The Stress, Money & Pressure Behind NBA Draft Night - [Glue Guys, Ep. 72]

So you're locked in essentially for 4 years in your rookie contract. And this is generational money for me. And this is something I've dreamed about my entire life. And I know every, every pick that I'm docked, that is like less money in the bank. And so I'm doing the math. I might be like the 14th pick to Boston. And my agent's like, don't worry, it's all going to work out. And I'm like, oh, he's wrong. He's wrong. I'm going to slide. I'm going to slide to 14. And then right then my agent got the call. And I am like, he's like Memphis. So Ravi, I was watching the NBA draft last night. Okay, so picture the scene, 2001. Okay, so 25 years ago.

Oh yeah, 25th anniversary.

Yeah, 25th anniversary of joining the NBA. It comes on last night and I'm watching it and all the feels came back for me. I mean, all the feels of that night. I remember my 4-button beige suit, which is very in vogue, right? I remember the walk. I remember that entire day. And I would love to talk about sort of what that day feels like. And I have a little different perspective. Absolutely love my draft day.

Oh, wow. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, here's the scene. So in 2001, I'm just coming off stellar 4-year career at Duke. I was 131-13 in 4 years. I was the Naismith Award winner, the 3-time National Defensive Player of the Year, national champion, outstanding player in the Final Four, right? So like literally, I could not have done anything else.

Yeah, exactly.

And so this was also the first year that there was a huge influx of high school age kids coming into the draft. So the guys like Kwame Brown and Tyson Chandler and Eddie Curry—

Kwame Brown, Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry— this is all your draft?

My draft. So Kwame Brown, yeah, went number 1. So this, this was kind of the first year. So like guys like Tracy McGrady, Kobe, obviously Kevin Garnett, like those were the, the big 3 that came out of high school. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is crazy, like a high school kid going to the NBA. Well, those guys are pretty freaking good. Obviously, first bout, all first bout Hall of Famers, their talent was undeniable. But now in 2001, this is kind of the first year where the word potential, the big P, is really rearing its head.

This draft is particularly painful for me as a Bulls fan because, you know, we could have had you. And if I recall correctly, we went Chandler and Curry with our two picks in the top five. But, you know, please continue.

Baby Bulls, you know, and, you know, I played with Eddie and I played against Tyson. And so they're both really good dudes. So, you know, you can laugh at it now. But at the time I was like, "Eh, screw these high school guys." Like, they're coming off prom and I'm like winning every award. Like, and so the draft process for me and the huge knock on my resume was they thought, you know, I was 22 years old And so they're like, well, Battier has reached his potential. He has no upside. He's not that athletic. He doesn't dribble the ball. Like, who's he going to guard? There were always questions about my game and my upside. And obviously, you know, GMs don't get paid to have the safe pick. They get paid for the upside pick. And so I was like dinged heavily. And so I'm in these interviews being like, well, What else? Please tell me, like, what else can I do to show you? Like, I'm going to get better. I'm 22 years old. I'm not like 35 years old. And you throw the fact that I went to Duke and I speak the way I do. So I just didn't like fit the NBA mold. And so like, I'm feeling this. I'm like, I'm feeling this. And so I'll never forget the day of the draft. And I heard actually a kid last night, I forgot who it was, write an open letter to every GM. Saying, look, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be a player, like, oh wow, you better pick me. But my agent, Lon Babbi, suggested, because he knew I was nervous, he's like, hey, just, just call these GMs and make your case why, why you in the top 5. So the first 5 teams were Washington, uh, Chicago Bulls, the, uh, Atlanta Hawks, the Clippers, and the Memphis Grizzlies. I'm sorry, the Warriors and the Memphis Grizzlies, because the Grizzlies were 6.

That's where you got picked, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I visited all those cities and I found myself on draft day calling every GM in the top 5, stating my case.

I mean, well, dude, so Shane, that's— I mean, you think about it as like a bizarre, bizarre, bizarre interaction. Yes. So before we get to like this year's NBA draft, what was their reaction when you called them? Because I've heard you tell me this before of like, you know, I'm calling them, I'm telling them what I'm going to be able to do. I actually, I've never actually heard, what did they say back to you? Did they, would they pat your head and say, oh, that's nice. Like, what did they say when they— Yeah.

Like, they didn't like patronize me. I think they appreciated the fact that I was advocating for myself. And they said, no, Shane, we know you're going to be a great player, you know, but the feedback was like, there are some other players that could be like all-time All-Stars and Hall of Fame players that they had to take a swing, which I'm like, okay. I get it.

I get it.

One GM said, you know, there's one guy that, you know, Sagana Jopp, super nice guy. But like, the GM said, Shane, we like you a lot, you know, but we also like Sagana Jopp a lot too. I'm just like, Sagana Jopp?

Like, he hasn't played in the game of consequence ever, ever.

And so like, I'm incredulous. And at the time, like, yeah, I wanted to be drafted high, but I was thinking about the money.

Exactly. So this is— that was the pay scale, right? Like every— yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're, so you're locked in essentially for 4 years in your rookie contract. And this is generational money for me. And this is something I've dreamed about my entire life. So yeah, I'm excited to be in the NBA, but like, I'm excited to like have a paycheck. And I know every, every pick that I'm docked, that is like less money in the bank. And so, you know, we're all capitalists here. And so I'm doing the math and I'm just like, oh my gosh, like if all these guys pass on me and there wasn't a need for a small forward through like teams 8 through 10. So I was thinking to myself, I might be like the 14th pick to Boston. Oh, Boston, they picked me. Yeah, I thought I was gonna—

okay. Oh wow.

So I, I had serious anxiety about where I was going to end up. Um, you know, there's not a bad NBA city, so I wasn't worried about where I was going to go, but I was worried about the money because that's 4 years locked in no matter what you do, whether you average 2 points or average 20 points, you're getting paid the same. And so the The sweat was absolutely real.

And so when you go, when you go 6, who did you bring with you to the draft? Who was there with you?

I brought my parents. I brought my younger brother, my younger sister, and my girlfriend, now wife, Heidi, which I have a funny story about that later after the draft. And so I had a bunch of buddies. Mike Dunleavy, our good friend Mike D, was there in the crowd., and you can see me wave, wave to them when I, when I got my name called on stage. And it wasn't until, you know, I had no visions of where, like, I was gonna go. I wanted to go 3 to Atlanta because I thought Atlanta was a cool town, close to, close to Durham. Um, I could have played there. They need a small forward. And, uh, I didn't want to go number 1. I, you know, I did not want to go number 1.

You didn't want the pressure, or why not?

I, I didn't think that was a good organization, the Wizards.

I was going to say it's very unlike you to not want the— so it makes sense if the organization— that's very in line with my mental model for you. So that makes sense. Okay.

And that was Jordan's Wizards, and they were a little dysfunctional at the time.

I mean, as evidenced by the fact they picked Kwame Brown.

Yeah. And like, it didn't end well for Kwame Brown. I mean, he's very open about like the mental stress he was under being the number one pick on that team with MJ. And I kind of knew that ahead of time. And I'm like, when they draft me, I was like, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with that. And it wasn't until a guy named Peter Vessi, who was on TV.

Oh, I know Peter Vessi. Of course. Yeah.

Yeah. The next 3 picks in the draft are going to be Eddie Griffin, Jason Richardson, and Shane Battier to the Grizzlies. And this was like after pick 2. I'm like, what? Like Memphis? And it was the first time I— it was the weirdest feeling. It was the first time I even thought about like going to Memphis because when I worked out for the Grizz, I did not work out in Vancouver and they were moving from Vancouver to Memphis. So I'd never been to Canada. And so I did my workout for the Grizz in Chicago. I never had been to Memphis before. But when Jason Richardson was taken and not Eddie Griffin, I'm like, oh, he's wrong. He's wrong. I'm going to slide. I'm going to slide to 14. I'm going to slide. I'm going to slide. And then right then my agent got the call and I am like, he's like, Memphis. And I'm like, oh my gosh. And so it was a relief. It wasn't elation. It was utter relief that the waiting and the stress of that time was over and I had finality. You know me well enough that I like certainty. You know, I just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And for the first time it was not up to me. You know, when you think about the draft, think about, you know, you don't choose where you go, you don't choose who you play with, you don't choose anything. And it was very unsettling to me. And so watching that draft and finally getting drafted, going up on stage and shaking David Stern's hand and just kind of exhaling and saying, man, I never want to go through that again.

So, so, okay, so it brings it back. You have these feelings, you were there, you had this 25 years ago. What's the same? What's different when you're watching it yesterday, when you like observe these kids? I mean, you know, look, these kids are all considerably closer in age to our kids than they are to us.

Yeah.

Now.

Yes.

You know?

Yes.

So what do you think when you see that?

In a lot of ways, they are so much older than we were. You know, even at 22, I was a kid in what I expected and what I knew. You know, with the professionalization of youth sports, which you see with your boys, these kids just grow— they grow up way faster. And the expectations of like, now, I want it now, I want it now, be it right, be it wrong, like that's the mindset and so what you see, what I saw last night, I didn't see a lot of like joy. Does that sounds weird?

Yeah, yeah.

I saw like, okay, yeah, this is kind of like what I'm supposed to do and this is kind of the plan and I'm sure they were happy but they've dreamt about this and manifested it, you know, since they were like 12 years old and like, "Yeah, this is— the draft is just another logical step on my route." And I can't think of another— and maybe you can— I can't think of like another profession. I can't think of another like walk of life where, you know, what most people would think is a culmination, and it's not a culmination, it's actually just the beginning of a new journey. But, uh, but for many it'd be the culmination of a lifelong dream. And you think it's just part of the journey. This episode is brought to you by ServiceNow. Shane, Ravi, and I have our dream jobs. We get to dig into what makes people better as leaders, teammates, and in life. But even dream jobs have not so dreamy parts. The stuff that gets in the way of the actual work. That's where ServiceNow AI specialists come in. They just don't tell you what you should do about your busy work. They actually do it. Start to finish. Case closed. Request handled. No extra work for you. That way you and your team can focus on the work that matters. Which for us, proving that the best thing you can do for yourself is make the people around you better in true blue guy style. To learn how to put AI to work for people, visit servicenow.com. Can you, can you think of anything that, that That works that way, dude.

You know, I mean, it's so interesting you say that. Like, you know, it's like a graduation in some ways, right? Like, you know, there is this thing, but not everybody gets to graduate. You know, that's like a weird analogy. I was, you know, I was thinking about like maybe like when, when somebody graduates from medical school and they're about to go be a doctor because like there is like this thing of like, okay, you know, like I've, I've made it through this gauntlet and now I got to go do the next thing. But most people that get to medical school make it. The difference, of course, in basketball or in professional sports is there's this massive weeding out of who gets to go do it. So the absence of joy is a really important and interesting observation, I think, because it's really hard and it should be unexpected to have made it. Because I don't know, how many McDonald's All-Americans were there on your Duke team?

Yeah, any, any given point, 8.

Okay. And like, how many of them really like get drafted? Like, I don't know, 3, 4? Like, you know, yeah, yeah, 3. But that's crazy, right? Like, you know, you think about, to your point of just like how unique this is, you know, being McDonald's All-American in high school is pretty hard, right? Yeah. And yeah, even that, and then going to Duke and getting a scholarship, that's really hard. Even that, having less than 50% chance of ending up in the, you know, getting drafted, but, you know, then getting grabbed in the top 10, whatever. Do you think, Shane, on the joy point, on the like expecting too much, how much of that do you think is— I'm trying to figure out if it is that they want to look cool and look like they kind of got it all under control, or if it's actually that it's not as joyful because it is sort of the expectation. Like, what do you think the mix is on these, the guys we saw yesterday? Right, or this like generation. How much of it's which is which?

I think the money is so big now that success for these guys, true success, is not making it to the NBA. It's not being the first pick in the draft. It's like getting to your max contract, right? And every— I, and I promise you, all those— everyone whose name was called last night thinks that they're a max contract guy. No one says, you know what, I'm gonna play 3 years in the NBA and probably have to go play overseas, right? Or, you know, I'm only gonna get C1 big contract and, you know, I'm just going to be— everyone has these dreams of snow. Of course, I'm going to be a max player because this is what, this is what has been laid out for me my entire life. And, oh wow. Yeah, I think that's expectation. I really do. And I really do. And those guys don't even know what it takes to be a max player.

Yeah, that's like, well, I mean, you know, you've definitely heard the expression happiness is reality minus expectations, right? You know, I mean, if your expectation is that you're going to be a max player in the NBA, like, damn, it's a tough path to be happy. When I've talked to you or when I talk to other people, well, I guess like, let me just ask you, what does it take to be a max player in the NBA beyond the obvious talent? Like what does it actually take?

Well, first, you know, my son went to NBA Top 100 camp, same camp I went to in high school, and I went to the dinner and they had a statistic and they said, "Hey, look, whatever the consensus Top 100 player is as a high school senior, okay, we can agree or disagree what that is. Only 3 out of 10 people in the Top 100 will ever play an NBA game." Sorry, sorry, sorry.

So, 3 out of 10. So, 30% of that group will play an NBA game.

And that's top 100. Yes. And that's top 100 consensus top players in the country going into your senior year. Like, this guy is a stud. He's Power 5, all the things. So, 3 out of 10 of those guys play one NBA game, right? And then, another 3 of those 10 guys ever see a second contract. Oh, wow. So, like, the odds of getting through are infinitesimal. And again, humans are really, really bad at statistics, so you can't even comprehend how hard it is to, A, be in the top 100, A, get drafted, B, get drafted in the first round, C, play an NBA game, D, see your second contract, right? And so I had an appreciation for what I was able to do in 13 years. Pretty damn good. Like, I beat a lot of odds, right? And my journey was not normal. And so, like, part of it is like, I don't know if you want to know the odds because you might feel like overwhelmed by the odds, right? I mean, Silicon Valley, how many people— it's no different in Silicon Valley. How many people think that they are going to be unicorn founders?

Everyone.

Everyone.

Everyone.

100%.

You know what's amazing, though, is maybe there is an analogy because You know, uh, Iguodala was telling me one time, Andre was telling me one time, he's like, the mental piece is something that people dramatically underestimate in professional sports. Just like the discipline required to go and keep working at, you know, your craft, to be honest about your role, to figure out the thing that you need to get better at. You know what I'm saying? Like, he's like, it's not, he's like, a lot of guys are talented enough. To play for a long time, but are they disciplined enough? Are they mentally strong enough? Are they mentally strong enough to deal with the wins and losses? Are they mentally strong enough to deal with all the external stuff? One of the things that I think about with you whenever you describe your career, you were so aware of, okay, I have these 4 years and then the next contract is a big deal and I'm going to get to that. And that's going to be a certain length of time, and I'm going to do this in order to earn that contract. I guess his point was people underestimate how mentally taxing it is to be a professional athlete. And because of that, they overestimate, they misallocate what it takes to get to the second contract or the third contract or any of that.

Same in business. Or is it— we always talk about the slower curve.

All right.

So you learn so much on the way to the top of the corporate chain. But like maybe for founders, it's a little bit different, right? Because you are at the top of the top of your own ecosystem to begin with. Right. And then you only learn by looking at other founders and other people who've made your mistakes and sort of adjust your goalposts and adjust your expectations. Right. But the mindset of— we're talking about a mindset of a champion. What's the mindset of the one, of the 1% that squeak through the gate and, and get to the other side?

Okay. So Shane, this is actually going to be— it's super interesting. There is a good analogy here. So let's separate out founders from like everybody else, because I think there's two different careers. I think on the like non-founders, I think that the biggest thing that holds people back who are talented, who are not founders, is actually they don't take enough risk. They actually, they want it to, they're used to there being a credentialed game. Okay, if I get to be honors here, I can go to this college. If I get to be honors there, I can go work at this place. And they're sort of like, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. But it's like, they don't, they don't try enough stuff. And so they end up like on a track, but they aren't willing to like put themselves out there because they're afraid of making a mistake. I would say like, this is like the non-founder, the non-founder risk path is not taking enough risk. Peter Thiel told Mark Zuckerberg this one time, which is like, in a, in a world that's changing so fast, the biggest risk you can take is not taking enough risk. You know, and you're like, oh, that's interesting. Right. And so I think that people who are non-founders, a lot of times they're looking for gold stars, right. From an authority figure rather than like, no, I actually have to produce. I have to go do something different. On founders, I think it's interesting. There's actually an analogy to the NBA thing here, which is that when we were coming out of college, if you were going to go start a company, that was pretty unusual. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, I mean, you know, like, yeah, 100%.

What, you're going to start a company?

Yeah.

What do you do? You know?

Yeah.

Where do you start?

And so like, even just to get over like the initial hurdle, of like going and starting something, you really had to be like very entrepreneurial to do that. Today, founders have been like really idolized. You know, you've got these people, they make all this money, you know, there's this like cachet to being a founder. So you've got a lot of people doing it who actually aren't really of that type. And so now a lot of what like determines whether or not somebody makes it is like, are you going to stick with it? For 10, 20 years when the odds are low, when it doesn't look like you're succeeding, are you just gonna keep going? Like, I actually think that like one of the biggest traits that separates out like the successful founders from the other ones is like they stay alive long enough to find luck. There's this like, there's this like, uh, there's this term of founders of like be a cockroach. Like just don't die. Like if you can just stick with it for long enough, like something will break your way. But like people really underestimate how much value, just like the stick-to-itiveness, you know, uh, of like, just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. And I think that like a lot of what, uh, anyway, a lot of what separates out the founders who make it is they're mentally just like able to maintain and withstand its capacity to take pain. That's like a lot of what separates out the ones who do well. They just keep going. You know, most—

I don't think it's different for basketball. Right. And the guys who I played with who flamed out, you know, regardless of talent, were the ones who started to make excuses as to why it didn't work for them or they're pointing the fingers. The coach isn't calling my play. I'm not getting the ball. I'm not getting the opportunity. Well, screw it. I'm just going to go out tonight. Right. I'm not, you know, what's it matter? What's it matter? Right. Yeah. And it's the people that are just like, all right, I got to figure it out. I got to add something to my game. I got to get more athletic. I got to lose weight. I got to do whatever it is that maybe I don't want to do. And it's no different. It's no different.

Well, on that, Shane, when you go back for like you, what was there any moments in the NBA where you felt like I mean, you don't have to name anybody, but like, where you feel like the coach or the organization didn't appreciate you, you know what I'm saying? And like, was there ever a moment where you were close to being like, man, screw this. I, you know, they don't see me. I want, you know, like, did you ever have any moments where you not thought about giving up, but you thought about like letting go of the rope a little bit? You know what I'm saying? Of like, okay, I'm just—

There were times where I was frustrated. I always knew that if not here, then somewhere else. So I didn't look at my career as I played for the Memphis Grizzlies per se. Yeah, I'm probably in trouble for saying this. I looked at— I happen— I play in the NBA, I happen to be in the Memphis branch.

Yeah, right.

And it's just as long as David Stern— as long as David Stern was signing my checks and they had Jerry West logo on my check, I was good to go, whether that was in the Sacramento branch, whether that was in the Boston branch, whether that was in the Memphis branch, right? And so, I did not look at myself as my team and what they thought of me was like final. All I cared about was what does the NBA think about me? And so, from that standpoint, I had a little wider perspective. I didn't get caught up. But, when I played for the Memphis Grizzlies and played for Jerry West, I might have told the story, I was up for my first contract extension and I'd played well. I was the starter of sixth man and we were a Memphis Grizzlies team that made the playoffs 3 straight years. And I was up for my— this is like what I dreamed of, my extension. Okay. I knew if I made it through my rookie contract and I signed my extension, like, I'm set for life. This is like, this is the financial goal. And so my agent calls Jerry West and says, hey, Jerry, My client Shane is up for an extension and at the time you could sign a 6-year deal. And he's like, I think that my client is worth the full mid-level exception of 6 years. And the mid-level exception is the average cost of the salary. So basically my agent's saying like, he is like the most average guy. If you take all the NBA guys, like he's a good player, not a great player, not a bad player. He deserves what the average player should get. Not unreasonable for someone who averaged like 10 points a game or whatever. And Jerry West said, I would never pay that guy that money. I would never pay that. He can't dribble, he's slow, he can't run pick and roll. He plays hard, he's a hustler, but no. And so my agent came back and told me that and I'm like, get me out of there. He doesn't appreciate art. Obviously he's got an agenda. And so that was one time I really got frustrated by someone saying I couldn't play because it was tied to my financial future. My agent said, you know, Jerry is sometimes volatile. Let's give him a week. So he calls Jerry back a week later and says, you know, hey, Jerry, I know we talked last week, but, you know, since then we really haven't changed our view. We think Shane deserves the full mid-level exception for 6 years. And I think that's fair. And Jerry said, I can't I can't agree with you more. Let's do it.

One week later.

And so I don't know if he found God. I don't know. I don't know what happened, but like, he changed his mind. And my agent tells me this and I'm like, let's sign it tomorrow. Like, I can't risk him changing his mind again. Right.

But yeah, I knew. Power outage in Memphis. Yes. Yes.

Yes. The, the day I was supposed to sign it, there was a power outage in Memphis and I just thought, no, I'm gonna— I don't care if there's an earthquake and I gotta, you know, crawl through rubble. I'm signing this thing today. It's happening.

It's happening. Okay. Okay. So before we started recording, you mentioned that there was another thing you noticed during the draft, which was that during the interviews, you noticed like the presence of parents. What did you think about? Yeah. What is that? What was that? Let's talk about that.

Did you notice that? I mean, every interview.

Hell yeah. It's so different. Than like, you know, when I was a kid watching the draft and now it's like a full family interview. I mean, you got the siblings, you got the parents, you got everybody sitting there with them. So yes, but like, I would much rather hear what you think when you notice that. Cause I have, for me, I just tie it back to youth sports. I'm like, how the fuck is this all like a family affair? Like this is not, you know, like why, why are these people here?

Yeah. And you know, what struck me, I was talking to one of my buddies who works in sports. Sports, and we were talking about this, the fact that, you know, the parents are being interviewed right next to, you know, the, the young guy who got— just got drafted. And it's like, no, like, the parents, you, you didn't get drafted. Like, right, you know, your son did. All right, your son is the one to put the work in. Your son— yes, did you sacrifice and give them every opportunity? 100%. That's what a parent should be— should do without thanks. That's, that's, that's the job, right? And what struck me was, and it was a great comment from my friend Tony Barone, he said, you know, I love, you know, in the draft, I love the guys who have to overcome something to make it to the NBA. Okay? Because like the bigger the obstacle they overcome, the better chance that those players are going to stick, right? So he's like, I love guys from Eastern Europe, you know, who just like went away from home when they were 10 years old and just like, this is their dream and they're there and they're crying. You could tell it meant much because they sacrifice so much. You know, the guys from Africa, you know, maybe live in like, you know, South Sudan and like just like, just like basically fled war to have this opportunity to play in the NBA. It's like, those guys, I'm not worried about those guys. Those guys are going to fight. And he's like, you know, what these young guys have to overcome now, and it's very different, is the mental anguish of letting their parents down.

I mean, that is crazy, dude. That is crazy. Like, that's diversity. Yeah, like that, that is crazy.

And does that make sense?

Yes. The thing that this made me think about, okay, there was a, there was a person who used to be like a guidance, not a guidance counselor, but like some sort of like counselor at Stanford. And she basically, he or she basically said that they quit when Freshmen at Stanford started bringing their parents to the first meeting on like, what should they major in? And it was like, wait, what? Like when you were in college, this is not, this is not a team discussion. Like, this is your decision. You want to talk to them later. That's up to you, but like, they don't come to the meeting. And like, you think about, just think about the analogy here. Like, I understand these kids are 18 to 20 years old. However, can you imagine like bringing your parents to like the job interview? You know, like What the fuck? Like, and so the, I completely agree also on the parent thing, which is like the, the job is to do everything for the kid without the thanks. You know what I'm saying? And it's like not to be like sitting next to them during the interview and to talk about what it means for you. It's like, this is his day. This is his day. Like, I don't, I don't even need to be on the screen. This is his day. And you know, what's interesting is like. On that, um, it's on one side, it's amazing that these parents are supporting these kids, they're doing the stuff to help them, whatever. But there is like a little bit of kind of like, I don't know, you kind of let them have their moment, you know. And like, uh, but the letting them down, uh, that is interesting to me because I like, you know, anytime— I'm sure this is true, actually, I I mean, I don't want to let my parents down now. I'm 44, but I don't think that they put that on me anymore. Do you see what I'm saying? And I don't think they put that on me even when I was younger. There was something about graduating from college of like, okay, you've kind of done your stuff that we were supposed to help you with. Now tell me what's supposed to happen with your life. Yeah, I noticed the exact same thing, which is I'm like, these are family discussions and interviews, and it's just so like weird, you know?

Because it's hard. Yes. And that's where I have amazing empathy for these guys. Look, you know, I watch Carlos Boozer, and he is one of my very close friends, and I think Carlos played 15 years in the NBA.

He gets it.

Like, he loves being part of this journey with Cam and with Caden and CeCe. And they were very present, very, very present, you know? But Carlos, I mean, his sons had the luxury of— and we hope to get Carlos as a Glue Guy guest here one day— the luxury of perspective. And he knows, like, look, as much as I love you and as much as I want to support you I can support and yell for you. Like, you're the one who's got to put the ball in the basket, right? And I can only do so much. And, you know, there are stories now, Ravi, of parents calling general managers in the National Basketball Association and requesting a meeting and telling them that you are not using my son right. I know my son. I've, you know, supported him for many, many years. Are not using him correctly. And these are not like bench players, like names you would know. This is the state of modern parenting, unfortunately, and the grossest extension of the sports industrial complex that even in the professional level, then so like it is not outlandish. It is not outlandish to have the parents you know, getting interviewed for the accomplishments of their son because it is now seen as this— we are a team package.

And okay, so, so I can tell you my view on this. And I— it's like emerging as we're talking, but I feel strongly about this. I think people are optimizing for the wrong goal like that. What you're saying here. And the reason is, dude, you think about it like, of course, like people need money. You need money to like live.

You need—

you want money to have security, all that stuff. Stuff, like for sure. But people have like, it's not, you don't just beyond that level of like self-sufficiency and having a good life or whatever. What you really want is like independence. What you really want is like the ability for this person to make good decisions, to solve their own problems. You know what I'm saying?

Agency. Your word.

Agency. You want agency. And so the idea of you calling on your child's behalf when they're like in their fucking 20s at their job, like No, what you wanted was to raise a child that could solve their own problems. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the thing. Remember, they have to be someone else's parent at some point if they continue the journey. You can't just do it for them. You know, they have to learn how to solve the problem. And so it's so interesting in that, like, I'd be so curious to ask those parents because you'd be like, hey, look, okay, so you've decided that you're going to call a GM. Okay. Remember we had Dawn Staley on? She's like, "I get parents calling me all the time." It's like, "Okay, fine. So you're saying that you need to call because this is important. Under what scenario are you going to stop calling? What's going to happen? Is it that they have enough money and then you're like, 'Okay, cool. Now I can lay off'?" Or what is the condition by which you let them go and do what they need to do? And the honest answer is, I bet you they wouldn't be able to tell you. They're like, "That kid's always going to be my kid." And it's like, "No." They have to be able to solve it themselves. And that's the only real pride you get as a parent, I think, is like ultimately like my kid is capable of doing shit. You know, my kid is capable of solving their own stuff and they're robbing these kids, dude, of like the ability to have that feeling, you know?

100%. It's hard for me to, to relate to this because my parents were the exact opposite, the exact opposite of, of getting in front of the camera. You know, they wanted no credit, zero credit. And they just said, Shane, we're proud of you. My dad's, my dad's attitude was always, how cool is this that we get to experience this together? You're like, how cool is this? Yeah, my son is good. You know, he's awesome. But like, he's like, hey, we get to experience this all as a family, as, as a team, as a group. And we all like We all eat, you know? And he's like, "How cool is that? How rare is that?" And my mom, you know, she argued with me more than she argued with referees sometimes. You know, I remember a time in college, my mom's very strong-willed, very, very strong-willed. We actually, I was a senior captain at Duke, you know, our number one team in the country. And we didn't speak for like 3 weeks during the season because she didn't appreciate the way that Coach K would not play some of the walk-ons when we were up 40 points. This is true story. True story.

So let's just go through this. So your mom calls you and it's sort of like, I don't like what's going on. Does she want you to go tell Coach K to play the walk-ons? And you're like, Mom, I'm not going to do that. Yes.

I say, look, no, we got to play. And Coach K, His whole thing was you respect a team by kicking their ass. Okay, so we were just doing what we're supposed to do. And if we're supposed to beat a team by 40, that's what we're doing, right? This is not like party time and everyone gets a participation ribbon. If like our friend Ryan Kolbeck, he knows the drill. Yeah, would he like to play more? Absolutely. But like, he knew like, okay, yeah, we're gonna pound these guys. And if we get in the game, we get in the game, right? And when they get in the game, I gotta do my thing. But like, this is not like participation time at Duke University. And my mom told me, like, told me off. She's like, "That's bullshit." And I'm like, "You're wrong, Mom. Like, you have no context. Like, you have no frame of reference here. You don't know what you're talking about. Like, stick your nose out of it." And like, it got pretty heated. And now I, look, it's my senior year. I'm going to the NBA. Like, and so we didn't, we didn't talk. For 3 weeks because my mom went to the defense of the walk-ons of Duke basketball.

Who knew that Ryan had a real, you know, defense?

Oh, advocate. Advocate. Strong advocate. And so like, that is like the anti, the anti of every parent you saw last night. Can you imagine any of those parents yelling at their third kid that, hey, you didn't pass to the walk-on? All right.

No, no, no, I cannot. I also, though, it does, it does like mean you have to have a different set of skills as like a GM than you historically would have had to. Like, you know, like when we think about, you know, if you were writing like a job spec for a GM, it's like, look, we want you to pick the best players. We want you to make sure that they're, you know, here and that we build the best team. And it's like, also, we also want you to like deal with parents calling about playing time. Like the other thing I was just thinking about this, like. Can you imagine a parent calling like Danny Ainge or something about it? Like, I'm just trying to envision like the other side of that conversation because like what I can— my impression of like having seen Danny Ainge from a distance is like he is like a take-no-shit kind of person, you know? Like, what do you think the call is like if a parent calls Ainge and is like, my kid should be playing more?

My answer is How good is the company? How many points a game does the kid average?

Well, everybody's practical. Everybody's practical when they ask.

We're all capitalists here, Ravi. We are all capitalists.

I will tell you this, like the only analog right now to like professional sports on this dimension is like the AI researcher stuff. Because otherwise, funny enough, dude, generally speaking, like the talent in an organization generally is not actually like the hardest to deal with. You know what I'm saying? Like in business, like most of the time, the people that are really good, they, they kind of, it's like, it's in a great, it's like you, right? They were your best player was also the person like leading and you know, all this stuff. The AI researcher thing is a little bit more akin to like NBA things where you can have some like personalities, you can have some people with some where you kind of got to manage it a little bit, you know. And because like, they could feel like they work for like AI, but like OpenAI division, Anthropic division, Google division, rather than like one of the companies. Like, I don't know if you've seen like some of the movement around these companies. It is crazy. And you'll like see them like announcing and like they'll have been there for 2 years, then they go to another one. They're getting like insane pay packages. But otherwise, like in my world, I don't have to deal with the things that, you know, the NBA GMs have to deal with.

But like, again, like those guys, much like I thought, you're right, they work for AI and then just happen to be in the Anthropic branch. They just happen to be on the open— like my boss is AI. I'm true to the game.

Yeah. But I will tell you, Shane, I think, okay, I think part of the reason parenting has like gotten— let me make this more personal. I one time asked my parents, like, how did you guys deal with certain things that were like stressors when me and Rajan were kids? You know, like, how did you deal with it when we were screwing up or whatever? And basically what they said was like, we had bigger problems than just you guys. Okay, like, yes, we wanted you to do well. But like, we had other things like on our minds. Like, you know, my dad was like, I was worried that I was going I'm gonna like lose my job. Like, you know, we were worried we're gonna have enough money. Like, you know, we just had like other shit that we were dealing with. And so your problems were not the only problems in our life. And effectively, they were kind of like, when people are too into their kids, they basically don't have enough other, like real problems. And so I do think that there's something societally on like the parent thing where like, it's almost like people, they don't have enough stuff that's like the same level of stressors that like, your parents had or my parents had or generations above us had. And that's why they put so much into the kids. You know what I'm saying? And like, I do wonder a little bit about that because like, if, if you're still trying to solve your kids' problems at 25 or 30, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, is it, is it self-preservation though? The history of humankind has been centered around, you know, children being born and having a lot of them to take care of the parents, right? That's true for Indian culture. That's true for African culture. That's true for Chinese culture. That's true for like, right? So is it ultimately self-preservation of like, shit, my kid better have his shit together or else I'm going to be SOL. And if they have a chance, like, I want to be taken care of really, really well. I joke, but is that part of it? Is it ultimately selfish? For wanting your kids to do well so that you're not left in the dark? Is that a concern or is that a subliminal concern?

Hasn't that been around forever? Hasn't that been around forever? Human nature was the same way even, you know, 3 generations ago.

Like, yeah, I think the tenor is different. I think the tenor is different of what we see today than what I speak of historically from antiquity.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. But I guess I think that my honest answer to it is like, it almost seems like there was sort of like a trust at some point earlier on of like, look, if I get them to be about the right stuff, then they'll like take care of me later. And it's almost like there's like less trust now of like, I gotta like micromanage it. I have to like be closer to the details, you know, but like, I don't know, Shane, like. I think about this, like, I, you, we've talked to this, like, I, I'm very like into our kids, you know, perhaps unhealthily so, but I do think that like the path to them, like taking care of me when I'm older is them like actually liking me and enjoying my company, not like forcing them to do it later. And so I hope, I hope that I will be able to trust that it's like, all right guys, like. Go off on your way, have fun, you know, and do for us what you want. But like, I hope it's not me forcing them when they're fucking, you know, 25 or 30.

I mean, man, Savin, are you listening? Savin, Shrey, Nayan, are you listening to this? Please. Same goes for you, Zeke and Elo.

Well, dude, Shane, you're about to have Zeke in college, you know, like, yeah, your first taste of like this dude going off and kind of seeing his place in the world outside of your house?

I, I, it, it's mind-blowing. You know, I was watching him again two weeks ago. He's at the NBA Top 100 camp, and, and, uh, you know, he had a really good week, and people were excited about the way he, the way he played. And it brings me— it brought me way back to, to, to those days of the insecurity. And that's the other part of, of last night. Like these guys haven't got it figured out, right? And there's real insecurity about their place in the world. And you said it earlier about like, are they putting on a front to be like real cool with the jewelry and everything to show like, no, no, I got it. I got it. Man, anxiety is real. And like, I have a lot of empathy for these young guys, a lot of pressure, a lot of family pressure, a lot of NBA pressure, you know?— and like I tell people, draft night, you think it's all champagne and caviar after you get drafted. I got out of the gym at 11:45 that night because as soon as you get drafted, you know, I did— I don't know how many interviews with every radio station, every TV station, you know, photo ops, photo ops with my family, photo ops with Pago Sol, who I got drafted with, photo ops, another interview. And so by 11:45, like the biggest night of your life, like, yeah, we had a table at some nightclub to go celebrate. And I'm like, I want to go to bed. I'm tired. I got to go to Memphis tomorrow, my first day on the job. And like, you're so exhausted from the whole process and the buildup. I mean, years and years and years of buildup for that singular moment. I remember just being exhausted. And I remember going back to the hotel that night, like, I don't know, probably 1:00. And, you know, there was Eddie Curry and Tyson Chandler, your baby bulls. And they, you know, they had bottles of champagne and they were celebrating. But like, even they were tired. I'm like, why are you guys tired? You guys are 18 years old. You guys don't know what fatigue is.

Wait, you were supposed to tell us the funny story about Heidi.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is, you know, I always say comedy is adversity plus time. But the night of the draft, my girlfriend, now wife Heidi, was there and we were very serious. We were probably going to get married. I did not want to be a burden or high maintenance, this type of guy I was. And so when they invited my family to come with me to Memphis, speaking of having the parents come, I was scared to ask for an extra plane ticket for my wife. My future wife Heidi. So I didn't ask her.

Big mistake.

Big mistake. So I hope, I hope, I know all the guys, I hope all the guys brought their, their special A number one, even if you had to pay for out of pocket, okay? Even if it's tough, like, avoid the mistake that I made of leaving your significant other at home because I did, I just didn't want to be a burden on anybody. And, and, but my wife did not take that the right way. She looked at it as I was leaving her metaphorically and physically to go to the NBA, and I was departing on a new charter. And that was the biggest fight that we ever had in our relationship. And there was a time when we, you know, didn't speak to each other. But, you know, on the drive to Memphis, I'll never forget packing up my stuff from Durham and actually driving to Memphis in my Jeep Cherokee, which is my rookie year car, and we had the call, the call, and I apologize for being an ass, and the rest, the rest is history. But we joke about it now, but it was not funny that night. But again, that night, I'll stand by, there was a lot of crap on my mind, and like, it kind of slipped that night. It kind of slipped that night. All right. Not a good excuse, but it is an excuse.

You know, Shane, what's fascinating is like Um, so do you know how the medical match process works?

No.

Okay. So like when somebody graduates from medical school and they're going to go get their residency, they don't just like apply for a residency and get it like way like they get like a normal job. Okay. It's basically like a sorority or fraternity, like rush process where you like rank what you like as like the student and the schools or the residency programs rank what they like. And then there's ultimately this like matching process of like your choices, their choices, but you don't know where you're going to go. And so what ends up happening is the like dean of your school in front of everyone on match day will be like, Shane Battier, and then they'll read where you're going to do your residency. You're learning about it at the same thing. So like there's some analog to like, you know what, it's not quite like a draft, but it's not, not like a draft. Okay. Yeah. And And you've had some influence, whatever, but you don't know. And so at Avni's match day, you know, we're at Washington University in St. Louis and we're sitting there and like, I like work in New York, right? And we're finding out where she's going to go. And this like person gets up and, you know, says where they're going to go. And the reason I think about this is like, you talked about you and Heidi having your biggest fights on like, you know, relating to you moving to Memphis and who's going where or whatever. Dude, by far, other than I've been joking, we've been dating now, dating or married for 25 years. That's a long time. Like this year will be our 19th anniversary. But by far the biggest fights we ever had were on her residency, which is like, where is she gonna go? You know, is she gonna come to New York? Is she gonna go somewhere else? Am I gonna go somewhere else? And so she matches in Philadelphia, okay, which was like, you know, a compromise choice. I live in New York, she wanted to go to Boston, but I don't know what I'm It was the stupidest thing that we've ever done because neither of us was happy and both of the other one thinks that they're the one who made the compromise. I'm like, "Oh, man, I made this big compromise because I have to go to Philadelphia and I have to commute back and forth to New York." Ravi Gupta's like, "I made this big compromise. I don't want to be in fucking Philadelphia, but I did this because you could be close to New York." So both of us are unhappy. But I was thinking about your conversation with Heidi and I'm sort of like, I think that life changes for one person, you know, and their impact on the other person are like huge source of like fighting in relationships, you know, until what ends up happening now is like, dude, let's say that tomorrow you got some job offer in Alaska, right? It wouldn't be a source of tension now because you and Heidi, it's very obvious that you're gonna like figure it out together. It's sort of like, hey, look, we got this thing. What do we want to do? You know, like there was no question as to like, you know, how it's happening. But I think that what you described, I like can feel it like by far the biggest fights Avni and I have had in 25 years were related to like something similar to your, your Memphis move. Yeah.

And so, you know, the story about draft night, some would call it a culmination, some would call it a beginning. Some would call it a huge ball of stress, mostly me. It was not enjoyable. I didn't make the right decisions. And, you know, so when I see that night and people are like, oh, don't you have great memories? I'm like, hell no. I was happy that day was over.

I also remember, Shane, I'm happy I get to talk to you about it because I think think you have a weird situation where it's like you're, you get to remember it every year. Like what a, what like a notable thing, like a ritual that happens every year that you get to think about. But 25 years is a good anniversary to think back to what it was like for Brother Battier on, on draft night. I hope in the show notes we have some picture of you in the gray suit, the, in the tan suit. Yeah.

Tan suit, 4 buttons. Which I still have, I can still wear, which is a badge of honor.

And I think that's as good of a place to end it as ever, that you can still wear the pants.