Dawn Staley - The Championship Mindset - [Glue Guys, EP.46]

I just interviewed for the Knicks. I took notes. I may not be a head coach in the NBA, but the next female that's going to get an interview, they need to come see me because I know, like I know what comes with it and also will tell them that the NBA isn't ready.

Full disclosure. Almost all of our guests at this point have been from one of our phones, but we have secretly been keeping a wish list of guests that we would hope to have on someday. And today is one of those days. We are lucky enough. The one and only Don Staley, the head coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks. She has so many accolades that I could read off and it would take way too long. One of the coolest ones that I think I just have to say is she is the only person, an emphasis on person here, man or woman, to ever win the Naismith Award as a coach and a player. She is one of one and we are so happy to have her on. So can't wait. It's. It's hard honestly to pick a topic to start with, you know, start with you because there's so many. I had no idea when the, the history of your playing career, certainly, you know, modern history in the last few years of coaching and all your success. But I am interested, I think just to start things off in the book and the process of writing the book, like the genesis of what finally spurred you to do it. How was it? There's a lot of vulnerability in bearing it all. The good, the bad, opening up the curtain, the self reflection that goes into a lot of that. I just interested in your take now having been on this side of it. What's it been like going through that process?

Actually it's been smooth. Like a lot smoother than I thought. I like to work probably a little bit more under pressure. So this has been like a three year process and the first two years I was just convincing myself to do it. Like I made the commitment to do it so I was going to do it. It's just when and for me, I like timing. Like timing is key for me. Like I can, I can get things done when I feel like they're organic and they're just natural to do. So it took me about two years to just kind of wrestle with myself with do you start now? You start and then you stop. And it just didn't feel right. When we won our, when we won our championship in 2024 is like basically this is uncommon. Like you don't, you don't go an entire Season undefeated and not feel good about where you are in your career. And it finally settled me the gist. And we, and we did it with the. The most unlikeliest team. So that wasn't the best team I've ever coached by, by far. They probably, they probably were top 10, but probably not top 5.

They may disagree with that coach. So no offense, they may, they may disagree with you.

Oh, for sure would disagree with it. But I remember, I remember June of that year, July of that year, August of that year, because they were nowhere near. Like, I'm serious, Like, I contemplated like that I have the best of that. I had the best of my career already. Is this where the. Is with the downfall comes? Like, you really wrestle with it.

Wow.

For real. Because the year before we lost to Iowa, undefeated in the final four, and I felt like that was our best team, like our very best team. Just talent wise, just mentality wise, just. They did it the right way with no complaints. Like, that was the perfect team for me. And then we lose our starters, we lose two contributors, and then this team takes us back to that same place and they win it. And they did it in a fashion that was so unlike me. Like, it was more. I mean, I'm a disciplined coach. I'm a, you know, I'm a traditional coach. They were so untraditional. They. They made me follow them and it was a cool ride. So talk about, talk, talk, talk about that.

Like, what'd you learn?

What.

What did you learn? And you know, going from June to the, the national championship that next year, what was the biggest lesson you learned from that team?

Specifically?

1. There are multiple ways to skin a cat. Like, I learned that by them taking me through that. You know, I've been a part of national championship teams, so I kind of know what the key thing is to getting it done. And unless you won a national championship, you really don't know. You know, you got talent, you know, you got all this other stuff, but until you've able to just get over the mountaintop and understand it, you. It's probably. And I'm going to just say it's a. It's easier to go get another one because you know what, you need to get it done. But, but, but that team just had fun. I mean, they were. They just have fun through good times, through bad times. They just kept smiling. They just kept having a good time. They just kept talking. I mean, like, useless talking, like meaningless. Like it didn't have a rhyme or reason, but they liked each other. Like, they did it for each other. You know, I would say this. We were on our way to the final four, that team, and we're on the plane, and it's taking a while for us to take off. So I walked to the back of the plane, and one of our players just kind of tapped me on the shoulder, and she was like, when did you start liking us? Right? Like, busted.

Busted. Yeah.

And I said, I never not liked them. Right. I just didn't like their habits because I knew what it took to win. They just went about it the long way, like, the very long, fun way. And, you know, I think I'm a smart enough coach to kind of, you know, know. Know the pulse of the team and know when to push and pull. But this team had me. I mean, us coaches throughout the season, we would say, I mean, we're winning all these games. We win a big games. We played a tough schedule, and we're like, y' all drinking a coffee? Y' all drinking a Kool Aid yet?

Yep.

Right?

Yep.

So some of them were like, yeah, I'm drinking it. So I was like, I'm sipping. I'm sipping. I'm sipping. I'm not. I'm not. No big gulps over here. Right. So it was just so different, like. And I do think basketball is funny in a way that it. You put in so much work at times, and you don't end up winning the championship, but in. And in that moment, it was the repayment of. I mean, that team had to sacrifice that loss the year before, had to sacrifice for. For that kind of moment. So I think that was pretty cool.

Has that. Did it change your view on, you know, that the idea of them loving to be with each other and, like, loving and being grateful for, you know, each other and the season, has that changed? I mean, change your approach to whatever you thought they didn't have going into it and, like, how important that aspect is.

Well, they. They didn't change my approach. They changed like. Like, I know now that things don't have to be lined up like this. Right. I know now that whatever a team's identity is, go with the flow. If it's. If they're working hard, if they're executing, if they're approaching it the right way, let them do it the way they want to do it. Don't fight. Don't fight small battles that. That aren't. That have nothing to do with winning. Like, they talked a whole lot. Like, during practice, I'm talking like, you could. We could be explaining things, implementing things, and they just really couldn't help it. Yes. In the beginning, we were like, can y' all be quiet? And I'm not. Y' all probably don't have a sensor button, but I probably said something a little bit more harsher than that. Right.

You can say anything you want on this.

But now it's like, oh, they might be talking about what I. What we just put in. They might be. So you. You psych yourself out. Believe in that. That's what they're doing. Whether they're doing that or not, it really isn't a big deal in the whole grand scheme of things.

Well, Coach, you know, you'll appreciate this. I have three sons. They're 12. 12 and 11. Okay. And when we. They heard that you were coming on, they were impressed. They were excited. They were like, you have Coach Staley, so you should know that even young boys in California are pumped about getting to hear from you. So I thought that was kind of cool. They're really into hoops. But there was a couple of things that you mentioned in the book that I was pretty struck by. In men's basketball, there haven't been a lot of great players that have turned out to be great coaches. We talk about that a lot. A lot of times, the players that end up being coaches weren't standout players the way you were. They didn't have the resume you have. So one was, why do you think that works the. You know, for you?

Right?

And it hasn't worked for some of the people that would be your analogs in other sports. And then the second thing is, you transformed a lot. Both as a player. You talked about at Virginia changing. You talked as a coach. You've changed. What do you think has allowed you to be willing to change, given that you've had a lot of success doing it other ways?

I played the point guard position. So you. You see, some point guards are able to just make that. That next jump to coaching because most point guards are selfless. They're like, they want the team to move in a certain way. They're the coach on the floor. So you're just. You're just committed to that role. And, I mean, I didn't want to coach. Like, I never wanted to. Like, I didn't want to be a coach. Coaching really found me. Somebody saw something in me that I really. I truly did not see in myself. Like, I didn't want to be responsible for 18 to 22 year olds. And I got into coaching when I was 30, so I'm like, I mean, they're, they're closer to my age. I was, I was younger than their parents. So I, I, I'm like now I'm older than their parents. Right.

So that was a crazy anecdote. None of us knew or I don't know if Shane knew, but I didn't know that you coach started coaching when you were still playing. That is crazy. Crazy.

That is not normal. Yeah, that, I mean that was, that was the non negotiable. I wasn't not giving up playing the coach and I figured out a way to, to do it. Great staff, you know, the, the players were committed. The players used to come and watch me play. They used to take a, I don't know, 10 hour drive to Charlotte from Philly to watch me play. So it was a cool dynamic to, to actually doing both. And then you're, I mean, I just want to win. Like it doesn't, you know, I'm smart enough to go hire people who are smarter than me and have more experience than I, I do. I don't care where the answers come from as long as they're in the room, like in the room where it's the people that we assembled to, to be successful. So I think that's, that's part of, that's part of. I grew up the youngest of five, so I didn't really have a say in a whole lot growing up. So I was used to, you know, discernment. I was used to just knowing how to, how to pick people who I, I feel like connected with me the best. And not necessarily we don't have to agree there are certain things like you got to work hard, right? You got to sacrifice. You got to have to have an understanding of that. And once you do, you know, you can, you can do some things that are unimaginable. Like I didn't, you know, I got into coaching to win a national championship because that was one of my lifelong dreams, winning the national championship and, and being an Olympian and a gold medalist. So those are two things that drove me. I didn't ever think I was going to win a national championship because we didn't win one in college at Virginia. So I was like, okay, that's gone. Let me just work on this Olympic thing and try to get some gold medals. And that was cool. So I'm always been one that I can pivot. I mean, I can pick. I'm not gonna, I'm not going to replace my core values with something that isn't right. But I'll pivot for all the right reasons if it's going to move the chain in the team having success.

In the book, you call yourself a dream merchant, which is a great term. So talk to us about how you balance brutal reality with selling the dream and a vision that the player can't see and their families can't see for themselves. It seems like a fine line, and I think we've all lived that, and we'd love to hear your perspective on that with that.

I think it's all about consistency. You can't say it once because they'll hear it in the moment. Then when the tests are, you know, you might not play a whole lot. You might play a whole lot. You might not play any. Right? We say this all in the beginning of the season with the understanding of the type of talent that we attract. They're used to playing 32 minutes. In high school, the family is used to seeing them play 32 minutes. So when we say, you may not play, the parents are on the zoom. Their daughters are on the zoom. Because we start with zooms, we just kind of. And that's the conversation that's closer to the season. Starting the zooms in August and September, they're just like, get to know us, kind of get an understanding of how it works. And also when we're having those zooms, the parents are really speaking for us. They're speaking their experience with us. And when you hear it from another parent, you digest it a little bit differently. But when you build a relationship with someone and things aren't going as they envisioned, that's when you gotta have those talks that you've had. We said, this may happen, and here we are. So I gotta. I gotta give y' all a story, right? I mean, we got talented, talented, talented freshmen, like, you know, generational talents that come through our program, but they still make the transition. So there's one game, generational talent wasn't playing well. Just wasn't playing well. It's a nip and tuck game. So I played her the first half, but didn't play her the second half. We won on the road, right, at North Carolina. It's a big win for us. But I got a text message from the mom. She was like, yeah, yeah, this. This is stuff, right? The mom's like, my baby. Baby's crying. And, you know, you didn't play her, right? And I'm like, I actually did play her. I'm like, I actually did play her. She didn't play well, right? So we had to win the game. So this is what the mom did to me.

If you're not watching on video, she got a thumbs down emoji.

Okay?

If you're just listening for real, like.

Y' all know that, that, oh, gosh, this is me, y'. All. I got my phone in my hand and I'm like, 10.

Give me strength, Lord.

7. I had to give myself a 10 count, right? I did. So I. I said, look, we. We gonna have to be respectful when we talk to each other. Like, just use your words. Like, I know you're upset. I know all of that. I know what you know, the dynamics of the family, and you've never seen your daughter go through something like this. I said, but you. You really gotta trust the process. It's a process for her, right? And then we talked, exchange a few more text messages. At the end of the conversation, she said, coach, I trust you. And it's the buildup, it's the bill, it's the trust from all of those conversations that we had to get her to understand it, you know? And when I'm talking to parents and players, there's an emotional. There's an emotional part to them that's speaking, right? And then there's the facts, right? It's emotions and facts. You got to let them get their emotions out, but we still got to get down to the facts. Did you play well? Right? Did you execute? What are your numbers? Like? Like, it comes down to production and. But you got to give them that space to have their emotional breakdown because it's so new to them that they don't really understand. And. And you know, after that day, that. That talent was a lot different immediately. She was able to defend immediately because we had. We had one. We had one game one day in between. Then we had to play again. We had to play Duke, play North Carolina, Duke over a weekend. And she was much different in that game. So she played longer. There's no, like, there's no substitute for production. None. Zero. So it's just that constant push to. To. To force our players to. To play at their daily standard. And that's. That's hard. They need constant reminders, Coach, on that.

On that same note, we talk a lot about parenting, and you obviously me just kind of touched on it. And certainly there's a lot of new age parents, right, that are overly involved in their kids lives. They want to be best friends with their kids. And I. And I. One of my favorite chapters in the book is when you talk about your freshman year at UVA and how hard it was not Just on the personal side and the basketball side. And it was so fascinating. Right like that. And you're struggling in both areas. And your coach, Debbie Ryan, right. Kind of letting you fail and she's like, investing in you and school in Charlottesville is a big change and it's hard and. Right. Like, could you have imagined your mom sending a thumbs down emoji? Right. You know, as you're trying to find your way. And then again, I think all the growth that, that spurred you, like, talk about all the growth and the transformation that you had there, right. In your first few years again as a person and a player. Right. Like, do you think that parenting now, like so many snowplow parents, right, and they want to get out in front of their kids and they don't want them to struggle. Right. Like, do you see that?

That's my. That's. That's my life. That's my. That's my life. That is what I deal with all the time. And I get it. Like, we see it so much, we see it so much year to year that, that we can identify what it is so we can somewhat get, get ahead of it. And it's, and it's actually just constant communication. Like when you leave a young person and their parents, like on, on ice, they get to choose what path they want to go with, wherever they want to go with. And I'm like, nope, bring it right here. Like, I want you to tell me why you're upset. I want you to tell me where you think your child could get better. Right? But don't talk about other people. Kids. Don't compare yourself. Kids. Now, we not, we're not going to do that. Let's just talk about your child and where she is and what her, you know, what, what her improvements are or where she needs to. Where she needs to go. I, I do find that when you sit down and you actually talk to them and you give them the space to get it out, you can agree to disagree agreeably. But if they never had that space, that's why I, I want inclusion. I want, I want parents, I want the trainers. I want boyfriends, girlfriends, all, like, less. Because our player, our players are the principals. They're the principals. So we need the principals to, to. To succeed. Now, if I'm telling one of our players something, mom is saying something else, dad is saying something else, trainer saying something else. Like, we're not moving in the right direction. We don't have great synergy. So we get everybody in the room. And this is not all the players, it's just a few of them that, that have all these people in their ears and they want, they want to, to be the ones that are the reason for their, the principal success. I get that too, you know, but I, I don't think any of them have ever like won the national championship. Like they've never played at this level, so they don't know all the things that come with it. So by sitting down and talking, because I want to, I want to connect with the people that have the biggest voices in our players ears because they're, they got a lot. They got a lot. And I do find that when we're able to sit down and talk and hash out whatever we need to hash out and we all on one, on one accord, it really helps. It really helps. And then I mean access to me trainer, text me, text me, call me, mom, call me, dad, call whatever, whoever, call me and let's talk about it. Because I'm the only one that can really do something about it. Like I'm going to be the decision maker when it comes to this. So you might as well bring it here. And sometimes when you know, you get to a point where they're not hearing what you're saying, they'll leave you alone.

Alex, did your dad ever call Mike Singletary when he was cussing you out?

Just checking.

I'm just checking.

But coach, this is another place where I was like, Alex, all the parts about you talking about your freshman year experience in Virginia and then also the parts you talking about the parents being different, I was pretty struck by that because you could just imagine and I think somebody saying, look, I won three gold medals, okay? I'm not talking to some trainer about this thing. Like, you know, you see what I'm saying? Like you could really imagine a very reasonable perspective of like, I'm not. No. You know, like, I'll give you a ridiculous example. On my kids soccer team, that's like a good soccer program, okay? But like a kid's soccer team, the coaches are like, we are not talking to anybody but the player. The kids are 12 years old. They're like, do not, do not speak to us. If you have, the kid would like to speak to us, they can speak to us, that's fine. But we are not communicating with anyone else. This is a youth soccer program in California. And so I'm just trying the distinction for you of like, no, like I want, because I want to win, I will deal with all this stuff. I will go have those conversations. That is an extraordinarily unique, you know, thing that I was writing down notes about leadership when I was reading the book, because it's sort of like, look, if winning is the thing, you would cut your nose despite your face if you said, look, I'm not talking to anybody else, you know.

Yeah. But you also have to realize that these parents have invested.

Yeah.

Aau. Like. Like, they've given up their life savings. So now we're in the space of nil, you know, being, you know, brand ambassadors, all of that. They want their money back. They want a return of their investment. Right. And they. They. They look at coaches as the dollar signs. Like, you are. You are going to be the one that determines whether or not my child's going to get paid or not. So. So. And I'm like, I'm not the one. The production is like, I'm not the one. Because production is. Is nameless and it's faceless. Like, long are gone the days of parents, like, not saying anything. My mom would have never. Like, my mom always said, the adult is the right is. Is right. Always. The adult is always right. Coach is always right. So she never got into that. And I'm like, I. I do feel coach is always right, but I gotta talk to the parents.

Was that something you learned or, like, you know, obviously it was very different when you started coaching. Like, the. The snowplow parent wasn't there. Like, when did you learn that lesson?

I mean, I've always been that way. Like, I. I think it was just that I was so much closer to my player's age. Right. And I just always talk to parents. I just always talk to them. Like, it wasn't. Like, I didn't. You know, I didn't see one coming and go left. Like, I did not. I invited. Because I want cli. I want that. When there's clear communication, I do think I work better. I work better. When we're clear, everybody's clear. Like, now, there are times. There was a time when I was. When I cut off a parent. There's a time when I just said, nope, I'm just going to deal with your. You. Your daughter. And then I would go to her daughter and we would take a walk. Like, again, I'm gonna give you stories. Like, there was one of my players who transferred in, and she was used to shooting probably 25 times a game, but she was looking for something different. So she transferred in. And I told her. I told him when we were recruiting her on a visit, like, you'll probably get maybe a third to half of your shots that you got at your other spot, right? So it got to a point where, you know, she, she wasn't, you know, she was. She. She didn't feel like she was getting the ball, so she said, basically, I'm not getting the ball. And then she said, I don't, I don't want the ball to shoot it. I just want to feel it in the beginning of the game. I mean, that's an easy fix. That's an easy fix. So I, I would run the first two plays to her in the game, do your thing, whatever. Like, it's an easy fix. But, you know, mom, mom was like, you know, this is not the right place for my daughter. You don't develop guards. Like, they all say that. I don't develop. My best players have been, have been post players, but it's not because I don't have good guards. It's just they're. They're very good. Asia Wilson, Aaliyah, Boston, like, they've been very, very good.

Yeah, they're good.

Pretty good. Pretty good.

So it's that. So I, I am inclusive. Like, I, I want to sleep well at night knowing that, that I'm not. I don't have p. Disgruntled parents who are, you know, who are porn in there, pouring that into their, Their, their daughters. And then it, it seeps out, you know, to the team. So let's sit down and talk. I don't, I don't like, I don't have one on one meetings to give our players their roles. I give their roles as a team. Like, out. We're sitting here. This is your role. This is your role. This is your. So they can hear what their roles are. And I'll tell them their roles can change. You know, the production part of it. Like, your role doesn't have to stay the same. But this is what I've seen for the, for the eight weeks that we've been practicing leading up to the season. And, and they can hold each other accountable for their roles. And then if they, if they, if they disagree, then we can go, ha. We can come have the one on one. But I'm going to give everybody their role as a team.

Have you seen the meme of yourself on the bench where you yell the. Where you drop a big F bomb.

And you go like, yeah, espn. Yeah, ESPN has a way of really put me in the, in the bad spot. I don't, I don't. That was me in that moment. That's how I felt.

Well, the reason I Was laughing was. Because now you know, you're like a meme. Like on my text chains, if something bad happens to somebody, you know, they just send a picture of you doing that. And so that has gone, you know, you've like, you've gone real viral with that one. And I'll tell you, it is one of the funniest things. And so I send it, people send it to me. And so, you know, you should know you are helping a bunch of people communicate with each other with that.

Yeah, yeah. That people can get their release from me. From my meeting. Exactly.

Coach, you've been, you've been to so many mountaintops. Like, I mean from youth basketball, high school, college, like professional playing, obviously even more as a, as a coach. I'm so fascinated by a story in the book on one. And when you grew up, there was no professional women's league. So your, one of your main goals was to win a gold medal and you didn't make the 92 team after being the two time Naismith player of the year. And then you get on the 961 and you win gold and you talk about the story. I like visualizing the story of you receiving your gold medal and, and talking about, you know, give me mine. And Philly coming out was so amazing, but I was so. It's what happened after that I find fascinating. Right. And that you talked about kind of the funk that you went in after because you, you, you achieved this like childhood dream, this, this goal, this end point. And I'm so fascinated on like why you think that has happened. And then you've achieved so much since then. Right. And so does your approach to achievement and success. And we talk a lot about inputs versus outputs, right. And like focusing on the inputs rather than these outputs. And from a mental health standpoint, Right. And even like a sustainability, I'm just so interested on like that story, why you thought that happened and why do you have a different approach to again, successes.

That's the only time that that's happened. Like you get your, your lifelong dream right at it at an early age and you're like, well, what do you do now? Like, I mean, what, why? And only really wanted one. I, I didn't, I wasn't greedy and I was like, I won two, I want three, I want five. I wanted one, I wanted one. And then really I go home, went back to Philly. I'm just like, I don't want to touch a ball. I don't want, like, I have no desire to go work out. Like Nothing. I do think I was a little depressed, and I do think that it came out of nowhere. Like, I'm. I think I'm a pretty tough person. Like, in general. Like, I'm from North Philly, like, tough. And then something like this happens and you can't control it. And. And I. I did have to report to my. My abl. Like, the ABL was the first women's professional league that started right before the wnba. So I made a commitment to them, and I had to be in training camp that my. My head coach is. Is. Is our associate head coach. Like, she's been with me for 23 out of my 25 years coaching. Like, she's in the office right next. And I talked to her, and I was like, I don't know what it is. I can't. I'm not there. Like, I. Mentally, I'm not. I can't come. So she gave me about two weeks, and then I started to just kind of look outward because we're always looking in, and we're like, this is how I'm feeling. Like, it's so personal and selfish, right? Like, and I don't even. I don't have a selfish bone in my body. So I started looking at my teammates are in training camp, like, they're. They're formulating the bond. They're forming chemistry, and I'm not there. And I know I was going to play a big role in our success. So I was like, let me get down there. And the moment I made that decision to go down there, immediately I was done. I was done with the depression and all of that. But I will say this, that I think I was mentally exhausted because we had trained for a year prior to the Olympic game, and. And it was hard. Like, it was probably harder than it needed to be. You know, I mean, hindsight's 20 20, but it was hard. It was a mental, physical drain. But my teammates went to their. My teammates, the Olympic team went to their teams, and it didn't have that kind of effect on them. So I don't know why I had that type of effect on me. But I. I know all the signs now. Like, I'm in. I'm a college coach. I know all the signs. When you're. When your behaviors change, like, the things that you normally do, the way that you approach people, when all those things change, I. I ask those questions. Hey, what's going on? You good? Like. Like, so I'm in tune with. With identifying what that. What that looks like. One. Because I felt it right. I experienced it. And two, I mean, being, being a college coach for 25 years, I would say, you know, we have an ability to identify behaviors, although we're not psychologists. You know, we are creatures of habit and we are creatures of seeing habits and good habits and bad habits and habits that we, we need to address.

Coach, I had another question for you from the book. One of my favorite parts was when you talked about the stories we tell ourselves can be just as harmful as the stories some things anybody says about us. And we had another guest, Wright Thompson, who's a writer, and he has this line, which is the stories we tell ourselves are the armor that we put up against the world. Right. Like, it's like that's who we are. And so as I think about that, can you just talk about that a little bit more? Like, that insight of like, the stories we tell ourselves can be more harmful than what the worst things people say about us. Can you just talk a little bit more about what you meant by that?

I mean, self talk is real. Like, it's real. Like it becomes your reality. If you don't use it the right way. You, you go into like a national championship game or any, like any big game, you know, you, you, you can have the best preparation. Like, there's no more you can do. You, you got your assignment. You just have to go out there and execute. But there's a little bit of self doubt. Like, like, and it's a, it's a anxiousness that, that can work against you, that the anxiousness will cause you to start second guessing your preparation. And it happens to the best of us. But then, you know, when you, when the game starts, you snap out of it and you start, you start telling yourself other stuff. You start seeing your, your preparation go to work. And then it, it allows you to build off of that. But the negative, like, I, I talk about this. Like, I, I talk about pro habits, like creating habits, creating really good habits. Because when you, when you create habits, whether they're good or bad, you could be really good at them. Yeah, you could be really good at a habit that's not good for you.

Yeah.

And vice versa. You could be really good at something that's really good for you and it's going to take you to the next level. So. And it starts with that self talk. Self talk. Like, one of the most, like, gratifying moments for me as a coach is when I heard one of my players, like Chloe Kitts, I mean, she had a big, she had a big postseason game, like we're in the postseason NCAA tournament. And she had a. She had it rolling. She would not let her lose. She had big play after big play after big play. And she got up on that. That podium and she talked about, you know, what she was telling herself, like, she's at the free throw line. She was like, girl, you better make this right. This is her, like, her saying this to herself. I mean, she. She put a little doubt, like, if you don't make this, we gonna lose. Like. Like. But it. It pushed her to a place where she focused enough to knock down those free throws. But she took us. She took us down. You know her. She took us down. She took us through her process of how she overcame the little bit of doubt that just eked into her. Her psyche. But before that, she probably would have missed the free throws because she. She would have talked herself out of making them for some reason. So I think it's pretty cool that when. When. When again, that's a dream merchant moment. Dream merchant, you know, doesn't necessarily mean you always get, like, you know, the player gets to get to the. Go to the wnba. A dream merchant moment is when they. When they find themselves. When they. When they really find who they are, because when they do, they're going to be successful. So it's just not the tangible thing. The. The intangible things. When you're able to equip yourselves with them, you know, the. The tangible is a foregone conclusion that is going to happen.

I'll never forget the feeling that I had when I was getting ready to play Kobe. Okay. So, like, Kobe was the. The one guy that made me lace them up just a little bit tighter. Who was that? Who was. Who was that person for you that you knew you're going up against? No, you might have had an extra Gatorade. You know, you might have laced them up a little tighter for that night.

It was probably like a Teresa Edwards talk about that. Not Teresa Edwards, Teresa Weatherspoon. Because she played point guard like me.

Yeah.

I don't know. I mean, Teresa Teaspoon is what we call it. She was a great defender. Like, she hawked the ball, and she'll tell you about it. Like you. She. She gonna talk. She gonna talk her stuff, right? So I just really got up to play her. Like, there was a. There was a time, you know, where. Where we started the season, like one. Like one in ten. Like, one in ten. Great. We had a talented team. We were losing games, you know, by a possession or two. Right. And then we Ended up making the playoffs. We ended up the season like 17 and 4, our last 21 games. And we had to see them in the first round of the playoffs. And I believe we were down one. Like, we were down one to them. Came back and won two games. But it was. It was. It was our matchup that I felt like we had to win. Because if she was able to apply pressure and disrupt us, you know, you cut. You know, you cut the head off, the rest, the body's gonna go type thing. So I had to. I had to really handle her in all the antics that came with her. But I always, like, it didn't matter whether it was playoffs or not. I thought Spoon brought the best out of me. I. I didn't have to play the Kobe types. I. I didn't have to play.

By the way, coach, do you have a coaching version?

Ah, that's a good question. I mean, I mean, I. I mean, to beat Gino. Yeah, you know, is a. Is. Is a pretty big deal. The beat Kim Mulkey. Pretty big deal. Like, it. It is. I mean, these are even Tar Vandevere, you know, who coached me in the. In the 1996 Olympic team, you know, because. Because I. I know how they study the game. I know what they pour into their players. So I know if you beat them, you. You really are out strategizing them. And it's not. It's not like, you know, some of it is you. You're. You're very talented and, you know, but when, you know, when both teams are talented, totally, right, what is, you know, what is the thing that's going to neutralize all of that? It is, you know, knowing when to call a play, you know, to create an advantage, knowing when to switch up your defense to create advantage. So it's those type of things that those coaches are notoriously prepared to strategize in a way that, to outfox you, you.

You gave a part of the NET from the first national championship to all the Division 1 black women head coaches. I think you, when you interview with the Trailblazers, you took the notes, but you took them deeply so that the next woman that was interviewing would know exactly what they were asking. Where does that, like, pay it forward come from?

You know, I mean, I'm just a giver. Like, I want people to succeed. Like, I really do. I want everybo to put their. Their best foot forward and succeed because I, you know, I'm. I'm pretty happy with my life. I'm pretty happy with. With the decisions That I made. Like, I'm. My life is fulfilled, and I get more fulfillment out of seeing people do some things that they. They didn't think they could do. Right? So, again, like, I. I just interviewed for the Knicks. I took notes. Like, I may not be a head coach in the NBA, but the next person that. That's going to get it, the next female that's going to get an interview, they need to come see me because I know, like, I know what comes with it. And also will tell them that the NBA isn't ready because you have to get ready for a female head coach. You can't just make the decision, oh, that's my coach, and not have it impact the whole organization. I'm talking about front office, I'm talking about players, I'm talking about media, all those things, because it will turn their jobs. I wouldn't say upside down, but different. You got to answer different questions, and you're. You're not quite prepared for it because you never had to turn on that side of your brain. Like, you never. You know, y' all guys don't think that way.

No, for sure. We don't think. We don't think much. You know, on that note, by the way, basketball is by far the closest, though. Like, I mean, I. Football is like stone age right there. There are not many, you know, women coaches in football, baseball. Right. All the other major sports. I think basketball in that regard is ahead of the game. But what do you see as, like, the biggest challenges? I mean, you talk about growing up and you. You played with the boys growing up, right, In Philly and the pickup games and, like, what that did for you. What do you see as the biggest challenges as a coach? You know, stepping into that role. If. If, like, for you or whoever else.

It may be, you know, the. The biggest challenge is just getting over the fact that you're, you know, you're not of that gender. Like, once you get down, it's just basketball, that. That you're. You're. You're moving the needle in somebody's career. Once somebody sees that, it changes immediately. Once you see you're helping someone. Once someone sees you're helping them, you know, gain a. In a. An advantage in their. In their. In their sport. It's genderless at that point, but it takes some time. Like, it takes them. You. It takes some time. Like, I. There's no doubt. There's no doubt that, you know, that I. That I couldn't get the job done. Like, I. I could. I can coach, you know, Any level. Right? I. I can coach any level. Because. Because I'm about people. Yeah, I'm about people. Like, damn the sport. If you get to the person, you're gonna. You're gonna move them. Like, basketball is the commonality. Basketball is easy. We're not. We're not doing any. Like, it's all recycled. Like. Like it ain't. You ain't bringing something completely new to the table. It's all recycled stuff. You just gotta know when to hit it, when to hit it. Like, it's not. And if you don't. If you don't have them as a human being and a person, you ain't gonna be able to coach them no matter what gender. Gender you are.

Coach. You know what's crazy is that, like, we talk about this a lot on our podcast, but, like, sports, business, life, parenting, everything you just said applies so much beyond gender. In basketball right now, in Silicon Valley, where me and Alex live, all these companies are AI companies, right? And there's all this talk. How do you run an AI company? How do you run an AI company? You know what the answer is? The same way you run a non AI company. Because you have to get the right people involved, right? And you have to make sure that they're rowing in the same direction. You have to make sure that they're motivated. You have to make sure it's all the same stuff. And it's the same thing you just said of, like, look, you know, there is not something. If you are focused on people and you're actually a good people leader. You know what? You can lead people in anything. You don't have to coach basketball. You could lead anything. You know, you talk about Fortune 500 CEOs in your book. You could be one of those. It's just a matter of, you know, gathering people around a common goal, being willing to have a tough conversation, holding the standards high. There's a bunch of stuff that just works everywhere.

That's it. Like, I don't. Like, I mean, that's it. It's. There's no, there's no secret to, to, you know, success, obviously, when it's, you know, when it's, when it's. When it's. Your subject matter, like, you know, and everybody's good in your subject matter. What's the differentiator? It's how you get the people to perform and execute the subject matter.

You know, I have, you know, listening to your conversation, coach. You know, communication has been in every answer you've given. So I have to. I have to push back on the team that you didn't think was your best team might have been the best communicating team. And there's something about that team I'm also passionate about. I've never been. I've never won big on a team that's quiet, you know, I'm sure you haven't either. And so, you know, if, if that squad is listening out there, I'm giving you props. You're the greatest team ever under Coach Bailey.

I equated that team. I equated that team to, to, to. To a daycare because that's what it seemed like. Like, it was like the kids are being kids and. But it was, it was cool. It actually got. It picked up some steam. Like they called it Dawn's Daycare, but that, that particular team. And it's, it's cool now. They're, they're. Some of them in the pros, they, like. I graduated from daycare, right?

So champions. It's forever.

Yes.

Champions.

Coach, have you had to adjust your coaching style? Like, I mean, you talk about the discipline, right, that you, you learned a lot of from your mom. You talk about in the book and obviously showing up as a coach and your coaching mentors that you had. Have you had to adjust? You've, you've been a coach before nil. Now you are the nil. And there's transfer portal. And can you be a tough love coach, right? Like, obviously you talked about the importance of communication, but has that had to change at all with the emergence of obviously the ability of these, you know, kids to obviously change schools on, on a moment's notice if they are unhappy? Can you, can you still have that same approach and have success in this, you know, in today's game?

Yeah, I don't. I think that's a core value for me. Like, that's, that's, that's just who I am. I'm a very disciplined coach. There are ways that you have to, you have to communicate that discipline. It is not just because I said so, like, those days are right. It is okay if I had to make a, a change in a starting lineup, because I had to do that when we won our first national championship. So I, I took out a junior, inserted a freshman point guard, because I just felt like she is going to take us to the next level. Right. So what do you do with the junior? Right? So you have to come up with innovative ways to get her to understand that it's, it's really not a demotion because, because one I said, I said when you go to the next level, you ain't starting. You're gonna play your natural position. Coming off the bench, that's one, that's one thing I said. But I also did this. The, the junior was also a point guard, but she was a, she was a shoot first aggressive point guard wanting to get off. And we had a team which they needed the ball, the other people needed the ball. So I was like, you come off and I did it during Christmas break, right? I said, I said, I said, right before Christmas, hey, I might, I might make a change, right? So I might make a change to the starting lineup. I didn't say who or what. I let them go home with it, right when they came back, and I was like, this is what I'm feeling. Like, you got to tell them exactly, this is what I'm feeling. This is for the greater good of our team, you know, and then I'm like. And then I, I, I did show, I showed the junior, like, here are the point guards that you would be playing if you were a point guard in an NBA, wnba. Right now, these are the starters for the eight teams. You're coming off the bench, like for each of one of those franchises. And then I said, but for us, when you come off the bench for us, go play your natural way. Go get buckets. Go do what you need to do. We just didn't need it at the beginning of the game because we had to get everybody else involved. And then the two of them had a really good relationship. So I think we had that working in our favor too, that, you know, you could be disgruntled as somebody that you don't like, that's your competitor in that, in that position. But they really liked each other. And then the fact that we won, you know, no one really, that story never really came up because we were all winners. So it's the way you go about doing it. You can't just say, I'm making a change. Executive decision is, I'm making a change. You're out, you're in. You can't do it that way anymore. You got to explain it, and you got to keep explaining it. You got to explain it to the parents. And, you know, Asia Wilson. Asia Wilson started her first game here at South Carolina. Stunk it up. Oh, she was bad, right? So I was like. And I see, I saw her struggle. I did. Because we had a core group that was, that played well together. And then I was like, asia, I gotta, I gotta, I gotta take you out of the lineup. I gotta Bring you off the bench. So I had to. I had to call her mother, right? And her mother. I did like you. This is the. The biggest. The best recruit that we've ever had. You can't just do that and not inform the parents. So the mom, I said, I gotta take her out. Like, I gotta let her see the game a little bit. She's feeling the pressure of being a local star. And then the mom was like, you sure? Mom was like. I said, I'm sure. You're gonna have to trust me on this, right? And then at the end of the year, Asia was the national freshman of the year, right? Rookie of the year in our league. All sec. Like, she got all the awards that she would have gotten if, you know, if she was started. So it ended up working out. And then, you know, when she got up to come into the game, the crowd went crazy. Like, crazy. So it is just explaining things a little bit more in depth to the players and their significant people in their lives.

Coach, the show is, you know, called Glue Guys, right? And so we try to celebrate. It can be glue gals, glue people, okay? But we try to celebrate the people that are under celebrated but make teams go and doesn't even have to be in basketball. But we always ask everyone, who are the glue people in your life?

I got a couple of. One is Coach Boyer. Lisa Boyer, who. I mean, she really has sacrificed her career to help me as. As a coach because I never had any assistant coaching. Like, I didn't go through the ranks. You know, I went right to being a head coach. And that's hard when you don't know. Like, I didn't. I didn't know about a budget. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know the administrative stuff. Like, I knew how to coach, right? I knew basketball, you know, but she was always one that would, you know, even when she wasn't with me the first two years of my career, she would just, you know, give me a checklist of things that I. That I needed to know. And then when I begged her, like, I. I mean, I. I used to call her, I'm like, you coming? Like, I need. I need you. And then because she was coaching in the WNBA at the time, and I. I needed her and she came and she is my glue person. Like. Like, she is loyal, she's smart, she's experienced, she knows me. She works harder than me. Like, it's. I mean, we're. We're probably like an old couple.

That's awesome.

Well, Coach, this has been Unbelievable. This is such a treat and can't thank you enough again for your time.

This is awesome. Thank you.

We are huge fans. We respect you a ton. And it was. We respected you before reading your book and then even more after and then even more after today. Thank you.

Yes.

Amazing role model. Keep, keep, keep doing it. Keep doing it. Don't change. Don't ever change.

Thank you for reading the book. I. I appreciate that. Because some people don't read the book, right?

No.

On that note, Coach, I do have to admit, I listen to it.

Okay.

Give you a shout out because you read the whole thing and it is so cool to hear, hear you tell your story. So for all the non readers out there to get the audible.

Well, Coach, I also have another request which is I need, I need some more copies because I got three sons who want to read it simultaneously. So I need, I need a few more copies so that.

We got you. We got you. We got you. And I want you to know you only got eight hours of the audiobook. It took me 30 to read it.