David Yeager: Never Waste A Crisis - [Glue Guys, EP.12]

It's super hard when, like, the dinner's like, burning on the stove, your kid's late for soccer practice, and like the pair of man's at the door and your wife's like, why haven't you done everything? And it's like, it's like, this is not the time for 30 questions about why you punched your brother in the face. But like, I get that. But Lorena Seidel, this parenting coach I interviewed, she's like, david, never waste a crisis. Any conflict is a time where what they thought was a good idea is confronted with the reality it was not a good idea. So that is a time for them to learn how to think differently. It's not like later when they remember that, it's like, that's a crisis that could be a chance for them to learn to think differently. And you're never going to get them there, she argues, unless you're genuinely curious about why they thought it made sense to them in that moment.

Welcome to Glue Guys. We're your hosts, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta and Alex Smith.

And we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms, and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work, life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

Two years ago, I read an awesome book called the upside of stress, Dr. Kelly McGonagall and came across a story where she said, there's this really sharp psychologist out of University of Austin who used to be a former middle school English teacher and was fascinated with psychology and became obsessed with mindset and mindset intervention and stress. And he ventured into one of the lowest income high schools in San Francisco at the time. And so this school is riddled with gangs and low board scores, you name it. Everything that befalls low performance schools. And with 1, 1, 130 minute intervention, mindset intervention with a, a test group followed them throughout through the year. That test group compared to the control group had like over, like the GPA was like way higher, a point higher. They missed less day of school, they had less anxiety, less depression, like across the board, the performance and their attitude was like sky high. And I'm like, oh my gosh, this is unbelievable. And like, you know, reading more about this, this is a repeatable thing. And so I'm like, I gotta meet this guy. I have to meet this guy. Because this is like, it's almost like magic. And that's what Dr. Yeager said, he said, yeah, people think it's like hullabaloo magic, but it works. And so I reached out to him, Cold called him and cold emailed him, say, hey, I used to play basketball a long time ago, but I read about you. I just want to meet you. And luckily, David knows basketball, knew who I was, I wasn't some crazy stalker. And we started zooming and becoming friends and I've been a huge, huge proponent of his work. And David's at University of Texas in Austin and he's got a lot of stuff going on. He leads the national study of learning mindset. He collaborates with Angela Duckworth and Carol Dweck, the Grit Mafia. He's just written a book which I highly, highly recommend. Everyone pick up today. Pub. And you, David, Here we go. It's called 10 to 25 the Science of Motivating Young People. It's a groundbreaking approach to leading the next generation and making your own life easier. And so in my corporate speaking world, number one question I get is how do I deal with gen zers and millennials? How do I deal with them? They're aliens. And so today, what I hope our goal is for our group, because, David, we talk about fatherhood a lot and the things that we talk about, what we learned from our parents. And obviously you shaped us so much. We want to hear your secret sauce. So how can we reach our 10 year old hormonal darlings? How can we reach our Gen Z coworkers and colleagues and utilize this amazing magic, the science, the psychology, to become better leaders, fathers, people in the world. And so that's why we're super excited to have you on Glue Guys today.

Yeah, I mean, I normally ignore NBA players when they email me creepy, creepy.

Ex NBA ers that are just like cold calling you, James.

First email was like, I bet NBA players email all the time. Like, no, Shane Battier, like, main person I watched in high school and college basketball. Like, no one emailed what you're talking about, but. And Shane, you gave me one of the best leads in my book, which was Chip England, who I write about and totally inspired me and really changed my thinking and completed the book. I could not have finished it if not for that coaching story.

Can we just jump into the Chip England thing right away since you brought it up? Because I've. The book's awesome. I'm like halfway done. But the Chip England thing is like, fascinating to me. Like, what is it that makes this guy so special? Like, you know, like, what is the Secret sauce.

Let me explain who ship is, first of all. So let's like Chip England. You know, with all respect to Coach K and all the great coaches I play for, I would not be here today. I would not have the career that I had without learning from, I think, the greatest shooting coach in the NBA now and maybe ever, fellow Duke grad Chip England. He was, scored a thousand points at Duke, had a great basketball career in the Philippines in the World Basketball Association. And the story was after my freshman year, I think I was like 4 for 30 from the three point line my, my freshman year, okay, I was a pretty good shooter, but like, I just couldn't make a shot. My freshman year I was like, I was a bad shooter, okay? And most people don't remember that because I was like a power forward. And so that summer Chip is came around in the gym when I was working out and he said, hey, Shane, like, I think I can help you. Your jump shot's good. It's not going to make it in the NBA. You know, you have some technical deficiencies that you have great touch. I think you can be a great shooter, but we need to work on some things. And so I'll be here at the gym tomorrow morning at 8 o' clock and if you want to work, I'll work. And he said this to a teammate of mine, gave him the same speech, like, your jump shot's good, it could be better. I'll be here 8 o'. Clock. I showed up, my teammate did not. And here I am at glue guy. And so the rest is history. So literally like that there was an inflection point in my entire career and, and I worked with Chip for many, many years after that. He changed my shot twice, actually, in the course of my NBA career.

He went on to be like the spurs secret sauce, right?

Like, yeah, yeah, he works for the Oklahoma Thunder, Oklahoma City Thunder now. But he is like the guru. The guru and like just, you know, but more than the shooting coach, he's like my basketball psychologist. And so talking to David for this book, I said, you got to talk to Chip because like he, he is exactly the person that you're trying to define in terms of a mentor mindset. So that's the backstory. David, let's take it from.

Yeah, and this concept of mentor mindset I'll get to is the idea of a leadership style in which you have very high standards but very high support. So you're not on the one hand an authoritarian dictator, which I call the enforcer, where you're just you're not Bobby Knight choking people, throwing chairs at them. And then on the other side, you're not a protector. You're not not just overly nice and fuzzy with no standards, because obviously you can't be an elite performer if that's what's happening. And so the hypothesis, after observing lots of great leaders, is that the great leaders do the combination of both. And that really matters, especially for young people who are in a vulnerable position where they're not quite certain if they belong. In Shane's case, are my skills going to translate to the next level? So there's a bit of status precariousness that a lot of people experience. And a mentor mindset leader is awesome when you're in that circumstance because they're basically saying, you can meet this next level, the thing that you want to achieve, but you're going to need to change a lot. But I'm going to walk the journey with you. I'm not going to just show up, tell you all your flaws and walk away and then let you do it on your own. Because, you know, Chip had to also show up at 8am unpaid to meet with Shane the next morning. And so I spent years following great teachers, mentors, parents, managers at Microsoft, the best grocery store manager that I've ever seen, who I'd love to talk about. And I had all those stories. And then I described this mentor mindset idea to Shane and he was like, you got to talk to Chip. So I'd met Chip, I texted him and I thought, look, the guy's a big deal. He is. He's the spurs one man. Moneyball strategy, right? They could draft players in the late teens or twenties, and they often did because they were often winning. So they didn't have top draft picks. And they would have notable flaws in their shots, but be great defenders and great team players and a bunch of other intangibles. And then Chip would fix their shots and then that's like Tony Parker's now, you know, a Hall of Famer. And this, I love the story Bill Barnwell, I think, wrote about this first that Popovich used to say, that's a turnover every time Tony Parker would shoot. And now, you know, now he's a legend. And Kawhi Leonard used to fling the ball kind of over his shoulder when he shot. And if someone said, oh, who's the best mechanics coach ever? The stereotype would be they would look at all the stuff you're doing and break you down. He'd be like, fundamentally all these things are wrong. We're going to break you down and build you up in my mental image of perfect engulf, perfect swing or perfect throwing mechanics or perfect shot. Right? But that's not Chip's thing. Just like Shane said he didn't start with, your shot is garbage and you need to get rid of it all. And if only you listen to me and then I master architecture shot, then you would be great. Right? But I coach youth baseball. I'm not saying I'm any good, but this is what I see. All the times parents are like your swing's terrible or your throw is terrible. I'm going to build it up from scratch. So that's people's instinct. And I met Chip, I texted him and he's like, you got to come to my favorite restaurant. And I thought, big, intimidating legendary NBA coach is going to take me to the fanciest restaurant lived in San Antonio. And we met at a, a strip mall like on the side of the freeway. Mexican food place. Like not a good Mexican food place. The kind of place that serves tacos in a hard shell, which is like illegal in Austin. Like you better have some gourmet tacos in Austin and you cannot serve these kind of tacos. You'd be kicked out. And Chip's like, you know why I love this place? And it's like. And I just met him like nine seconds earlier and he's like, cause it has the best claw machine in all of San Antonio. And I had brought my daughter and he was going to coach her on how to use the claw machine to get a stuffed animal. He's like, a lot of them are flimsy, they're not good. But this one, it's hard, but there's a skill to it. And so I watched him put like $20 for my 12 year old daughter and my 6 year old son to learn how to use the claw machine. And he was just so much more patient with him than I was with my own children. And like I just tell the story cause it's a very revealing thing. He's not trying to be the like intimidating super expert better than you. I know everything. You're a nobody. And like that was clear throughout the whole interaction. And he later explained to me that he has to spend so much time on trust, which this sound obvious when I say it out loud, but like it's super important. He spends so much time building trust because a 19 year old drafted is, you know, they're a millionaire now and they're. Everyone's saying you're the best. And they've been people talking about you for months on the pre draft and like you think of your shot as what got you drafted and all of a sudden this guy's going to tell you to change it. And if you don't trust that he's got your best interest at heart. If you don't trust certainly that he knows what he's talking about but especially that he's not going to leave you alone in a lurch with a bad shot as an incomplete project. If you don't trust that then you're not willing to revisit the very thing that got you drafted. And so there's a lot more to it. But I think that he's got super high standards. You know he's looking at is the ball releasing off this finger or that finger? It's like are your hands spread widely enough so that way you're controlling the ball all the way through the shot. And like this is my amateur version. Shane, I'm sure you could say it more expert but like he's certainly attention to detail but mainly like the relationship that he has is about you trusting that that critical feedback is there for you. And then the last thing I did that just blew me away is he's like I'm trying to give you a coach in the head a lot of experts and I see this, I take my kids to private hitting coaches cause I'm trying to learn how to be a private hitting coach. I do it for free for kids in my neighborhood and I spend my evenings is giving free lessons anyway so I see a lot of other coaches cause I'm borrowing their ideas and they're very generous but some of them feel like they have to make it seem like the kid can only get better in that one hour. Because that's kind of the business model is like you have to bring your kid to me for me to say the secret sauce to your kid in that hour and then they'll be good. But Chip's like if you work with me one hour you've got 23 hours in the day you need to be getting better. And then six other days in the week so he wants to coach in your head for the whole time. And this is how he runs his youth basketball camps is the first week of his two week camp the coaches are coaching, they're running the drills but the second week the players run the drills and they're coaching each other. And it's because the other 50 weeks of the year he wants the kids to be coaching Themselves in the head. I think that it encapsulates a lot of leadership qualities, and he contradicts a lot of the insecurities that. That I think poor leaders have where they feel like they need to be the dominant expert and the only source of expertise. Chip's all about relationships, challenge, and then transferring responsibility to you so that you can be a coach in your head for the rest of your career.

We always talk about agency on this podcast, Ravi, and he really gave me agency of my game, and I was always in ownership, but I looked at Chip as kind of like my co pilot on this. On this. This. This. This journey, and I hired him. You know, as a. As a rookie in the NBA, you don't get much personal development. You have all these coaches, but, like, there's. There's really no one, like, watching every one of your games, every one of your. Your matchups, and giving you feedback daily. Okay? The coach may pick. Pick out a good play or a bad play on. On film and either cuss you out or. Or praise you, and they. They move on. Right, Alex? But, like, you know. You know, the quarterback's coach might be different. He's. He's obviously watching every one of your. One of your snaps, but, you know, so I hired Chip to watch every single one of my plays. I played for the Memphis Grizzlies, you know, we won 23 games. We were horrible. So I wasn't getting, like, any attention or better from the coaching. And. And he would set, like, these goals for me that I wasn't getting from my own pro team at the time. He's like, look, you should average 16 points a game as a rookie, all right? You're gonna play that. You know, you're gonna play that much. But instead of saying, like, you know, I gotta average 16 points, I want you to break it up by quarters. And your only goal should be get to the foul line twice and make one basket, okay? And you're gonna have the ball in your hand, so, like, if you're struggling, your jump shot, all right, get to the line four times a quarter, okay? And if you can just get to the line and shoot a percentage two times a quarter, and, you know, make one basket a quarter, like you're going to get there. And I'm like, yeah, it's not that hard. I can do that. I can make a basket a quarter. I'm playing 40 minutes a night. And, you know, Chip had the amazing ability to break down, like, really big things here. I'm a rookie in the NBA into Very simple, bite sized things and the confidence I got from that was, was everything. And even though I played for a bad team and I was, you know, and over my head most nights against veterans, just having those simple, simple goals that I felt were like I owned and were attainable were, they were everything for me as a 23 year old rookie.

By the way, Ravi, just to establish all you needed was a Chip England and you could have, you could have been, you could have, you could have been somebody. I'm just saying it could have been somebody.

You know, honestly, I, I, that's the same take. I think the podcast is over. I think we've sort of arrived at the conclusion, you know, which is just had I had Chip, I, I'd have been, you know, the two time player of the year and a two time NBA champion. But that's fine.

The second most, you might have been the second most winning, second most college.

Yeah, I had a little more chain, I probably would have ended up number one. But you know, go ahead. I gotta ask David my question when you're done.

Alex.

No, I was just gonna ask. So does not every team have a shooting coach? Like is this abnormal again to go to like the spurs in Oklahoma City? I guess I was under the assumption.

Like now it's a cottage industry.

They probably do.

Not every player has a shooting coach. All right. Like when I played like, you know, it was rare to have an outside coach. Now everybody's got a guy.

I mean, go, go look player by player on the Thunder the last two years, it is unbelievable. Every, like free throw percentages are up like 15, 20 points. You know, Shy is now superstar. Right. And that's like two or three years under Chip. It's like there are very few treatments that I study in social science where it works like 90% of the time. And you can look at almost any player that he's been coached by. And so there has to be some unique value add that he's doing and it's amazing that he's still able to do that much better than other coaches. In an era where every single shot is tracked. I mean you can like recreate a person's biomechanics in a computer for every play in the game now with the trackers and even with all that potential feedback, there's still something special about the, I don't know, the relationships he does, the way he gets you to own it. Yeah, it's amazing.

Is it different? Cause I feel like I've talked to these guys about the NFL level there, there is no culture. There's not like a growth culture. Like, once you're drafted, you're kind of a little bit of a finished product. Is kind of the mindset for the vast majority of teams.

Is that the approach?

And yeah, I mean, listen, you've been like, no, the idea that you were going to change a quarterback's throwing motion or like change the way a receiver runs or gets in and out of a break or like, don't get me wrong, they want to coach and they're. And it's more of like coaching their system. And I think there's support around a player, like, acclimatizing, if that makes sense. Like, okay, get some reps so that you can get used to the speed. But there is no philosophy around. Like, I'm going to make you a more accurate quarterback. Right. Or help you become, I guess, obviously to. To use more of a, you know, mentorship mindset, you know, word choice. But like, that just doesn't exist in the NFL. It's a little bit like, I've told these guys this, like, you're, you're a finished product, and if you can't do it, we'll get somebody else in here that can. And I think that's kind of the philosophy and I think negatively. Right. Like, I think a lot of. A lot of players don't get developed or their talent or potential never gets seen. So I don't know. Is that rare, though? I mean, in the NBA, you're drafting younger guys. Like, some of These guys are 18, 19 years old. They've only played, you know, pretty fresh out of high school.

Yeah, like, there's a natural growth that's kind of expected. That's why you draft 18 year olds, because, you know, just like, like, naturally, if you give them reps, they're going to get more confident and they're going to get better. You know, Eric Spolster is as good as anybody, you know, developing young players. And people are like, well, what's he do? And I wouldn't say it's like, hey, he walks through guys and their trajectory and, and sets goals for them. He. He plays them right.

He.

He throws them out there. And sometimes it's because of injuries, but a lot of times it's like, all right, like, we need somebody go out there and do it. And it may be, you know, a 6, 5 guy playing power forward. It might be someone who's a wing playing point guard. And Spoelstra has the trust. And when you have coaches that trust you in pressure situations and you know, you're not coming out if you make a mistake, which you're going to make mistakes, it does a lot for you, man, you develop much quicker.

David, what's the accountability metric for people that do it really well? Like, so take the example of you have a. Somebody who's into it, they want to do a great job, they want to be held to the standard.

Great.

What happens in something when the student is not up to this? They're not doing the work necessary to reach the standards that the mentor has. What does a great mentor do in that world?

Yeah, I mean, I think the, like a mentor mindset teacher, for instance, you know, they've got super clear consequences, but if they're not vindictive, it's usually they've, they've set a real standard and the consequences, you just didn't meet that standard. So to give you an example, you know, Uri Treisman is America's greatest freshman calculus professor, and I sat in his class after I got tenure for two years. And it's unbelievable. He does a lot of weird stuff that I write about in the book and a lot of inspiring stuff. But small detail is he gives the same exams as the Harvard freshman calculus class. So if a student at University of Texas at Austin gets a 68, like, oh my God, I'm failing, or why has my teacher giving us something that's impossible, it's too hard for us, then Uriel will be like, yeah, but the Harvard guy's got a 66. And so those are the people you're going to compete for jobs with. And so that's not that bad. And so he, he makes it about preparing you to be a leader in your field. And he says when your leaders in your field, like almost every single class, period. And but the standard is like actual real contribution, like changing the frontiers of science, being a great computer scientist. So it's like students do sometimes fail to meet that standard, but that's because often they're either underprepared or life happened or disability. And there's always a handful of students. But it's not like a punishment. It's more like I set a real standard that would be awesome if you met it and I was trying to support you to do it. And you know, maybe I didn't support you enough, maybe you didn't want it enough. And then those are. It's like the natural consequence of not succeeding.

Yeah, but the one thing that we have to agree on is the standard wasn't met. Right. Because it was so clear yeah, yeah, that's.

And he's totally clear about that. Like, he's not. The protector mindset is. I hide the standard from you because I never want you to feel bad. The mentor mindset's like, no, it's super high, really hard. Not everybody meets it. If you're willing to try for it, here's what I think it's going to take, and here's how I'm going to support you. And then if you don't meet it, then we'll assess. Okay. Where did it go wrong? It's like a troubleshoot. Start of troubleshooting. Yeah.

It's so good to go back to the stress. You know, when we first started the stress conversation, I. It hit so home from me, you know, like, taking the field as a football player. Like, the stress is very real, right? Like, these big human beings are coming to get you. So it's a little bit, like. It's a little instinctual, right? Like, the fight or flight. Like, I got the ball, especially as a quarterback, and they are coming to get you. And it's so funny when you talk about, like, your approach or. I loved how you even talked about, like, the harnessing your stress, because, like, for me, there is no really gray. Like, when I'm in that situation. And I've told these guys, like, the best of times, when I have harnessed it, it's really taken me to, like, a flow state, right? Like, time slows down. I see the tiniest of little things so vivid in my mind, right? Like, oh, the safety took this step here. I saw the cornerback turn his hips. And, like, it is just such a. It's a. It's a surreal feeling to be in that, right? Like, I feel like a superpower. And at the same time, like, I've been. When I felt like it was too much for me, right? And I was. And I felt unprepared, and the stress, like, over, like, overtook me. It was too much. Like, then it. I became a frenzy, and I would get out there, and it's like I couldn't see anything. And if things were moving a thousand miles an hour, and I was, like, distracted, and, like, it was a mess and a little bit of it. I, again, had this negative approach to the stressor, right? Like, oh, my God, I'm not prepared. This is gonna be too much, like, my worry, too, then just, like, magnified it, and it was chaos and it. And it was like, it's like one or the other. There was no in between for me. And I, like, fascinating. I'VE never heard anybody talk about, like, well, it's just your approach to the stress, right. That may have the biggest, the biggest output on which direction you go.

Yeah. And I'm curious, there's a, there's a follow on which is. If you watch any major sports game, the announcers often talk about the quarterback who steps on the field with like, ice, you know, water in his veins. Like, and that's the ideal is the person who, you know, hits the free throw with, you know, like, they don't care. And so if internally you are in the latter threat type state where you see threats everywhere and you feel unprepared for them and you don't know which one to pay attention to, cause they're all threatening, then. Then you're also aware that you're the kind of person who's not ice water in the veins. And does this mean I don't have it? And in a league where you're gone like that, I mean, I can't believe how quickly they give up on quarterbacks these days. It's unbelievable. Or any player, it's just like, you're cut, you're gone. You were the best in the world for four years in college, and all of a sudden you're a nobody like after Game 4 in the NFL. But that's every year it's like that. And it's gotta be going through people's minds. If I was Joe Montana or Steve Young or whatever, then I wouldn't be feeling this way. So the fact that I'd feeling this way means I'm even more stressed.

But what comes first, I guess, right? Like, it's easy to say, like, once you've had success, then you feel confident, right? Like, or, but like you're saying, you're almost saying it's different, right? Like, your approach, coming in to the stress and getting in this whole, like, attitude change of getting to the point where, like, you're embracing it, right? Can get you to the point where then you, you, you are dialed in. And then you have your best chance of having success. And therefore it becomes this like, cyclical thing.

Our big innovation in our, in our nature paper from 2022 reported on this stuff, is that there are two different kinds of thoughts that happen in sequence. One is the stressful experience or event, like the demand I'm facing. How, how do I think about that? Do I have the resources to do it? Am I prepared? Is it too. Is it more than I can do? And the best thing to think there is that a challenge is an exciting opportunity to show what I've done. It might be an opportunity to learn where else I need to grow and what I need to fix. But it, but it's like this is a chance for me to perform at the level of my preparation. So I'm approaching this difficult challenge and I'd be bored if it wasn't hard. I want a hard talent. But. But then your heart starts racing and you might want to puke and your palms are sweaty and all those other things. And you might say, yeah, yeah, this is a good challenge, but if I was really prepared, my body wouldn't be doing this stuff. So the second thing you have to do is to name the bodily response as a resource that will actually help you to meet the demand. So if you think of the demand is here and resources here, resources could be like your prior skill, your coaching or whatever, but it's also your in the moment bodily responses. So you want to think of those as resources to. To help you have as much resource as demand. And I'll just tell an anecdote I tell in the book. But it's a time when my daughter had cello recitals for first chair. And don't ask me what that means. I don't know what it means, but it was important to her when she got in the car in seventh grade. Like, daddy, I have butterflies on my stomach. I have this tryout and I'm so nervous, I don't want to do it. And if I was a protector parent, then I'd be like, I'm calling the school and telling them you're sick and you're not going. And the enforcer parent is, suck it up, stop being a wimp. Right? And I'm tempted to do both of those things. So enforcer and protector parents out there, I get it, I'm with you. But the mentor is like, I'm going to make you do this hard thing, but I'm going to help you have the resources to meet it. And I knew that I could get her to rethink that stress physiology as a resource. So. And I was also writing this book and for her, as a seventh grade girl, she would love nothing more to point out that I was a hypocrite. So I also had to like do.

Mental mindset to her.

And, and so I was like, well, Scarlett, do you know what I'm going to say to you? And she's like, yeah, you're going to say that butterflies on my stomach mean I'm doing something important that matters to me, something that's hard might be impressive. And. And that my heart racing, is getting blood to my brain and my muscles, and I'm gonna perform to the level of my muscle memory because of that. And I was like, scarlett, that's the best answer I've ever heard in my life. And how did you know I was gonna say that? And two years earlier, we were in Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. It's like, north of Chicago in a lake. And I was holding her skis.

I'm from the Midwest. Shane's from Miami. He doesn't know about that. But I know exactly where Lake Geneva is. Yeah.

Yeah. It's the home of spotted cow, which is the Wisconsin beer you can't get anywhere. And she was about to. Like Uncle Luke had the boat is about to rev it and pull her out. And she's fifth grade at the time, weighs 60 pounds. And I was like. She's like, said the same thing. I have butterflies on my stomach. I'm so nervous. I can't do this. And I was like, scarlett, that is your. You're excited about something fun. Like, not everyone can ski. And it's a little dangerous, a little scary. But the fact that it's scary is going to mean it's going to be even more fun when it goes well and your heart is getting oxygenated blood to your muscles so you can hold onto the rope, and that's going to make you strong enough to pop up. And because you don't weigh very much, all you have to do is hold on and you're going to ski another time of your life. And she immediately popped up. Uncle Luke hit it, and she skied for, like, 30 minutes, didn't fall. And I just waited there, bobbing in the water, kind of bored, but, like, proud that, like, I'd finally said something to my kids that worked. And she remembered that two years later. And I. I say that because there was a moment where she had the stress physiology but didn't know what to name it. And that's the big point here, is it could have gone either way, like up or down, threat or challenge. And I needed her to know in the moment this stress physiology is a resource. And furthermore, once she was able to use it and it helped her meet her goals, then it's unforgettable. And so I think that's the chicken and egg answer. Alex is like, they. They need to be about. On the precipice of doing something that's really terrifying, could go either way, know that they can harness that resource and do well. And then that experience becomes like a metaphor for them, for future experiences in life.

I love that for you guys. I haven't told you guys this story. So when I first got into the NFL, David, the rule for footballs. And as a quarterback, like, your entire life, like in high school, I had one football, like every year, and it was my football, right? So, like, during a game we played with my football, right? And it. It was like, very broken in. It was like a great old gym ball. It was like so, like, squishy and tacky and it was, like, beautiful. And I'd have a different one every year. And like, even in college, you only played with a few. And I was, like, very particular about the balls that we had. And then fast forward, I get to the NFL and my rookie year. The rule my rookie year was the home team provides the balls, okay? And so for both teams, and the balls stay on your given sideline. So the ball bag for the home team, you would just see they were like these really well broken in balls they'd been practiced with. And then the opponent ones were, like, fresh out of the box and, like, inflated to the max. And they were. They're horrible, right? Like, the brand new Wilson football was. It's terrible. And then I would play these cold weather games late in the year. So, like, I went up to Seattle, vividly, had this where, like, you go to throw and. And the ball would just slip out of my hand.

Oh, my God.

This happened like, six times my rookie year. Okay. And it became a question about my hand size, right? Like, I began to have to answer questions. And it, like, I became this, like, small hands guy. Like, it's still. Dude, my family still makes this joke. They still make fun of me. This was like the meme on our group family text. Like, you know, the guy with the mini hands and the giant burger. And then they stuck my face on it. And like, this was the joke that I'm like, small hands, guys. And it became this, like, huge. David. It became this huge stressor for me because it, like, was an issue. Like, nothing worse than going back to throw a football. And whoa, it slips out. Like, it is such an uncomfortable feeling. It's a fumble, like. And so for the rest of my career, I had never dealt with this. My palms would start sweating. Like, you literally said it. And my palms would sweat before the game. And so for them, they're on out. And luckily they changed the rule. So thank you, Tom Brady and Peyton Manning that got this done. They changed the rules. So you got to take your own footballs from there on out. But like, I always had to have a football because I was like, I was worried about the feel and like, I, like, my last thing I would do before I would run out on the field is like, I made sure I like felt the football always had a ball in my hands and like, I would play catch because I wanted that reassurance. But like, I never flipped it as a strength. It was always like, oh fuck, my palms are sweating. You know, like, and I got to handle the football and it became this. Like it was important.

It was important to you, it was important.

But I never like flipped it to that place. And I clearly needed to like your daughter, like, take it to that place. But it just struck with me right there. You mentioned it and it was like this physiological reaction to me and it just like made it worse. And, and it's like I dealt with it the rest of my career. 16 years. My last year, I still dealt with it from like being scarred as a, as a rookie. So anyway, I wish I would have met you a long time ago.

This is amazing because it happens all the time, right? It happens with everyone. And so getting these tools is actually crazy helpful. I wrote down earlier you said this thing status, precariousness, right? You know, as like a, like a term. Can you just define that? What is it and why is it so important? Because one of the things when Shane has talked to us about you before we started reading your stuff was so much of it is like the importance of status, particularly for this age group. And obviously we talk about how that, that it's a real thing you have to overcome even later. But can you just like describe what that is and why it's so important?

So just to provide kind of the root idea, it goes back to how evolutionary anthropologists think about the origins of the human species. So we're as a roving band, band of people on the savannah in Africa. You've got threats all around. You've got other groups that want to kill you and you've got animals who want to kill you. There's a lot of stuff you got to deal with. And when you're a baby or a four year old, they keep you around because the parents love you and you're the future of the tribe. And you don't have to do anything to keep the tribe alive when you're four or a baby. But at some point you can't just sit there like a lump on a log expecting people to bring you like, you know, a leg of a lion and feed you and protect you. It's like you got to show that you can do something. You have to bring something to the table. And adolescence is kind of like the biological alarm clock to start showing that you matter socially and you can. You can bring value, whatever the criteria for status is in that group. And of course, in our evolutionary history, it's like this basic survival stuff. Now, figuring out the criteria for status is super hard because there are a lot of different routes to being viewed as a valuable contributor. And there's a million different subcultures we could belong to. But we tend to think of the onset of puberty as the driver to start learning what makes you socially successful due to another evolutionary example is my colleague Ron Dahl likes to talk about songbirds, like, you know, like a robin, and they. They mate by singing a particular song. And you gotta, like, really kick ass at the song, or else every, like, female bird ignores you. And so young birds, like, kind of tweet a little bit, but they don't, like, obsessively practice the right way to have the mating song. But once, once puberty starts, they are going nuts. They're just practicing all the time, and. And then they perfect it, and then they get to mate. And if you just, if, if scientists, well, they cauterize the testes of birds, and they do that before the timing of puberty starts. They kind of practice a song, but they never really get dedicated to it, and then they die alone. And so it's a way of saying that a lot of the social learning, the kind of obsessiveness, the intense focus, the desire to have an identity, that stuff is really fundamentally about earning a reputation as someone who has value to something that's important in the group. And I say earning because status isn't really just given necessarily. It's something you have to do, something to show that you have value, power you can get, you can just have with money. But prestige is only earned, and prestige is really influential. So it's a long way of saying that given that from age 10 on, your status and respect is a life and death situation. And again, in our evolutionary history, if you have no value, they just leave you there, right? Or they get rid of you or whatever. So it is life or death in a lot of ways. Then it really comes to the forefront of your mind when you don't have any reason to have prestige or you haven't earned any status, and people are questioning whether you deserve respect, whether you should be taken seriously. And so that's the circumstance of status, precariousness. And I call that sometimes the adolescent predicament. That you want to be someone that's viewed as socially valuable and important, but you're not treated that way and you haven't yet earned a good reputation. Now that's fundamentally the adolescent story. How about in your 30s, 40s and 50s? Well, what I think is that anytime you switch to a new role or a new setting where there's new rules for what counts as excellence, then you can be thrown back into that adolescent predicament. And what that can do is it makes you be hyper attentive to subtle signs that you're not doing well or that people are judging you or looking down on you. And I bet, Shane, you know, you went from NBA champ to now data scientists, front office at, you know, and this. People who spent their whole lives at MIT doing these things.

Cold call creeper. Don't leave the cold calling creeping out of this.

We talked about last episode, last podcast, we talked about transition. And that's a huge part of transition and grieving. You know, we've all been very successful in our, a former life that we've all had now, now we're all just podcasters trying to get some, some likes and some, some, some, some subscriptions, right? Follow and like blue guys, please. And very, very different metrics and very different sources of fulfillment than we've, we've all had sort of in a former life. And it's real. It's real. But we are all, you know, we, we are all very successful, you know, men, fathers and you know, there are times now we've all talked about it, we all say, well, what the hell are we doing here?

I'm just even thinking about my own 13 year old. And there is this philosophy even as I was like, you know, in your book you talk about like my first instinct when my son does something stupid is exactly that. That like, what the. Why aren't you using your brain, right? Like, you know, like, what do you. What's going on here, right? And I like immediately jumped to this kind of conclusion and I was like so fascinated by your book and the whole like, say no to drugs thing. And I'm not. But like, as an institute, right when that policy was created back in the 80s, that actually had like the inverse effect, like drug use actually like, I think increased. And it's this in, buried in it is this like inherently, like, it's so obvious, right? Like, what are you guys doing? And you're really missing this like, key component of like they're just motivated by different things and we're not, you're not identifying with their motivations and, or this key component of respect. Right, like giving them the respect to make their own decisions to be right. Like obviously in their quest for status, like is that, am I off base in that thinking? Like, you know, like it's really made me even, I guess think about obviously my role as a father.

And look, I didn't write the book because I'm the perfect parent. I wrote the book that I needed to read because I have four kids and you know, I do mediocre stuff as a teacher and as a manager. And so it's all the idea is that we all fall into enforcer and protector at different times for reasons that feel legitimate to us given our perspective on the situation. And, and the challenge is to get back into mentor. And one of the hardest things to do, what often prevents us from getting back into mentor is this cultural belief that I call the neurobiological incompetence model, which is a long way of saying we just think young people are idiots. And if that's your starting point, then you're not curious why your 13 year old is doing something dumb. It's like they shouldn't have done it and it's obvious I shouldn't have done it. And so we might say what were you thinking? But we don't. That's not an authentic question. You don't mean you're not like, oh, explain to me your logic and why it made sense to you to do this. It's like I'm telling you you're an idiot.

No, it's insulting.

Yeah. And so that plays into the status and respect thing because the presumption that they had no thought at all and that they're fully, just totally wrong and illogical and they see the entire world wrong and that you, the adult, are the only person who sees the world correctly and that the only way they can be smart is if they immediately comply with our worldview and beliefs. Like that comes across as disrespectful for kids. And I kind of get it. Even though a lot of times kids are doing dumb stuff. And what I found is that the best parents, managers, mentors, they're legitimately curious why a young person has made a mistake, whether it's a moral mistake or just like a carelessness or in their schoolwork and they ask open ended questions and wait for an answer and then they ask a follow up that actually builds on what the young person said and that sounds Easy. It's super hard when like, the dinner's burning on the stove, your kid's late for soccer practice, and like the pair of man's at the door and your wife's like, why haven't you done everything? And it's like, it's like, this is not the time for 30 questions about why you punched your brother in the face. But like, I get, I get that. But Lorena Seidel, this parenting coach I interviewed, she's like, david, never waste a crisis. Any conflict is a time where what they thought was a good idea is confronted with the reality it was not a good idea. So that is a time for them to learn how to think differently. It's not like later when they remember that, it's like, that's a crisis. That could be a chance for them to learn to think differently. And you're never going to get them there, she argues, unless you're genuinely curious about why they thought it made sense to them in that moment.

I was going to ask you, like, let's say you have religion on this mindset, right? And I think I love the language. I really appreciate it. One of the things that's hardest, I think, is the patience is just sort of like actually being patient enough in there. Because like, we care so much about our kids that when they do something dumb, of course there's like the neurobiological incompetence theory, but there's also just like, you really care and you just like want it to be fixed, right? And you, and you care so much about it, but there's so much patience in what you're describing. How do you teach yourself if you aspire to have the mentor mindset, to have the patience required to actually execute on it?

I think, first of all, I think that's a profound question and I think about that a lot. And did when I was writing the book, because I was like, who's the busy guy who's going to read this and say, yes, I can do this? That was the reader I was worried about as I was writing it. I guess I would say there's two reasons why we're in a hurry. One is we're over scheduled. I'm over scheduled and I'm running. Like I said, the minute I finish work, I'm often coaching baseball. I'm out in the talking to kids, I'm in the community. And it's like, my 4 year old just needs pants on. Like, I don't want to have an argument about it. You have to wear pants and so that's aversion. But. And that, that's. It's very hard to do mentor mindset stuff when you are racing to something. And so you have to. I think the answer is plan out when you're going to do some of these conversations and be proactive and do them in advance of a crisis is the answer for the over scheduled part. And that's what I've had to do. The other reason why we're in a hurry though is because we're embarrassed that we look like bad parents, bad managers, or bad teachers in front of other people whose opinions we care about. And I just take the parenting example. Anytime our kid does something embarrassing to us in public, it makes us look like the kind of person who doesn't have control over our own home, but can't command respect from our own children. And, and like, what kind of person is that? And I mean, like, I mean, no one cares about me. But for the professional athletes, like, sure, I can imagine you wearing like, you know, former athlete is the world's worst dad. You know, like that could happen like if you yelled at your kid in public or whatever. But I think normal people experience that also. Like my son Jack. Jack is like the loudest person on the planet and he will scream so loud. And, and like his teacher asked if he was deaf and we had to get his hearing tested. And the doctor was like, oh, no, no, no, he's biologically fine. It's just like a character flaw. And so when he asks for a toy in public and yells no. It's like the invisible audience of parents are like, this is the worst parent of all time. And I have been in that situation. And normally what I do is I'm in a hurry to rush him to like the bathroom and let him cry it out. And then we go. But I don't want anyone to witness like that whatever's happening. And the day after I interviewed the parenting coach, I was like, you know what? Screw it. I'm going to try out this questioning stuff. And so Jack asked for a toy in the middle of a park in like downtown, like a resort area. This is a million people out. And I'm like, no, you can't have it. Screams. I'm like, all right, Jack. Well, I noticed, you know, you're not getting the toy. Like, how does it making you feel? And then he yells as loud as he can. You're hurting me. And I'm like, well, that's not what I wanted strangers to hear. And then I'm like, all Right, well, you know, like, what else could it be? And he's like, you're the worst father. Like, also not what I want them to hear. And it's so bad. And then I asked the second question that Lorena gave me, which was, is that serving your purposes? Like, is thinking that helping your goals? And he was not ready for that question. And he was like, no, it makes me feel bad. And I was like, all right, well, then what's. What else could it be? The other reason why I'm saying no to the toy? And he's like. And now he's, like, in creative thinking mode. Because that question surprised him. He's like, oh, well, maybe it's because you. You don't want me to buy a toy that I'm going to throw away because it's a waste of money. And that's because you care about the family, and also, you don't want there to be plastic in the landfill, so you care about the earth. And I was like, well, how would that make you feel? He's like, well, I'd feel like I had a great dad who cared about me and also cared about my future and cared about the Earth and was a really good person. I was like, can we just go with that? And he was like, yeah, let's do that. And then I bought him ice cream anyway because I felt like he deserved something. But, like, I've. I. I wrote that in the book hoping people would try it. And, like, dozens of people were like, I tried that, and it worked, and I couldn't believe it. And so that's a moment where I could have been in a rush to get him to the bathroom so I don't look like a bad parent. But I was like, let's just not waste this crisis. And that has helped me in a professional setting.

All right? We're dealing with metaphorical adolescents at work. That's, like, the number one thing, you know, I always get it. Q and A session. How do I deal with gen zers? Millennials? They don'. They just want the corner office, yada, yada, yada. It's the same dynamic, right? And so as managers and leaders, you know, how do we approach those conversations any different?

So the details are different, but the philosophy is not. But the details matter, so I'll just explain some of them. At some point, I pulled a Battier and I cold emailed Satya Nadella, the CEO of Microsoft, and guessed his email. Then he replied. And anyway, I was talking to him about how we wanted to create large language Models that were fine tuned and trained on expert mentor mindset leaders. So like, imagine that. So Microsoft has like 30,000 managers. Imagine that you could find the 5 to 10% who routinely keep talent in the pipeline where if you go off and you recruit the best engineers from Stanford and mit, you don't lose them to Facebook or Amazon or whatever, they stay in the ranks. And like a broad representative group, like a diverse group, you're not just filtering out some people and keeping others, you're keeping all your talent. And if you had the transcripts of their performance evaluations, which are usually hard because you're giving tough critical feedback and that's a huge time when Gen Z young people are like, you know what? Do you hate me? Why are you criticizing me? Do you think I'm no good? It's a huge pain. Point is that managers think I'm helping you get better and employees think you're trashing me and you're trying to fire me. So if you could find the good transcripts from the best performance evaluation conversations from managers who retain Gen Z employees, wouldn't it be awesome if we could fine tune large language models and then coach new managers on the right stuff to say? Because maybe managers don't really know how to do this mentor mindset stuff or they're busy and they would really benefit from having hints or practice. So that was the idea. And we went through the HR and we found someone who's generally considered one of Microsoft's best managers. Her name is Steph Okamoto. She'd been there 17 years and I just had her walk me through the way she did her performance evaluations and how she had these tough conversations with 22 to 24 year olds about the quality of their work. And it was never enforcer stuff. It wasn't yelling, telling, blaming and shaming, but it was also never protector stuff. She was totally honest. And the reason why she got away with it is kind of like the Chip England stuff. She would have them set super high standards for themselves. So for instance, you're hired for some job responsibilities such as running, onboarding for all new managers or employees. At Microsoft, she had a 25 year old doing that. And Steph was like, that's going to be too easy for you. So what's a stretch task you want to add to that responsibility? And then the 25 year old said, well, I want to create a data dashboard so I actually could track all the progress, but I don't know how to manage programmers. And so Steph was like, all Right, let's set that goal so that way when you get to your performance evaluation, you will have gone above and beyond six months from now and it'll be super impressive. But Steph didn't like tell her how to manage a team of programmers. Mostly what she did was run it was blocking and tackling stuff. So if you're going to borrow engineer time, if you're in hr, you're trying to borrow engineering time, those engineers are going to be like, who are you? Get out of here. We're the high status people here and your project's lame and our engineers are too important. And so Steph would talk to the other manager and be like, can you just not harass her and let her get some engineering time? I'm summarizing it. She did it better than that. And so she's mostly protecting the employee's right to do something ambitious and hard. And then she did that. It went above and beyond her name. Saloni Shaw. She's now the chief of staff for HR at Microsoft in her late 20s. So huge promotional velocity, very great success story. But the key thing is when they met to talk about performance, it was like, they're troubleshooting this awesome and ambitious project. It's not like you're not living up to what you're doing. And so when the employee comes in, and this is hard for me, they're not admitting that they can't do their regular job. It's like it's hard to be an over performer. And in that context, I need your support and help and I don't want you to do it for me. I want you to basically allow me to earn the prestige of, of an over performer. And I don't think that people complain they want the corner office, but like, don't you want someone super ambitious that's going to like do 150% of their job like ahead of schedule? And like that's, that is the employee that I want. So it's like channeling that ambition into a way to earn a great reputation ahead of schedule. And then you are their supporter. And so that's what Steph does. And that's what even the great grocery store manager that I followed for non College educated 18 year olds.

What store were they at?

For some reason I was appointed partially at the business school, the University of Stavanger in Norway. And so I went to go teach a class, a graduate class. And while there I got involved in a project of the greatest grocery store managers for this network of grocery stores called obs. And we found this guy Ulay who over performs. So in a small regional grocery store they have some of the best profits, far better than you'd expect based on demand. And so I interviewed all of his assistant managers, his employees and all that kind of stuff and they love the guy. It's universally they want to work so hard for him. And in the US if you talk to grocery store owners and I have interviewed a lot of or managers, all they complain about is the teenagers who want to get high and like take naps in the back and goof off and they get really good at pretending not to work and like looking busy but no one actually asked them to do anything. And that's the complaints. And I'm not saying they're wrong, but Ulay doesn't have that problem. And when he does, he had this one 18 year old who learned from an older employee who later left how to not work and he called her in and like chewed her out. And I interviewed her pretty soon after that and I was like, were you mad? Were you offended? That's the stereotype of Gen Z is that you give them honest feedback and then they complain about it, you know. And I was like did you want to quit? And she's like no, he cares about me too much to let me be an underperformer. And then he sent her to leadership training to like in two years be the shadow of the assistant manager. So she's not even the shadow of the assistant manager yet but, but she saw a path and saw as an investment in her. So the chewing out wasn't like you're not good. It's like this is my way of helping you to become great. And I'm going to back that up with how I support you. And I'll say Wegmans is a grocery store in the east coast is very similar and they were the number one employer in the country for a long time for a good reason. They're recently overtaken by Google, now Microsoft. But they invest in their non college educated employees at a very early stage. I think that's really important.

I mean you guys have football and basketball and I have grocery. I feel like it's pretty similar. You guys remember when we had Brian Halligan who's the executive chairman and the co founder of HubSpot on and he's an amazing guy but he was talking about how he would invite all these people who were high performers to the board meeting, right so that they could come and just meet the board and also present things. And I think that just like you said, that currency of. No, not your manager, not the person that's three levels above you. You, you know that door is open and we're going to have you come do that. And just like what they would get as a result of that practice. Super unique. But one thing I wrote down from what David said that I love. I've always, we've talked about believing in people more than they believe in themselves. When you have high expectations, right? Like no, you talk about this, Shane. Like I only am tough on you because I believe in you. You can do better. That I care about you too much to be, for you to be an underperformer is. That's fucking gold. That's so good, right? Because you can even flip it.

I said it's a jack. Now when he wants to quit baseball practice. But Sergio Estrada, who's the Ulay of El Paso, Texas, is this awesome teacher. He's got this story about a student who asked a hard physics question through this app called Remind. It's like their protected text messaging app. And it's like, I don't get it. I'm crying. I can't do it. I'm, I'm not going anywhere. Like it's just full on psychological catastrophe. At nine o' clock, it is a very low income school. You can see Mexico, you know, at the window. It's on, on the river border of Mexico. And he's there for like a social purpose. He wants to like inspire and change the lives of these kids. And so the temptation is to say, just don't worry about it. Right? Don't do it. Come tomorrow, you'll be fine. Right? Or it's nine o', clock, I'm trying to watch Netflix. Like give it a rest. But he didn't do that. He just goes, show me what you have so far and we'll take a look. And then she takes a picture of the problem. He's like, oh, I see that you have this and this. What would happen if you did that? And then he puts the phone down and like starts Bridgerton or whatever he was doing. And then 30 minutes later the girl comes back and says, oh, I see it now. I can get it. I'm not crying. I'm confident. I'll see you tomorrow. And so like he didn't explain physics to her in the moment, but he was there and she knew that he was there and it got her unstuck. But she's the one who did the thinking. And I was like, Sergio, how did you resist the urge to help first generation students. She could have crumbled. Anxiety, stress, depression. He was like, he thought it was so weird that I asked him that. And he was like, I would never deprive them of a chance to know that they can understand physics. And that's the version of the ULI thing because the students know that by the end of the semester that he cares about them too much to not have them carry physics knowledge with them as they leave. And they and his students do internships at NASA. They like go on scholarship, they physics majors. They know eventually that he's forcing them to do the thinking because he wants them to own it going forward because he cares about their high performance.

We had Urban Meyer on a few weeks back and you know how he talked about how he was tough on Alex. He remembered Alex's exact weight, you know, from freshman year, all this. But he had this thing he's like, love is not soft, love is hard. Like that is what if you actually care? He's like, that doesn't you have to do that. It is part of the job. And same thing that this teacher said, right of just like I would never deprive them of the joy that they get or the knowledge they have of learning physics. But that's like actually caring rather than like getting out of the situation, you know.

Yeah, there's a lot of parenting research from like the 80s and 90s that were trying to argue that kids will have insecure attachment so they won't have an attachment figure if parents are authoritarian dictators. So it was very like anti kind of authoritarian mean parenting. And that gave rise to a lot of the self esteem movement that I think swung the pendulum in the opposite way where everyone has kid gloves at all times. And. But there was this one interesting finding that researchers kept trying to show that the more distress kids had, like they're crying, they're, you know, they're unhappy that the worse their lives would be. But it turns out that in a lot of the best homes, kids are crying all the time. And that's because kids don't want to do the right stuff. Like it's way easier to keep playing with Legos or knock it out of the pool or steal 19 yogurts from the fridge like my 4 year old did yesterday. But kids cry all the time in good houses because there's firm boundaries and someone's in charge. But they're not crying cause the parents humiliating them or shaming them or saying you're no good, it's just because it's legitimately. Hard to figure out how to be successful in our society. And the same is true in Sergio's class. Students are crying all the time. I interviewed his wife, his best friend, his former students, and the students were always like, oh yeah, I cried all of September and October and. But it's not because he's yelling at them like Jaime Escalante, you know, telling them they're going to be barefooted and pregnant if you don't pass calculus. It's like physics is legitimately hard. It's like the secrets of the physical universe were hidden from all of humanity for thousands of years. And now we ask every 17 year old to learn it in like six months. Like it's unbelievable. And he, and he gets them to do that. So I think that this idea of your job is to protect everyone from sadness is like not right. And that's the wrong way. But it's also not your job to crush people and make them feel like shit all the time. It's to let them do legitimately hard things, experience those emotions and help them get out on the other side. Super proud that they did something amazing.

To go back to the over scheduled thing because I think every person deals with this, right? The stress. And isn't that in itself just a stress, right? Like to go back to our reaction to the stress, right? Like in the parenting moment, I'm super self conscious because I think people are watching and I'm so busy, right? Like what you were talking about, like I don't have time to have this appropriate conversation with my kid, right? But it's like this exact thing and my wife's going to hate that. I'm saying she has this reaction sometimes when we get. You get stretched too thin, but everybody does. But her reaction is like, oh my God, I'm stressed. Like, you know, like instead of like taking the appropriate approach to it, like even that mindset change, which I guess that's just as I'm like thinking out loud here, like would let you deal with that better, right? Because everybody, we're all overbooked. Like you said, like this is, it's like universal. We all have our stuff and in that moment to be able to handle that appropriately and view it as the stressor that it is.

I think part of the challenges of modern life involve the fact that things change so fast. Both the labor market, technology, even our daily routines. Like I just had to, you know, switch from Google Play to Apple tv and that took me three hours to do all the logins. You know, it's like it's just there's always something that takes so much time and it's so complex. And then also there feels like there's a race of, like, what are you doing for your kids and how are they measuring up? And are you doing enough? And if you're not, then are you blamed for that? And so I get that. I mean, and I get the temptation of being thorough and Walden and just getting rid of everything. But, you know, at the same time, all of us have the chance to make a contribution to improving our society. And that means we gotta be a part of society at some level, and you can't say goodbye to it. So this is a problem that's not really going away. And so given that, how in the world are you supposed to do mentor mindset stuff? And what I found very comforting from Lorena Seidel is the very simple idea of the do over. And it's like in a parenting case, you lose your mind and you are not the parent you want to be. And then you start worrying that now your kid's going to remember that forever. And now you've created toxic stress and a traumatic experience, and you just cost yourself tens of thousands of dollars in therapy because of your momentary lapse in judgment.

Right?

Yeah.

And. But you actually get a do over. You can be like, Hey, 10 minutes later, five minutes later. I did not live up to the values of this family. I still need you to do that thing I need you to do. But I should have been more curious about why it was hard for you, and I should have had this. I should have had a conversation about, you know, what's going. What's. What's getting in the way. And I would just like to listen now and, and have a do over. And I've started doing that. And your kids remember the do over more than the first thing. In fact, sometimes they laugh about the first thing.

What you just said is so. But it's so 1000% right? Like, I feel terrible when I, like, do the bad stuff with my kids, when I yell and scream or shout when I do something not on purpose, and I'm, like, not in control. You know what I'm saying? Like, when I'm doing something that's not, you know, with. With a purpose in mind and more just, like, emotionally driven. But what you just said is the best part about parenting is this realization of, like, you still get them tomorrow, right? And you, if you go to them, then they actually get to see how you react to a mistake too. Right? And they get to see that, like, and I tell them all the time, like, this is my first time being a dad, you know, like, I'm, I'm trying and, but I, I made a mistake. And I hope that, like, what you see is like, it's not that I don't make them, it's that I, like, apologize and that, you know, we're going to get through it together. And it's same thing. It's not that I don't need you to do the thing. It's just that, like, the style I took was so wrong. And so I love your point on the do overs and I find that, like, if you have the mindset that I think you encourage us to have, it's almost better for them to see you make the mistake and then come back from it, because they're going to make mistake, they're going to do stuff that they shouldn't do, and they're going to realize that Even when you're 100 years old, like, like I am, you know, that they, you still do it and you still got to react. David, this was amazing. Amazing. So, so helpful, so impactful. And you've done this incredible service by writing these books or writing this book and then also just talking about it and being as open as you are on, you know, the book you needed rather than like the book that you are perfectly embodying. And it was very impacting to me, man. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Yeah, thanks for having me. Guys.

Go get 1020-25. 10 to 25. Support your local bookstore. David, you're a superstar. I'm glad you answered that cold email that, that long, that cold December day many, many years ago. And we, we applaud all your, your work and your passion for, for helping not only young people, but old people like us too. And thank you for, for being the Glue Guy today.

Thanks for tuning in to GL Blue, guys. We're on social media at Glue Guys Underscore podcast and we'll be back next week.