How Jon Scheyer Is Building Duke for a New Era - [Glue Guys, Ep. 76]

Nobody was promised anything, which is different in this day and age. Not one player on our roster was guaranteed a starting spot. Playing time's not based on your NIL contract. It's not based on your mock draft ranking, your high school ranking. It's based on what is fact, and what is fact is what you do in practice.

Today.

Special guest. You know, in 2010, just a kid from Northbrook, Illinois cut down the nets in Indianapolis as a national champion and a captain at Duke. That young man finished his career with 2,077 points, number 10 all-time leading scorer at Duke. But here's the number that never makes the banner. He's the only player in Duke history— we've had some good ones— 2,000 points, 500 rebounds, 400 assists, 250 blocks. 53s and 200 steals. So this man was not just a scorer. It's a man who did it all. He is a true blue guy. 12 years later, he took the most difficult chair to replace in college basketball, the one that Mike Krzyzewski sat in for 42 years. And since then, he's only won 124 games against 25 losses, 3 ACC tournament titles, a Final Four, and National Coach of the Year. He's actually winning at a clip that is exceeding Coach K at this point. And he has not cut down his last net. And that's the most exciting thing. He tells his players that he coaches now that he wants them to be confident and uncomfortable. And today we found out what that costs, how you build and find a glue guy when the portal pays for points, and what kept— what he kept from the man he learned from. So my friend, our Our coach, John Shire. Welcome to Glue Guys.

Hold on, I got one more, Shane. I cannot believe you left out the thing that I find to be the coolest intro of our man, Mr. Shire, coach, which is as a Chicagoan, the fact that your nickname in high school was White Mike. Okay. I think that that is an important part of the intro that I feel like we cannot leave out. We got to go deep on that as a Chicagoan to Duke guy. So, White Mike, that's— that I feel like is pretty high praise.

Well, thank you, guys. It's an honor to be on with all of you guys and so much respect. Shane, obviously, for you, what you've done at Duke, what you've meant to all of us that have followed in your footsteps. Alex, who you are as a player and everything you've done. And, Ravi, the way you've led in a world that I'm not as good at. Your world is incredible, all the things you've done. But for me to just join you guys for a little bit is great. All those stats you brought up, like the assists, rebounds, points, I just— we had to come up with some stats that sounded good. I'm still not sure what any of that means, but Shane, I'll take it, man.

See, the good news is we played, you know, you were just transitioning into the digital age.

All right.

So I think you still find some games on VHS, which is, you know, which is my claim to fame as well. So we can't go back. We can't, you know, affirm all those assists. But You're one of the greatest players in Duke basketball history, Coach. And, you know, people know you for your coaching bona fides now, but, you know, you were a hell of a player. And so that's like the most important thing I want Blue Guy Nation to know. Shire was a baller, White Mike out of Chicago. But you've done just an amazing job and we appreciate you taking the time today. I'm surprised you gave us time. You know, it seems like a college coach's job literally is 24/7 these days. First of all, how do you find the energy to keep up with these young guys and go at the pace that you go at?

Well, I just told you guys right when I got on, I felt like I must be the only Glue Guy or the only guy to come on Glue Guys that's drenched in sweat. I lost my mind in a workout and I ran on here. And, I think it's more than ever you guys know it's a 24/7 job. And these guys need different coaching than, you know, probably the way, Alex, you were coached or Shane, the way you were coached. And to me, there's nothing wrong with that, but it does require— there's more individual meetings. There's more talking about the intention of why you're doing something as opposed to just doing it. And then we're lucky to recruit the best caliber, not just talent, but also the character and the person. Which I think allows you to coach them about the things that really matter, which has been what Duke, I think, is all about.

John, on the note of you being drenched in sweat, right? Like, again, really leads in perfectly. Like, doing some research again, I obviously know you from afar through Shane and Ravi and like obviously a huge fan, watched you play. And again, it's— you're so unique, obviously, to have this amazing playing career and then obviously you've transitioned to have the most wins in your first 4 years of coaching at Division I level is absurd, right? Given the role you took over. But again, doing a little research, I've kind of come to find out that you're like psychotically competitive, like Shane, right? And I watch you though on the sidelines and you seem so put together. You seem so calm. You seem like given no matter what's going on, end of game scenario, you just seem like you got it. Those 2 things don't seem to coincide for me, right? Like, you know, the fact that you can have this insane competitiveness when you played, And then transition to a coach where you probably— there's, I'm assuming emotionally, you want to like jump out of your skin in some of these moments, but you just seem to hold it together so much. Was that easy? Like, you know, like, is it something you had to work at?

Yeah.

You know, I think, I think that's, that's been an interesting dynamic I've had to work through because I'm coaching players who are going through something for the first time. And so the, Con Knipple told me when he left Duke, he has an amazing rookie year, rookie of the— he's really him and Cooper, they have this battle for Rookie of the Year. And he felt like he could play a little bit freer. He had the monkey off his back playing at Duke. It's just a different animal when you're going from high school to college with the stakes that we play with every single game. And if I'm over there on the sideline overreacting to every call or overreacting to Anything that doesn't go our way, but yet I'm expecting them to get to the next play. I think poise is important to show them. And, you know, don't get it twisted. There's moments in huddles, there's moments on the floor, there's moments at halftime in the locker room. I mean, these guys will tell you that it's not all— they won't describe me exactly the way that you just did. But I think it's important when, you know, like, we're in the midst of it where they feel like they got my poise and they have my confidence. And, but so that's something for me, I take a lot of pride in.

You do a hell of a job with it.

Thank you.

One of the things that, you know, we talked about actually a few episodes ago was like college sports for a lot of teams are different to watch now, you know, because like the players, they don't stay as long and they're not— they don't seem as together. And Alex was kind of pushing Shane and I on it and we were both like, Duke's different. It feels like the team is together. Even if the guys don't stay as long, it feels like they're together. You know, you see Shane in the Brotherhood t-shirt. And I actually think that that's not just us being like, you know, homers. I think it's actually true. I think that somehow the team is together quickly. What do you do to get them to trust each other more quickly? You don't have years with every one of them. Like, what are some of the things you actually do to make that happen?

One, I think no matter what you do, you have to bring in the right people. And we spend a ton of time trying to figure out who the right people are, you know, in addition to the player. That's number one. Number two, I think as quickly as possible when you can address the actual things that matter, right? Not everybody's going to get what they want right away. That's not possible. That's just the reality. Number two, nobody was promised anything, which is different in this day and age. Not one player on our roster was guaranteed a starting spot, minutes. We talk about vision. We talk about what the outlook looks like. So they all understand that when you go into the locker room, it's fair. You're not being— you're not— playing time is not based on your NIL contract. It's not based on your mock draft ranking, your high school ranking. It's based on what is fact. And what is fact is what you do in practice. How do you impact winning? We call it the 98%, all the times you don't have the ball in your hands during the course of a game. What are you doing? High IQ basketball. And then, or you focus on the narratives, right? The narratives are the mock drafts, the rankings, all the other things that come with it. So, for us, putting it out in the open, coaching it in real time, creating an environment where they have, they can hold each other accountable, they need each other. And I think that I learned after my second year, I thought we had a really fun summer, really nice summer, and you don't bond by doing really fun, really nice things all the time. You bond by doing hard things together. And so, this summer, I think our guys would tell you it's been as difficult as any time they've had playing basketball, but it's been fun because they feel the challenge and they've seen how they've really connected and come together because of it.

We talk about empathy for young people on this show a lot. And, the young people today have to deal with so many more things than we had to, not only as athletes but as but as people. How do you keep your guys grounded on the floor and worried about what is at hand today? You know, I think about my time in the Stone Age playing with Carlos Boozer. You know, you coach his 2 sons, and Coach K used to say, hey, Carlos, unpack your bags, son. Unpack your bags. I know the NBA is looming and it's out there, but we need you right here and now. So unpack your bags, stay a while. You might even enjoy it. So, how do you get your kid, your young guys who have obviously great aspirations to unpack their bags and just live for this day?

Shane, I think that's the biggest challenge we have. And, there's so much, I think especially for us, football is probably the same way I would assume, Alex, in terms of every game's a big deal whether you win or lose it. So, when you lose, it feels like If you go on social media, you probably— it would appear I'm the worst coach in the world. Our players are the worst players. You win, oh my God, can't believe what they're doing. You're not as good as people say you are when things are high and you're not as bad as people say you are when things aren't going as well. Shane, I used to, my first year, I think I talked a lot about staying off it, like not listening to it. It's a pretty dumb thing to say.

Yeah.

They're going to read it. It's impossible to avoid it, right? So I think it's just being very real about the fact, here are the things that are going to come up. Here's what you're going to hear. Is that really true? Like, do you really believe that? And then just trying to show them stories and paint pictures of how— 2 things. One, it's not in your best interest to get ahead of yourself. And then 2, you're going to lose out and miss out on the best time of your life. And that's playing college basketball. And so, I try to remind them of that too. We talk about the balance of intensity and joy. If you have all intensity or if you have— there has to be some level of balance to bring out your best. And, that's something we really try to get across to our guys.

Again, Shane gave a bunch of your playing stats. I'm blown away. I'm blown away by the coaching stats. Again, through 4 years, it's 124 wins. I think you have 3 ACC titles, Elite Eight, Final Four. consecutive Players of the Year, right? It is the most wins in Division I basketball history through the first 4 years for a head coach, right? Like, and oh yeah, you took over for this guy named Coach K, right? Like, this is, this is like replacing Vince Lombardi, right? Or Don Shula in the football world. And, and I think there's this perception that you don't ever want to be the guy after the guy, right? And if we could go back and be honest, like, I would just love, obviously, again, your history at Duke though. I mean, but did you say that was all BS, right? And that, that was nonsense and I got this? Or was there a part of you that was like, hey, man, this is daunting, right? To come fill these shoes. I'm just so interested when that happened, right? Obviously, again, you've had such enormous success since then, but to go back 4 years ago, right? From a mindset standpoint of when you took over for that.

Yeah. You know what? I think that I'm a history guy. I've always loved history. I was a history major at Duke. And, as I knew that this was an opportunity and going through the process, I started looking up successions, any examples I could find in the world of business, sport. And, the more that I looked it up, the more daunting I felt it was. There's not many examples you can look to where like, man, this went really well.

Yeah.

Right?

2 things I learned in that stuck out to me. One, which blew up in my face because the world that we're in, but one, it's important not to change too much too quickly. I think that's really important that my goal was regardless of winning or losing, when you watch Duke basketball play, I think there's a feeling that's associated with that, right? The grittiness, the unselfishness, I want that to remain. And then, the connection between CEO and former CEO.

Yeah.

And how that transition is, how you're aligned to that. And both those things, I felt we were in a great place until NIL happened, transfer portal happened. And man, we got to change. We have to change. So, that part didn't go as well necessarily, but I think it's real, the following the guy or being the guy that follows the guy. But at the same time, I've always had a strange belief in myself. I had a belief in knowing this day and age in college sports, being the right guy at that specific moment. Although there's a lot of people that could do really good things, you're at an amazing university. The support from our former players— not saying this because he's on the podcast, but Shane's done so much behind the scenes, him and other guys. Like, you're set up for success. And I just felt like if we get established right away, We're going to continue to recruit really highly talented players that have great character. And we can show that winning is a recipe. That's not— I think it's always easier if you can just stay, you know, just show that you're here as opposed to having to work your way back. Also, there's probably not time to work your way back in this day and age either. But that's something I think now the challenge for me, even though I think those numbers you shared are great, Alex, and Then why am I feeling so shitty in the offseason? Why am I feeling so motivated to keep going, right? I think that's the beauty and the curse of what it is to coach at Duke. And, that's what comes with it.

The thing that's so cool is that you have these things in tension like the intensity and the joy. Think about the humility of like, man, this hasn't gone well for a lot, but the confidence of like, I can do it. There's a lot of stuff like the beauty and the curse of Duke.

It's cool.

There's a lot of things that are held in tension. John, one of the things I notice that is kind of cool is you have your family around a lot. Like, one of the coolest things about watching you to me is like your kids are around the program, your wife is there, your parents are at the games. Like, you have created a real, in my judgment from the outside, like a real environment where it's integrated. You know, why did you decide to do that? You know, and what impact has it had on you as a leader that they're around?

Well, my dad worked a ton. He worked at a picture frame company and I would never see him in the morning. He'd be out the door first thing and he'd come back real late in the evening, sometimes 6:00, 6:30, whatever it was. And, he'd walk in the door and I'd ask him to go play basketball, go rebound for me. I'd not play most of the time. Most of the time, it was rebounding for me to shoot is what I wanted to do, go play catch, whatever it was. And, those moments is really why I'm probably in the position I am today. My mom sacrificing, taking the time. And so, for me as a father, I think that's something you always feel some level of guilt if you're doing what you love from a work capacity. You feel like, man, I'm missing out on whatever could be happening with my kids. And then, when you're with your family, you're battling, well, what's going on with our guys? What could I be doing? There's always something you can do. And so, for me, the best way for the best of both worlds is for them to feel really a part of it. I don't want them to be defined by it. I want them to have their own passions. They don't have to play basketball. They can do whatever they want. But, that's something I think that for me, it's just great for our players to see I got my family around. And, my wife is— we're close here to having our 4th child.

Keep going. Starting five.

No, keep going.

Starting five.

Gotta keep going.

We need more stars.

I'm the starting point guard.

We need more stars. Keep going.

And the entire team, I had them do actually the staff. I made them do a little guessing, like what day is what day is the baby going to come? So we got a whole big. They're they're on the edge of their seats trying to figure that out, but just trying to make it all. You know, a true family.

I would just tell you that's inspirational to me. I think that all of us can relate to the work a lot, wanna be a great dad, and the idea of having a way to have 'em be in it is, that's something that I think we all try to do and it's cool to watch.

Thank you.

One of our favorite things to talk about is, you know, being a sports dad. And, you know, have you faced the shakeoff yet? You know, where, you know, you're so used to everyone looking to you for the answer and, you know, you think hard and you're very thoughtful at everything you say. You know, have you come— have you gotten the cold shoulder where you say something to one of your young players and they go, nah, Dad, nah, nah, nah, nah?

You know, it's funny, I was playing, my son's starting to love baseball a little bit and we play in the driveway. I'll just pitch to him and he's starting to hit and I made the mistake of trying to just position his hands a little bit. He's like, no, no, no, Dad, this is how PCA does it. PCA does it this way. So I just experienced that last week, actually. Yeah. I assume that only gets worse, right, guys? That doesn't get better as time goes on.

Yes.

Yes. Yes. And at some point, there'll be some— we talk about this all the time, that the things that you say that you think you're getting shook off, about and being ignored, you know, sometime when they're a teenager, a late teenager, they'll say something that you said exactly. And you're like, they were listening. And it's the greatest feeling of all time. So that, you know, don't be discouraged. You know, keep, keep, keep the good fight going.

No, but it gets better, John. I'm telling you, it's so good right now, but it only gets better. The kid stuff. I mean, that's why we said you got to keep going. Shane saying it with only 2, you know, he has the least credibility on this topic. Me and Alex at least have 3. But you're setting the standard with 4.

Exactly.

Look, it's not too late for you guys to join and step up and get your own starting 5. I'm just saying.

I'm telling you, wait till our wives listen to this episode and they're like, what are you guys talking about?

The shop is closed, coach. The shop is closed.

Okay. I have a question. I have a question. So you talked about Duke, nothing is promised, right? When you go recruit somebody, nothing's promised. These guys are guys who other people are going to promise things to them. So take us into the living room. You're talking to somebody and you're making a different pitch than somebody else is making. Somebody else, I presume, is making the look, You're going to be— our offense is built around you. You're going to start every game. And you're kind of like, nothing's promised. We'll see how you do. You know, when it works, what is the personality of the type where it works? And when it doesn't work, you know, what is the thing that person's feeling, you know, on the other side? Like, I'm trying to envision that conversation.

I think that's a huge thing, Ravi. And the guys that are— I think there's 2 things that our top guys that have come through really have in common. One, I think there's a strong support system from their family and even beyond, whether it be an agent, whether it be a trainer, a close friend. There's a strong support system where they've held their son accountable to the things that matter most, right? Like how you show up every day, how you compete, how you want to be coached. Usually, the guys that Have gone to multiple schools. Not to say we've taken guys that haven't gone to multiple schools because we have, but usually it's the guys that are at 1 or 2 places. They've had the same core group for a period of time. And the second thing, it kind of goes opposite what you would think I would say, but it's they also have independence. Like the kid, the athlete, the kid, the person, their parents don't stymie them from being put in a position of making mistakes and having failure. And ultimately, I don't care who you are, Zion Williamson, Cooper Flagg, Cam Boozer, you name it, you're going to go through some tough times, you know, in your moments at Duke. And so, we look for those 2 things. And then, I think ultimately, end of the day, it's about where you want to end up. And we just try to paint a picture of you can learn this now or you can learn this— In the future when maybe it's too late at that time. And so, now, we also don't just say like, no matter what happens, like, we paint a picture of how this is going to— their dreams is going to become a reality also. So, we go through, Shane, you would love, you know, the presentation from analytics standpoint of where they have to improve their shot selection, their decision-making, right? We talk about the physicality or their body and how they have to grow. We try to paint a real picture of how we're going to help them, but end of the day, they have to have those things to learn and to grow. And that's something we look for.

Speaking of the analytics of college basketball, and I applaud you, you've always been an early adopter, a strong adopter. The young players today are incentivized by the box score metrics, right? And we see point per game equals And, you know, portal dollars. And so how do you find and cultivate the glue guys that might be hiding in plain sight on other rosters when you're accepting a transfer, when it might not be as clear because the box score stats aren't as strong? You know, a guy like Seon James, you know, he was a strong scorer, but like he was the straw that stirred our drink on that team. And he was an amazing glue guy.

Exactly.

For us? Like, how do you find the Seon Jameses of the world out there?

That's been a lot of fun to try to figure out, Shane. And, you know, one, there is an analytical component where just by the profiles we have, certain guys just— it's not a list of 1,000 guys, right? We have a smaller list just from an analytical perspective. And then I think who they are and what they're looking to do is a big thing. You know, Seon was We got him at a great time where he was very secure in who he was. You know, he understood that playing the role for us literally was identical to the role he played for the Hornets. And that was a great thing. Also, when we studied his shooting, you know, we really felt like his shooting, the shots he would get with us were different than the shots he got at Tulane where he was at, just because he was the focal point. We knew obviously Cooper and some of the guys we would have. And so, you know, Sian shoots almost 40% from 3, you know, in his year with us. And so that was a big deal. You know, Malik Brown, just his metrics defensively were off the charts. Deflections, steals, rebounds came a little bit later, but the deflections and steals. Same thing this year. We've gotten a couple great glue guys. Drew Czarnowski, big guy from Belmont. Really loved his ability to be a versatile defender. That was another thing in common with Sian and Malik. You knew you could put them on anybody on the defensive end, and they knew how to play without the ball on offense. And so where some stats, the points per game, all that good stuff that people care about, it doesn't necessarily translate for what we need because we feel like we will have some key guys that can create offense for us. I have to tell you guys one cool thing. I was going to wait to tell Shane, but We started to create an internal database for what we're doing. Shane knows this, Ravi, you know this. And, we were going through trying to figure out what to name it. And so, Alex, we had just a staff little competition of just let's put the best names in the hat and we're going to vote and that's what it's going to be. And, not going to name any names yet, but all of a sudden, somebody suggested Shane. And, we voted. And Shane won. So the internal database that we've been using the last couple months is Duke Shane. How cool is that?

It's perfect.

I'm honored. It is perfect, right?

Well, you got to see it first. I'm sure you'll be critical of something on it.

He told me that a few months ago, and I've been holding that. He's like, don't tell him. And I'm like, no, man, that's your news. But that's the coolest thing.

I mean, I'm very happy.

Could not be more fitting.

Yeah, thank you, Alex. I get more crap from Alex on the show about being, you know, the first nerd of basketball. But I wear this for the badge of honor. So thank you. Thank you.

So you'll have to— we'll have to show you at some time here. But that is an actual thing.

This question's, Coach, for you and Shane too, a little bit, right? And this kind of— I think Shane goes to your last question, right? Like Shane literally is the definition of a glue guy. Right? You've talked about your former teammate when you were playing, right? Lance Thomas. Is that correct? Like, again, amazing Blue guy. Duke has had a lot of these, right? You just named several current as well. Do you think the sales pitch, right? Like, I love this idea you just said. I'd never heard it before. This idea of like the 98% of the time, like when you don't have the ball, what are you doing to win? This idea of not promising playing time, right? Like being a part of this vision. Do you think it self-selects for players that fit that? Or is it more of you actively looking for these types of guys? Or maybe both, right? In the sense of these guys that come in that impact winning in so many ways, they can't all be the players of the year, right? And Duke has those too. But again, how do you find these guys, the value you put on them? And again, and you talk about even celebrating them, it sounds like, right?

Yes.

Celebrating that culture of the 98%. So, I know a lot there and I guess kind of for both of you, but Coach, how do you view that?

Yeah, Shane, I don't know what you think, but Alex, I think the right guys really get it. And so when you're painting, you're not fighting, you know, a role. You're not fighting that. I remember Sian, you know, we did some unique things the year he was here because of who he was, you know, and it was refreshing. I'm coaching him, you know, Sian, I need you to go in the dunker this play. Or, Sean, I need you to be a screener. Okay. Okay. Well, like, and just, I think end of the day, Sean understood it was in his best interest too. Like, he's, he's a glue guy and he's a team guy, but it's ultimately in his best interest. And if you really just are objective and look at the NBA and what they value and how to make a living for yourself, you will, you will value these things. And so I think it's few and far between the ones that really do and that have the talent to do it. But it's something I think we have a track record now of having success with those guys that if you're smart, I think you're going to want to come here and play that role. But I don't know, Shane, what your perspective is with that.

I just wanted to play, you know, that's my, that's my answer. Like the guys who figure that out, they figure out that like, oh, no one else wants to do this. I'll do it. No big deal. There's no different in football when you're a great blocking receiver or you're a, you know, you're pass pro and as a running back, you know, that's not a thankless job. You don't say, oh, I'm going to be the best pass protector running back, you know, at At Alabama. No, like I want to play. And so if no one else can do it, I'm going to do it. And so that like my freshman year, look, I'm playing just in practice every day against Elton Brand, McDonald's All-American, Taimon Domzalski, McDonald's All-American, Rashawn McLeod, All-Big East, Chris Burgess, you know, first team All-American, right? Like our practices were way more difficult than our games my freshman year. So when Coach K says, hey, you got Brendan Haywood and who outweighs me by 50 pounds and I'm giving up 4 inches. Yeah, no problem. I got it. I got it. And so like, you just got to do what you have to do to get on the floor and you just figure it out. And so as much as I want to say I was altruistic and I'm going to do it for the team, but like, no, I just wanted to play.

But I do think that, that I was going to say the evidence though of Sian going to the pros helps. Don't you think? Like the fact that it works, you know, like I feel like, you know, John, you earn trust from people when it's sort of like, look, this is what's valued and this is going to go and work for you. when you have evidence that supports that later. Like, you know, I don't know what Khan averaged in college, right? But he probably averaged a lot more, you know, his first year. So the idea of like, even if you don't average it here, you can still be, you know, Rookie of the Year candidate. Like, I feel like the more you stack up that evidence, the more it helps and you have it in multiple dimensions, I think.

Not just that, we've had back-to-back years. We've had a guy drafted that averaged single-digit points at Duke.

Yeah.

Malik Brown gets drafted this year. If you look at just again, Shane, The box score numbers that you mentioned, all right, it's six and four, right? He gets drafted by the Spurs. Sean the year before gets drafted by the Hornets, and so it's not just you know. And look, we've had great players out of Glue Guys. I mean, Shane Shane was National Player of the Year. Concanipal was the fourth pick in the draft, right? Like they're doing they're doing other things too. Slumming it, slumming it.

You know, the Glue Guys, we like to play it up a little bit.

You know, it's I told you Shane. It's about narrative. That's one of the big things that we try to. do talk about on this thing on the show though is like being a glue guy doesn't mean that you're not the best or one of the best players on the team. It just means that you put the team first, right? Like that's what it means. Coach, it was publicly reported that you were chased by the NBA this summer. Okay. And so, well, you're still here and we got a Duke basketball logo behind you when you're talking to us. So we'd love to talk about that and how you thought about that.

Well, if anybody that knows me, I wouldn't be able to live with myself not seeing this thing through. I mean, that's just the bottom line. And, you know, I'm at a one-of-one place where not often you get your dream job when you're 33. And that's what happened to me. And, you know, I feel like we've— you know, I'm really proud of the start we've gotten off to and the continuation of What has been what has been built here, but I think we got so much left to do. You know, I just think we have so much left to accomplish. And for me, again, yes, we talked about my family earlier. You know, this is where my family is. This is home for me. I've been in I've been in Durham longer than I have. Yeah, I grew up in Chicago.

You know, a lot of Bullock's barbecue there.

Yeah, no exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, it's so, for me, like, I just, in some ways, it made me even stronger in terms of my dedication and what we have to do here, right? Because I think when you're presented with something different, it makes you be critical of the position or the place you're at. Although, I don't feel like there's a lot to be critical about here. I do think it makes you want to double down on what you have to get right. And so, for me, it's reenergized me. refocus me. And also, not many times are you— do you have to think about or are you challenged to think about, well, what's your player development philosophy? Like, how do you build a culture? And staying on your toes, staying fresh, staying agile, I think that's really important and gave me a chance to just look in the mirror and think about how I can be better for our guys as well.

I think one of the things that I'll tell you I loved about that when we talked about it and now is I have a friend who has this quote. He said, look, you get to a point where you realize you're not auditioning for your life anymore. You're living it. Like, this is it, right? So it's not about trying to do something that someone else is going to think is cool. It's not about building your resume. It's about actually doing what you want to do. And I think the idea of like what you said is something that's— it's so cool. It's like, look, I like it here. I want to do this. My family's here. This is my dream job. And, you know, whatever someone else wants is fine, but this is what I want to do. And, I think that knowing your own self and what you care about and not worrying about being memetic, I think that's one of the coolest things that I've seen from you.

Well, the other thing, Ravi, I mean, I was in junior high writing fake college rosters and fake college schedules. Shane's a nerd in his way, I'm a nerd in my way. It's just, again, not to say that the NBA You know, the NBA is obviously the highest level of whatever you can do. But in my own world, I know this is where I'm supposed to be right now doing what I'm doing with our guys.

I love it.

How do you know what to rethink and how do you know what to keep?

Right?

We live in such a bottom-line business. Win, lose. You lose, like you said, change everything. You win, oh, we got everything figured out. So, like, how do you separate success, from luck, from the need to evolve to the need to retain what we have? You're a very thoughtful coach, thoughtful person. We have a lot of deep conversations. How do you go about separating those things?

Fascinating for me, Shane, reflecting on the last 2 years. Just take the last 2 years we've had. Alright, we're 70-7. There's 77 games. We've been within The 7 losses we've had has been a 1-possession game with under a minute to go. So, you know, if 2 years ago you said, all right, John, you're going to have 77 games and you're going to have a chance to win all of them, right? You're taking that every day of the week. Now, on the flip side, as a coach and as a competitor, you're not as focused on the 70, you're focused more on the 7, right? And specifically the 3 this past year that we had, right? And that's what keeps you up at night. That's what you wrestle with. And Specifically in those 3, you know, we had control of all 3 of those games. And so, I think it's easy to think about, man, how do you maintain a lead or how do you finish off a game? When I had to remind myself this offseason, hold on, hold on, get the lead first. Like, you still— like, it's not like that's easy to do, right? And so, I think for me, Shane, I had to work very hard to— Acknowledge the things that have been really good for us and how we don't take those things for granted. Because I think it was too easy for me to focus on what we can clean up or what we can do. You have to acknowledge that luck is a part of it and that this comes down to an injury, a shot, or a play. But that can't be the reason. I'm not going to ever just say, well, it was luck. That's not ever what you can do as a coach, as a competitor. I think you're always looking for what you can control the most of. And so, this offseason for me, my message to our team, the thing is we've talked as a staff, is all about what we can possibly control the most. That's the blueprint that's worked for us to put us in those positions. And then really, it's about finding a possession or 2. You know this from an analytical standpoint. All right, UConn. Well, we gave them 16 points off turnovers. So, you can say don't turn the ball over, but you can also talk about how you actually do that. You can talk about in the Final Four the year before, Houston rebounded almost half their misses. Or you can— it would be very easy to talk about a play here, play there. Well, if we just— well, no, no. That's the theme for me is how we address those areas in addition to We're the number 1 defense in the country. All right, we got to build on that foundation. You know, offensively, we really play, you know, unselfish connected basketball. How do we take that to the next level? So, for me, it's something I've had to really wrestle with, spend a lot of time and energy giving yourself a little grace, but then being pissed at yourself and being competitive, being a competitor and getting back to work of what actually you can control.

I sent you a note after the UConn game. I'm sure you got an outpouring of notes from players and guys in your past. And, you know, it reminded me so much of my journey back in the Stone Age when we lost to UConn in 1999, and it just felt like the world was ending. But look, you've cut down the nest before, you know, 2010. And so you know what it takes. And my message to you was, For me, 2001 would not have been as sweet if we'd won in '99, right? Or if I didn't go through that heartbreak of going all the way and losing to a really good UConn team that year. And when I tell people that, people are like, no, no, no, you're crazy. I'm crazy. And so I believe in my heart of hearts, I've appreciated my entire career because of what I went through. So my question is like, What is that first step? We've all had heartbreaking losses. What do you do first after a heartbreaking loss?

Get up off the fucking mat. Just get up off the mat. And, I think the thing, '99, Shane, I don't know if you'd say the same thing, I think the thing in that particular game, it flashes In such an instance, you think you're going to a Final Four and then your season's over. Like, that's what happens in a span of 4 seconds. And so, I think that's what's different. That was what was different about that game versus just winning or losing. You're going to feel horrible winning or losing no matter what. And, you know, in the world of college basketball now, the next month I had to spend putting together our roster.

Yeah.

So, I didn't really get a chance to feel it. I didn't really get a chance to think about it. Obviously, I'm thinking about— I mean, you're thinking about all kinds of things, but you're focused on the roster. And so, I made sure once our roster was in place, I just went and got away for a couple weeks. And, in my mind, I felt that was important to feel. I think that was important to game plan and then also to make decisions in terms of what's fact in my mind versus what's a narrative. I think those are 2 very different things, right? And I think it's very important that you don't get caught up in narratives. I think you get focused on what you can actually control. And I'm always going to take responsibility and what I can do better because there's always things I can do better. So, for me, I came back from that trip when I got away and again, it was 8 days, 9 days, whatever it was. And I felt like I had a— you had a game plan. You know, not just, there's a real game plan there of how we're going to execute and how we're going to do some things better and how you don't take for granted how you got there in the first place, which I think is key.

On that note, John, you talked about like, Ravi asked you again, I think, the kind of, how do you develop speed to trust with so many transfer portal guys coming in, right? Like some one-and-dones. It's just the roster turnover year to year has obviously increased exponentially. But I also feel like as a coach, like not only trying to develop speed to trust, it's like I got to figure out what we're actually even going to look like, right? Like you can no longer forecast, right? It's like, hey, well, Shane's coming back for a senior year. I can really forecast his trajectory and like what his role is going to be. Like you got, right? There's so many new faces and guys coming in and it's, you talked about how active this summer was. So some of that intentional in the fact that like, yeah, we got to get to know each other and get close, but we also just got to figure out like roles and ability and like, what's our offense going to look like, like roles on defense. I mean, you have to speed all that up as well, I'm assuming.

100%. And, you know, for me, not only the players, you know, Evan Bradz, who's a great coach for me, got a head coaching job at Belmont. So I had a coaching spot to fill. So, you know, staff, you know, you don't want to take staff chemistry, you know, for granted. And you're, you know, working through that and going through that process. And then really, I try to use the summers Just really to learn. You know, we don't install a ton in the summers. I think everybody has their own way of doing it. I try to really give our guys an opportunity to show what they can do. And in trying to show what they can do, sometimes they show us what they can't do. And so by the time it comes to the fall, right now we're in a mode of defining roles. You know, we're in the mode of trying to figure out how to play complementary basketball. And I think that experience over the summer— Just to get a chance to know what it looks like, because you really don't know, to your point, I think is really important. And you're not trying to fit your players into a system that isn't right for them. So I think that's an important time.

If Shane were like, if you had 22-year-old Shane, like one more season in college, what is he getting on the NIL market right now? Like, I just want, I just want to get a feel.

I don't want to hear this.

I mean, I just listen. I can't use a current player. I just kind of want to get a. I'm trying to get a sense of the NIL market right now.

Shane, who's who's your agent in college? That's a big guy. That's who you is. Is it me?

No.

For the record, my NIL was an extra meatball.

My meatball sub.

Yeah, exactly.

The free burger.

That was my NIL.

Ish, coach.

Ish. We just ballparkish.

Yeah. I mean, knowing Shane, he's not. You know, coming back for I mean several million. He's not coming back for anything less than that.

Like yeah, there's no way. The difference, Alex, you know, I'm well spoken. I'm good looking. I would have got like you know Gatorade too. You know, Gatorade and Nike.

Totally.

And don't forget humble. Don't forget very humble. Like you know, like it's not it's not just you know rev share.

It's not you know. Yeah, I would have had a little bit more. You know, maybe not Cooper Cooper flag level, but I would I would have had my deals. You know.

Okay. Now Alex Alex asking. I mean. Crazy that the football guy's asking about the money, you know, rather than I'm just very curious over here. I'm trying to get to resilience. You're out here being like, how much was Shane get paid?

You know, I mean, for the record, John, you know, Alex's nickname as a rookie was Dollar Bill.

Dollar Bill.

So, okay, big bucks.

So it's rich that the Dollar Bill is asking about money.

Yeah, no, no. As a rookie professional, I'm curious about the college level. We just had this big talk about NIL and I was just curious, just curious.

Well, you don't appreciate the romance anymore of college. Like Shane and I do because we're more history buffs. Okay, Jon, I have a question back. Get up off the fucking mat, right? That to me, if I name the episode, that's it, right? But you go back, did you always know you were going to be a coach? The reason I ask is you had to get up off the mat from the eye injury. I got to believe you thought you were going to be playing for longer, right? And so, take us back to that. What did that feel like? All of a sudden, the playing career ends earlier than you think. How long did it take to get up off the mat from that?

Well, I mean, I had a dream. I want to do 3 things as a player. I remember being a freshman in high school and telling one of my coaches, I want to be a McDonald's All-American, which kind of sounded a little crazy at the time for me. I want to win a national championship and I want to make the NBA. And so, the third thing didn't quite happen for me, but I got the first 2. And, I thought I was going to be playing. I mean, As a kid, sometimes how you think. I mean, I was growing up in Chicago in the '90s. I'm in my driveway shooting fadeaways thinking I'm going to be Michael Jordan one day at that time. That's what you think as a kid. You're dreaming to be the best player possible. And, I thought I knew I always wanted to coach. I thought I'd be coaching at starting my career at 35 in coaching and after playing 13 years in the NBA and doing all those things. And, the eye injury was really difficult. I don't necessarily believe in everything happens for a reason, but I do believe that if you make the most out of the cards you're dealt or what happens, you can do things you wouldn't have done otherwise. And so, all right, all of a sudden, I'm in Spain and playing for Pedro Martínez, who's one of the best coaches in Europe, and learning a different style of basketball.

Yeah.

I'm playing in Maccabi Tel Aviv. I'm going to McAllen, Texas, playing for Chris Finch and trying to figure out how to survive in the G League. Those things really helped define who I am in addition to my time at Duke. And so, I think it gave me real perspective. And, all of a sudden, I'm 25 years old, I'm back coaching for Coach K. It's a pretty special thing in its own right. But yeah, you had to keep going. Figure it out.

Dude, it's awesome. I think that just like, you know, few people get a second act so early. You know what I'm saying? Like the idea you said you got it at 33, you got your dream job. That's because you've been working at it for a long-ass time prior to 33, right? And it's cool. I think a lot of the resilience of just sort of like, look, shit is gonna happen. You don't control that, but all you control is how you respond to it. We talk about that all the time.

Yeah. And at the time, I didn't immediately say I wanted to coach. I immediately said, well, I'm gonna play in the NBA with one Good eye. That was where my mind was at. And, it just wasn't in the cards. And, I was proud of the fact I went to training camp with the Clippers right after and it was Blake Griffin's rookie year and I'm playing with— I'm this skinny guy with goggles. I can only imagine what my teammates were thinking. Blake Griffin's probably looking at me like, who the hell is this guy? But, just always Compete. And, but, you know, I think the reality check when you— I remember having a meeting with Vinny Del Negro and, you know, you get released. You know, that was a different feeling coming off, you know, 6 months ago winning a national championship. I was the leading scorer on our national championship team. Like, how the heck did we get here? And, I think that just— it hardens you. And, I think in those moments, you can make excuses and you can say— They're wrong. You can say whatever you want. At the end of the day, nobody cares. And I think for me, the decision to go play in the G League was my way of, you know, getting off the mat. And that really helped define where I ended up being today.

How do you think about that as a father? Right. We talk about that control, you know, controlled adversity, you know, which is some of the biggest challenges we have as fathers. How do you think about giving your own kids enough tough things they have to figure out, obviously, in a safe way.

Yeah, I think that's a huge thing, Shane. And, I've tried to— I mentioned earlier, I mean it, they can do whatever they want. I do want them to be a part of a team somehow. I just think the lessons of being coached, being a good teammate, losing, winning, all those things are important to have to just learn for life. And so, I've tried to really encourage them to do different things and figure out what all that means because I think it's what defines you as a person. You guys probably have better advice because you guys are further ahead than I am with my ages. My oldest are just starting to get into it. But, what would you guys say you do for the controlled adversity?

Oh, it's so hard. It's so hard to watch your kids struggle. Right.

Yeah.

Like, and I think obviously every parent knows it. And, and again, you're so— a lot of times, like, you don't have as much control or input, right? Like, as when something's happening to you, you know, and you do have more agency over it. But like, I, I, I— we talk about it a lot. It is something I very much still personally struggle with, right? Like, and that knowing that again, that like, maybe this is best for them, you know, like, but that's hard. It's really hard. I think as a dad, as a—

I think— I mean, Shane should go last because, you know, he has the oldest kids and he's done such a good job with them. And we learn from Shane, you know, in all seriousness on this, John. But I would say one, sports are a huge deal because, you know, kind of definitionally controlled adversity. Like, we don't control what happens if they win or they lose or any of that. And if they have a tough coach or whatever. So one, like, sports have been a big deal for that. Right. The second thing for me at least is like, just kind of consistently having high expectations for them on whatever they're doing. It's like, I'm, you know, we don't have an equivalent to you of basketball, but it's sort of like, I don't care if you do this or that, but I do care that you are working hard. I care that you are giving everything. I care that you're not, you know, we, our kids are homeschooling, so they end up with some like one-on-one instruction. I'm always like, I don't care which one-on-one instruction you have, but you're not going to waste this guy's time. Right? If you're— if we're gonna go do it, right, you got to work at it. You got to be coachable. You have to be somebody that this person wants to come for, because we're not just going to go and do that. I think just trying to have high expectations for them and giving them chances where like, it doesn't go well, but we expect that they'll bounce back, get up off the mat. You know, that's the kind of thing we do. But I'm curious what Shane would say, because, you know, he has better evidence of success so far.

Well, I don't know about success. You know, my wife and I are both guilty of, you know, not living the things we're trying to make our our kids do. And as all parents, as all parents struggle with. But one of the areas I think you can really help shape is in relationships. Look, you can never be too good of a friend. You can never be too good of a coworker. You cannot be too good at relationships. It's impossible. And it's like the most human aspect of our existence, right? So, teaching our our kids to do uncomfortable things to do with relationships in terms of making eye contact, having tough conversations. My son Zeke just cut his college list down. And so, most college coaches I'm sure are used to getting a text saying, hey, I'm not choosing your school, and that's the last there's any contact. When I was a senior, I called each coach that recruited me on the phone the day of my I remember calling Tom Izzo and Steve Fisher and Roy Williams, Dean Smith, and saying, hey, I really appreciate you. I've gotten to know you. I have tremendous respect for you and your program. Unfortunately, I've chosen to go somewhere else, but thank you. And, to a man, Tom Izzo sees me and still thanks me for that, right? So, having my son call the coaches that have recruited him and have expressed interest and say, hey, I really appreciate you. But I'm going to choose a different path. That's hard. It's hard for an 18-year-old, but that's only going to pay off. My daughter goes to South Africa for an exchange program. She misses the first week of school, right? Writing an email to each one of her teachers and explaining, hey, I'm going to be gone. I'd love some grace in the first week. Like, that's hard for a 15-year-old, right? But that's only going to pay dividends down the road as they get better in relationships. So obviously, I'm not trying to put them in physical adverse situations. But, when it comes to dealing with people, accepting responsibility, having accountability, all those things are so additive.

Shane, I'm just curious, would you mind parenting my kids?

Totally.

Just a favor. If you don't mind doing that, that would be great.

Homie, I got 3 years till empty nesting, alright? My golf game is getting mad at me.

This is right. Uncle Shane. I like the sound of Uncle Shane coming over to bed.

Yeah, sure.

I told you, that's why he had to go last, you know, John. That's why he had to go last.

There's also the story, my friends, that's not the first time I heard that. I, you know, I had the, uh, the sex talk with, with my son Zeke. You know, it was probably earlier than, than most, and I, I took my son to a, a nice steak dinner at Morton's and had the birds and bees talk with, with him. And, uh, All my friends said, that's amazing. I'm sending your kids to you and you're going to go to Morton's and do the same thing. So, this isn't the first time. That's not my job, alright? I think every parent should have their own intimate relationship conversation with their own kids. That's not my job.

No, I think you guys are smart. Wait till the Glue Guys listeners start asking for this from Shane. Yeah, I appreciate that.

We could start a segment, what would Uncle Shane say?

Oh, yeah. I like that.

Ask in.

Well, Coach, we appreciate your time. It's been an amazing talk. We've loved getting to know you better. We're proud of you as Duke alumni, but more importantly, proud to be your friend. And so, the traditional last question at Glue Guys is, who are the glue guys, the glue gals, the glue people in your life that allow you to be the best version of yourself?

Well, for me, it's my wife. She's an absolute trooper. As you guys know, being a coach's wife is not very easy, not to mention having soon-to-be 4 kids is not very easy. And, she's always just wanted me to anything that's required to be great at what I do, She's never stopped me from doing it. She's always encouraged me to go take that meeting and go be with one of our guys. She's a trooper and she's the glue gal, I would say, in my life that makes it all come together.

Jon, we are so grateful to you. We appreciate you and we're proud to know you and you make us proud to be supporters. So, thank you for taking it seriously and doing everything you do. It's really amazing.

Thank you guys so much. Alex, appreciate you. Thanks, Shane.

Thanks for having me. Let's go Duke!