Chatter Matters - [Glue Guys, EP.3]

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Communication today. That's our topic. Alex, that good with you?

Yeah, sounds great.

Yes, but you got to communicate if you don't think it's great, if you're, if you're unhappy with it, you got to communicate.

I think we're at the stage when like there, nothing's off the table right now.

I mean, Ravi, you make a good point. You know, we're keeping a standings of who shows up late and who shows up early to the fulfillment of this podcast. What would you say the standings would be?

There's a recency bias now.

Okay, no, no, that's not how that works.

Well, you know, it just begged to the point that like, you know, you guys are both in Silicon Valley and Alex was saying that just like meetings start when they start, there's no set time. You know, I'm just a Midwestern guy, you know, humble, humble Midwestern guy. You know, 10 o' clock means 10 o' clock where I'm from.

The best part about you being a humble Midwestern guy is in Miami the last 10 years, you know, the most non Midwestern place that there is.

You know, still just a Detroit assembly line mentality. No, just 10 o' clock means 10 o'. Clock. But Alex's, your point was like it boils down to communication. You know, if the, if the head of the bank, the head of the fund, the lead partner wants to show up he just shows up late and it boils down to communication. So I said, it's very, very timely, very timely for today's discussion.

It's a timely thing.

I have no argument against this. I'm completely just like, I totally agree with you, Shane. I don't have. I don't have a rebuttal at all. I couldn't agree more. Right.

The best part about Alex's response is it's truly the response of, like, the athlete that just knows what the right answer is to the question, you know, like, which is, I'm not going to dig myself any deeper here. You know, I'm just going to. I'm take it right on the chin. I'm going to say, I'm sorry, I have no rebuttal.

When you're in film review, Ravi, like, when you're like, you're going over a game, it could be a tough game. And like, most good coaches, like, they don't go over your great plays, right? Like, so you go in, you know, you go in and you review the crappy stuff, which sucks. But that's like the most coach's mindset, right? Like, you always got to get better and there's always the guy, and you learn pretty quick. Like, just don't be defensive. Like, you know, and that's. It's, it's emotional, especially if you lost or you played bad and you get in there and you get defensive. You're like, but this guy did this and this guy, you know, and they're all very valid things, but it doesn't get you anywhere in that conversation. You know, it's like it just wastes time. You get in there and you just take it, Take it right on the chin.

Well, I had two reactions when you did that. I have no rebuttal.

You're right.

One, that's like a great way to take feedback in a professional setting. Two, that's also, like, the way that I argue with Avni, I think, when I get feedback from her, like, you're right. I'm sorry, I have no rebuttal. Won't happen again. You know, just. Just take it the whole time.

You guys have listened to Chris Voss. And so one of the keys in negotiation, which I'm. I'm very conscious of, and now my wife knows all these tricks when I use it on her. When you're ever in a disagreement, you want the other person to say, that's right. Not your right. Your right connotates some, some patronization, and you're just acquiescing to Shut the other person up. And so, and so if you say, you know, you're right, babe, you're right, you're right, you're right. That's basically me saying, you know what? Okay, like, let's end this conversation. It's not going anywhere. But if I say, that's right, that's right, that's right. That's when you really know that you've won an argument and persuaded somebody.

Huh? That's good. I like that. I've actually never. You've actually suggested Chris Voss, the negotiating guy, right? You know, what was his actual job? Shane?

He was an FBI negotiator. And one of my favorite books, I tried to read it once a year, never split the difference. And, you know, I love behavioral psychology and all the mind hacks. And Chris Voss did an amazing episode on the Masterclass and just breaking down all the tricks of the trade from an FBI negotiator standpoint, which it was very contrary to what we would think negotiator is all about. And his main point is about tactical empathy. And you can actually weaponize empathy in negotiation, whether you're negotiating with a hostage situation or with your wife about where we're going to dinner. And most of us, most of us would, would think, no, you got to take as much ground as you want. And, and it's just, it's just like, you know, divide and conquer. No, it's actually about not splitting the difference, not about taking as much ground as you can. It's about having empathy with the other side. And it's, it's, it's a pretty amazing lesson. To go back to one of our former episodes, we're talking about just, you know, having a vulnerability and, you know, allowing yourself to see the other person's side and have empathy. And I think it really goes perfectly with the theme of, of communication. And so the bad news is when I try to use all these tricks on my wife, she knows their tricks and she says, nope, stop, don't. Don't use Chris Voss on me. And so if you find something that's really, really good and really useful, be careful where you use it, especially at home, because they will use that against you and useless.

I actually think there's a big thing in what he's saying which is sort of like, is it a repeat game or a one time game? Because if you have any sort of duration to a relationship, right, Then you just like trying to take everything in the first negotiation. I think it really screws it up because they just know that you're like a taker in the Adam Grant parlance, you know? And I think if you actually view it as like, no, this is a repeat game, which is something I think about all the time. Is this a repeat game or is this a one time game? And almost everything of, like, note is a repeat game. You know, you actually, I think, treat it super differently. And so that, to me, is like a big distinction. And I'm, you know, happy to hear that the FBI negotiator, like, thinks about it as a repeat game because it's like relationships with other government agencies, with other, you know, hostile actors, with agent, with, you know, nations, with our reputation, you know, whatever it is.

Yeah. 100.

I like that. That's right. Versus you're right. Because I feel like it just. Lee, it actually leaves it so much better because even if I were to be like, you're right, babe, you're right. Like, I don't think she'd be happy about that.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it would still leave, like, an edge. She'd be like, whatever. You just don't want to. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're just. But I'm gonna. I'm gonna. Shane, in the words. Shane's on, like, you know.

I know, I know. He is. He is.

I'm a little more conscious of my word selection now.

Well, he's a communications genius, I think, is the real thing. But, Alex, I actually, the reason I wanted to talk about communication was you talking about what you could do at the line. Right. And how you could get him to show it through your cadence and all of that. And I actually think that, like, there's all this other communications that we can talk about. That was fascinating. Fascinating to me of like, what the hell happens when you are, you know, behind under center? Okay. And all I'm thinking is, like, Peyton mailing, Peyton Manning yelling Omaha. Okay.

Yeah, totally, totally.

Like, what. What is happening back then? And what are you doing?

This is.

And we're going to kind of deep dive here a little bit into some football. But yeah, I mean, offensively, this is the, like, the nature of home field advantage in football. And I think it's greater in football. It's a much bigger deal in football than every other sport because communication is crucial for offense, and you actually rely on it, like, all year long. So, like, all off season, all mini camps, training camps, like, there's lots of forms of communication, but we're talking verbal here. And so you rely on this and you get really good at verbal communication. And then naturally, though, the season comes and you play half your games where you can't communicate verbally. So it. It's. It's a little skewed in that sense, and you become. You're so reliant on it offensively. And so, yeah, as a quarterback and. And you brought up Peyton, who kind of actually is. Probably helped revolutionize this. You know, he was one of the first guys that was doing so much at the line of scrimmage, right. Getting to different plays at the line of scrimmage. And he really changed kind of modern football in that regard. Certainly Brady was a part of this, too. And there's this, you know, used to. Back in the day, the play caller just called a play. You. You went in the huddle, you said the play call. You got up to the line, scrimmage, and you just ran it down, said, hut. Like that was it, right? Like that. That was it. And then this whole, like, slow thing started that there'd be, like, an asterisk on a play, like, all week, right? Like, this is a play. We love it. But if they're, you know, if they're going to blitz the safety off the. The. The weak side, like, this play sucks. We got to get out of this play. And so they're like. Then you begin to have these plays. They're like, as a quarterback, that's how I viewed it. Like, it had an asterisk on it. So, like, the play call came in. You know, you came in and called it. And I always knew that, like, an asterisk. So, like, I walked to the line and was like, you're very aware that, like, this play's great, except if the safety's over here, and if he's over here, then we're getting to this play. And then it just kept evolving, and it got to the point where, like, Peyton, like, you know, you. You'd have two, three, four play calls built into, like, a package. And so you're going to get up to the line of scrimmage, and you knew, you know, based off what the defense was presenting, what play to get to, right? Like, abcd, essentially. Okay. And. And, you know, and you would call it in that order. Like, hopefully it got designed that they usually play cover three from a statistical standpoint, the most on first down. So we're going to call the COVID three beater, and then they also play cover two next, so that B would be the COVID two beater. Then they put in this pressure third. Then we're going to call C would be like. They would all correspond from a statistical standpoint. So it took the guessing game from the play caller out. So he could just call this package. Peyton would walk up, right? And then this became the chess match at the line. Because, you know, Bill Belichick's Patriots defense was not trying to show that they were playing cover three. Peyton's trying to get them to show what they're doing. So he's getting up there and he's, you know, why 80. Why they said hut. You know, blue 40, blue 40 said hot, hot, hot, right? And like, nothing's happening. He's just trying to get the safeties to show a little something. All these little. He's taking in all these little pieces of information all over, right? The front, the. The linebacker's placements or the corners pressed or off, where the safeties. And he's adding all this up and he's washed off. That's like that. You always hear quarterbacks watching film. That's why they're watching film all week, is to ID all this stuff. Because again, this is all happening in a couple seconds, right? So you get up, he IDS it, Boom. Hey, I know based off all my film review. And then what the pieces information I just saw there in cover, too. Let's get to the COVID two beater. He calls it Omaha. Omaha said hut. He rolls, right? Like, that's the. That's the synopsis of it, and that's playing quarterback at a high level.

Can you. Can you be an introvert and be a good quarterback from a communication standpoint, or you have to be extroverted and. And verbose and, like, can you be a really quiet, good quarterback?

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I, you know, a bit of a bit. A bit of the character at the line of scrimmage, though. It's exactly that. It's like playing a role. Like, you have to played. You're playing quarterback there. Like, in that sense, like, Justin Herbert is. Is a little bit of an introvert. You know, from what I understand, like, he's not. But at the line of scrimmage, like, that's his position. It's like, it's part of your. Like, you're just. That's not who you are. But, like, that's your job in that regard. Like, your job as a quarterback is to communicate very clearly on all kinds of things. And, you know, it starts with the huddle. Like, you're the guy that caused the play in the huddle, right? Like the 10 guys. You have to clearly communicate in a loud, hostile Place what everybody has to do. And often times all week, right, you've called this play on, you called it on the practice week on Wednesday. So and so screwed this up. Well, you like bank that. You banked that on Wednesday and then like on Friday on this play, like so and so screwed this up. You bank that. So now on Sunday afternoon, you step into the huddle, you call that play and you, you give reminders. Then Rick, you remind both those guys, hey, don't forget this. You got this. Don't forget this. You got this. Like all these little things that you've just been accumulating. And you also, right, like as soon as that play comes in, you know, like just what I said, all those asterisk marks, all those like the, the what if, the checklist, the deduction, you get up to the line. And again, they're all compartmentalized, right? Because like, first and second down is its own animal. Third down or is its own thing, red zone, two minute short yardage, goal line. Like football as a quarterback's broken down into all these situational things. And so they're all very different. And then the corresponding defense, like, you have to, it has to trigger like the traits that they do, right? Because playing the Baltimore Ravens is very different than playing like the Chicago Bears. And like how they, what they do in short yardage, what they do in goal line, third down, end a half, end of game, like, that all has to, those all mean something to you, right? And then again, step in the huddle, calling that play. And then this is the tricky part again to go to communication. Like, if you're on the road, you know, you're playing, you're playing a deep Detroit and they're going nuts. You don't have cadence. You don't get to go up there and go, anybody said h. Like you don't get to do any, that you're back there just lifting your leg and, and the, the defenders know you don't have anything. And so like they're, they're like, even they're, they're more aggressive with their disguise, I would say, right? Like they know it. They're just staring at the play clock, right? Countdown. Because they know you got to, you're going to snap it under 10. They know. So they, they're just holding it and you can't get as much information out of them. And that kind of offense becomes really hard to do on the road with a good defense. And that's kind of this chess match of like getting them to show some things, getting Them not to. And then you have to go clearly communicate if you're going to change a play at the line of scrimmage and then all of a sudden you got to bring in like non verbal hand signals. That's where you see a lot of these QBs. Aaron Rodgers does a ton of it, trying to be discreet as possible. Peyton did a bunch of it fake signals. You know he's faking like he's changing a play. Sometimes you don't even know if he is or not.

You know Alex. So a couple things just to you know, go through it. Do you. Are there players who like aren't smart enough to play with Peyton or somebody who makes all these changes? Because what I'm trying to figure out is like that. I mean that is a. That is a complicated algorithm of communication, right? If this then that you know, know if I'm going to call this year. And so like. Or does everyone just kind of rise to the occasion because they really care?

I think for the most part I mean if you're playing professional football like your, your, your floor is pretty high meant you know from a, from a.

Football there guys that don't make it to the league because of that.

Well yeah, absolutely. Without a doubt. When you hear processing and like now this is the big thing. I mean it used to be the wonder lake. Now it's called this. God, I'm forgetting the name of it. The Q2 test or something. And it's all. And they do it for every player. Like it doesn't matter what position you play. And it's all to figure out your processing. Right. How do you process information and no like the bet like when Harbaugh came. Jim Harbaugh came to the San Francisco 49ers from Stanford. And this is. He had really built on this because what was one of his advantages at Stanford is I think they were smarter than everybody. So they would build these insane packages like game plans that were 300 plays and you were calling four to five plays like together sometimes three, four, five players. This killed to this and kill by the mains mean switch alerted to this and like and they would get up to the line and use their cadence and like that was their strategic advantage was we're going to just outsmart you. And Greg Roman offensive coordinator like in Jim they like they put. They built this and it was, it was so the volume was ridiculously big for. Especially for college and like even for by NFL standards it was so high. Like I'll never forget when they came the game plans Were so big. Like I would. And the play. The play calls were so long. Like, when you're calling four plays together, you can't memorize that. Like, as a quarterback. And like, I'd always. You take part in memorizing plays, like, week to week. Like, as soon as I would hear the first few words of a play call, like, I already knew it and I could be stepping in and calling it. Like with Jim, in this offense, you're calling four plays. Three, four plays together. Like, you can't. It's. It's a full paragraph. Like, you can't. You can't memorize that. So we had these wristbands, right? Like, you all seen the play call wristbands? Well, they had like the triple sided ones that folded open, so it was literally three sides. The tiniest little print you've ever seen. Three calls. But theirs were so big that you had to have two. So I knew you didn't want to be an idiot wearing them on right and left. So you would put one on the center's waistband because that's like the way you did. Yeah, so he had three. He had three panels of wristband because that had all the X. And it was just like, it was so ridiculous. And, and no, like, they were professionals. When he got to the Niners, that really struggled with that.

Yeah.

That much volume.

For anybody.

I mean, for sure. And you're also the left tackle, right? I'm just giving an example here. Like, who's going against, like, Julius Peppers, right? And we're getting up to the line. We've just called four plays in the huddle. It's Monday Night Football, right? Like, you get up to the line, we got to like, alert, alert, alert. We got to. He's like, oh, shoot, what is. It's the third play. Okay, it's this. And then like all of a sudden you got to remember the cadence after that, you got to snap off the ball and then, oh, yeah, you got a block. Julius Peppers, right? Like, it's. It's just a lot of mental juggling. And there were for sure professionals that really, really struggled with that much volume and then that. And again, this is like, modern offense is going to this, right? Get to the best play scenario. We're not just rolling the dice and calling a play at a whim and throwing darts at a dartboard kind of.

Thing in post football for these guys who have. That's an amazing skill set. That's an amazing skill that, like, people are not born with, obviously. Where could that translate in a post Football, corporate setting, a tech setting, any setting. Like, where could you utilize that skill, being able to process that much information honestly?

The funny thing is, Shane, is that like, I think you can. It's like anywhere. It's just a matter of if the person would actually. If it would translate. Like you're saying like, did you guys ever watch the Wire? The TV show?

Yeah, of course. Of course.

So there's a scene in the Wire where there's this kid who's having trouble with math, right? And then they explain it to him by being like, what if this person buys this? What if this person buys this and you know, and all this stuff and he goes through and he just nails the count. Like just nails the exact amount of money, right? And he's like, how the fuck can you do that? And you can't do this math. He's like, you fuck up the count, you get fucked up. And it's just like he cared. He was like, I am motivated. So that I think Shane, first question would be like, would somebody be able to do that in a non football setting? But the thing that's so crazy, I don't know, I mean everywhere. But the thing that's crazy is what you're describing. Like that breaks the AI right now. Like the AI can't do multi step reasoning the way you're going through it. Like if you were like, if this, then this, then this, if this, then this, like it actually can't do it, right? And so you're like, damn. Like those that, you know, it's not obvious that you would think that like some lineman on a professional football team could like remember and you know, prosecute each of those things. So I don't know, Shane. I mean like, I didn't even know that they knew how to do that up until this, you know, 10 seconds ago.

The best part is I got the line, you know, when this is happening, obviously, hopefully as the quarterback, you're like, oh, we always talk. You would always talk about like over communicate, right? As a quarterback, over communicate. Like you couldn't be clear enough, right? Like be loud enough, like, you know what I'm saying? And like you'd always, you could always, you know, 11 guys, you got to work as a team, right? So like all the linemen, there'd be chatter like when you change the play because like, and you would always rely on like the buddy next to you is what I'm getting at. Like again, right? Like, you know, like they would always help each other cadence play. What we're getting to with what their responsibility is always kind of a part of the system. But to me, that processing and then to like kind of. I just touched on it a little bit with the quarterback, right? Like, I think that's one of the cool mysteries of the NFL and that's this high whole idea of like, what makes a NFL quarterback. And it. There's so many layers to it. There's so many layers to it and that it's not defined by like the combine, right? It's not your height, your weight, your 40, how far you can throw a ball, how many miles per hour you can throw it. Like. And I think there's such a correlation to the founder for this Ravi. Like, any Joe Schmo, like, can get the numbers on something and be like, oh yeah, that's great. Or not like. But that's not what makes like, great investments at all. And that's not how you draft a quarterback, right? Like, it's. You have to know the motivation. Like, how well like, how motivated this guy is. Like, how what. What drives him. Is he gonna. Because it's gonna be shitty along the way. Like there, there are gonna be bumps in the road. And like, do you have the, like, the resilience, the relentlessness to like keep pushing through and then like the processing too, like, part of that. Can you handle all this compartmental. And they have not found to this day, like, in the NFL world, like, from a, from a personnel standpoint, how do you identify that? Nobody knows. It's like still this great mystery, right? And it's like, how does Brock Purdy and Tom Brady fall, right? Like, they're. These guys are unbelievable, but they have no idea how to find this and, and, and identify it. You know, meanwhile, any like, you know, fantasy football lover in their basement, those know at the same time, like, Josh Allen's six' five, he's 240 pounds. He runs at four five, like, you know what I'm saying? He's got a cannon. Like, but like, it. It. I don't know. So I just find it fascinating and I think that kind of correlates in, in some ways to like, the hunt for the founder, in my opinion, for sure.

And Shane, I have so many questions for you on communications too, but just on the founder side. Yeah, Alex, like, you know, people have been studying this for years, for year, decades, right? And think about the amount of money that's available if you can figure out who these incredible founders are, right? I mean, you're talking about billions of dollars that are available. And so, yeah, People don't know yet. There's all these words that people use to describe. I would tell you the people that I respect the most, who kind of, I think, are the best at this, they say a few things. One, they're like, there's a lot more feel, there's a lot more art than science, right? So, like, they. They. They just recognize that. They embrace it. And so a lot of what they're trying to do is spend a lot of time with the person because they're just like, I don't know what all the things are, but I can try to see if it reveals itself through a lot of time. So they recognize that it's more art than science. The second thing is, if you gave them one word, it's actually related to what you said. It's like persistence, perseverance, like the. The one. The word that people tend to come back to is grit. Not in like a hokey way, but just in like a. Look, it is just really fucking hard to run this race for 10 or 20 years. It's really different. And you're going to get knocked down over and over again. Mark Zuckerberg has this famous interview from two years ago where he's being the CEO and founder of Facebook, basically is waking up every morning and getting punched in the stomach. When I look at my email now, at the time, Mark Zuckerberg was worth $80 billion. Do you see what I'm saying? He could be on a beat, like, he could do anything. And he's like, no, I choose to wake up every morning and get punched in the stomach. And so you're like, okay, so there's this grit aspect. But I will tell you my observation, which, again, like, I don't know if it's right, but it's weird. They have. The best founders, have this combination of, like, they know where to be stubborn and they know where to be flexible. Like, they are not either stubborn or flexible, but they're extraordinarily stubborn on certain things, and they don't give a shit when anybody else says, they think for themselves, whatever, but then they adapt like crazy on other things. So a lot of them are introverted to begin with, but they learn that they have to be amazing communicators, and they just decide that that's worth listening to, to somebody and to get better at it. But on certain decisions, they don't care what the data says. They're like, I'm doing it my way. This is. I don't care. I'm doing it this way. And like, it's the judgment of knowing where to be stubborn and knowing where to adapt that I don't know how to calculate, I don't know how to figure out, you know, other than just like tons of time with a person. But that is something that I think really separates out the best founders leaders early on is like, yeah, like, it's just extremely extreme stubbornness combined with extreme adaptability. And that's just like a weird combination.

I loved what you said, Alex. Now it got me thinking about the word chatter. And chatter is the own in. Is only in sports. All right? No one ever talks about chatter. And so I grew up, you know, it made me smile that, like, that was my dad, Big Ed Badier, who was our, you know, the best little league coach ever. He talked about chatter every single day, right? And so if you never played sports, what chatter is, is if we were playing a little league game or we're 10 years old, it's supporting your pitcher. All right? So Jake, Jake, Barry's on the mound. Hey, Jake, you got it, man. You got it. Hey, hey, you know this guy? Get him out, get him out. He's nothing. He's nothing. He's nothing. You know, just like little, like, hits of, like, confidence in your teammates. And so when the worst kids at bat, my. The only time my dad ever raised his voice, and he's the only black guy in Birmingham, Michigan, so everyone was kind of like, just like scared of him a little bit. But he was, he was the best guy. He's like, more chatter, more chatter. So. Hey, hey, Josh, you got it, man. Come on, come on, get. You know, double here, double here. You got it, man. And just like it was constant, constant. When it was too quiet, my dad would say, more chatter, more chatter, more chatter. So, like, I grew up just always talking, always communicating, always pumping up my teammates. Hey, man, you got this. You got. Hey, don't shake it off, man. Next one, next one. You got eight. And it was like that, the first inning to the six inning. And so like, I, I am a high energy person when I, when it comes to sports. And so I'm always touching, I'm always slapping. High five, I'm always giving, but butt slaps, right? And like, when I think about my professional career, like that was the hallmark of my career, chatter. You know what I learned from my dad in kindergarten about the importance of chatter, of. Of constant communication, constant support, constant, you know, trust building. That was why I was able to play 13 years and, and be a glue guy. I think that's like Quintessential glue guy trait is. And chatter takes different forms, but in sports, it's very. It's very obvious. And so I love that term chatter, because it brings me back to just. Just saying something to let people know that you're there. And I think, you know, you know, Ravi, you tell me if I'm wrong. It's the most difficult thing. Thing for young people to embrace. Okay, so, like, our kids all play sports. How silent are their games?

Silent.

And so I coach basketball for two years. I'm like, guys, you got to talk every play.

You gotta.

The point guard know that, like, he's clear or picks coming left or right. Like, it has to happen every play, every second. And again it goes. I think it goes back to the Instagram generation here where talking is uncool.

And.

And they want to present this thing where, like, I'm good because I'm just built that way. And like, oh, man. Like, you gotta, like, you gotta communicate. And communicate may sound super corny and talking maybe corny, but that is, like, the secret to success, you know, in. In any. In anything you do in life. And so I'm. I'm. I love that word chatter. I want a T shirt that says chatter. More chatter. Because that's the basis of so much in. In life and so important.

No doubt. And, you know, there's. Funny, there's even, like, some science behind this stuff. Like, I couldn't. Because you're saying that I can't help but think. I'm always fascinated by this. For everybody that watches basketball out there, when a guy bricks a free throw and then he still gives high, the whole team gives him fives right on the court. Because they know statistically it's, like, proven he's more likely to make the next shot, right? Like, that touch, that positive energy is more likely, like, again, statistically, that the next shot has a better chance of going in, right? And like, that's. That's crazy to think about that. That simple little fives, right? The. The behind the back fives. Like, I'm gonna. I have a better chance of making this next shot.

That's such a good stat, Alex. And also, I think we go back, we always talk about this stuff, but like I told you, the. This idea that I like of Tyler Cowan, elevate other people's ambition. We've talked about Shane's thing of elevate other people's resilience. This is just elevating other people's confidence right through, like, I'm there with you, and I actually think the role of chatter. Shane, I totally agree. Like, one of my favorite. One of my things that I was most sad about when my kids stopped playing baseball was baseball naturally has the most chatter. It's still not uncool to have the chatter in baseball, you know what I'm saying? But I think there is just gold in the, in the chatter. I mean, think about it. I actually think you have a lot of chatter with your friends. Just like, why do we have a text chain, right? Why. Why do we do that? It's just to, like, have some ongoing chatter. Like, hey, look, I see you. I'm here, I'm with you, I got you. And so I think that's a big deal. And then I also think, Alex, that the other thing that's nice about the chatter point is, like, there's like lateral discipline, which helps you keep people in mind, but there's also, like, lateral help. Like, it's easier to hear something sometimes from like a peer, right, rather than from, you know, like, I know you're not the boss when you're the quarterback, but in this parlance, like, you're kind of like the boss, right, Versus, like the person right next to you is just your peer. And they're saying it and, and it just carries a lot of weight, you know, when they say it.

And chatter keeps you present. You. You can't provide chatter unless you know exactly what's going on, right? If you're in Space Mountain. And no, you can't, you can't have chatter, right? And so there's more chatter. Just more chatter. Hey, what's going on? What's going on? You know, it's that touch point I love the story about. Again, chatter can, can take a lot of forms. I love the story about Phil Jackson coaching Scotty Pippen. And what Phil learned about Scotty is that when he was talking to him, he was much more effective when he gave him a light touch on the shoulder to let him know, like, hey, I'm here. And he could be, you know, cursing him out. He's got, you got to do this. You got to do this better. But he, he knew when he touched him on the shoulder and gave him feedback that the feedback was taken more because Scotty felt like, again, psychological safety was, was built in. Now, look, in 2024, we don't need people touching each other when they're given feedback.

All right?

That's a lot. That's a lawsuit. But different ways of creating that, that chatter, you know, maybe from a non verbal standpoint, eye Contact or asking follow up questions or repeating what the other person is saying. Like all those things build so much in a team setting, in a coaching setting, in a peer setting. And it sounds so innocuous and like, you know, I never hear anybody talk about it, but it's like you said, Robbie, there's gold, there's gold in those.

Interactions to take it to like again the team, like the, the Shane, you know, it's like you come in in the morning, like Revy, if you got something weird on or something, or you come in and like if you're just a little off, like your teammates do not let it slide. Like it is getting called out immediately and there is a little bit of it. Like it is like they see you, you know, so like you're taking it and you're taking your ribbing which. And again it's every single day and a little bit of it even. Like I, I enjoy it in sports with the nicknames in, in like locker rooms. Everybody, like you get everybody's nicknames and it is a little bit of this. Like it's just your name at work, like that's your, you know, for your team, so to speak. And so again, I think a little bit that scene and sometimes like again it's in jest, you gotta be able to laugh at yourself. But like I think there's a part of that too that is, that's a part of chat.

What were the nicknames for Alex Smith? Nine letters.

You know, I got, yeah, no, I got lots. Chopsticks was one because I wore 11 and so they looked like one. So I got called Chopsticks. I got called. This was the worst one. When I got drafted. I got drafted in the era when rookies made like a boatload of money. Like so I, it wasn't the slotted thing that, that like we adopted from the NBA. So when I, I, when I signed my contract, I was like the fourth highest paid player in the league. Really? And I hadn't done. Oh dude, it was ridiculous. Yeah, ridiculous. And, and so they called me and I was 20, I'm this kid. And so I, they call, I got called Dollar Bill my name and like Richie Rich. Like that was like kind of like. But Dollar Bill, like was one my first few years. Hey, what's up Dollar Bill? Like that like walking around the locker room and which was like, just added to the weight I was feeling at the time, you know, like. But yeah, but like it just, that's locker rooms, right?

Nothing sacred. The only thing sacred in locker rooms Robbie. Wives, girlfriends, and kids, all right? Everything else is on the table. Everything, right? So if you don't come correct, you know, you're gonna hear about it, and so you. You learn. But, you know, again, you gotta worry when they stop talking about you. So.

Yeah, that's the thing, right? That's the trust.

Oh, and, like, no one. No one even mentions how terrible your. Your drip is. Like, okay. Exactly. People off or I'm in trouble here.

That was, like, one of the beauties I always thought of Andy Reid. Is he. He, like. And again, these aren't things you can, like, talk about. Like, hey, I want more chatter. Like, but, like, a little bit of it. He gave everybody nicknames, right? He was funny. He cracked jokes. He laughed at himself. And so it just kind of created it. Like, it creates an environment there where, like, everybody can laugh at themselves, and everybody cracks jokes. And, like, you know, like, you're getting on the team, playing. That was, like, gold material because, like, everybody's wearing the craziest shit, you know? And, like, somebody's gonna wear something totally stupid and not hear the end of it. And, like, then their picture is gonna be up in the next team meeting, like, to start the meeting.

This, like, makes me happy because I feel like some of these things that you guys are saying are, like, hallmarks of places that I've worked or in moments and where. When I've worked that have been there and they're not the same, but they're. They're the same. Same, like, spirit, which is, like. I give nicknames to everybody. You know, when I'm working with them, it's just, like, natural to do that. And if they have a short name, I give them a long name. If they have a long name, I give them a short name, whatever it is. But you're just, like. It's the whole thing of, like, I see you, then the same thing of, like, you just gotta. You gotta, like, you know, let people know you see them and whatever that is. And in this case, I think, like, the Andy Reid example, starting from the top, like, that's, like, this makes me happy because it's stuff that I think that people I really care about do naturally. And I try to do naturally, but, like, you know, I'm glad to know, like, works. It's all from, like, growing up in team sports, you know? Like, that's just. That's just what you do.

What's your nickname?

What?

You know, I have different ones that people call me, so my full name is Ravinder. And so, you know, Obviously, I go by Rev. No one in my life has ever called me Revener ever. But, like, you know, I have people at work that'll just call me Revinder. Just like, you know, to like. I don't know, just to, like, say something, right? Just to have something. I. And then somebody shortened that to Vinnie on text today, and then they know I hate it. And like, on text, all of a sudden, Sagar and Will and a couple of these other guys are like, hey, yo, Vinnie. And I'm just like you, man. But it, like, it works, right? Like, think about how absurd that. Nothing to do with my name now, but, like, you know, there's that. I see you writing it down that you're going to. You're going to call me that.

Make this putt, Vinnie. Make this.

Yeah, I mean, it's just. I can't, you know, dumb that I told you. And then, you know, a lot of times, funny enough, I get called my initials a fair amount. Like rkg. You know, people will say that, but, like, like, you know, it doesn't matter if the nickname is good or not. It just matters that someone kind of cares enough to have one for you, you know, And I think that there. It's like a sign of a relationship, like a relationship between the two of you that there's like some name that, you know, you call each other and it's different than your regular name.

When I was at Duke, you know, Coach K was like a stickler about communication more than anything. Like, effort was kind of given. All right? So, like, Coach K never had to say, guys, we got to play hard. It was like, if you didn't play hard, he didn't. The one thing that really separated was. Was communication, and he was such a stickler about communication and. And chatter every single day. Now, like the. At Duke, you know, the chatter was more directed. And so we had a rule at every stoppage of. Of play, we had to come together in a huddle. Again, the touch aspect. And we had to remind each other, okay, what defense we were in, all right, what the next play was, what the foul situation was late in the game, okay, how many timeouts we had. So everybod what the situation was. There was never a time where we're like, oh, how many timeouts we have, you know, or where's. Where's the possession era going. Like, we were expected to be present and. And connect every single time that we could. Three throws, out of bounds, yada, yada, yada. And so it was ingrained in us you know, some of our toughest days of practice, we had to run these things called 17 across, which is 17 widths of the, of the, of the basketball court in one minute, right? Which is tough if we didn't talk enough. So Coach K said, guys, we can either run or we can talk. We're not talking today on the line, right? And so we were like psycho psycho about communication. And it was, again, it wasn't corny. It was what we did every single day. And so like, we were. I never forget, I was a senior captain and every day I was so worried, like, are we ready to practice? Because if we weren't ready to practice, we had to run, right? So I'm in, sitting there stretching, saying, andre Buck, you know, hey, are you ready, man? You know, Andy Borman, come on, man. How you feel, man? You energized.

Let's go.

You know, Casey Sanders, man, what's going on, man? Big practice today. And so like, that was my shtick every single day for the 20 minute stretching period. And like, I'm sure I annoyed the out of my teammates, but I was, I just wanted guys to be awake, be present and again, get that chatter going. And so one of the best things Coach K taught us is that communication can be a weapon in a good way. And communication and talk can be intimidating. So I love that. I took this and I did this my entire career. And so we'd obviously go through the scouting report before the game and sort of know what other teams are running. But you know, to a man, Coach K said, guys, we're going to go over these plays, but it doesn't really give a know. It doesn't. We don't give a damn what other team does. If we do what we do and do it hard, smart, together, like, we can live with the results. Okay, so it's not about like memorizing other team's plays, but we're walking through these things. So, you know, but whenever the other team calls out a play, I want you to echo it. And I want five guys to echo the play call. I don't even. It doesn't even matter if you know the player or not. So if we're playing Clemson and they're going, you know, two up floppy, two up floppy, everyone's yelling, too hot floppy. Too out floppy, too out floppy. Guys, you know, all of a sudden they're saying, oh, dude, they know our play, they know our place. And you know, if you know that the opponent knows what you're going to do, you're not Going to be as aggressive because you're already thinking like, how are they going to defend this? And that hesitation, that hesitation just by this much may make the difference in them making the play and not making the play. So I became obsessed with, I realized like how powerful that was. And so again, it's more chatter. I'm talking to my teammates, I'm calling out plays. Well then I realized like, well, these plays aren't like rocket science. I'm just going to memorize the place. And so when I got the NBA, like the play, you know, play sheet isn't as big as Harbaugh and Greg Romans, but you know, there are a lot of calls. But I knew there were a few keys and if you know what a floppy is and you know what a two up is and you could piece together what the play is. And so I'm yelling out, you know, all these plays to my teammates, hey, you know, LeBron coming at you, coming at you, coming at you. Mario, high pick, high pick, high pick, high pick. And just trying to create some doubt and some tension in the other team. And so I became like, I'm super passed to these coaches. Hated, they hated me. They looked at me as this like just nerdy guy, brown nosing guy who just trying to steal their calls. And so like some coaches would like try to hide up their calls in their. I wouldn't see and I would come around and look at it. And my favorite, my favorite all time was, was Greg Popovich. Well, I love Pop and I wish I could have played for him. And he was obviously a former Air Force guy and worked in the CIA, so he loved all the spy. And so we, we had this game where I, I would always call out his plays. And I played against Pop, I don't know, 40, 50 times in my career. So I knew their playbook and got to a point where, you know, regular season game, Pop's calling out a play and I'm like, pop, Pop, Pop. You don't have that play. I know all your plays. And Pop's like, yes, we do, we do have that play. I'm like, no, you don't. He's like, you're right, we don't have that play. You know, it was one of the purest moments of competition of all time. And, and so after, after the game, Paul came up, gave me a big hug and he's like, you're such a pain in the ass baddie. I hate playing against you, but, but I love you.

This is pure curiosity, Shane. What percent of, of like in a flow of a game, I mean, I'm, I know in big situations probably more, but like just in the flow of the game, I mean, is the coach calling to play every time the point guard brings the ball up the court? Like, not in a, not in a fast break scenario.

That's way different. Today's modern NBA is all read and react. And so when I play, you know, Jeff Van Gundy was last of the Mohicans. He had a playbook that was that thick. And again, they were all based on a couple keywords and you sort of knew what they, what the, what the action was. But now it's all, you know, read and react, dribble, handoff action, there's more concepts and you want to keep spacing. And there's some rules. If, you know, coming out of timeouts, coaches draw up a play and that's where the coaches, you know, feel they earn their money. Late in the game, there might be a couple sets, but you'd be shocked. Like now in today's NBA, like how, you know, coaches call a timeout, then it's like, all right, LeBron, just go one on one and create something. Time out for that. And so way, there's way less structure. And as a result, I think defensive game plans much more difficult to guard these guys today because they're super athletic, super skilled, and you get them in space. So the defensive principles that I live by and grew up with are very, very different than what these guys have to deal with now.

When does an NBA like a good NBA coach, okay, not a bad one, a good NBA coach. When does their communication matter most, right? Because if your point is like it's not in the timeout to draw up the play, you know, when is it that their communication matters and what do they do that is effective or not?

Well, you're always putting, you know, money in the trust bank, right? And that from day one and showing that you're competent, right? That you draw a play up, that you can make an adjustment during it during a game. And so all of a sudden you are in the midst of a seven game losing streak and you're going down the road to play the Celtics, all right? And you got to come up with something, right? You're not making something up then to all of a sudden get you out of the winning, the losing streak, right? And so it's just a constant building of the credibility and the competence that the small cues guys pick up on. And they know like this guy, like Eric's bolster is like Unbelievable. And the amount he thinks about the game, it's not like he draws up these unbelievable plays. You're like, oh my gosh, he's a great coach because he drew up this amazing play that always scores. It's just the overall feel like, okay, this guy's driving the ship. And I feel really good. So obviously in the playoffs and Alex, you know, like, everything is heightened and there are very, very few secrets in, in the playoffs. They, they over scout you, you know, they know tendencies, they, they know, you know, wrinkles on wrinkles. And so, you know, the great coaches, again, you built that, that trust and that competency. So if they say, okay guys, we need to go to a wrinkle, to a wrinkle, to a wrinkle, say, okay, yeah, they thought about this. They know what they're doing and it's going to work, you know, and especially those late fourth quarter situations, tie game, they have to draw up a play or make a substitution. You're not second guessing it. So again, it's the elimination of doubt.

That makes a lot of sense.

SP is a, like he's an exes and O's guy, right. Kind of his background.

Yeah, he's a video guy. You know, you talk about, you know, feedback and film session, marathon film sessions. And so, you know, the type of, you know, you're used to after you're used to, you're used to like 8 hours of film in a day.

Sure.

We're just simple basketball players. You don't have that.

We don't have.

We're like caveman. We don't have the, the, the attention span to sit there for very long. So after like 45 minutes, we're like, oh, let's go. Like, come on, let's go.

And so when you play once a week, you know, it's like all week you just, you meet to have meetings. You have meetings to talk about your meetings that you're going to have. And like, you know, just it's watch by the end of the week, Shane, like take an opponent's team, you know, say I'm playing the Colts that Sunday. We're playing the Colts like by the end of the week, by Saturday. I've seen every play, every play certainly of their last four to five games. And if we played them like also earlier in the year or the year before, like eight times over, like it's, it's obnoxious. So like by Saturday night when you're going through like the walkthrough meeting and like plays come up, you'll you'll use this, like, you know, as you're kind of going through your first 15 and these scenarios again, and it's like, you just seen these so many times, but that's part of the deal, right? Like, you want it ingrained in your head.

The one coach that had an amazing skill that I played for and hall of Fame coach, I loved him. Rick. Rick Adelman. And, you know, we've talked about, like, over, communicate. Over communicate, like, always have chatter, have connection, yada, yada, yada, yada. Rick almost had. And Rick was super chill, all right? He was. He was the one coach that gave more ownership to his team than any other coach I played for. And his philosophy was, like, guys, there's only so much I can say. And so, like, I probably talk too much sometimes. And so sometimes he call a timeout. You know, team's on a 80 run, he call a timeout. All right? Everyone comes over to the bench, and we're waiting for him to say something. Then he would sit there, and he would just bounce his clipboard on the floor for 30 seconds. Just bounce it. Wouldn't say anything. Buzzer would sign to go back to the court. He could. He'd get up and go get some water. The message delivered like, there's nothing I can say right now. Just, like, play, play. And so I never had a coach that. That had the confidence enough to just call a timeout and not say anything. You know, most coaches call timeout. I'm gonna get my money's worth. I'm gonna give you feedback. I'm gonna get you out of this. And it's. It's really, like, a. An amazing skill to have, and you have to be super secure and have an amazing level of humility to be able to do that.

Like, as far as coaches communicating, like, I always feel like, again, in football, there were, like, X's and O's coaches that were, like, very. These are, like, what you would think about as offensive and defensive coordinators. They're very in the minutia of, like, how can I get you us a slight advantage with a play call, right? Or a design? And then most head coaches, honestly, like, not necessarily, like, it can be both, but you very much have to be a little bit more of, like, again, like, the culture builder. And Urban Meyer was not an X's and O's guy. Like, he knew it. He knew it on offense, but he had never really been a coordinator, and he very much was just kind of, again, this team culture thing. And. But, like, how do you do that and communicate that. And for me, one of the things I love is, like, we would come in after games, the day after a game, and he'd make the entire team come in and watch special teams. And so the whole team's in there. Like, again, I have no idea what kickoff return and punt return. Like, I don't know. I haven't sat in their meetings. I don't know what. But, like, that wasn't the point. The point, though. And he would sit in there and he would highlight these, like, selflessness plays, right? Like, the guy running down, he didn't make the tackle, but, like, the guy running down that did his job and took on like two guys and it freed up, you know, his buddy to the left of him that, like, made the play. And he would also just. And then he would cherry pick plays from the game, these high effort plays. And like, look at this maniacal effort right from this play. And he would just. And he would just highlight it again in front of the whole team. And it was like, every single. Every single week, this was the deal. And then every so often he'd put a loaf on, right? And like, he wouldn't even say anything. Like, the loaf would go on and he would just have the, like the, the laser pointing to the guy. And like, he wouldn't say a word. And he'd be like, look. He'd be like, look at this. And the whole freaking team, a hundred guys have just been watching high effort plays and like, guys selling out and sacrificing for the team. And then he throws up. And you're that guy, like, in that. You know what I'm saying? You're sitting in that chair with 100 of your teammates around you, and he throws up and puts the laser. Yeah. And you just. It's the worst feeling in the world. And there was such power in that, right? Like, when you talk about how do you create selflessness and like these things again, that, like, team building and culture and like, it was just this. He never. He didn't say it right. Like, oh, we got to be a high effort team or we got to be selfless. Like, that wasn't. But like, again, it was just this exercise. It was like. And he would do it in practice. He was like, it just. It was like religious. Like, we would come in and this was the deal. And he would just again, showcase these, what it looked like, right? And then, then every so often he would, like, he would put it on and just like a laser on it. And he wouldn't Say a word.

But that's the thing, Alex, like, which is. It's so good. But, like, this is the part, if you go back to, like, our relentlessness discussion, the best, like, leaders or coaches or whatever, they are relentless, too, right? But they're relentless about building the culture. They're relentless about communicating. Shane is relentless about chatter. Like, you have to do it every fucking day, and then it, like, you know, arrives by osmosis, right? And then by doing it every day, you earn the right in those few moments where you do need to, like, God damn it, we got to do it this way. People listen. But I love the urban stories, right? Because I can feel it. I'm not even there. And this is from 20 years ago for you. And I can imagine what it would feel like on the play that I didn't hustle to, like, have the laser point at me and all my teammates, seeing that I let them down. And then I think it's particularly strong of him. There's this concept I like of, like, celebrate the work. A friend of mine says he's like, look, don't worry so much about, you know, the outcome, the P and L, the valuation, all this stuff. Like, if just, like, you got to celebrate the work, right? Because that's the only, like, unit of measurement that's going to be there no matter what. And, like, the special teams play where the guy's, like, running down the field and creating an opportunity, that's celebrating the work, you know, and then people want to do more of it. But I think that's, like, an important aspect of communication, too. It's like, what are you. You got to communicate all the time. And it's also like, what are you communicating about?

Why are we here? You know, great leaders remind their people every day while they're there. The second you assume that people know why they're there and that what the. What the. What the mission is that you've lost.

Say it till you're tired of hearing yourself saying it and then say it again. That's the only. That's the communication advice you get.

I think the cool thing is, like, ways to reinforce it, though, because you're not getting up there, like, pounding your fist on a. You know, like a podium, saying these things, like, you're just reinforcing them such a different way. I was listening to this thing on. On Frank Blake that you sent me about reverse. He's the former CEO of. Of Home Depot, and this idea of, like, the reverse pyramid chain. So instead of it, you thinking of, like, the CEO and the head coach or GM being at the top and like gravity just mysteriously funneling down. It's like this idea of like, no, flip it. And actually big organizations, it's the opposite. Like there is no gravity that helps. In fact, getting to your. Getting to like the end components, like the, the big. The big flat part of the pyramid that's on top is actually like hard. And so how do you reach those? And like in Home Depot's example, it was like the sales associates on the floor and their interaction with customers, right? Like that's. That was like at the top and the most important. And so how do we, how do we communicate to them and reinforce this? And it was constantly through stories. So like every time they got together was kind of the same thing that he would collect all these stories through like kind of middle management in the hierarchy of the, of the. The corporation. But like by name. These associates would constantly. These stories of great customer service are going out of their way to do something, right? Like something above and beyond that. Certainly that they wanted the company to resemble that he just constantly told these stories to everybody, right, and, and recognized these people and that he would write 200 letters a week to these associates by. By name with specifics of this thing that they did, right? And it was just like a little handwritten note and he wrote. He was like, every single one of them was like handwritten from him. And that again, it like you're saying like 200 notes a week. God, it's got to be, you know, monotonous. And like, you think you would just try to like, fake it and have somebody else do it. And it was like, it was like absolute. No, he did it. And again, it was a way to reinforce what they were about, right? And what they were about was this interaction between. At the core of their business was like the sales associate with the customer. And that's what our business is about. And so how do we communicate that? And it was like through storytelling and examples and certainly from coaches. It could be the visual of a film.

Well, dude, the thing about Frank Blake, just to. You know, there's like a few points here. One, people don't know this. Home Depot is a $300 billion company, okay? Home Depot is a fucking huge company. So people think of it as like some retailer. It's like, no, no, no. $300 billion company. So one, like, you should listen when Home Depot talks, okay? To most leaders, when they say like, we're an upside down pyramid or any of that stuff, they're just spouting bullshit. That's. They don't actually believe that. Right. And so his thing that was so good was he explained why. He's like, no, it's because of the gravity's against you. Like, me communicating to the field is really hard. It is extremely difficult to, like, cut through that. So I love that because every other time I've heard people say it's like that, I'm like, they never. It's just them trying to sound good, like they're running for office. His was perfect, you know, like, that was so hard for me at Instacart. When I left instacart, we had 200,000 shoppers. 200,000 shoppers. So, like, how do you communicate something that gets to 200,000 people? Because that's the person at the end who, like, you know, interacts with your customer. By the way, my kids, when I used to tell them I worked for Instacart, they thought I was a shopper because, like, that tells you, like, that's what the experience is for, like, the customer. But anyway, then the other thing on Frank Blake that he said from that episode, Alex, which I'm sure you remember, he said his board member, Ken Langone called him Every day in 2008. Every day. And he's in Shane, the face you just made is the face that he says. He's like, people. People are horrified by the idea of their board member calling them every day. It's like, oh, my God, like, what are you telling me? And he's like, you know what he told me every day? He's like, hey, man, how's it going?

You're our guy.

I'm really glad you're our CEO. I'm here for you. Let me know what you need.

The thing that, like, stuck out with me from this and it. And it's again, from the upside down pyramid. It reminded me so much of a. He reminded me so much of a. Of a old coach, especially a football coach. And I think this is one thing that's a little different from football and basketball is like, footballs are. The team is huge, right? Like, when you think about the 80 to 100 guys on a team, depending if you're talking about, you know, high school, college, pro, like, whatever. But then, like, the equipment guys, the training staff, the giant. Some of these coaching staffs are freaking 40 people, right? Like, the filming crew, like, these are giant. There's a lot of people, right? Like, it's not 200,000, but it's a lot. And so there is, like, this A bit of like the, the. There's like a bureaucracy to it a little bit. And, and I remember Frank, like talking about how you have to prioritize trust and loyalty like with that middle. So like if you again, to visualize the upside down pyramid and the CEO and leadership at the bottom and you're trying to again fight through this, the size of the, the company or the team to get to the, to the important part which is like again this, whatever that may be, the players or the again associates on the floor and how important it was to have loyalty in the middle, right? Because. And trust that those were key components over like talent or skill necessarily. Right. Like so from. And I took this to the football again. It so reminded me of Andy Reed in Kansas City because all his position coaches, these are guys that have been with him forever. Like, forever. These guys are so loyal to Andy, right. And I, and sometimes like to a fault. And, and I always wondered. And he doesn't bring in a lot of outside people ever, right? These are people that he's like kind of hand groomed and he's brought him up, he's taught him the philosophy and they're like indebted to him and again, they're like incredibly loyal. But that reverse, the reverse pyramid only works if you have. And this is what Frank Blake talked about like that trust in the middle because you can go like, you can have a staff meeting with your guys and like, this is this week. We got to do this right. Like, we got to pound this home and you got to have trust that they are on board and they're going to go like relay that because I can't tell you when it's the other way. And I've been on a lot of these situations like that we'll get out of a team meeting and the head coach just said he, you know this, blah, blah, blah, blah. And you go into the position meeting and the position coach is like, that was right. Like, and then he's like, you know, he's totally splintering the group and we're. No, like, don't listen to that. You know, I think that, I think this. Right? And when you have that, like, it's a disaster, obviously. And again, nobody's on the same page, nobody's pulling in the same direction. And I just thought it was so interesting because again, like, that's one of Andy's in Kansas City. He prioritizes that over everything else. And sometimes like, I would wonder, like what like, you know, you'd hear about all these great names this guy's a great exes and those guys, like. But to Andy like that was far less important, right? Like the trust factor, the loyalty factor was kind of number one. And I do think it's one of the ways you get through the tough times as like a. From a bigger team standpoint, right? Because everybody's on board, everybody's pulling in the same direction. You know, the vectors are all pointed in the same. In the same direction, same goal.

It's so interesting because like what you just said is like. It's basically like an imperfectly planned, violently executed well is much better than a perfect plan improperly executed, right? It's like, look, I just need to make sure that we like all go and execute the fucking plan even if it's not perfect, right? Like it's just gotta be there. And I think that this is the whole thing around like disagree and commit too of like, you can fight with me all the way you want in here, but once we leave, you gotta, I gotta know you're gonna do this because like the team is going to look to that person. They're not looking to the head coach, right? They're looking to that person.

One last thing on this is because just in my head and not to again to go back to Urban, when he made the jump to the pros, which I was like fascinated to see how that would work again, this is a guy that like, you know, he and I are really close and seeing what he obviously did, like one of the greatest college coaches of all time and then he decides to make this jump to the NFL and what would that look like? One of the things I think that really was the problem was like forever. From Utah to Florida to Ohio State. Like he had his guys. Like, it was his staff that always kind of went with them and they were again, like, it was like the Andy Reid thing. Like they were his guys. And then when he made to the jump to the NFL, he felt like he had to hire like NFL, an NFL staff. And so he hired a bunch of guys that they weren't his, you know what I'm saying? Like they weren't his guys. They were these career journeymen, you know, a lot of these guys on scholarship. And when, when it starts to. Then again when it starts to fracture and again when there are these, you know, bumps in the road and obviously some of them self inflicted by him. But like then it just, then it then that's what happens. Then it then it completely fractures and sinks, right? And like, and then it's done and And I do think it'd be interesting that I've never asked him this, but if he had to do it again, like, I'm always baffled, like, why didn't you take your guys that were with you?

I'm sure conventional wisdom, I'm sure all these people told him, oh, you know, the NFL is different, you're the college guys. But so Alex, one question for you on the loyalty point. Do you think there's an element. And obviously you can tell by the question. I do. Do you think there's an element of like those people also behind closed doors are like more willing to tell you the truth if they disagree with you, if they whatever. Because it's one thing if they're gonna just like they're gonna go and take what you say and they're gonna go and be loyal. But it also feels like on some of those self inflicted wounds from Urban, if maybe those guys would be more likely to kind of pull them aside for sure.

And I think anytime you have that rel, like if you have a foundation of a relationship that goes years, you're far more likely to be in a place where you can have these kind of conversations and have them constructively. Right. Like again, to your point, like, it's okay to disagree, it's not okay to be disagreeable. Right. Like again. And so I think sometimes when there's new people and you're working through things, confrontation either doesn't happen or, or it's done in a way that's not necessarily constructive. And I think when you do have, you know, when you've been working together with people for a long time and you've established that rapport that you're far more likely absolutely. To maybe have somebody tell you what you need to hear and have it done and have it done in a constructive way.

That's tough though. Ravi, I'm sure you talk to many founders going back to your. What do you, what are you absolutely flexible on? What are you absolutely stubborn about? Right. How much feedback do you really want as a leader and by whom? You know, is it better to sometimes have cold feedback from someone you don't have a connection to because, you know, like a board member that just wants the company to do well, you know, they want the CEO or the founder to do well, but they have a vested interest? I mean, the company needs to do well. Or do you want, you know, the Bill Campbell model where someone you, you feel a little more of a, of a connection that this person really cares about me and my development and vis A vis the company. I'm sure you, you wrestle with that every single day with, with the boards that you sit on and the founders that, that, that you help. So what would you say?

Well, you know, that's a good point. I think the. But what I'll tell you is I actually think that it depends again on is it a repeat game or is an individual game? Because as a board member, you do have this fiduciary obligation to the company, right? But you know, the best board members, to me, they realize that again, it's a repeat game. It's not just one interaction with this person. If you're a one note person as a board member, like, this is what's best for the company. At every moment, the founders or the CEOs is going to tune you out because they don't think you actually care about them. Right? And the only way you earn that is by caring about them over and over and over again and being there for them. And then also in the moment of like that feedback, like you said, Shane, of like, hey, look, I love you, but this is not working. Right? And so there's a board member I admire who's a friend of mine who, he told me one time he was gonna give a really tough piece of feedback to a board, to a guy that, you know, maybe to a CEO, like might lose his job. And he, he went, he went to his house. So he didn't do it over the phone, he didn't do over text, right? You go back to the Instagram generation, he goes to his house and he brings a very expensive bottle of whiskey, okay? And he sits there with him and he's like, look, we have a very hard road ahead of us. We are not doing things the right way right now. And we're going to talk through all of them, but we're going to drink this when we get through it. I do believe we're going to get to the other side. It's not a hundred percent, we're going to get to the other side, but we're going to drink this in a couple of years when we get to the other side and I'll be there with you. But the first step for that is me telling you that it's not working right now. And like, that was pretty fucking great, you know, and I think about that all the time of, like, the kinds of things that, you know, great people do. So my honest answer to you is, I think, Shane, the best leaders, it's like that Nick Saban quote, average players want to be Left alone, good players want to be coached. Great players want to be told the truth. That is exactly the same thing for founders and CEOs. The best ones are just, like, hunting for the truth. And it doesn't mean they're not defensive in the moment or anything, but it does mean that afterwards, they're like, oh, thanks. And, like, you care about me enough to tell me the truth. So that is, like, what I, for sure, aspire to. I aspire to that with people. I work with CEOs, I work with founders and even my friends, you know, like, can I earn the respect and the trust enough to tell them the truth, whatever that is? Alex, can I tell you the story about how I used your line? The. Are you gonna live today? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. That's right.

So I'm in this board meeting, and this founder is great. This dude's great. It's an early stage company. And this guy, he, like, had a business, and then, like, it, like, decided he was gonna change. It pivoted, and now, like, is trying something new. Okay. And he's basically like. He lays out two paths, and it's just him. It's like, him and five people at the company. He lays out two paths. One is sort of like the. We go down the current path that we're on, and we have effectively, like, three years of Runway. And he just kind of keeps beating his head against the wall on this one idea, right? The other path is, like, basically burn the boats, right? Like, he has 16 months of Runway, and kind of if he doesn't figure it out in the next 12 months, like, the company goes kaput, okay? And he's like, what do you guys think? And I was like, oh, man. Like, you. We got to go path two. And he's like. And he kind of looked. You could see, like, you know, kind of one of these. I'm like, oh, man. Like, this is clear. I was like. He's like, why? He said, why is so clear to you? I'm like, dude, why do you not want to do path one? He's like, because it's not going to work, right? Like, I can't explain why, but it's just not going to work, right? And I was like, yeah, man. Like, are you going to fucking live today? Like, let's go. Like, path two. That's what we're going to go do. Like, we only got this one existence. Like, this is the path. Like, you're going to hate yourself. You go down path one, and this dude repeats slowly. Alex, are you going to Live today like that. Okay? Swear to God. And I'm like, yeah, like, let's go. Like, path two. We're in this because of you. We're not in this because of fucking, you know, turn the crank. Like, the only thing that's going to matter is if you build us something. Like, we gave you the money. Like, go ahead. Like, let's go. And dude leaves all pumped up. And I was like, call Alex. Are you going to live today? It, like, it landed. It hit. And, like, he repeated it slowly afterwards. And, like, it was fucking awesome. It was genuinely, like, one of the cooler moments for me because it was like, very authentic to me of, like, the. Are you going to. Like, that was what I wanted to say to him, you know? And, like, that's what he needed to hear. It was really cool. It, like, really worked.

No shit. And it resonated.

It resonated. And then he said it himself afterwards. Like, you could just tell. Like, he just, like, needed somebody to tell him it was okay because he felt embarrassed that he couldn't answer the question of path one, right? And when he just. When I asked him just like, why do you not want to do it? And he's like, I don't have the words for it, but, like, because it's just not going to work. And I was just like, that's enough. I don't care. You don't have to be able to explain it. Like, let's go down the other one.

Oh, that's cool. So he was, like, trying to talk himself that the option one might be the more responsible, responsible thing. Longer Runway. Just bleed this out. It's not as, like, I guess, humiliating if this thing goes under.

And, Well, I think it was even the theory, basically, it's sort of like, am I going to do one thing at a time, or am I going to do it all serious? Am I going to do it all together? And the one thing at a time buys you a lot of optionality at first. I build this, then I build this, then I build this, and it sort of feels responsible. Whereas the other one, he's kind of like, if I build it all at once, I have to hire more people, and I kind of have to bet that it works, right? And when he said it, I was kind of like that. Why do you not want. The obvious path on paper is path one. You get to the same outcome, and you don't risk losing, running out of money. But he just kind of like, that one's not going to work. And I told him there's this quote from Reed Hastings, you know, the founder of Netflix, which Reed Hastings told me this directly, so I didn't like, read this. He told me this directly one time. I've only met him once, but this is what he said the one time he said entrepreneurship, it's like jumping out of a plane without a parachute and believing that a. That you're going to land on a bird on the way down. You know, that's what it requires. Like the belief that you jump out without the parachute, but that a bird's going to catch you on the way down. And I told the same thing, the same thing to this guy. I was like, yo, man, that's what Reed Hastings said. And you could tell he was just kind of like, oh, I don't have to be responsible. I just have to do what I think is right, you know? And I'm like, yeah, man, that's what makes you a fucking founder. Like, we're in this for your intuition, for your judgment. Like, we'll. I'd rather fail with you doing that than have, like a middling success with you turning the crank, you know? But it was like, dude, are you gonna live today? Like, really? It hit.

We're gonna have to see if. We have to check in and shane in like 18 months to see how this went.

Let's see if it works.

You know, Siri, remind me in 18 months to check on.

It was cool. Are you gonna live today?

That's sweet.

That was awesome.

Shout out to Blake Costanzo. Go, Duncan. Duncan and Vinnie, let's go.

Yeah. All right, Dollar Bill, take it easy.

See you guys. All right, later.

Ya.

Thanks for tuning in to Glue, guys. We're on social media at GlueGuyspodcast and we'll be back next week.