Has NIL Permanently Damaged College Sports? - [Glue Guys, Ep. 73]

But if it were the current landscape, like, there's not a chance I ever play professionally. Like, Urban would have just brought a transfer quarterback in.

Yeah. Yeah.

It was a bona fide guy, and I would have never seen the field or even had an opportunity to become what my career became. Shane and all his college teammates at Duke out of this and their experience as like a student athlete, what has changed for the rest of the Duke nation? Oh, now that it become is like, now that it's become like a pay-for-play system, has the— do you think that product is any different or the experience is any different for the average Duke student or Duke alumni that still bleeds blue and cheers and watches his team on into the, you know, the NCAA tournament?

Uh, yes and no. I think that the obvious thing that Duke has done extraordinarily well, genuinely, is the fact that it consistently has a competitive team and it like means something to wear the Duke jersey. Like, the players even act like it means something to them. Like, they talk about the brotherhood, all that. It makes it fun to be a fan that's not just like rooting for laundry, you know what I'm saying? Like, it feels like there's there is something that connects the players to the program. Like, even they talk about it. Like, the fact that Tatum will come back and, you know, post an Instagram video at Duke. The fact that—

wasn't he a one and done?

No, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that, but like, there is some connectivity to like, I'm a Duke guy, that still seems to exist despite the fact that people leave. The thing that is different is like, dude, like, when the players stayed for longer, as a fan, you did get to like appreciate them more over time. Right. Like, you know, even for sure that relationship.

Yeah.

Like, you know, even Brother Bhatia here, I remember the game where he went and like talked about how he'd studied like Buddhist monks, you know, beforehand. And then all of a sudden started hitting all these threes. And we were like, oh my God.

If anything, people complained that I was there too long. People were like, damn, get the hell out of here. Baguette is back. Good Lord, that guy's been around forever.

So Alex, I think that, I think that for other programs, I actually think it's much worse because I don't think there's much connectivity. And I think Duke is in this case a little bit of a positive exception to the rule.

Okay. And for everybody out there, before we press record, we had gotten into this discussion. And I think you bring up a great example of like, so the one and done has been happening for a while at Duke, right? Like they kind of crossed that threshold, Coach K, a long time ago. But what is the difference that Cooper Flagg makes a bunch of money while he's there wearing a Duke uniform for one year to become the number one pick or Cam Boozer, right? Like that experience, I don't think for the rest of Duke nation is that much different just because they're getting paid.

I want people to get paid. I want that. I think that to me, maybe the thing that is, and frankly, I don't, however people want to do it is good. Capitalism is great. I think that, I think the specific point I'm making is when Duke players seem to come they seem to buy into the program as well as getting paid. Like there is something that they're getting and they feel like they're bought in. If somebody does not seem to have any affinity for the school at all and is there as like, this is a way for me to make money for 4 months or 6 months or 9 months, that's fine too. It's just different than historically college sports have been where it felt like there was some choice or affinity. And like, dude, you have a Utah logo over your left shoulder. Shane has a Duke, you know, uh, plaque over his left shoulder. Like, you tell me. He has Duke everywhere. He has a diploma above his right shoulder. The kids that are going now, I don't think when they're hosting their version of Glue Guys that they're gonna have any fucking affiliation with their college over words, because it was a place for them to get paid for 4 months. Like, that's all I'm saying. I don't have a radio wave.com. But like, listen, over my shoulder where I got paid for 3 months in college, you know, like you don't see that anywhere. Yeah.

But so Shane, they still, Shane still was sold a bill of goods as was I, although I had a lot less choice to be clear that I had one choice. Shane had lots of choices, lots of coaches again, selling him something. Now back then, obviously there was no money involved, but like now it is part of the equation and you're crazy. This romanticism that you think Cooper Flagg would have gone to Duke if he didn't get the, you know, if they didn't CTC, you know, cut the check, Duke. Like, it's crazy, right? It is part of the equation. I do think there are kids that it is way too high on their list of priorities, right? Like, they're optimizing too much in the short term than the long term.

But what was— what has changed?

That's my point. I don't think anything has changed.

You think that it used to be like, oh man, I'm, I'm so excited to, to get my degree at at Kennesaw State or wherever you're going to school.

Like, I agree.

I, it's always been about opportunity, right?

Could not agree more. This idea that, and again, this like romanticism about how this has changed, I actually like disagree. Like guys were still getting sold a bill of goods and they didn't fall in love with the school until you actually got there and experienced it anyway, right? Like, I mean, I knew Utah, I didn't love Utah before I got there and got my degree and had these relationships and experiences that were like amazing. Right. But like, that doesn't happen until you choose this. And up until that point, you're just getting, dude, hey, look at our nice facility.

No, no, you don't. Don't take this like, oh, there's no romance in it. On this podcast, you've said 300 times, I love college football. You could go there and get your education. You— there was something about it that was different than pro football for you. And I will point this out for you to say there's no romance. What's the name of the weight room at the University of Utah football?

The Alex Smith Weight Room.

The Alex Smith Weight Room.

Okay, pretty romantic and deservedly so, Shane.

I've been, you know, I'm saying it obviously did something for you that you went and donated your first, you know, paycheck from the NFL. The place where it went was the Utah University, you know, like that, that, that's different than it is now.

I don't, I don't think so. You think Cooper Flagg's not gonna potentially donate back or like campuser, right? Just because they only— because they got paid to go there and again only played a year.

I don't think Duke is the best example here. I think Duke has maintained some connectivity where people actually have a connection with the school. I think a lot of other places, they do not care about where they went at all. And I do think that that has changed a bit, you know, that's what I'm saying. And I don't know, I mean, you guys tell me, but I think it— some affinity or affiliation with the place that you went to college is less now because it's just like, where can I get paid the most money?

For sure. But like, so I get asked all the time, my favorite team. Shane, I'm sure gets asked the same thing. Like, again, my pro career is no different. I didn't play for one team. I don't— it doesn't mean that I didn't love or appreciate or I'm grateful for my time at all of my stops and cherish those. Does that make sense? But like, just because a kid now is route through college, that is very different. He's not spending 5 years probably at one school. He may He may be at 3 schools, right? Like it's different, but I don't know if it's worse, I guess.

Well, you know, I was talking to, you know, a bunch of Michigan alums after Michigan won the national championship and they admitted like it was awesome. We loved it. But there was something about it. There was something about it that just didn't, didn't hit. And, you know, what I think we're talking about here, and it's always been prevalent in sports, always is sports tribalism. And I lived this when I was in Miami. People did not like the Miami Heat. Why? Because LeBron went, took his talents to South Beach, right? Dwyane, you know, Dwyane Wade was the only homegrown talent of the Miami Heat. Chris Bosh came, right? And so somehow people look down at that, not as an unbelievable front office orchestration of a strategy to get all this talent on one roster with salary cap. Constraints. They looked at the San Antonio Spurs as like the example of like, oh, their championship, their team was much more pure because Tim Duncan was drafted by them. You know, Manu Ginobili, Tony Parker, they were born Spurs and they're still Spurs. So like, they're a more pure team, which I think is absolute crap, right? You know, it's, I think it's complete happenstance and one is not better than the other. And that's professional sports. But I think that argument. And you see this now in the World Cup, you know, the people who get upset with France, with Mbappé and Dembélé, and they say, no, those guys aren't French. No, they are French because they were born in France, right? And so the sports tribalism and the purity of homegrown versus brought in or recruited or mercenary, I think it's starting to come out. Do you disagree with that type, with that take?

I do a little bit in the sense of like pro sports. You don't have a choice as a player, right? You're told where to go. You did not have a choice.

That's at the draft. After free agency, you do.

You do. So like Jalen Brunson, great example.

I was just about to say Brunson. Even some high school grad.

Let me tell you this, the New York Knicks fans don't care if he wasn't homegrown, right? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like it doesn't matter. And again, he did get to free agency. He got to choose it. That whole roster for the most part. Is not homegrown. And again, so a little bit of this, you know, you mentioned the Spurs, obviously they've been pretty spoiled over the years with Pop, you know, and kind of have a different perspective on it. I do come back to the college thing again, and I understand I'm kind of playing games.

Wait, wait, just real quick. Does Tom Brady's championship, any of them, mean more than Peyton Manning's Broncos championship?

No.

Because he's homegrown.

Okay. No.

Okay.

Well, I don't think so.

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I mean, that's why I'm asking.

I don't know. To my understanding, I think Peyton lives in Denver. Like, they love him and he loves Denver. Like, it didn't— it doesn't make again, like, his time in Indy.

No, I don't think you guys— I actually don't think you guys— I think— hold on. Stop being professional athletes for a second and be fans for a second. Okay, when you wear the Lions hat, like that big hat that you wear during the Lions game, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah, like if the Lions like put together some super team tomorrow and none of the players were any of the players that you cheered for the last 5 years, okay, I don't know how to think about this hypothetical, but let's just say the Lions They just put together a fricking all-star team and none of them have played for the Lions ever. And then they just like show up next year and they play for a year and you guys win the Super Bowl.

Do you think that would be as satisfying? You know what would be the most satisfying? The most satisfying out of that scenario would be what we've suffered through the last couple of years where we've actually gotten good. We've gotten close to the promised land and we've suffered the heartbreak because Detroit sports is heartbreak.

Yes. No, but see, this is my point.

So no, no. So they've inherited. So now they have the pain. Now they have the pain and they know what it feels like to be a Detroit fan because we came close and it's like, oh, like I thought we thought that. So, so now Jared Goff understands that. Ja'Marr Gibbs understands that. So now if they win, yes, that means more.

Okay.

It means more.

Yeah.

This is my point, which is because of the shared pain, not because they're free agent, because they are one of us now.

I do a little bit.

So shared experience versus whatever the opposite of shared experience is. And that's what we're talking about. Like the Michigan fan saying, no, they didn't have my experience in Michigan. So it doesn't mean as much as someone who lived in East Quad and went to Zingerman's Deli and, you know, like, right? That's what I'm talking about.

So like on the one hand, it is just entertainment. Right? Like, again, it's an escape. It's sports. To your point of, like, the tribalism, like, obviously what we're talking about, what's special about college, and then even your, like, and fandom, right? Like, again, that tribalism, that connection. And again, that's like the storytelling, I think, that comes along with some of this stuff when all of a sudden you are watching because it's entertainment, but you start to hear somebody's story or you watch them over the years, Ravi, develop. And like, again, there is more connection and emotional connection with the players. But I don't know. Again, one of the coolest things in the NBA, this Finals again, which was so unique with Jalen Brunson to come back to him is like Wemby was like, again, potentially player of the year, defensive player of the year. It was like inevitability. Here's this 7'6 alien that's going to take over the NBA. And you still had this old school, —below-average height, lefty, unorthodox point guard that just absolutely dominated. And that storyline, especially a little bit of physical underdog, takes place. And there's this huge bond, I think, that all of a sudden people buy in that aren't even Knicks fans, right? And again, there's shared misery there, Shane. I think a lot of people can identify. Knicks fans hadn't experienced a championship in what, 30-plus years, right? And so there's connection to Yeah, 53 years, I think. 53 years, right? Like, and it's like, man, you're happy for that.

But that's where the shared pain— that, I think that's what I'm saying is like, it's not— Shane, I think tribalism is interesting. I agree with you, like tribalism is like the thing that we're talking about. I think the reason that people seem to not like the Heat was it was like the frontrunner thing rather than like the import thing, because Brunson was imported to the, you know, you know what I'm saying, to the Knicks. Nobody gives a shit, you know, because it wasn't like he joined like this winning team. And I think there's something about what you said about the Lions, like, in order for it to be like good entertainment, like real beyond entertainment, I guess, the shared pain is the unique part. And I think what people were saying with you guys was there wasn't that pain that was shared amongst like Miami Heat fans, you know, beforehand. Right. It was just like they showed up and then they started winning. And I think that was different than like, again, the Heat might not be the best, the best example.

If this happened in Utah, shout out Salt Lake City, people would not have been up in arms. If this happened, if LeBron and D-Wade and Chris Bosh decided to all go to Toronto and be with Chris Bosh, people would not have been up in arms. Okay. It was, it's, it's the perception of Miami and it's like, no, it's not fair. It's not fair that you get to live in Miami, have unbelievable weather, no state tax, and win championships. That's bullshit. All right. Like that. I think that, that was the anger more, more than anything else. Right. Yeah.

And, and, but that's, and also the tribalism is interesting. Like the Knicks fans, I actually was going to say the same thing as what you said, Alex, which is that the Knicks fans, I think that they feel like these guys are like real Knicks. You know what I'm saying? Like they, they're like, these guys have embraced New York. They represent the way we want to play. And like, funny enough, there is actually something to like the way that they play that does actually associate with like Knicks teams of old. But I think I reject the idea that it's just entertainment. I think there is something for the fans that like feels different. And I think tribalism is a better word for it where like, it's not like you're just watching a movie. It's— there's some level of investment in it as a fan. That makes you, you know what I'm saying?

Like, you need them to believe it too.

The players.

But it doesn't, it doesn't, you don't know that going into it, right? Like that relationship again for Knicks fans, they don't know that Jalen Brunson is going to turn into what he is. That OG, is this going to be this amazing glue guy like Hart? They have all these guys that play, you know, amazing, tough basketball that you're right. I think New Yorkers grew to love and identify with, but that happens over time. Like you got to watch the movie. Right.

Like to again, to get pulled in and watch sports, watching— this is the whole point. College sports is never going to turn into a great movie if nobody gives a shit about the team.

It's just a shorter film. Sorry? It's just a shorter film, you know, especially now with the transfer portal. But again, you loved watching Duke. You love watching Cooper Flagg. You love watching Cam. I love our Devils.

I love our Devils. I love them a little less than I did when I was younger, not just because I'm like older now, it's because it is a little bit harder to like stay connected to it because the team changes so much every year. Like there was, there is something, I do think that this idea, I really like the entertainment point of like, I think for the fans, sports when it's at its best is not just entertainment. It is something more than that. And it is because the players buy into it too, right? Like, if the players truly are just like, I don't— this is why the NBA playoffs or the NFL playoffs, they are different, because it's like, nah dude, it's not about like— it doesn't feel like it's just the money there. It's like these guys are like giving everything, and they're like, it matters that they win. And you're like, oh man, like, it's because, because there's consequence.

Because there's consequence. And in this world of NIL, do you think there is any consequence for not living up to your, your NIL payment? Yeah, for sure. So in the pros, like, legacy's on the line. Okay. So like, it hurt Wemby that he lost because that's a chance that he may or may not ever get again, right? Yeah. I love that Wemby was hurting so much from it. That's legacy. Is it like, of course, these guys hurt because they lose and they put a lot into it. I'm not trying to diminish— and these ladies, their feelings. But is there less consequence of underperforming your NIL contract now in any sport? I don't know.

I mean, my, my first reaction was like, yeah, of course they have a professional contract, right? Like they're getting paid. Expectations go up if you don't live up to them. But how many times have we seen a huge prized high school recruit, the number one recruit in the country, right? The number one quarterback in the country, the number one basketball recruit in the country, Jesus Shuttlesworth. Like, and if they don't pan out, if they don't pan out, regardless if it was before NIL, that still stings for that entire fan base, right? Like, that entire college fan base knew who was coming in, this big recruit they got, their hopes and dreams. And if you don't live up to it and it fizzles, that, like, no one forgets that. Well, so, okay, so despite them making a little bit of money.

Yeah, so I, okay, I think, I, I think, is there a consequence? Yes, I think the consequence is your likelihood of achieving, you know, professional success probably goes down. You know what I'm saying? Like if you underperform your NIL deal, maybe that means you're less likely to get, you know, to the pros. I think that probably has implications, like consequence in terms of like, you know, feeling whatever the people that love you, support you, like you're letting them down. I think that consequence still exists. I think the consequence that's very different is Shane, like if you would have played poorly in the NCAA tournament in 2001, yeah, your draft stock might have gone down, maybe, right? But what I think you would have, would have like haunted you is like you letting your team down. That, right? Like that's the thing, the consequence that mattered, I presume the most, even though like your career is on the line, right? Would have been that like you let these people down who mattered to you so much.

I did. I think in the, in the finals in 1999 against UConn, I was horse shit. Like, I missed layups. Kevin Freeman, like, kicked my ass. Like, I, like, I was— I felt I let the team down.

Yeah. And like, that is crazy, right? I think that is gone. I, I think it's gone, but it is way diluted in terms of like what people feel about letting the team down based on NIL and all of these things now, which again is fine, but it's certainly a less compelling product too, even as a fan. When the players, you know, it's like watching an AAU game. You know, it's just what we were talking about before we started recording, watching an AAU game versus watching a high school game. I'd much rather watch, you know, truly like a high school game for some team that actually cared about each other than the AAU game. It's like, cool, the players are better, but like, you know, it's not a real basketball game. They got a game in a few hours.

They got a game, right? High school, you got a week of practice, right? You got to think about it. AAU, like, all right, we got a game in 3 hours.

So you're saying all of a sudden, though, like, they're just— all they're thinking about is their individual path to success over team. And you think this has changed just because of NIL? No, no, no.

I don't think it's just because of NIL. I think it's been a spectrum for a long time. All I'm saying is I am so happy that players are getting paid. I frankly think it's crazy that they weren't getting paid for all this time because the college sports, college programs were making all this money. And the players didn't get any of it. I genuinely think it's that. I was making the very narrow point that it's not about getting paid, it's about having no affiliation with your team, right? Other than like it is the thing that cuts the check for a short period of time means the product is less compelling to watch because, you know, like the players don't obviously care about each other as much. And I genuinely, in my heart, I believe that like Duke is a bit of an exception in a good way where like the players seem to actually give a shit about each other, which like credit to Shire, credit to these guys.

This is— you're, you're so naive. This is just sounding— this is sounding crazy. I don't— Utah's QB, Devin Dampier, I don't care that he played his first 2 years of school at New Mexico State and then transferred to us now and has been a multi-year starter. It's not much different if he'd have just been a redshirt or third-string quarterback that I've never heard of sitting on Utah's bench. Like the fact that he went to a smaller school first for 2 years, then came to us and has now been a multi-year starter. I still love watching him play. I didn't know him those first 2 years anyway. Right? Like if you're just like some young freshman sitting on the bench—

No, but does it matter to you that he cares about his teammates when watching the game?

Well, of course, but like, I don't think that's exclusive.

That's all I'm saying.

Like it matters. I don't think that's exclusive to somebody that stays at one school for 5 years.

No, it's not. It's not. It's just harder is all I'm saying. It is easier to care about somebody if you spend some time with them. And if you're going to spend 4 months somewhere and then you're going to leave, it is harder to build connectivity and caring. And the reason I'm definitely right about this is because like Nick Saban says this too. And you know, like all the guys who are like around this stuff forever, They're like, dude, it's way easier to build a team when you like have more time.

The coaching perspective is way different because that's completely changed in college. Like there's no more tough love coach, right? Like you can't. Yeah. It is literally a pay for play, right? Like it's, you know, it's transactional in that regard. But my point is going back to the fandom experience. I don't know how much that has actually changed.

I don't know. I think what Shane said about like the Michigan fans, dude, like, listen, like Jaxel Lundeberg got drafted by the Warriors. I hope he becomes a superstar player for the Dubs. But I would imagine that if you're a Michigan fan, you know, a 23-year-old kid who has no association with Michigan comes for a year, helps you win a chip, that's great. But like, you can't quite feel the same way as you would if like you saw him from when he was 17 years old. He shows up. You've seen him get better. He wasn't good the first year. It is different. You're still happy that he won you a chip.

But like, and I push back on that, Alex. I think if the quarterback, what's his name for Utah now?

Devin Dampier.

Devin Dampier. If he would have came in as a freshman, right? And we talked about this, like you got to play. So like he had to do what he had to do. Now he's a big time, you know, NIL lifting weights in the Alex Smith, you know, weight center. Yeah. So he had to do what he had to do. But if you knew he started out at Utah and, you know, sat the bench and learned and went through it, right? I think you would like him even more than you do now because you know the process and there was some pain. There was some consequence. There was some consequence and there was some pain the kid went through to wait his turn, right? I'm sure he went through pain in New Mexico State, but you didn't really— you weren't part of that journey. And again, that, that is the— again, time plus connection equals relationship equals love equals, right? And you just can't, you can't manufacture it. You can't rush it. You can't fake it. I don't know.

Like, lots of factors here. Utah probably didn't offer him because we didn't see the talent, which was a mistake. Then again, we talked about this, Shane, right? Like, if he'd have gone and sat for 2 years as a, as a third-string quarterback at Utah, then all of a sudden that job comes open. What's Utah going to do? They're going to go in the transfer portal and get some kid that's been playing for 3 years to come in for the starting job. And now Devin Dampier is at a disadvantage because he chose this route. And I don't even think he had the chance to choose that route again. I don't think Utah even offered him because they didn't see the talent, right? Oh, he's too short. Oh, whatever. So he does go to New Mexico State and plays great and develops for 2 years and then makes this transition. I still love that story. This is no different. Then Knicks fans loving Jalen Brunson's story, right? Like, okay, college, he's the glue guy of this great college team, right? Then he goes to the Mavs and he's still kind of a role player. He's second fiddle to what's-his-bucket. Finally gets free agency. The Knicks take a shot at him and he becomes the man. Do you think Knicks fans don't love his story just because he wasn't wearing a Knicks jersey the entire time?

Well, but he became one of them. He became one of them. I mean, how many years has Brunson been on the Knicks before he won the championship?

And he's 5'10". Like, of course people love him. Like, he's like the most relatable NBA player because he's 5'10", doing amazing things. Yes. I, you know, if I were 5'10", I'd love him too.

And extra reason just for all the Glue Guy Nation, Stevens High School graduate. You know, that's what we really love about him. You know, he went to my high school. Love Jaylen Brunson. Yeah, of course. The thing that I would say, Alex, on this is New York has embraced Jalen Brunson. And even then, like he did his part of before they won. He was like, he like felt like he cared about being in New York. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think he's like really embraced, you know, like whatever New York Knicks basketball is, he has embraced it and he has embodied it and he represented it. It also helps. I think that like they, they had some more pain even together. The Knicks have had shared pain for 50 years. And I don't know how long Brunson's been on the Knicks, but like it's been a few years without them winning. Right. 3 or 4 years. And like those, how long you think Shane? I think 3 or 4 years.

Yeah. Okay.

Alex, let me, let me ask you this. Do you think it matters? I'm sure you guys saw this on like Instagram. Do you guys see the Cavs reunion? The 2016 Cavs reunion where they like went out and played golf and all that stuff? Cool. Yeah. I would posit that it is more fun as a fan to watch a team that will ultimately have a reunion. Okay, than it is to not— to watch a team that would never get together again, even if they won. And my only point there is like that Cavs team, which like frankly beat a team that I wish had beaten them, you know, the Warriors team. But like that Cavs team, the fact that 10 years later they like get together, I bet that it was like— it's like more fun to have watched them because they gave a shit about each other. And I think that very few of these college teams appear to me that they're going to have a reunion. At any point.

Hold on, I disagree. Listen, first off, I would actually—

you like the reunion test?

That's a pretty good callery.

Okay, that's pretty good. The hypothetical I would posit, the hypothetical you threw out, is unrealistic. Because if it is truly a group of mercenaries, I don't think they win the championship. I mean, I, I like— again, I think like no matter how talented they are, okay, at 100 times, sure, they might win a couple,. But like, if you ran this over, this experiment over and over and over again, they're actually not going to win the championship because of that makeup. And regardless of what a couple Michigan fans say, we don't know the bond of this Michigan team. And regardless, again, I know their relationships are shorter, but it doesn't mean that they can't come together and still have this lifelong experience of winning it all and that they aren't going to, you know, it was so good that Dusty May went to the Mavs. All his guys left. It meant so much.

All his guys left.

Yeah, you know, he was so crushed that they all went to the NBA.

Yeah, Dusty May is a smart man because he knew that was lightning in a bottle and the work it took to get one championship was yeoman's work. And so he said, I'm not doing that again.

But we don't know how close or not close that team is. You know, we don't. We don't.

We don't. And honestly, actually, all jokes aside, I actually thought that team did look like relatively close. Like they seem like. They liked, cared about each other. Like, in all seriousness, I actually think that the— I think you've made a lot of shitty points today, Alex, but one point I think you've made that's been pretty good is that, like, there does have to be some level of connectivity amongst the team in order to win, you know? And that, that can happen over a short period. And just like the Coach K thing that he said, speed to trust, like, you know, that's— I, I understand.

We got the man right here, okay? Shane And his guys go to Miami, they win a couple championships. Are you guys not having reunions? Are you guys not close? Is that team just a bunch— like, that literally, if I think, if you looked up a team of mercenaries, the Miami Heat might come up as a prime example from the outside. Are you guys not— were those relationships not real? I have never been called a mercenary.

I've been called a winner wherever I go. Okay, answer the question.

Are you guys close?

That's, I was like a glue guy, not a mercenary. Can glue guys be mercenaries?

You wear a glue guy t-shirt. Yeah. Listen, let's be fair.

You are the definition of glue guy. You are like literally the prime A example. However, that team, that team, I think from an outside perspective was, you know, could be called mercenaries.

We, are you, were you guys not close? To Ravi's point, we cared very deeply about each other. Right. We went through two, you know, not just one, you know, two years. Some of those guys there for 4 years, that there was a lot of noise and there was a lot of circling of the wagons in that locker room. And we had no choice. And you saw the difference between the Heat in 2010, they lost to the Mavs in 2011 and 2012 when we won the championship. You know, I wasn't there, but I understood, again, we talk about pain.

There was pain that that team went through.

There was pain. And they came together. And the connection is real. And so like, we haven't gone to play golf in Scotland. Maybe that day will come, but there's no doubt that if we saw any one of each other on the street, we'd buy each other a beer and there'd be a big hug. And, you know, we can look at each other and say, look, we did something really, really hard that most people don't even come close to. Hell yeah.

And that is what matters. But Shane, I think that— Yeah. Okay. I rest my case.

I rest my case.

No, no, hold on, hold on. Hypothetical, hypothetical for you, Shane. Um, Alex, I think that the existence of the shared pain, right, was a big deal for that Heat team caring about each other. And they had shared pain when they lost in 2010, and everyone's like, you guys suck and you got what you deserved. And you know what I'm saying? All that. And then like, and then against Boston, was that in 2011 when they were down 3-2 or whatever? 2012. 2012. You know, let's say LeBron had just gone there and Shane, you would have never been there. Okay. He wins the first year. He wins the second year. Okay. They just go off and they start reeling off wins. No, they never have the loss. Do you think that team like circles the wagons and has all that stuff? Or do you think it required the loss together?

No, that team is not beloved. That team is looked at like a super team. It'd be very analogous to the Warriors. The different Warrior championships have more meaning. All right. The first championship that they won with Steph and Draymond and Klay, it's a little bit different than the 80-win team, the Golden State Warriors.

And the 122 is different too.

I think it feels different.

I think it feels different.

You guys are out there. So you tell me, but from afar, I think those championships felt a little bit different.

Shane, how many years were you in Miami altogether?

I was there 3 years. My last 3.

How many championships did you win? 2. Okay, so this shared pain nonsense, right? Like, listen, and again, I still say no team is winning the championship unless they do circle the wagons, right? Like, it just doesn't happen.

But because there is no easy road to a championship, I think I know where you're going. And let me cut you off there. So again, this is part of developing the trust of the fandom. When you go to a situation where they've had pain, you inherit that pain for sure, right? Yeah. And so all of a sudden, I didn't experience that pain, but these guys are my brothers. I feel the pain. I feel what they learned from the Dallas Mavericks, even though I was watching from TV. And I say, you know what, your pain's my pain. Right? And that's no different than the fans that we're talking about today. You know, if you come in and you embrace that pain and say, you know what, Detroit, I feel you, man. I feel you. You haven't won in forever. Like, I get it. I get it. Those guys haven't been there for 48 years like I have, right? But they've embraced it. So yeah, they're my guys now. They're my guys. So you can have transactional things in sports. Okay. But to Ravi's point is, what we don't see in the tenor is different because the collective pain, the collective buy-in isn't what it used to be.

Am I wrong, Ravi Gupta? And I think that the point for me is, if we go back to college sports at the beginning, I think you're saying it's possible to create it with an amazing leader and an amazing community. And I agree with you. It is possible. I am telling you that it was prevalent. It was more prevalent 20 years ago when they stayed for longer. Right? And the coach was there for longer. And there was a senior on the team who would be like, yo, this is how we do things. And all I'm saying is it is definitely less interesting now to watch because, not because they get paid, but because it's, there's a shorter amount of time. And on average, there's less connection. I'm not saying that there's no connection. And I definitely think that the Lions one, like the thing that Dan Campbell did was like, he became one of you guys basically immediately. There was something that he did to like make himself like a Detroit guy. You know what I'm saying? Like early. And then he's created, maybe it's by having grit be like the thing that he like, I think properly identified what it meant to be, you know, part of Detroit. Right. And then he's gotten these guys to buy in. And the point I was making earlier was I think if you guys had some, you got rid of Jared Goff, you got rid of all these guys, you got rid of Dan Campbell and you have some like super team come in for a year. And you won it, I don't think it would be as satisfying for the Lions fans if those guys didn't know anything about Detroit. They didn't care about Detroit. I personally would guess you'd put your big hat on with less pride, you know, if that happened. But that's—

I still put it on. I'd still put it on. All right. Okay.

Okay. I got a lot here.

Shane, maybe not as fast. Could not agree with you as much verve, but yes, I'd put it on.

Shane, I could not agree with you more that a player coming into a situation can inherit the history of that franchise, right? Like I got traded to Kansas City. They had, they were the number one pick in the draft. They had not won a playoff game in 30 years. There was like pain there that all of a sudden, even the combination of what I had been through, right? Like, yes, one man's trash, another man's treasure, that whole like storyline. And they embraced me and it was amazing. I wasn't drafted there. Even when I get traded to Washington, right? The mess that was the Washington franchise, right? Dan Snyder, it was a debacle, right? Like you immediately felt that when you lived in the community, right? Like you felt the fans' passion for this franchise, their struggle with the last couple decades on how bad it had been. That was real, right? Like despite me making money again and the contract involved, like in all both of those situations, like very real. My point, Ravi, is like, and again, like my first instinct was the same, right? Like NIL happening, like again, players should get paid, but this experience from fandom is different, right? Like the selflessness is gone. I just, I think as you actually like break it down, and I think Shane's point is great, is that it actually hasn't gone. Devin Dampier, I love watching this guy play. I love his storyline. He has embraced what it means, I think, to be a Ute, right? Like to be a part of this, you know, what we stand for and are about. And I love watching him play. Like, I don't think that those things are gone just because these guys' routes now look different and they're making some money along the way. Like, I don't know. Like, again, as I've just like— and again, part of me being devil's advocate, but I don't— I get it. I get it. Like, when you actually think about it. And I think you make the great point because you keep saying Duke's an exception. And I am not sure everybody probably feels the same way about their alumni. They're like, oh, well, we're the exception. You know, you don't think Texas fans think that or Ohio State fans?

Honestly, dude, so much of the credit for Duke goes to Shire though. In all seriousness, because the thing that is continuous at Duke is he's there and he fully like embraces like what it means to be at Duke. And as a result, and like, dude, like that makes a big difference. If we were rotating through coaches every year, right. And everything was different every year. There's no consistency. There is consistency, right. Of like, you know, what's there, but maybe I'm wrong, but I, I think that. In a vacuum, I think it's maybe as simple as this. The less time you have together, the harder it is to build some of that shared sacrifice, shared pain. And so it is less common that it exists now than it did before. And I do think that as a fan, sports are more than entertainment. And I think the World Cup perfectly embodies this, dude. People are not watching the World Cup just because it's like, oh, it's great soccer. There's like identity, there's like, you know, right. And the fact it's crazy, think about like in the world what's going on. And then the whole world is like, let's like watch this World Cup. And it is because it is, it's more meaningful than the entertainment. It's not.

Oh yeah, it's the Scottish fans taking over Boston and the boat. It's the Norwegian fans doing the rowing, Mexico fans, right? Like Azteca. Yeah, I agree the fandom, but that goes back to this tribalism.

Right. But that comes from some shared pain. Back to, you know, Brother Baddier's theory.

Yeah. I have a question to bring it back to the players, but I don't know the answer. Do you think the players think that they bought in and inherit the pain? Right. Do we lack— so like in general, I think we lack great teachers in our world, you know, to teach, you know, the things that we were taught as kids, as old-fashioned as that sounds. I think in general, and I think that extends to coaching, you know, where they're not great examples of inheriting pain and going through trials and tribulations. And, you know, as— I'm going to make a generalization, but when you see the transfer portal, a majority of these guys aren't just, you know, just, "Oh, there's better opportunity." It's, "Oh man, like, I was wrong. I'm not getting the opportunity." You know, it's not my problem. It's the schools. I'm out of here. I'm out of here. Right? So there is a general lack of resilience. And that's a huge generalization. I know I'm characterizing everybody. But do these young people think that there's anything wrong with that? Or is that where we're at in sports? Like, no, no, bro. It's fine. It's fine. This is what sports is. It's transactional. And it's here and now. And it's what can you do for me? And Maybe that is their worldview because they don't have better teachers or examples to teach them otherwise.

Again, a few things here, right? Like we brought up World Cup and it just like hits me like that, like Flo Balogun, right? Like the forward that became, right, like beloved obviously over this World Cup in America. I mean, this guy has a British accent, right? Like this guy was born here kind of on a crazy story. His wife, I mean, his mom wasn't allowed to leave, right? Born in New York City. He could have played for like several teams. He chooses here. But like, I love watching this guy wear red, white, and blue and score goals for us. Our manager is Argentinian, right? Like Pochettino. Like, it doesn't matter to me that he's not, right? Like the last World Cup when we had Berhalter as our manager, like just because he's US-born, like I actually, that doesn't change anything for me. Like I want us to be competitive. And so I don't think that changes anything. And again, I do, your point on resiliency is interesting, right? Because like Transfer Portal, right? Like these kids just don't stick it out anymore. That's the, perception, right? Like the hardship comes and they'll just transfer and go somewhere else. But like, I think for every one of those, I think to like Cam Ward, who was the number 1 pick in the draft in football, you know, a couple of years ago. And this guy like started at like a D3 school in Texas, like Incarnate Ward, and then is like 2 years there and then moves to Washington State for 2 years and then his final year is at Miami. And right, like this guy becomes the number 1 pick and that road of resilience, even though he went to 3 colleges, I think is remarkable, right?

Yeah. It's also survivor bias. We can, we can make a lot of cases for the survivors and their great story, but the countless people who don't make it, the other 99.9% who don't make it and play that transactional game, like what's the lesson there?

What's the story? Do you think it was any different before NIL? You still had 99.9% of kids not making it. To the bigs. A small fraction are, but like, do we think that— I, I would, I guess I would guess there's still like the same amount of resiliency and non-resiliency. So I actually think that—

I actually don't think it's NIL in this case. Um, so, you know, everyone talks about like barriers to entry, right? You know, uh, you know, in business and anything of like, you know, how deep is your moat. But there's a concept that I like that, um, Jonathan Haidt talks about, which is barriers to exit. Right. Which is like, actually, how easy is it to leave whatever situation you're in? And he, his point is that communities, uh, online is actually like, it's, uh, a lot of people behave poorly online because it's too easy to exit the community. It's, you can just exit the community, right? It's not like around your neighborhood, you know, you can just be like, say something stupid and then leave. And then nobody ever knows who you were. I should think that, I don't know if this is a good thing or a bad thing, but in college in the past, the fact that you had to sit out a year if you transferred. Right. There is a barrier to exit there, which means that like you would, you do have to like take a deep breath before you transfer. Right. Cause there's a cost to doing it. The fact that you can do it now, actually, honestly, like in a free market sense is amazing because like, no dude, like why should I have to wait? Like, you know, I gotta go. It does make it harder for someone to provide you with tough love. Right. Because like you could just like leave without consequence or cost. So Shane, I do think, you know, back to your question at the beginning, which is like, it were maybe Alex, your question is like, is it different now? I don't think it's different because of money. I think it's different because you don't have to sit out a year if you transfer. Yeah. Right. Uh, and I do think that like, uh, what's funny is sports in many ways are actually like, Shane, they're like the teacher of resilience for young kids now, you know, cause like so much of their rest of their existence. Is like coddled or, you know, kind of change the rules if it doesn't go your way. Oh, you don't do well on the test. Maybe you need extra time. Right. Oh, you know, you, uh, you don't like this camp. Like, we'll just pull you out. The one thing that actually is still like meritocratic in youth stuff consistently is sports, which like you can't change whether you win or lose. Like, you know, it happens. I do think that the standard in the past was even higher for that. Because you kind of had to stick around somewhere, you know, versus being able to bounce. And I think that, um, that has like real— I think that has real negatives to it because like, you know, what you had in the past, probably at a college, was somebody who had a similar experience and stuck it out and told you like, yeah, I've been there, but you know, you gotta stay. And you probably just don't have that now. Like you don't have that person saying like, I wanted to transfer too, and I chose not to. You know, because people just like—

yeah, I understand that. And again, I just think that for all of those anecdotes and like storylines that are very true and valid, I just think there's a flip side. And I think back to my college experience again. Oh, and it's like the, hey, one offer I had. I went to Utah. My freshman year was a disaster. Again, like played 7 plays, lost my whole redshirt year, right? Like Urban comes in, the timing of that so fortuitous for me. But if it were the current landscape, like, there's not a chance I ever play professionally. Like, Urban would have just brought a transfer quarterback in. Yeah, yeah. Was a bona fide guy, and I would have never seen the field or even had an opportunity. What my career became. And again, that's where, like, and again, when I say NIL, you're totally right. The transfer portal is obviously such a big part of when I just kind of like lump all that stuff together. However, then given that landscape, my route now has to look different as an under-recruited player, right? If I still have this dream and now I do maybe have to go, right? And that's kind of where I use the Cam Ward example. Like, you have to go this weird road where I'm— you're going to a really tiny school because no one believes in you and you become a starter and then you transfer up to a mid— middle-level school and prove it there. And then all of a sudden now you are at Miami and then the number one pick and like his resiliency is still amazing. Like what he had to go through, it just looks different. Right. And like, I think that's what I—

Oh yeah. If you make it, you're galvanized. If you make it through, you're 100%. The question is, are you going to make it through? Yeah. Right. For sure.

You make it through. Navigating. Yeah. And I think navigating it looks different.

Like that was, that was my mentality at Duke. I mean, Duke was— Coach K was He was a son of a gun. I mean, he was not for everybody. And a lot of guys, you know, said, "Man, I didn't come here for this. I'm out of here." Right? But I knew like, look, if I graduate and I make it through here, like, I'm going to be able to do anything. Forget basketball, like anything, because I went through like the toughest training I ever could have imagined from a coach in terms of discipline and concentration and focus and communication. And so, yeah, like, I hope people go through good adversity in life and get to learn those lessons that I got to learn. And I, you know, I realized I was super blessed and super lucky and I made it through and I was absolutely galvanized when I came through that place. You just wish more kids had the opportunity.

Yeah. And I think, I think the opposite of love, we all know, is the opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. And I think that the thing that it's almost like now it is easier to like exit a situation and be like indifferent, like, oh, okay, cool. I'm not. Not for me, I'm out. Whereas before, your first reaction might actually be like, I hate this guy, you know, but you kind of like have to necessarily deal with it for some period of time. I do wonder, like, I, I will tell you that the transfer portal truly is something I have very complex or conflicting emotions about, which like on one hand, I'm totally like, man, like you cannot restrict somebody's ability to move around as like a, you know, 18 or 19 year old, like Jay Billis, I'm sure right now would be like, What are you talking about? You have to let people go, right? But there was some benefit to like the paternalistic, you know what I'm saying? You have to stay a year for the kid, not for the school, just like for the kid. I actually have very similar conflicting feelings about like sports gambling, right? Which is like the sports gambling to me is, of course it should be legal, but I think it like makes sense to me that it should be legal and like, you shouldn't be able to restrict it to certain geographies. Like it should be available if you're old enough and all this stuff. And I think it is pretty tough to argue it doesn't have some negative impacts on the game. It doesn't have some negative impact on the fan experience. And I don't know what to do about it, but it is, it is not all positive that it like exists, you know what I'm saying? But like, I understand, you know, kind of principally why it should exist the way it does, but like, it was kind of a good system where like it only could, you'd have to go somewhere to go do it. You know, it was kind of limited. It was harder. There was friction. Like, there's like good— there's places where there's good reason to have friction, even if you can't defend it all the time. So I have very conflicted feelings about the transfer portal.

Do you have conflicted thoughts about NIL?

No. Um, I, I, I do think that was not a very—

that's not a very strong no.

Yeah, Shane, you know what it is? I think it's that, like, maybe a little conflict. What I really feel is I do think college athletes were giving way more than they were getting for a very long time. Like, I think that you guys both— and again, I don't know Alex's Utah career well enough other than, like, the amount of money that was generated off of teams that you guys led versus what you got in the form of your scholarship. That seems pretty uneven, you know, like that does not seem all that great. And so I do think that players should get paid, and so I'm supportive of that. I think that I don't feel as conflicted there. I definitely feel more conflicted on like the, you know, should you— should there be any friction in transferring? And also there is something about like showing up at school for 3 months and not being a student at all, and, you know, and just like it being minor league sports. Like, you know, I don't watch minor league anything else.

Yeah, I do agree. Like, for— and this is for a small subset of, I think, student athletes at the collegiate level that are really there as a minor league to go pro. I think for the vast majority of student athletes, it's still not, right? And again, of course, I agree with you. The transfer portal probably is the— I think the thing that has changed this dynamic the most, not that guys are getting or girls are getting paid a little bit, it's the fact that, right, like, yeah, the year-to-year the names change. It's hard to keep track of. I still just, it's actually, it's hard to say that like, hey, this student athlete going through a hard time, the best thing for them might be just to sit in that longer. Like, you know, like from an outside, that's really convenient to say from an outside. Cause like, hey, they would build some resiliency and toughness and callousness. I, or, you know, like, I don't know. Like, okay, let's—

but you know what it did though, Alex? And like, you took your college choice more seriously because you knew it was a little more permanent, right? And so like, there really isn't a downside to making people think harder about big life decisions. That's just me. You know, the more time and the more data points and the more consideration you give major life decisions usually is probably better than being flippant.

Well, also the other thing is, Alex, I find like you, we've all said this, but like truth serum is like, what would you tell your own kid? Right. And I think that, like, I don't know if I like think about, you know, what would we tell our own kids in terms of like, they're in a situation, it's hard. And they're like, I want to get out of it. I think once they're old enough, we all be like, listen, it's your decision. Right. And, you know, if you decide that's the right answer, cool. I'm going to support you, but you ought to think long and hard about whether this situation is uniquely different enough where you should leave it versus sticking it out. You know what I'm saying? It can't be the whole situation. Yeah, but at least you would tell them like, think about it some more, you know, before they just like bounced, right? And there are some—

I think you would leave from— yeah, I would think you would just try to take the emotion out of it and write, hey, let's be rational and logic and let's think about these things. Yeah, but to that point, for teenagers, of course, you know, leaving, leaving still might be the best thing, right?

Like 100%. Look, guys, I'm going through this right now with my own son. All right. He's a pretty good basketball player. He's gotten some college offers. And so he's trying to make that decision. And look, I've been through it. I've been through at the highest level. I've seen everything. You know, literally, aside from transferring because of a crappy situation, I've seen everything in this, in this game. And so my advice to him is the same my parents gave to me. My parents didn't go to college. They didn't play basketball. Football. They said, "Hey, you got to go somewhere where you can be yourself. You can be your best self." And, that's the data point that matters. Can you be your best self in this situation? And so, go back to first principle thinking. What's the data? What's true? What is true about this situation that I have to assess? Is it seriously being held down and not given opportunity or the players are just better than me or whatever it is? But if a place does not exist to allow you to be your best self, then you should move on. You should move on. But you have to think hard and assess that truthfully and not just off a couple feelings.

How do you feel about taking your iconic college experience, one school, right? Like everything that came with that, the pride for Duke, your decision-making process to go there, right? Your experience now forever, right, in the rafters. Of Cameron Indoor versus like what Zeke's experience may look like here given the current environment, both good and bad, right?

That's why I brought up the point, like maybe these young people think they are doing the right thing because everyone else is doing it, right? And so to stand up and say, no, no, no, I'm going to stick it out, man, because, you know, even those guys are bouncing. I'm just going to stick it out, right? It's rare. It's rare because of what everyone sees, and everyone sees the big NIL contracts and the transferring and the immediate gratification. And, you know, like, I want that. And like, that's not wrong because that's what everyone's doing. And so, but our kids just don't— it's harder for them to do things that are against the grain, right? And maybe very rare, especially in college sports.

Do you think, though, did you not have college teammates you think that again, for everything that Coach K and that environment were for your growth and the opportunities you got to become who you are, don't you think there's somebody there that was like, man, I'm not getting the opportunities, this environment isn't right for me, their career never panned out at Duke, and now all of a sudden there is the flexibility to potentially pivot quickly, right?

Given the sand running out of the hourglass, you know, look, I got crushed when I was in college. Because everyone thought I was just like, "No, you have to go to 4 years of college and graduate." And I was never like that. Every situation is different. Again, you have to go somewhere where you can be your best self and that could be not going to college at all. That could go to college for 1 year. That could transferring to 4 different schools. You know, whatever the opportunity that you can be your best self and optimize and perfect your potential, that's what you should do and it's different for everybody, right? So, my journey is very different from my son's, and I respect that. And I had a very unique journey that, like, I don't think anyone had in terms of arc. And so I respect that. And again, you have to be able to be in the best spot to be yourself.

Yeah. And I think that's really cool because, like, you don't just get to make that decision when you're 18, making this college. Now you get to iterate on it. Every year, right? Like literally and multi-times a year, right? Like you can— well, what's best for me, right? And like, and you can obviously hopefully take emotion out of it, you know, and make these decisions more often, right? Like you're more empowered. Yeah.

But I think that honestly, I think that The Economist did a study or like, you know, like a long, long, long time ago of like the top 10 keys to happiness. And you know what number 1 was? Limit options. Yeah. Constraints. It was like, because like always having every moment of like, well, what should I do? This should be this. It can be paralyzing. Right. Cause like, you know, you have everything in front of you. I definitely though, Alex, I think your point of like ignorance is bliss, huh?

Yeah.

But I think if you think, I think if you think I'm like, I like options, but I think if you think rationally and you can be rational and you can have the right duration, I do think it's good that you can like enthusiastically rehire your school every year. You know, I'm like, do I really want to be here? I think that it's just that you do need to be seeing the truth and not just like having people who tell you what you want to hear, you know, in your ear. One thing I will tell you, Shane, that I really do admire is that I hope that with whatever decisions our kids have a few years from now, you know, not necessarily athletically related, just in general, that I have the same kind of like disposition as you and Heidi are having with Zeke, which is like, hey, look, here's our experience, but like you got your own and we trust you to make this decision and here's the principles we use, but like, go do that. It would be very easy for you to like put your stuff on him. Here's the right answer. My experience was so good that like, you should do this. And instead, like, you know, you really, you guys really are in a, in a, in a great way, kind of like trying to give him tools and then be like, all right, man, like, what do you want to do? And I think that like, you could imagine like college is a big decision. You know, like he's got some awesome options. I saw on, you know, Instagram some of his options, like, you know, Zeke is getting great options that you could have strong opinions on. And I'm, I'm impressed that you guys are, you know, just kind of letting Zeke go.

I appreciate that. If you ask him, uh, you know, I don't know anything and I should just shut the hell up and get out of the way. So the answer is probably somewhere in the middle there, right?