Fidji Simo: Meta, Instacart, & OpenAI journey [Glue Guys Classic]

We're going to do something we haven't done before. This week, we're going to actually reissue an episode. It's the one with my very good friend, Fiji Simo. It's actually one of our favorite episodes. I think we learned so much from Fiji. She is this quintessentially what Charlie Munger said when he said that, you know, you should work with people you like, respect and admire. I mean, that is Fiji to me. She is one of my closest friends and also someone I deeply, deeply, deeply respect. And so I think there's, you know, eternal life and business lessons in this episode. And, you know, so do Shane and Alex.

And I think the other thing is.

You know, unless you've been living under a rock for the last, you know, six months, you've probably noticed that AI is everywhere. And Fiji, you know, recently was named the incoming CEO of OpenAI Applications, which means that she's going to have a central role to play in how AI impacts all of us. And I think that, you know, re listening to this episode in that context will give you a sense of some of the values and some of the things that will go into some of the decisions that she and the company make. And as we've re listened to it, we just found it to be fascinating and we want other folks to do that too. So happy listening.

I've heard people describe you as Fiji grew up in the south of France, which I think would be literally true, but maybe misleading in terms of the implications of that when most people in America think about the south of France. So tell us about where you grew up and tell us about, you know, all that.

Yeah, that wasn't a yacht in central. I grew up in Set, which is a very small town in the south of France. It's really a fishing where a bunch of Italian immigrants came in and basically the entire city revolves around the fishing industry. And so all the men in my family going back many generations, and like my grandpa, my dad, all of my uncles were fishermen. My grandma was a fishmonger. I mean, we. We joke that we come out of the universe with scales. You know, it was interesting because, like, high work couldn't be more different from what I do right now. But it really taught me, like, the core values that may be where I am today. You know, like, I saw my dad every day waking up at AM, coming back at 8pm like, really? That taught me the value of hard work. I saw a bunch of my brothers, my grandpa, my dad, my uncles, start as like at the bottom of the Ladder as crew members, and then work their way up to becoming captain. So that told me so much about, like, having the ambition to, like, become your own boss and become an entrepreneur. And really, like, how do you lead a crew at sea? You know, like. Like, having, like, the back of your crew is everything. It's like a matter of life and death. And so, you know, my upbringing didn't have, like, the traditional witches, but I would say that, like, much deeper riches that I carry with me today.

That's an amazing story. And, you know, like, my family did not have a long history of going to college, and I'm always, you know, fascinated. And I love to hear the stories of, like, what inspires people to go beyond when. Especially when it's not apparent in your own household every single day. So, like, what inspired you as a young lady to say, you know what? There's more to life than shopping these Mediterranean sea bass and, you know, there's a whole world out there. Like, when did you first understand, like, man, there's a whole world out there, and I want to go get it?

Interestingly, my family always made me feel like, if you work hard, everything's possible. Like, my grandpa started working on boats when he was five years old. He was in Tunisia, then moved to France. And he really instilled in me this idea that I shouldn't be limited by my current circumstances. And if I worked hard, I could do anything. But the thing that's hard is that you can't be what you can see. So I couldn't even imagine which kinds of jobs were out there. And I remember I went to see this, like, high school counselor was supposed to tell you, like, about jobs. And I told him, like, I don't know what I want to do, but I want to be this, like, independent woman. I want to do something in business. And he told me, oh, I think there's open jobs at city hall. You know, the end of the admission of, like, my high school, and the thing that actually tips things over is I was watching a lot of tv and there was this documentary. I was nine. There was this documentary on TV about my, like, what was going to become my business call. It's number one business school in France called HCC Paris. And I was seeing all of these, like, young adults looking very, like, determined and important and doing important things. And at night, you don't really understand, you know, what that means. But I remember, like, my mom and I were watching, and I was like, I want to go there. I want to do that. And I Mean, to this day. That's why I have actually so much respect for the entertainment industry, and I ended up working in it while at Facebook because I think for kids like me, it was everything to, like, have access to, like, you know, things that I wouldn't have otherwise understood. Even moving to the U.S. that was, like, just completely outside of what people did in my hometown. To give you a sense that this joke in my hometown where if you go to the next town over, people say you need a passport. So, like, people who grow up in my hometown tend to stay in my hometown. And so, like, the idea of moving to us was, like, totally crazy. But because I was, like, watching a bunch of American TV show, I was like, that's the American dream. I wonder for myself too. And so then worked, you know, very, very hard, had a lot of people in my journey, so supported me, like, teachers who, like, realize I didn't have, you know, all of the tutors and all the resources for the kids who, like, actually really helped me get to, you know, my goals. So, like, yeah, I. I love entertainment for that reason.

Did you tell people you. Your dreams? We find especially people who dream really audacious things. So often you sort of keep it to yourself, like. Like, who do you tell your dream of? I'm gonna go to America or I'm gonna. I'm gonna be in entertainment and I'm going to change the world. Who do you tell growing up when no one else really get it?

I was incredibly lucky that I met my husband on the first day of high school. We've been together since I was 13. And honestly, I don't think I would have had the courage to leave my home country, go do these kinds of studies if we weren't both of us on the same journey. And you supported me more than anything that I could have imagined. And so, like, having someone by your side who tells you, yes, you're special, you can do it, and I'm going to be there to support you. You don't need an army. You just need one person who's going to really believe in you and help you get there.

Just as an interjection, I know, Alex, you have a question. But Remy is about as cool as it gets. Okay. I really genuinely, like, he's so fun. He's so just, like, so cool. Like, when you talk to him, like, he's always got something interesting to say. He's a pastry chef in the backgr, and also just generally has. And he's a huge NBA fan, actually. But he also just he really thinks Fiji is pretty awesome. It's like a pretty cool relationship to be a witness to.

But to your point on him being an NBA fan, I've done a lot of podcasts and by far the one is he's like, are you ready? Are you ready?

Where do you think the confidence came from at such a young age? Like, we talk about agency all the time and like in our kids, like hoping to be able to develop that. And it just seems like you had this confidence from the get go that like this dream, right, that was so outside your universe, but you could go chase it and attain it. And it's one thing, I think people, a lot of people have dreams, but then to have the confidence to go, no, I'm going to go make this happen. Like, where do you think that that comes from?

I think it was a mix of truly believing in hard work because I, I did see that it helped my family and also, to be honest, really not wanting to have a life where I would stay and be a fishmonger, you know. And so I think it's a mix of both, of telling myself, like, there is a whole world out there that I could go explore, but it's on me, like it's ultimately on me to do all the work to, to get there. And I had this very strong, like, because my family didn't graduate from high school, my mom actually, after I was born, went back and got her high school diploma. And I thought that was so cool. And it was a super interesting thing that it did for me to realize, oh, she's like, you know, like she has a kid and everything and it really stuck with her that she didn't get a high school diploma to the point that she went back and got it. And, and as a result I had a lot of, I would say, appreciation for education. And I was like, this is something really special where if you miss it the first time around, like the redo is pretty hard and I need to make sure I get the most of it because this is a gift to have education. So let me get the most out of it so that I can have like the best chance. But it wasn't, you know, it wasn't a straight line. Like, I'll give you a funny story, I, when I finally make it to HCC Paris, which is this like incredibly, you know, like prestigious school in Paris, I arrive and it's a lot of people who didn't grow up the way I grew up, let's just say. And we have like a large, the first week. And everybody's talking about, what does your dad do? And everybody's answering, and it's like, oh, he's a minister, is blah, blah, blah, like the CEO, etc. He gets to me, and I'm like, he's a fisherman. And so I'm like, no, no, we weren't asking about his hobbies. I was like, no, turns out it's a job.

Like, oh.

And then I still managed to find my crew, you know, but. But it was a very, very different world. But at the same time, it was also funny because everyone at HEC was like, you know, fighting to get internships. And I ended up finding, like, everybody was asking their dads, and I asked my dad, and I ended up having an internship at the lobby for the fishing industry for two months. Me in my high heels with my face full of makeup, going from fishing town to fishing town, like, rough fisherman. I was like, like, literally, you can take fish out of the water. I was just like, w. And then the next summer was another internship. Everybody was coming back from their internship at Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs and all of that. And I was like, I. I went to the lobby of the fishing industries. This was. And then the next summer, everybody was kind of doing the same thing. We're gonna ask the dad. And meanwhile, I was refreshing like a mad woman the internal site from the school where, like, internship were posted. But no one else was doing that because everybody was, like, busy trying network. And it turns out there was an internship at ebay that appeared, and within a second, I had applied. That was the first resume. And that's how I got the job. And at the time, tech was really taking off, and everybody was like, how did you get this incredible internship? And I was like, I refresh the page of the website. And so, you know, it also shows sometimes, like, you have an advantage because you already know that given your background, you have to go the extra mile. You already know it's not going to land on your laps. And because you know that you do the extra thing that's going to end up differentiating you from the rest.

You've always been a titan of technology.

Always.

All right. From refresh. I mean, that's amazing.

One thing that is kind of interesting is this came up on the Morgan household episode that we had about just this tension of having humility to be like, okay, I don't know what I'm doing, but the confidence to be like, I'll figure it out. I was thinking about that when you talked about the family, right? Because it's this extreme respect for the profession and this extreme respect for the hard work that goes into it. But then also the knowledge of that's not what I want, that's not the thing that I want to do. And I think that one of the things that comes up a lot is people holding these things in tension, you know, and for you, same thing of like not having the, you know, a parent who could get you an internship, it's like, you know, that's harder. But then all of a sudden it creates the opportunity of like, if you did, would you ever have end up in tech? Like, no way. Right. Because you just end up in the thing that your family takes you to. So it ends up that we have these things in tension that are pretty cool.

Yeah, I totally agree. And, and I think, you know, it's really interesting because I definitely didn't want to end up in the industry for the aside joke. I am dreadfully seasick, which is not a good feature. But so I know from a young age, oh, that's not going to be great. But at the same time, to your point on the respect for the profession, there were a lot of things that this taught me. Like, a good example is my grandfather was a very, very good fisherman. He knew exactly where to find fish. And then there was this technology that was introduced called the radar technology, where you can figure out electronically, well, so fish it are. And initially you would have imagined him like recording at that because I was removing his competitive advantage. But instead, the story always told me was like, I became obsessed with the machine and I stayed with the technician and I told him, teach me everything there is to know about the machine. Because my identity is I'm the best fisherman in the Mediterranean Sea. And therefore, if the game has changed, I am going to upskill myself like asap to figure it out. And I always thought that that was so cool because it's such a different industry, but it applies to what we do in tech all the time, which is like, the game is always changing. You always need to adapt. You always need to embrace technology instead of fear it and figure out how to turn it to your advantage. So there was actually so many lessons from my family that I could apply in life if you just take a different lens and look at the kind of leadership lessons I love.

That's what you just brought up there at the end with the leadership. Because I can't help but get out of my head, listen, a captain, a boat captain, there's not a more iconic leadership role, I think, in the world than a captain. And you mentioned it like, the ocean is a dangerous place and your decisions have consequences, real life and death consequences for your crew. And this is a label that, like, for Shane and I, one of the greatest honors of leadership in sports is to be named a captain. Right. And it comes directly from this. And I. Your reading up on you is fascinating because by all means, you are this incredible leader and always have been. And it seems strange that you came from this small little fishing village, but when you think about it, you have had these amazing up close, like, seat to true leadership your entire life, from your dad to your grandpa and even your mom owning her own shop. And like, I just can't help but think that, like, you've just been so exposed to phenomenal leadership. So up close.

Yeah, I mean, it's so true. I remember vividly looking at how my grandpa was leading his crew and it was an interesting mix of him telling me, like, the crew comes before you always, like, you know, you're gonna be the last man standing, you're gonna save your crew first. And yet at the same time, it's like you need to install enough respect and authority that they listen to you. Because when it's, you know, when you're in a dangerous situation, everybody looks to you and you have to make the decisions. And it was always like just so striking how he managed to find that balance and the respect that I saw people have for him, for my dad, like, it was, it was really transformative. I also had this experience where my grandpa, like all the show and had a radio to communicate between each other that. And then when my grandpa retired, he kept radio inside his house. And so that was fascinating because I grew up with the sounds of fishermen talking to each other. Lots of swear words.

But.

And so I learned a lot from hearing captains talk to each other. And then very tragically, I also heard a boat sink. And what that sounds like in real time where you have like, you know, like the captain saying, like, were going in like, we hope the rescue team arrives on time. My dad lost one of his friends in the process. It was horrific, but he made it. Like I was, I was a kid and I still remember realizing the stakes in this job are incredibly high. And my dad also had many scales was about to starting to sink. And so every time we would hear the siren in the town, like, all of us would be like, just terrified about what would happen to them. And that made me feel that from a very young age that I could only like, the only thing that I'll get my fears was like, their leadership skills in a moment of crisis and believing that they would manage to figure it out. It was also really interesting to see, like, how all of them work together because in the fishing industry, you actually have a lot of competition in normal times, like to find the best fish, etc. But when there's an emergency, like the community and the solidarity is beyond, like, you know, like when my dad was sinking, all the boats were, like, rushing to him to try to, like, get him out of trouble. And so it actually, to your point, has plenty of lessons of leadership and that I've been able to apply, I think, much more than if I had grown up in business.

I think I've mentioned this before, but not. I didn't give you the name. One of the biggest traits I looked at at when people are great leaders is how quickly they go from, like, the setback to what am I going to do about it? And Fiji is truly crazy on this dimension where most of the problems that she'll have, she doesn't really even talk about, they just, like, come and go and get solved. Right. You know, by her. But, you know, maybe a year or something ago, year or two ago, Fiji called me and said, hey, look, you know, there's something going on. And she shared a problem. And, you know, I was like, oh, wow. And it was, you know, real problem. And within 90 seconds, I think we had moved from like, oh, but, but what if I did this? And guys, I really. I don't even think I'd even spoken. I think I was still processing the problem. And within, literally within a minute or two, Fiji had gone to, like, ideas on how to solve it and kind of going from like, being kind of down about this surprise problem to just like, what am I going to do about it? And then literally leaving the call with sort of like, okay, like, you know, I'll figure it out. And I think some of the things you just mentioned about, like, the speed that the leaders you observed growing up went from like, there is a problem. What are we going to do about it? I think that shows up in you so much, Fiji, and it's something that I admire a lot and I use as like a reference point for other people of like, how quickly do you go from bad news to what am I going to do about it? You know, And I think you are very unique in that regard.

Well, thanks for.

You remember the phone call I'm talking about, Right?

Oh, I forgot. I think it's also. So I really believe that if you Believe in your own inner power. You can actually solve a lot of situations. And so the thing I always do when something hits is like, okay, like, I can control that thought, but I can control how I react to it. And, like, starting to move to solutions is really important. Like, you know, we Talked about my 10 years at Facebook, but it started with, like, Facebook rejecting me. They were like, oh, we don't need a strategy person. We have. Mark Zuckerberg straight up rejected me. I applied again to a marketing position that I was completely unqualified for, and I knew that they were going to reject me again. So I spent my entire Thanksgiving weekend building a new product, inventing a new product, and doing all the marketing materials, webinars, etcetera, for it and sending that to the recruiter. And that's what got me into the door again. Talk about going the extra mile. Because they were like, okay, she has no experience in marketing. She produced marketing materials. She has a lot of grades that she's like, she's not gonna stop knocking at Central at 4.1. I don't take no for an answer. And I think so many people fail just because they abandoned, like, the problem just a little too early. And if you actually are one of these people were like, no, I'm just gonna bang my head on that wall a little longer. I mean, you can actually crack a lot of things that others haven't cracked.

I don't think I've ever asked you this. Why did you apply to Facebook? What was it about it that made it the company you wanted to apply to and bang your head against the wall for before you even got there?

I love technology, but I love technology that solved real human problems. And that's actually why I started at ebay, because at the time, it was really a community of people who passionate about things that were exchanging collectibles, basically. And then I spent about three years there, and then Facebook was taking off. And again, I love technology at the service of human connections. And so I was seeing this company really take off, but more importantly, be all about connecting people. And I was, like, very early in my career, I was very far away from my entire family, and we were communicating entirely on messenger. Like, you know, like, that's how I could have flow with my grandma. Because there's a time difference. It was very hard to call out every day, but, like, chat was, you know, very helpful. And so I realized, wow, this is solving a very common human need for connection, and I want to be a part of it.

You mentioned the rejection from Facebook Initially. And I think it's. I'm so. It's so funny because I think people from the outside look at your story and they see all the successes, right? And I think this happens with everybody, and they just say, oh, my God, it's like this meteoric rise, right? And it just must have been so easy. She some. You know, there's just something innate about her, and it's this. It's like this unattainable thing. And then you get down to it, and it's like, no, you got rejected by the very company you went on to lead the Facebook app for, you know, how many years, and they rejected you initially. There's a level of stubbornness, if I would even call it that. Right. Like, that just. Has that always been in there, you know, from. From their childhood, from a young age? And I think. Have there been other moments in your career where it's paid off?

We should have Remy and Willow answer this. We should bring them in and have them answer.

Yeah, I mean, there's been so many. I always say you have to be very stubborn on the destination, but very flexible in the journey to get there. And, you know, like, at Facebook, like, all of the turning points in my career at Facebook were things, projects that were incredibly hard and ended up working out just because I kept banging my wall. Like, you know, I was put in charge of monetizing mobile at the time where, like, no one thought Facebook monetized mobile. It was all the headlines. The Stock was down 50% because of it. So, you know, mildly, like, stress inducing when you're in charge of figuring that out. But we kept going with the team and, you know, figured out how to do that. Then I was put in charge of video. And similarly, I had a deep conviction that there was no way a social network could exist in this day and age and not be primarily, like, visual and immersive. But everyone else was like, you know, YouTube has been around for eight years. Like, you know, don't even touch things. This is like a failing project. Like. And I was like, no, we have to track it. We don't have an option not to track it. So I am going to go and I'm going to figure it out. And so every single time, it was kind of a new flexion point. And I always say, like, you can't have really great careers if you don't take these kinds of risks, because no one gets rewarded for just being a passenger on the rocket ship. Like, people get rewarded for actually changing the trajectory of what they take on and so when I see something that's actually not going right, I'm like, great, let me run towards it because that's an opportunity to change it. If everything's going right, I'm just going to like write it. Like that's, you know, there's no pride in that. So that's, that's kind of like how I ended up accelerating my career.

Who are your role models? Coming, coming up, coming through. Especially as a woman in tech. All right, you know, there weren't a lot of women in tech, you know, in the, in the early 2000s and even the teens, you know, who would you look up to and try to emulate or steal from their journey?

Working for Mark Zuckerberg was transformative because the thing he does incredibly well is that he has this like 10 to 100 year vision, but then also obsesses over execution of today because if you don't execute perfectly today, you're never going to get to your 10 year vision. And seeing someone in action like that and someone who also took a lot of bets on me and gave me a lot of permissions to actually think that big was absolutely amazing for my career because I think if I had worked for traditional leaders, I don't know if I would have given myself as many permission, especially as a woman, you know, when you arrive with a grand vision for like, you know, and, and I think Mark encouraged that. Instead he was like, okay, like, what's the bigger thing? What's the bigger thing? And I think that carries with me to this day. So that was a really transformative thing. And then I have to give credit to Sheryl Sandberg, where at the time, like when she launched Linen, it was really taboo to talk about gender in the workplace and she made it okay to even have the conversation. And so I think that was also critical. But you know, it's interesting because a lot of people obviously ask me about gender and tech and like, the thing that I struggle with is that because sometimes we put so much of a spotlight on the challenges of being a woman in tech or minority, I worry that it's almost having the opposite effect where it's scaring people off from even entering the field. And like, the thing I always say is that, you know, what you put your attention on grows. So if you put your attention on the obstacles that are going to grow, if you put your attention onto destination, you're more likely to get there. And it's not that I didn't have plenty of obstacles, not just from being a woman, actually, that One wasn't even the biggest one, but from my upbringing and all of these things. But I kind of ignored them because there was very little I could do about these obstacles. Whereas I focused and put all of my energy and attention on the things I could actually have an impact on. And it turns out when you do that, you. The obstacles stop getting out of the way.

Fiji. What was it about the Facebook processes or culture that allowed Mark to even find you? I mean, because if you think about it, right, you started, you know, you were very junior, right? And even then, it was big enough where it shouldn't. It doesn't seem obvious that he would know who you were and give you the chance to have some of those transformative impacts, like, how did you break through the noise to even be observed as a possible person who could do this stuff?

So, first off, like, the thing I learned about Mark is that he was really into details. So he was doing product reviews with a lot of people that were actually fairly junior and presenting that area to him. And that's really important because as a result, he got to discover a lot of talent, but he also got to understand a lot of things that only people close to the ground would understand. Whereas if he had done just to his senior leaders, I don't think that would have happened. So we got a lot of exposure to him, actually, at fairly TR levels, which really helped. And then there were people along the way that helped a lot. I. My manager, Will Cathcart, I worked for him for a long time at Meta, did everything he could to give me the exposure I wanted. And he really, like, he hates when I say, like, he's a mentor and a sponsor because he does it. So naturally he's like, I know I don't even want to be called that, but is someone really made sure that I could, like, accelerate my career and that every opportunity that would open up, like, someone would think of me for that. And I think that's really important. And that's why also, I differentiate between mentor and sponsor, because mentors are like people who are going to give you great advice about a cup of coffee. Sponsors are the people who are going to be in a room that you're not in pounding the table for you to have an opportunity. And I think that's what a lot of people are missing at this junior levels. And that's what I try to, you know, continue to do in my job in lifting people up.

I love this. And you remind me so much of the question I get so often. You know, you obviously Came up working on, you know, under Titans of. Of tech. All right, Sheryl Sandberg and. And Mark Zuckerberg. All right, so people always ask me, like, what's it like to play with LeBron James? And what's it like to play with Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and ran all these. All these, like, hall of Famers. And I think most people think that I spent my entire time just, like, fawning over how great they were and like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I'm playing with LeBron. You know, like. And that wasn't the case at all. It was like, no, winning is. Winning is hard. And we're all in this, you know, pardon the pun. We're all in the same boat just trying to. Just trying to get across the finish line here. There's. There's no time for fawning. So. So talk about, like, your experience of playing with Titans and not, you know, not going to work, being in awe every single day and actually trying to. To do the deed, and you just happen to have really, like, famous and talented teammates.

So there's this thing that was special at Facebook, and I think it's very probably similar to your experience that we really felt like we were a group of people that was empowered to do something really amazing. So we kind of all grew up together, and we were all the same age. So even though Mark was obviously a legend, like, mostly, like, the feeling we had towards him is like, this is a guy who see amazing vision, and we just want to help him achieve that. And, like, let's go. And. And I think that that made it so that we were really working problems together instead of, you know, falling over work. And so. So that helped a lot. I. I also. It's interesting because, you know, obviously there's so much written about. About Zach, but people don't realize, like, there's something people really don't know about and which is, like, he's actually very relatable. There's been this image of him in the past as more of a robot. And honestly, he's the most funny guy I know. So relatable, so compassionate, so loyal. And I ended up having some pretty serious health issues while I was at Facebook, and support I got from him was unparalleled. And that's a side of him that I think press doesn't report on, doesn't see. But all of us that work with him closely, like, we really saw that. And the reason we had so much loyalty for him, the reason why I stayed A decade. The reason why most execs there have stayed for more than a decade is because he's also loyal to his team. Like, he really goes both ways. And I think that's what allowed us to do amazing things together.

Fiji. I got traded twice, so like eight years in San Francisco. Then I got traded to Kansas City and I did five years there and I got traded again. And so this whole kind of like first day in school kind of feeling, right, it's a brand new building. You spent a decade at Facebook and here you take this leap to Instacart. Like what were your. You're coming in again. We just talked about it. You know, it's this like stardom. But what were your objectives? I think coming in? I mean, we talk a lot about trust and it's obviously vital for a leader to gain that. I mean, stepping into this thing that had been built obviously as an outsider, I mean, how was that experience for you? What were the things you wanted to accomplish first?

So, you know, especially in tech, stepping in for a founder is hard because the founder has all the credibility from having like birthed that thing. And I had enormous respect for what all three founders have done and all the people before me, like Ravi had done. And so it was this interesting balance of really having a lot of respect for what got us there, but also the recognition that what got us there wasn't the same as what was going to get us to the next level. And that's really why I was brought in, because the playbooks at work to get from point A to point B wasn't going to get us to point C. And so really a lot of what I had to explain to the team was why the playbook was going to change. To give you a concrete example, before me, it was a company that was was obsessed over finding just one level to grow. It was like extreme focus. We're going to find the one thing, we're going to put the entire company behind it. Well, that makes complete sense when you're a startup, but when you have $30 billion in gross transaction volume a year just to go 10%, you need to come up with 3 billion. And so one thing is, I'm going to cut it. You need to do a portfolio of things. And so I had to really explain to the team, like, what we're going to do is do multiple things. And that doesn't mean we're distracted. That means like we are now learning how to work and shoot them at the same time. And our bell water impact by Having all of these different bets on different time horizons, things that we're going to do now, things we're planting the seeds for two years from now, and really bold bets that might pay off in five years. And their minds were kind of exploding because the five year timeframe was like, oh, we can just ignore that. And I was like, no, no, because in five years I still plan on being here and I'm gonna spank myself from like, for having planted those seeds, you know, like, otherwise, it's an endless rat race of trying to grow your business one quarter at a time. That's never what I want to do, and that's certainly not what I learned to do at Facebook. So it was a big transition. And I think when you look at everything we accomplish, whether it's putting new bets in place that have worked, whether it's turning a profit, whether it's going public with a story that inspired investors, like, that all stemmed from that core recognition that's a privilege to change. Ravi, I'm sure you have lots of thoughts on that.

I have mentioned to these guys that I'm very grateful that you're the CEO of the company. And I am very happy when you call, and I'm also very happy when you call with something and I get to be like, man, that sounds really hard. What are you going to do about that? But I. No, no, it. I think it's all very true. And the thing about it that I think people don't always understand is it's ongoing. You know, you've done an amazing job, it's an amazing company, but now it's about what the next five or ten years look like. And because the company has done well now, the bar has just gotten higher. Right. You know, we. It's just this. It's what Shane talks about sometimes of serial success. You know, once you win one, the next thing you have to do is win the next one. And it's just. Just if the bar keeps getting higher. One thing you mentioned Fiji earlier was how Mark treated you when you got sick. You've been public about this and you started Metrodora. But, like, there's a lot to that, you know, like, what did it feel like when you found out that you had this and how did it change you? How did it change your perspective? You know, like, I think it's a very real thing that, you know, you were diagnosed with and deal with.

Yeah, I. False context, guys. Like, I had a very rough pregnancy. I. After my pregnancy, I didn't really recover, but wasn't diagnosed at the time, and then got a little bit better and then got way worse in 2019. And I basically have what's called the neuroimmune condition. So that's intersectional nervous system and immune system. And it was extremely hard because, like, work ethic is everything for me. And, like, the idea that I needed to start taking care of myself and figuring out ways to accommodate my illness was really tough. But a big part of my illness is that my blood pressure drops a lot when I'm standing or sitting for a long time. And reclining is important. And so I remember having to go to Mark, very stressed out, and saying, like, hey, just so you know, like, I'm going to need to, like, find the seats that reclines in meetings. And that doesn't mean I'm not super engaged. That doesn't mean, like, all that. But, like, I need a seat that reclines. And I was, like, so terrified of having this conversation. And it was like, Fiji, like, the only thing you need is a seat that we find. And he's like, let's. Let's go find a lounge chair somewhere. And I literally, like, spent, like, all of the annual reviews in the lounge chair. And people were like, what are you doing? I was like, I'll explain later. But. And even during my pregnancy, I was on bed rest for five months. Like, absolute bed rest. But I worked through it, and I couldn't. I presented the entire plan for Facebook Live, which became a huge success. Like, from my bed to a room full of execs on Zoom.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Talk about that. You came up with an entire business plan while you're on bed rest? That is ridiculous.

I was on full bed rest because my daughter was going to come out premature, so I had to have a surgery during my pregnancy anyways. I was. Was. I was on street bed rest. I literally cannot stand otherwise. Baby's coming out. And so I. I made this contraption. I literally have a picture where my mom created a mistake, a contraction, where, like, the camera, like, the computer would be above my face. And I presented the plan for Facebook Live to the entire management team of, like, Facebook one in my bed with a giant belly and a computer above my head, which is totally ridiculous in the hindsight. And I really, like. I really felt like I needed to continue working otherwise I'm driven myself crazy, like, worrying about pregnancy. And it was the same thing when I was diagnosed with my disease, where I was like, I want to continue, like, doing the stuff I love. And it's interesting Because a lot of people told me, like, well, like, that's kind of crazy. You should take time off. Like, Mark was so generous. He was like, even if you take a year off, like, just like, go take care of yourself. We'll pay you. And I'm like, you don't have understand I would never do that. Like. And he was like, why? I'm like, goes back to my grandpa. There's no way I would be paid to do nothing. I'm sorry. And he was like, yo, messed up. But you know, like when, when I got sick, it's like a chronic illness, there's no cure. And I really had to figure out, okay, like, that's completely life changing, so how do I handle that? And a lot of it was realizing that it was already the cure, taking away a lot of my physical joy, because there's a lot of joy in being in a healthy body. But I refuse to have this disease take away my, like, the rest of my joy and the rest of my ambition. And so a lot of what I wanted to do at that point was one, figure out how I could turn that into a positive and create a company that could find the cure. And second, like, figure out I can, I can still contribute and like lose a lot of accommodations, but I still do the things that I believe are like my core contributions to the world. And so it was really a turning point because I was, that was a challenge. That was, that didn't have an end in sight. Like even, you know, the pregnancy was really hard, but I was like, okay, at some point this ends, but chronic illness messes with your head because it's like, there's no cure and you have it for life. And therefore I had to really reset and thinking, I am going to continue living my life on my own terms and I'm going to try to figure out how to make accommodations for what this disease creates. And then I created the Master Institute, which is really the realization that there's very little data on this condition. And that's why biotech and pharma don't invest in new drugs for this condition. Even though they are not rare at all, they affect millions of people. And so we decided to create an institute that will both care for patients in the way they should be cared for and, and enroll them in research so that we could accelerate the path to cures.

Fiji did it change your when? Not that these are comparable, but when I hurt my leg and. And again, was I confined to a wheelchair and had this metal contraption bolted to my leg it took a long time, like, to. What you're talking about, I think, to. To. For me to accept my new normal. Right. That my leg was never going to be the same and I had lost a lot of ability permanently. And I think time only heals with that. But there was definitely a. A pretty big perspective change when I got back able to do things. Like I. There was a gratefulness that I had for heavy things, even that before were heavy. And I. You didn't. You weren't grateful for them. And it's a word that I just constantly. I, I say, I write down when I get to do things. And I don't know if that. If that resonates at all for. For, you know, both things. Trying to find your new normal as you go forward and then obviously the opportunity to get to.

To.

To do the, you know, these hard. These crazy, challenging things like, you know, obviously lead instacart to into the future. Obviously, while dealing with this, it resonates so much.

And I'll tell you, I was listening to your episode and tearing up hearing some of your story because obviously, very different. But it was. I can, I can relate to so much of that. I think on the. The acceptance front, because I'm a fighter. It took me a lot of time because I was like, I will just fight that thing and I will win. And then I realized, oh, this isn't something you fight. You can't fight this. And I realized I was actually wasting a lot of my creative energy trying to fight this thing that was unfavorable. And when I realized, oh, acceptance is not giving up. Acceptance is not losing. Acceptance is like actually getting to a point of neutrality where you can see the facts clearly and deal with the situation. It changed a lot of my playbook for high, you know, react to these situations. And then, you know, as I started getting better, getting some symptoms under control. It's exactly what you're saying. Every minute thing that I could do was, you know, wonderful. And it allowed me to really find joy in small things. Like, I still remember vividly there was this period of time where I was really sick. I was like, mostly bedridden. And it was during Christmas, and my daughter loves Christmas. And she was like, mom, can you come play with me? And I, I couldn't. Like, initially it was a horrible day. And I kept thinking, like, what is the minimum thing that I can do today to find some joy? And I unbox these, you know, like, chocolate balls that when you put them in our chocolate, they melt with marshmallow. In the middle. And I. I went to my daughter and I'm like, mama's five minutes. But let's do something fun. Let's do the marshmallow. And to this day, the joy on this little girl's face, because who doesn't love tiny marshmallows in our chocolate was a moment. I was like, two minutes in clock time, but lifetime of memories. And now it's a ritual that we have every Christmas. And I share that very ridiculous story because I think sometimes we gloss over all those moments and we think that our entire life has to be perfect for us to be happy. But, like, sometimes just those two minutes can have such a massive impact, and it has made me very acutely aware of the opportunities to have just two minutes of joys that stack up.

That's a good story.

Fiji.

The reason I was just. Man, I'm envisioning that.

So you obviously have an amazing growth mindset. You learn from your grandfather, from your parents. How do you apply that? Today, obviously, the leader of a tech company, it's nothing but growth mindset, right? The second you think you figure it out, guess what you've lost. So what are those lessons of growth mindsets that you're trying to apply to your colleagues and to your executive team and to your. All the way on down to the.

The.

The personal shopper. How. How do you relay your growth mindset to your entire, entire universe?

So I think about it is like, it's all about curiosity and learning. And in fact, I put myself in situations where I know I'm going to learn. Like, leaving the Facebook app was part. It was the job of a lifetime in many ways. Instacart was smaller. It was like 3,000 people at Facebook. I was managing 7,000. But. But when I came into the job, I realized, like, oh, there's so much to learn. Like, I am a great product leader, but, like, being a CEO requires understanding finance and capital allocation. And so I picked up the phone, then talked to Rami, like, every day with a dumbass question. And I think there's power in having the humility to ask the dumb questions because it was incredibly gracious. And I learned so much about things that I didn't know before that ended up, like having actually a huge impact on the company because we did a lot of things on the financial side that were very creative that others hadn't done because I understood finance from first principles, not even from, like, having, you know, seeing that a company, but really learning it as, like, first principles. And I do the same Thing with my management team. We have these dinners with my management team where I tell them what I think that, like, special magic is, and then I ask them to share how they do that with the group. And that's not always, like, the obvious things. You know, my chief communications officer, obviously, she's good at cars, but more importantly, she gets, like, enormous consistency and inspiration out of her team, which is something everybody can learn from. So I, like, encourage her to share our playbook with the rest of the table. And I do the same for everyone, which I. There's two things everyone learns, but also people feel seen because, like, you now, like, the entire table kind of looking at them and, like, expecting to understand what makes them so special. So it actually creates really deep bonds when you do something like that. And I always say, you know, surround yourself by people who see the magic in you and pour fuel on it and do the same for others. And I think that ends up being a really interesting way to cultivate your growth. Mindset is like, every person you encounter, what's the magic in them? What can you learn from them? And really try to have a conversation while you extract that. There's this great book from David Brooks where he explained that most people in a conversation are just trying to show off, and so they talk and talk and talk, and there's just very few people who are like, hey, the person across from me, so interesting. What can I learn from them? And those conversations are a million times more interesting, a million times more bonding, even, and create the ability to be truly seen. So that's very much how I need the teams that I connect with my teams.

Why is that hard for people to be curious in your experience? Yeah, I agree 100% with you. Why. Why are you a rarity? Why is this. Why is this difficult for folks?

I think ego gets in the way, and I think it's hard to say. I don't know. You know, like, there was a part of me when I was calling Ravi who was like, damn, I'm CEO of this company. I probably should know that. Like, you know, and, you know, like, I was like, yeah, that's a little bit embarrassing. But, like, what's more embarrassing is to actually not love that. And so to me, it was like, the. The. The wish to be the best took over the embarrassment and the ego that sometimes get in the way. And I found that, interestingly, the most ambitious people tend to be the best with that skill set because they're like, I want to figure it out. I want, like. Because I want to get to the next step. I'm not going to let you go get in the way. I'm gonna like ask the right question questions.

It's hard, I'm sure for Fiji to answer what makes her so rare on this note. But I would tell you, I think, Shane, there's also an abundance mindset that Fiji has of, hey, listen, it's not zero sum on the knowledge, right? I know you guys know this. Fiji's taught me so much about so many things. But it actually opened the door for me to ask her a bunch of questions that were hard for me because she had asked me some questions that were hard for her. And all of a sudden then we can both learn a lot. And there's this incredible thing that comes. But I also think what happens? And you tell me Fiji, but like, I think that you're getting better when you ask your team to share their magic, right? You're getting better. Each of them is getting better when they have their magic shared with each other and it's all benefiting this team rather than you trying to act like you have all the answers all the time. You know, people actually ask me a lot because I always say Fiji is one of the best CEOs in the world. I truly in my heart believe that, that. And then people ask, but you know, what is her superpower? What is it? And I'm always saying the same thing. I was like, she just keeps learning. If there's something she doesn't know, she will go figure it out and she will understand it in real detail. And I think that that mindset is sort of evergreen. But I do think it comes, you tell me, Fiji, I think it comes from this abundance idea of there's not a limited amount of knowledge, there's not a limited amount of winning that can happen. You know, if we just lift everyone, we can do it.

I've had the privilege of working with a coach, Katya Merison, for 10 years. And our entire kind of philosophy is like, how do you get to be in this abundance mindset as far as long as possible? All of us go into scarcity at some point where we just don't see the solutions. But the real question is, how do you get yourself back emotionally, mentally, creatively into a mindset of abundance where the solutions become obvious to you. And I have learned over time how to manage myself so that I can be in this mindset for as long as possible. Like if you look at my day, I mean back to back meetings non stop. So if I carry all of the stress from meeting number one all the way to meeting number 10, by the time it's 6pm I'm gonna end up biting someone. And so instead I really have to manage, you know, like the fact that yes, I need to be like my absolute best every time I show up in front of someone, every time I show up in front of a team. And that means every time I dip a little bit in energy, every time I'm slightly frustrated about something which happens to all of us, it's like, okay, what do I need? Maybe I need a five minute break. That's going to be just like resetting. Maybe I need to start living my body. Maybe I need and really getting myself back to this mindset of abundance. And that sounds super basic when you talk about it, but actually doing it every day, all day forces you at some point to have that be your default mode. And that gives you just a massive edge when you're able to do that.

One other thing that I think, and we talk about this a lot guys about like leaders and you know, particularly in the business world, a lot of times leaders think that the way to compensate your people is only through money. And I think that it's. And then they're surprised when it's unsatisfying or, you know, not enough. And I think that one of the other things that happens with the way Fiji treats her team and people around her and you know, whomever is she realizes, I think that like so much of what matters to people is being respected. So much of what matters to people is being seen. So much of what matters people is getting to spend time, you know, solving problems. And so there's just this enormous goodness that comes from the respect of. I see that you have something to teach me. Let's talk about it. Hey, we have this problem, let's go solve it. And of course the money is an important element, but it's insufficient, right? It's like necessary but not sufficient. And I think that one of the things that you do so well Fiji is, I think that you have people feel like they're doing great work and that they matter and that they're part of something that's going to solve something. I think that's a recognition that there's a lot more to this. You know, Alex, you know how Steve Young talked about like the how good can I be? I think Fiji helps people think about how good can they be. And I think there's enormous value in that.

I also really treat them like partners. Back to your question, Shane. I'm like, you know, how do you make sure that you're not just seen as a big boss? Because I do that for them. I also tell them, I need you to do that for me. When you get to, like, the level I'm at, you don't get that much feedback. Like, you know, my board is great. Like, I have Rami on it. Like, they don't see me in action every day. So, like, the best feedback I'm going to get is actually from people I manage, and they need to be comfortable giving me that feedback so that I can be at my best. And, like, I remember at Facebook, when I was leading video, we were trying to launch this, like, very big video destination, and it wasn't working. And I was super stressed. Like, really stressed. And I had a product review where I wasn't doing what Ravi was saying. I was just telling the team, like, guys, like, come on, this is not working. Like, this isn't helping. Like, really. But not in a. In a way. Like, not in an inspiring way. In a way where, like, my stress was showing. And good news, like, we walk out of the meeting and a woman, Marianne Smith, who had worked for me for years and I adore, stopped me. And she literally just sent one sentence. She was like, I have seen you at your best. This is not your best. We're gonna need your best to win. And walked away. Let me tell you, like, that's much better than the slap in the face.

Whoa.

Okay, like, time to reset. And, like, you know, I'm so grateful for, like, having a, like, trust with a team like that that they can tell you that so that immediately you can adjust. And that's when I realized, okay, like. Like, pressure doesn't make anything particularly better. But really, like, hey, guys, we're not on track. How do we solve the problem together? How can I help? That is fundamentally what gets people out of scarcity. The boss is unhappy. Into abundance. Let's figure out the solutions together. And that's a very, very different mindset.

The ironic part about all of this and even being the vulnerability of asking for help, help and saying, I don't know something, and can you help me? And then even this of being receptive to feedback and sometimes critical and not easy to take, I think is there's. There's just such strength in it. And that's, like, the ironic part, because I think most people feel the opposite is why they don't demonstrate it right? And they're just. And I see just so much strength, obviously, looking at, like, the way you've handled all of these things. I know there's a story behind this, but I don't actually know it. The story of how you and Ravi met, like, what happened there.

So I was on the board of Instacart before becoming CEO, and because I was curious, I definitely wanted to understand the perspective of people who had worked here before. And so I started chatting with Ravi, who provided amazing perspective and really helped me kind of see the business through a new light. And then, which came very close when he was time for me to kind of make the decision to become CEO. And he helped me a great deal in, like, figuring out what I was getting myself into and whether I was actually, you know, the thing that I wanted to do. So very, very, very grateful for him. And then, you know, that was the start of a great friendship, which I think is also, like, why I love business and what I do. Because fundamentally, it's all about people. And you end up with these, like, incredible relationships that start off as, like, this, you know, interaction of business relationship, but then that means so much more.

However it starts, ultimately has to get to trust and respect and has to get to admiration and all those things. And I think that it's rare to find people that you can find all of those in. And I think Fiji is all those things. And I'm very proud that we're friends. But also it's fun to learn from somebody a lot. Like, you know, I have a lot of ambitions too, career wise. And I think that. That, you know, Fiji is somebody I can ask about so many things. And so, Alex, I think the other thing that happened was Fiji was willing to ask and willing to share. And then I think that, you know, all of a sudden a really good friendship blooms. And now, I don't know, I. People always ask how often we talk, and I'm always like, multiple times a week, you know, so it's funny because.

I remember the phone, the first phone call we had, and then Remy asked, who is that? And I was like, well, it's Rami, et cetera. And I remember telling him, I'm sure I'm gonna be friends with that guy. Because in a matter of, like, we talked for 30 minutes. Like, in a matter of 30 minutes, there was already a. Like, there was no posturing. You know, when you meet a lot of people like the first time, it's like a lot of posturing. And between us, there was never that. And when you can get past that very quickly, you can form, like, a deep relationship that's really meaningful quickly It Fiji.

One of the questions we ask everyone is, you know, who are the podcast called Glue Guys, Right? And so, you know, could be glue gals, could be glue people, whatever it might be. Right, but who are the people in your life that are the unsung heroes or the people that really have helped you, who might not be obvious to the outside world?

Well, I'll reiterate. My husband. I mean, again, like, I couldn't do what I do without him, and he stopped working when we had a little girl. And the fact that I can be both the CEO I want to be and the mom I want to be is a huge testament to the infrastructure it creates for me to make that possible. So it's just the real mep. And. And as I mentioned, I think throughout my career, I've had a lot of those people, you being one of them, Ravi. But at Facebook, like I mentioned, well, Cascal, where he's very much not a flashy guy, he's currently leading all of WhatsApp, but most people don't even really know who is, and he prefers it that way. But he's the guy who, behind the scenes, has helped so many careers just nudge people in the right direction, foster that ambition. And. And he always, like, you know, he's one of those people. Whenever I told him, like, hey, I have this, like, great dream. Never laughed at it, never told me it was impossible. Told me, like, how do we figure it out? At some point, I remember I was like, you know, one day I want to be CEO of Fortune 500 companies. And he's like, okay, let's pull up the list. Which one is the easiest one to get? I was like, no, no, I meant Disney. He's like, oh, of course. He's like, find the last one on the list. He's like, of course we're going to go from Disney. But, yes, like, you need people like that who really encourage you. And one last one. I had a teacher back in France who, you know, like, getting into HCC was very, very competitive. And most those kids like tutors and stuff like that, and I didn't. And he sat down with me after class, and any question I had, it was there to help. He would, like, make sure that, you know, I had all the books I needed and all of that and really, really believed in me and encouraged me. And I was the only one from my kind of class to make it to HCC Paris. And, like, that was such a privilege for me, but also, like, I felt like I made him proud, which was was, you know, an even better feeling.

Well, Fiji, I will tell you the. We are so grateful that you spent time with us. You know, I am very grateful for your. Your stewardship of Instacart, but also most importantly, for the example you've set and for your friendship. And we really, really, really had an awesome time. So thank you for spending time with us today.

Now. Thank you guys. It's an honor to be in the presence of legends. So I've learned a lot from listening to your podcast and I'll keep being a fan, so thank you guys.

Nice G. It's is an honor to have you on the show. Our first Glue Gal. Your. Your journey is honestly really inspiring and I just see so much. I see so much strength. Right? And, and it's just, it's. It's so impressive. So thank you for being on with us.

Well, coming from you guys, that means a lot. Thank you guys.