Paul Goldstein on Beating Djokovic, Coaching Stanford & Building Competitors - [Glue Guys, Ep. 71]

You are the last player on earth to beat the Joker in the first round of a Grand Slam.

That was in 2006. During that time, I have retired from playing professional tennis, had 3 children, worked 7 years in the corporate world before starting to coach, have now coached my 12th year at Stanford. During all that time, he still hasn't lost in the first round of a Grand Slam.

I'm really happy today that we have my friend Paul Goldstein on Glue Guys. Paul is the head tennis coach at Stanford, head men's tennis coach at Stanford, and also has a pretty amazing tennis resume. He was a 4-time All-American at Stanford, a 4-time national champion at Stanford, and then was, I think, reached as high as number 58 in the global rankings, if I'm not mistaken, and was the only player in the top 100 who had a college degree, which is kind of cool and interesting. Had an awesome tennis career, beat Djokovic in a major, something that we should talk about at some point, and then had a career as a tech exec before going back, you know, and being the Stanford coach. But in addition to that, he's a very good friend of mine. I have the pleasure of coaching Paul's son Charlie on our basketball team.. And so I've gotten to know him in that dimension. And it's such a pleasure to have you today, Paul. Thanks for coming.

You guys, I really appreciate you guys having me. It's, it's really my privilege. Shane and Alex, I've admired you guys from afar for many years. You know, as a coach now, Alex, we talk about resilience with our guys often, and how important that is to competitive success. And I don't know that there's a better example of resiliency than you. And Shane, tennis is a real— especially college tennis is unique in that it's such an individual sport. But then you get to collegiate tennis and for the first time these guys are on a team. And so we talk a lot about that transition with our guys and we talk about what it means to be part of something bigger than just yourself. And I don't know that anyone in the course of their competitive career embodied that better than you. And so again, I've been an admirer from afar. And Ravi, I've had the privilege of being an admirer of yours from up close. The other thing we talk about with our guys quite a bit is, you know, the skill sets and characteristics that you develop and learn in sport benefit you for the rest of your life. And I don't know that anyone embodies that better than you. And I have to say, in my profession as a coach, it's been a pleasure and a learning experience for me to watch you coach. And I try to utilize some of the lessons I see with you coaching Charlie and his teammates and what I do. So I appreciate you guys having me.

I mean, I think, I think we're done, right?

First question is for Ravi. Do you feel nervous coaching Charlie knowing you have 100%, you know, someone on the sideline with the pedigree that Paul has judging every move, every play call you have, every, every interaction with a coach? Do you feel nervous?

Yes, I do. And I did. But I'll tell you, and it's so funny you mentioned that, Shane, because, you know, I met Paul through Charlie because Charlie was an opponent on our kids' school basketball team when Charlie played on the other team. He was great. And he's scrappy. He's good. He knocks down clutch shots. And it's just like, man, it'd be so fun to have him on our team. And so, you know, we got in touch with Paul and another parent, Dave, and we're sort of like, hey, like, you know, what if we put our kids together and put together a team. And I was nervous, to your point of like, and Paul, like, I'll be one of the coaches, you know, how do you think about that? But what Paul did, which I think was, you know, again, lesson for youth sports parents out there, and this guy's like a legit coach, right? And a former professional. He doesn't, he just kind of lets us do it. And then he sends really nice notes from time to time of like, hey, man, Charlie's having a really good experience. He's having a lot of fun. I really appreciate the fact that you guys are making sure that he's enjoying this and like playing hard. And I would say that the funniest thing about it, Shane, is he just has crazy good perspective on like, you know, what it is to actually coach at this age. Like, I've never gotten a suggestion for a play call from Paul, but he's always telling me that, you know, he appreciates that we're making it fun and that the kids play hard. The thing I will tell you is, Paul, I want to start in a kind of a weird place for you, okay? Which is when people ask me what my favorite sporting experience that I've ever been to is, I think my answer now is the tennis match that we watched with Stanford against Wake Forest men's tennis this year, which is an odd answer. I've had the privilege of going to some cool stuff and I really think like, so I came with the boys, you invited us. It was, I think, the grand opening of the new tennis facility.. And I have to tell you, it was truly one of the coolest things I've ever seen. Can you like take us there? Tell us about that day. And I want the whole audience to know why it was so interesting. And then I want to tell them why it was so cool for me. But tell us about that and explain college tennis.

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. So you're right, we were dedicating our new brand new tennis stadium. We've been construction on this project for about 2 years or so. We were hoping to get in in January of this last year, this calendar year, January of '26, ended up not getting in until early April, which was just in time for our final regular season home weekend of the year. And we happened to be hosting in the very first match the defending NCAA champions, Wake Forest. And the way college tennis works is one match between Stanford and Wake Forest, you start with 3 doubles matches, which are each one set each. And playing simultaneously. And if you win 2 of those 3, you only get 1 point, followed by 6— 5-minute break followed by 6 singles matches played simultaneously.

Um, the simultaneous, guys, is one of the cooler sports experiences ever. Just like 6 simultaneous matches of singles, like intense. Anyway, go ahead, Paul.

Yeah, and each of those are worth 1 point, so 7 cumulative points in a college tennis match. The first gets to 4, and you abandon the other matches, the match stops. Our doubles started and we actually had 7 match points. So 7 opportunities to clinch this doubles point. And it's only 1 point, but there's a lot of momentum 'cause you're playing doubles first and then you go into singles. The difference between needing to win 4 outta 6 singles or just being able to split the singles to win the match and get to 4 points. And so we have 7 match points, don't get it done. We go out for singles and keep in mind, Wake beat us in the final 4 last year.

They kind of have our number recently.

But we've got, it's a night match, we've got a great crowd and we lose the first 2 matches to come off of the court, we lose. So, we're down 3-0 with a chance. So, we lose one more match, it's over. 4 matches still on the court, we need to win all 4. And in college tennis, you'd be shocked how in an individual sport, how much momentum plays into it. Even though there are 6 individual singles matches, going on because they're played right next to each other. You know, guys are sort of pumping each other up, very much an advantage to be playing at home. And we're down 3-0. One of our guys is down a break in the third. We're on the verge of losing a match within the next 5 minutes. And all of a sudden, one guy gets it done on court number 2 and another guy gets it done on court number 4. We're building momentum. And we got a guy on court 6 who's a freshman. Who'd been coming off of injuries, so hadn't sort of performed his best so far this year. And he goes down 5-2, double break in the third set. If you're familiar with tennis, you know, it's an advantage to be serving. And so the other, his opponent is serving 5-2.

It's looking bleak, fellas. It's bleak.

Yeah.

Our guy needs to serve a break serve twice to stay in it and then get it done. And he just starts, he hangs in there. My favorite part of this match is, you know, in tennis, the emotional swings are kind of high and up and down, and it's very easy to get discouraged, right? And I'm on the changeover. So 5-2, it's an odd number. So it's a changeover. And I sit down and I'm talking to this guy. And he has every reason. His name is Jagger Leach. His mom, Lindsay Davenport, was the Grand Slam champion and former number one in the world. And Jacker's got every reason at this point to hang his head. And I say, listen, man, this guy's— you're playing good ball. This guy's playing good tennis. He's going to give us a look. He's going to give us a look. And it's, you know, coach speak. This guy had every right to be like, just roll his eyes at me. And he picks up his head, looks me in the eye. He says, well, if he does, coach, I'm going to be ready. And it was such a good response. And sure enough, this guy comes back, plays phenomenal tennis, wins 5 of the next 6 games, wins the breaker, and he clinches dogpile the whole thing. And so it was a really, really exciting match. And when tennis is good, it's great. It is great because it's this one-on-one, mano a mano thing. You see it in the slams. You know, you get to a 5th set and people talk about like in the stands, oh, you're not allowed to cheer in between points. That silence, like during a point is crazy. In terms of creating tension. And then you play the point where there's silence and then the point is over and people go nuts. And in college tennis, it happens even more. When tennis is good, and it's not always great, it's not always great, but when it's good, there's nothing like it.

This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow.

Shane, Ravi, and I have our dream jobs. We get to dig into what makes people better as leaders, teammates, and in life.

But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. That's where ServiceNow AI specialists come in. They just don't tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Case closed. Request handled. No extra work for you.

That way you and your team can focus on the work that matters.

Which for us, proving that the best thing you can do for yourself is make the people around you better. In true Glue Guy style.

To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. I came and watched you guys play Utah a couple years ago. Unfortunately, you guys beat my Utes, but very familiar with the college tennis scene. And it is, it's wild to see all these individual matches going alongside each other, right? Like, so are you allowed, because one of my favorite things about tennis is this idea, it's like the ultimate like toeing the line, right? Like as soon as the match starts and you're the player, like you're going out there and you're toeing the line and you are by yourself. There are no timeouts. There's not, right? Like your coach can't coach you technically. I mean, and you're just out there and you have to figure it out and you have to battle and the swings, the ups and downs, right? Like again, the strategy, how's my opponent playing me? Are you allowed in college? I guess I don't even know this. Are you allowed coaching? In the middle of the set?

Yeah, so traditional tennis is this sport where once you get out there, you're on an island and you're on your own and you gotta figure it out for yourself. And ultimately, that remains true even in sort of the modern version. And what I mean by that is, so in college tennis, you've always been permitted to coach. And so as long as you don't stop the tempo of play, you can even coach in between points, right? You got 20 seconds, you can say a quick word in between points. But oftentimes during the changeovers where, you know, they're sitting down for 90 seconds and you really get an opportunity to coach. So in college tennis, you've always been able to coach. They've loosened the rules for professional tennis as well. So whereas there is some coaching allowed, you guys may remember, I don't know, 8 or 9 years ago, Serena Williams in a prominent match got a coaching violation because someone from the box was giving her hand signals. That's now permitted. What happens in professional tennis is, you know, you change sides and your box is sitting on one side. They can talk to you during the match as long as you're on their side. So there's more coaching than there used to be in professional, but there's quite a bit in the college game.

Gotcha. And then I think this is like, I mean, you kind of mentioned it at the very beginning and it's something that I think's really interesting is this idea that obviously tennis, kind of the iconic individual sport, right? Like again, out there by yourself. Obviously there is doubles, but for the most part it's singles. And that you coach a team, right? Like you're, you're a team. You're taking these kids that have grown up their entire life, probably specializing and only really thinking about their own career. Many, in my understanding, right? Don't even go to like real high school, like in the sense of like brick and mortar high school, right? Like these kids are online, they're training so hard. They have such high aspirations for their tennis career. So these kids like, are very unique in that sense, right? Like they've been so hardline trying to reach their individual potential. And all of a sudden you're trying to bring a bunch of these guys together, right? Right. For, for a cause that again is bigger for themselves, for the Cardinals. I guess like I'm so interested in how that happens, right? Because you literally are starting from scratch like that. That just doesn't happen. There's probably not another, you know, sport in college that has to deal with that.

Yeah, I mean, you hit the nail on the head, Alex. Uh, tennis is somewhat unique because of the individual nature of it. I'm sure golf hits it a little bit as well, but the vast majority of the, um, Division I collegiate tennis players went to school online. We have someone coming in this fall, a recruit who— and I think it's the first recruit, uh, we've had come in in the last 7 or 8 years who went to a traditional brick-and-mortar school. Uh, everyone else, at least for portion of their high school career went to school online. And then it just allows you, the reason they go to school online is it allows you to travel. It allows you to, I mean, there is an international tennis circuit, which is just as sort of prolific in terms of the volume of play that as if you were a professional tennis player. I mean, you're traveling 25 to 30, you could travel 25 to 30 weeks a year as a junior, as an 18 and under. And so Going to school online enables you to do that and sort of complete your curriculum as a self-paced. And so that individual nature by virtue is, again, you're on a team for the first time, and it's a real challenge for us as a staff to try to create culture, help our team members understand that you are part of something for the first time bigger than yourself. You're playing for these teammates who are now going to become your brothers. You're playing for your school coaches. And there's a level of, I think, fulfillment and reward that comes from that. My experience has been with, you know, 40 years of tennis and playing as an individual, but my greatest joys on a tennis court were winning national championships with my teammates in college. There was just nothing more fulfilling than that. And I had some good experiences in the individual as a junior tennis player and as a professional, but nothing came close. To that feeling of that sense of fulfillment is playing alongside my teammates.

I bet you're still close to those guys. And when you get back together, it's like you're the same knuckleheads when you were 18, 19, 20, right?

1,000%. And not only my teammates, but, you know, some friends who were not on the team but would travel from Palo Alto to Athens, Georgia, to support us.

Oh, wow.

At the NCAA tournament. Like those are my fondest memories. And we just played Texas A&M a couple of weeks ago in the second round of the NCAA tournament. And my buddies from college who made that trip from Palo Alto, who weren't on the team, made that trip from Palo Alto to Athens to support us, made the trip to Texas A&M to support us. And we're, I mean, it's so good. It's so good. It's such a sense of fulfillment. And it's the shared success. Is such a better sense of reward than the individual accomplishment.

I want to hear why the Stanford-Wake game was your best sports memory. Yeah, I'm so happy you asked because I did, because, you know, I sort of take offense to this, Paul. I mean, he came to see me play in college, so it's like—

I know, that's right, that's it.

That's like me saying to Ravi, you know, having the Shipt CEO on, on, on the pod, be like, gosh, Cameron, I will tell you. Okay, so I'm just curious, I'm just curious.

It's, it's actually a good question, Shane. So one, I saw you play in college, but I didn't know you in college. As we've pointed out many times, you were just this icon, you know, you weren't my friend. The thing that was so cool about Paul's, uh, about the Wake-Stanford match was one, like, our whole family's there. And so the kids are there, they're there with their buddies, and they're getting their own experience of this thing. And I can see them getting excited. And then of course, the quality of play and the simultaneous and coming out last minute. But the best part was at the end, for one, I got to see Paul. I got to see Paul in action, right? He's choosing which court to be on. He's going through. I can see him getting fired up at different moments. I can see how he's choosing to coach. So you get to see that your friend doing something at the highest level and competing, and then you really like get to witness it. And again, like, I don't— I wasn't friends with you guys when you guys were playing. Right? So you don't get to see it in the moment. You get to see it otherwise. And so, to get to see Paul at his best and helping these kids and watching something that is an individual sport turn into a team sport, all of a sudden, last match, all the teams, both teams are right by it and they're going apeshit, both the sets of teams and cheering on the thing, and it's their team success. And then, at the end, we're all standing there and we expect nothing from Paul, but we're just standing there and we've been there 4 hours and we're just kind of cheering and pointing, and this dude turns around and sees us. And he just like kind of gives us like one of these like points at all the people who like came to watch and stayed for 4 hours at this match. I mean, it's 10 o'clock, nobody's eating dinner. And you can tell he's like happy that we're there. And I truly like, I was just feeling so happy for my friend getting to perform and getting to watch it and getting to see him in his element. And that combined with like the intimacy and the, I mean, the sort of enthusiasm of the crowd, I was surprised at how like fired up they were. But it was just you were kind of like you felt like you were really in it. And I was— and it was also just the surprise of the whole thing. But yeah, Shane, that was, that was why it was, you know, one of the best, if not the best things I've been to.

Paul, Paul, do kids still call their own baseline?

They do. You call your own lines as a competitor. And then there's a chair umpire who has the ability to overrule. And so, you know, I talk about this all the time because electronic line calling is on the professional, at professional tennis, but it's coming to college tennis slowly, but it's coming. It's an incredible dynamic because, you know, Charlie is my son and Ravi's kids have been playing basketball together for a couple years now. And when they were 9 years old, a referee, a third party, you know, governed their game. And we're asking these college tennis players to referee themselves. Like, when else does that exist? It's at some level unfair. And the pace is fast. I mean, at some point they have to call balls out that are going 125 miles an hour. And we're requiring the participants to govern themselves. And it makes for some interesting, if not chirpy and cantankerous situations.

Do you have to coach both sides of that though? Like, obviously, you may deal with a competitor that, right, like is gonna be unethical, right? And this is gonna be hard to deal with. You may push the boundaries of these calls, right? And there's certainly, I'm sure, a lot of adversity there mentally to deal with. But on the same side, calling your own line, is this something you have to like talk to your team about as far as like, what kind of team are we gonna be?

Yeah, I mean, it's pretty simple. I mean, it's hard when you get in the moment, but the instruction is like, unless you are 100% certain the ball is out, you're calling it in.. And there are punishments, there's punitive actions that are taken if you get overruled. Like you get overruled once, you lose that point. You get overruled a second time, you start losing, you lose that point and the next point. So there are point penalties.

Oh, wow. Because we know, like, if the Duke men's basketball team got to ref themselves, I mean, good fucking Lord, it would be never-ending. Just tic-tac fouls.

And, you know, Some would say it'd be more fair.

Yeah, I agree with that. Alex, the level of integrity—

It'd actually be more fair. Is that what you're insinuating, Alex?

You know, hey, the real question, this is honestly, I wanted it to be my first, but I found it offensive. But like, Paul, I've been actually like, I really want to know this. You've got to pick a doubles partner and it's got to be somebody on this screen.

On this screen?

Yes.

Wow. I just want— go with your gut here. Who, you know, who do you think you're taking? And I don't want to hear just because Shane's 6'8", you know, just it's, it's, it's true though, Alex. I am 6'8".

Tough call. I haven't seen any of you hit a tennis ball ever. I don't, you know, I like, I like, you know, matching partners up who are complement one another at, you know, at 5'8", not, you know, complimenting someone with a 6'8" is not a bad play. The best doubles results I ever had made semis of the US Open. My partner was 6'5". We had defined roles on the court. All right. He served first. I took every important return. No ad return.

So maybe we'll settle this at some point.

Yeah, I think we should settle this at some point. We played basketball with Doug. Maybe we play tennis with Paul. You know, it's not, it's not a crazy, not a crazy idea.

Every ball would come to me. And you know that. And I know, I know these dudes, Paul, and they would just hit the ball at me to see what I made.

Of.

It's all right though, I'm a competitor, I'm scrappy.

So I was kind of quick. I'm quick enough to cut off some of those balls. We're good.

Shane, the only thing is—

teams are settled. He picked me, guys.

Shane, did you, um, did you ever play any tennis growing up? I know you were a ridiculous athlete across multiple sports, but I never heard any tennis.

I was never a formal tennis player. Um, I never learned to serve, but I could do everything else, right? I had— look, I have hand-eye. I got the Birmingham City, uh, record for home runs, so I got, I got hand-eye. I just kind of never learned to serve. So if I ever got a serve in, it was my point because it was serve and volley 110 times, 110 times out of 110 times. Okay. So serve and volley. You're not going to pass me. You're not. But the question is, can I get a serve in?

So, but Alex, singles and doubles are different games, right? And doubles a little bit more strategic and whatnot, the complementary, but singles, it's all about the performance mindset. And if I got to choose who's going to win the, on the people on the screen, who's going to win the singles tournament without seeing y'all play, I'm going to give you the nod.

Paul's good, man.

Paul's good.

Paul is very good.

I'm just left out in the cold right now.

I think he chose the best players.

Yeah, I didn't get chosen at all. I don't know. I feel very offended. I'll just point out, listen, the number one player on, you know, Wake Forest, number one singles. Tall Indian dude. Okay, just letting you know, this is a sport.

And how many Indian people are on the planet? How many Indian people are on the planet, Ravi? That is not a data point that we care about. There are more Indian people than any other group on the entire planet outside of China. Hey, listen, listen, like, don't flatter me with numbers.

In some sports, you guys, you know, hey, we got representation.

Ravi, I'm sure, I'm sure if we were talking ping pong, you'd get picked first.

Yeah, I appreciate that. I really appreciate that, you know, and I'm just saying we're not gonna—

we're not gonna waste your time with this, this banter. I got a serious question for you. So we are fascinated by glue guys on this, on this show. We talk about them a lot. So how in the heck do you find a glue guy on a college tennis squad? Where does that person fit in? Is it the number 4 player that pumps up the number 1 and 6 player? Is it the double— the, the, the designated doubles guy? Like, where does the catalyst fit in on your roster?

They come in all shapes and sizes. I think the most effective glue guy is your guy who's playing 1 or 2 at the top of the lineup but is selfless and is both leading by example in terms of their, you know, if you're hard, if you're a player who has the best results and performing the strongest is also your hardest worker, there's no better motivator than that. I think guys who have the most empathy tend to be great glue guys. And then we've got, you know, we've had players who, you know, don't have the aspirations to not only play professional tennis, but really understand that they're not going to be playing on the team and are willing to do whatever it takes to maximize the team's ability to be successful. And so whether that means, look, I got a guy coming back from injury, I'm healthy, but you know, I might not be playing in the lineup. I'm gonna make sure this guy's up at 6 AM and getting the extra off-court workout and is in the gym for an extra 2 hours. I'm going to be the one motivating him to get up at 6 AM and run the dish and be in the gym. That's a glue guy. One of our best captains was a couple years ago, you know, it was sort of, I don't know, anywhere from 4 to 6 in the lineup maybe, but a senior. And unbeknownst to me, was taking the underclassmen out to lunch once a week and just checking in and just checking in. We had a guy injured this year who took a, you know, a guy, one of our underclassmen out so he couldn't prepare himself to play. But one of our underclassmen was just, you know, struggling with the transition a little bit to college tennis, both being on a campus for the first time, being in a classroom for the first time, and playing college tennis was a transition in and of itself. And just, you know, before a big match, one-on-one talk for an hour and a half. We end up winning that match 4-3. We need his win to get the win. And I'm telling you, the guy who took him out for an hour was just as effective, is just as important to us getting that win as the guy who played the match.

I think, Paul, I think, you know, when Alex asked you the question about these kids that go to school online and then, you know, come to you first time kind of as part of a team, there's a very strange analogy. I actually think that you are more like some of the tech CEOs than might be obvious, because I think that when they bring in people now, like if you run one of these AI companies and you hire one of these researchers, you know, they've been doing stuff on their own forever, and then they actually have to go and now and work with other people and be part of a team for the first time. And truly, if those guys are so smart, they've all— they've been, you know, like cyborgs, you know, towards some goal. And the leadership of those companies actually has to do something similar to what you're doing. I had never thought about that because, uh, the first sort of the first time being on a team, do you see what I'm saying? Like, uh, I even think about like, you know, the, our kids are 13 and they've been on teams for years, right? When you get 'em, you know, they, they know some of the rules. They might not do it. But do you see what I'm saying? Like, they already have some feel for it, whereas at work it's the same thing that you're dealing with, which is interesting. Like, I had never thought of that analogy until Alex, you know, asked you about it. I think that, like, I'd like to go a bit deeper in terms of, like, how do you talk to them? Because I got to believe that they're kind of like, well, it doesn't matter if we win championships for me to make the pros. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, how do you get them to care? You can share your own experience. But what is it that you found most convincing to them on getting them to buy in to be part of a team? Like, one of the things Coach K told us was like, speed to trust is a big metric that he thinks about. How quickly can he get to a trusted relationship with people on a team? You know what I'm saying? And I'm just interested in that. Like, how do you do that?

Yeah, I think some of it happens organically. I mean, you certainly can talk about it and articulate it. And articulate the fact in the first meeting you're transparent and upfront that, look, you're on a team for the first time. And so the guy sitting next to you's result, you are invested in the guy sitting next to you. But I think it really doesn't sink in. The stuff that sinks in happens organically. And so they're showing up for practice with the same group of 10 guys all fall. And then we start in our dual match season. And the first time you get a dual match season, it or you, organically you realize that the results of your team member, your teammates has an impact on you and you could win a match 6-1 and 6 of those guys are happy and you've won that match. But one guy, you know, might have struggled and lost, but he's still feeling okay. But if you win a match and the team loses, I'm telling you, like you feel that. And so I think it happens a little bit more organically. One story I— and I think as someone who's been through it, you share personal experiences and I think you— it's helpful, I think, when you're sharing personal experience to be vulnerable and talk about your struggles. I found like that as something that has helped. One story I tell is, you know, I remember years ago, 20 years ago, someone asked me if I love to win or hate to lose. And no wrong answer to that question, but I was always a hate to lose guy, and I looked for hate to lose guys my first couple years recruiting. And I just felt that emotion of like hating to lose was like a stronger motivating force than loving to win. Who doesn't like to win, right? I mean, of course we like to win, but if you lose and you hate it, you're going to do everything within your power to make sure that that doesn't happen again. So I was always a hate to lose guy. And then I saw an interview 8 years ago Jameel Hill was interviewing Kobe and Jameel Hill asked Kobe the same question and Kobe goes, "Nah, neither." And Jameel sort of was like, "It was kind of a one or the other type of question there." Kobe's like, "Nah, both of those have weaknesses. I play to learn. I play to figure it out." And so, ever since then, I became a play to learn, play to figure it out guy. And I think the— and because it helps you stay present and you're not tied to either that emotion of loving to win or hating to lose. And then it gets into this failure aspect of, you know, failure doesn't exist. I mean, it's only a failure if you lose on Monday and you don't show up on Tuesday looking to learn from that experience. And so those are the types of, I don't know, emotion stories that I think you share. And then going— and then I think, I think so much of learning is experiential. And so when they go through it themselves, I think that's the strongest aspect of helping them understand what it means like to be a part of a team.

Yeah. So, Paul, for the audience, Paul just was asked to give the commencement address at Sidwell Friends. Alex, is that a school you probably know about?

More Quaker talk, huh, Ravi? You just can't help yourself.

I mean, listen, he's an alum of Sidwell Friends. This is the school that I guess the president's children typically go to in D.C. Yeah, it's a great school, you know. And so Paul was asked to give the commencement address just like a week ago, I think, or 5 days ago or something. Friday. Yeah, Friday, following other esteemed speakers like, yeah, Bill Clinton has given the commencement speech address at Sidwell. And I listened to it and it was awesome. It was, it was really good. Paul, you talked in that about the importance of doorstops. I think it'd be cool to talk about that and share why you think everyone, when they go to college, why a doorstop is important.

Yeah.

So, I gave this commencement address and I felt like, one, I was very humbled to be offered. I felt like who, what 18, 17, 18-year-old is going to want to listen to some over-the-hill guy give advice? So, I opened with, "I am not going to give you any generic advice, no carpe diem today, no go out and change the world." Not because those aren't great messages because 'cause I expected everyone in that audience to go out and change the world regardless of whether I told them to or implored them to do so during that address. But I also talked about the importance of personal connection, which someone coming from an individual sport might sound a little bit counterintuitive, but all my fondest memories in sport, in life, were about personal connections, were about things that were built. You know, you build things that you can't find on the internet, relationships, and all your most fulfilling moments, all of the moments that matter the most, were based on relationships and people who are important to you. So, the only piece of advice I gave to the graduating class was— all of them were going to be a freshman in college a couple of months later— is at least during waking moments to use a doorstop on your freshman dorm room. And that symbolizes just an open door, being open to personal connection, being open to new experiences, being open to trying new things. And then I had a doorstop with the Sidwell Friends engraved. On it for each one of the graduates. And so, it was just a small little token that symbolizes an openness to connection, to new experiences, to trying new things, to not being afraid to fail.

I mean, as you say that, I think about my freshman dorm. I mean, those are some of the best times. You see somebody, "Oh, hey, what's going on?" You pop in and 3 hours later, you're— you know, it's past midnight.

And it's harder today. I think when we were in school, like, you go to the common room and watch a movie together. Today, you watch it on Netflix on your phone by yourself. And so it's a little bit harder to make that personal connection now than it used to be.

Well, I think that this— Shane, I completely agree. And Paul, I agree. I think, you know, like, phones are good for a lot of stuff. It's terrible for this because you just have this, like, ability to retreat into yourself, you know, that with something that allows you to, you know, you don't have to connect because you have this other alternative. One of the things that was easier when we were all in college was the alternative was not as available, you know what I'm saying? Just like sit and look at your phone, right? And I think that what I heard from what you said was like, you do need to leave a little room for like meandering in your life in order to make these connections. Like, it can't be that everything is perfectly scheduled. And also, it can't be that you don't put yourself out there. Like, there's this great researcher who basically is like, the only way to do great research is to be like chronically underscheduled. Like you just need some time to wander. And I think the same thing on the relationships in college. The best part about college is actually that you just have a lot of time.

It's almost forced by proximity.

Yeah. Yeah.

Social interactions, right?

Like you just— it's funny, I met this kid the other day actually who's dropping out of Stanford to go start his career. And he's not an athlete, just like a tech founder. And I told him, I said, look, man, like, I think— he's like, what do you think of the company idea? I said, I think the company idea is great. I was like, I think it's crazy that you're dropping out. And he said, why? And I was like, look, man, it's not like you're playing in the NBA or something where you're going to tell me you have some amount of years of playing at a certain level and it's fixed and you got to go and get this money. And these are 3 extra years of earnings. Like, dude, you're going to work the rest of your life, man. Like, and this time, like, you can't get it back. You're not going to go back to college. You know what I'm saying? You're not going to go and get this time back with your friends. And I was like, so the thing you're giving up is really scarce and you're— the thing you're going to go get is something that's somewhat abundant. Like you're going to have other ideas. Like, I'm not— it's look, if it's the right answer for some people to go do it, but like it's become— it's interesting. I mean, they just wrote this. There's a student who just wrote this book at Stanford about how some of the students, like, they're kind of, they're kind of not really realizing the magic of the experience that you have in college at Stanford. Right. Because it's so good. Pre-professionally that they kind of are skipping the college part. And I took from yours like, yo, man, this is really— it's a really amazing time in your life just to get to like meet people and make friends, you know? And I think people, they're so busy trying to get to the next thing that I'm like, look, all of us, I think, would look back and say college was some of our favorite times, you know, ever in your whole life, despite having some good things happen.

Paul, my question is, as an adult, what's your doorstop when you're an adult?

You're always learning. I go back to Kobe, right? And so, I had this really great experience in college. I was in school for 4 years. The teams I was on won 4 consecutive NCAA Championships, the first time in college tennis that had ever happened. But, more than that, I was on 4 years where our team all got along really, really well. Really, really well. Great leadership, friends. It helped to win a lot, but our culture was strong. And I played for a man named Coach Dick Gould, who in his 38 years of being the head coach of the Stanford tennis team won 17 NCAA championships. I think it's the second most in the history of college athletics, not college tennis. He's got the most by a mile, just in college athletics. And he told his longtime assistant after our 4 years, he was like, We better appreciate this because this doesn't happen. This doesn't happen. Every year is different. Every year is different. And that has been my— and when I first got the job, Coach told me that and I was like, how hard could it be, man? Come on. Right. And he was so right. And so I think the doorstop for an adult is just being willing to understand and appreciate that we are always learning. I don't care if you are 88 years old or 8 years old, we are always learning.

I think the other thing I can speak as like a friend of Paul's, one of the things I think he does is like one, I'll give you a couple examples. You know, Shane, he told me that his graduating class at Sidwell was like 120 people. 12 of them from his class came to the commencement address. I mean, remember, he graduated in '94. Right? Like 32 years later to have, you know, 10% of your class show up when you're giving the commencement address. Like I asked him, I said, how does that happen? He's like, you know, I just try to pick up the phone and call them. You know, I know it's not like I talk to them all the time, but I just pick up the phone and randomly call. You know, you told me that, Paul, the other day. And I think that like, I don't know, that's like kind of the equivalent of a doorstop of like, hey man, what are you doing right now? You know? And I think that I don't think everyone does that. I think people schedule things or they, they try to set up something and instead just like, man, like, I was thinking about you. So I think that's one thing Paul does. I think the second thing was I mentioned that Paul has been, you know, really supportive of Derek and me who coached Charlie. He actually sent me one of the more meaningful emails I've gotten, Shane. It's less meaningful than the one you sent me, you know, during the Whole Foods period, just to make sure you're still number one. But like, You know, you know, he sent me, he sent me an email, like, very shortly after we got started. He was just like, man, I just want you guys to know, like, Charlie's having an amazing experience, like, as in youth sports with you guys. Like, he's coming home, he's having fun. He tells us he likes his teammates. Like, I'm just really happy. And like, I just wanted you guys to know that. And it was like, 3 lines. But dude, you know, it was so meaningful. And so it's just like proactive. My friend Clay, has this amazing framework, which is he's sort of like, having positive feedback for somebody and not telling them is like having a gift that you wrap and it's beautiful. And then you just never actually give the gift. And he's just like, don't be an idiot, like give the gift, like actually give it to him, you've already did all the work. So I do think that, you know, Paul does that by like either telling people or just picking up the phone. And I find that to be pretty inspirational. I think particularly as a guy, like, Oh, you know, how often are you just picking up the phone and calling somebody?

Yeah, you know, never, never. Yeah, I do. Yeah, so it's got to be a mindset. And I think it—

there—

and it's— this isn't natural to me for sure. Like, there's got to be— you have to prioritize it, right? And like, there has to be a commitment and effort to it, right? To like put yourself out there, you know. And again, that these things are important, to your point, Paul, right? Like these, these relationships, when you do look back, are like the most meaningful things, as opposed to always being worried about like what's next, right? Like getting to the next thing, right? And you're head down and you're just kind of on your own path and you don't ever, right, look up. Ravi, you mentioned youth sports and Paul, I'm so curious on your opinion on this because you have so many different viewpoints as somebody that obviously grew up playing high-level youth sports, right? To the point where obviously it took you professional. You now obviously recruit youth sports. You have kids in youth sports. So like, again, these are things that— and this landscape I think has changed a lot, right? Like we've seen the professionalization of youth sports, right? Everybody demanding that you specialize early. Tennis is kind of one of these sports. Like one of my favorite books is David Epstein's Range, right? And it's like, hey, Roger Federer grew up playing a lot of different things. You know, the juxtaposition of Tiger Woods who didn't. It's so hard this day and age though to not, right? Every sport demands it. Basketball, soccer, baseball, tennis, golf, right? Like they just demand— volleyball, like whatever. They demand that you pick and pick early, pre-puberty. Again, I'm just so curious about your experience as you came up, who again, your dad was this world champion table tennis player, right? Like growing up in that environment, how you view it now as you recruit it, and then again as having kids that also obviously engage in it.

Yeah, uh, why I view the specialization, specialization of youth sports as an unfortunate evolution of our community, society, what have, what have you. Um, at the same time, as you said, it's almost a necessity now. And that's, that is the unfortunate evolution. Like, I played organized sports other than tennis up until high school, and then I got to high school and it was just tennis, but I'd still play pickup, uh, throughout high school. But it's so hard to do that now. My daughter's an athlete and she's still playing, uh, other sports other than her main sport, and I think it's really, really helpful and it's really, really healthy. But then as a coach, yes, I recruit. Listen, I want the best tennis players I can find who are viable admission candidates to Stanford who bring good culture. And it just so happens that the vast majority of those have been playing tennis exclusively for many, many, many years now. And so I'm not going to prioritize someone who's played other sports if they're not as strong of a tennis player. And that's just, that's just how it is. So I don't know, at some level, it's just an unfortunate evolution and And, you know, one of the things that's dictating it is coaches of youth sports, like, that's what they do. And that's the way they make a living. And it's telling them to, it keeps them having a job all 12 months out of the year. I don't blame anybody for it. But it's not always certainly in the best. I mean, I think about like collegiate athletics, like changes needed to be made. But I don't know that anyone would sit there and say like, we haven't lost the plot and we've ended up in a place where we should be. Like, changes need to be made, but we're not in a place we should be right now. Same thing in U Sports. Like, I don't— we understand how it evolved to where it is, but we're not in a place where that it's ideal.

Yeah, just, I mean, it even seems crazy to me that you, you mentioned this and this isn't— tennis isn't the only sport, but like you recruit again, kids that don't play high school sports. Like, I look back at like high school sports is this amazing, amazing, magical thing, right? Like, I don't care what it is, right? Like, you're in the layup line chain in the gym of a big game. Everybody's in there packed. You're playing your rival, right? Like, there is like such magic to that and everything that, right? Like the commitment that you and your team put in and like—

Dude, Kirk Cousins on quarterback said that his favorite experience playing football was high school.

High school.

I mean, like, think about, like, you know, hundreds of millions of dollars earned in the NFL. Like, you know, like, but his favorite experience in football was high school football.

But think about this, like, these are kids in tennis that, like, literally have never even experienced this, and they're the best players. Soccer is the same thing now, right? Like, this whole MLS Next thing, they do not allow you to play high school sports. It's, like, forbidden. It seems insane to me that we're, like, robbing— like, again, like, what are we solving for? Right? When you just look at the statistics of your chances of even playing in college, let alone ever going on to play professionally. And yet we're— everybody's solving for that, right? Like, we're not solving for the experience. We're not solving for the doorstop. We're not solving for the relationships that you're going to build. I don't know. And I feel like everybody perpetuates it, you know, like, and I'm not—

Alex, I don't actually think it's unique to sports anymore. I think this is exactly what's happening outside of sports for like, You know, if a kid is trying to go to a— go to college now, they're supposed to tell a story, right, of what they're about and what they're passionate about from the time that they were 14 years old. And it's like, dude, like, 14-year-olds have no idea what they're interested or passionate about, right? And yet they're like defining some story that they're telling to a college so that when they apply, it's like, here's what it's about. And I'm sure that I want to come here and this is where I want to be and this is how I want to do it. It's just all fake. I mean, it's just like, that's not how it works, right? But I actually think the specialization— I totally agree with you guys. I think it is happening well beyond sports, you know, based on— and it's the same thing you said, just trying to get to the next thing.

It just seems insane to me, though. Like, I don't know. And again, like, when you look at the great— like, Steph Curry is a specialist. Like, I don't think so. Just go watch this guy golf a little bit, right? Like, it seems like there's like nothing he can't do, you know what I'm saying? Like, Would we be surprised if Steph's a good tennis player?

I think he would probably, if I had to guess, I would guess Paul would have picked him if he was on the court.

Yeah, hell yeah.

As would I.

Right? Like, do you know what I'm saying?

All this complimenting wouldn't have been there.

Okay. I've been with Pat up close and personal. This dude can do it all, right? Like he played 3 high school sports, you know, again, all the way through. Like, I don't know. They just, I get fired up about this because I think it's crazy, but like you said, Paul, here we are.

It's a great prisoner's dilemma, Alex. Hey, oh, hey, you should, You should not specialize. Your kids should play 3 sports. What about your kids? Well, I'm different. My kids are different. Totally, totally. It's the classic prisoner's dilemma.

Dude, I completely— Shane, you're so 100% right because I'll tell you, all of us, I'm interested. What do we do with each of our kids on sports and on school stuff when it comes? Are we all just going to play the same game? As everyone else plays. And it's like, it would be pretty hard not to, you know. But I agree. I agree. That is a— I think it is a prisoner's dilemma.

Paul, one of my, one of my favorite and influential books that I ever read, that I credit hugely in my, my basketball career, The Inner Game of Tennis, Timothy Gallwey. And that book was given to me by my mentor and the guy who taught me to shoot, Chip England. Who gave it to Steve Kerr, gave it to Grant Hill. And really for the first time, and look, we played in the Stone Age where mental health was looked at as a weakness, not as something you sought to improve. And it was the first book I ever read that addressed the issues of doubt, anxiety, nervousness, and in a way that is totally separate from the physical skill and the skill of beating your opponent, right? And it's opened up a whole new world for me. And so, would love to get your thoughts on that and how you try to instill that perspective in your players.

Well, first of all, I have one summer assigned Inner Game to everyone on the team to read. And still try to utilize some of the philosophies that Timothy talked about. I mean, I love that that book, even though it has tennis in its title, totally transcends.

Yeah.

Tennis, more importantly, transcends sport.

Yeah.

And think about it, I think it was written in the '70s, right? Yeah. And it is like the original manifesto and mindfulness and performance mindset, I think. Yeah. And I would say it's especially in tennis. I mean, all sports, but the performance mindset is so important in an individual sport. And it is the thing that makes the difference. The margins are so thin in tennis. I mean, Federer gave his commencement address at Dartmouth a couple of years ago.

54% is amazing.

54%. Failed 46% of the time. But what he doesn't say there is, I bet if you did a research on like what percentage of clutch points he won, that's more of the 80%. And that's because of his performance mindset. This mystery of confidence, man, if you could bottle that thing up, it is worth all the tea in China. I mean, it is the most important thing. And so how do you intentionally go about getting into flow state when you're competing. And the lessons in Inner Game are fantastic for giving yourself the best opportunity to do it. But honestly, like the more you go through it and are successful, the more that's helpful. The reason Federer and Djokovic are winning 80% of the clutch points is because they've been there before. It's so much harder, I think, to break through for the first time than it is to maintain when you get there. And it's because of that confidence, it's because of the lessons from Inner Game that give you the confidence to stay there. But again, it's experiential. Doing it, there's nothing replacing doing it over and over.

One of the things— Djokovic has one of my favorite quotes of all time, which was, you know, effectively comes down to like, "I just really like hitting the tennis ball." Like, you know, it's like, why do you play? And it's like, It's the same thing. Like, I just really like doing the activity. I like doing that. It's like not— it's like the most elemental version of it.

And one of the reasons he likes it so much is because he is awfully good at it.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah. What comes first?

Okay. Can we talk about this? You are the last player on earth to beat the Joker in the first round of a Grand Slam. That's crazy. You are, you are history.

Not—

you're a young guy still, but you are the last person on Earth to beat one of the greatest players of all time in the first round as a huge underdog. I don't know what the odds were in Vegas that day. As a huge, huge underdog of a Grand Slam. Like, do your players understand, like, how, how nuts that is?

It is nuts, but it is more than anything, it's a testament to how phenomenal his career has been because that was in 2006. So he's gone 20 years, 4 times a year, not losing in the first round of a Grand Slam. I think it's up to— was it 76 in a row now he's won? And for— and during that time, I have retired from playing professional tennis, had 3 children, worked 7 years in the corporate world. Before starting to coach, have now coached my 12th year at Stanford. During all that time, he still hasn't lost in the first round of a Grand Slam. His longevity and success over time, it's, it's an insane statistic. And it's been more than a decade now where my phone blows up 4 times a year because he comes out on the court for the first round. Commentator is like, ah, streak's up to 55, 65, 75.

You're the, you're the Mercury Morris of tennis. You're the Mercury Morris of tennis, Alex.

Exactly. Exactly. But I'm not popping the champagne every time.

May he rest in peace. May he rest in peace.

And then actually one of my former players played him in the first round of the Australian Open, not in '26, but in '25. And that would have been a pretty cool bookend where, you know, I was started it and the guy I coached and Nishesh won the first set against him, but ended up losing in 4. So at this point, you know, unless the Shesher, one of my other guys, gets him, I kind of hope he retires without.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't blame you.

I've gotten more mileage out of that win than anybody deserves, no doubt.

I'm super curious on, to like, to get back to the court, right? Like, I, I can't help but think of Brad Gilbert, right? And like this, I, I think we all, and I was like this for a long time, where it was like when you were playing, you're you actually, at least this was just my mindset again, where it was like, I always like saw my weaknesses, right? Like I always saw my warts and I like worked, I spent all my time trying to refine those things. And I actually like, to that same point of confidence, like that mindset, I actually always felt like dimmed my confidence as opposed to like always focusing on my strengths and actually like playing to those. Does that make sense? So I always, again, like I spent all my time trying to get better at my weaknesses. And if I have the story correct, please correct me if I'm wrong, but like, Basically, Brad Gilbert was like, let's stop hitting the backhand, dude. Like, you got a great forehand, let's freaking rip forehand as much as possible. And you got a killer serve, like, let's feature it, right? Like, and again, like, and probably a lot of this is just, it is the mental piece again, to like play to your strengths. And hey, you know why you like hitting the balls? Because you're good at it, you know? Like, let's do more of that. Um, is that something you think about with your, your players?

It is. And I actually use that story that you mentioned with Brad and Andy. And so I'm not 1,000% that this is true, but this is how I understand it and this is how use it. So Andy was, you know, up-and-comer. I can't remember if he was 19 or 20 years old when he started working with Brad, but a top 10 player but hadn't totally broken through and won a slam. And when Brad took over, and I think the year before the US Open where he lost to Sampras, who was, you know, was not number one in the world at the time. Andy was the up-and-comer. Pete was still, had been number one in the world for so many years, but was This was like the passing of the torch match potentially. And Pete just came in on Andy's backhand all day and beat him in straight sets. And I think Andy would spend a lot of time working on his weakness. And Brad took over and said, Andy, we're going to do two things. One, you're going to stop wearing a visor. You're going to start wearing an actual baseball cap. And then two, we're going to stop working on marginally improving your biggest deficit or weakness. And how about we start imposing, figuring out a way to impose your strengths on your opponent as often as we possibly can? So you have the best serve in the world and one of the biggest forehands in the world. Instead of spending all day, all day, every day working on that backhand, how about we go find forehands all over the court and serve guys off the court? And I— and he did that. And a couple months later, he wins his first Grand Slam, wins the US Open, gets the number 1 in the world. And it's just such a lesson in what you said. Which is at the end of the day, especially in an individual sport, but I'm guessing in football, Alex, there's some good analogies here as well, and basketball as well. How about we make our opponents deal with what we do best as often as we possibly can? And as a coach, we— it's so easy to get in the habit of trying to like improve those weaknesses. But the truth is, The more we hone our strengths, the more we make our opponent deal with what we do best, I think the more we maximize our opportunity at success. And so, it's really important and that is the best example I can think of and I use that often.

Alex, as you look back at your career, what is the one thing you wasted more of your life on trying to be better at that you just was a futile effort?

Oh, dude. Well, this whole thing when I got drafted of like, could I be a pocket passer? Right? Like, I, I, dude, chin. Uh, 6 years, the first 6 years of my career, like, we're like running as a quarterback was seen as like this negative all of a sudden. And like, I had to be able to like play from the pocket exclusively. And it like, yeah, it like haunted me. Right? Like I gotta be able to play from under center in this like quote unquote pro style system. And until I can do that, I haven't proven myself to anybody. Right? And it took, like, again, I probably spent the first 6 years of my career doing this. And to the point where I like, I wouldn't run. I would not. I would like just sit in the pocket because I got to prove that I can like do this. I can be like this passing quarterback. But to that point, Shane, and I've talked about this, especially like the difference in my career playing for a defensive head coach versus an offensive head coach. And it did just coincidentally enough, the first 6 years of my career were with a defensive head coach, Shane. And I told you guys this, like, you took the field and it was like, oh, and all week it got beat in your head like, hey, we can't turn the ball over, right? Like, we can't take sacks. Like, no negative, no penalties, right? Like, and all you went out there with was this like mindset of like, well, God, I can't— we can't do these things. And then you also just were staring at the defense and how great they were, right? Like, boy, these guys are such good players. And you really like— all of a sudden you took the field and like coaches had like beat your confidence into like nothing. And then you like flip that all of a sudden to play for an offensive head coach, especially as a quarterback. And any, any, any offensive head coach, right, has already established that they were a really good offensive coordinator, right? Like to ever get that job, that promotion, right? And their mindset is like, let's score 40, right? And again, it's just such a different mindset to take the field where it is like, hey, they got to deal with us, right? Like, and for me, as the guy taking the snap every single play, like those two experiences couldn't be more different.

Shane, did you have something like that where you like wasted a bunch of time working on something that—

I wasted years, years of my life shooting a 15-foot jump shot, which is the dumbest shot in the game of basketball. I used to work on coming off pick and rolls, coming off curls, practicing the worst shot in basketball until I got to the Rockets and I understood how bad and how difficult that shot was. I'm like, I am an idiot. So if I had a time machine, I go back. I don't think I would set foot inside the 3-point line on the offensive end. I wouldn't.

I would not practice around the hoop though. Were you still doing—

Yeah, yeah, a little Mike and drill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You can never be too good of a finisher, right? So Charlie Nash, right? You know, great finishing never goes out of style, but leave those 15-foot jump shots. So I, I look back, I'm like, I wasted literally years of my life working on this skill, that was the stupidest thing of all time.

You know, can I, can I nerd out for you guys for just a second on this topic of like doing things that you're good at versus not just for a second? So if you guys— we've talked about Alpha School on the podcast before, you know, the school in Texas that's doing like, you know, more dynamic learning and mostly online, but then kids do stuff in the afternoon together. Anyway, look it up. Alpha School.

It's interesting.

Alpha School does this thing with kids early on and it pays them to read. Okay. And if you look at what Americans agree on, okay, more Americans are supportive of corporal punishment in school. Okay. Supportive of corporal punishment in school than they are of paying students to do schoolwork. Okay. So like Americans, very Americans. It's very hard to get a lot of Americans to agree on anything. But 76%, I think, of Americans are against corporal punishment in school. And like 78% are against paying students to do schoolwork. And like, it like feels viscerally wrong. Alpha School's logic is very simple. Their kids do things that they're good at. Okay. And kids who aren't good at reading don't read. Right. But if you pay a kid to read early on, like the way they get good at reading is to practice. It just takes certain kids longer than other kids. But the way to get good at it is to practice. And if I can get you to practice by paying you early on, it will pay dividends for the rest of your life because you'll be good at it. Like, it's no fun to read if you're not good at reading because it takes you a long time. It's hard to work through the words. But if you are good at reading, it is fun to read because you learn a lot, you know what I'm saying? And you can enter all these different worlds. So Alpha School pays students to read early on. And so one of the things I was thinking about when you guys were talking about like You know, it's fun to do things you're good at. One of the responsibilities we have as adults around kids is to not have them be too narrow early on on what they're good at. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, Andy Roddick is a professional athlete. Great. You've already made it. Cool. You can be the best in the world hitting the forehand and the serve. Awesome. One of the things for us is like, don't have the kids be too narrow early on in like, what are you good at? What are you not? I'm reading Rick Rubin's book right now, Creativity. A way of being. And literally, Sáven, my youngest, 11, is like, oh, Dad, what are you reading? I told him, he's like, oh, I thought creativity was something you're born with. And like, that's what I thought too. And literally the very first sentence of the book is everyone is a creator. And I showed it to him and I was like, oh, buddy. I'm like, I don't know, like this guy's point, literally first sentence of the book is everyone is a creator. I'm like, so maybe you're not born with it. And he was like, oh, okay, cool. And like 11 years old and like his brain shifts. But I was just thinking about that when you guys were talking about it, because I do agree we want to do the stuff we're good at. We just hopefully we don't have too narrow of a definition when we're like 10 of what we're good at, you know?

For sure. Yeah. Let's not— yeah, let's not conflate Andy Roddick's desire to not hit a backhand with the ability to be able to read and how fundamental it is. So I totally agree.

No, but you know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying?

No, no, I do. And I think this goes back to like my point on Roger Federer.

Was that I bet Andy Roddick—

the point is that generalists, I think, win, right? And I guess that's what I was trying to say about the, the ones I guess I, I find myself admiring— Steph Curry, and again, like, Patrick— like, these guys are generalists, right? Like, and, and I do think that why I was so upset about U Sports is we've, like, we've lost that, right? Like, we've lost that ability to find, like, just someone that can figure it out. They have a learning mindset, a growth mindset. They like to take on new things. They like to try new things. They're not scared toe the line, right? They haven't specialized. Um, but I agree, as, as a, from a parenting perspective, uh, those are different things than trying to get Paul's team, you know.

Paul, Paul, let me ask you a question.

Locked in.

Have you ever, um, coached any of your kids, um, in sports?

Um, I have the best job for— you coach Charlie's sort of club or AAU team. But yeah, he plays for his middle school team and I have the best job in the world, which is assistant coach on that team. So I've coached Charlie a little bit. I've exposed all of them to tennis. I have 3 kids and it didn't really stick for any of them. My oldest played throughout high school, but I didn't really coach her. But when I introduced them to tennis, I would coach them some. Do you think that they weren't having it? You do a phenomenal job with your boys. Mostly my kids.

Did your dad coach you, Paul, if you don't mind me asking?

No, no, he didn't.

Do you think that the kids didn't choose tennis because of your success in it? Like, do you think that had anything to do, or just like, no, that just wasn't the game for them?

I just think it wasn't the sport for them. I think, you know, tennis there's an individual component to it. You lack the— you don't get exposed to the social aspect of tennis quite as much. And so I think it was more that it just wasn't the sport for them than it was not wanting to be in the orbit that, you know, I spent a lot of my time in. Yeah.

Paul, I want to ask a question about, uh, your pro career. You won the Arthur Ashe Sportsmanship Award twice. On tour, right? For these—

That was in college.

Oh, college.

Sorry.

Sportsmanship and Leadership Award.

So no one has ever done that since, right?

I'm not sure. I was the first to do it. I know that. I'm not sure if no one's ever done it since, but—

You know what? My research says you're still number one. And if that person's listening, I apologize. So how do you draw the line between competitiveness and sportsmanship? Can you be a competitor and a sportsman? No one talks about sportsmanship these days. Of all the lessons that we're trying to teach these young kids, no one talks about sportsmanship, something I was very proud. I thought I was a winner of a sportsmanship award. So, how do you think about delineating sportsmanship from competitiveness and what's the message that should be sent there?

This is another— I'm glad you asked the question and it's another unfortunate evolution in sports, community, society, it felt like it was a more important thing ages, years ago when we were growing up than it is now. And I say it's, it's a good question and I'm glad you asked it because it feels very relevant for me because even coaching and playing, competing today, to be quite honest, it feels nastier than it used to. And I'm just using an example of two nights ago, the Spurs-Knicks feels nastier than it used to. And I don't want to get into politics, but politics seems nastier maybe than it used to. And how much of that is getting embedded into our society and how much of it is the fact that people specialize at such an early age that the stakes become that much higher. But there definitely seems to have been and continue to be a devaluation on sportsmanship than they're used to. And so it's something I'm very proud of, some of those awards. It's very humbling. It's important to me, but it just seems less important than it used to be. And I'm guilty of like, I've— yeah, like coaching the last couple of years has felt nastier than it used to be. That Wake match that we talked about. Ravi felt nastier than it used to be. And I don't have a solution or my only commentary or answer is it's just, it's an unfortunate evolution in sport, but that does also feel like, you know, sport has been transcended by community, society, and all of it feels a little bit higher stakes and harsher and more savage. Than it used to be. That's what it feels like to me.

Yeah, well, the visibility's turned up, right? Like, we just have so much more access to see these things, and even kids obviously know with social media, right? Like, the, the world is watching and can be watching, right? So all of a sudden it's no longer just two little teams or communities going at it. It can be so much bigger, you know?

And is sportsmanship being celebrated less? And are— I don't know, there are less consequences to what we might have used to thought of as, you know, non-ideal behavior than there used to be. I'm not sure, but it feels like that could be part of it.

Yeah, I think, you know, I don't know. I mean, I'm interested in what you guys think. Like, my initial— my brain initially goes to like scarcity versus abundance, which is like the stakes point, you know, which is if you think that the stakes are high and one person gets it and the other person doesn't, and like this moment is what will determine that. There is— you are more likely to be nasty, you know what I'm saying? Versus kind of having this idea of it's going to work out in the end. Kind of the person who deserves to get it is going to get it over a long period of time rather than this is going to determine that. So I think time horizon matters, scarcity and abundance matters. It's interesting you mentioned the Wake match. What I find interesting there for you, and I'm curious for the people that have won sportsmanship awards, I observe that it's not usually that person who starts it, you know what I'm saying? But the question is, even if you're a great sportsman, how do you behave when someone else has started it, when someone else has been nasty to someone that you care about? Because the thing that happens is it does get instigated, you know what I'm saying? And then there's this chain. I think this is— I actually very curious, like, where is the line when you are a competitor and someone is behaving in the nasty way, but you also are a good sportsman? And they're behaving nastily, not to you, because fine to turn the other cheek for yourself, but they're doing it to someone that you care about or someone on your team. What does someone with great sportsmanship do? And Alex, you should be included in this too, when it's not you and it's someone else that's getting the instigation against.

Alex, you have an answer for that?

My answer is— Listen, I guess I'm kind of torn.

I played a sport where the rules were sometimes gray. So there was always room for vigilance.

Like the greatest—

the greatest—

like I think we would all agree that sports in so many ways, whether or not we're participating or it's our team, right? Or even our kids, like when you think about like when you guys watch Duke play, right? Like you guys are still part of that Duke community, right? Like you love, you want to see passion, right? Like you love, we love rivalries. There's nothing like a rivalry, right? So like when Duke UNC is playing, right? Like we don't want to see a bunch of like them high-fiving, right? Like each other, right? Like we want to see some intensity because it does mean something to Ravi, to your point, the stakes are high. I think inevitably when you have very tense moments, right? Like in, Shane, you hit the nail on the head. These are very gray, right? Like there's, there's always going to be spillover, you know, like there's going to be times the line gets crossed, right? Like, and I think it's happened in every sport there is, you know. And so, right, like, I'm so curious, Paul, because like, I don't know, we haven't— I don't— not sure we've seen a guy like McEnroe on the court and, you know, since then, right? Like, uh, so I, I think that fire has been there. When I think about the Pistons and Bulls played, like, pretty ugly, man. Like, you know, Celtics and Lakers, like, it's like, it was pretty vicious back in the day. So I don't know if we're always more like self-aware now and maybe think it is getting worse or trending, but that like, I have a hard time because again, like I love the passion, right? Like to the, obviously to the appropriate threshold. Yeah.

And to be clear, like I absolutely think that you can be, no, I know that you can be the fiercest of fierce competitors while still doing it in a in a way that is class and high integrity. And that's what I think you strive for. Being a sportsman, competing with class and integrity is not mutually exclusive to being the fiercest competitor. And that's what I want to see too. And that's what I want to see too. But I don't know, it doesn't always sit right with me if after the game contest, we're— I don't know, did you watch the— yeah, recently What was it? Texas Tech, Florida softball. I don't feel great about that. I'm all for fiercest competition between the lines. I am. I still prefer to see, and maybe it's not as bad or maybe it hasn't changed over the years, but in my personal experiences, it felt like it has a little bit.

You know what they do in rugby? You guys know what they do?

Where they go, they have, they get, they get dressed back up in their ties and jackets and they go have beers together.

They go have beers afterwards. Yeah. And it really is like that norm or tradition is pretty awesome, right? Because I mean, rugby matches get, they get pretty fiery as far as I can tell. And the idea of like, it's just like part of the match that you like go and get beers afterwards. There is like something to that, I think, you know what I'm saying? Of just like you compete like crazy, but then you're there like Yeah, I don't know, like there's stuff I wonder if they're— that's a tradition that I think serves a pretty darn good purpose, you know, for sure.

You mentioned, Alex, like there's more exposure. Maybe we talk about stakes and there's more exposure, and I think there's a lot to that. I felt like one of the things I benefited from growing up was being naive. And what I mean by that is like I didn't know— I have two older brothers who are athletes and awesome, but they didn't play tennis. My parents didn't play tennis. My dad learned tennis as I was learning tennis. And so I never knew like what the step, the next step was. Like I started, I played my, I started playing a little bit of tennis. And then I played a tournament, it was like a Maryland state tournament, I lost in the semifinals. And I didn't even know what a draw was at the time. My dad was like, whoa, that, Paul, you realize you just lost to the 4th best player in the entire state of Maryland, 12 and under. I was, and I was like, wow. And then I did well in the next Maryland tournament. Then you get to play a sectional and then you did well in that, you get to play a national and then you, what's the next step? You play international. And then what's the next? You go play college. I mean, you see Wimbledon on TV, but I never skipped a step, but not because that was the strategy because I didn't know better.

Yeah, totally.

And there's so much information out there now that that creates the stakes. Yeah. And I think that contributes to the, what I'm—

I think that's a very insightful take.

Yeah.

Well, and I wonder, especially Paul, like the college level, right? Like, I mean, we've literally seen the professionalization of college sports, which again, I think we're all like, I'm in favor of it, right? Like these college sports, some of them bring in huge amounts of money. Like again, like the the kids participating should have, um, some access to that. But you mentioned like the softball game, right? Like the Texas Tech pitcher, right? The former Stanford Cardinal. I mean, what, she got poached away? What, for like a million bucks? NIL deal. So, because I know this, the first professional contract I signed changed a lot for me, right? Like the stakes got real heavy. And, and to your point, now that, that was never present at the college level. Like, I'd love— like, my college experience was amazing. I loved it. And to imagine to have had the expectations of a professional contract, right? Like that, I can see how that changes the landscape of college sports, you know?

But it's interesting, guys, because like I hear you and like I'm like nodding my head vigorously. And then I take this psycho Battier, like when we talk to him and he's like, oh yeah, like I, from the time I was 12, 13 years old, like I knew I was going to be a professional basketball player and I was like working on each step and I knew if I did this, then I would do this. Like there's these exceptions, right? Because Shane, I don't think you were oblivious to like the steps and where, you know what I'm saying? Like where you were. And Alex, you and Paul to me remind me more of each other. Shane, you tell me if I have it wrong.

Yeah, I think I was more like Paul, you know, and it's like, oh, this is interesting. I can, you know, I can do this. I can play this level. Oh, I'm playing with some high school kids as a 7th grader. I'm hanging in there. Oh, okay. This is interesting. Now I'm playing pickup ball with 30-year-old grown men. Okay, I can hang in there. Okay, this is interesting. And so, it's really you're learning about your journey and what your potential can be. And once you sort of see it, then you're like, "Okay, that's cool. Let's push a little bit more and let's see how far this thing can go." So, no, by no means that I think I was going to be— it was my dream and my goal to be a professional basketball player. At a certain point, you realize, "Ah, I'm 6'8" and okay, when I play with these NBA guys in the summer, I'm not embarrassed. I can stay on the court. Okay, this is in play now. This is in play. But it's a progression of what you see, what you experience, and understanding, like, okay, I belong. And what's next?

Well, that's super interesting then, because I do think that that is really different now for people. I think that as someone who never played high-level sports or anything beyond high school, in your regular career, you just you don't have to know the way, you know, athletes do. You know, it's just a natural lowering of stakes in many ways. Do you see what I'm saying? Because it's like, how can you know, you know, all these things? And so it does like emerge later, you know, oh, can you play in these different settings? It just happens as you get older. I, I haven't thought about what you guys are saying though, and I think you're right. I think the— basically it's like the ability to go backwards from your goal 10 steps is actually maybe a problem because just knowing, you know what I'm saying, all these various things rather than just like focusing on the thing in front of you, you know, does create all of a sudden people think they're playing for much higher stakes than they are. It's like a mismatch of the stakes versus reality is where I think you end up in like the crazy town.

I was going to say, Paul, when I hear you and I think about sportsmanship, you have great respect for the game of tennis, right? And I think that's the hallmark of a true sportsman, a true sportswoman, that you feel privileged and you feel a responsibility to the game. It's the game, right? It's not about what the game can do for you. It's what you can do for the game, what you can put back in the game and utilizing the opportunity that this game has been presented to you. And I know that's why I felt my entire life. And so I would have felt like an idiot if I ever took that for granted or disrespected the game. For me, the game was always paramount. And it sounds corny, but, you know, it sounds like you want to leave the game better than you found it, right? And that is a deep respect and ownership of the opportunity to do the things we've been able to do in our life, right?

It's responsibility to the game. It's appreciation for the game. And it's a gratitude for the game and sport. I traveled on— I've competed on 6 continents. I don't think I would've traveled to 5 of them if not for the sport. I've met people from around the world because of the sport that has given me perspective that I never would've gotten on different cultures that I never would've gotten if not for the sport. So I have gratitude for the game, which contributes to the respect and the responsibility that you feel. So absolutely. And, you know, people going through it, there's a mutual sort of, respect because you know how hard it is and how challenging it is. And so people who have gone through it and done it and are trying to go through it, there's just, uh, like you said, an appreciation for— and it should be like this, like you said, the fiercest of competition, but then you should be able to break bread after. And that's just the way it feels, what feels right to me. And, and in recent years, it just, it feels like that's gotten harder.

Paul, we've kept you for a long time. Our traditional closing question, as you know, podcast is called Glue Guys. Who are the glue guys or glue people in your life?

Well, I mean, for sure, my better half and bride, who I love and have so much respect for. I guess one of the stories I'd say is we started dating in college and Abby is my wife's name.

And, you know, definitely better half.

Let me, let me confirm for everyone's sake. And but one of the things I appreciate most is and there was a time like just after college, I'm traveling around the world. There was a time we split up, came back together, but then there was a long stretch where we were together. I was playing on tour and I think we went, I mean, many, many years, more than 5, where I don't think we saw each other for 8 straight days while we were together. And maybe that is, you know, how you stay married and with me because I'm not with you. She gets a break from me every day. But then there was a time when we started to have kids and she was never going to— she never made me feel guilty about getting on an airplane to go pursue my thing. So she just, I felt like, made tremendous sacrifices. And this is true for my friends starting high school. This is true for my, certainly my parents and my brothers. But the one constant of the people, most important people in my life have made sacrifices so I could pursue the thing that I wanted to do the most. And so it became very clear to me that what a disservice it would be for me to not put my best energy investment into the thing that I wanted, that I was most passionate about. What a disservice it is to the most important people in my life. And, you know, for Abby, she never made me feel guilty about being in an airplane. She's working full-time as I'm playing. And my decision to stop playing had to be mine and mine alone. Because if we're going to spend the rest of our lives together, it can't be any— can't resent anyone for making me stop before I wanted to. And so I don't know, that feels like probably the starkest example of who the glue person would be in my life. But certainly it's the people most closest to me who made sacrifices on my behalf. And the way to honor them, much like the way to honor the sport, is to just be putting your best energy investment into what it is you do all day, every day. Like, how can you? And that's the— and it's the most fulfilling, right? If you're passing it on, it's, it's It's actually quite selfish because this is how I feel the most rewarded and fulfilled.