What Champions Do When No One is Watching - [Glue Guys, Ep. 70]

I go down the court and I start eating an imaginary chalupa. I don't know why the hell I did that. Like, I've never done that. And but I just was so happy for the fans of Memphis. As soon as the buzzer sounded, you know, Glenn Rice, legend, comes up to me after the game and says, man, don't do that. That's the last time I ever celebrated.

All right, fellas. Well, I'm very happy that I get to propose the topic today because I feel like I've been a little— I've been kind of lagging behind a bit on suggesting topics. And I got to tell you, Shane's been very nice to me. But the last time we got on, you know, he was like, Ravi, are you going to bring up a topic this time or is it still going to be me and Alex? So I really thought about—

Alex brings the guests, I bring the topics. You know, Ravi, you got to— You got to, you know, appreciate somehow, man. Yeah, you know, you know, you bring diversity. All right, what else?

I know, I really appreciate that. Sadly, sadly, I don't have a good retort. I— that's actually true. Even my kids have pointed out that they— Shane, they don't know that you bring the topics, right? But they definitely point out that you and I are freeloading off of Alex on the guests.

I got several guests in the queue, by the way.

Okay, well, we appreciate that very much. All right, so I'm very enthusiastic that I have the proposed topic. So one of the most exclusive book or article clubs that there is is the Glue Guys book or article club, which is just like on our text chain, "Hey, did you read this?" And so, I put out the bat signal last week for an article that I read from Will Medeiros called "Rented Virtue." And I sent it to you guys. I sent it to Avni. I sent it to a few other folks just because it was one of those things that I read and I would say it was actually literally thought-provoking. It made me think about a lot of stuff. And it's not that I agree with everything, but it was something I really wanted to discuss with my friends and discuss with family and all this stuff. And so maybe I'll take my— just to get us going, some initial idea for what I viewed the thrust of the article to be. I think Will was sort of making the point that virtue in the past used to be earned. And it was earned through a bunch of activities that took a lot of time, whether it was through building your community, whether it was through being part of a religion. It was something that took real time and took real effort. And he did tie it a lot to religion, right? And then I think now he sort of was lamenting a bit of like people are trying to, in his words, rent their virtue, and they're trying to get it from their companies a lot of times. but that that is a poor substitute for something more enduring. And I think that what it made me think about, and the reason I wanted to send it, was, you know, there was this line that really like stuck with me, which is like every time that someone did something and they, and they focused on something that no one would ever see when they built something, the reason they did that was to honor God. It was, it was kind of the point was sort of like that was the source of the motivation. Because if no one was ever really going to see it up close, the only reason they did it so well was because of that. And I was kind of like, wow, like, is that the only real motivation that can endure? Like a religious one or something that's more like that? Or are there others? And I thought about it for us because at least in my— in the time we spent together, we don't actually spend a lot of time talking about religion as motivator or religion's role in our lives. But we talk a lot about motivation and enduring motivation. So, that's where I kind of wanted to start was maybe like, what did you guys think when you read it? And then maybe we can start on like sources of enduring motivation, maybe other than religion or even on religion alone. But Alex, Shane, what do you guys think?

I thought it was a very interesting article and there were like a lot of things that were thought-provoking for me. Um, you know, and again, obviously, like, religion isn't obviously a normal topic for us to be talking about on Glue Guys. You know, he goes into this story in the article, like, certainly about the history of these Quakers and how, uh, you know, he grew up a Quaker.

Did he?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, and how, you know, they were so trusted as you know, in commerce because of their religious views and how, and how like, and their stout religious views, right? Like uncompromising.

Yeah. Lying effectively is, you know, verboten, uh, in as a Quaker and truly like where it was never done, you know, and kind of lays out that, yeah.

And in that way that, you know, going back to England, they were more successful. Because they were so trusted and had built up this trust in their community, you know, and larger community, I guess I should say, of people they deal with. I guess, you know, as I— on that note, on that first note, as I like originally started thinking about every group of religion in the world, you know, Christian, Judaism, Islam, you know, Hindu, Buddhism, right? And even like you take secular. Kind of agnostic people. Like, I mean, for me, I guess I would, I would lay a large wager that it's this, they all represent roughly the same makeup of ethical and non-ethical people, you know, at large. Like, I don't think that a particular religion has like the, you know, I guess this has the market cornered.

Yeah.

It gets the stake in the ground on being ethical, you know, like, and again, like even secular people, awfully hot take if you started with that. Yeah.

I think, yeah.

Strive, you know what, again, like, like, I don't— I, I think morals and principles come and, and come from a lot of places, you know. Um, certainly religion is a huge one for the planet Earth and humanity, right? Like, but culturally as well. And I do think these are things that are earned over time based off your character, right? Like, in, in interactions with people. Um, so it was like one that I was like, you know, as he frames this out, because like, for me, as I'm reading the Quaker thing, the most famous Quaker I know is Richard Nixon. Right. And I'm like, well, I don't know here.

You know, that was just like my shout out, Duke, you know, you know, my first.

Yeah, there we go. Is he a Dukie?

For law school?

Yeah, let's go. Yeah, all the Tar Heels will love this. So that was kind of my first thing. And then I, again, I want to be very clear, like I grew up in a very agnostic household, right? Like I've kind of explained, um, at least to you guys, certainly my background, my, my parents are kind of grew up in heavily Mormon community as kids, um, kind of in the Western mountain region, you know, like Idaho and went to school in Utah and, and, you know, obviously I, in their adolescence chose to leave the church. Right. And then again, we were raised very agnostic. Like I only went to church when I slept over at a friend's house and I had to go to mass the next day, you know? I was like, what's going on here? And again, so I think this idea of when no one's watching, right? Like, is really like, hit me what you said, right? Like when no one's watching. And again, this idea, I don't know, I guess I just struggle with the fact that it like has to be, it doesn't always has to come from like, well, is God watching, right? And like, it's this like almost fear-based that like you aren't gonna get where you wanna go. Right. Like, there are plenty of people, I guess I would like to believe that maybe that, that doesn't apply, that, but still choose to do the right thing the right way, you know, again, in isolation.

And I think the question for me, Alex, is like, why? If it— because he presents one point, and this is for you and Shane, but it's like he presents one point, which is like one reason that people do things when no one else is watching.

Yeah.

And they do the right thing is because of some belief that they are like— maybe the positive would be they're honoring God. The negative would be that God's watching, you know, totally one of the two.

Well, Ravi Gupta! My takeaway was when I read this, this article for me was about stewardship and yes, it was the backdrop of religion but when I thought about my own life and you know, I didn't grow up with shit, alright? With not a lot of resources, right? But I was given amazing, amazing opportunities and so the two things that came out of this article were stewardship for opportunity and craftsmanship, right? And having like a sincere discipline to be great at your craft, not because of anything, but you just want to be great at your craft, right? And so, you know, for me as a poor kid growing up from Detroit, I grew up in a Lutheran household. I went to church a lot in high school. I was spiritual. I wouldn't say I was overly dogmatic religious, even though I was a religion major and everybody thinks I'm super religious because I was a religion major and I'm not. It was just a really cool thing to study. And, you know, I was always keenly aware that like, "Wow! I'm really good at kickball. I'm really good at, you know, baseball. I'm really good at football." Like, that came from somewhere. And so, I looked at like the gods bestowed on me, you know, great height, great hand-eye coordination, and it was my duty. It was like my duty to use those skills and not waste them. Right? And so like that is what pushed me more than anything else as a young kid to work hard and to do well in school. It's like, "Oh, man, I've been given this opportunity by the gods, by God, and I'm not going to cross them up by throwing this away." And so like, you know, that was, you know, that brought me back to my early days of feeling a responsibility and not a burden, but just a chance to give this opportunity I was given and take it as far as I can go. And that's like the best way I can honor having this, this chance. So for me, this article is about stewardship.

Got a lot there. Got a lot there that I'm brewing on because Shane, so I love it. But like, and I have never asked your opinion on this. I'm sure I cannot be alone in this, that whenever I watch sports, especially football, It is very prominent in football. There's this amazing game. Someone plays really well. Fantastic finish. Game ends. We run over and interview someone from the winning side. And the first words out of their mouth are, you know, glory to God. Yeah.

Glory be to God.

Yeah.

Okay. And again, we're playing a game. It's a game.

Okay.

Like, I don't know how high it is on You know, God's— whoever's God's totem pole. Like, I just don't— probably not that high. And like, again, all the things going on in the world, right? Lots of people suffering that aren't healthy, right? Like that, that have it tougher. And I just find it— I always struggle with this, right? Like, again, this is personally me, this idea of, right, like that certainly thanks are in order, right? Like, again, to your point, Shane, like how lucky are we, right? Like that got to do this and for a lot of different reasons. To reach this kind of pinnacle, to live this life. And then, but like, you know, like again, here in this amazing moment, it's like, God is good. Right? Like, and again, that the perspective changed that, like, certainly there's a lot of people in the world that like, again, and it's a game, right? It's football or it's basketball or it's whatever. Right? Like, I don't know. This is personally, as we've transferred this to the sport world.

It doesn't bother me as much. Like, that doesn't bother me when people thank God or Allah or whoever they pray to that, hey, because I think it goes back to stewardship for them too, that they were given this opportunity. Now, you know, does God help you hit a curveball? I don't know about that. You know, does God, you know, help me block a shot and, you know, block Kobe Bryant's shot? I don't think so. It doesn't work like that. But, you know, but again, it's an appreciation of the moment, it's appreciation for what you're given. And to your point, it's the point of the article. It's your responsibility to do the best you can with that, right? For whatever reason that pushes you.

Okay. So this is where— this is to me at least a question, which is, all right, Shane, so you stewardship and craftsmanship. I love, I love those words. I think they're actually words that like they carry a lot of weight. I guess one question for me is if it doesn't come from religion, because even in yours, it's sort of like, you know, I was— I have these God-given abilities. I need to honor them. I have some obligation. Can somebody have the motivation for high stewardship, extreme craftsmanship, right, without religion behind it? Because I think that one of the points in the article I took was, I think Will's view is like, it doesn't seem like he's sure that there are other sources of motivation for that. And I think that, at least for me, I kind of think there are, right? Now, I think they're harder, Like, I think they are. I think it's actually, uh, I think it is harder to have an enduring motivation that's not religious. And I don't mean good or bad. I just mean that, like, I, one of my very dear friends, her, uh, her dad told her, and then she told me, she's like, he's like, I think you and folks that are not religious are being a little arrogant, assuming that you can motivate your children without religious scaffolding. Like, look, like, you know, religious scaffolding has worked for a long time to get children to, you know what I'm saying, to like do a certain thing. You saying like, we're not going to use it. Okay, you know, cool. Like, I'm sure it works. But like, you know, you're kind of going off of the beaten path. And just for personally, we were not religious growing up. Like our family, I guess, is notionally Hindu. But like, you know, Hinduism, even in its own, is really not like a religion, I guess, like it's much more cultural.

You got a lot of eyeballs watching, not just one pair. Yeah, lots of eyeballs.

That's true.

That's true.

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Um, but, but like for sure, whatever motivation we have is not based on It's just like, that's not what it is. And so I kind of started with the idea of like, I think there are other sources. And I will tell you, like, for me, the obligation feels— if you like replaced God with like my parents in your example of like, man, like whatever we were given, like somebody did a lot to like give us opportunities. You know, I know you feel this way too, Shane, but like I felt— I feel a fair amount of obligation to that. Which is like, man, like, you know, people kind of gave up a lot for us to have like a good life. Like, if you don't care, if you don't act in a good way when no one's watching, you're not honoring them. And like, you know, at my parents' 50th wedding anniversary, you know, they had like a small, you know, party. And one of the things I said, and I really mean this, I was like, you know, my mom is sort of like the, I think like our conscience, like my brother's and my conscience, because we think a lot about like, What would she say, you know, if you were like, did something that wasn't the right thing? And we may do the wrong thing all the time. I just mean that, like, but when I think of like doing the right thing when no one's watching, I don't think of God. I think of my mom, you know? Yeah. And so I was— that was the part that I thought was kind of different that I took from the article. And Alex, like, I, I don't know. I'm curious, like, what you think about that. I—

so it's so funny you say that. A couple things, like, again, I think religion can be obviously a fantastic teacher of morals, and especially for children and everybody. I inherently think people and humans are social creatures, right? Yeah. We are tribal, right? Like your family unit, your core community, forever. Humans are tribal, right? Like almost like in a pack. And again, that I think inherently, right? Like, I think this all comes back to being blue guys on some level. And I think a lot of it has to do with this, that humans— and like, stay with me here, this is going to sound crazy. Humans are so incapable. Humans are so incapable as infants and young children. Right? Like, we are like one of the few species that like, we are so helpless, right? Like, you look at every, you know, especially other mammals. Horses walk within like, you know, minutes. Um, like, humans are just completely helpless. And you do not reach even adolescence without the, the, the love and care of usually multiple people. And again, that these are cultural traits that you learned, and as you come up, fit into this family unit, community, right? Again, this tribal unit, and that there is duty to that, right? To the team, if you will. And that, yeah, that this behavior is reinforced from that. And like, I even think when you talk about craftsmanship, I was lucky enough, um, my family and I last summer went to Japan. I don't know if you guys have been, but any listeners that have been Japan. Like, I was blown away when I was there by the attention to detail.

Yes.

From everybody.

Yes.

And it is like, for me, seemed very much to be a cultural thing for sure, right? Like, that, that there was resp— I don't care what it was, how small it seemed, the attention to detail by everybody as a, as a cultural population, it was just incredible. right? And it's certainly— let me tell you this, my kids do not possess that. It was apparent that we are failing, my wife and I are failing in that department with our kids, from an attention to detail. Um, and where does that come from, right? A lot of this, like, it seems meaningless, right? Like that, from the, you know, again, the person, you know, like you go to get ramen and you're just like blown away by the attention to detail that gets put into that, you know? And so I don't know, like again, some of that seems to be even cultural, right? Like again, where you grow up, how you grow up, where is emphasis placed? If that makes sense.

There's a Japanese word that was one time the theme of a Sequoia offsite, which is called koto-wari, which is basically this like obsession with one's craft. And it basically means you're constantly in pursuit of making it better. It's never over.

Yeah.

And I actually think it is like a very important word in Japanese culture. And it certainly speaks to this craft idea.

Ravi Gupta, one thing I got to push back on this article about, and I'd love to get your take on it. And the thesis is basically all these groups, the Quakers, the Mennonite furniture makers, the Trappist brewers, all these people who have this irrational constraint that made them great and this force of something higher that made them disciplined and stewards of this opportunity. And the author says this is their competitive moat. Okay. This is what makes them great. Right? Is there, is there a survivor bias towards this though? Like we know, we know the Quakers cause they survived. How about all the people that were pushed by some, you know, some virtuous act and were wiped out by people who were way less scrupulful, you know, and played dirty and wiped them out because they were chasing money or they just were being assholes about it. Right. So like, Do we have to take that with a grain of salt? What about the survivor bias of this, of this example? Yeah.

You know, I didn't think about that. Yeah. I mean, I think you are almost certainly right, you know, which is that like any time you use— yeah, I think that like this probably wouldn't stand up to like a good study design. You know, because like it wasn't, there wasn't like a fixed set of constraints on both sides. And I think, I mean, you said this, everyone says this, but like winners write the history books. And effectively what you're saying is like, you know, these folks were the winners, you know, in many ways.

I think like something is like that I also thought was super interesting in the article is when he started going down the Adam Smith stuff.

Oh yeah.

Again, I was an economy major. I'm like, markets work, the invisible hand, right? Like I'm a very firm believer in this. Um, but that I did not know the history of like kind of the moral side of Adam Smith's arguments.

Me neither.

Right. And like, I do think this idea and Ravi, I would so like interested in your point of view on this. You have interactions obviously in the business world all the time, like in some ways, and he makes the argument like commerce can train morality, right? Like if somebody wrongs you, right, or doesn't isn't ethical or doesn't have integrity, right? Like certainly that word spreads fast. You will not interact like, you know, commerce is based off an exchange and you will like cease to exchange with somebody that you don't, right? Like that, that doesn't hold up their end again, isn't ethical, isn't moral. And so that even it can be this teacher of morals. And I do think you could like, you could also that boil that down again to even like your family unit or your, your, your like tight-knit community, like if you're somebody that is an asshole, like inherently, people just stop exchanging with assholes, right? Like, again, like they almost like weed themselves out. Yes, to a certain extent. I mean, it's not always, you know what I'm saying? But like, totally. That we're almost like wired for it.

You know, that was truly one of my favorite parts of the article too. And I agree with you completely on like, I had no idea that Adam Smith had this like moral side. Okay. So this I've thought a lot about, which is I think that the thing that makes markets work, like what you're saying, is the repeat nature of the interaction, right? Because you don't just work— you don't work with somebody one time, right? You work with them more than once over a long period of time. And so you have to have some theory as to like whether they're going to be trustworthy over a long period of time. And in situations where you don't have repeat interactions, you have like a middleman. There is somebody who you have the repeat interaction with. And I think that teaches you whether or not you can trust the person or not. I mean, you take the trust that any of us have, like, you know, you like work this time, you made this money. Like, do you actually know where your money is right now? Like, no, you like look at it on your phone. You look at it on your computer. Somebody tells you with some brand that you trust that it's there. Do you see what I'm saying?

My financial advisor.

You have a trusted party, Alex. You have a trusted party. I'm not going to take the bait. You have a trusted party who's telling you that it's there, but like you really think at the most core level, it's sort of like, I don't know, like it like is somewhere, you know, there. But I actually think the reason the market teaches you that is because of the repeat nature of the interaction. And this actually, to me, ties back to the thing I was thinking about earlier, which is all of us have some loyalty to institutions that are not just religious. and it's because we believe they will endure beyond our own time there. Like, you know, think about just like one for you, Shane, like Duke basketball, right? Like Duke basketball is something that you believe will endure, I think, right? You have, you cared about it beyond the time that you're there. You know, there is some belief that it like exists and is a thing that will like outlive you, you know? And Alex, I think about all the communities that you're a part of. You have to believe that they're going to exist beyond you in order to, like, care for them the way that you do. And so I actually think that what I take again from, like, the article or any of this is you need to believe that the thing that is motivating you will, like, exist beyond you. It's almost like it has to be bigger than you. And that's the other thing in the article I think that's interesting, which again, I don't think just has to be religion, but you better believe that it is bigger than you. And you better believe that it is worth your devotion. And I think the thing that I do believe is that people are sort of like, I notice this all the time in the Valley, people want their team to be loyal to the company, right? But the company doesn't stand for anything. There is no, like, it's like the mission orientation you're talking about, Shane. It's like, what are you going to be loyal to? What is the reason that the company exists? What is the thing that is that is consistent. And I think that a lot of the things that I think religion provides is it provides some worthy mission. It provides a very, very, very long-term thing that's going to endure beyond you. And it also, like, there is a consistency to it. And I think that one of the things that I observe around here is that people want religious devotion to their company, but they don't provide some of those things like worthy missions, enduring goals, consistent approaches to problems, and it's very hard to endear that kind of loyalty without it.

Yeah. I think it doesn't— I love that. And I almost think that it's potentially just not stable. I think back to coaches I've had that have been in win-at-all-costs mentality, right? And again, let's be very clear, the objective of teams in sports is to win, right? And it does make sense. Don't know though, like again, from a sustainability standpoint, from having played, like if you play with somebody like that, right? Like that is so cutthroat that there isn't any trust buildup. Like I don't know the shelf life, right?

Yeah.

But a coach that does have, that always speaks with some level of perspective and goes deeper, right? Like on, and I think on motivation and why you're doing this and why are we together and the value of that.

Yeah.

I think it is more lasting, but to your point, it is the people, right? Like, I have a just naturally, like the feelings I have to the Chiefs are stronger because Andy Reid is still the head coach.

Yeah.

Right. Like the Hunts are still the owner.

Right.

There's people in the building, like the people in the building that make that, like I know what they were about.

Yeah.

From like having proximity to it. Whereas like other teams where the people move on, hey, listen, it's still, it's still the same uniform. Norm and emblem, but like, I don't— those aren't lasting because the people have changed, if that makes sense.

Yes, yes.

Yeah.

I don't have a question for you. Okay, can we just strip away the, the language, the religious language, the virtue, and isn't what this article really talking about is long-term thinking beats short-term thinking?

Yes. Yeah, but, but like long-term being like really long-term.

Yes, long, long duration thinking beats short duration thinking.

Yeah. Yes. But I think also, Shane, there's something about the consistency too. Like, I was thinking about what Alex was— when Alex was talking, I was thinking about one of the examples you've given me from Coach K of like, or given all of us, which is like, even if we won, but we didn't play to our standard, it was like, hey guys, we got to talk about the standard. Even if we lost, but we played to our standard. I mean, you know, I don't know how often that happened. But if it did, it's like, hey, look, like, you know, we, we met the standard. And the thing that's kind of cool about that is the standard is the consistency. It's not the ephemeral win-loss. And the, the, that is the, like, the durable or long-term piece to it. I, I think that I, uh, yeah, I, I, I agree with you, Shane. I do think that, like, ultimately, if you're gonna have stewardship for craftsmanship, going back to your point, you know, it, it's only if it lasts. It, it's only, you only care, do that if you go for the long term.

You know, like, think about, like, when we were at, at Bentonville. Right?

Yes. Yes. At the Walmart meeting.

And they're bringing in these 30, 35, 40, 45 years these associates have been at the company at some store around the country. And it was like, I mean, to go to Bentonville and to get recognized for their length of service to the company, to get brought up on stage and to hear them tell a story when they met Sam.

Yeah.

Like, that was incredible.

Yeah.

Right. For a company that's 2 million employees, it is global. Like it does not get more corporate. And like these associates that were like on the floor, like live this, like believe in it. Like how does that, like, you know what I'm saying?

But Alex, you know what's cool about that? What I think is you can't fake it. That's the other thing I liked about that. You can't fake 35 years somewhere. There's no, like, do you see what I'm saying? Like, look, you, you, you have definitionally earned the right to get up on the mic. And I think that's what people want to hear is the real, you know, like the thing that's so interesting about duration is like, yeah, it just can't be faked. You know, the reason that when we talk about institutions that matter to us, right? Like if the Hunts, I don't know the Hunts at all. Okay. But if the Hunts were like kind of full of it, they couldn't own this team and engendered loyalty for all this time. Like that's not a thing. You know, you can't fool people for that long. And so, maybe like, yeah, like long-term Shane to me, maybe like the reason that long-term thinking or long-term duration beats short-term is it's like easier to tell if it's real. It can't be faked if you do something for a long time. One of the things I was going to ask you guys was, there's a Steve Jobs story on craftsmanship. Have you guys heard this before?

No.

Okay, so he was, um, he was very obsessed with cabinets, okay? And he would tell this story about how he went and looked at a cabinet one time, and like the front of it was beautiful, truly, truly, truly beautiful, like incredibly detailed and all this stuff. But then he went around, looked at the back of it, and the back of it was a piece of plywood, right? And it was like, it just like broke it. It was just like, this is not good, this is terrible, like that the thing I wasn't supposed to see is just garbage. And so, you know, apparently, in the iPhone, even though you can't take apart the iPhone, practically speaking, if you take it apart, the circuit board is beautiful. Because it's sort of like, look, we made this with such care that even the stuff you're never going to see is amazing. Right? And so, he— a lot of like when people in tech talk about craftsmanship, it's, you know, there's some like, belief or there's some reverence for Steve Jobs in this thing. And it was sort of like the, it matters because it matters, right? It matters because you made it. And so Alex, one of the things I was going to tell you, I was going to ask you guys is like, when you're working on your form as a quarterback, when you're playing, I'm talking, and I want it like the most minute detail, Alex, Okay, like truly, like, you know, you tell me, like the way your hip rotates during the throw, like I'm talking like the most minute detail, minute detail. In that moment, when you're working on that, are you thinking like, this is gonna make me throw it, get, release it faster so that we win this game and we win the Super Bowl? Or are you just like, no, like, I just want to like do this right? Like, what's the motivation when I'm talking when you're in the deepest of the offseason workout on the most minute detail? On your craft, why were you doing it?

Yeah. Well, oh, I mean, professional sports is this like great duality of like, listen, I'm trying to be my best for me and my family. Right? And certainly, my career speaks to like this multiple times. I mean, having been traded multiple times, right? Like the idea, and I had just heard this recently, like this idea that I'm running a race on a track and I'm in my lane.

Yes.

Like I— like we drafted Patrick Mahomes and he's in the lane next to me. Like my job is to run as fast as I can. And that will happen by me, like, just focusing on my lane. Yeah, right. Like, I can't, like, look over at him and expect to run as fast as possible.

Right.

And so the motivation in the offseason is almost entirely selfish. Yeah, but, but, but, but, but also again, from the craft that like, yeah, that you're, you're proud. Like again, in sports, like, shoot, you take the, you know, you're on the TV, like there's a, there's not, there's millions of eyeballs watching, right? Like this is where ego, uh, definitely plays a huge part, right? Because you want to be proud of what you put out there.

Yeah, right.

Like you are so visible. Listen, I go to the grocery store, I mean, if I play like shit, like it's not like an enjoyable experience. However, you play well, like something that people, fans are proud of, whether or not it being a winning or losing effort. But like that, you do, it's different, right? Like it is so public and you are, this community is rallied around this team that you are a core piece of. You want to like hold up your end, but it is just your end. It is like farming your own land, right? Like, does that make sense?

Yeah, totally. And what about you, Shane? Same kind of thing, like in the offseason, most minute. Defensive footwork detail.

Yeah! You know, you know where champions are minted? You know where? Tell me! When no one's watching!

Yeah, totally! Totally!

Right? Champions are made when no one's watching and so the old adage, "How you do anything is how you do everything," is totally true and like I think about coaching my high school team and when we're running, you know, sprints on the sideline, I'm like, "Guys! Start behind the line. Yeah. And don't go until I blow the whistle. And invariably someone is like, you know, trying to cheat and get a half foot out or going before the whistle. And I say, you got to start over. And they're like, why? Well, why? It's a foot. Because I know if you cheat on this wind sprint, then you're going to cheat on this defensive rotation that's going to get us beat. Then you're going to cheat on this blockout that's going to give us they get us beat in the last minute when we need a defensive board. Right. And so, yeah. Is it about the foot? No, it's not about the foot. It's about how you, what you'll accept. It's about what you'll accept. And like, and that was the—

Is the Pat Riley quote?

That was Atomic Habits.

Oh yeah.

Oh, which also—

Culture is the minimum state. What was it? Culture is the minimum that you're willing to like tolerate.

Yes.

Yep.

Culture is the minimum your group will be willing to accept. What's the worst behavior that your group will accept? And so, like, that's what I think about when I read this article. It's just like, yeah, no one's watching, but it's important because it's all important. And if I cut a corner here, then what makes me think I'm not going to cut a corner somewhere else that's maybe more important?

Ravi Gupta, do you not think that there are companies— I mean, again, especially here we live in the Valley— like, do you not think there's companies on both ends of the spectrum that employees are very proud to work for and therefore attract talent, and companies that maybe employees are not as proud to work for and therefore talent ends up leaving. And a lot of it's set from the top.

I 100% agree with that. Yes. What I was saying was I think that there are some founders who want this level of devotion but don't earn it. You know, and I think it's really hard to earn it. It's really hard to earn it because you are constantly thrown into situations that beg you to compromise on something. You know what I'm saying? And like to go and do the thing that's hard is really fricking hard. You know what I'm saying? Consistently. But yeah, Alex, I 100% believe that there are companies that earn that pride from their teams. But it's hard.

Yeah.

And I would, I would extend it like same thing, isn't it? And again, I go back to this. I do think there's like this element of humans, like almost craving it. There was a reason you guys chose to go to Duke, right? And it wasn't just the diploma.

Yeah.

I'm saying it is this like larger cultural, like tribe that again, you guys like on, you know, are proud to represent and what it stands for. Is that like, you know, not, not, not much different than a company.

Totally. But I think just like on a company side, for instance, like, listen, like, you know, there's all these AI companies, they all matter. They all have their goods and bads. I, one thing I can tell you is that like for Anthropic, for instance, Dario is out saying a lot of stuff about how jobs are going to get lost due to AI. Okay. I can assure you that at the moment, that is not like a positive thing for Anthropic. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, it is not good for them to say this thing. This is not a selfish, positive thing. But this dude actually believes that, okay? He actually believes it. And so he's saying it and he's saying it because he's sort of like, even if it's inconvenient, but I believe it's true, I'm going to say it. That inspires loyalty within that group, right? Like that group sees him doing something that is not great for their company, but it is in line with whatever his values are. Even if he's, forget about whether he's right or wrong, but that's what he thinks. That creates, you know, that trust and loyalty inside of that company. And that company has problems too, just like any company. But that is a really interesting thing of like, He is faced with a choice every time he has an interview of, do I say the thing that will just move it along, or do I say the thing that I believe that's actually kind of hard? And he's right now choosing to say the hard thing. And that is, in my opinion, admirable on that dimension. Shane, I was just thinking about it of one of the things I think that's very underrated on craftsmanship is you can learn so much from somebody who really knows their craft. And if you're willing to ask them, even if you don't know that much about it, you can learn so much. Alex, there was a text message this weekend. You're not a founding member of the Commissioner's Cup, so you weren't on it. It was Michael, my brother, and Shane, and me. But Michael sent this video of his son playing defense. Okay. And think about how absurd this is. Michael's son's 12 years old, right? And he sent a full video of it. And he's like, is this a foul? And he sent it to Shane. And Shane, I mean, to his eternal credit, like watches the video.

Okay.

And sends like a text message. You get, you know, if someone's not watching the video, they can't see it, but the text message, like, you know, this long, like it's like a long text message and it's basically like, this defense is really good and it probably is a foul because he's bumped him 3 times. He never disengages. What you really should be doing is bump, bump, then disengage. And it was like a really incredibly detailed, helpful analysis of like what it is. And then he sent a video of like him playing defense of like, here's the version of it that works, that still allows you to just, and it was amazing. It was like watching like a real artist explain, like, here's how I do it now. Like, we all know Shane's good at defense, whatever. Like, do I know that he'd be able to explain on some random 12-year-old video of like, you know what I'm saying? Of like, here's what's working. Here's what's not. Here's what the ref's thinking. It was amazing. And Alex, it's the same thing. Like when, every once in a while, you wouldn't do it much, but when we would in the flag football stuff, like, if you actually started working with a kid, like, "Well, hold on. No, no, no. This is how you want your body to move at the line. This is the way you sell a fake." It's so fun when someone has, like, real craftsmanship to, like, actually go and talk to them. So, I think one of the things that people underestimate about the value of craftsmanship is it's such an interesting thing to share. With somebody who's curious because you can talk forever and it's so fun to go deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into it. And so one of the things that I like want to tell our kids is like becoming really good at something when you find a friend who wants to hear about it, you know, like it's so fun to share it with them, I would imagine. And it's so fun to watch them be like, oh my God, there is that level. Oh my God. I didn't know you thought about that. I didn't know you thought about that. And so it's like underrated to be a craftsman.

You know, to be fair, that was the first time anyone I've ever had the chance to explain the, the 3-bump rule. You know, it's kind of like the Key and Peele skit, you know, the, the— yeah, don't, no, don't do it. All right, same thing works for defense. All right, don't, don't, don't hit him 3 times, it's a foul. All right, you hit him 2, don't hit him 3. So, but it is fun, it is fun.

Well, on that note though, this idea of like renting virtue, right? Like I don't think of it as renting, but like virtue, like, again, if you go and you're around it and you have proximity to it and all of a sudden, like, whether you're at a company or any part, like, there probably is this element of you either get on board or you don't, right? Like, and again, time helps declare that, right? And make that obvious. But like, I, I think lots of people crave that, I guess.

I actually think the market works in this dimension. Here's what I'm saying specifically. If someone's on your team, okay, whatever, company, sport, doesn't matter, and they're actually curious and they're sincere and they're hardworking, you'll spend time with them. You will. And if you're like the craftsman, if somebody is curious, sincere, hardworking, You'll spend time with them because it's addictive. You know, like Patrick was in line to take your job, right? And you'd be like, well, you know, but did you spend time with him when he would ask you questions? Like, remember, he's the competition in some respects. And you're like, yep, I'll spend time with him because he actually is working hard. He actually is curious. He actually wants to know. And because you, like, the honor to your craft is like to share it if somebody actually wants to know. I was listening to this podcast with Rick Rubin the other day, and it was amazing. He was really into magic when he was a kid, apparently. And he's like, "You know what's crazy about magician communities?" I was like, "What?" I didn't say what, I was just listening to the podcast, right? But I was waiting. I was like, "What is it?" And he's like, "Magicians are very cool to share their secrets with other magicians." If you're in the magician community and you're like, "Hey, how'd you do that?" The person will totally tell you. Whereas if you're some tourist, they won't tell you. And so I was thinking about that and I was like, you know, I think you can learn it. And the unlock is just like sincerity and curiosity and hardworkingness or work ethic. And then the person who's actually good at it will be like, yeah, cool. Like, I'll tell you about it. I, that's for sure true in companies, which is like, there's a young guy on our team right now. Okay. Who He's so sincere. He's so curious. He's so hardworking that literally any question he asks, you kind of want to drop what you're doing and go help him because he's so interested and he's so good. And you just are like, "Well, of course. It would be a disservice to the world to not give this guy the information he wants." I was always struck when Jordan would explain to Kobe what he was doing. Kobe would give these interviews where he's like, I was watching you on the fadeaway and you do this. How do you, how do you do this? And Jordan, who like, this guy's like the up and comer. And he's like, oh yeah, like I feel I'm on this part. And the fact that he was like, for real, all of a sudden, like this alpha competitor was like, no, still, I'll still tell you. Like, I always thought that's like one of the coolest things.

It is. I just think back, I'm sure everybody has them when you think back to like favorite coworker, like favorite teammate. Yeah, favorites, right? Like plurals. But like, like, why, why was it that they were like that? Like what, you know? And again, I— there is a level of craftsmanship and how they went about their business. Totally. Not that necessarily, um, they didn't have to be the greatest, but I do think that it was important to them, right? And you can see that. You can see that. You can sense it. You feel it, right? Like, and that's what you want. You want those people on your team, you know, again, and like, and I think that motivation can come from places other than religion.

I think that the motivation to be a craftsman totally can. I just think it has to be something enduring. It has to be something you believe in that will outlast you. Like, I do think the motivation, you know, it comes from something. And this is something I've grown up and I've thought differently about. I never thought about the word craftsmanship at all growing up. And now I think about it a lot. And I think that even when we had Wright on and he shared the Bill Russell quote of, "Your craft is how you find the best in yourself." And I was like, "Man, what an amazing sentiment or quote." But part of the reason I like talking to you guys about you know, your crafts is you, you, you both light up when you talk about it. But it's also so fun, like, you know, to watch your friend do their craft, you know, like that's like a really special experience when you get to watch somebody like, you know, do the activity that like they care a lot about.

And I think that's a really important point about this article that you need a community that enforces it.

Yes. Yes.

Right? That's the other part of it. Like, you know, it could be your personal, your personal relationship with God. And that's, that's the, the thing that holds you, you know, accountable. But like, it really is important to be a group, a group that enforces this behavior. Right? And I was thinking of that when you talk about teammates, Alex. And so that's super. It's so even though it's, it's a very individual thing. Oh, you're right.

It's a whole community thing, you know? Yes. Yes, without a doubt. Yeah.

And I think Shane, I think that's really, yeah, it's great because like, you know, one of the hardest things to hear is from someone you respect in your community or on your team. Like, uh, I think you could have done better. I don't see you in this.

You know what I'm saying?

Like that accountability that like, yeah, that trust, like, you know, the, the standard being upheld laterally that, yeah, dude, like huge deal.

There's probably no greater cut.

Yeah.

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, as far as like a sting?

Yes.

Yeah.

Like, if you are in on the— like, yeah, like if you are held— someone's holding you accountable that you're not doing your job, and it's your team, it's your peers, it's like people you respect. Like, it's—

do you remember the Steve Kerr thing that he told us from Popovich when he was sitting on the floor? Remember when Kerr was like sitting on the floor and he was like— Popovich came out to him, was like, hey man, that's not you, you know? Like, I see you sitting over there, that's not who you are. And he's like, I felt like I was this big, you know, like, oh yeah, I feel that on his behalf. You know what I'm saying? And like, what a perfect way of enforcing— I know it's not technically lateral, but like enforcing like the culture or the discipline or the, you know, the craft. Like, you're a great teammate. You're not the guy that sits on the floor, you know?

And then you ever get called out by a teammate like that?

Not like that. Well, not like that, but like I've been a— don't get me wrong, like I've told you guys this, like when I got drafted, right? And I had no idea what it meant to be a pro quarterback. And like, I'm just like projecting what I think people are expecting, you know? And like, you do and say just the dumbest stuff, right? And I didn't, I didn't even know what real strength was, you know? And like, I mean, I've told this story, I mean, a bunch, but like, I mean, Blake Costanzo, the crazy special teams, you know, guy who runs down the field, like I was inspired by that, right? Like, that was like— I, I saw that and I was like, oh my God, I'm not even close to where he is, right? Like, this guy plays with like this reckless abandonment, fearless, right? Like, he's so present, he's like grateful for the opportunity. And like, I was miserable trying to like hide from this thing and like uncomfortable. But like, in some ways, like, again, he didn't call me out publicly or anything, but like, dude, when he came over to my school, when he came over to my school and was like, dude, are you going to live today or what?

Like, it's like, cool.

You know, like, get your ass in gear, Alex.

Yeah, man. Like, dude, fuck.

Shane, did you ever get called out?

You always strike me as the person doing the calling out on a team. You know, I was called out by an opponent one time. I don't know if I told the story on Glue Guys, but we're I was playing for the Grizzlies my rookie year and we were bad. I mean, we were like a really bad team. I think our record was like 12-30 at some point. And, you know, in Memphis they had the score 100 points, you know, everyone gets a free chalupa if the team wins, right? And so we're playing the Houston Rockets and I hit a 3 and we're up by like 10 with like a minute left. I hit a 3, put us up over 100. And so I go down the court and I start eating an imaginary chalupa. I don't know why the hell I did that. Like, I've never done that. But I just was so happy for the fans of Memphis. And I reacted and I was eating my air chalupa. And as soon as the buzzer sounded, you know, Glenn Rice, who was a guy who I, you know, I grew up in Michigan. He's from Michigan, a great player at Michigan. I watched him win, you know, a national championship at Michigan. You know, legend comes up to me after the game and says, man, don't do that. Don't do that, man. You're better than that, man. That's the last time I ever celebrated. I, I've never celebrated on the court, you know, by doing anything stupid ever since then. And I thank Grant, or Glenn, Glenn, for that. And it was, it was an amazing lesson. And he— I was like, yeah, you're right, man. That is not me. I'm an idiot for doing that. But, you know, I just wanted the fans to have a chalupa, but that's the community that enforces this code of conduct that they can't get out of the street.

Morality there to like have the like—

Totally, dude.

Opponent that just beat you, that you go, you like after the game that you're like, come on, man.

But you know what?

That's crazy. That's crazy.

But that, that Shane, I think you, you guys like sort of arrived. This is, I like this a lot, which is like, you know, it's each component is what matters. You need the motivation. You need the community that holds you accountable, but because it loves you, You know what I'm saying? And like, you're better than that. Like, what a, what a cutting remark, but also like, you know what I'm saying? So impactful. And yeah, like, I actually, the reason I found the article so interesting is like, I think that he got so much right of like, you need enduring motivation, stewardship, craftsmanship, you need community. I think it was just like, you know, and I think he's right that religion can provide some of those elements. It just doesn't have to be that, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think there are other ways to get there.

I, well, I, I definitely took, and I do agree with this, I guess I hope, like, I, morality is important.

Yeah.

Like, like, uh, yeah, being ethical is important.

Hot take.

Yeah. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, we live in a competitive culture. It's a lot of sharp elbows, a lot of sharp elbows. I mean, high school kids kind of get taught this, right? Like, There's only, you know, college admissions, right? And you gotta like get yours. And, um, you know, again, it could be the downside of, of, of a competitive environment, right? But like, it almost alluded that this is a more lasting quality, right? That doesn't often get celebrated. Certainly religions celebrate it, but it often does get lost in like, you know, again, this idea of, um, kind of, you know, zero sum, like you gotta get yours. you know, and being competitive. And I think I thought it was a great reminder.

Yeah, I, I think also the other thing is let's keep sending each other stuff because I love when we, you know, find things that we're reading. Alex, you kind of owe us—

you kind of have several.

Yeah, you kind of owe us a couple readings, you know. And so, all right, well, thanks for— thanks for going through this with me, guys. And if you want it, for Glue Guys listeners, check out Rented Virtue by Will Menediz. And also, Will's pretty prolific, so you will be— you'll learn a lot every time you read something he writes. Like, you know, the story about the Quaker is a story about Adam Smith. So, you know, would recommend reading, uh, you know, our friend Will's stuff.

Alex, you've been watching the NBA playoffs?

Yeah, I mean, the East, what a dud. God.

Yeah, that was bad. That was—

The West has been amazing, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's going to be awesome.

And I love that the refs have been letting them play. Like, the defense has been incredible. And those two fan bases, it's like—

Yep.

Yep.

Am I the only one who sees that? I just feel like the defense, what they let them do now—

Oh, for sure.

Pretty aggressive.

Yeah, and they're not giving Shea Alls flopping, you know.

Yeah, totally.

Just hilarious.

They should.

And Wemby is just like, so he's gonna win like 10 MVPs. Like, I know, once he just figures it out. I mean, he's close to figuring out now. Like, once he figures it out, he's gonna win the MVP every year. No, he hasn't figured it out.

That's the thing.

Like, he's starting to. He's already the best defender of all time. Like, That's my hot take.

But like, I kind of— he seems tough, which, you know, they've been beating him up. He doesn't complain. He just—

yeah, no, he doesn't.

He doesn't. He doesn't.

Just takes it.

Yeah, like he doesn't—

you know what I'm saying?

It doesn't get to him. He just seems like, all right, you know.

Yep, yep. He's good, man.

They're so— like, I love watching Castle.

He's so springy. He he's just, if he could ever learn to shoot, I mean, he'd be a monster. I mean, he's a monster already, but he's so athletic.

He's got some throwback, I feel like, attitude. He's got, you know.

Oh yeah.

He's got some dog in him.

Yeah.

Where is LeBron going next year, Shane? Come on, on the record.

I would have said, I would have said if the Knicks would have lost, he would have gone to New York. But, but since they are in the finals, he's not, he doesn't want to be, doesn't want to be a bandwagon, does not want to be Kevin Durant. So he will not go to New York. But I was saying that before, like New York loses, LeBron can go and be kind of the last piece and be the king of New York. And that's that kind of like completes the prophecy, you know, do the Warriors have a chance? Yeah, 100%. Like, if San Antonio loses, I could see him going to San Antonio to ride the Wemby train. I could see that. Couldn't you?

No, it'd be great. Yeah, I mean, they're so young, right? Like, who else are they— I mean, how many guys are they paying?

Phoenix, I could see. Golden State, I could see. San Antonio, if they lose.