Fatherhood - [Glue Guys, EP.23]

Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey. Welcome to Glue guys. We're your host, Shane Battier, Ravi Gupta, and Alex Smith.

And we're bringing you behind the scenes of the locker rooms, the boardrooms, and the living rooms that taught us everything we know about what it takes to be great leaders and even better teammates and friends.

We hope the conversation helps you bring more ambition and more joy to your own work life and relationships. It certainly has for us.

All right, boys, special topic today. Even more special than, I think, a typical topic. You know, we're gonna talk about fatherhood today. I think the spur for this, Alex, was actually your Instagram reel you sent to us, the one at Gino from UConn. You should describe it. And then, you know, I can tell you why it made me think that.

We should talk about being dads shamelessly on Instagram. And saw this real. It's Gino Ariana, right? Is that you say his name?

Yeah.

Yep.

Obviously the Yukon, you know, women's basketball coach. I don't know how many titles he's won. An absurd amount. And he was talking about one of his players, experience with their parents coming to a game and. And obviously all his players, their parents travel, you know, some further than others and come to games and this idea of. Of being in the car to and from a sporting event or any activity with your parent. And like, and. And really the after the fact, the drive home right after a game, and he was talking about the differences of players that, like, dread these talks and have anxiety, right? You know, maybe they didn't score enough points or they didn't perform at a high enough level, and they get in the car with their parents and they relive these experiences, right? You know, and they rehash these things versus. He had this player who. Whose parent, I think dad never did anything like that. You know, drove a long way to go see her play. And she was talking about how her dad, they. On the drive home, she loves it so much, but they don't talk about basketball. And the dad pretty much was like, I come to see you, right? Like, I don't come to. I don't care how many points you score, right? Like, I don't care about that. Like, obviously, I love watching you play, but I just, you know, I'm coming to spend time with you. And it really made me think, because, you know, we live here in the Bay Area, Ravi, and like, you spend sometimes, like, going to and from a sporting event after school or on the weekends. Like, it can take, you know, 30 minutes each way. And that's. It's an hour of certainly quality time that you have with your kids. And it is. It's something that I cherish. Like, I really work hard to be around in the afternoons after school, you know, to be there with my kids and driving to and from. And it really made me introspective about those times and things that I may be signaling to my kids. Right. And I. I have three very different kids. My oldest son is very sporty, a lot like me, you know, every season, I mean, he's in two to three different sports at all times.

He's.

He's your firstborn?

My oldest. Yep. And he's very competitive kid.

Probably.

Is he over six feet now? I was hearing the other day someone said that he's like, just sprouted.

Yeah. He's growing quick. Sleeping a lot. Growing fast. He's like. He's. He just passed his mom.

Yeah.

So big dad. Big dad.

And anyway, so like, I thought about this because I.

Well, go through the rest of them. You got one, you know, and then my.

My middle guy, my middle son, who's a sixth grader, is just. He's the most unique kid. He is so talented, so creative. He is in all arts. Right. Like, so, I mean, man, this guy, he wants to be the next Steven Spielberg. He's a thespian. He's in musicals, he can sing, he can dance. He's the lead in, like every musical he goes out for. And it's just natural. Like, this kid's got. He's musically talented. It gives none of this from me, by the way. This is so foreign to me. I have. I don't have an ounce of any of this talent and I marvel at it. But again, it's so foreign to me. So, like, our rides in the car are so different. Right. Like, after his things, like, I'm. I have no business you know, analyzing anything he's doing. I'm just such a fan. And again, I love it. And we goof off and there it is. Not a serious conversation. I don't grind on him at all. And then my daughter dances and does competitive dance, which, by the way, is bananas, because you want to talk about the most subjective thing in the world, your little girl going up there by herself or with a group. And it's very athletic, but she's literally being judged literally by these, you know, and it's like. And then they hand out these trophies and medals and you're getting compared against one another. I have a hard time with this one. But anyway, it's so subjective, but all three are so different. And so my rides with all of them, whether it be dance carpool, you know, theater carpool, or the soccer carpool, are all very different in my. And it made me think about that, that maybe the pressure I may be adding to my oldest son, because I. Do we. Do we. I've done this. I've rehashed games. I've. You know, I've been that. And what. What am I? Is that healthy at all? You know, and. And again, my experiences with my other two, especially my middle son, who again, we. We listen to show tunes in the car and laugh and goof off. And, like, I don't. There's no.

At all.

I just don't even have, again, the background to be analytical about what he's doing.

Right.

Like, again, I'm just so proud and happy for him. And again, it's. So. Anyway, like, that just was on my mind. We talk a lot about fatherhood, and again, it obviously makes me think about my relationship with my dad, which is phenomenal. And again, those same moments, right, of being in a car, the good times, the bad times, and leaning on him and did the game.

What did he say to you? Obviously, that's, you know, we're going to talk about our dads a ton on this. On this episode. What'd your dad say to you?

I never had pressure to perform for my dad, ever.

Ever.

And, you know, and at times when I didn't perform and I was at my lowest, like, for me, middle school baseball was the worst, worst, because, like, everybody. I felt like everybody around me had hit puberty and I hadn't, you know, and all of a sudden, kids are throwing really hard, and it's like Pony League baseball. And I was little and I struggled at the plate a lot at that time. Right. Guys are throwing fast and curveballs and stuff. Just really lost my confidence at the plate and can remember, like, tears in the car, man, lots of times coming up from games where I wasn't playing or I'd struggled. And, you know, my dad, obviously, at times, like, just pulling the car over and talking and I think trying to help me with perspective and, you know, you know, like, it's a. It's a teachable moment.

No pressure academically, either. Alex, you said no. No pressure to perform in sports, but was there any pressure to perform academically? He's a principal, you know, I think.

In all these things, and this was the. The answer to that question is, like, effort was expected, though, right? Like, attitude and effort Were two things, like you were going to be a great teammate, but effort, effort was the best way to show it and like hustle. So that if I ever heard my dad critique me, it was about that.

Right?

It was, it was literally lack of effort. And so school was probably the same thing. Like I wasn't, if I wasn't applying myself, certainly that was, you know, brought up. And my dad's like, he's not afraid of confrontation, right? Like that's. So that, that, yeah is my only as my distinct thing. And then I really struggle. And Shane, I love your perspective because like my oldest son grew up, his dad played professional football for a long time. Like that he somehow thinks this is like a normal reality maybe and achievable. And like the pressure, like he shows up at practice and has to deal with who his dad is and other kids talking about it again, like it just really made me think about when I go drive him to soccer or football practice or basketball games. Like what? You know, and I think for all of us in fatherhood, like we're just trying to do the best we can and like none of us have the answers and figure it out.

I'm still waiting to find the instruction manual you guys come across again.

I wish, I wish.

You gotta pass a test to drive a car, but they let you bring the baby home?

No.

Nothing.

Yeah, I mean, to your point, Alex, like, do you remember that moment when you took your firstborn home from the school or from the hospital? You're scared and you've closed the door and it's just you and mama and the baby and you're like, what the hell? No, I mean, I've been terrified only a few times in my life and that qualify as one, right? And you know, we all have, we all have boys as our firstborn. I have a 16 year old boy and 13 year old daughter and I don't think I've cried this hard ever when my son came out. So, you know, my wife and I made a decision. We're not going to find out what we're having. It's like the last thing you know that Google can't tell you. You know, the search engines can't tell you. So it's the last great surprise, so we're not going to find out. And so had a hunch of the boy didn't know. But when he came out and I saw his, you know, his little tally whacker there, I mean I cried. You know, my wife still makes fun of me but like it's amazing. Like, at that moment. And if you're a dad, I think you understand that just like, how many hopes and dreams you have at that single moment. And just like all the visions you have and we all played sports and so like, you know, just throwing the ball with, with your, with your boy, you know, with your kid and just all the hopes and dreams you have in that one instance is the memory that I will never forget. And, you know, sometimes it's good to remind ourselves of that moment right now and go and going through these things, it's hard, man. It's. It's hard, hard. So I empathize with you, Alex. On, on the ride home. It's, it's, it doesn't get any, any easier. I'm the little older kids, you know, and, you know, we, we've all seen a lot in our short, you know, our young lives. We have a lot of experience and I think we're all givers by nature. And so we just, we just want to, like, oh, we want to give of ourselves and give our, get. Give our kids, like, our experiences so they don't make the same dumb mistakes. But like, that's, that's the rub. That's, that's the irony. Like, they gotta go through it, you know, they gotta fall and they gotta get up and learn and get tough. And so, you know, it's always a balance between letting them fail, letting them learn, not allowing them to have too much pain and suffering. Right? And I have a good friend who told me, look, we want our kids to fail. Well, that's the goal. If they can fail well, then we've done our job.

Shane, do you work. Your son's in high school and obviously plays basketball. Do you work with him at all, like, fundamentally?

I coached him last four years. Two years in middle school and two years in high school. And since he switched schools, I've retired to the bench, which is a whole different episode for us. A terrible basketball dad was a way better basketball coach. I'm very cognizant of what I tell him and just because his experience is much different from the standpoint of, like, all I did was watch basketball growing up, and I watched sports. And so it was a very different experience than my kid. My kid plays video games, so he knows, like, basketball players from NBA, 2K and video games, you know, and he'll watch some games, he'll watch a quarter. So like, the nuance that I knew from just watching the Detroit Bad, the Bad Boys, Pistons, you know, like, hard follows, like, I knew how to how to hard follow a guy when I was in, like, second grade, because that's what, like, the bad boys, you know, Detroit, right? So, like, trying to teach my kid, like, hey, when you hard follow someone, you don't want to, like, you don't want to, like, kill them, but you want to let them know, like, you know, you can't come in the lane. And so it was like. There's so much, like, nuance that I always try to be cognizant of that comes just from, like, our upbringing and, and playing pickleball and playing, like, like, tougher rough and games that our kids didn't get to play. And that's like, the hardest part is to convey nuance, which the best players have the best nuance. And, you know, you can do skill work and, and understand sort of the macro of defense and how to get in the stands. There's so much nuance that we try to transfer, you know, and especially being a quarterback, I mean, good Lord, it's all nuance, you know, 100 nuance.

So when you were coaching him, though, was it hard at all to, like, turn on and off the dad coach thing or.

I treated him like Coach K treated me, all right. I treated him fairly. And I tried to, you know, because I was always cognizant. I didn't want people to say, oh, you're so up on Z. I also didn't want to be a jerk to him and, like, make him example just because he was, like, the best player and he was my kid. I tried to set standards for him, which I think all dads do, to say, this is the standard. I think this is what you're capable of, and, hey, a great job meeting it, or you're falling short. We, we, we need more from you and understanding that. So, like. But I was very, I was very, very conscious of, of how I spoke to him in front of others by himself. But I loved it. I loved it. I loved it. And it's something that I, I, I will never regret. So if you're listening, and you can be, you can coach your kids in any sport, you know, you know, whether it's chess, whether anything, get involved, you'll never regret it. Robbie, how about you? How about you? You know? Yeah. When the, when the twins came out, first of all, did you know you're having twins? We did.

We did.

Okay. I don't know if you're one of those stories that, oh, oh, got a, you know, got a bonus. You know, you had double the hopes and dreams that we did in that. In that moment. And double the anxieties.

What did you call it?

Double anxiety. Double Double dreams. Double dreams and double Anxiety.

People always joke, you know, when you tell them they have. You have twins, people always say the same, oh, you have your hands full. Or then they say, two for the price of one. I'm like, no, two for the price of two. Okay. There is no two for the price of one. You know, element of twins. No, I mean a lot in there. So one.

Yeah.

I remember when they came out, they were early. You know, twins oftentimes come early, and so it was scary. They were small, really small. Like, Nyan was 3 pounds, 12 ounces, Shreya was 4 pounds, 6 ounces. And so, you know, I think for someone who doesn't know, I mean, there were 34 weeks, so, you know, six weeks early. And, you know, there are people that deal with much worse, but like our kids were in the NICU for two weeks, you know, when they came. And so, you know, I truly would tell you I'm not sure there's any better people in the world than neonatal NICU nurses, you know, like these people that like, keep babies alive in like, you know, the incubators or whatever, like you said. I mean, like, you know, when they came out, I cried, you know, and I had all the thoughts. All the thoughts. And then of course, like, you know, this immediate thing of you. We didn't actually get to bring them home for two weeks. And so, you know, you're. You're in this thing and you're kind of watching them in there. And I think Avni was a little bit more. A little bit more sanguine than I was, because I think being a doctor, she kind of knew that they were gonna be okay. I think when you're not that like. And the kid comes out and he's £3 viscerally. I didn't know he was gonna. They were gonna be okay, you know, and so I just wanted them to come home and they actually. So anyway, that was. But I remember exactly what you said about like the bringing them home. I remember Avni sitting in the back, you know, with both of them back there and just driving like, you know, I don't know, three miles an hour or something. And it's in New York and you're just like mad at everybody for driving fast. Slow down, you know, that was crazy. I time me coming out. Like, we just brought them home and I. One of them was on the changing table. And I remember like not wanting to get it wrong. So I came out and left them in the room for a second and came out to be like, hey, what do I do with this diaper? She's like, would you leave him in there? I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's like, you can't leave him in there. So I'm like, go back. And I would remember later being like, I thought they couldn't turn over at this age. Like, I thought that literally the whole point is that, like, we have a changing table and they can't get out. And she's like, no, ours are so small that their heads are so big relative to their body that the rules of a normal newborn doesn't apply. Like, he could actually, like, flip himself over. And I'm like, this is not fair. It's not fair that, like, everything I read in the books, like, it doesn't apply in this case. And it's such, like, a good microcosm of anything you think, you know, you don't actually know. I was thinking about what you guys said on the, like, coaching. You know, obviously, I coach my kids. Shout out to Pete Bailey, my neighbor. He told me same thing you just said early on, Shane, of like, if you can ever coach them in anything. And so I've coached them in baseball, I've coached them in football. I've coached them in basketball. The only thing, I don't coach them in soccer because I have no idea, you know, what I'm doing. I agree with you on the zero regrets. Even though having never played professionally or anything like that, it's still just, like, the best thing ever. It's the best thing ever to be their coach. I do think, though, Alex, one thing I've been thinking about is I think I am a better dad on the drive home from soccer games than I am from basketball games. And so I empathize with you guys a bit because for soccer, I sort of have, like, an appropriate level of humility and almost like indifference is the wrong word, but, like, distance, where it's just kind of like, all right, what do they want to talk about? They want to talk about the game. Great. I can talk to them about it. They don't. I don't bring it up. And Shane, I remember you telling me this sports psychologist, Bob Rotunda. Is that his name?

Bob Rotella, famous golf psychologist.

Yeah. And like, the. You. The, like, what's the right thing to say to a kid after a game? And, you know, you always like, what are you supposed to say? Good game. You say, did you have fun and then it's like, nothing at all, right? You told me that, like, you just let them. They'll talk if they want to talk. So on soccer, I think I was actually thinking about this. Like, I'm actually better because I don't bring it up. You know, they want to talk about it, we talk about it. And in basketball, you know, I feel like I, like, have something to offer, and so I kind of am ready to, like, tell them something. And I think that, like, I have to really hold it back, right? Because it's like, who cares? You know? And so the point is, I think that, like, I do the same behavior after basketball, but it's takes more work. It takes more work not to say something, you know what I'm saying? And I can feel it. And I can feel it, like the other day, you guys appreciate this, you know, Mark is homeschool, you know, so you talk about the difference in coach and dad for us, like, teacher and dad. And ugly does the primary stuff, but I do a fair amount. And the other day in math, like.

I was the math, or do you do the math?

I do the math. I do the math. You know? You know, I know you're ready to make an Indian Indian combat here, but, you know, it's funny. One of my kids, I was helping him with it, and I guess I was a little firm with him, you know, on certain things. He was making some silly mistakes or whatever. My kids are doing great. They're, like, really bright, and we're very lucky on that. But anyway, afterwards, I kind of, like, you know, told him. I was like, hey, man. Like, sorry, I was being a little tougher, but, like, you know, I just know, you know, how to do these things. And he. To his credit, he's 12. He was like. He kind of wasn't having it. And I was like, what's on your mind? He's like, I think you were too. I think you were too tough. I think that was not necessary. And I was kind of like, okay. You know, and he said that it was a great conversation. I was like, okay, like, what's on your mind? And he's like, it just wasn't that big of a deal. The stuff that I was, like, getting wrong and you were getting too worked up, you know, And I said. I was like, okay. Like, thank you. And I was like, I got it. I was like, you know, the thing I'm worried about is if I'm not helping you, what if you made those silly mistakes, like, in a different environment? And he was like, well, Dad, I wouldn't make those mistakes in a different environment because I would, like, check my work. Whereas with you, I was just like, well, showing it to you quickly. And I was like, you know what? That's a pretty good argument. And I was glad that he talked to me about it. And I said to him, I was like, you're right, my bad. I was like, I was kind of tired from the day, and I think that that made me a little short. And I also want you to be good at math. And so I think you're right. I was like, not cool. And he was like, oh, that's cool. You know, like, big hug. And it was just, like, done.

But it was like a good version.

Of the conversation, you know what I'm saying? Where, like, he was kind of annoyed. He told me, and I was thinking about it and I was like, man, like, there's so many bad moments, you know, but that was one of the good ones. And it came from me being kind of a dick. And so it was like a good lesson of, like, as long as they talk to you afterwards, it ends up being okay. It's not that you're not going to make the mistake, but, like, I made the mistake. But, you know, I'm glad he said.

Something about it that brings up that, you know, Ravi has three amazing young boys. You and I have daughters. And it like, I'm so thankful the Lord blessed me with a daughter. From the standpoint, like, it forced me to be a completely different dad than my dad was for me. You know, we talk about the modern day, like, like, father. The modern day father. The modern day, like, man, what it means to be like a, you know, a dad, you know, gender neutral, but. But a dad is you embrace vulnerability, empathy, and you have emotional intelligence. Now, like, my dad was many things. He was not vulnerable. He did not have a lot of empathy and sure shit, didn't show a lot of emotional intelligence. I think he did. And he showed it in a much different way than, I guess you'd say, text day. So talk about that. Talk about vulnerability, empathy, and emotional intelligence, especially with your daughter, because it is like, there's really no book for that for sure.

And like, obviously my experience is like, you know, n of 1. But my daughter's emotional intelligence compared to her brother's is like, it's not even close. She's so much smarter and more advanced and can, in, at a very young age could connect, I think can read my emotions so much better and sense what I would. Where I was at where's my boy? You know, boys. I honestly just oblivious, you know. And so that relationship from the get go, very different. Yeah. And again, I also in this too, Shane, I wonder so much about birth order, right? Like, for me, I have three. And again, I wonder about my oldest son. And I expect so much out of him. He's the oldest. He's so capable. But I still, like, you know, I constantly push on.

More is more, more is more and more.

And my baby girl, man, like, it's, you know, it's. She. It's the opposite, right? Like, it just. Especially your third go round, you know. Like, for me, it's so funny. I think about like bedtime over my, like the course of my three kids. And like my oldest, you know, we. We would bed early and we read like four books a night. And like, we were so diligent, like, it meant so much. And like. And then my middle guy, he kind of got piggybacked a little bit because my boy shared a room. So he was there, but we were like, less. And then my daughter, like, you just don't.

You nerd.

You're just like, she'll be fine, right? Like, she'll learn how to read. Like, we don't need to like, read five books a night, you know? And so it just is such a different experience for her. But then on top of obviously. Yeah. The gender difference as well, you know, for. For me now when she's eight again, she's a dancer and my wife danced, so it's such a role reversal in that regard. Like, my wife is the one that I think battles this with her, right? Like, that goes. They go practice together and she goes over her routines and like, there is this critique and then they butt heads and I can see them. Like, my daughter, man, she can. You want to talk about fearless, man? She, like, she'll. But she'll bark right back, you know, like, my boys, I can intimidate. Like my daughter, dude. Nope.

And.

And then again, for me as the dad, like, it's just pure support, right? Like, it's just pure support. I'm not demanding at all from that regard. And again, my wife, I think is just so flipped because with my. My oldest son, she gets on me about it.

Robbie, I'm. I'm in your boat. I didn't play soccer at all. And so when I go to my daughter's soccer games, I'm just like, honey, you. You played so hard and I'm so proud of you. She's like, shut up, dad. You know, I know you played in the NBA, but you don't know anything about soccer. I'm like, you're right, you're right.

I don't know anything.

You know, I know about being on a team. She's like, just shut up. And my lovely wife who did play soccer in high school has way more knowledge and she, you know, she, she has to bite her tongue as to what she says to, to my daughter. So I, so I struggle much more with like my daughter saying finding the right words than my son. That's what I just, I just kind of, kind of, kind of let go. Especially as girls get into the teenage years. It's just, it's just great. It's great. My wife and I have a, have a meme that we share. We say when we hear a, you know, the footsteps upstairs, it's such a treat to know what daughter is going to come down the stairs. Is it the five headed monster or our sweet princess? You know, so it's like a, it's like Christmas day every day and you just get, you get a surprise and that's the problem. I'm going to miss it. Like, look, all the stuff you deal with and all the emotions and you don't trade it for anything in the world because you know, one day it's over. It's over. And you just sit there looking at your, looking at your wife and you're like, man, I wish I just had my, my daughter come yell at me or my son or I wish I could go just tell my son, just like wash your hair, right?

Shane, two questions. One, what was your dad like, who coached you? Because my dad never coached me on a team. Like, you know, my dad used to be a football coach for everybody out there and then he became, got into higher education and became a principal and. But so like he definitely. There was the element that I would ask him a lot of questions about football, but he never directly coached me on the field. So how was that like with your dad? And then the second thing, what, what's this idea of saying nothing? You know, I like that, right? Like that just kind of takes the pressure off as a parent. Like, which way do you go? Well, you don't have to go anyway, right? Just let, let them. So is that something you practice and what's the idea behind.

My dad was the best, I mean, the greatest little league coach ever. I mean, I still get. Guys come up to me today and say, man, your dad was the best. And he passed away a few years ago. But like everyone loved Playing for my dad. And like, he didn't teach us, like, anything about, like, technique, like, not about, like throwing curveballs or anything like that, but he demanded that we hustled. He demanded that we tucked in our shirt, that we took, you know, infield sharp, that we ran on the field, ran off the field. He demanded that we always had chatter. We talked about this before, but it's like supporting your teammates. If a kid strikes out, like, man, you go and pet him on the back. You got it, man. And, and so, like, just overly positive. Like, I can't remember a negative thing my dad ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever said to me. Not once in terms of execution, performance, hustle, not once. And it was just an unbelievable skill as a dad now and as a coach, like, I. He was way better. So, like, even though he didn't have, like textbook emotional intelligence, he did. And in his own way, it was off the charts. And so, like, he wasn't a man of, like, a lot of words. And so like, I was the chatty one. And so like, he never had to say anything after the game because as soon as I got in the game, I'd be like, man, that ref was like. Or, man, that ump was horrible. Or like, man, can you believe that kid got a hit? Like, it was awesome. Or like, man, like, we played great. And, you know, I mean, I told the story. My dad was known for keeping my stats in youth basketball. And he always carried around a binder. He's very, very proud. Obviously never my basketball coach. And like, he would show me my stats after the game where he said I had like 30 points, 25 rebounds, and like 15 blocks. And there's no way I could have done that, like in a, you know, 32 minute game. But I thought that was legit. And he kept stats, and everyone wanted to see big head stats. They're like, there's no way they're accur. But I think that that's, that's what gave me the love of stats and numbers. And I, I understood them. But, like, my dad was not the Fred Rogers type. He didn't say, hey, you got to work hard, you know, he was like your dad. Or there was zero pressure, zero. Like zero. If anything, it was me asking him, hey, rebound for me. Hey, hit me ground balls. Hey, you know, let's go, let's go, let's go. And so I try to be my dad. I don't think I could ever be as good as my dad was for me, you know, and that's the highest compliment I can ever pay my dad.

Yeah, it's interesting to hear you guys, though, on the, like, maybe the absence of expectations on the sports side is consistent, for sure. But, like, the way we grew up, my parents were like, you know, have fun, work hard, be a good teammate, whatever, all that. Actually almost to the point where sometimes you're like, man, I wish you cared a little bit more. Right? Like, you know about it. And I think that I cannot imagine that's a unique feeling amongst, you know, Indian kids. I think, though, there were definitely academic expectations. Like, it was not. It was not, you know, oh, like, let's just see where this goes type.

Vibe when it came to verbal, like, directives.

Directives, Goals.

Goals or expectations. Hey, we expect all A's. We expect, like, what is wrong with this bee? Like, like, like, like, how. How was. How. How did you pick up on that?

I think the first thing I will tell you is, like, I think this is important because, like, you know, in the case that my dad listens to this, like, you know, my dad was. I always say he, like, give us. He helped give us ambition, but he also, like, made us laugh, you know, like, my dad, he's not, like, just like a hard ass. Like, he was for sure high expectation on the school side, but he was, like, really fun to, you know, and is. Thank God my dad, like, is alive and well and all these things. But on the, like, academic side, yeah, like, it was, you know, I would say that there was like, hey, look, like, you were blessed with a good brain. And that means that, like, yeah, we want high effort, but we think high effort is going to have high results. And so if you don't have all A's, like, wtf? Like, why not? Like, that means you weren't working. That means you weren't trying. Like. And yeah, I'm not overly focused on the result, but I know what the result should be if you try, right? And I think that was for sure. And then there was a lot of, like, look, like, if you want to get a good job, you gotta work hard. And that means that you need to achieve in school. And a lot of what they would say is sort of like, you can choose to do whatever you want to do, right? But you need to have the option to do anything. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you choose to go have a career that didn't require great academic performance, great, we don't care. But it can't be because you couldn't get it. You got to be able to have it and then you ought to be able to turn it down.

But brother, Brother Gupta, you've been very open about not optimizing your opportunity. So as successful as you are now, if you would, if, if you'd have seen 12, 13 year old Ravi Gupta, you would say, this is a different cat. So, like, talk, talk about that. Were you. Was it rebellion? Like, how did you. You knew there were, you know, a traditional Indian family, hear the expectations. Every time you see cousins and uncles, they expect you to be a doctor. You know, like you said. Right. That's the expectation. You weren't meeting the expectation. So, like, what's the conversation? You know, would your pop said, hey, let's come talk?

Oh, for sure. I mean, but, you know, look, I. When I was a kid, for sure, like, and I had, you guys know, my, my brother. I'll give you guys an example. When I was a kid, we didn't get much homework in my Catholic elementary school. We're, you know, technically Hindus, I guess, but like, we went to like a local Catholic school and there was not a lot of homework. So my dad was like, well, that's ridiculous. You should have schoolwork. And so every day after school, my brother and I would have to do an hour and a half of, like, bad homework. Okay. It would just be like, you, like you don't. That's not, that's not right. Like, you don't. You need to be like, learning, you know, and it would just be like a, you know, you. The math worker or whatever, something that he would. You or my mom would just give us. And my brother just sat down and did it. And I'd be like, why do I have to do this? Blah, blah, blah. And like, they were like, firm, like, you got to do it. So one time they caught me, I was reading some Sports Illustrated instead of, you know, I had put it in my notebook and I'm sitting in there reading a Sports Illustrated rather than, like, you know, doing the work. And, you know, I caught some hell. So there's stuff like that that was going on. But Shane, the real thing that would happen was like, I was basically like, if I get straight A's, they. They bother me, but they don't bother me as much. So I was basically like, okay, I gotta make sure I get the minimum viable grades so that they leave me alone about this stuff. The point that you made, they weren't as focused, professional, like being a doctor, but they were super focused on, like, you gotta perform academically. And I think the way that they did that was when I was being lazy. Was like, you know, they had different approaches. My dad would stories, and he'd be like, you're not going to like. I still remember this. He's like, you're not going to like working for someone who you don't think is smart. And if you keep going down this path, like, let me tell you something, that's what's going to happen. And you're not going to, like, okay, because you don't like people telling you what to do. And if someone's telling you what to do who you don't think is smart, you're not going to like that. My mom appealed much more. She had different approaches of just kind of like, you're kind of letting me down, you know, which also worked. But, yeah, like, the reason I bring it up is I think that I don't want people to hear that. Like, there's only one approach. Like, my thing when I hear this, like, I love my parents. I'm super close with them. But the thing I think about is, like, there are really different ways to, like, parent. And, you know, they. Different ways can work. I just started reading this book that you guys. I can't tell if it's the craziest shit I've ever heard or the most interesting thing I've ever heard. It's called the Sovereign Child. Okay, I read it. I started reading it. I saw it on Twitter the other day. You guys know Naval, right? He tweeted, this is the most important parenting book I have ever seen. And I was kind of like, I don't know if Naval is a good parent or not, but let me go buy it. So I bought it, and I'm like, halfway through. And so, you know, the basic premise.

Of this book is.

Basic premise of the book is you have to take children seriously. What does that mean? It's basically like, you should not have any rules for kids. You should not have any rules for how much they sleep. You should not have any rules for how much they eat or what they eat. You should have any rules about how much screen time they get. It's like, kids need the feedback loop of doing things and seeing how it goes rather than having your, like, you know, imposition on them. And so the example on, like, food, he's like. He's like, I have five kids. One of my kids eats ice cream every day for dinner. He's like. And he's done it for three months. Okay. And so he's like. He's like, I'm living it.

I'M doing it.

Like, I'm not.

Whatever.

I'm like, okay. And he's like, everyone asked the same thing. Like, what if, you know, what if your kid's unhealthy? He's like, well, then your kid needs to care themselves that they are unhealthy and ask you how they would deal with it. Right? You know, they didn't have any rules on sleep. There's no bedtime, there's no wake up time. If the kid misses school, the kid misses school. It's like, well, what happens if they're unhealthy? He's like, one kids will get enough sleep. They'll like go and make sure that they do. He's like, you never give them the chance to even know that they're not getting enough sleep.

Remember the Adam Sandler movie Big Daddy? So basically naval is Big Daddy.

It's basically that. It's basically that. And you know, the reason I bring that up is like, I don't know, guy like published a book, like, presumably he's doing it. That's a pretty different approach than anything I've ever heard. But I don't know, maybe it works, you know, so I'm like, the only.

Thing I push back on that is, you know, these engineers for smartphones and these companies, they're really good at hacking our dopamine systems. And so if we lived in a world where we relied on instinct and human nature sort of to survive and learn and grow and, and sort of grow from adversity. Yes. But I think we live in an artificial time now where there's too much bad that can happen to you due to our phones.

Honestly, that's the only place I'd really.

Push back on it.

I actually agree with that because I think that if you've read the Jonathan Haidt stuff of the anxious generation, things like that, basically I think the point you're making, which I agree with wholeheartedly, is like, actually screens are purposely addictive and that makes them like cigarettes or that makes them like alcohol and, or makes it like gambling. And you actually should be a certain age before you really should interact with those things because, you know, addiction is probably more. You're probably more susceptible to that as a child. And so I actually totally agree with that point on the screens. Even if you remove the screens point, it's still like pretty different than what I observe most of us doing on like food or, you know, sleeping or, you know, academic achievement or whatever. But yeah, phones notwithstanding, I think it's at least interesting.

I Think it falls in line. Like, obviously it's an extreme, I think, to give them that kind of, like, autonomy and just let them figure it out. I do get, though, listen, and I guess I would fall it in the bucket of what you're talking about, Shane. They need to be able to fail safely, right? And like, the phone and screens, I do think qualifies as, like, it is an addictive.

It's.

They can get in trouble. So, like, I would put it with the things you're talking about there, Ravi.

Like, right.

Like, you do have to protect, right? Against really harmful things. As a parent, I do understand it because there are so many parents that I call them the snowplow parents, right? Like, they're out in front of their kid, just clearing every hazard and thing that might be in their way. Piece of adversity, man. These kids, like, dependent. I get asked all the time, as I. As I'm sure you do, Shane. Like, parents that want. They're on a mission to get their kid to be a professional athlete, right? And how, like, they want my experience and my take and how did I become this? And it's so funny when I'm like.

I call them champagne dreams. A lot of champagne dreams in that AAU gym. I'm sitting in the summer for sure.

And I'm like. I'm like, I didn't play tackle football. That was 14, right? Like, I. I didn't specialize until college. Like, I. You know, like these guys, you know, you have these parents that, you know, have committed and are trying to obviously shape their kid from their, you know, early on when they're four, and they're, you know, personal trainers and coaches and, you know, and for me, again, you're. You're becoming your own worst enemy. So me and my wife talk about this a lot. Like, going back to this whole, like, sovereign child thing. Is that the name of it? The kid. Your kids need to be intrinsically motivated in whatever it is. Like. Like, you can't want it for them, right? Like, and this idea of they need to figure out what. They need to figure out that motivation, right? And so, like, you only sometimes need to struggle. And this idea. There's this poem called Good Timber. Have I told you guys about this?

No.

So it's this. It's this idea of, right, like, the biggest, strongest, tallest trees in the forest are the ones that have had to, like, struggle and fight for, like, light and. And. And nutrients, and they're the ones that actually, like, grow the strongest, right? It's not the one that has had. Sits out in the open and it's all the plenty of sunlight and rain and has great soil. Like, that's not actually the tree that is becomes king. And that your kids are kind of the same thing, right. Like, they need to obviously struggle. And to your point, I love the way you put a shame, like, fail safely. And so I don't know if I would let my kitty ice cream every single night. Right. Like, from that standpoint. But again, like, this is kind of what I talk to parents all about when they. Whenever they approach me about this subject. Like, you can't. Like, you can't want it for them, right? Like this, this idea, the kind of the Earl woods shape your kid into tiger thing that I think so many parents aspire to be. It's never gonna happen.

I actually took from it, you know, like you said, it's extreme. I took from it, though, that I like this language of, like, take children seriously, you know, like, they're not just like, little people that can't have opinions or, you know, informed thoughts. And I also like the idea of, like, let them make more mistakes. That you're not trying to shape little perfect humans. You're trying to help them see the world and, you know, broadly, like, fail in your house rather than fail in the. In the mean world. You know what I'm saying? So far, I have found it to be. I'm not going to do the full thing, but I definitely have thought about it, and it was interesting. I actually talked to the kids about it this morning. I was like, hey, what do you think about this? And I was interested if they'd be like, yeah, we should totally do that. My kids actually said they're like, we would like to do that for like a week or two. Right? But otherwise, we kind of like the way it is now. And so I thought that was interesting. Like, you know, they didn't just hear like, oh, yeah, I'd want to be like that all the time. You know, they were like, yeah, I'd want to try that. But I think that I'd come back to something that looks like, you know, this. Which I thought was cool.

That blends into. Were you guys. How were you guys disciplined? And did you discipline your children the same way you were disciplined? And by that I mean, were you spanked? The belt, did you get the wooden spoon? Did you get, like, tell me about that. I mean, it's even weird saying that now. It's even weird to say that now. It makes all of us cringe because we're like oh, they're going to get us bringing this up, you know. But like that was our childhood, was it not?

Alex, do you want to start with the discipline in San Diego, California?

I mean my parents both grew up on farms in Idaho. Like I mean it's just a different era in childhood, you know. I know I grew up in San Diego but like my, my family like where they came from. No, it's old school and, and they grew up absolutely like their, their parents discipline them, spank them like your point? Belts. And they would always talk about it. Now luckily, luckily enough I was the third born in my family. My older brother and sister's experience would have a very different answer to this than mine. It was always talked about Shane and always threatened and it was there, it was there. I, it never, it never got used on me. The one method I will say my dad like I was when I was young enough. I don't really remember this. I was. My parents constantly tell me I was an incredibly stubborn kid. Really stubborn, like very hard headed and if I wanted to like shut something down like in a public setting or I could, I could be very difficult apparently. And one time I, I had lost complete control. You know again I'm young, I think I'm only like three or four. And and again to my point my parents even told me they were like there were times when they wouldn't take me in public like you know, like that I was that difficult and I'm in the midst of this like just a total shit, right And I've lost it and I can't get control and and again these things are talked about but like my dad resorted, couldn't get my attention, right. And at that point turned on a cold shower and picked me up, picked me up on my shirt and holds me in the cold shower, right like and you know, finally, you know, kind of snaps me out of it a little bit and got my attention. But again it was a part of the culture of our family. It was talked about. My older siblings talked about it often. Wooden spoons, you know again spankings. I spent a lot of time in the corner as a kid. A lot of time in the corner. That was kind of the go to at that point. My parents I think were had evolved and so it certainly again my experience with my kid flash that forward I.

Guess.

I was much harder on our firstborn I think and same thing like I think learned by making some mistakes and being too hard on him and not talking to him and again going to Your point, Robbie? Like, not taking him seriously. Like, more of trying to make a connection, right? Like, these things I'm doing, I'm being so hard. Like, it's not. It's not serving the purpose that I want at all. And so, like, I gotta try to do something different. And so I personally don't feel like spanking or doing any of that stuff, like, helps achieve what I want, right? Like, you know, trying to teach these kids, teach my kids, and make a connection with whatever, you know, they were doing. And so again, that's like, obviously, I think I try to fall in line with what, like when we had Jaeger on, you know, and things that he teaches and talks about is like, I guess what I try to aspire to do, but obviously struggle.

Alex, you know, I never had to do this. But apparently the old Indian punishment in India, okay, when someone gets sent to the corner, right? They would get sent to the corner, but they would have to sit in a crouch position and put, like, in a catcher's position and put their hands underneath their knees and touch their ears and hold their ears like this. And they call it the. I think they call it like the chicken pose or something like that. And so it's like this deeply uncomfortable thing. And so if you go to, like, old school Indian people every once in a while, like, in like, a moment of, like, it's not on purpose. If they say they're sorry, they'll touch their ears because it's like, from this position where they used to have to go to the corner and put their hands underneath their legs and grab this.

Earth, which is amazing.

I was never spanked. I actually don't know if my parents, you know, were spanked or not or. I don't know if they were hit with a belt. I suspect not. This was definitely not a family where, like, you know, there was not stern voices and raised voices. Like, if they were pissed, like, you know, particularly my dad, like, you definitely, like, let us know. And, you know, a lot of. There was definitely. He was willing to be loud and tough with us if he was mad. And I say that there's still a healthy fear. Like, you know, I. When I was in high school, we had a playoff basketball game one time and we came back and we got back like, two in the morning. I don't know why, but, like, we got back super late and the coach was like, hey, look, it's been a long day. Like, we have a big practice tomorrow, and then we have our big, you know, playoff game the next day. Everyone Take first period off and, you know, come. Come into school a little late, whatever. And I remember, like, getting home and being like, hey, mom, like, I'm not gonna go to school tomorrow. At the beginning of the day, like, you know, I'll go a second period. Coach said we should, you know, miss. And she was like, you should call your dad. You know, my dad was traveling at the time. I was like, okay. So I called my dad, and he was like, yeah, you're definitely not doing that. Like, go to bed. You're going to school. You know, like. And I was like, but that coach said, whatever. And he was like, I don't care what your coach said. Like, he doesn't decide. He didn't decide when you go to school or not. Like, he was so, like, what the Right? And I'm pissed. You know, I'm like 15, and I'm like, all my friends are gonna miss school. I don't know why I just got. Was so mad. And I was like. I was always, like, respectful, whatever. And my dad was on the phone.

My mom.

I still remember where I was. I was like, on the phone, like a corded phone. And my mom's in the kitchen. She's looking at me, and I'm like, dad. But, like, it's just one period. Like, why are you making such a big deal? He's like, son, like, you go to school. Like, we're not. We're not missing school for basketball. Like, you go to school. And finally, I'm so pissed. And this is, like, one time ever, I yell, dad. It's one fucking period. And my mom, like. Like, like, you know, snaps to attention. It's, like, silent on the other line, and I'm like, oh. Like, I cannot believe I just, like, swore at my dad. So I am terrified. And I hang up the phone, right? I obviously go to school on time the next day. And it's been 28 years, and I still kind of worry that my dad's gonna, like, hit me or do something to punish me for the time that I swore him. Like, I still have the healthy, fewer 28 years later that, like, he's. Remember that time you.

You didn't bring it up. Like, it was nothing. Like, you've never talked about it.

He's never brought it up. He's never done anything. And I think he's saving it. I think at some point he's gonna do something, you know, like, you know, like empty our bank account or something as a. You know, as a mean thing. But my point to that is Like, I think even though there was no nothing there was, you know, I was. There was a. There was a healthy fear of my parents, you know, punishing us or whatever, even if it wasn't physical. What about you, Shane?

I was spanked. Only. Only a few times. Let me tell you. I never got in trouble in middle school. I never got in trouble in elementary school. Like once past, like, kindergarten. I never once, never once ever, ever, ever got in trouble. Never broke a curfew. I didn't have a curfew in high school. And I think it was because the one time. I'll never forget this as long as I live, I had imaginary friends. I think I do a 4, 3 or 4 or 5. And I threw a party for them. I took out every sock, underwear, shirt, pant in my drawer, dumped it out, took a whole big canister of baby powder and was do, like shaking up and sprayed it all over the room. And my dad wasn't even home. And look, we didn't have a lot of money. And so I knew, like, my mom was stressed, whatever. And I've never seen her that upset. And she gave me the spanking of a lifetime. Of a lifetime. Of a lifetime. I still remember crying and howling.

How old were you?

I was like 4. 4 or 5. Throwing an imaginary party for my friends. My imaginary friends. And I think that was the moment I.

Why were you throwing babies?

I don't know. I don't know. It was that I was celebrating. I dumped the whole thing on the floor. My mom did not find that amusing. And I didn't think anything of it. No. And I got. I gotta. I got my ass whooped. And my mom did not mess around, was it. And so my dad physically is much more scared. But my mom whooped my ass. And the only other time I got spanking. This is like, maybe before her time, but the old 19700-11807. Numbers that cost like a dollar a minute to call. So I'd call Santa. I called WWE and in my mind I'm like, there's no way that they're gonna know who's calling. Like, how. Like, how do they know I'm calling? There's no way. There's not. So I call, like, probably five, six, seven times a day. And to see WWE talk to Santa, hang up. Like, no big deal. And when that phone bill came, boy, my mom put me across her. Her lap and smacked. I mean, just beat me. My dad got the belt. Got the belt off. My mom was just spanking my dad got the belt. He'd like snap it. Snap, snap, snap, snap. And he would come and he would hit the bed. I don't think my dad ever hit me with it all. Yeah, but he hit. He hit that bed hard as. And you know, my brother and I would just be like, oh, my gosh. My dad, like, big black guy, he's scary when he got angry, but, like, that's the only time he really ever showed him emotion. So I was scared to ever, like, disappoint my parents, like, incur that wrath. It literally scared me straight. So I was not afraid to use the same correction for my kids. So I did spank my kids, right? And they were very well behaved. But every now and they get a little ruly. And I would. I would like. It wasn't like a. Like that didn't slap them. Like, I. I got. I got. I got spanked, but they got. They got a swat. And I think the emotional humiliation was way worse.

Yeah.

And not that I'm proud of that, but like I said, I had to lay the line. Like, this is not how you act. It's not how you act.

This is.

There are rules. There are rules and boundaries.

This is the thing where I'm telling you, like, people. There are all these people that tell you all these rules for what you can do and what you can't do with your kids. You can never have them feel shame. You can never do this. I'm like, I don't know. What are your kids like before you come and tell me all these rules, like, let me see how yours turned out. And I think the biggest thing I've learned as a parent is like, I don't judge other people's things anymore. You know what? Like, whatever works for you, that's fine, you know, because, like, dude, this shit is hard. You care a lot. They're difficult. They are all unique. They push your buttons in ways that nobody else can. Like, you know, like, I don't know. Like, I one time saw this lady, but I remember before we had kids, I was in the airport one time and some mom, you know, who's clearly just like at her wits end. Her son was doing something, he's being a. And I just saw her, like, kind of grab his. This backpack, like the little loop on top, and just like pull him down like, hard. This is before I had kids. And I remember being like, oh, my God, like, I can't believe it. And then after I was like, you know what, mama? I feel for you. You know, that kid was probably being a real dickhead, you know, like, whatever he was doing, he was bothering you so much. And so I, you know, no judgment.

And we're not. We're not advocating child abuse here. I think there is a, you know.

Yes, yes. No advocacy for. For child abuse on blue guys.

Shane. I can so relate on multiple things. My dad. The belt would come out and the bed and the snapping, but, like, it never actually got, like, imposed on me, but it was there. And it was like, it worked.

Scary just being.

It being out worked. And then same thing with my kids again, going back to my oldest. Like, I. Yeah, like, same thing. So I spotted. I've spotted him, you know, when he was little. And this is kind of what I was referring to later is like, the guilt you feel after is, like, way worse. Worse than probably they even remember it. But, like, one last. It's just funny. And it made me think it when you were talking about your mom.

Shane.

When I was in middle school and. Ravi, you've met my mom. Shane, you haven't. My mom is tiny. Like, my mom. My mom is like 5:3 on a good day and weighs 85 pounds and little. And when I was in middle school, I was in seventh or eighth grade. I was already, like, you know, taller than her. And again, being a total, you know, typical middle school boy. Like, I mouthed off one time. I'll never forget it. And kind of to your point, Ravi, like, she had pushed, you know, she was pushing back. And I thought, like, I'm, you know, I'm big now. And I mouthed off and I do think I cussed. I forget what I said. My mom hit me so quick with a little. A slap across the face.

Yeah.

Like, so fast. Yeah, right. Like, I get here, remember eighth grade, like, I thought I was cool.

You probably were shocked.

She hit me so fast. It was like, right. Like the moment the words had come out of my mouth, like, wow. And it wasn't hard.

Do that.

Yeah, it checked me.

Yeah. And it was like, I'll never forget it.

The point of all this, though, is like, you know, tell me if I'm wrong. As a dad, I am terrified that, like, I did not teach my kids right from wrong and then teach them enough to where they can be good humans, productive humans that help society when we can't help them anymore.

Right.

I mean, that's like. That's like the bottom line. That's like my biggest fear. That, like, oh, my gosh, I did not teach my kids enough. I did not set them up for the skill sets that they need. So maybe, maybe the ball is right. Maybe that's, that's, you know, that's the way to best equip them for this crazy ass world that we live in where they got to navigate. But it's like, that is talk about things that keep you up at night. That's what keeps me up at night. Just like, you know, I always joke my wife, like I'm skiing son Zeke is going to be eaten by wild bears because his, his, his head's always in a phone or up in the clouds, like, you know, being able to focus, I know he's going to do great. He's, he's a very, very smart kid. Gets straight A's, great basketball player. He's going to be fine in life, which my, my wife reminds me. But it's like, it's that fear of like, oh man, like I, I didn't teach my kids right, right from wrong enough. I didn't teach them all the things I know what they need to survive in this world. Am I wrong? Totally.

This is where like, yeah, I mean like I, I think that this is the point, you know, on the book and just in general we have to teach them agency and we have to teach them resilience, right? They gotta be responsible for their own lives, right? They have to realize that they're the captains of their ship. And also like, you know, the Steve Young thing, like they are not victims, right? And they gotta get back up, up when they get knocked down, right? And whatever you have to do along the way to do that, you know, like, you got to do it. And I think that to me, all these examples of like, you know what we take the best of what our parents gave us, we try to take that and then apply it and then we try to take the stuff we didn't like and change it. But like, yeah, if I could teach them two things, if I could leave them with two things from like time in our house, the agency and resilience. You know, like, that is what I would, that's what I would want the children to have. And the times where I'm worried are the times where I don't think I'm giving that to them or helping them with that.

This has actually been like group therapy. And again, this is kind of the modern dad. Like my dad didn't talk about being a dad to other dads other than complaining about probably my mom and how awful we were as little kids. But self care and mental health as a dad, like, that's, that's really, really important that we take time to talk about these things so that we're right, you know, and that is where I am. Am thankful for you guys. But it's. It's okay. It's okay to talk about these things that we struggle and we don't know how to discipline our kids, and we don't know, you know, what the right words are to say after a sports game, right? And. And I wonder if my, like, if my dad. If my dad had that, like, how different would I have been? I don't know.

But, dude, Shane, this is why it's so funny. People ask me, you know, why we do this, you know, like, what do you. What do you do? And I always tell them, like, you know, the same thing that we've all talked about, right? Like, have fun, make something we're proud of, and have some unexpected adventures together. And then I always tell them the same thing. I'm like, look, there is a hidden benefit, okay, which is that it forces us to be on Riverside once a week and actually just talk, right? Like, the hidden benefit is that you take some really good friends and it forces you to have a reason to talk to each other. And like, you and I, this came from COVID Zooms. Like, there, remember? Like, that. That's the origination of this. And I think that, like, if I can advocate to one thing for people, it's like, talk to your friends with some regularity and talk to them about real, right? Because you need it. Even if you don't think you do, you need it.

My dad's listening. He would be pissed if I didn't say this. Like, there was, like, a motto that my dad, like, ingrained in our heads. And my kids even know this now from their grandpa. Like, it is. It is two words, and they all know it in the Smith household is get tough, right? Like, those are my dad's, like, favorite words. And I think they kind of encapsulate because I think his biggest fear for us growing up when we got in the real world was, like, those things again, resiliency and agency. And like, for him, that toughness was that, right? Like that.

That's what I'm steal that I like that.

And, like, you could just complain, like, regardless, it was just get tough. But, oh, again, I. We didn't get to it. Ravi, do you. I want to know this personally. Do you give your kids dad homework how your dad gave you extra work?

Yeah, yeah, I guess.

Flipping it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, well, one thing, Alex, by the way, when the get tough. This is a cool symmetry because, like, you know, in that. In the ESPN thing about you, Project 11, Harbaugh has this quote about you that's just so. I'm sure you remember it. But, like, when he said it, I was like, that's such a good line. He's like, alex Smith is as tough as a $2 steak. And I just think that, like, what if it's like, such an awesome thing to have said about you, especially with him saying it. And I just like, I would imagine your dad hearing that and being like, yeah, he got tough. Like, so anyway, I thought that was cool. Alex Smith is as tough as a $2 steak. The dad homework, dude. Alex, like, you could make an argument. Michael Lewis would make the argument that, like, dude, we've taken it to the extreme. My kids fucking homeschool. Like, everything they do is dad or mom homework. And like, so, yeah, I mean, for sure. Yes, of course I give them dad homework now. It's done in a way that like, replaces school right now rather than like, addends to it. But yeah, for sure. Like, for sure. They are doing discretionary work based on me. And so, yeah, like, thanks, dad. You know, even though I hated it when I was a kid, I took it.

You know, what's the coolest thing you do with your. With your kids?

What's the cool.

Like, I'm proud of this.

This is.

This is a dad thing. When, when they. They came out into the world, you say, you know what? I'm gonna be a cool dad. We all think we're cool dads. What's the cool dad thing you do that your. Your kids would agree is cool?

The one that comes to mind? I guess. I don't know if this is cool, but I'm proud of it. Every Saturday morning, Me and the boys go out to breakfast every Saturday morning. And the idea for it was originally, we started it when Savin was born our youngest because Avni just kind of needed time to sleep after nursing him. And so I just get the older boys out of the house and I'd be like, oh, it's a boys trip. We're gonna go and we're gonna go to breakfast. And then solvent. Of course, when he got like, old enough to, like, beat, he was like.

I want to come.

I was like, great. So. And then they got a little time at home just like hanging. And so now every Saturday, just the boys, we go out for breakfast. And I've told them, I was like, this needs to continue even when you're like in college or, you know, whatever. Like, this is a tradition. This continues past. And so, you know, the Gupta boys going out for breakfast every Saturday is something I'm very. I'm very proud of. I don't know. It's cool, but it's definitely a thing.

Very cool.

And we rotate shoes. We rotate amongst the boys, who chooses the spot. So we have a couple of different places we go, and it just rotates through. I don't get a vote, but each of the boys gets, you know, to vote or gets to choose where we go.

I'm very proud for two things with both of my kids very different. And so my daughter's not in eighth grade, but if you. If you met Eloise, she is, like, super funny. I mean, unbelievable personality. And just, like, kind of like me just doesn't really care. And when we were in elementary school, her school had a daddy daughter dance. And, you know, I convinced her that we. Let's do something fun. Let's dress up and make it a theme. And so the first year we did it, we dressed up as dumb and dumber. Okay, I had my powder blue Tuxan. She was, like, in second grade. Okay, I'm in my powder blue tucks on, powder blue top hat. And I found her an orange dress, and she wore an orange top hat. And we walked in there, and all the dads out there like, oh, my gosh, you guys are unbelievable. So Eloise is like, okay, what are we doing next year, dad? So next year, the theme was solid gold. We were all glittered out in gold. Then the last year, it was like, hearts. You know, queen of hearts, king of hearts. And so my daughter now is. Will put on a costume, and it's like, just for a laugh. And I'm like, I am so proud that she inherited my ability not to give a crap about what people say and can just make people laugh and smile and very proud of that. And then with my son, we started a tradition where we try to see three football games. He loves football. Love sports. Obviously, it's three football games in one weekend. And so usually it's two college games in a pro game. And so when the NFL schedule comes out in August, you know, we're racing through, like, all the scenarios. Well, if we go to Georgia, we maybe see a Clemson game and then drive to Carolina, see the Panthers, or, you know, we fly into New Orleans, go see Tulane, drive to Baton Rouge, see the Saints on a Sunday, and, like, he's got a spreadsheet, and it's like he gets so excited for this. And a couple buddies come with their kids, and it's. We're just idiots on the bus. On the bus ride home. The greatest thing was we. And Robbie knows all my. And actually met all my fantasy football buddies who were very clever. Shout out, Go bar. So this year, we started playing all of our songs in the back of the bus, but we could only play female artists from the 90s. Okay, so all the day they're belting out Alanis Morissette and the Cranberries. And the best part is, like, our kids know the Cranberries, so they're singing Zombie in the back with us just being idiots. And, like, again, those are memories I will never, ever regret. And they're ridiculous and they're idiotic. But, like, my kids want to do this forever, and we'll do it for as long as they want to hang out with us. And so, you know, get something on the calendar. Get something on the calendar. Make it your thing.

Own it.

It's the greatest. It's the greatest.

Alex, you do one on one stuff with your kids. I think you told me.

We try to go do. Yeah, like, because there's three. And we do family trips, obviously a bunch, but try to stay split off with them and go do, like, singular things.

We've just started the one on one, like, whatever the kid wants to do, you know, things. And that's been awesome because the conversations I have with them when I just get one of them are amazing, you know, and different things that come up. And, like, I love it. I love it. I actually took it. I think you told me about it, you know, a few months ago, if I recall correctly, Alex. And so we've just, like, grab.

Well, especially your twins, I can imagine, right, who are constantly just totally.

And. And you know, you know, them, like, they're super different. Like, people, you know, easy for people to think they're the same because they look alike, you know, but they're super different personalities. All three of my kids actually, like, you know, are really different. Spending time one on one with them, you, like, you realize and, you know, like, kind of honor that. But, Shane, I think that the. I like, the. The thing that is cool about your thing with Eloise and Zeke is you can think about it all year, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not just the moment you get to, like, build up as well as the memory, you know, And I think that you end up with, like, a much more extended, you know, memory. Right. Than just the event itself. And that's awesome because you build up to it and then you remember it afterwards.

How do you guys feel like? Obviously we are all very busy, busy guys, busy dads, busy professionals. So, you know, the phrase work life balance gets thrown around. But, you know, I think the guilt, and I think guilt's the right word of trying to balance, trying to chase the professional ladders that we all chase while still being at home to be a dad. Because we know our time is limited. That's real. Right. And before, you know, before the show, we're talking about opportunities and like, things that we may or may not accept can turn down at the sacrifice of being a dad. I know for myself at least, I, I feel a guilt of like, am I wasting opportunity? Am I wasting talent? I've worked so hard to get to this point, but I don't want to mortgage my time with the kids. So how do you guys think about that? Like, I mean, who do you talk to? Like, is it such a weird, A weird thing? And that's the way I label it is just a guilt that you have.

I feel like I so connect. I have the same, the same reservations and it gives me anxiety and trying to like, find it. And you, you know, I think it is kind of a modern thing though. Like, I think back to like my childhood and my parents definitely, like on the weekends, you know, went to my stuff, but like during the week and like practices, like, I, A lot of times I found my own way there or like rode a bike and like they, like, they weren't like hovering at all. They had, they had jobs. Like, both my parents worked full time. Like, they, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, like there was a level of like I just had to figure it out. And I never had my dad at my practice, like watching, you know, like I'm, I go to, I go to some of my kids events now and like there's parents there every day, like at their stuff. Right? Like, they're very, like, it is. They're like Halo, you know, like, they're just like hanging around. And once I retired, I had a lot of time. Like, I, I mentioned this when I first retired, like, all of a sudden I would, like, I would drive my son and then I, I would, I watch practice. And I don't think that that's healthy at all. Right. Like, so I do think like, any extreme is no good. Like being around all the time. I'm not sure that's a great thing. Right? And like, same thing. Being away full time all the time. Obviously isn't either. And what that balance is, obviously, you know, who knows? And obviously trying, probably always working at it. But like I guess I just reflect on get them. I, I never thought my dad and parents weren't like, like were bad parents for not being, you know what I'm saying? They worked and that was just like the deal. And I still felt like I got a ton of interaction and so I, for me I, it's something that I guess I recall because like I've, I've gone to both extremes, I guess recent, you know, in the last several years, you know.

Shane, it's interesting. I definitely have like, I mean I have, I have the guilt. I also have the thoughts on it. I think a few things that I try to like keep in mind. One, you guys have heard me say this. I think that the idea of like it's all about quality time, not quantity of time with your kids is just wrong. I do not, I think that's like a cop out that people use to cope with the guilt and I've used it. But I think that basically you have no idea when quality time is going to come with your kids. It's not like you can predict when you get that. And so you kind of, in my opinion, need like as many shots on goal as possible. Even if you can plan for like the perfect vacation with them, that you think you're going to have all these special moments, like maybe they're in a shitty mood, maybe there's something that went on. You can't predict that that'll be the quality time. And so I do try to get some amount of quantity in there. And that's more than just like whatever, like more than a maximum job would allow at any moment. Right? But I guess the second thing I do think is like, you know, sometimes it, I hate like if one of the kids, like sometimes the kids will be up early in the morning and I'm like about to go to work. I'm like, hey dad, can you play Monopoly? EMP me? And it just kills me when I have to say no. Like, no, I have a meeting, right? Or something like that. Because like of course you want to play like and when, how long are they going to ask you for? And then the only way I make myself feel better on it is like they gotta miss you a little bit, you know, like if you're there all the time, no matter what, they just won't take it for granted. Of course, right. And so I, I try to make myself feel better sometimes when I miss It. By being like, it's good for them to miss you a little bit, you know, And. But finding that balance, like, dude, it's hard. It's super hard. I think about it a lot. I try to. So maybe tactically, what I try to do is, like, I have a demanding job, but I try to limit my travel more than I otherwise would. And I also try to have an extremely high bar for work dinners. You know, like, mine is a job where you could have a lot of work dinners and you also could have a lot of travel. And I try pretty hard to have a really good reason to be. You know what I'm saying? Like, away in the evenings or away overall?

To your point, Shane and I, this is probably the. The crux of it. Like. Like, you just don't want to be either extreme. Right? Like, and. And again, it probably constantly, like, schedules pick up and there's times you're away a little more. Like, I certainly. In football season, I'm away a little more as I, like, go back to Connecticut. And it's hard. Like, especially on weekends, I miss, you know, weekend time is so valuable.

But wasn't it easier, though? But when you were an athlete, like, you know, you tell your kids, I'm sorry, like, this is the schedule, man.

I gotta.

I gotta go. And when you were there, you were, like, fully present. And, you know, that's why I give, you know, have empathy for Robbie. Like, the optionality of, can I go on this lunch dinner date or do I take my kid to the park? The optionality is the hard part when it's laid out for you. Right.

Could not agree more. When I played, I. This is not even something. When I was home, I was home. And when I worked, I worked and I didn't even think about it. You're totally right. Like, now that I do have some say in my scheduling, it's something that. It weighs on me way more. Yes.

Dude, it's not just your kids. I'm sure you guys have it with your wives too, right? I'm like, well, hey, why do you have to do that? Like, Shane, you're in Philadelphia right now, you know, like, you know, I would imagine that that question comes up, you know, not just from the kids.

Yeah, well, talking about missing people, my. I think my kids notice I'm going more than my wife does, so that's okay. I love you, honey. That's good. But again, that's for a different time. Like NBA, an NBA wife, they get used to their husband is going for like 24 hours. Coming back, you know, going away for three days coming back, the reunion. The reunions are fantastic. So, you know, that's. That's kind of our flow. So, you know, I feel much worse about coming to Philadelphia for a day for the kids than I do my wife.

You know, the real thing about this is there's two implications. One, we can do an episode on husbandhood one time. But also, you know, the thing about it is, like, I think that the real answer, Shane, is like, we just got to remember to be grateful that our kids miss us right now. How bad is it going to be if they were kind of like, well, we don't care that you're gone. We don't. Yeah, sure, Dad's gone. Like, I talked to a really successful business person one time, and he would. He would tell. He told. He's retired. He told me. He was like, dude, he's like, when I would leave the house on, like, the Monday after Memorial Day, he's like, my kids would be like, okay, we'll see you at Thanksgiving, Dad. And I was like, whoa. Like, that is not balanced. And he was lamenting and regretting it and all that stuff. So I think that, like. Like, and then he was later being like, yeah, like, my kids are grown. Like, they. They got their own lives, you know, whatever. So to me, a lot of it's also just like, yeah, making sure that we're grateful that they miss us, but making sure that they still miss you and they don't just accept. You know, you want the tension. You want them to ask you, why do you have to go? You know, because if they don't, that ain't great.

One of my favorite memories from our football trip this year, we played the cats and the Cat in the Cradle, you know, on repeat, and all the dads are crying, and all the sons are. Are like, why are you crying? You know, we're just like, just don't grow up like me. You know, it was an unbelievable moment, but a lot of respects. I hope if my son, you know, grows up to be like me and my daughter grows up to be like me, I'll be okay with that.

Yeah, exactly. All right, that's. That's a good place to wrap. Hopefully the bad news grow up like their parents. Good outcome for the world. Thanks for tuning in to Glue Guys.

We're on social media at Glue Guys Underscore Podcast, and we'll be back next week.