At The Helm - [Glue Guys, EP.1]

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Welcome to Glue Guys. We're your hosts Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta.

And Alex Smith and we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

Hello and welcome to the first episode of Glue Guys. We are so excited to be doing this and we hope you enjoy listening as much as we enjoy making it. We name this podcast Glue Guys because we are inspired by people who are great teammates and who make their teams win generally. Each episode is going to tackle a theme. We're going to kick off with leadership, sharing the stories of great coaches we've all been lucky enough to have. We'll talk about the seriousness and sometimes the silliness that is part of leading others to victory. The other two episodes in the feed are going to focus on our teammates and on communication and you can expect conversations about resilience, mindset, relentlessness and some amazing guests over the coming weeks. We hope you enjoy our first episode of Glue Guys talking about what makes a great coach today. Ah.

Great players. Yeah, exactly. No lie. No lie. Like this is. It was like so illuminating. I've had we can get into the coaches I played for but an embarrassment of hall of Fame, coaches, all right? And maybe the most sage that I learned from was actually, you know, the walking encyclopedia of basketball, Hubie Brown, okay, came in, took over Memphis Grizzlies team that won 23 games a year before and transformed us into a playoff team. And so Hubie, for those who don't follow basketball, has forgotten more about basketball than all of us know combined. I mean, the guy is just. He's still on TV. He's 90 years old, and it's rock and roll. He's. He's like a grandpa to me. He's the closest thing to ever had to a grandpa. And his little nuggets of wisdom were unbelievable and probably the greatest clinician in the game of basketball the world has ever seen. So people will come around the world to hear Hubie talk and draw plays and just learn, you know, from the Yoda of basketball. And he started every clinic with the same lesson. All right? So he'd be at the chalkboard or the overhead projector, and he'd walk up there, and he, you know, he's from, you know, Jersey City, so you got that a gravely voice, you know, the raspy New York Jersey accent. He said, y', all, I'm gonna teach you the most important lesson that I could ever teach you about basketball. And so all the coaches were like, oh, my gosh. The first thing. Okay, you know, write this down. So all the coaches. And he goes to the chalkboard. Hubie says, if you do not have good players, you will not win. Is that. Stay with me. I'm gonna say it again. The most important thing I'll say today is, if you do not have good players, you will not win. And I can teach you everything I know about basketball, every play, every situation, but if you don't have the horses to go out and execute, it doesn't matter. And so never forget that. So I never heard a coach ever, ever say that in all the years I played basketball. And so, you know, it made me feel good as a player. But, you know, it's. It shines a light on, like, one of the common themes between all my hall of Fame coaches. Huge egos, but huge humility as well, to always know that it was collaborative.

Don't you think there's some psychology there?

Totally, dude. I was literally thinking the same thing.

Flipping the accountability back to the players, right? Like, as the coach or, like, you know, I don't know, you know, or challenging the players even a little psychologically. Like, you know, listen, we can drop the greatest plays, but unless you guys. You Know, go make this happen. And that's why I think, you know, this whole, I mean obviously there's, there's so many things that go into making a great coach. And no doubt, like, I think the amazing thing about sports is more often than not, Shane, you tell me wrong. Like every team's got great players, right? Like every team's got amazingly talented guys. You know, football no different. Like the parity is like unbelievable week to week. And so I actually think it makes the coaching like that's the difference maker a lot of times at the NFL side, right? Like, especially because they have so much input in the week to week game plans, the chess match, the psychology of your team when they take the field, especially only like once a week. And certainly all the great coaches I've played for have been like master psychologists, I think.

But one thing that's cool about that too though is I, I like it's the psychologist. But it's also like you said, Shane, it makes you feel good as a player, which is like this guy knows that it's about us, right? But he's also creating more accountability right in that moment. But he's, and then he also makes it attractive if you're a good player to go play for him because you're like, oh, Hubie understands that, you know, the players have got to do this. And I think what it, it attracts is like maybe the great best coaches are also good recruiters at some level of like, okay, you know, these people want to come. I get good people that want to come be a part of this, you know, 100%.

You could spend the rest of your life reading leadership books, right? And all the different styles and just any walk of life, right? There have been people that have distinguished themselves as people who can get a group of other people to follow in on a common mission and accomplish something of note, right? And that's really the basic tenets of, of leadership. And it's something everyone is searching for. And I do a lot of corporate speaking and you know, it's funny that what I always lead off with is that we are a leadership starved world. Okay? So you know, Google knows what the, what the pulse of the world is, right? Because they know what we're searching for. And you know, ever since they started out, they have what's called the Google score and they sign a letter that's on a scale of 1 to 100 of how popular that term is for any given period. And the term leadership, since the start of this Google algorithm tracking scale has never been lower than a 90.

Really?

Yeah. I mean, if you look at other words, it may go up and down. Kelly Clarkson, you name it, whatever.

Shane's showing his age here. Alex, reference.

Know exactly in and out of our consciousness. All right? But the one thing, the one thing that we are obsessed about is leadership. Do we have it? What's it look like? How do I get it? How do I keep it? You know, is this person who I'm following, like the person I really want to follow, right? What are the alternatives? And so, you know, consequently, I also talk about the term teammate ship. All right? The word teammate has less than a one Google score.

Really?

Yeah, it's never had more than a one Google value in the scale. While, you know, leadership is around 90. Teammate is 1. So that's how that shows you how obsessed we are about coaches and leaders and, you know, who's leading the pack here. And I find that like a mind.

Blowing statistic with this on the, on the pro sports side that really makes it unique, right? Like you could, you could be a founder of a business and you're flying under the radar, right? And you. And no one even knows about you. And you can take years. Every company's on its own timeline, right? Like some, some blow up fast. Some can take five, 10 years. You know, like, you know, the James Dyson 14 years he takes to like, to finally build that thing right? You don't get that in team sports. No owner's given a guy 14 years to just. I don't care how resilient you are. And gritty, like, you're just not getting it right? Like you, you have to. It's a win now deal. And so I think all of that combined, you know, can you get it done? And I just, I think there's so many parallels that we can take from some of these great team sport pro coaches that can like translate to all of our lives on so many levels. And like, there's still things that I carry with me I find as a parent that I'm like, I'm, I'm using these quotes like I'm using Jim Harbisms on my son, you know, like that's, I use Andy Reid, like on the NFL side. The one thing that really, I think is really interesting and we talk about it every single year, like at the end of the year when they call it, what is it, Black Monday, when all the head coaches get fired, right? And there's always like, you know, five to seven of them and you got all these job openings and it's who's going to get hired. And it's always the cream of the crop as far as, like, who's the hottest offensive and defensive coordinators. But that, that candidate pool, right, like, what it takes to be a great offensive defensive coordinator has nothing to do with what it takes to be a great head coach. Absolutely nothing like the things we're going to talk about that make great head coaches. It has very little to do with, like, how gifted of an X's and O's guy you were as an offensive coordinator or a D coordinator. Right? Like, that's not what it takes. The criteria for both aren't even close to the same thing. And there is no, on the NFL side, like, there's no great evaluator for the future great head coaches. Like, Dan Campbell sits and has been sitting there interviewing for head coaching jobs and can't get one because he looks like, you know, he's this big giant, strong, you know, goober that, like, he's not, he never was a coordinator, so nobody hires him. And finally, the Detroit Lions, like, recognize, you know, and take a, take a chance on him and look at him like, this guy's absolutely a bonafide, like, phenomenal head coach.

Thankfully. Thankfully, my Lions realize they, they gotta need a leader, someone to inspire them, you know. So, like, what you just described, Alex, is what Ravi does every single day. Right? And so, you know, love to hear your perspective about, you know, you are coming across the most talented founders who have an unbelievable idea. And as good as those ideas are, like, you're worried about, can the people who, you know, work under this person, will they follow her? Will they follow him? Right. I mean, that's the exact same thing. It does a great officer coordinator. Does a great defensive coordinator make a great head coach? Make a great leader?

Yeah, I mean, like what you guys just said. So I'm just like, writing things down. The beginning of, like, this tension of huge ego with huge humility. Pretty interesting. Like, we definitely got to go into that, the psychologist huge thing. And then the difference of, like, being technically sound versus actually being somebody that can lead. Like, this is all good shit. And I, I, that is exactly what I was thinking about, like, for the, like, the founder analogy. So it's interesting. So I actually go back to a sports analogy when I think about founders, which is this story that Shane, I'm sure you and I have talked about. I don't know, Alex, you and I have talked about, but apparently Kobe, when he was alive, you know, he wasn't yet a captain, but he came back after a summer and went to Phil Jackson and said, hey, I worked out all summer. I'm playing the best basketball of my life. I'm ready to be a captain. I'm ready to lead. And apparently Phil Jackson immediately said back without missing a beat, but nobody wants to follow you. And it was just like, such an incredible response, right? Of like, you don't make yourself the leader. The people make you the leader. Like, people wanting to follow you makes you the leader. So you go back to the founder thing.

Shane.

Right? If you're thinking about, like, what can make somebody a good coach or leader, one thing is they have to have an idea that's worth chasing. Like, that is table sticks. They have to have some vision for the world, some place that they're going that is inspirational for people that are really good. They gotta have that, and if they don't have that, we can't do it. But in addition to that, they have to be able to attract people that frankly, like, it's almost irrational for them to go and chase them, you know what I'm saying? Because the people that they need have tons of other options and they're never looking for jobs. Think about it. In our world, it's interesting, right? Anybody who's any good is probably recognized at the place they're working at, and they're probably treated pretty well. So all of a sudden they got to make an irrational decision to go and follow somebody who's unknown and based on an idea. Well, how do they get them to follow them? They have to be super compelling, they have to be super inspiring. They have to earn it in some way. And so the way it's interesting, some of them earn it in different ways, you know, like, there are some people that earn the followership in the tech world through just straight, like, substance. Like, I mean, substance on, like, content. Like, they know something. They can go toe to toe on the topic with the best people. And so I'm thinking of someone like Patrick Collison at Strike. Like, he's just. He's just so smart that people really feel like they learn, and he can engage quickly on pretty much anything. But then you take somebody else, like Brian Chesky at Airbnb. Brian Chesky is amazing, right? But he's actually just an incredible, like, in addition to being really smart, incredible storyteller, and incredibly inspirational in the moment. Like, he sits down with people the first day when they join an Airbnb and be like, if you died in a year, would this be the way you'd Want to spend the next year or the last year of your life? I mean, that's like a pretty bold question to ask somebody. And the answer for most people on most things like, fuck no, man, I gotta go and do X, Y and Z. But he like sets the bar really high. So I guess for me, when I think about it, for what you just said, Shane, I am, a lot of times I'm looking at a founder. I just try to ask myself, would I want to go work for them? Not that I'm a perfect example, but would I do something crazy and go work for them? Because that to me is the evidence of like what I call my best friend and be like, you got to go do this. Right? Because if you're not willing to do that, then it's actually hard to believe that they're going to be able to recruit great people.

Do you guys think, Shane, tell me if you're wrong. Like, I feel like every great head coach I've been around the team very much takes on their personality. And I think this Ravi, that's probably the, the same on the business side as well.

For sure.

Like the things I've read, you know, about Steve Jobs and you know, Bezos and stuff like that. But, and I, and I do.

Well, just to interrupt you, did you think about it like this for Apple? You're so right because Apple is ambitious, ferocious and meticulous. Right? That's Jobs. It is him. Like, it is perfectly him.

Andy Reid, no doubt like the, the number one thing he says, like fear nothing, attack everything. That's like his number one slogan. And I think within that though, Andy, and I don't know if I, I, I don't know if this shines through the media and if people think this but like Andy like is this has this phenomenal sense of humor and he like loves being around the guys and cracking jokes and giving nicknames and like making fun of people and making fun of himself and that, that shines through on his players. Like, I think the reason you see like Patrick and Kelsey like smiling while they play on the field is because like Andy is like you come over at a TV timeout and Andy's gonna crack a joke during a TV timeout, like on the sideline when, you know, everybody's nervous and you know, tightened up and Andy's over there like in a big moment and he's going to crack.

A joke, is an off color joke or you know, like a appropriate joke. Can you share this with, with our listeners?

He'd be a little bit of everything. Yeah, like, you know, he, he'd tell you to, to not be, you know, don't be, don't be scared. And he would like always, his favorite one is like, we'd be talking about plays, you know, hey, it's third and three. What are we going to do? Or like, you know, coordinators talking about the four plays that we might run. And everybody's kind of like voicing their opinion. And Andy would like just tap you on the arm and be like, hey, when in doubt, go deep. Like, that's like, he would just like in the middle of. You're like, come on, man. Like, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to run a play here. And he just like, I think that all feeds through, right? He constantly talks about letting your personality show, right? And I think those things, like you watch, you watch the Chiefs play, like, and they do. They got personality, right? They have they. And he lets them do that. That's just. And it's a different style, right? That's different than the Patriot way. Like, very different, you know, or it's like they want the, the machine. And it was no different. Again, like car Bob Urban. Like, those teams very much embodied those, those personalities. Like the one I love too. The quick story here, like Jim Harbaugh in the sports world, I don't know if it's the same in basketball, Shane, like when you would travel, you had to dress up in suits, right? Like, that was like. And it would always be like the, the thing everybody says, like, it's a business trip. Hey, it's this business trip, right? And I like never. I always thought that was funny. Like, I'm like, we play football, right? And when, especially in San Francisco, there's a lot of travel because there's only so many teams like west of the Mississippi. And so it's a lot of miles, a lot of times you're leaving two days before. You only play once a week. You've got literally some of the biggest human beings on the planet, guys. Six, seven, 350 pounds.

Hey.

And let's. We're gonna go on a five hour plane flight. Let's stick this guy in a suit, right? Like, it just made no sense. And so Jim totally did banished that rule. He's like, this is stupid. Like, this is. And I don't think. And he doesn't think of himself like that. I mean, this Guy played for 15 years. So he went in this whole spiel, he bought every single guy on the team a blue collar shirt. So literally a Blue collar shirt. And I didn't even know the history of the whole white collar, blue collar thing. So this was like a mechanic shirt, like a short sleeve mechanic shirt pocket. And it had a patch.

That's awesome.

Pocket. And it put. And he got everybody's name done and he saw every single person on the team had their blue collar shirt. And it's also because, like, that's what Jim is, right? Jim's blue collar. And he wanted his team to be like that, like that kind of mindset. And so we, that's what we traveled in. And it was amazing. Jeans and a blue collar shirt. And like you. It was so nice to like, that's so good. That's such a little stupid thing. But it actually, like, I liked it. Like, I felt gritty. Like, I'd have a hat on my blue collar shirt. Like, man, we're going to work. And it was such a better mindset for me than getting all dressed up to the nines to get on a freaking plane. Like, it just felt so stupid. And anyway, like, there's little things like that that I think head coaches that can do. And I know it may not seem like much, but it does, it really does, I think, go a long way to like the personality of a team or the, you know, organization.

Sure.

Well, Alex, you know, actually I disagree with your. Your point on the teams. Take the personality of the coach. This was a big Coach K thing. People always ask me what, you know, what made Coach K so great. And he going back to the other point about humility, look, he approached every year with a growth mindset and he realized, like, look, what worked last year may not work this year. Right. And so his, his gift and his blessing was his malleability to go into every year, every August and to understand that, okay, well, I had some seniors that graduated. I have some freshmen I have to incorporate. So, like, the personality of this team is different and I have to coach you differently. Right? It's not one size fit. All this is what we do now. There was. There were certain, you know, non negotiables every year, right? And. But they're very simple. People think like Duke basketball was like, super disciplined. And we, you know, we had very, very few rules. And on the first day of practice, coach cases, we have very few rules, guys, okay? These are the non negotiables, right? We always look each other in the eye when we talk to each other. Right. We don't make excuses and we don't lie to each other. Right? That's it. Those are the rules. Those are the rules. Now everything else is negotiable. And we talked about, like, what, what are our shared values and how do we want this year to go and yada, yada, yada. But like, those were the three constant themes from year to year. Because he knew, like, every team is different. There were teams like when I was a, a junior, super, super young someone, Carlos Boozer, Mike Dunleavy, J. Will, Casey Sanders were all freshmen and we had no upperclassmen besides Chris Carwell, Nate James, myself, Maddie Christensen, J.D. simpson. So we were super, super young. And he knew he couldn't just like run us through the, the mixer. Right? That same team that came back next year when I was a senior. And we. And those guys have been through a year of college basketball. Yeah, he coached us way, way, way harder, right? But that was his genius. He understood and was able to change year to year. And you know, you know, when I think of great coaches, I think of they all have three things. And these are all the hall of Fame attributes that every hall of Fame coach I share. And that's integrity, competency and benevolence. All right? I think this is true for any great leader. All right? Integrity. Do you say what you. What do you do what you say you'll do, right? And there's no gray area, all right? Coach K said like, I'm not, I'm not going to treat each one of you equally, but I will treat you fairly. And he lived by that. Right? And so, you know, the walk on. All right. You know, Andy Borman, my guy, was not treated the same. Well, same way that Jay Will, you know, two time All American was. But they were both treated fairly and he never deviated. And that just gives you amazing credibility, you know, competency, right? Athletes, I think people in general are really good at sniffing the bullshit meter, right? They know when something is arriving. And so they're always judging a plan or what someone's saying and leadership. I don't know about this, dude. I don't know. I don't know about this, lady. I don't know. They may not have the answer, but they know what is probably not going to work, right? And where the competency, competency comes in is like in the highest stressful situation, the player is like, I don't know. When they look over to the coach, they better have a great plan, right? So Eric, I think, Eric Spoelstrom, right? We're down three, two to Boston. Going to Boston, Game six, Eastern Conference finals. If we lose that game, everyone has A new address next year, they're going to blow up the team, trade everybody. And because SPO had the competency, we knew he knew his. His shit, all right? And you can talk about everything else about Pat Riley, but SPO did the work. And we all knew when he put something on the board, it was vetted, it was thought about, and we trusted it. He earned that from us because he showed consistent competency and benevolence. Like, look, we're all trying to win, right? And you know the expression, you catch more bees with honey than vinegar? Yeah, honey shit where I'm from. But, you know, are you someone you want to play with? The greatest coach I ever played for in terms of benevolence was Rick Adelman, hall of Fame coach. Played, you know, played in the league. And I never played for a coach. I never thought this was possible. He gave us ultimate ownership whenever we won. It was always we won. It was, you know, guys, this is your team. What do you want out of this experience? You know, he was leading it, but it was. It was. It was amazing ownership. And so, like, those three things of integrity, competency, and benevolence, when you have those all come together, man, I'll follow you over a wall, right? And that's. That's the secret sauce, I think, for leaders and a hallmark of any great hall of Fame coach.

Yeah. See, I think it's interesting. This is a place where I do think that, like, things translate a lot in sports and business. Like, I don't. I don't actually think. I don't really think it's that different at all. Like. Well, I'll tell you one thing I think is a death knell for a coach or a leader in anywhere, which is being scared. People can tell when you are scared. They can tell when you are nervous. And nervousness is different than fear. But like, the. When. When you're. When. When your nervousness or fear comes out, and that's where you're coming from, from a place of that with your team. The team just absolutely is like, I gotta. I'm not dealing with this. And I think that that happens. And it's hard. You think about it. You think about it. For founders, it's hard not to be scared sometimes. This is your whole life. You've asked all your friends and family to come and support you. And so. But, like, that's true for founders, true for investors. It's true for anybody. So I look at, like, you know, I've been lucky, too, in my world, right? Like, I worked For Henry Kravis and George Roberts, Douglioni, Mike Moritz, like, you know, these people are fucking real leaders. But one thing about them is like, they were never. They. You never seem scared, and even when it's really daunting. And I would think about that a lot when I was, you know, feeling like I was leading. You know, it's like I. These. And I think that make you. You're thinking about the team more than you're thinking about yourself. That's where I think the lack of being scared shows up. Because you're like. It's almost like being a dad. Like, I gotta. I gotta be there for this person, you know? So that's one thing I think there's a huge deal is like, you cannot be. Let your fear infiltrate the team. You gotta be thinking about them because no matter whatever you're feeling, they're feeling something worse.

I agree with you. Robbie, real quick. I think they choose not to live in it, though. I think they. The real leaders recognize it, but they. They choose to live on the other side.

I don't know this, but I bet you he would call Henry and tell him, because they're first cousins, they've known each other forever. And I bet you there was someone he could talk to about it. But I also believe that he combined it with the. Alex, some of the stuff you talked about before of like, you know what? Eff it, if this goes down, it's fine. You know what? Like, we're going to be okay. And I think that those guys having, like, started it the way they started it and kind of come through what they came through, I think that they, like, yeah, they didn't live in the fear. And it's not that it doesn't exist. Everyone gets scared. I was scared when Amazon bought Whole Foods. I was terrified. Right, right. Like, but then you. What are you going to do? You're going to stand up in front of 500 people and be like, man, I'm really scared, you know, like, no, you got to be like, we're going to win, you know, like, and we're going to figure it out and we're going to do it together and you, like, turn it into something. So I think that's a big deal. The other thing that I think is a big deal is like, honestly, man, the humility to be able to give credit is so ridiculously valuable to get the best people to come and want to play with you and come and want to be on your team, like, a fair amount of the reason, or like a Huge amount of the reason that I've been ever any good at coaching or leading is because good people like working with me. And that is because they deserve the credit. And I actually think the same thing. I learned that from Henry and George. The reason that they get people to come and be a part of their team is they're always giving credit.

You know.

Who do you think built the Asia business at kkr? Joe Bay. You guys, Henry and George up job is a co CEO now, but even when he was a young guy, they would be like, oh, Joe Bay did it. Well, I mean they had something to do with it, right? And then the same thing. Like, I think that that's a big deal. Very humble on like, but they're humble and strategic, you know, of like, this is going to help us. And then the last thing is I do think they like keep the main thing. The main thing. Like what I mean by that is like one thing Moritz used to say at Sequoia is like, we need to remember that the enemy is outside the building, okay? Like, hey guys, no matter what's going on here, we're on the same team. We're trying to make great investments. We're not fighting against each other, we're fighting against people outside. And I think like in investment businesses, they fail. And companies, they fail because of internal stuff more so than they fail because of external stuff. There's this saying that more companies die of suicide than homicide. You know, it's not the competitor that does it, it's that they fall apart. The teams fall apart. And I think that the coaches, they remember, they keep you focused on an external thing. And then I think that that stuff goes a long way. Alex, I will tell you, the clothing anecdote you gave it like, gave me goosebumps because I'm thinking of you guys in your blue collar outfits with your names on there with your hats and it's like, yeah, man, we're living it. Like, then you feel Shane talks about this, but like the best, the cohesive team. Shane, like the shared eliteness, you know, wearing the same thing. Like that blue collar shirt with the name on it. I don't know if it's shared eliteness, but it's like a shared workmanship. Like, yeah, like we're, you know, that that's us, you know, that's our culture.

Alex, like, I've always been fascinated by like how large football teams are, okay. And you're a head coach. Okay. And you probably got that job because you're a crack defensive coordinator or offensive Coordinator, what, whatever. And all of a sudden you have 53. You have know men who have very, very different skill sets and different backgrounds. Different backgrounds. You have a coaching staff. All right. I don't even know how many coaches are on, on a staff. Like 20, 30. You have, you have trainers, you have support staff, you have like, I mean you are the CEO of a, of a, of a small company in a very visible industry and you got to perform. And, and I'm just fascinated to understand like, what is that dynamic? Like I wouldn't think that the coach knows everybody's name. There's not that many people. But like, like walk us through like what a head coach thinks about.

Yeah, I mean I honestly, I think you hit on it. And you 53 guys on the roster, you count. I mean the practice squad now is up to like 20. You got guys in IR. I mean this is a, you're right. Like it's a, it's a hundred man roster. And when you go travel, the support staff is enormous. Mean, the coaching staff, the training staff, the equipment staff, right? Like it is, I mean it's a little mobile city when we kind of, we go take over a hotel and like it's, it's a big production, it's a lot of operations. And I think the head coach, again, they have sole control over a lot of this stuff, right? Like the, the scheduling, the travel, like all these little decisions that again, coordinators never had to make that a head coach gets inundated with. Right. And a lot of them again, I think have very little to do with actual like game day, winning and losing. And I think that's one of the great jobs of the head coach and, or any leader, I think is eliminating distractions, right? For his team, for his unit. Like, and I think it is. Rev, you said it. Keep the main thing, the main thing, like that's it. And you, you do that as a head coach or leader, I think through your actions most of all, right. Like your actions illustrate priority, right? Like, to the team more than your words, right. Like that's what it's about. And I think the one thing that I think all of them have to have that we haven't like touched on. And you're totally right. Of course, like you could be the best leader in the world and if you're not competent at your job, like you, of course, like you don't have a chance. Like that's just baseline, you know, like you have to like, know your stuff. But I think within that there has to be a level of obsession, I think that all great leaders have and all head coaches have. Like, you, you can't dabble in this. Like, this is something that on a personal level, most these people are probably a little out of whack, you know, and the reality is a lot of out of whack, you know, like again, like they, they are, they're just obsessed with what they do. They are obsessed with the challenge of it. Like, I know this for a fact. Like Andy Reid wins a Super Bowl. Like, he turns on the game tape. Like, all he sees are the 10 plays that went wrong that he, that he screwed up, right? Like, that's all he sees. It just, he doesn't know any other way. Like, and it's just this daily pursuit and he'll never get to what he, where he wants to go. But like that's just, he likes, he likes that, that lifestyle, right? It just, it's an obsession for him. I mean, Jim Harbaugh, he would tell us this, like this was his life plan since he was a kid. Play football for as long as he could, then coach football for as long as he could and then die. That was his life plan, okay? That's his life plan. I mean, this guy, when the Chargers hired him, he lived in, he, he drove his RV out and he lived in an RV like next to the facility, right? Like, that's like, he just is, it's different. And I, and I do mean. And I think that difference, you need to be an outlier. And the blue collar was an example of that. And I only use that because like everybody wears suits and they, and you just do it because it's like, well, everybody does it. So every head coach that gets hired, like, well, the rest of the league's doing this, so I best. I guess we better do it. Meanwhile, it has absolutely nothing to do with football, right? Like, so it was again, it's such a little thing. And like I love now, right, like every team does this. They all have social media. So they all take the shots of the team traveling, right? And like, guys love to get all dressed up and you see them taking their shots. They know the cameras on them as they're walking out on the tarmac, like, and I'm like, what, what the hell are we doing? Like, this guy's like, you know, this guy's a 350 pound D tackle. Like, but like, I don't know, it just is so funny to me. And the little thing with the shirts, if you should have seen guys faces, man, when you put on that blue shirt and you go walk the tarmac like, you're not a model. No, you. You're like, you got game face on, man. You're ready to roll. Like, I just.

I'm a brand.

And that's like, Jim, like, I don't want businessmen. I want football players. You know, like, that's not why we're here. Like, you keep that stuff outside. Like, you know, like, that's not. And certainly it's a reality, but I think you fight it, you know, as a head coach. But again, I. To come back, I just think they're like, there is a level of obsession that all these guys have to have. And again, like, I think that can have a negative term, but it really shouldn't. Like, you know, you need to have it. If I'm a GM and I'm looking for a head coach, I want the guy that, like, this means more to him than anything else.

What would you interview for, Alex? Okay, let's make it real. You're a gm, okay? Knowing everything, you know, and I get that, like, it's not well understood, but you just went through a good set of stuff. It's not the X's and O's, not the coordinator. It's obsession. What are you doing? If you're a GM and you're trying to interview for a head coach, what's your spec other than obsession?

There has to be a plan, right? And so Shane said it, like, whether or not, you know, again, like, I. I just find this really interesting. Andy Reid, Jim Harbaugh, and Urban Meyer were never an offensive coordinator. Not all. None of them. None of them were offensive coordinators ever. And hands down, they all call plays as head coaches, though Andy does. No.

And.

And Jim and Urban definitely not. But he. He knows, he knows this stuff. But those guys definitely, like, Andy, like, on the defensive side has absolutely nothing. He doesn't want any part of that, you know, but he can. He can identify good head coach, I mean, defensive coordinators, and he can manage the staff. Right. Like, there's different ways to do it. And I think still knows what he wants his defense to look like from an identity standpoint. Right. As a head coach. I mean, I think the characteristics he wants him to have, not getting into the minutiae of it. So the plan is important, right? I. I mean, I, I think, like, that. And that would be like, the idea. Right, Ravi? Like. And like, you got it or the market. But then again, I do think it's. It's a little deeper than that. Right. And I Don't know how you get to that in an interview. I've never done that. But, like, how do you get to, like, what's it about, like, Jim again, to go back to him, like, his childhood greatly affected who he is. He's the son of a. Son of a coach. He moved around his entire life, like, all these college towns. He like. Like, it's all he's ever known. Right. And I do think that's at the core of he is. And so, like, how do you get to that in an interview?

Well, it's just so funny you asked this, so. And Shane, we gotta hear on your stuff, because Douglioni is the best interviewer I've ever seen in my life. Okay. Douglioni used to ran Sequoia for a long time. Best interview I've ever seen in my life. And Mike Moritz right there with him also ran Sequoia. Same thing those guys do. Those guys who go at the beginning, they're asking you about your childhood when, you know, the first time I interviewed with Mike Moritz, he was on the board of Instacart. When I interviewed with him, he asked me 10 minutes of are you smart questions? Minute 11, what's your relationship like with your parents? And I was like, what? I mean, I've been interviewed a bunch of times. Never, not once. And then an hour and a half of, like, from the beginning, what do you think you're a brother. What is something you haven't told other people that you think about that? And all of a sudden, I started saying things I never said before. I'd never been to therapy, right? So all of a sudden I'm saying things. I'm like, oh, my gosh. I didn't even know. I knew that I didn't know. I thought that, you know, And I realized how big of a role my brother played. My brother's three years older than me and was perfect growing up. Perfect, right? And always was, compared to him. Always, always worse than him. You know, even on. Even on things like, my brother's, like, much better looking than I am. Like, just everything he was better at, and everybody liked him better.

For the record, he is much better. He's way better looking.

Way better looking.

That's what I'm saying. Which is, like, almost to the point where people kind of look at us and they're like, I know you guys are brothers, you know, but, like, man, like, he really got all the good features, like, just so clear. So anyway, but like, in that conversation with Mike, I actually realized how big of an Influence my brother has played of just, like, being nasty, competitive for me comes a lot from, like, being the little brother and, like, always having somebody who everyone liked better. And I'm like, man, I gotta. I gotta do something about this. But my point is going back to, like, how do they do it? Alex? I literally asked Mike and Doug this one time. I said, do you guys think that you can go so deep on people's early life because you're older, because you're successful, because people see for Moritz, he's a knight, like Sir Michael Moritz, and he's former journalist. And they both were like, absolutely not. People like talking about themselves, right? And people just don't ask. So Moritz thinks that everything that really shapes you for real shapes you, like, in terms of the inner motivation happens before you're 14 years old. Now, whether or not that's true, it's a pretty interesting theory. And Doug. I mean, Doug gets to your soul and an interview. So I would tell you, and this is not in long interviews, like, in an hour, they can do it. And so I actually think it's just that people ask the wrong questions in interviews rather than, you know, what actually matters.

It sounds like they understand the power of considering. Considering the individual 100%.

They also understand the value of enduring motivation. And really, what they understand, Shane, is. And this is what you taught me about Coach K, they understand people. They don't. They. They realize that at the end of the day, it is about people. And you have to go and get that.

What's the better predictor of success then, like, from. I totally agree with you, but, like, when we say people, like, is it talent or is it, like, determination, motivation, like, resiliency? You know, Like, I. I think when. When we're talking about this, like, talent's the baseline, right? Like, for all these things, we're talking about, like, levels of leadership, to be able to go play, to be a part of a good company. But, like, the. The differentiator to me is, like, those things you're talking about. It is the determination. Like, what. What motivates you, right? Like, are you obsessed? Like, I, you know, like, how. How far are you willing to go?

That.

And that's what you're looking for Again, like, I'm a gm. I tell you, that's what I'm trying to find out.

Now, look, you need some talent now, all right? As much as, you know, my daughter, who is, you know, 5 foot 7, wants to, all right, she. She ain't dunking as much heart as she has, and Conviction and belief that I am going to dunk the basketball. Probably not going to happen for her. Right. So there. There is a baseline of raw materials that you have to have to minimum.

Viable, you know, competency. Yeah, but Shane, you were saying about Coach K, I think, or maybe you weren't. I thought you were saying.

Well, yeah, it sounded so much like my. My time with Coach K and. And to your point, Alex, Coach K was obsessed about Duke basketball. He had zero interest. He didn't play golf. He used to play tennis back in the day, but he retired from that. He gardened and he coached Duke basketball to the point where, like, I was in the league, he had no idea what I was doing outside of the NBA Finals because he was so focused on NBA basketball or Duke basketball. And. But his obsession with knowing his people is what set him apart. And the energy and the. The time it takes to think and spend energy trying to optimize your people is. Is a. Is a sacrifice and a pain that most leaders aren't willing to go. Go through. And I'm reminded this. When I was a junior, we just lost the national championship to UConn. All right, great. UConn team. They beat us. And it was the first. That summer was the first year Duke ever lost players to the. To the draft that were early entrants. You know, my roommate, Elton Brand was the first pick in the draft. He was a sophomore. My other roommate, William Avery, sophomore, was the 14th pick. Corey McGetty, who was a freshman, was the 13th pick. Trajan Langdon, our senior guard All American, had graduated. So all that was left in the cupboard were three holdovers, you know, Chris Carol, Nate James, Shane Battier, and a bunch of freshmen named Mike Dunleavy and Jason Williams, Carlos Boozer. So all the Duke haters came, came out, said, duke is dead, you know, you're going to replace Elton Brand with Shane Battier. You kidding me? The charge guy dives to loose balls.

No way.

No way.

You're not replacing Elton Brand with Baddie. No way. So I think Coach K even, you know, knew I had a little trepidation and I was excited, you know, I was happy. Like, Elton, go to the league, man. You're going to be great. Will go, you know, because I knew I was going to get more shots next year or whatever, but I was a little scared. Like, it was my time. I didn't know if I was that guy and if I could do it. And so I was interning in Chicago that summer, and Coach K called me out of the blue one Day. And he said, shane, how, you know, how's the summer going? Going, going well. Coach, I got a question for you. You know, on the way to work today, did you say, I'm going to be the best player in the ACC and I'm going to average 20 a game and lead us back to the ACC championship and win it? And I sort of laugh. I'm like, well, coach, you know, click. Coach K hangs up on me, thought it was kind of weird. But next day, calls back around the same time, says, you know, sorry about that, Shane, but I have a very, very serious question for you. You know, did you wake up today and look in the mirror and say, you know, Shane, I'm going to be, you know, first team All American, lead us back, number one seed, lead us back to the Final Four next year. And I sort of laugh, Coach, like, you know, click. Coach K. Hangs up with me again. So the third day, finally wise up, calls back, same time. So, Shane, sorry about that, but I have a very serious question for you. Did you come to the office today, say to yourself, I'm going to be the national player of the Year next year, lead us back to the championship and finish the job and win the national championship? And before you can finish the sentence, I said, coach, yes, absolutely. I'm your man. You can count on me. And he said, look, son, like, for us to be that team, you have to be that player. And you can't be that player until you believe that you're that player. And like, man, I had never, ever, ever, ever had anyone ever talk to me, challenge me and believe in me like that at the same time. And it, that single conversation was like a turning point my entire career where I thought I could be pretty good. But from that moment on, I thought of myself as that dude. And wouldn't you know it, two years later, I'm the National Player of the Year, lead my team to a number one seed, go to the final four and win the national championship in 2001. Right? And so he only said that because he thought and thought and thought about what I needed and, and I didn't need to be, you know, kicked in the pants and challenged my manhood. He needs to plant in my mind the belief that I could do it and have that bar set for me. And I had teammates that needed to kick in the pants every day. They got a kick in the pants every day. Right. That wasn't what I needed. And that only comes with just obsession about your people and thinking about exactly what they need when they need it every single time. And it was, you know, that moment those. Those series of phone calls changed my life.

The way I put it then, on the obsession with people catering to the individual. You have to be able to play different notes as a coach, right? You can't just hit the same one over and over again. And like you just said, I was just thinking about, like, people I've ever observed, and there are some people like Coach K in that situation. Shane, if you were someone who thought he was going to be the number one pick but wasn't earning it through your work, he wouldn't have called you and said that. Do you think you can be the number? You know, he would have called you with something else, right? You know, and he would have done something else because of that. And I think that that's actually. It's interesting. Like, one of the things that, you know, in my job, I work with, like, 15 companies at a time, right? Like, 10, 15 companies where I'm, like, on the board or involved in some way, and then maybe some tale of them. But, I mean, you know, There are early 20s founders who have a certain level of confidence, and then there are mid-40s founders who have a very different level of confidence. And actually, the way you interact with them is super different. There are some that need to be told, like, you don't know how good you are. You are so good, and we are in this for you. Like, oh, my gosh, take us. And there's others that are sort of like, you don't understand how hard it is out there, right? You think we're good, we're not. You know, and. And my point is, like, you know, it is a super different, you know, thing. And one of the things that's, like, fun about the job that I get to do is, like, actually having to kind of tailor the message accordingly and figuring out what somebody might need in order to achieve that. And you guys laugh, but, like, it's so true, right? Like, I. I find myself some of the times, it's like, yo, the public markets, guys, they are way different than you think, right? And, like, they are crazy. And, like, we ain't there. And then there's other people. Truly, I'm like, what are you worried about? There's nobody as good as you. Just go play. Let's go. You know, and it's. But you get the full spectrum. And I think all coaches, they have that, you know, like, I look at. Even on the Duke team that you were on, like, he's got to tell Jay Will. Different stuff that he's telling you, different stuff than he's telling Elton Brandt, 100%.

And, you know, look, we take coaching for granted. We've been around literally some of the greatest coaches in all of our industry, right? Most people go through life and they don't have one hall of Fame coach, right? So.

So what do we.

What do we tell those folks? What do we. What do we tell folks who have never been exposed to the people who have been on the Mount Rushmore literally, of their. Of their industries?

The one thing that comes to mind for me, too, with all these. All these people we're talking about is they're. They're all. I agree that they're. They're all different, right? Like, they're. They're all outliers. And. And I do think there's something on that note, Shane, like, and this. It's okay to embrace being different. So often I don't think that that's encouraged.

Right.

Like, as we grow up or, you know, like, again, I mean, I just think everything's set up to, like, for us to. You know, you're pursuing what everybody else is doing, or you're trying to be like everybody else. And, you know, like, I just think that couldn't be further from what you actually should be.

Just as an aside, Alex, on this, and then, Shane, I want to go back to what you said about, like, how do we do it? If you don't. Haven't been around these hall of Famers on the point of, like, being different or being weird, you know, you guys know Mike is homeschool, right? And part of what we do in the home school is we try to have, like, friends come and, you know, do an hour with them. Shane's done it. Alex, you're. You're on the docket for next school year when it starts, FYI. And the kids just come up with questions, and they ask the person the questions and the person. The only thing I ask of the person is, like, look, just be honest, whatever it is. And so I had Patrick come Collison from Stripe, okay? And one of the things he wrote when he was younger and our kids found it because they did some research, was like, it's good to be weird as a teenager. Good to be a little weird as a teenager, okay? So they asked him, like, why. Why is it good to be a little weird as a teenager? And he basically made the same point you just made, which is, like, there is this extreme power, extreme forces trying to get you to conform, right? And you can Basically lose all the things that make you unique by trying to be like everybody else. When, in fact, when you grow older, you're gonna really love the fact that you have some stuff that's different, and that's going to be what's going to make your friends like you or make your partner like you, or it's going to make a business person be interested in you. But, like, that's actually the good stuff. And so now what will happen is my kids are kids, right? They're 11, 11, 10. You know, every once in a while, hey, you're whatever, you weirdo. And now every time they'll be like, well, Patrick Collison says it's good to be weird. And I was like, how good is that? Like, that is like part of, like, you know, the, the base response for the Gupta children. And so I told Patrick that. But I was just thinking what you said of, like, Shane, you talked about this, like, when you were a kid. Like, you know, so all you want is to be the same, right? And then you get older and you're like, oh, man. No, I like being different. And I think that's totally true on the coaches that, like, they, they embrace that.

Yeah. And I think they make it okay for their players to embrace it. Like, for me, again, like, I just come back to when I got drafted. Like, I, I had played, I had played my entire college career in the shotgun, entire college career, and in a quote unquote gimmicky spread option type offense that would never work in the NFL. And I got drafted and all of a sudden I, like, there was this huge stigma for me, and I did that. Like, I have to be a quote unquote pro style quarterback. I need to be able to play under center with a fullback and run a pro offense, whatever that is. But, like, I very much felt like I had to be someone other than me. Right? Like, I need to be Peyton Manning. Like, that's like, you know, I got to be this pro quarterback. Like, that's it. And I spent a lot of years trying to combat that narrative that was out there, like, that I could do this a lot of years. And again, like, to be honest, I remember, like, we hired, when we hired Jim, like this, like, he came in, he's like, you freaking you. You were a great runner in college. Like, we're running you. Yeah. Like, that's like. He's like, you need to like, yeah. And it's like, what are we doing? Like, why aren't we running you? Like, that's a. It's an. You have got, you know, like, you can do this. It's a strength of yours. And we're going to design plays and call them. And all of a sudden, I remember, like, it was like a little bit of a light bulb going on. That, like, okay. It had been something that I had been hesitant to do because I didn't want that. I was trying to combat that narrative, like, that I was a runner. Like, I need to be this pocket passer. And all of a sudden he's calling place for me on third and three to go run and get a first down with my legs. And, like, again, taking pride in that again. And, like. And it. And it really. Andy took it to another level, too. When I got traded to Kansas City. That. And it wasn't until I finally kind of embraced this, I think, that I found success in the NFL was that, like, I was finally comfortable, like, being me, right? Like, that my style and is good enough and that I'm gonna just pursue that, right? Being my best and not trying to be somebody else or like anybody else. But it took a lot of years, like, a long time for me to realize that, you know, because. Because of those pressures and I was adult, Like, I wasn't a kid, you know, Like, I was a young man.

Alex, I think one of the things that's there and I. I do this. I don't know if Shane does this. I think you probably do it just because, like, everyone I think does it. But, like, we tend to think the things we're good at are kind of throwaway, are not as good as. Not as important as the things other people are good at. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, like, on you, you were like, oh, yeah, well, the fact that I can run, like, that's not important, right? Like, I need to be able to do this other thing. And, like, whatever I'm good at, I tend to be like, oh, yeah, but. But that's not the thing that counts, right? And then you. It's so stupid because other people look at that, like, I would do anything to be able to run as a quarterback, right? Or whatever my positive or whatever Shane's positive is. And I think that, like, one of the big things I think is, like, not dismissing the stuff that you're actually good at, you know, and just kind of, like, letting that go to the side, like, no, no, no. Like, I gotta be the best version of that, you know? And I think some of the things that Harbaugh did and what coaches do in general and it's funny, actually, now that I think about it, people have done this for me, like, from one of my insecurities. I think I told you is people sometimes say, oh, you're good with people. And I oftentimes hear that as like, you're saying I'm bad at math. And I'm like, listen, I'm good at math. Like, you know, like, rather than like taking a compliment of actually like, oh, no, people like being around you. But I go back and it's sort of like, actually Doug, again, to his credit, was sort of like, you know, why would you fight that? That like, people want to be around you? That's actually, that's a great thing in our business, right? Like, go use it. And I think that, like, instead of dismissing it, I think that's like one of the things that really good coaches do is they like get you to, to like your strengths a little bit.

You know, bring your bag. Bring your bag. Yeah, like great coaches, you know, bring your bag. Bring your talent. All right? We'll work with you. Don't worry about your weaknesses. What, what, what do we have here? Right? And that's. It's an amazing talent as a coach because it's hard. It's hard. It's. It's scary. It's really scary to embrace, you know, everybody's bag and not just be selective about. Let's just take this out of this, this person, this out of that person, you know, And I play for a great. One of my favorite coaches of all time was Jeff Van Gundy. You know, one of, one of the smartest basketball minds that I've been around. And he had a great saying about the plan he had for us, right? And this is something I tell people all the time to use with their own teams. He said, don't fail the plan. Let the plan fail you. Right? And what he meant by that is he had a game plan. And this is, you know, at the beginning of the analytics revolution. And we had the data that like the long two points, you know, 20 foot jump shot was the hardest shot to, to, to make in basketball, right before everyone else knew that that was a horrible shot. And he said that will not lose a game by giving up that shot. Okay? And if a team hits that shot, you know, at a 75, 80% clip and we lose the game, that's on me. Right? So we're going to take away the paint, the drives, we're going to take away the three point shot, and we're going to give up that 20 foot hopefully dribble jumper. And if he makes it, it's on me. But don't fail. That's the plan. Don't fail the plan. Okay? The second you go rogue and say, I have a better idea, okay, and I'm gonna do this. And it goes against allowing that 20 foot jumper. Now we got a problem. Even if you're successful, right? Don't fail the plan. Let the plan fail you. And you know, as someone who's being coached, that gives you amazing, amazing freedom. That gives you freedom as a player, right?

You.

You're not gonna yell at me if I just do what you want me to do. As long as you do it with intensity and thought. And it's. It's. It's an amazing way to liberate the people who are listening to you for leadership.

But Harbaugh also gave. That's so cool because actually, now I think about it, Harbaugh and Andy gave you the, the. The kind of. The freedom to play free by being like, we want you to run. We want you to be you. They actually let you go back to that. And, you know, I was thinking about your point on bringing your bag, and this is such an aside, but I was thinking about it. You know, my dad is Shane. You play golf with my dad, Alex. You got to play with him next time he's out here. But my dad's got a funky swing, okay? Like, it is a funky swing, but my dad is like a Ninja within, like 100 yards, like, hooded seven iron, run it up, like, because he's got amazing hand eye coordination, right? He never learned how to swing a golf club, but he's like, not bad, but. But he's amazing around the greens because he just kind of like, he's very creative and he can just like, put the club on the ball and whatever. He looks crazy sometimes he's doing it, but it's just awesome. And my dad does not care what he look. Doesn't care about anything. He's like, look, I'm coming to the chorus. I'm bringing my bat, right? I'm going like, yeah, like, you know, like, my brother will hit some beautiful, you know, flop shot. My dad's like, all right, let me do this. And he'll, you know, spin it around the bunker. But he's just proud of, like, yeah, like, this is. This is what I do. And so I was just thinking about this thing of, like, the pride of bring your bag. And like, you know, the best coach I've ever had by far is my dad, you know, in every way. But like he does that even in golf for sure.

And he probably though like didn't try to make you into something, you know what I'm saying? Like not talking about golf, like, I, I do think that comes to. The other part of this is that, that both those coaches, you know, Jim and Andy, that had a big effect on me also didn't just, they didn't like so the same thing going back to the original point of like the difference between fear and courage. Like when I got coached on a play by play basis, right. Like both of those guys, right, are quarterback guys. They coached in the quarterback. They're both just, they're head coaches. They're constantly in the quarterback room. They coach the quarterback position. I mean shoot. Jim played it for 15 years. And every single snap they stand 10 yards deep right behind the QB. So like, because they want the QB, like vision, right?

Vantage point.

Yeah, yeah, like so it's. So as a quarterback you drop back, you know, at five, seven step, drop in the gun. Like you're, he's two yards behind me, right? Like he's like right there. And they, both of them just like not moving and you're doing the play, you know, you're running the play but in practice and like so it's just this perfect. You have like immediate feedback. Right. Like right then. And both of these guys though, coached from a point of like it was always moving forward and, and getting better.

So one thing and then I'll go back to Shane's question on how do you do this if you haven't been around these coaches? Because the vast majority of people aren't. And I, I was actually thinking about to your point. Like all of us have been blessed because all of us actually were very lucky to have dads that were good people who helped us early on too. So like we are like, you know, very lucky. But I was thinking about, I actually think there's obviously like the. Listen to the podcast, read the books, like study the people. And I do think that like, you know, like, I don't know part. You'd mentioned James Dyson earlier, right? Like founders is ridiculous. Like David Senra is just so good, right? You can just like go deep on these biographies and listen. But I actually think the real thing in addition to that is you have to show vulnerability and say that you're trying to learn it because you know what everyone responds to is an ask for help. If you go and you're like, I'm trying to learn what great leadership is. I don't have it at my company. I admire you from a distance. Will you talk to me? At least in the Valley, everyone says yes. It's amazing. There's a lot of bad things about Silicon Valley, but the best part about it is this willingness to help if you ask a question. I suspect that's true everywhere. I think people like being asked. You just have to go do the research to actually know who's good and who's not. I don't know if that works like that in sports, but in business, I'm shocked, you know, at who you can talk to if you just go ask.

Probably not as open door policy in sport. Although there is a lot of recycling of coaches, right? So certainly guys move around and are on different staffs and like take notes and certainly can, I think, take what they like. But I don't know why I just thought of this, but it does make me think that like there was also this part and I don't know if this happens in the business world, but like this, this is the Bill Belichick model, right? Like he would hire coaches, he didn't want guys that had experience on other staffs, right? Like, because they had learned all these negative ways, right? Like they'd learned the norm, the quote, unquote. Like they're like everybody else. And so he constantly wanted these clean slates so that he, like, it was almost like you were going to school there, like the apprenticeship, right? Like this is again the patriot way and you're going to learn our system, right? And like how many of those guys that, like, some of them, you know, like, what was Matt, Patricia, the guy who's like a PhD, right? He didn't even, didn't have a football background. And like he comes in interns and all of a sudden he's, you know, this phenomenal coordinator and head coach.

And ironically, the antithesis of Belichick is, guess who guy who served on his staff? Nick Saban. So Nick Saban would, would be the opposite. Nick Saban was famous for taking all the coaches. They got fired. You know, they may have had a run in, you know, with the law or just didn't win, but they had an amazing skill set that Saban would say, yeah, well, come to Tuscalooska, you know, and be, and be a, be a, you know, a special assistant to the offense. And Saban would just sit and just extract, extract, extract that special talent, right? And rehab. The guy would be rehabbed just by the Saban aura. And wouldn't you know that that guy usually got Hired out and Saban would bring in the next guy. You know, it happened with Sarkeesian. It happened with Lane Kiffin. It happened time and time again. And so. And it's ironic that, you know, Saban cut his teeth, you know, with Belichick, you know, you know, and so the two greatest football coaches of our era, very, very different ways of leadership and, and really team building and coach tree building.

I love that. And I think that I, I, a little bit. Maybe getting to the point there, Ravi, like, what. What are some of the takeaways? And like, certainly I think that that is one of them. Right? Like, again, like, you don't. Like, there is no one way, right? Like, I mean, there's so many different ways to do this. I think there are some commonalities from characteristics, standpoints that we've talked about, right? Like, I, I do think this whole idea of, like, you, you. You have to be fearless. You said it. Right? Like, you got to be competent and sharp. Like, you got. I think there has to be a level of obsession. And there's so many of these things that I think leaders have, but they are different too.

But you got to connect with your people, no matter what. They gotta. They gotta believe that you care about them, you know?

Yeah. It's like, I. That's kind of that statement that I think they're, on some level, they're all salesmen, right? Like, you got to be able to get people to buy in. You got it. You got to get people to buy in.

We're all salespeople. So, Ravi, how. How do you up. You do a lot of coaching for your founders.

How.

How do you bolster their leadership capabilities? All right, you're dealing with some very, very sharp, intellectual people, may not have the raw leadership skills. What do you do to. To. To beef up that muscle for your.

For your founders, besides have them come into the Gupta school?

That's the highest compliment I can give, man. Putting somebody in front of my kids. Come on. I think the first thing that I try to provide is, like, the truth. I really believe in the Saban quote of the, like, average players want to be left alone. Good players want to be coached. Great players want to be told the truth. So I view, like, a lot of the roles, like, what is the truth? How can I give that to you? Okay, so I did. The first thing I try to do is I try to tell them whether their team is excellent or not their team. Because a lot of times you just don't know if you're a founder. I Mean, you remember, like, this might be the first company you've ever started. Might be the first. Mark Zuckerberg always says this. He's like, facebook's not just the first company I, like, started, it's the first company I've ever worked at. Right. So one of the things that I think is valuable sometimes for people is just like, what does great look like? So sometimes you'll just go and have them meet excellent C level people in other organizations. Not that they're going to recruit, but just to be like, this exists. Sometimes you'll hear founders say stuff like, oh, execs stink. And it's like, no, no, no. The execs you've seen stink. Some of them really are terrible, but some of them are great. So one of them, Shane, I try to do is just like, let for some of them, let them see what great looks like so that they can increase the scale of their ambition. I think another thing that I try to do is be available. And what I mean by that is like, it is lonely. And in those moments where they're scared, I do want them to call and I want them to call me. And I want them to know that it's okay to call, you know, And I want them to know, like, I was never a founder, but I was a, you know, leader. And like, I've been there. I know it. It's okay. It's okay. You know, you can call. So I want to, I want to be available and I want to get that call. But honestly, I want to get it selfishly because I like being reliable, you know, But I think that being somebody that can talk to them when the things are bad and letting them know that's okay. And then the third thing that I want to do is a lot of times, actually just this happened the other day after a board meeting. After the board meeting, I called this founder and I said, the founder said they might want to raise additional money. Okay, cool. And they're like, well, we might want to raise it if we can get it at this price. And you know, people are like, well, like, you know, I don't know if we're going to get that price. And you know, the board, you know, whatever, whatever the reactions were. And I called him afterwards and I was like, why do you want to raise? And he gave me like a really good answer as to why he wants to. And he basically made it sound like it was kind of like it was either going to make or break the company. I said, okay, cool. Sounds like you think it's like, existential. Not for, like, existing, I guess, but existential for your ability to play, to win. He's like, yeah, for sure. And I was like, well, then why do you care about the price so much, right? Because you just said that you need it, and everyone reacted to the price. But the point you were making is that for the company you want to build, you gotta go and do this. He's like, yeah. I'm like, okay, cool. So, like, then we gotta raise, like. And it's not. It's not a board decision. It's your decision. And you just told. Told me that. So my. My point to that is for people that are really good, Shane, I try to just hold the mirror up, right? Like, what exactly are you saying? And are your actions consistent with that? I don't know what to do. I just want to do what you think we should do, but I want it to be consistent and accurate. And then There are some CEOs or founders who are just so good, and they're so tough on themselves, you know, that a lot of what I want them to just know is, like, man, you are good. You are so good. And we just. We're riding with you. So a lot of it is just kind of like, letting them know we're riding with them. Because I do think that, like, founders, leaders, like, a lot of, they're, like, the best of us. They really are. They work so hard. They're going after it. And so that's kind of some of the stuff I try to do. But a lot of it's just, like, being there. And then I'll tell you, there's, you know, there's one company I work with where, like, they're amazing. And mostly what I can do is, like, help them recruit. And I just try to, like, grab a towel, man. You know, like, okay, cool.

All right.

The best. I can't give you that much strategic out. What. Okay, cool. Who can I help you close? So you know that it depends on the person.

And, Alex, looking back at your career, is there any interaction you wish you would have done differently with a coach? Knowing what you know now, knowing what you know now, and what. What would you have done?

So, first off, Ravi, as you were telling me that story, and you're like, you know, the first thing you said was, like, telling your founders, like, is their team great or not? And I just was, like, reminisce to, like, Andy, I'm rolling along in Kansas City. And clearly he's like, this isn't great. This guy over here, this Guy over here, Mahomes is great. We better swap this out. You know. Smart decision. Smart decision.

I will tell you, you are the most, in this case, you are definitely the most humble, multi time Pro bowl quarterback. And I think you finished two or three in the MVP race that season. If that's not great, I don't know man. That's pretty good.

You know so something. Yeah. Shane, you absolutely. So one of the things that it doesn't get talked about in mainstream media in regards to football, especially with quarterbacks but my experience has definitely backed this up. The difference of playing for an offensive head coach and a defensive head coach is night and day when you're, when you're a quarterback. Because most of the defensive head coaches are worried about their unit, right? Like the defense and we're going to play great defense and in order to play great defense we need good field position. Our offense doesn't need to turn the ball over and they need to eat up the clock right like that. That's very much like the recipe to be a top five defense. There's a huge correlation with the, the, their, their offense's ability to run the football. It dictates your ability to be right because you're not on the field and the games are shorter so you limit the possessions by the other team. So every defensive head coach I've been a part of, they want you to run the ball, not turn the ball. Like play very conservative, right. Like in, in, in essence and vice versa. Offensive coaches are like let's freaking go. We're trying to run the score up and score as many points as possible. Many plays as possible. And so like as the, as the, the kind of the field general of that like those are so different. Going, walking onto the field like with those two conflicting mindsets. And I had only really known when I got to the NFL only again like, like I played for Urban. The guy was nuts. It was like well do we want to put up 50? We're trying to hang a 50 burger every time we take the field, right? And then I get drafted and Mike Nolan, awesome guy, awesome guy. And he was a first time head coach and I'm the number one pick. I'm quarterback. But like it was very different. We, I, I for the first time had to, I had never been in this position and I had to juggle this right. Like he's asking me to do something different, right. I need to play team football. I need to help the defense. We weren't very good on that side of the ball. My first Couple years and like so that what I was getting to at I was getting asked to kind of do it, do it differently. We're going to run the football, we're going to shorten these games a little bit. Most your, most your past attempts are going to come on third down now, which sucks right? Like you're not going to have a lot of first and second down passing and it just was so hard for me and that dynamic. We didn't have a lot of success. I mean we were terrible. I was bad. But those interactions, Shane, like I look back on and I was young and naive and I learned a lot about myself especially. But yeah, like I look back on those years and I could have been a lot better. Right. There's definitely things I wish I had a second chance on. You know, with Mike, you know there was a lot of I, I mean I had seven coordinators in my first seven years on offense and so there was a lot of other things but like I had a role too and I probably needed to communicate better. I needed to be more comfortable with who I was. Like all there's things, you know, obviously we've talked about but yeah, I, I, without a doubt I wish I could do those things again but I can't. And so I, I, you just kind of try to, you know, obviously move forward with them and take what you can. But yeah, I like a lot of things I wish I could do.

What about you Shane? Because you had so many good coaches but I mean are there things that you wish you would have done differently? Same question you asked Alex.

Yeah, I think I would have taken more time to learn how the sausage is made. Right. I mean you're, you know, I knew I was playing for, you know, the greatest basketball coach of all time and Coach K. And so like I followed along but never really looked and appreciated what, what I was going through until many years later and I'm like oh this is again to your point out, you know, my kids are tired of hearing me say next play and you know, be like a fist and, and all these Coach K isms and you know, when you're in it, you're survive. You're trying to make a name for yourself and you're trying to do the best you can that so, so often when you're around great teachers, you know, the unfortunate part is you don't realize it till, till it's gone and it's over and you realize that like as great as you thought it was going through at the time, it was like 100 times better, right? So that's the biggest regret I have, you know, and it's playing from my dad. My dad, you know, of all the coaches, probably my greatest. My greatest coach because he taught me the power of showing up every day, enthusiastic, being the biggest cheerleader for your team, right? Being a great sports, a sportsman, playing to win, hustle, right? Look good, play good. Like, those are all things that, like, man, those are the hallmarks of my career, and those are things my dad just. Just instilled in every one of my teams that, that we played in and were the hallmark of my. My entire NBA career. Right? And so, you know, that's. That's the hard part about playing for great coaches. You just, you know, you don't know until. Until. Until it's gone.

I take so much from what you guys have said today. Would you guys ever coach, either of you guys?

I have coached. I was. I was. The last four years, I coached my. My own son and in seventh grade and eighth grade, Ransom basketball. In the last two years, I was the assistant coach at Ransom Everglades High School in Miami as the assistant varsity coach. And I had an unbelievable time. And I know how hard coaching is and the patience that it takes and the thought that it takes, and it's. It's. I try to instill all the lessons that I learned on my journey, and I couldn't. I couldn't. And, you know, going through that, I've retired from coaching now that I've moved out of. Out of Florida. Florida. But, you know, I have a greater appreciation for the truly great coaches and the energy and the thought and the patience more than anything else. The patience that it takes to. To see what people are capable of and just watering that seed. Watering that seed, fertilizing that seed and not knowing when it's going to sprout, but it sprouts eventually. I'm. I'm an impatient person, and that was the hardest part for me. But again, looking back at it, being able to coach my kid and to try to teach him the lessons that made me successful over the years. Something, you know, I probably got more out of than he. Than he did at the time. Yeah, that'll bloom. But, you know, I give major props to any coach out there.

What about you, Alex?

You didn't know that you're looking at the Woodside Elementary School. Middle school, I should say, flag football offensive coordinator right here. I mean.

Well, I.

You better have some good stuff. I'm offended.

I'm offended. You better.

You better have some Good stuff. You play for some pretty good coach. You better. You better. I want to see some, like, quads, wide, you know, motion.

Alex. Alex.

I'm also a fellow Woodside Elementary School coach because little. You might not know this, but if you're homeschooling, you actually are still allowed to play on the sports teams for the school because that's the district you're in. So I am the Woodside basketball coach for Nyan and Shrey, and hopefully we'll be for savvy next year. So we're shared coaching. But please tell me about this experience.

Big roles. No, no. And I've enjoyed it. And I think. I think certainly, you know, being a parent, you're on some levels, you're a coach. You know, like, especially as they get ready for their. Their stuff. Like, I feel like I even, you know, my middle guy, who does, you know, he's doing more musicals than. Than sports these days. It's still. There's still so many things that. That are transferable, but I guess, yes and no. I. I think again, to come back to, like, I. I know it requires such a big commitment, Ravi, especially to coach professionally and at the collegiate level. It is a huge commitment. And right now, with my kids ages, like, I just, you know, what is this? Be, like my fourth year out. Like, playing required that commitment, too. Right? Like, Shayna, you know, like, it. It required you so much sacrifice on the family front and that now, you know, in a little bit when you were playing, it was a means to an end and lucky enough to play, you know, a long time. And so now, no, I'm kind of in this zone where I'm not quite there. My kids are at great ages, and I really enjoy, you know, being an Uber driver, but I. I do think there's something intriguing about here as they get a little older and. And maybe I do have more time on my hands. Yeah. I think I love the high school age. I think it's an amazing age. I think the kids are so impressionable. I love the idea of running your own program, right. Being the head coach. And again, all these things we've talked about, like, it's your program and how do you want to make it right? What is it? What are the things that are important that you want it to stand for? And I think that someday. I don't know, but that's something that intrigues me.

It's so funny you say that. I could totally see that, dude. It would be so cool. That'd be so awesome, you know, like, if you did that. And I think that you'd find it so fulfilling. You have to find the time where it works family wise, you know. But like, yeah, I mean, my experience, which is that we were laughing about, but like, it's my favorite thing in the world being their coach, you know, I, like, truly, it is one of those things that, like, Shane, you know, because my kids were so younger, so much younger when doing it, like, you kind of have like none of the complexity or the other stuff. Like, it's just, it's just the good stuff. When they're 10, 11 years old and you're coaching them. I, I think. And so same thing, like, I got all the parents at the end of the year would come up and thank me for doing it, you know, and I'm like, I should thank you. This is my favorite part of the week. But every week, right, you know, these guys out there and you know, Alex, I, I laugh because, you know, we. Woodside basketball, you know, has three rules, right? Just three rules, okay? Number one, have fun and be a good teammate. Number two, move the ball on offense. Number three, were Wildcats on defense because we're the woods at Wildcats. And I say it every time. And I'm like, it makes me happy to say that right now, you know, but the same thing, like, the kids would always ask it, they would yell it. But yeah, it's my favorite thing. I hope you end up being a high school coach. That would be pretty cool.

We'll see. Maybe one day.

I think a huge part of leadership and coach is inspirational motivation. And you know, I, I love to hear the football hype. Coach talks before the game. So, Alex, I'm curious, what is your most memorable inspirational speech in Ravi? Give me the equivalent.

I got two, two great examples. Jim Harbaugh, the moment, the last words. You know, we would go through full team warmups in pads. You know, you get to the stadium on game day. You know, as a quarterback, three and a half hours, four hours before a game, you've been leading up to this game all week. It's just obviously at such high stakes when you play once a week and you know, he brings the team back in and this is, this is right before you're about to run out and play this game, right? And like this, the stress and energy is at its highest. And the very last words that Jim Harbaugh would say to the team every single game day, like, and I'll never forget the first time he said it, like, it's caught me so off guard. I mean, it I, I still, I use it on my kids. It was just like, play as hard as you can, as fast as you can, for as long as you can, and don't worry, right? Like, the last words he said were, don't worry. Like, just go, you know, and it's like those things we talk about. You want your, you want your team, you want your kids to play free, right? And hard. Essentially. That's all he was saying to the team. The other thing that I love, the Big Red Andy Reid, as he's known in, in, in the building the night before the game, too, is kind of same thing. So, like, you would, you know, you're at the hotel, everybody stays at the hotel the night before a game, again, to kind of eliminate distractions. And you got all your meetings and you're prepping and, you know, you're doing your, you do position meetings. And then you would do offense and defense and special teams meetings. And then the very last meetings is team meeting. And again, kind of a lot of times the last words from your coach, your head coach, he's got everybody together. It's the night before the big game. Everybody's, you know, you're, you're amped up. And Andy just is like, he'd have this little note card and he's up there in his Hawaiian shirt, by the way, always in his Hawaiian shirt. The night before a game would just kind of set the tone and he'd have a little note card and you know, like on the note card, every single time he'd get up there and be like, all right, I got some times for you guys. And he would just go through, like, the logistics. He'd be like, kickoff 1:07pm tomorrow. He's like, you guys need to be in the locker room 1107, right? Pregame meal starts this time. And he would just, he would go through the logistics and he said, all right, I'm going to treat you guys to a cheeseburger. And his final words were, I'm going to treat you guys to a cheeseburger. Okay? Every, it was every single time for five years. His last words to the team were, I'm going to treat you guys a team a cheeseburger because you'd have team snack right then, right? Like, that was the tradition. He'd be breaking you for team snack. And then you'd go to bed and team snack. Two things Andy Reid snack always had to have were cheeseburgers and then a ridiculous Haagen Dazs ice cream bar, like the full Sunday setup. And but those were his final words, right? Like, and, and I say that, that again to the better, best coaches I've played for. Like, it wasn't some rah, rah, cheesy thing, right? Like, but it was consistent, right? And it kind of embodied for both of them who they were and what those he want, they wanted their teams to be about. And again, even your mantra, Ravi, with the, the basketball team, like, again, like, there is some level of consistency and they weren't making it something it wasn't. It wasn't some cheesy speech, right? Like that. It just. These are the things you need to know. And like, I, I don't know, I just find I found comfort in both of those as a player, you know?

Shane, you, you made. You asked me as a joke, but I'm gonna answer you anyway. You know why? Okay. Because you play a big part in this. So I have two speeches that have two pump up things that have mattered to me. One was what you sent me after Amazon bought Whole Foods. That was an amazing thing that, like, really meant a lot to me. And like, the end of, you have a chance to become antifragile. How lucky are you? So you should know, like, for real, in my life, like, that was like, top of the list. And then the other one is one that you guys will appreciate. So I was in college, okay. I was a senior. And, you know, I was trying to get a job. I wasn't going to get drafted like you guys were. So I was like, I need to get a job. Okay, cool. So I'm applying and like, you kind of need one to, like, get it going. You know, you got to get one job because then you go to the next one. Oh, I already have an offer. This, that. So I don't have anything in hand, and I'm grinding trying to get one, okay? And so the first job that I'm trying, I got turned down from a couple. I'm like, oh, there's not great. So I'm trying to get one, trying to get one. So I am interviewing with Boston Consulting Group, okay? Bcg. And I'm waiting, waiting for this call, okay? And the guy who's running the process, and I'm gonna use his name, just, he's a wonderful guy, but use his name just because it helps with the story. Guy's name is David Hoogie, okay? And I am just sitting there, I go through it. I'm ready for the call. I'm waiting for the call. I'm just waiting for the call from this guy. And one day goes by, two days go by, three goes by, no call from David Hoogie. And I got my little cell phone, my little flip phone, and I'm just dying. Finally, I call my dad. Like, dad, I don't know if I'm gonna get this job. And if I don't get this job, then I don't know if I get McKinsey. Like, I just don't know if I can get this thing. And he's like, tell me what happened. Tell me about the process. So I go through, I tell him the whole thing. My dad listens, takes like 10 second pause, and he says, son, he'll call. And I feel better, right? Because my dad's like, don't worry, he's gonna call. I'll get the job. And then not two seconds later, and he said, and if he doesn't, fuck him, we'll be fine. And I really feel like that moment was like such an amazing dad moment. And even the word choice of like, we'll be fine. My dad doesn't drop enough bomb terribly frequently, but the same thing of like, it's gonna happen and if it doesn't, fuck him, we'll be fine. And I, like, that's the best one. I think about it all the time because whenever, like, something is not going, if I'm worried something's not gonna happen. And I tell that to people. Same thing. And sometimes there's some people in my life and, you know, again, David Hoogie's. I haven't talked to this guy in 25 years. But sometimes for people I'm really close to, they've actually heard the name David Hoogie. Instead of me saying, fuck him, we'll be fine. If something's like, we're not sure about, I'll be like, listen, man, remember David Hoogie? And it's, you know, it works to this day. But yeah, that's. That's the best one from my dad.

It's great.

This was fun.

I think we got it.

That's a sweet story, Ravi. Thanks for tuning in to Glue Guys Guys. We're on social media at Glue Guys Underscore podcast and we'll be back next week.