealt with it. So I think my real answer is like, I think it's like most things, which is like kind of sucks. But I think if it makes you closer with your group, that can be good. And if it makes you tougher, which I think it did for both of you guys, you know, and to one, one billionth of the extent it has made me tougher, I think it's good, you know, because it sharpens you up. And it makes you realize like, none of this shit matters. You know what matters? Like this group, you know?

Yeah, I, yeah, I think the, the edge that you have determines your reaction to the outside noise, not the outside noise that determines what if you have that. Does that make sense? And like my favorite edge story and the outside noise story was it was Hubie Brown. And Hubie was still the greatest storyteller in basketball, maybe in sports. And he took over our team and we were bad, like we won 23 games and he was going to change the culture. And he laid out exactly how we're going to do it. And I'll never forget as long as I live, he said, "This is what's going to happen, Jack. Right now, they're all up in the ivory tower." and he's pointing to like Jerry West, our GM. All right. He's like, they're all up in the ivory tower and they're whispering to each other. I knew they couldn't do it. You know, they're no good. They don't have a chance. But I'll tell you what, Jack, we're going to put this together after the all-star break. We're going to be one of the toughest teams in the league. And they're all going to come down from the ivory tower and slap us on the back and say, we knew you could do it. We're behind you. He's like, always remember, Jack, He's like, it's just us. It's just us in the circles. That's all that matters. Still one of the greatest, the greatest story. He's talking trash to our GM, Jerry West, you know, rest in peace. It was so true. It was just the guys in the locker room. Like that's all that matters in this. And it doesn't matter what anyone says. And it just matters what we say in our huddle. And I'll never forget that as long as I live.

I think that just us part is the best part about it, right? Like that's the point. It's so much better articulated the way he said it. If outside noise can help you deepen the just us, that is amazing. That's good. Like the depth of the just us is cool, you know, like, and back to like the Glue Guys founding, like, dude, that's the thing. Like there's teams everywhere. Like I like really, that's why to me, like the just us and like the 5 of us in our family is a huge deal of just like, yo guys, like, remember, we got nobody, it's just us, you know, like What were you gonna say, Alex?

No, I think it's a combination of both though. Like Shane, to your point of like, does the edge come before the adversity, right? Like, is that something that like, hey, people that just have edge and then they go through adversity and they come out better? Like, I don't know. Like, you can't tell me that like Aaron Rodgers is Aaron because he was overlooked for so long. The guy who had no scholarship offers, had to go to a JC, has been under like, right, the draft, he sits in the green room for 4 hours, right? Then he has to go sit behind Brett. Like, I don't know if he is as, like, right, as edgy if he doesn't sit in that environment for so long, right? Like that they like made that, like Josh Allen, I think same way. Tom Brady becoming the 6th round pick and pick 198 and so overlooked. I don't know if he's, right? Like almost as like psycho about football and proving people wrong if he doesn't sit in that environment.

Shane got pissed when Steve Young was acting like he walked in through the front door of a ball.

Remember?

Well, you know, you, you've been good the whole time. You don't understand. And Shane was like getting fiery. Like the vein was starting to pop out a little bit of like, no, no, you don't think I had to fight?

Totally.

Sorry to interrupt.

But like, I think the team— no, but like, again, I mentioned individuals there, but like, I do think it's the same for teams, right? Like, again, and I think that's the part where leadership comes involved. And I think even glue guys, right? Like, so when adversity happens, can you keep a team cohesively together and get them on the front foot and get them looking forward and get them to like harness like the speech, like us versus everybody? Can we band together? Right? Like, I think those are all tools from a leadership perspective, the funeral, like burying the tape, right? Like, again, I think it's harder to get a team, a group, or an organization together through adversity. And I think that's— but if they can and come out the other side, I think they're better for it. But again, I think that's kind of the crux. I think when you're an individual, right, like, you have, you have more control of your mindset, right, obviously, and can pivot and adjust quicker.

Tougher to do leadership, I guess, right?

It's leadership.

Yeah, I was about to say that's leadership, like that.

And it's hard Right. But like, I think though, one thing I do think, and maybe this is fighting against the, like, you know, you're only a success or failure in the moment that you're a success or failure. I do think the knowledge that you're tough, that's pretty good. It's pretty valuable. Do you see what I'm saying? Because having gone through anything, just like knowing, like, yep, like, I'm tough, I'll figure it out. I think that's like, you know, truly, like, you think about things you give to your kids, you know, like you want and you can't give it, you have to earn it, you know, but like them having the feeling of like, no, I'm tough. Like, I'll figure it out. There's not something that's going to happen that's going to make it like knock me out. I think that experience and that feeling is so good to walk through life with. And, you know, you really hope the people you love have it.

Yeah. I think they're transferable. Like, Ravi, to your point, like, I think having like I think obviously gone through heightened experiences with football, gone through heightened experiences with like my leg transferring to other things. Like I think there's a callousness that I have, like, yeah, in a good way. Like I, like, yeah, not callousness. I've developed a callus is what I'm trying to say. Right. Like some thick skin and perspective. Um, however, like to go back to football though, and I always was so interested in this cuz I'll never forget, like again, as a rookie, I was so nervous before games. Like so nervous, right? Like a wreck. And, and I always wondered though, and I saw I was fortunate enough to play like some amazing older guys and I always wondered like, when do you get beyond this? Right? Like when, when does it happen? You know, and I'll never forget like talking to like older guys and again later, like I can't, I'll never forget like Justin Smith was this just a stud of studs, right? Like this guy went All-Pro defensive line and D tackle and D end just like this like beast. And I remember talking to him and he had to be in like year 13. He'd been an All-Pro. Like, this guy's unbelievable. And like, still got nervous before games. And he's like, like, it never, it never leaves, right? Like, and for me again, like, like playing till the end, like it is still heightened. Like it still is the thing.

Yeah.

You know, it still means a lot, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, Like for you right now, like it, it's still, it's a lot, right? Like it's hard. It's not easy.

It's like, dude, I think, I think the thing I was thinking though was there's two points that come to mind. Like one, you guys know Greg LeMond is the Tour de France winner.

Yeah.

Greg LeMond has this great quote. Someone asked him, I think he'd won like two or three of them. And someone's like, now is the, is it easier now that, you know, you've won a bunch? And he has this amazing quote. He's like, it never gets easier. You just go faster.

Yeah.

And I was like, whoa, like, what an amazing quote about like everything, you know what I'm saying? Which is just like, because he just like, I'm gonna push it harder. I'm gonna push it hard. I'm not gonna let it get easier. That was interesting. I think Alex, like, yeah, for sure. Like, you know, it's definitely like, stressful, you know, for me right now in like the new gig. I think that one of the things I like aspire to be is someone who's like good at dealing with stress. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, I think even if you look at like companies, I think like, I saw this senior person at Coinbase the other day, and just like was at something, and she was there. And I like told her, I was like, I'm really impressed with the way you guys like deal with like, difficult situations. I was like, in my mind, like Coinbase as a company has like a 30 resting heart rate, you know. And I think she was really happy with that characterization. Because I think it's earned. It's like, they have been through a lot of stuff. And they're like, pretty good. And like, kind of, you know what, like, we're gonna figure it out, you know. And so I am definitely feeling what you said. It is definitely heightened. I think one of the things I'm trying to be is like someone who's good at— relatively good at— like, you know what I'm saying? Like managing it, just you make good decisions through it and all that kind of stuff. Yep.

For sure.

Deal. One of my last points was, you know, going back to your point about man in the arena, Alex, you know, he's you know, I would tell those guys at Duke, you know, to lose a big game, you got to be in the big game, right?

Yeah. Everybody wishes they could be there. Everybody else wishes they could be there.

You know, and I tell people, I say, you know, look, the truest thing I heard of sports is that the further you are away from the game, the easier the game becomes. Okay. From your couch, that's a pretty easy pass for Caden Boozer to make. If you're on the court, when you got, you know, 7-footers and athletic guys and time pressure and historical pressure on you, it ain't so easy, Bob, right? And so the further you are physically, mentally, spiritually away from the actual play happening on the court, guess what? The game becomes very, very easy. And that's one thing I try to, even as an old man now watching, that you try to remember. Like, it's hard. It's hard to execute. It's hard to win big games.

Here's to like Hopefully a year from now, let's go, we're, we're filming an episode on how this year was, you know, got them to, to a championship next year. You know, that, that Coach Shire and that entire team can kind of harness this heartbreak, right? Like, and, you know, and somehow harness this heartbreak.

Alex, yeah, well done. Yeah.