Aging - [Glue Guys, EP.55]

Amazon is 75 times bigger than they were 20 years ago in terms of, like, revenue. 75 times 75x. What is their annual growth rate? What is their compound annual growth rate over those 20 years?

I think it's a trick question.

It's got to be 30%, 25%.

So baddie is no fun to do these things with because he knows the root of the question. First instinct is like, oh, man, they must be growing at 80% a year, like, forever, right? But getting a little better every year really goes crazy. And we do tend to underestimate compounding. Alex, so when you said that you wanted to talk about aging, I, my brain went to, like, multiple places. You know, one, I felt pretty old because I'm like, man, how old are we that we're talking about aging as a topic on our podcast? But really what I went to was I was like, there's, like, professional aging, there's personal aging, and then there's, like, parental aging, you know, and then there's even, like, you know, our parents getting older to the extent they're still around. And so, I don't know. I, I, I think all of those are, like, interesting to talk about. But I wasn't sure which one you thought was most interesting.

Well, I mean, I think aging's.

Obviously, Ravi has not had his first colonoscopy yet. Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

This is, you know, this is, when you, when you brought this up, Robbie, this is my first thought. Like, you've not had a colonoscopy. That's true. And so when you are of an age to get a colonoscopy, you find your friend groups get together, and health becomes a much more larger part of the discussion. So that's where I went. I went colonoscopy first. I had my first last year. So, Alex, I want to hear where, where, where you went with this.

He also has not had his first colonoscopy, but, you know, maybe that's where he was going. You know, who knows? While you're processing, Alex, just for a second, Shane, I did notice, you know, just to your point, one fantasy football weekend at the breakfast, there was, like, a lot of discussion all of a sudden on, like, labs, you know, and, like, this is where my, you know, my blood sugar is, or this is where my, you know, cholesterol is. Like, I, I have been very bad about this, but I haven't had a physical in four years. So I just had my physical, okay? And I went and took it, and all of a sudden, they took my labs, and, dude, like, to this exact point, this is something I hadn't thought about at all. And then all of a sudden, when I was waiting for them, which, like, God, thank God, everything was cool, but, like, I was pretty worried. I was like, fuck, I'm 44 and I, like, haven't looked at this in a while. Like, who knows what's going to come back? I actually need to, like, pay attention to this. You know, my uncle had a heart attack at 43, you know, like, that's younger than I am now. And so there was, like, all these things, all jokes aside, that I started thinking about of, like, it's almost like you can't just be flippant about it anymore. Age just, like, matters. But, Alex, now. Now you've had a little time to think about what your prompt was for.

Really thinking about it from a professional setting.

Okay?

I think there's a lot of crossover in industry and a lot of industries, especially yours, Ravi. But, like, in sports and athletics universally, it is a young. It is a young guy sport, young man sport, young person sport, right? Like, there's this excitement, there's this energy in the unknown, in the potential, right? And as you get older, you become locked in to whatever narrative is around you, right? Like, and what you are. And you are a finished product. And you. You do have these limitations, you know, whether you come to grips with it, accept it, fight against it, but especially in sports, as you grow older and you become, you know, very quickly become the older guy, the veteran, you know, living here literally, like half a mile from Sandhill Road. Like, there's this same phenomena in tech, right? Like, it is, you know, it is a young. A young person's game. And I think dealing with this as you get older, right, and you're in your profession, no different, right? Like, are you the younger, right? Like, appealing in the know, exciting investor. And. And it's. It was no different in sports, I think, as you're playing. And then even for me now, right, like, as I do TV and talk about this, like, there is a. A relevance. But, like, you do see these older. I see these older, older quarterbacks that are like, I'm. I'm following down this path and these guys are on TV talking about football that. And is like, has it passed them by? You know, like, do they even know. Do they even know current football? Because I have this attitude towards them as I listen and I'm, you know, and am I, like, am I just going to be that same person? And so obviously, there's a lot of a Lot of facets to this.

Shane, what do you think?

Well, as Alex was talking, I kind of laugh. For me, professionally, I was always the old guy. I never had upside baked into my career. Okay, no, true. It's true. I've always been like super mature. So even when I was a freshman, people don't look at me as a freshman. They looked at me as this really like psycho 14 year old that like, was like always in the gym. Okay, I get to Duke, all right? I wasn't this young guy with amazing upside. I was like, I was a pretty good high school player. I don't know how much better bad he is going to get. Like, like, said everybody, no one thought I had upside. All right? I get to the NBA, okay, so I get drafted in 2001 and I, I will never forget, I was in a draft with a bunch of high schoolers and, and freshmen. So, you know, like Tyson Chandler, second pick. Kwame Brown, first pick. Eddie Curry was fourth pick. Jason Richardson, fifth pick. I was a sixth pick. And so I'm like surrounded by all these high school guys. And the narrative on me was like, I have no upside compared to these high school kids, you know, and so this is like coming after National Player of the Year and Final Fours and like, all the things I accomplished in college. And it was like, yeah, that was cute. But like, you don't have growth here, right? And so literally I was calling GMs on my draft day. I called Gary St. Jean at, at the Warriors. I called Pete Babcock at the Atlanta, the third pick. And I said, guys, I know they're enticing high school players, but I have not reached my, my peak yet.

You're calling them yourself, Literally. You, not your agent.

I called them on draft day and my, my agent's like, hey, it might be a good idea. So I'm like, hell yeah. This is real money. This is my money I'm talking about. I may as well be an advocate for it. And so I'll never forget that. And I'm just like, guys, I'm 23 years old. I'm not 35. Like, I'm going to get better. And so I had to laugh. When you're talking about professional age, Alex. I was always old. I never had the benefit of upside in anything because I was, I was so mature. And then, you know, sure enough, like, when I was really old, they said, oh, you're finally really, really old. But it's funny though, but it's so true. It's about what could be. And the allure of potential in any industry. Like, what could be, what could be, what could be. And we're so focused on what's next, who's hot, what could be, and not necessarily what is right now. It's what, what could be. In trying to identify that, there's. There's just kind of like a. A game that everyone plays, that, yeah, I saw that person, I knew them before they were going to hit it, you know, that makes sense.

Shane, it's. That story of you calling the GMs is crazy, right? Like, I'm just envisioning you, like, on the phone with somebody. You've won the national Player of the Year, winningest player in college basketball history, you know, like, kind of singing for your supper. Draft me. Choose me. You know, like, I mean, guys, it's like, you know, it's not to knock any of these players, but, like, you know, some of those players didn't turn out to have amazing careers, right? Whatever. The upside was, some did, you know, some did, but it's like. It's like a hard bet to make. And so, Alex, when you were talking, man, I have so many thoughts that go through my head. One is, you know, when I first started working, there was a guy I used to work with named Dean Nelson. And I still remember the, like, disdain. He was an older. He was, you know, my age now when I started working with him, right? But, like, at the time, I was 21, 22, 23 or something. I still remember the disdain with which he would use this word of, like, that guy's just a pontificator. And I never heard the word pontificate before, but he just. He was so dismissive and so disdainful of, like, someone who's a pontificator. And what you learned was, like, that was somebody who, like, didn't have a lot of recent substance, but was just chatting, just talking and telling stories from 20 years ago. And, you know, like. And stuff that's not as relevant. And it's exactly what you're saying about, like, the people that you don't love. Of, like, has the game passed them by, but they're just talking and so that. It's so funny, like, the things that influence you. I just remember being, like, I never want to be referred to as, like, a pontificator, you know, like. So that was, like, one thing that was going through my head of, like, influences. The second thing is I think that the natural order of things is that you become irrelevant, right? The natural order is that you don't learn new things. And you keep on going back to the same old thing, right? And then things pass you by, right? And in my industry, I mean, that is for sure the norm. You know, like, if you're talking about like the transition to mobile right now, like, people are just like, oh, my God, this old fuck. You know, you like, nobody cares, right? So the function in my world, I think, is just like, are you willing to learn the new thing or not, right? And it's hard. It's hard to learn a new thing. It's hard to do it, it's hard to get old dog. You got to teach a new trick. But, like, if you don't, you know, your irrelevance comes pretty quick. And so I think maybe one difference in my profession versus yours is like, you can continue to play for longer. And if you want to play for longer in you. You have to go and learn the new thing, you know, in order to do that. Because the natural order of things is that you will, like, decay.

That's crazy, because when. When did the, when did the smartphone come out? I mean, this is less than 20 years ago, right? You know, like, in some ways this is. This is even faster than sports, right?

Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally.

I mean, like, you know, innovation hasn't happened. Like, I mean, in, in, in sports and basketball and football, like, schemes change and evolve. But, like, it's not that fast, right? Like, Shane, do you think you were always thought of as the old guy and I was just thinking about this. Does this go back to the Michael Lewis No. Stat All Stars? Like, people never fully could see your value, right? Like, it wasn't as like, this is kind of like the Jalen Hurts thing right now, I think in the NFL is that people can't figure out, like, what makes him so valuable. It's not. He doesn't, you know, he doesn't have the. Consistently throwing for 350 yards. Like, he's not putting up huge points. Like, to take it to a basketball standpoint, right? Like a very. The things that, like, people are used to looking out, right? Like points, assists, rebounds and that your style was different and your value was different. People then, right? Like, so all of a sudden it comes out as like, well, is it a low ceiling, right? I don't know.

Yeah, yeah, no. 100%. It's. Look, it's. There's something about reliability that makes you less. Less sexy, right? And every manager is like, gosh, I just wish I had someone who I knew what they're gonna do every single day. When they show up. But the irony is, when you get that, you say, man, I wish I had someone who had a little more spiky talent, right? And, you know, maybe could give me a little more upside, right? So people. You know, people are paradoxical or hypocritical, and I think Jalen Hurts is the perfect example. He's a winner. He just wins. He just wins. And because he doesn't throw for 250 yards and they still win, people say, yeah, throw for 250 wins. It's the W. It's the W. It's just. It's just reliability. You know, I thought that my. My entire career, and I didn't. You know, I didn't fret over it, and I knew people looked at me in a certain way.

And when you were young, when was the point. When you were just like, I don't get. Or did you never care?

I. I was never the pretty girl, right? I was never. I was never the bell of the ball. I was never the pretty girl that people want to ask prom. All right? That was. You know, I was.

Look at you now.

Look at you now. I was the guy you wanted to marry, not date, right? As a basketball player. Yeah. Right? Is that fair? Is that fair? That's okay. I mean, that is.

But when you're young, did it.

Did it.

Did it sting more when you were young? I mean, I would imagine a little bit.

A little bit. You. You want. You want to be. You want to be hot, you want to be cool, you want to be. You know, you want to be swaggy. You know, I never. I never had that. And at some point, at a very early age, I gave up swag for the. For the much cooler people. I just wanted to win, stay around. You know, it was more important to. To just stay in the game. And the things that I did, all the intangibles, all the glue guy stuff that is. Know, I did for 30 years, and. And people didn't appreciate besides my. You know, until Michael Lewis came around, you know, it was more important to just, you know, be on the floor and be a great teammate.

But.

Yeah, I was always old. Always, you know, always old.

This so does remind me. I mean, I just. I kind of threw it out there right now as I was thinking about. But, like, the. Jalen Hurts is the same thing. Like, this guy, like, in press conferences, he's, like, quoting World War II generals, right? Like, he's like. He is such an old soul, right? He's, like, so stoic. And I do think it's so different from his peers, right? Like the Josh, Allen, Patrick, Lamar, who are just like, I mean, the most thrilling, exciting, you know, players, and they have these splash plays and wild plays and it's different.

Well, what's bullshit about it is the second a guy like Jalen hurts and I live this doesn't do something, everyone's.

Quick to say, aha, totally see it.

You know, like, that's why, that's why he's not a dude. You know, forget the body of work that he does that he's put in, and the super bowl that is, that he's competed for every single year, right? The second little failure and you don't pass the eye test, you know, people are like, I knew it. I knew you're not special, you know, and, you know, juxtapose that to Lamar who's like, guys out of this world. Out of this world. But he gets a little more of a. More of a pass, but they hold him to maybe a little higher expectation too. When he does fail, there's much more vitriol versus when, when hurts fail. But when the guy like Hertz fails, everyone is quick to say, aha. I knew it. I knew he didn't have it.

Amazon is 75 times bigger than they were 25 years, 20 years ago in terms of, like, revenue. 75 times 75x.

Okay, yeah.

What is their annual growth rate? What is their compound annual growth rate over those 20 years? So they're 75 times bigger in terms of revenue.

Yeah.

So if they had 2 billion of revenue, they. 150 billion of revenue, like, yeah, they are so much bigger. 20 years.

Okay.

What do you think their compound annual growth rate is over that time period?

I think it's a trick question. And I, you know, this is the, the effects of compound interest. So I'm going to say 3%.

What's their growth rate? You're asking me over, like, what average? I mean, no, I gotta be higher. It's gotta be like, it's gotta be. It's gotta be. It's gotta be 30%, 25%. Agree.

So Baddier is no fun to do these things with because he, like, knows the root of the question, but it's like 20 to 25%. Okay, 20 to 25%. But the point is, if I told you somebody 75 times bigger than they were 20 years ago, the first instinct is like, oh, man, they must be growing at 80% a year, like forever, right? But getting a little better every year really goes crazy. And we do tend to Underestimate, compounding. You know what I'm saying? And I think the thing that's interesting on you, Shane, if you think about it, is sort of like the thing people misunderstood was it's like whatever your rate of growth was, there was growth every year because you wanted to win, just like you have to get better every year. And I think the same thing for you, Alex, which is like, look, ultimately at some point you're sort of like, I, I have to keep winning. And one of the things that you talked about last week was just like this point of like your mechanics continuously getting better, even though you're already a really good NFL quarterback, but you still working on the mechanics. Like that is the compounding. That is the like, you know what? I'm just keep going. There's this thing called the Rule of 72, okay? Rule of 72, which is basically like, take whatever percentage growth rate you have, okay? And take 72 divided by that number, and that's how quickly it doubles. So if you grow at 3%, it takes you 24 years to double. But if you grow at 8%, it only takes you nine years to double, right? And if you grow at 12%, it only takes you six years to double. But you don't need actually all that much different for you to double way, way, way quicker. So just take 12% versus 3%, okay? If you double, if you grow at 12%, you double every six years. If you grow at 3%, you double once every 24 years, right? So in 24 years growing at 3%, you've doubled once. If you grow at 12%, you double Every six years. You've doubled four times, right? Over that same 24 year period, two to the fourth is 16. So you are 16 times bigger if you grow at 12%, right? Versus if you grow at 3% and you only are two times bigger. Do you see what I'm saying? So think about, like, how different it is to grow at 12% versus 3. But to your guys's point, oftentimes we're looking for like, is it growing at 100? Is it growing at 80? Is it, you know, how fast it growing, how fast growing. What you're really trying to figure is how long for how long will it grow? You know, like the companies that got big, it's not that they grew at 100% the longest, it's that they grew at 20 or 30% the longest. You look at any one of these companies, you know, meta, Amazon, any of them. The thing that's unique is how long they grew at 20 or 30, not how long. They grew at 100. And I think that same thing is true at people. The problem is sometimes people stop growing or they go negative because they just don't get any new knowledge, right? And they just keep extracting from the old. So to me, so much of what I think about is like, how can you just keep growing some, you know, even 10 or 12%, like, for yourself? And I think that's like a huge deal. Just the continuous growing. Sorry for the rant.

No, just flex right there. That was boardroom investor flex, you know, investment committee. Investment committee flex right there. But you know what I'm saying.

A lot of maths.

No, no, I. A ton. And again, like, I guess I have multiple thoughts and not to turn this into the Jalen Hurts episode, but this is a guy that was perceived to not be able to throw the football at the University of Alabama. Like, could not throw the football. Benched for tua, like, just completely cast off. And I think at that point, that narrative that people had put on him, right, he's basically this running back playing quarterback, and then just that. He is. I think he's such a perfect example. This has just been steady improvement. He decides to go to Oklahoma, right?

They. They.

He knows they throw the ball. It's a great place for him to develop those skills. He wins the Heisman, right? He's still. Even when he gets drafted, he's still not really thought of as this.

This.

This kind of as a real. I don't think, like a pocket quarterback, right? And it's just like, continue to. To work on this craft, and he'll never.

He'll never be known as that, right, Alex? He'll never get the credit. He'll never get it.

You watch him. And this guy.

I mean, no, I know we agree he's a baller. I love him. He's awesome. But he, like, the gen pop, will never give him his flowers for being, you know, to Peyton Manning, right? Yeah.

No, but he's so fundamentally sound now.

Philly fans give him. Because I take your point on general population. Is there anybody who sees it up close and knows what they're seeing? Then does anyone appreciate Jalen Hurts?

Oh, very few, I think, really know how to understand his value.

I think.

Alex, here's a question.

As a product of an amazing roster, I think they see the tush push. He just is a guy that benches. You know, he squats 700 pounds, right?

Question, like, do the. Do the real football minds appreciate Jalen Hurts? Like that's what I'm trying to understand. Like, Shane, I. To me, I've always envisioned that there are some people, right? In basketball, like, the real basketball minds are like, dude, I would fucking take baddie all day. Don't give me this. That I don't care in football, Alex, like, does Tom Brady appreciate Jalen Hurts? Like, I'm talking like real. Does Peyton Manning appreciate Jalen Hurts? Like, do people like that? Is it sort of like an indicator of your football knowledge how much you appreciate Jalen hurts? Is that like a real thing?

My guess is those apps, without a doubt, those guys see the value that he has.

Okay, so that's interesting.

Just how different it is. And it just, it just because he's not at the line of scrimmage audibling to plays all the time, they, again, they don't throw it 45 times a game, right. That this guy still, if you take his value, I mean, he is an elite, elite decision maker. Like, you think about that. I mean, you have the ball in your hands every play. And first off, this is what's really unique about him. The run game, the Philadelphia run game, right? And saquon going for 2,000 yards, it runs through. Jalen hurts. They RPO more than anybody in football. And I don't even mean just rpo. They also go run to run. He makes a decision or is reading somebody on virtually every single play. They rarely get under center and Jalen turns and hands off. Now they do it a little bit, but for the most part, he drives the run game. He's making a decision. He's again, whether it's a check or read a linebacker, a defensive end, he's reading somebody on every single play. And so when Saquon's getting these very open looks in the run game, it's because he's accounted for somebody and sometimes two people, if that makes sense. Right? Like his value there you. You could not do that with a Peyton Manning or a Tom Brady, right? Like in the run game, they're all of a sudden now an anchor in the run game. Whereas Jalen is this huge value. And I'm not even talking about once he's decided to pull the ball and run in, which at that point I do think he leads the NFL in third down convert. Like if you take about, you know, first down conversions, goal to go situations, obviously Tush push a part of this. This guy's greatly leads the NFL and these are critical situations in football that he comes through. And then I think his ability to throw the football, you make A decision on every play as a quarterback. And to have maybe the best decision maker in the game doing that, you compound that over time, right? How many times do we see him make a critical error? Right? Like, it just. Yeah, it virtually never happens, him making a critical error.

You know, I, I like. I like the word compounding. And Ruby, you said it. Well, humans are good at addition, horrible at multiplication. Right? And no, that's true. It's true. And that's probably the problem with, with this behavior and little additive things that you do. Whether it's, you know, going for a walk every time you have a meal. Right. Or. Or totally taking the stairs instead of taking the elevator.

Right.

We look at that as well. I just took the stairs today. It doesn't make a big difference on my health. But you do that like four to five days. You do that for weeks on end. It's not additive. It is exponential.

Yeah, totally.

Yes. Right? And so, like, maybe that's the problem with all this, right? The things that Jalen Hurst does. It compounds upon compounds upon compounds of winning behavior. And that's why he's so good. But we're so poor at understanding that we just look at it as, okay, you're stacking habits. No, you're multiplying habits. That's the difference. I believe in that. I think that's what I did. That's my. I get it. But most people, I think, have a difficult time wrapping their arm. Their arms around it.

I completely agree. Like, I understand this conceptually, right. Like, this makes sense to me. However, when you're in. When this is you and you're in this shoes, and you're the 15% grower, right? And there's people around you, your peers that you're looking at and comparing yourself to. And they are the young, exciting, they have exponential growth. Like, the hard part, I think is the patience is my point, like, to just trust, like, and this is the idea of like trusting the process kind of thing like that I'm running my own race and I'm comfortable with that. It's hard. Cause you constantly want to compare yourself.

Okay, I agree with you guys And Shane, I know I caught you on that point of like, hey, don't call it exponential because it's spiky. It's like it goes up and then it might not stay up, right? It will come down. So I feel you, Alex. There is something that's going through my head. So a couple of things. One, like, I agree with you. I think we are bad at identifying, like, long Term compounding behaviors. Frankly, if you go back to aging, it also is in the bad way. It's like the. The opposite of the stairs. Every day is like the little piece of chocolate right before you go to bed or something. Whatever it is. Like, the problem is we kind pick our heads up and like, oh, man. We are either the beneficiary or the victim. I don't like the word victim, but, like, the victim of the compounding behaviors. Either direction.

Right.

Because they work in both ways. And, Alex, I agree with you on the patience point of, like, we just don't sometimes recognize it. Where. What role do you think urgency plays? Okay. Because the thing that I feel like sometimes when people talk about being patient is it's an excuse to, like, not move fast enough.

Yeah.

And that's. Do you see what I'm saying? So, like, I. I want to think about the tension there. Because, like, sometimes when people say, like, oh, yeah, I'm a compounder, I'm like, no, you're just late. You're not doing enough. Like, let's go. And so I. How do you think about the right balance of urgency in there, you know, and not being complacent?

I think that's a great distinction to make. Like, patience doesn't mean you're just. You're not, like, again, you're not doing anything. You're not just, like, fine with the status quo. There is a curiosity, there is a growth mindset. But I do think sometimes.

If you.

OD on the sense of urgency, you're so sporadic, right. You're almost too emotional. Like, I've been a part of places where, like, it just. You freak out. Right. I've been on teams that you lose and you freak out and you jump around and you then do these extreme things, and, like, you never have an identity and you never have a process, and you never make the small gains then because you're just, like. You're hysterical almost. You know, like, you ride the roller coaster too much. And so I do think you. There's some patience mixed in this to make the adjustments that are needed. Does this. Does that make sense?

Yeah. I got a framework. I got a framework. Shane, Alex, tell me if you guys agree with this. What if the point is you need, like, the urgency? The right amount of urgency is the urgency that you can maintain for, like, a long time. Do you see what I'm saying? Because, like, if it's like, sporadic urgency, it's like, well, no, come on, who cares? Because then you don't get the consistency of It. But it's like, you should be urgent, but you gotta be at some level of urgency that you think you could do all the time, right? Because, like, then it will compound and it'll continue. And. And I think that a lot of times the things that frustrates me when I'm around someone is they don't have enough urgency. And I'm like, you're not. You're below the level that you could maintain for a long time. I went to the labor cup this past weekend. You know, that was in Chase center, like, tennis. And like, I was thinking about it, like, the ball boys, the ball boys and ball girls, they have, like, crazy urgency, right? Like, you go see a ball boy or ball girl, they are moving their asses. You, like, can't be like that all the time. You can't. Like, you know. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's like too high. But there is some level of, like. I don't know. I think there's a. It's. It's Shane's thing of productive paranoia. It's like, if I don't get better, I almost think you kind of have to believe if you don't get better, people are gonna catch up to you, you know, like, there's a massive risk of inaction. I think that's the thing. You gotta believe.

I would agree with that. I think I was a very urgent player as I was trying to make it. Yeah. Just for that reason, Ravi, I was always afraid there was someone out there, like, that's working harder. You know, I'm watching tv, someone's working like crap. Like, I did I do enough? I was always worried, did I do enough? Did I do enough? Did I do enough to do it, like, today that do enough today, they do enough this week? I don't know. I don't know. So I better, like, just bust my ass to make sure that I did enough. Right? And so I think the urgency is more backward facing than it is forward facing. Lisa. Was for me, the urgency that I had was. I was always scared I didn't do enough.

Yeah.

So it propelled me to bust my tail today. So I didn't. I didn't look at, like, I got to be able to have urgency for the next, you know, next year. Like, you burn out, right? Like, I got to have urgency for the next 13 years of my NBA career. Like, there's no frigging way.

Right.

But if I was honest with myself about what I did yesterday or what I did in the summer to prepare for the Upcoming season. There was a tension there. It's like, oh, crap, man. Like, I hope I worked hard enough. You know, you don't really know until you're. Until you're there, you know? Right, Alex?

Yeah.

You always, you always hope that. So the. For me, I think the urgency is present to backwards looking versus forward, forwards looking.

I think your idea of sustainable urgency is really interesting. When I think about the guys that end up having long careers, right? Like that, that at least on the athletic side, that play a long time, again, if the urgency is so maxed out, you don't enjoy anything you do not like you. You cease to enjoy any part of the process. And I think the guys that end up playing at least in sports again, 15, 20 years, they obviously, they have a growth mindset. They're critical of themselves. However, like, you can't do it for that long if you don't. There has to be part of it as well. Like, I just think that, like, the off seasons, the training camps, the travel. Shane, like, on the road again, the play games, like, you're gonna lose quite often, right? And in the NFL, on the NFL, you get humbled. Routine.

Let me ask you, was, was there ever a week you finished, Win, loss, draw, or a season that you finished? And you said, you know what? I figured it out. I got it. No good?

No, no, no, I'm good.

Oh, like, oh, no, no. Like, oh, man. You know, we may have lost, but, like, I, you know, I. I had it. I. I had it. I get it. I understand exactly what it is, and I'm good. I'm good to go. I'm good to go. No, you are friggin. You're. You're. You're like, shit. Like, yeah, we won, but we could have very easily lost or we had a great year. Oh, we had. Plus turnovers. It could have been really bad. Right? You are, like, constantly paranoid.

Let me, Let me fight with you guys, both of you, just for a minute, because I don't want. Hold on, hold on. Shane, Senior year at Duke, okay? You, player of the year, number one before the boozer injury, okay? I. In my brain, you're like seeing the Matrix there. It's like, no, I don't. I'm not paranoid. I'm like, no, we got in my brain. I'm envisioning you being like, no, I'm like a basketball. Basketball sensei. Like, I've done this. I'm a senior. I'm like the. I get. I get it. And Alex, same thing for you as a senior at Utah, I'm in my brain. I'm sort of envisioning you be like, no, man, I'm pulling these strings. I am not getting the strings pulled on me. And then what I thought was that it changes once you go to the pros. And then all of a sudden everything's different. But I would have thought there are moments in your life where you're kind of like, I am seeing the matrix here. I am, you know, like, you guys are Neo in this picture. Is that. Does that not happen when you, like, you know what I'm saying? Take your. Again, Senior year of college. Was that there?

I would say. And I call this, like, I like this term for music artists. It's called your imperial period. Okay? Your imperial period as an artist is when your commercial success matches your critical success, okay? And the, the critics are like, man, this album is a banger, okay? And, and, and the, the Gen pop is like, yes, this is number one album now. There are times when, like, you're critically acclaimed, but your album doesn't sell, right? And there's times when your album sells with the critics. Like, this is shit. You're imperial. And it's a finite period. You do not go in and out of your imperial period. It's a finite period. So 1970, 1976. Elton John, okay? That is his imperial period.

That is what you came up with. You are old.

How many?

Don't shoot me. I'm only a piano player. Goodbye, yellow B road. I mean, banger, banger.

There are like, there are like five listeners that know what the. You're talking about.

Like, what you couldn't have dropped, like, Jay Z blueprint? Like, you're, you're talking ELTON John in 1970, dude. Like, how do you even know it.

Was a six year period? It was a six year period. That's why it's impressive. Okay? That's a long imperial period, okay? Blue Album, 100%. All right? Notorious B.I.G. ready to Die, 100%. Okay? I made myself there.

Imperial period.

So imperial period, where your superpowers match up with everything on that anecdote.

You're correct, Ravi. Like, my imperial period would have been my. My last year of college, right? Like, I. I mean, I was in control. I was like, insanely confident. You do. Then there is this looming jump to the NFL in which I. I mean, I played 16 years. I never won it all, though, like, you know what I'm saying? And like, you're always and. And never talked about, right? Like the top of your position. And you know, for me, like obviously kind of always following in that second tier at best, you know, and never won and never won the whole thing. Right? So, like, I do flip this on you, Shane. When you won the championships with the Heat at the end of the year, were you. Was there not a little bit of this feeling like.

And. But do tell us about your imperial period, because I had guessed that where it was. But do tell us where it did show up and then answer Alex questions.

Too, and put some money in the fine jar for your Elton John.

Yeah, shout out Elton John. All right, he's gonna, I'm gonna get him on the show and you're gonna, you know, you're gonna say that to him.

O you get Elton John on the show, we will apologize to him directly.

I got that, I got that term from music podcast. So that's why it's on my mind like in the, in the definition of imperial pure, the use Elton John.

That's why a Renaissance man. I mean, that's just a fact.

You're a fact.

It's fact.

Well, you know, Alex, the answer is no. When we won championships with the Miami Heat the first time, first of all, they lost to Dallas the year before. So you understand how fragile championships are. The next year we're in the playoffs, Chris. Chris Bosch goes down and they have to start me at the starting power forward position. Okay. And so like, yeah, it worked out, but no one was super confident that.

This is the answer.

Baddie8 Power 4. It worked out well. Really well. But yeah, hell yeah. But no one was the confident in the time. It wasn't like, oh, yeah, this is a no brainer. Like, yeah, put baddie at the power four position. £30 on a undersized. And then the next year, it's the Ray Allen shot. So like after every championship, like there was never like, oh, yeah, this is a no doubter. This. It was very fragile and it was, it was, it was always tenuous. And then, you know, roving 2001, you know, same thing. I had battle scars from 1999. We lost the UConn when we were supposed to be a historic team. And so like, I've always respected, like to be a champion. It's not you, you know, you never think you have it. Okay, Never. So my imperial period as a player was 2008, 2009. Okay. That is when I was at my peak physically. So I'm like 30 years old. 2930.

Okay.

I can still move, I still jump. Okay. And that's when I went to Houston and I learned Data analytics and how to be like a Moneyball defender. Okay? So I had, I had the knowledge and I had the athleticism, okay. And the experience and I could put those all three together. And not that I was stopping guys, but like I felt like when I stepped on the floor I could, I could, I could put guys in a position where they weren't going to be their best because I could do that physically and I could do that mentally. And so for a two year period, I made second team, all defense. I should have made first team, but that's neither here nor there. It cost me like 100 grand in incentive bonuses. But I'm not bitter. You know, the media. The media votes on that, not the coaches. No, the coaches vote on that, not the media. But that at that point I felt, at least offensively, I felt like I saw the Matrix.

This is insane. I'm saying this, but my initial aging thing, right, like, especially as it related to you, you know, your professional career is kind of this idea is when you're past, I guess, your imperial period.

Right?

Like, and dealing with that.

Yes.

When you're like ELTON John in 1977. That's what you're.

You know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, like either you have slowed in sports or it's like your body physically slows down. You just no longer have the ability you once had. But professionally. And this is the interesting thing that like in most professional careers, actually you're not impaired, you know, from an ability standpoint. But even whether perceived and. Or to your point, Ravi, like out of the, out of the know, how do you deal with that? You know, that's like, that's hard.

Mortality. You, you see your mortality, you see your. More like you're, you're professional mortality.

Yeah.

And you have to be honest with yourself that, you know, like Toby Keith, I'm not as good as I once was. I could be good once as I ever was. Right. Ravi, speak about that in business, you know, being honest with yourself when you are past your imperial prime and like, do you believe that that translates to the C suite? Is there an imperial, imperial period for an executive where they are at the top of their game and is that a fine, Is that a finite period? And how long would that be? I know it varies for everybody, but what would be an appropriate imperial period for somebody and when and where does that come from?

Yes, for sure it exists, I think in business. I would just give you an example of. There was probably a five or ten year period where John Doerr, who was the guy who ran Kleiner Perkins for a long time, like, he invested in Google and Amazon. I mean, you know, it's just like, what are we talking about? Doug Leone, Mike Moritz? Like, some of these guys, like, just crazy periods where it's like just a streak that is like, you know, it's ridiculous. And so, yes, it definitely happens. I will tell you guys and then I'll. Shane, I'll answer your point on executives, whatever. But, like, I'll tell you, like, so much of when you guys are talking, I can identify to myself of, like, the benefit and the curse of being in business rather than sports is like, you don't have the aging of the body. And so it's just about, like, how committed are you to avoiding, you know, becoming irrelevant? Like, I'm like, I don't want to be irrelevant right now, so I have to go and learn a bunch of new stuff because otherwise my professional mortality is, like, right in front of me. And instead I'm like, no, forget that. I'm not going to do that. And therefore, I need to, like, go learn stuff. I need to do stuff. I need to go.

Don't you think there's an energy level associated with that, though?

Yes. Yes.

Like, you have a willingness and you have the energy to do it and a drive. Okay, the second you don't have that, yes.

The moment you don't have the burning desire to compete, it's over because somebody else does. Like, you know, our field is not the same as your field where you're, like, physically on it and getting, you know, you know, pancaked if you don't play, but you'll lose. You know what I'm saying? Like, and every time you go face to field, like, you will lose in my business if you, like, all of a sudden, like, don't keep going. And so you need the energy and the drive to go. So. Shane, I agree with you. Like, the way it shows up for executives or other people is they start trading on their past. Do you see what I'm saying? They start trying to trade on their name rather than trading on their content. And that just, like, gets stale really, really, really quickly. Now, it doesn't get stale as quickly as it does in sports. This is why sports are so cool that you literally can't trade in your name at all. You know, like, if you go on the floor and you're not good, you go on the field, you're not good. Like, you don't. Nobody gives you any grace. Like, there is still some, like, extraction of the Reservoir, you know what I'm saying? You can pull from the reservoir in business for some period of time, but it doesn't last for very long. And I agree with you. Like, the thing that the, the limiting factor is energy, Shane. It's just not as physical. Like, for you guys, even if you have the energy, your body breaks down. Like, you know, for, for us, if you can maintain the energy, you can go for a really long time. And it's not a physical thing.

The aging part's fucking hard physically. Like, when you're an athlete, right?

It is.

You want to talk about in the athlete's ego. Like, I, when I was 21 years old, there wasn't a throw on the planet that I didn't feel like I could take. Like, I felt I could do anything and everything. I mean, I was like, you know, peak powers and you know, you fast forward and again, obviously the town, the step up in talent and things. And like, it is humbling to like all of a sudden like, tell. Like, I don't tell your coach. Like, I don't. I don't think I can make that throw. Or like, tell yourself, tell yourself that you. I don't think you like and then. But there is like, growth there because you do have to tweak, right? Like, you know, again, you got to play differently. Like, I, I got to throw balls earlier. I got to play with more anticipation. I got to get the ball out quicker, a step ahead. But then on the flip side of that, you just said it different than business. Like, you know, you toe the line once a week in football. And so you. There is a grade, right? Like, they're like, there's an evaluation that everybody sees and so you can fight back. And like, there was a lot of gratitude at the very end of my career, especially when I came back from my injury. Like, you, I can still play. You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Like, the last, like, I got half a leg man, and I can still go out here and win games and you know, and like, I can. It looks a whole lot different, but like there was like a final. I guess the, you know, don't go quietly into the good night kind of totally dude moment. Robbie, have you had your imperial period?

I'm gonna answer your question, Alex. Shane, what you reminded me of one time you said you went from underrated to like rated to overrated at some point. I think you had mentioned.

Right?

Yes, yes. And so I guess, like, maybe in that vein, Alex, like, I've definitely not had an imperial beard. I like, don't. There's nothing I've done that's like accomplished that. But I guess what I'd say is I think that when I was at Instacart, I think I was doing a good job. And I think that whatever my little world was, was aware that I was doing a good job. Do you see what I'm saying? And it was like I was like, doing a good job and it was known that I was doing a good job. And so I don't know, I think that's probably some like, analogy to this. I think the thing that I will tell you is that like, you know, this guy Brett Taylor, I find to be very inspiring on this dimension, which is like, this guy has had a crazy career, right? You know, like helped co found Google Maps, then like went and founded a company. That company gets bought by Facebook. He becomes the CTO of Facebook when they go public. He then founds another company. He gets bought by Salesforce, becomes the co CEO of Salesforce and now is the chairman of OpenAI and the founder of Sierra, which is another company that he founded with Clay Bevore. And they're like crushing and it's an amazing company, but like, you look at that background, it's like product guy, engineer, founder, sales guy, CEO, chairman, like, but he's like our age and he's still like doing new stuff. And the thing that he says which will take me to the question that you'd asked, which I think about a lot, is he's like, I don't want to be an ossified version of my old self. I don't want to be like the way he's like, what I was in the past was I was like an engineer and people are like, oh, like, cool, that's what you're going to be. And he's like, no, I want to like, learn sales.

Sales.

Oh, you're a founder. You're not like, at a bigger company? No, I don't want to just be a founder. I want to learn how to do it at a big company. Oh, okay, cool. Now you're a big company. No, no, no. I want to go and learn how to be a founder again in the new world. And he just sort of like keeps learning. Like, the thing about him is, despite, like, he has the ability now if he wants to like be on six boards, have everyone look at his career and be like, this was amazing. And kind of like coast. And he's like, no, like, I want to keep learning. And I Have found that I'm, like, nowhere near this guy at all. But I find that to be pretty inspirational because he's like, has new stories to tell.

Is his. Let me ask you this. On this is his sense of urgency, like, at a 12 question.

Great question. You know what's amazing, Alex, is I think what he has that's good, and it reminds me of you guys. Honestly, I think he has capacity to maintain a higher level of urgency than many people. But, no, it's not like he's working till three in the morning every day. But what he might do is in the time where he's at work, he might do 12 sales calls in a row, which is a lot like, that is a lot to, like, be able to kind of get in the morning and do 12 meetings in a row that are, like, selling his product. And a lot of other people would get fatigued with that, you know. But I would say the consistent sense of urgency he can maintain is pretty high, but it is more sustainable. Like, he's a great dad. He has three kids. He, like, you know, he goes. He likes. Gets in early and goes home, like, at a normal time. But I think that what he's probably unique at is, like, having success not change his sense of urgency. Do you see what I'm saying? Like, he has been able to, like, keep going despite, like, having enough money and having enough respect, you know, out there. But he, like, still codes. And I think that him still coding is, like, staying close to the metal, you know? But I think he's a very unique person in, like, our game, you know, like somebody who feels that paranoia and feels that aggression still is unique. And he deserves to be treated differently because he is unique. But I find that to be very inspirational. One thing I find, I'll tell you, like, selfishly, the people I like being around have, like, interesting stories to tell, right? They, like. But that means they have new experiences that create interesting stories, you know? And I think, like, part of our job to be, like, interesting to our friends and interesting to our kids and interesting to our spouses is like, keep having interesting experiences. So you can keep having interesting stories. You know what I'm saying? Because otherwise, if you're just telling the same ones from forever ago, people kind of like, you're just. You're kind of.

You're.

I don't know, eating from the same bowl of ice cream.

Robbie, you're completely on my entire business model as a.

Shane.

This is all I have anymore, Robbie. People do not want to. Do not sign me up. To say, hey, Shane, tell us how you, you, you learned how to code using Claude code.

I disagree with you.

No one cares. No one cares. They want to hear. Tell me about LeBron. Tell me about Coach K. No, no, no, hold on.

I'm fight with you here, okay? Fight with you again. I agree that you have a greatest hits album. That is a really good album. Okay? You have a great, like Game 7 at the NBA Finals playing the Fade. You know, like in that moment I knew what it was all about. Like those, that's a good greatest hits. However, I would say I think that people like hearing about your new experiences too. You know, I like hearing about you taking zone.

When you go see Elton John. Shane, when you go see Elton John in concert, do you want to hear his new or do you want to hear no.

Tiny Dancer and Rocky Dancer? I want to hear Rocky, man. You know?

Yeah.

You know, I, I, I actually don't look at my, my career now and talk about urgency. Thinking about this. Like, I, I have an anxiety and urgency. I just turned 47, all right? So I'm closer to 50 than you dudes here. And so there's something about that number, all right? And I feel great. I don't feel 47, I feel 26. I can, you know, I'm still athletic. You're the pretty girl now.

You look great.

Yeah, right. But I do feel an urgency to like, okay, what am I about and what, you know, and people who are older than me, like, oh, you're still a puppy. But like, there's an urgency to, to continue to learn, but put my stuff out there in the world to help other people, whether it's through corporate speaking or books or this, this podcast, and it's real. And you know, the way I look about, look at my career and this and the experiences that I, that I have. Look, it's, every time I go to do a corporate speech, I get the same questions, you know, how do I deal with young people? You know, young people are entitled. How do I deal with young people? Right. It's the same thing that they were saying about young people 30 years ago. How do I reach the younger generation? Right? I'm a first time manager. How do I think about leadership? Right? How do I find balance? How do I, you know, how do I climb the corporate. So these themes are timeless. They're just packaged in a different way, I guess you could say. And so I look at my, my stories as is applicable today, as they will be 30 years from now. Because you're dealing with People. And so that's the fun part for me is figuring out, okay, how do I, how do I explain this in a way that has modern context? Yeah. And that's what keeps me fresh, and that's what motivates me to keep on going, learning, and find different ways to communicate and connect with folks. So I say that half Jeff.

So I know that I know I.

Have, I have a greatest hits album, and I use those stories a lot. They're good stories, but finding the ways that they're applicable today to today's problem society, that's the, that's the challenge in the ballpark.

It also, Shane, it's so funny that you, like, made the joke because I was like this.

You.

You were like, actually playing around with the AI tools yourself. You are the one who was always like, hey, guys, I like, plugged in our podcast into this thing and here's what it's saying. Like, half the time we don't know if we're talking to you or the Shane bot that you create. And so, like, I don't know, you're like tinkerer by nature, I feel like. And like, I always joke that. Alex, I don't know if I told you this, but Shane truly sometimes will tell me about AI products before I've heard of them. And it's like my, my job. But anyway, I, I do think that, like, listen, I think that you, you, you guys talked about it for professional stuff. I think about this for personal stuff, too.

Well, this is, I was just going to say this. This is the most important distinction on this note, with Shane and like, these things and even these. You talking about living life, Ravi, and like having new stories to tell it. They don't have to be like professional notches in the belt. They don't have to be new watermarks. And I think this is the great dilemma for anybody our age, especially when you have kids, because certainly I would hope that a big part of what you're, again, like, solving for is, is. Is being a parent, which is a freaking. So challenging. Those two things don't coexist well. Right. Like having all these professional accomplishments and I think being a super present parent. And so it is, it is an interesting stage of life.

How do you think about aging now? All right, take, take our careers out of this. How do you, how do you picture aging? How do you think about it?

I get opportunities, right? Like, obviously the opportunity to be on TV and talk about football. I get opportunities that come my way because of my career, because of my overcoming my Leg injury. And there is like this fear when these opportunities come my way that I have to say yes because there, like that, that spigot's gonna get turned off at some point, right? Like that I think it's gonna end. And so I say, I end up. I, I say yes and to way too many freaking things. And it's like, well, what's really important right now? Again, like, I've got a 14 year old, a 12 year old, and a 9 year old. My 14 year old starting high school is going to be gone in, you know, three years, three and a half years. And it's like, what, re, like what is really more important in, like, this whole idea of ego involved in this, that I need to say yes to these things because I need to feel valued, you know, professionally. And I, I don't want to. I, I, I think I have more in me. Right? But like, is that even the most important thing right now? How do I. Can, I can both? Can I do, can I do both? Which is like what I, I constantly say, well, I'll just make it work. I'll just make it work. It's just not true, though, right? Like, I've definitely, you know, it's just not.

Well, Shane, what do you think? I have lots of thoughts on this.

In terms of aging, the most important thing, the most important thing is feeling physically fit. Once your body goes, you know, Alex, you know, this, Everything else is just academic. My dad was an amazing role model in a lot of ways, but he was the, maybe the worst health role model that I had.

Okay.

And he blessed me with all the, all the good genes, you know, the high cholesterol, the glucose, the, you know, you know, you name it, all right? He, he suffered from everything. So when I go to the doctor, you know, family history, it's yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, so I know I've been dealt the hand that I've been dealt. And so, and at the end of his life, he struggled and you know, if, if you'd asked him and he was capacitated enough, he just said, I'm, I'm, I'm a burden on everybody. And I'm, I'm sorry, but like, he was at a point where he couldn't even communicate that for, for years on end. So that has been like, one of the most impactful things to watch my family around that, watch my mom around that, watch my dad around that. And like, I don't want to be that burden on anybody. Right? So I think about aging. It's, it's you know, reading Peter Tia's book right behind me.

Yeah, yeah, Outlive.

You know, it really changed my mind how I thought about health and wellness and the theory of I want to feel as good as I can for as long as I can can and have a, have a demise at the end, as short as possible. And so that, like, that's, that's my goal. Everything else is gravy. So I want to feel good for as long as I can and go quick at the end and not be a burden on anybody and enjoy what I've created for the next. Hopefully, you know, 40 years, that'd be a success.

You're such a geezer. Like, it is such the right answer, Shane. That is like, that is the right answer. However, how many people our age would have given that answer, right? Like that being grateful for your health and optimizing for your health is really more important. Because it is.

But like, dude, this is why, like, Alex, I, I think, remember, Shane started by being like, I've always been the old guy. It's like, I didn't know we had an 80 year old on our podcast, you know, rather than a 47 year old.

That's not how. That is not.

No, that's not how I feel either. Not on my brain. No. Yeah, my brain is not there.

Something happens in the mid-40s and, you know, I'd be curious to get the comments from our listenership that something just click. You're 4, 30, 46. You know something about that number when your mindset changes. And so trust me, I was once where you were and I drank a ton of beer and I, you know, worked hard and, you know, just, I'm gonna do this forever. And, you know, you gain perspective when you get a little older, boys, you gain perspective.

I'm glad we have you, Shane. I'm glad we have the elder statesman here. Alex, on your point on sort of like the stories that can be told and then not being just professional, I think that is a hugely important thing that I think about all the time. And in fact, a lot of the things that I find interesting when I hear stories now are not professional. Like war stories or war stories, so to speak. They are life stories, right? They are the things about what people are doing with their kids, what people are doing with their parents. Like, frankly, even sometimes stuff in the community, whatever it might be. But it's sort of like, I think my point is not that you have to go have professional experiences that are new and interesting. I do think you have to have life experiences that are new and interesting. Like, I. Like, one of the things, Shane, that I think you and Heidi do a good job of. It's like, you guys seem to go do fun stuff, you know, like, hey, I'm surprising Heidi and going to Oasis. Like, I think that kind of stuff is good. Like, you got to, like, go and do new things and just, like, go and you know what I'm saying, like, try stuff. And I think we think about compounding. Think about relationship with your spouse. Of all the things that are going to compound, assume we all hope to be married for 50 years plus, you know, like, well, that compounding matters. And then the thing about the kids, Alex, I'll tell you the flip of this. I think I'm, like, really present and good about being around. Right. And the other day, a couple weeks ago, I was traveling and I was gone for like, you know, a couple days. And I came back and I was feeling like, man, like, man, I missed you guys. And I. And I was talking to Shrey. I was like, hey, did you miss me? And he laughed and he's like, of course, dad. But you were only gone for like a day, you know? And, like. And instead of feeling bad, I was actually, like, pretty happy. Right? Which is like, dude, like, all these things sometimes we go through in our heads on, like, you know what? Oh, I gotta be president. I gotta be around. Like, it's just like, he was just like, I saw you. I saw you that morning. You, like, left in the evening. And, like, I don't see you in the evening sometimes anyway, because, like, I have soccer or you have a dinner or whatever, right? Then you were gone the next day. And then you came back, like, and you, like, got back in time for our flag football game. Like, yeah, like, of course I missed you. But, like, it was just. Wasn't that big of a deal. And I think that was, like, good and freeing for me too. Which is like, being present doesn't mean being ever present, you know, or omnipresent. It means, like, being available. And that was like a. I think about that for you because I think some of this stuff you end up having to do is travel oriented.

Yes.

You know, and I think that, like, those decisions are their own things. But, like, it was helpful for me because I'm so anti travel that, like, honestly, his reaction of just like, chill out, dad, was actually pretty, like, good for me.

Anybody. I mean, obviously anybody that travels, that has kids, like, the. The feeling of disconnection.

Yeah.

You know, and that you're Missing out in the fomo, like, it's. It can be a lot, for sure. I definitely battle it at times, like when. When the travel mounts, you know, but.

That'S why I, like. Like, for instance, Shane, even before you were coaching, the idea of, like, I don't travel during basketball season, I thought that was, like, a good way to deal with it. Of, like, it's not that you don't travel. It's not that you do it. Don't do a bunch of stuff. You have, like, a certain rule that you follow for some period of time. And I actually liked that a lot because all of a sudden it's like. It's like the Clay Christensen thing. It's easier to follow a rule 100% of the time than 98% of the time. It's just an easier answer. Like, oh, I just don't go during that period.

Yeah.

You know, and so there. There are, like, sustainable. That, to me, is part of, like, the sustainable urgency for home. It's like, look, I'm not gonna not go ever. But, you know, for this period of time, I'm. I'm kind of homebound. I think that's, you know, interesting. I like that.

Wise. It's wise. Why didn't you. I do remember you just went and saw Oasis. Why the. Did you not use them as your music example? I mean, it would have been a thousand times better because I don't know.

If people have, you know, the great music tastes of Oasis. And so I didn't want to say, what's the story, Morning Glory out there?

Nine percent of our listeners, I bet. No, Oasis know that album, which was phenomenal and are familiar with it. And then obviously, yeah, then they've kind of gone into.

Your point is Chain is like, oh, yeah, from 70 to 76. Elton John. This dude was born in 1978. Like, and he's just, like. Just, like, talking about it as if it was like, you know him like, in the living room on the record player. He wasn't even alive. What are we talking about next?

Next show, we should just talk about imperial periods.

Okay.

I want to see what you guys come up with. True imperial periods of greatness, creative creativity and creation.

I think the new concept. I do like that. I do like the concept of the imperial period.

This idea of, like, steady growth, compounding growth and how sustainable that is and actually the power of it. Right. And, like, that mindset. Because there is this, like, sense of urgency, I think, for all of us to get tricked into, like, we've. We need to have this imperial period, like, we need to be in that moment. We need to be like, because. Because of the peak value in it. Does that make sense? But like, that's not actually what you should be solving for, right? Like, that, that is, that is like other people's opinion. What you should really be solving for is this like, consistent growth, sustainable growth. And like. But for me, I guess as like, I'm like turning this inward, it is like the patience to have that.

I was thinking of two things when you were talking. One, I think is actually like the genius of Coach K's next play. Because it's not like, next, next, next, next, next play. It's not yesterday's play. It's just like, just one play. Just like, just go and have the good next play, right? Like, that's the thing. And if you do think about that, that is about consistent growth. That is about like, you know, smaller goals. It really is like, just kind of. That's the thing, right? Just like the next play should be a good one. And it's just so much more approachable. I think, like, I think about this for you, Shane, of like, you waking up in the morning and doing like, your breathing or journaling or the things that you can do. It's like a more approachable, like, okay, I'm going to do this tomorrow, you know, and then after that I'm gonna like, figure out the next day. But it like, I, I think that is one big thing. The second thing, Alex, I was thinking about your point of, like, you know, all of us that take certain opportunities that we're not sure we want just because they feel like they're fleeting, right? And it's like, oh, God, what if they're not available later? There are some people that I've met and I don't think this is a typical thing, but there are some people I've met who are more mentally peaceful on that because they have some belief that they can, like, create their own relevance and opportunities when they want. And I guess, like, one thing I would say for you is, like, it strikes me that the things that people want to talk to you about are stuff that is evergreen, same way Shane was talking about in nature. And so again, it's easy to be sanguine about someone else's stuff, right? But I do think that, like, I don't think that the opportunities you have are fleeting. I think they would get, like, recreated whenever you want. And I, I find this too. I. I worry that the opportunities I get are fleeting. Oh, my God. What if, you know, it's because I'm at this age and this, you know, professional situation, like, you know, if I don't do it now, when will it be available? But I. I admire sometimes the people, and I think they're correct when they sort of, like, have the view of, like, if I need to create these opportunities again, I can. There's. There's a lot fewer, like, once in a lifetime things.

For sure. Yeah. Probably more at peace with, like, listen, another opportunity will come.

Yes.

You know, and it's like, not this FOMO where it's like, what. What if I don't take this meeting? What if this is the one totally, you know, opportunity that I turned down and it was going to be something, you know, kind of thing. Totally.

Yeah. And you like it. Never advise any of our kids to feel that way.

You know, easier to say, harder to execute.

For sure. I think one of the biggest things about aging that I think is a good thing. And this is, you know, the geezer's paradox, Alex, that you mentioned many, many, many episodes ago.

Right.

But it's sort of like getting into, like, the old person mindset sooner about, like, only caring about what actually matters. Right.

Like, friend Shane here. Yeah.

I mean, Shane is really onto, like, the only thing that matters is your health and not being a burden. I mean, I'm not sure I'm there, but, like, what I would say is, like, ideally, like, caring more about the opinions of fewer people. You know, that feels like a good thing that comes with aging.

Right.

Of, like, okay, whose opinion do I care about? I care about my own opinion of myself, and I care about a very select few people's opinions. You know, I think that is, like, a good thing that comes along with aging is, like, good perspective on whose opinion should you care about.

Totally. Yeah. Hell, yes. Hell, yes.

Yeah.

You spend less time worrying about what you say you just said.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You just toss out examples that, you know, your friends can make fun of, like, no problem.

You know, just don't give a. I don't. I really don't know.

No, I. I know. I know that. I know. The only thing is, it's funny, Shane, because, like, in the time I've known you, and I think this speaks to your. Like, you've always been, like, the mature one. You've sort of always seemed a little bit more like. Like that than, I think, a lot of other people. And maybe that's just on a relative basis. You've always seemed like you're a little bit more mature. You Know what I'm saying? Like, and so it might not be that you're the same as you are now, but I've always observed you to, like, kind of just say whatever you say, you know? Like, it doesn't feel new to me that you're like, that.

Well, you know, I was lucky to play in the Twitter era, so there's nothing that you guys can say to me that I haven't heard on. On Twitter already and. Or X whatever they call it now. And so you develop a. A thick skin being a professional athlete, especially these days. And so authenticity is much more important. And that's the lesson I had to learn late. Authenticity is much more important than. Than the opinions of others.

I do think another thing happens as you get older is you realize that there are some cliches that are like cliches for a reason, because they're just right. They're just correct. And there are things that you used to hear and be like, ugh, come on. That's just the old folks saying it, but they just turn out to be true. The most important decision is the person you decide to marry. You intellectually know that, but then it actually mathematically ends up being true. Of. Think about how much time you spend with this person, how much influence they have on you. Oh, like, professionally, like, you gotta do all this stuff, but, like, what really matters is the friends you make along the way. You hear that and you're just like, wow. And then later you're like, oh, wait, that's true. You know, like, there's, like, all these things that turn out to be true that, like, sound so ridiculous, you know, Like, Alex, I don't know, whenever we spend time with George Roberts, like, he'll always be like, yeah, the only thing that really matters is the people that you surround yourself with. And your first reaction when you hear that as a young person is like, yeah, but you're so successful already. Like, you know, Exactly. You know, and then later you're like, oh, wait, no, he's right.